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04-14-2009, 12:03 AM | #1 |
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Bad economy/speed limit=bad news for lake businesses
with the already bad economy and the new speed limit on the lake. I think the local restaurants and gas stations on the lake will def suffer huge losses this summer. I know lots of people that wont be going to dinner by boat any more do to the 25mph limit set at night. there is also a large group of people that are boycotting the lake do to this new law.
I hope the next two years fly by so we can get a more realistic law in place like speed limits in bays like Alton Bay, Paugus bay Ect. weekends only |
04-14-2009, 12:11 AM | #2 |
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I heard/believe that the law is only being active for the 2009 season only. After this year, it is going back to no speed limit on the lake. This year is a probationary/ trial time to see how affective the "law" is to boaters
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04-14-2009, 05:34 AM | #3 | |
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04-14-2009, 07:36 AM | #4 |
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While I'm against the speed limit, I suspect the general economy will have the biggest impact on the local lake economy, and the the speed limit will hardly have any affect. I always felt that the economic arguments against a speed limit were silly.
That said, I have a list of the businesses that support a speed limit, and do avoid spending my money with them. |
04-14-2009, 07:39 AM | #5 |
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I for one would love that list so that my family can make sure we don't support those businesses.
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04-14-2009, 07:50 AM | #6 | |
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I would, however, be interested in seeing that list, Dave. Can you you share it?
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04-14-2009, 08:01 AM | #7 | |
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04-14-2009, 08:18 AM | #8 |
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I probably won't be going out to dinner much by boat, and certainly not to Wolfeboro or Alton (I live in the Weirs). I know of several people who feel the same way...
The problem is @ 25MPH my 26' boat is in transition... its not on plane, the nose is high, stern is squatted and I am pushing some serious water causing a monster wake. The boat absolutely GUZZLES gas at this speed.... I ran some tests last year with GPS, and the SLOWEST I could go without wallowing and coming off plane was 28MPH (GPS)... but this required me to first accellerate up to 34 MPH (GPS), drop the trim tabs, then throttle off to get down to 28 MPH. I doubt I will get a ticket using this method, but technically I would be in violation. If the MP witness me accelerate, they might hit the blues before I get a chance to get the tabs dropped and back off the throttle... I dont really mind a night time speed limit, but 25 is just too low. My thoughts on the daytime limit are well documented! Might be time to invest in radar detector..... Woodsy
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04-14-2009, 08:24 AM | #9 |
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It seems that the problem with the law, especially the nighttime speed limit, is that it was written by NON-BOATERS who do not boat on Winnipesaukee. That is absolutely absolutely ludicrous. If anyone of the nimwits who wrote the law IS a boater than they are a very BAD boater that had no business writing the law in the first place. 25 MPH sounds so warm and fuzzy but for most boats including runabouts such as mine it is almost impossible to do 25 MPH without falling off plane and causing and enormous wake! So are we all to plow around the lake all night causing monster swells?
This is going to be an interesting summer. I am looking forward to all the observations by forum members this summer. |
04-14-2009, 08:35 AM | #10 |
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Publicity
I don't think bad economy or the speed limit is the problem we are facing. I spent winters in CO and I spent the last 2 months on Lake Norman in NC. It is the publicity everyone is hearing that is destroying the reputation of the lake.
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04-15-2009, 02:56 PM | #11 |
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unfortunate timing, no matter how you look at it
I'm a supporter of a speed limit on the Lake (maybe not exactly the bill that's in force now), and I have to say that it's really unfortunate that the speed limit has gone into effect during this severe economic downturn.
As this thread has already demonstrated, when the renewal of the bill is up for discussion, it's gonna be impossible to figure out how much of any downturn in business was due to the speed limit vs. other factors, especially the economy. The arguments will be heated on both sides, with no real factual basis...just lots of opinions, coming fast and furious. Here's an idea...how about postponing the start of the two years of the current speed limit until the recession is over? I almost hate to suggest it, because I know that some folks will try to leverage this into killing the law altogether, but this might make sense all the way around. Oh, and Dave...thanks for posting the listing of businesses that have supported the speed limit bill. I'll be sure to patronize them |
04-15-2009, 03:11 PM | #12 | |
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Although I disagree with your position on the limits themselves you do make a good point that it will be difficult to determine the economic downturn with the other factors going on in the world. However I have to ask even if there was no economic downturn, How could we attribute any losses directly to the limits? I am an opponent of them, but there will be no concreate evidence to be used either way. It will always be a matter of opinion. There are certain industries geared towards faster boats i.e. poker runs, gas etc. However all boats still burn gas and all boats are welcome in poker runs so again it will be speculative to attribute any loss directly due to the limits. These could be offset by more cruisers on the lake for example... I am not condoning the limits at all. I think they will hurt a whole lot more then they will help, however I don't know if there will be an actual way to meter this. My only thought is if the state would release how many go fast boats i.e. certain length, certain H.P. were registered this year opposed to past years. This again though could stem back to the overall economy one could argue. To break it down I think that the discussion is valid and worth while because it keeps people thinking and trys to improve the lakes region the way we see fit. The only way we will be able to determine the impact will be from discussing what we have personally seen and heard. Through those observations we are free to form our own opinions and voice them come 2011. So overall how ever you feel on the limits it is good to point out anything or anyone you have seen that has changed their plans due to them.
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04-15-2009, 07:37 PM | #13 | |
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OCDACTIVE:
You don't put forth a very convincing argument that the speed limit will negatively impact the economy in a meaningful way for one simple reason, by your own admission you just purchased a go fast boat with full knowledge that there is a speed limit....... Quote:
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04-15-2009, 07:48 PM | #14 | |
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Either way the lakes region will be adversely effected as well as the state of NH because I will be leaving half the time. I mentioned earlier that it will be very difficult to measure the actual impact and all we can do is share our plans. Well chaulk me up as money lost, for I am going elsewhere the majority of the time directly due to the limits and NOT due the overall economy for I have decided not to participate in the slowdown.
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04-15-2009, 08:06 PM | #15 |
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Not necessarily so. As has been pointed out before, many who have left the lake precisely because of the GFBL's may find the lake more enjoyable and therefore return. I myself plan to boat more, and especially on weekends. The net overall economic impact might well be quite positive in spite of your departure.
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04-15-2009, 08:10 PM | #16 | |
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04-15-2009, 08:16 PM | #17 | |
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You will need probably two or three smaller boats to make up for that, realatively speaking. This would cause more congestion and perhaps cause more people not to go. A few things I know about the GFB and their owners: Normally (there are always exceptions to the rule with any group) but Normally we only go fast when it is safe to do so, we normally know what the hell we are doing in a boat, and usually have to spend more to do it. So overall I feel the economy and lake itself will suffer.
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04-15-2009, 08:32 PM | #18 | |
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04-15-2009, 08:38 PM | #19 | |
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True.... Only time will tell but I think your conclusions are a little too hopefull. Smaller boats use less fuel. Less expensive to registar and carry less people (normally) Canoes and Kayaks don't normally go to lunch as a group. We can only wait and guess what may happen with the smaller groups you mention. But I can speak for myself as well as many other friends who have GFB and the lake is not going to be on their priority list. I love the lake so I will definately be there some of the time because my family is there.. But I know I would have spent a whole lot more then I will be which hurts the economy. I will not guess or speculate as to what other "groups" of individuals may or may not do. I just know what I and my friends will do and that is contribute to economys elsewhere unfortunately.
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04-15-2009, 09:39 PM | #20 |
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OCDACTIVE you have done a wonderful job presenting very valid points in this forum without dismissing anyone's points as pathetic or ridiculous etc. I applaud your methods of posting rational clear concise information. Everyone is indeed entitled to their opinions and it is clear that you have been borderline ridiculed by some members of the forum yet you have remained steadfast and consistent in your demeanor. I truly applaud you for that. Regardless of my absolute agreement on your positions I take offense to those who dismiss your/our concerns with regard to how we might enjoy our vessels during the day and at night. Mind you I am not an owner of a craft that could even carry your wake. However I am told I should not even go out at night because I want to do 35-40MPH. Oh well. I hope our paths cross someday this summer and we'll chat it up. Good luck with the new boat.
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04-16-2009, 05:44 AM | #21 |
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We will be out there
Regardless of speed limits (or no speed limits), we will be out on the lake for our usual 45-50 engine hours and countless floating hours. I hope all of you enjoy the upcoming boating season as much as my family and friends do!
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04-15-2009, 09:14 PM | #22 | |
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04-15-2009, 08:24 PM | #23 | |
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Just making a point... Economeys of scale.... It will take a lot more of them to make up for a few GFBs...
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04-15-2009, 03:43 PM | #24 | |
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In the current economic, energy and environmental climate I personally don't understand why anyone would buy a huge, noisy, high-speed, gas-guzzling boat, especially if they know about the 45 MPH speed limit. This is as crazy as the soccer moms using their enormous Excursions and Escalades to do errands. I don't want to outlaw them, but what are these people thinking? |
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04-16-2009, 06:42 AM | #25 | |
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How people want to spend there money is totally up to them. Just because they purchase a boat that is outside of what you deem as realistic in todays economy doesn't mean it isn't something someone else can not afford. Also just because there is a limit in NH does not mean there is one up and down the east coast where I personally plan on using mine.
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04-16-2009, 07:19 AM | #26 |
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Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
I am neither a proponent nor an opponent of the speed limit law on the lake. I would have rather seen a NOISE limit rather than a speed limit introduced and enforced. I know, I know, there IS already a noise limit, I guess that's why I can hear some boats from Eagle Island all the way to the No Wake Zone in Meredith, and then ALL the way back. But that's another issue.
As far as the speed limit effect on the ecomomy around the lake, I think after a very brief adjustment period, if any, it will thrive as usual. For every go-fast boat owner who will opt to launch in the ocean, ( where some will argue that's where they belong ) I predict that at least one additional GSBQ (Go Slow Be Quiet ) boat will launch in the lake. I hardly believe that any lake accessed restaurant will fold or be negatively impacted as a result of a lower speed limit at night. It wasn't that long ago that the heated discussion of the day was the smoking ban in restaurants and bars. Net effect of that law was that more folks found that going to a restaurant or bar to be a more pleasurable experience. Could the same thing happen as a result of the speed limits on the lake? |
04-16-2009, 07:32 AM | #27 |
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About a month ago, the Citizen had an article about the Marine Patrol's new, public information signs designed to inform the boating public about 'you know what' on Lake Winnipesaukee. Apparently, the MP will be nailing up some public dock signs, designed to let the boating public learn and understand the new boating law.
As I recall, at the time of the article one month ago, the signs were still on the drawing board. I believe the state has its own sign shop in Concord. Winnipesaukee ice-out is here, so where are all the new signs? Us boaters want to be educated!
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04-16-2009, 07:55 AM | #28 |
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Bear in mind, many people come to the Lakes Region for things other than boating. Maybe DRED has a chart on this?
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04-16-2009, 08:11 AM | #29 |
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Question....
Just a question that seems appropriate to ask at this time.
Not looking to start trouble, or stir the pot. This is really just a question I would like answered by someone who knows more than I. I've only been boating for a 4 or 5 years, but get out often enough, and know the lake pretty good. While I'm not usually in a rush, when heading from Meredith over to Wolfboro, I'll push the boat to it's limit, which is 45/48 MPH. And this seems like a decent speed. My question: Even at 35/40 MPH, things seem to be moving pretty quickly...how can this possibly be a safe speed at night? I can't imagine...unless it is a clear, clear night, under a full moon....but even then. At 35 MPH, at night, couldn't you come up on something unexpected too quickly to make a correction? I'd be curious to hear from night boaters. Do you folks actually travel at 35/40(pre-speed limit) under the cover of darkness...and is it truly safe? Maybe my experience level is not what it should be, which is why it seems excessive. |
04-16-2009, 08:19 AM | #30 |
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04-16-2009, 08:37 AM | #31 |
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I normally do not, but on full moon nights, with clear skies, it is easy and safe to go 35+ with excellent visibility. Really depends on how much light is available. On pitch-black nights, 25 would be ludicrous. I can remember cruising slowly across Sebago Lake in Maine one night when it was clouldy and moonless. We literally could not see anything that was not lit up by humans. I kept it to idle speed and used GPS/compass to navigate to my overnight anchorage. When I got to the anchorage (a waypoint on the GPS), I was <300 feet from shore (a nice beach) and could not see it at all.
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04-16-2009, 08:38 AM | #32 |
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I think your going to see a very quiet (pun intended) numbers wise boating season...
The economy is in shambles, unemployment is at levels not seen since the early 80's and the government is printing & spending money faster than the ink can dry. Have we bottomed out yet? We might be getting close to the bottom, but we are not there yet.... then we are gonna bounce and have the inflation issue to deal with.... Prime @ 9.5%? Its coming! While the few, and I mean FEW big Hi-Po boats that wont be on the lake won't be missed by the general public. You can bet they will be missed by some of the businesses on the lake. In this economy every $$ counts, even more so if your livelyhood depends on a a seasonal business. Go ask the Naswa if they are going to miss the OuterLimits Factory crew this summer... 10+ guys, 5 rooms, and god only knows how much money they spend on food & drink entertaining thier clients.... just a small sample, but those guys came up 2-3 weekends a summer. It was touted during the GREAT SPEED LIMIT DEBATE and most recently by others in this thread, that the lack of Hi-Perf boats would make the lake safer and thus more Average Joe family boaters would be more likely to visit Lake Winni. They might have had a valid point except the economy took a nosedive... Average Joe the family boater is worried... worried about his job, worried about his house, worried about taxes, worried about paying his bills, worried about the price of gas. Luxuries like summers on the lake are being shortened to weekends or daytrips and in some cases tossed out all together. Where is the Average Joe going to put his boat in the water? Park his trailer? Ames Farm is closed because of a neighbor dispute, there is no public launch in Laconia, You need to be a resident of Gilford to use Glendale, and Meredith has a very small ramp and charges a fee... and FLL was right on with the weather... bad economy and bad weather would be a disaster for the seasonal business.... Woodsy PS: I cant believe i just agreed with FLL on something! I better go get a $1 McChicken!
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04-16-2009, 11:46 AM | #33 |
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Safe night boating
Originally Posted by sa meredith
Do you folks actually travel at 35/40(pre-speed limit) under the cover of darkness...and is it truly safe? Maybe my experience level is not what it should be, which is why it seems excessive. IN response to the saftey of night boating.... Yes you can safely navigate at night at speed. We have a very accurate GPS and radar that we use anytime we boat. One night we come to a dead stop when the radar showed a "target" that we cound not see with our eyes. We shined the search light and saw a flock of ducks (not wearing the correct bathing caps). We have a double check process before we bring the boat up to speed. One will keep a visual watch and the other will watch the equipment. With the right state of mind and focus you can definitely navagate safely at speed in the dark. I would not trust this approach during fog or rain. You need to be proficient with the equipment to understand the limitations. I would not trust only one set of eyes. Personal perspective: Our boat travels well at 28 MPH and hits 45 at WOT. This is going to be our 10 th season on the lake. We have not come in contact with rocks nor come close to an incident. We ahve traveled the lake many nights in all conditions. In spite of the many spectacular stories or accidents described in this great forum we enjoy all the diverse machinery fast or slow that navigate the lake. There is still enough lake to find crouds or seclusion. I don't get wigged out when a "rookie" buzzes closer than 150 feet as long as I see they are in control of their boat. Attitude seems to be the greatest restriction to the enjoyment the area offers. We are not rich nor are we poor. We find the weekends on the Lake to be the best "investment" in mental health that we can control and will continue until some other group of self serving ill-informed polititions take away personal choice and freedom. |
04-16-2009, 12:37 PM | #34 |
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I believe a much more insidious component to the economy, as it pertains to boating, is ethanol in the gasoline. This stuff will wreak havoc on boats. A buddy of mine bought a NEW boat last year and althought Mercruiser states it is safe to use ethanol gasoline in the engine, the boat manufacturer WILL VOID the warranty for the fuel system ie; gas tank, if ethanol fuel is used in the boat. I hope there are marinas on the lake that will sell non-ethanol gas. If not, my 1986 wellcraft will be as useless as you-know-what on a bull, without a retrofit that will be more costly than the value of my boat. For those who think Marine Stabil will prevent these problems.......NOT! Marine Stabil will prevent phase separation. It will do nothing to prevent the ethanol from digesting your fuel system.
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04-16-2009, 01:45 PM | #35 |
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I take it you have a fiberglass gas tank? If so, I think you are truly hosed regarding fuel supply. That sucks.
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04-16-2009, 02:05 PM | #36 |
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Me too Woodsy!
I'm not going to get into the SL debate but I will say that FLL has spoken to the biggest factor for the lakes region money machine. #1 is the weather. #2 is the economy. Even being very vocal against the SL, I believe the economic angle is way down the list.
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04-16-2009, 01:51 PM | #37 |
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nightrider, ethanol in marina fuels has been discussed in another thread. I know Channel Marine was selling ValvTect Marine Fuel last year. I went to the ValvTect website and they had a locator to find all dealers selling their product. According to their website, Channel Marine, West Alton Marina (West Alton) and Lanes End Marina (Melvin Village) are all selling ValvTect fuel on Winnipesaukee. I have no idea what the price differential is between their fuel and regular ethanol-laced fuel, either at a marina or on the street.
Here's the Valvtect website, http://www.valvtect.com/. There is also a ValvTect dealer on Ossipee Lake at Ossipee Lake Marina. |
04-20-2009, 09:55 AM | #38 |
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ethanol
WB, In reading the info on VT's web site, their fuel appears to be an additive supplanted mixture, still starting off with ethanol based gasoline, mayby I'm wrong but that looks to be what they are saying.
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04-17-2009, 10:45 AM | #39 | |
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Accurate GPS?
I aggree with NoRegrets on all his points. However I have not found an accurate GPS. I have seen a number of GPS that are off as much as 300 feet. I've been on the lake for 50 years and I see more 'Captain Boneheads' than I want. I thought the boater's safety course will reduce this number.
On the intercoastal, I have very good luck in using the combination of lorance and GPS. Lorance is far more accurate than GPS. Radar and the new AIS is a godsend when visibility is poor or does nor exist. Thank you NoRegrets. You are speaking from experience. Quote:
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04-19-2009, 06:22 AM | #40 | |
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What am I missing?
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04-19-2009, 06:37 AM | #41 |
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I am assuming he is talking about Loran-C (Long Range Aid to Navigation). This was the predecessor to GPS technology. Growing up on the commercial party boats on the ocean in Hampton this was the technology that was used to plot fishing spots, or direction in general. No mapping like GPS, just coordinates.
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04-18-2009, 08:52 PM | #42 | |
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As an avid fisherman who spends countless hours fishing on the lake, I can assure you, that there is no loss of morons that will buzz you, WOT, within casting distance between boats. One morning, just outside Wolfeboro Bay, at about 8 AM , we had a caravan of 6-7 cigarette boats pass within 100' of us trolling 200-300 yards off shore. There was absolutely no reason those boats had to be within 400 yards of us , as we were not even close to the boating lane. Those operators had absolutely no respect for anyone and I believe did it on purpose , I only wished the MP could of witnessed this spectacle. While maybe you could care less about what I do, why shouldn't I be able to safely enjoy the lake, as well as everyone else. While I do not condemn all boaters on the lake, there are a number that shouldn't come back and hopefully they won't , they won't be a loss or missed, they ruin it for all. Unfortunately, this law is undoubtabley in response to many complaints from boaters and non boaters, in regards to at least a small number of jerks. I don't believe for one second, that this law will destroy business around the lake, the destuction of the National Economy will be the culprit. |
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04-16-2009, 08:23 AM | #43 |
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04-20-2009, 12:05 PM | #44 | |
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Speed Limits on lakes!!!!!!!
I don't want you to take this the wrong way but: Although we also have motorized boats(A Couple)and we like to speed around like everyone else(We at least slowdown for smaller boats, its common courtesy), I also have a canoe and a kayak (Which also have long histories on the lake-Longer history than motor boats come to think about it)and I can tell you that there definitely SHOULD be speed limits on certain areas of the lakes, I don't know how many times we have been out there in one of the smaller boats or canoes and some A-HOLE in a big cabin cruiser leaving a 3-4 foot wake blows by us at top speed many times almost capsizing us because they don't have any respect for the other people on the lake in smaller boats, even when near shore, Talk about road rage!!! you have no idea!!! My young nephew was up with us a few summers back on one of the occasions when this has happened and it scared him so bad he made us take him to shore and hasn't wanted to go out since, so yeah there should be speed limits in certain areas and if I ever meet up with one of these morons at the boat ramp then they may wish the hell they had slowed down instead of laughing about swamping some canoe who has just as much right to be out there on the lake as they do, if you don't believe me then try going out there in a canoe sometime and you may feel differently about the speed limits. Not all boaters are that way but there enough idiots out there to make up for the good people. COMMON SENSE GOES A LONG WAY.....One idiot even told me when I caught up to him and confronted him that he was second generation on the lake so that gave him the right to do whatever he wanted,...(Well my family has been in New England since 1622 but that doesn't give me more rights than anyone else,just the same rights).D.G.-Northeast Electric Quote:
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04-20-2009, 12:11 PM | #45 |
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P.s.
And yes you are right, I dont know what the economy has to do with speed limits, common sense boater safety should dictate the speed limits. & we have no problem with speeding around in boats, we just wish people would slow down a little when approaching smaller watercraft.
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04-20-2009, 01:33 PM | #46 | |
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My boat's wake at 45-50 MPH My boat's wake at 30-35 MPH My boat's wake at 15-20 MPH |
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04-20-2009, 02:15 PM | #47 |
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Considering the economy and the SL rules, I will be boating more this year during the day, but less at night.
I'm retired and lucky to be on a fixed (non-government ) pension. Since gas prices will be a lot lower this year than they were last year, I'll most likely boat 20% to 30% more overall. As far as night time boating, I will take short trips in displacement mode, but I can't get on plane under 25 MPH without a big wake due to transition, even with tabs down, so long distance night time trips are now effectively banded for me. If gas spikes upward, my boating will spike downward. R2B |
04-20-2009, 02:24 PM | #48 |
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Hey Dave R. Totally off topic but love the pics. Getting me excited for this coming year!!! Your boat looks like it rides very well.
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04-21-2009, 07:23 AM | #49 |
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Thanks! It does ride well, IMO, for a 25 foot boat. I really like the 24 degree deadrise, and the ability to stay on plane comfortably at well under 25 MPH. Nice combination for rough days. There is a downside though, when I need to go somewhere less than 39" deep the deep V design and tail-heavy attititude at displacement speeds puts the props down in the mud and rocks. Fortunately U-joints are only 11 bucks each and easy to swap, I have no qualms about trimming way up at idle speed and changing U-joints every couple of years.
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04-20-2009, 02:28 PM | #50 |
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Gosh darn it Dave, there ya go again! Trying to make a point with facts, and now even pictures. But aside from your boat, those big cabin cruisers are a horror story when plowing. I usually deliberate for a couple of minutes before deciding how to take the wake, or just get the heck out of there.
I doubt any conclusions can be drawn from this summer. The economy is bad, life is different for many people. The "intent" of the law is well known in private circles, and they are probably spot on. However, there are many GF boats over on Lake George, where they strictly enforce the laws, and know exactly who their targets are. Maybe the point being, the boaters love the lake more than their boat's performance? I have no idea really. |
04-21-2009, 07:29 AM | #51 | |
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04-21-2009, 02:51 PM | #52 | |
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But a 24 degree vee, Oh to have those back in my arsenal. |
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04-22-2009, 05:33 AM | #53 | ||||
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Disclosures, please...
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Is your photo a fair representation of a Lake Winnipesaukee boating environment? Fess-up...you know the rules here about "other" bodies of water. |
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04-22-2009, 08:39 AM | #54 | |
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Are you stating that because you insinuate that the picture might not have been taken on Winnipesaukee that it is not a valid example of what it is claimed to be, that higher speeds generally produce smaller wake? This thread is so far afield at this point that a picture of someone golfing on the moon would be a legit addition to the argument. We posted pictures of Spock on another thread and I don't think there have been any Vulcans on Lake Winnipesaukee either. This thread has become tedious. The original purpose to discuss the impact on the economy was a thin shield over discussing the speed limit again, a pointless exercise right now. No one can possibly predict how business will be this summer and even at the end of the year will not be able to tell what if any the speed limit contributed to the final effect. We all had our fun speculating. This turkey is done. Don, you suggested that you had your finger on the close button. I vote for you to press it. |
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04-22-2009, 08:52 AM | #55 |
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Again I disagree on the close. I think many valid points have been discussed. There have been those who have strayed off course a bit (no pun intended ) but we have done well on keeping them to the discussion of the economy in relation to SL's.
Whether anyone agrees that the economy will be effected or not it is up to them if they want to discuss it. I personally feel it definately will be but it will be very hard to calculate. But I think people have the right to voice their own opinions on the matter. Personally I feel that there are many people who do not want to see how it actually will effect the economy because it will hurt there own agenda come 2 years from now. Having people aware of the situation due to discussions like this only helps determine the outcome. just my 2 cents.
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04-22-2009, 09:26 AM | #56 | |
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OK try this ....
Quote:
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04-22-2009, 10:03 AM | #57 | |
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Determining the effect will be very difficult, as I have stated before, because the data can not be directed directly at the speed limits. What I mean is how do we determine or estimate the lost revenue from a go fast boater that does not come to the lakes region. I don't think any data was collected before the SL so it is hard to shape a comparrison. What I do know and can directly attribute to the SL is those people who have posted here and on other sites how they will not be coming to the lake this year due to the SL. I have spoken with at least a dozen friends who had enjoyed the lake, are not hurting $ wise, and now will be spending their hard earned dollars elsewhere. What I have also noticed is that many people say this will be offset by the "many paddlers" who had felt unsafe and now will visit the lake. However, I have not seen or heard from this "large group" of individuals who have avoided the lake all these years and now will be coming. But to draw a specific conclusion it will be very hard to differentiate between the down economy and the SLs. One thing for certain is that although it may not be a huge loss in comparrison to the entire economy it will just be another straw that may break the camels back. In my own opinion adding insult to injury.
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04-22-2009, 10:08 AM | #58 |
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Sorry to call you out specifically, but sa meredith and jeffk, it seems you guys are the only ones not enjoying the thread. May I suggest just not participating?
Totally your right to however.. Happy to have you. I just think it is everyones right to voice their thoughts whether you agree with them or not. I think that since the SL's just took place, discussing if people have changed their plans due to them is a direct effect on the economy. By discussing these plans is the only way we will know if it is effecting the lakes region. I just don't know what people are trying to hide. Flame away
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04-22-2009, 10:23 AM | #59 |
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Back to the economic factor....
There is no doubt in my mind that the factors contributing to a decline in boating last year, not only on Winni, but boating in general in New Hampshire were the economy, fuel prices and the weather.
This year gas prices have dropped significantly, and we don't know what the weather will bring. But anyone that doesn't think the economy is the greatest detriment to boating in general and tourism specifically is just ignoring the obvious. The speed limit issue? While we play insider baseball here another fact is it just simply doesn't apply to most folks, and I bet a lot of the transient boating population gives it little thought, as with most boating regulations. Will there be some folks that vote with their feet this year? Perhaps. But I am looking at the other sign of the coin. I currently have a 20 footer and boat with several friends over at Ossipee in the same length range. None of us have ventured over to Winni for several years as we are only up on weekends and have not wanted to deal with the foolishness. But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out. Just my thoughts. In closing I also understand JeffK and others concerns about this thread. I am very close but not yet ready to cast my vote for Don for closure because it is obvious to me that there are several posters here with very thinly veiled objectives. Maybe the dark side of me is waiting to say "I told you so"..... You can't fool and old fool..... |
04-22-2009, 11:22 AM | #60 | |
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What I have found disagreeable with some of the recent posts is the " I'm going to take my bat and ball and go home" mentality. |
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04-22-2009, 11:28 AM | #61 | |
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Just playing devils advocate but as you pointed out that several families on 20 footers may offset the one GFB, but now isn't that going to cause a safety issue as far as congestion. For the economy it would be great, but with things the way they are I doubt that "several" families have the extra $$ to offset. Anyway just making polite conversation.. I agree with you on most aspects.
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04-22-2009, 10:25 AM | #62 | |
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Skip...
I agree with you that the economy is the biggest elephant in the room! However HB-847 does nothing to effect the big cruisers throwing big wakes. While there might be less hi-speed boat traffic. There will be the huge wakes thrown by the big cruisers... Bang me a PM when you & the guys are heading over this way and we can meet up! Quote:
There is no easily quantifiable measure to judge the effect the speed limit will have on the economy, especially when you consider how bad the economy currently is. However, we can an idea if there was an effect at all, by looking at the amount of high test gasoline pumped on the lake, and a quick check with the charities conducting the poker runs. (these tend to attract the Hi-Performance boats that the speed limit targets) To be sure there will be an economic effect... but i am pretty sure its going to be a ripple noticed only by those businesses directly affected and barely noticed (if at all) by the general public. The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs? I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation... Woodsy
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04-22-2009, 11:23 AM | #63 | |
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Woodsy I really like how you broke down the quantifiable costs of the limit itself. My only question is where would we get that information? I wonder if they will even post the data or if it is even calculated at all. Although opposed to the SL or many different aspects I will say I think they would have worked better as money generator for the state if it was not linked to your MVR. Just think about how many more people are going to fight their tickets and how much it will cost the state. Not to mention even before they were inacted how much difficulty proving accuracy. Anyway, just wanted to say Thank you both for your posts. They show why this thread has value.
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04-22-2009, 05:31 PM | #64 | |
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Anyway, I predict a very interesting boating season. |
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04-22-2009, 06:56 PM | #65 |
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We have a 25 foot Cobalt that wide open goes real fast. I don't think of it as a go fast boat, but it is. But even though it goes like a bat out of you know where, our most enjoyable times are just cruising around the lake, looking at other boats, cottages or the mountains. I do that at a speed well below wide open throttle. It just feels better. My choice of speed is apparently a lot easier then many others though. My bow angle is almost independent of speed - as is my wake. I don't like crawling around the lake - takes to long to see things. I can't imagine just opening the throttle thow and going around the lake at full speed. I would miss a lot. I guess when I was younger I got a thrill out of wanting to go as fast as possible from a to b, but now I just want to enjoy the lake.
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04-22-2009, 09:15 PM | #66 |
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Trojan horse....
I guess I am extremely disappointed.
While I was concerned at the beginning of this thread that it would eventually spiral back into the speed limit debate, I realized that there is still a lot of passion about the issue and this thread contains posts from good people on both sides of that issue that were trying to explore a different angle, the possible economic impact. That said something still didn't set right with me. So, being the curious individual that I am I poked around some other websites tonight. I won't name names nor will I dredge up the other sites, but suffice to say I found the smoking gun. It is obvious to me that at least one (and possibly several)poster in this thread does not truly care about the diverse opinions regarding possible economic impacts. I was very troubled to read some of the extremely negative comments this individual has made against this website and against posters here that were enticed to offer their opinions. Don, this thread is going nowhere fast. While I believe the original poster was sincere in his question, this thread and discussion has become a trojan horse for at least one organization that has savaged this website, it's posters and you, our webmaster. I vote that you close this thread immediately. Thanks... |
04-22-2009, 09:38 AM | #67 | |
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04-22-2009, 09:55 AM | #68 |
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Thanks SA Meredith.
Is that the fat lady singing? |
04-22-2009, 09:36 AM | #70 | |
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That one was taken in Maine on a smaller lake. It's the only one I have of my wake at that kind of speed. The other pictures lack other watercraft, intense residential development and mountains as well though, and they were taken on Winnipesuakee. None were taken by me. |
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04-20-2009, 01:17 PM | #71 | |
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Boats that leave a 3 or 4 foot wake are going much slower than 45 MPH. |
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04-20-2009, 01:20 PM | #72 | |
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04-14-2009, 07:47 AM | #73 | |
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04-14-2009, 08:01 AM | #74 |
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Well I for one will do a lot more boating this season. Speed limit can only enhance the quality of the lake.
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04-14-2009, 08:09 AM | #75 | |
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OH my.. sorry to disagree.. I have talked to numerous people that said they will not be coming up because they do not want the hassel. It's a shame really....
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04-14-2009, 08:18 AM | #76 |
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I will certainly be usung my boat as much if not more than usual. I to have heard a number of people that due to economic conditions will be boating alot less. It's a shame but should open up and ease congestion which will be fantastic. Heading to the boat shortlt for the day.
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04-14-2009, 08:25 AM | #77 |
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However, I also feel that from an economey standpoint there won't be much of an impact... other then maybe slightly on the gas pumps.. For all those people not coming there will be others that will come to support local businesses. They will still have to camp, eat etc. But I bet more people with smaller boats, kayaks, canoes etc will come where those spending hundreds if not thousands in gas won't be coming.
I am there either way... so see you out there!
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04-14-2009, 08:45 AM | #78 |
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I definitely think the bad economy is going to hurt the lake worse than the speed limit, although there will be some impact at the gas pumps and restaurants. When was the last time you saw a bunch of kayakers pull up to the town docks, go drop $500 on dinner then leave... I suspect the big charity poker runs will also be down in revenue because the big boys arent welcome here anymore. There is already an abundance of boat slips for rent and sale...
The average family boaters doesnt have (or will not spend) the money to come stay on Winni as they had in the past. Several families that I know of who would come for the summer are now coming for a month (and trying to rent out thier cottage when they arent using it), others who would come for 2 weeks are down to 1 week, and others are just going to day trip... All in all everyone is cutting back, and that impact will be felt here on Winni. I suspect a very non-congested boating season, with business down all around... Woodsy
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04-14-2009, 08:46 AM | #79 |
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The cruise speed on my boat is about 26-27 mph. Anything less than that, I have to trim down, use more gas, and create a large wake(more erosion). More gas means less often going out to spend money at night. Usually I would go out during daylight, and return after dark. I keep my boat on Long Island so anywhere that serves dinner is a long cruise to be intentionally using more fuel than necessary.
I'd hope they wouldn't go after me for the little bit over, but if they are looking for a reason to pull someone over, well.............. |
04-14-2009, 09:01 AM | #80 | |
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04-14-2009, 09:32 AM | #81 |
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I'm no supporter of the speed limit law, but I would also point out that 25MPH is the LIMIT. You can, in fact, go slower than this speed. And every hull design I've ever seen is more efficient at right around displacement speed than even when on plane (baring hydrofoils and the like).
If you can't get/stay on plane at 25MPH, then go slower, or stay home. This sky-is-falling attitude about the speed limit law is really pathetic (sorry). And just like a speedlimit law on the streets, I would *highly* doubt that anyone is going to get a ticket for going 28 or 32MPH at night. These tickets, if any are actually written, are going to be very hard to enforce, with boat speedometers generally being very inaccurate.
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04-14-2009, 10:06 AM | #82 |
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Brk...
You prove my point.... If i go at displacement speed say 6-8 MPH, a round trip from the Weirs to Meredith will be approximately 1 1/2-2 hours... add in an hour or so for dinner.... it turns into a 3 hour tour! While some nights this might be enjoyable, on others less so. At displacement speed you can forget about going to Center Harbor, Wolfeboro or Alton!! I would have to leave at noon and hope to be back at midnight! At this point it just becomes easier to take the car... and thats a shame! Woodsy
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04-14-2009, 10:53 AM | #83 | |
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And, if you take the car instead of the boat, the economic impact becomes a zero-sum game...
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04-14-2009, 12:25 PM | #84 | |
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Let me make something else VERY clear. I own a 26 foot BOWRIDER capable of a top speed of 47MPH. At night this boat will not stay on plane at 25MPH. So this law affects the Bow Rider family boat crowd just as much. |
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04-14-2009, 01:20 PM | #85 |
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Very well said. I believe you hit the nail on the head that not only one group of people (I now being part of that group) are adversley effected. But as long as the kayakers and canoers can go out in the middle of the broads at night all good..
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04-14-2009, 02:43 PM | #86 | |
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Who in their "right " mind would be in the broads with a kayak or canoe? Maybe some drunk or crackhead! Why is it that the large boat owners that reside on and use the Lake, think the lake belongs only to them!!! Everyone has the right to be safe on the lake, the lack of respect that I've experienced by those big boats while fishing is unbelievable. The bottom line is, if everyone showed the respect to one another as they maintain, there would be NO need for any additional laws! I also don't think anyone will be stopped for going 10mph over in a safe way, but just the passing of the law will undoubtably make people more aware of what they're doing and will make the lake safer for all. |
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04-14-2009, 02:50 PM | #87 | |
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Ready for this.... 4th of July 3 years ago.. Crusing in a fountain in choppy weather. Probably going 40 - 45 mph... Nothing major... There were good 2-3 foot waves with cross wakes everywhere.. Just enjoying a nice jont down the center of the broads where we were going to stop an chill out. RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of the broads is 2 eight foot BLUE Kayakers with BLUE life jackets one. Absolute stupidity. I don't care if you are going 25, 40, 45 or 60 this was tough to see in these conditions... So yes I think your crackhead comment would apply! I have a big boat that is fast, I have a little boat 17 foot center consol fishing boat, and a 26 foot party boat at my dock. With respect and common sense there is no need for restrictions. And no I don't think I own the lake because I have a bigger faster boat. I know when and how to use it very well and IMO the broads is a perfect place to do that. Not in the bays where you have weekend warriors and major congestion.
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04-14-2009, 01:23 PM | #88 |
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This is the list of speed limit supporting entities that Winnfabs published a few years ago during the HB162 days. It may be inaccurate today, but I still use it. Thank Winnfabs for putting it toghether, I'm just passing it along.
The Common Man Ashalnd Insurance Strictly Rentals Wild Meadow Canoes and Kayaks Centre Harbor Cellars Center Harbor Inn AMC (Appalachian Mountain Club) NH Audubon New Hampshire Lakes Association (NHLA) Decker Machinery Company The Architectural Studio Fay’s Boat Yard Birch Island Camp Association Gilford Islands Association (GIA) Jolly Island Association Lockes Island Association Belknap Landscaping Company Design Quest DK Net Design E&S Insurance LLC The Hair Factory Mike’s Ala Carte Catering Pepi Herrmann Crystal, Inc. Glendale Marine River Edge Marina Squam Lakes Association (SLA) Cottage Place on Squam Lake Squam Lake Inn Me Designs Barrons Billiards Blooms Vanity J&J Printing LaBelles Shoe Store Central & Northern Title Haughey, Philpot & Laurent Lakeside Hotel Assoc. Sundial Shops Paugus Bay Marina Best Western Silver Fox Inn Griffin Bodi Krause Municipal Resources, Inc. Great Northern Trading Co Meredith Marina Y-Landing Bear Island Conservation Association (BICA) East Bear Island Conservation Association AMC- 3 Mile Island Winnipesaukee Rowing Club Alexandria Lamp Shop Case N’ Keg Chris Dupont Painting Christopher P. Williams, Architects Eisenberg Chiropractic Hawkins Photography Hobo Railroad Landscapes By Tom League of NH Craftsmen Mastiff Builders Omni Signs Patricia’s “Specially for You” Pemi Glass Company Pretty Petunias Garden Center Remax Bay Side Real Estate Remcon/North Sagecliff Software, Inc. The Village Perk Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad GASCO Realty, LLC 51 Main Street, LLc Inns & Spa at Mill Falls Meredith Bay Painting The Lake House Grille Lago Camp Town Docks Restaurant Mame's The Gallery at Mill Falls Oglethorp Guiseppies Resturant Northern Air Trading Lady of the Lake Clothing Adorments Creative Clothing Christopher P. Williams, Architect Oak Street Associates Old Mill Insurance Innisfree Bookstore Phoenix Leasing, Inc. Silver Top Ventures Minuteman Plumbing & Heating Sava Designs Horn Insurance Harts Restaurant Fermentation Station LLC Hunter's Waukewan Antiques Village Greenery Etcetera Shop Associated Surveyors Moulton Farm Barber Pole Association Trexler’s Marina Land’s End Wyman Trail Association Loon Preservation Committee 1st T Development Corporation The Woodshed Restaurant Castle in the Clouds Amoskeg Insurance EPTAM Plastics The Common Man Inn Corner House Inn Seacoast Kayak Tilton Veterinary Hospital Waterville Valley Condo Rental Thurston’s Marina Lighthouse Inn Weirs Beach Motel and Cottages Van's Hotel Enterprises Wolfboro Inn Island Real Estate of New Hampshire LB Boat Restoration Millie B Wolfeboro Trolley Company Wolfetrap Restaurant |
04-14-2009, 01:33 PM | #89 |
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I have a 25 foot boat, with a single-stepped hull, 24 degrees of deadrise at the transom, and terrible weight distribution due to the big block engine option. It's obviously a pretty bad combination for slow speed planing, but it'll easily plane out at 19 MPH with the tabs down, and 24 MPH (speeds measured with GPS, not the OEM speedometer) with the tabs retracted. I have a Bravo 3 drive, so I suppose that helps a lot, but I find it hard to believe there's many boats out there that really won't plane at 25 MPH.
Mine does get substantially better gas mileage from 28 MPH to 40 MPH compared to 25 MPH though (as measured with a Lowrance LMF-200). Literally, 40% better. |
04-14-2009, 01:51 PM | #90 |
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All good points here.. Again, I don't think we will be able to judge, if at all, the limits will have effected the economy. Those in favor will say "The limits had no effect, the down turn was the economy in general". Those opposed will say "the business is down due to the limits etc etc" But when all is said and done there will be really no way to prove the economic impact what so ever. Most likely it will balance itself out.
As for the arguements concerning gas consumption.......... I will refer back to what my father and others have told me.... "If you are asking what you boat gets for MPG... You shouldn't buy a boat" As you may have guessed or seen from prior threads I am Dead set against the limits. I think it is another law instituted on our freedoms. If current laws were enforced these never would have been instituted or needed (and still isn't IMO). Now the state has just another reason to ruin your good time. The biggest mistake made was linking them to your MVR. I believe even the 150 foot rule is now linked as well as a moving violtation (don't quote me on that). Before, these infractions were money makers for the state. Out of staters and most in staters would normally just pay the fine for it wasn't in their best interests to fight it. Pay it and get it over with.. That is what I always did even when it was a bogus charge. A day off from work would cost a whole lot more then the simple fine. Now by linking them people will have to fight them. So this will flood our courts and cost the tax payers (not the out of staters) huge court fees. Plus as we have all read how it will be so difficult to prove. The 150 is an arbitrary "he said she said" law and the radars have proven to be inaccurate at best. So with that said, This is going to be a very interesting year!
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04-14-2009, 02:36 PM | #91 | |
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Quote:
That Bravo 3 Dual prop drive is the key.... it pushes alot of water very efficiently at lower speeds.... nothing pops a boat on plane better or quicker than the Merc Bravo 3 or Volvo Duoprop setup... But like everything... there is a tradeoff to be made! The dual props become less efficient at higher speeds... thats alot of blade area to spin and it requires sustantially more HP to spin the faster it goes... and water does not compress. All things being equal thats why the huge difference in gasoline consumption. A high performance boat such as my 26' Donzi is setup (weighted, balanced, propped) to go fast... 67-69 MPH. But like everything else there is a tradeoff. The boat doesnt like 25 MPH... even with the tabs down! The propeller is cavitating, the stern squatting and the nose is high.. and the wake rivals a Carver! I am sure its compounded on the larger heavier high performance boats. Its funny but everything settles down smoothly at 30-32 MPH. You wouldnt think 5-6 MPH would make a big difference but it does. For the record.. I seriously doubt the MP is going to pull you over for going 30 MPH... but you never know. Woodsy
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04-15-2009, 10:41 AM | #92 | |
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You know a B3 lower gearcase bolts right up to a B1 upper gearcase, right? Might be worth picking one up on eBay while the 45/25 law is in effect and you can't really use the top end of the B1. A 1.5:1 ratio B1 upper gearcase would be a 2:1 ratio with a B3 lower bolted on, if memory serves. The swap takes mere minutes. |
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04-15-2009, 10:44 AM | #93 |
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Dave...
I have been looking for a deal on a B3 lower for awhile.... but they dont give them (or the propellers) away! LOL! Woodsy
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04-15-2009, 01:57 PM | #94 | |
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Yeah, they are not cheap, but if top speed is not a priority, a nice upgrade. You can get deals now and then on craigslist. My boat model is actually faster with a small block and a B1, but I like longevity and effortless cruising RPM of the big block, and the control of the B3 |
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04-14-2009, 02:53 PM | #95 |
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For those new to this forum I want to point out this post. This topic was closed for many reasons including an overwhelming amount of complaints from members. It is fine to comment on the future impact of the law or the current enforcement but what I am seeing are the same few people making the same points and going down the same paths that were repeated so often last time that I finally had to put a lid on it. If you are really interested in this topic you can read these same points repeated endlessly in the Speed Limit sub-forum.
I'm very close to closing this thread as well. We will not have a repeat of the bickering that dragged this forum down for so long. Again, please feel free to comment on the future economic impact, enforcement and other personal observations. Just please don't again argue the merits of the law. The law passed, that debate is over. Save it for 2011. I've got my finger on the "Close" button. |
04-14-2009, 08:27 PM | #96 |
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Will be interesting to see what happens in the derby this year. Never been to one but assume a lot of the guys run to different areas real fast. Maybe we should have a pool on how many tix are given out by MP?
We can only wait and see what the impact will be on the economy but as bad as it is now I don't see the speed limit making it much worse. Maybe a few years ago but not today. |
04-14-2009, 08:45 PM | #97 |
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I had started a thread awhile back about the poker runs... I also think that since it is geared more towards the "go fast boats" it may take a hit as far as attendance. Which not only hurts the economy but easter seals as well. What a shame.
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04-14-2009, 09:01 PM | #98 |
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Speed limit or not the lake will be less crowded this year, you can't have 8% unemployment and not hit a few boaters. Plus fear, uncertainty and doubt will force a bunch more to convert their "fun" money to "just in case I get laid off" money.
As a side note. I've been scouting out a kayak or small canoe for just a little fun and fishing. Everywere I shop down in southern NH, they say I'm crazy to use a paddle boat on Winnipesaukee, it's so bad up there they had to put a speed limit in. So that campaign will have some effect as well. |
04-14-2009, 11:00 PM | #99 |
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Don, thank you for mentioning a key word in your post...enforcement. I think that when the dust settles in 2011 we will see how "unenforceable" this piece of legislation was from a practical standpoint. Money, equipment, training and manpower will ultimately set the course for this law. My opinion is, that in the end, we will see how little there was to have worried about.
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04-15-2009, 10:18 AM | #100 |
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Hopefully sooner rather than later.
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