Water Pump Issues

Sunrise Point · 04-27-2008, 09:10 PM

We were able to put our water line into the lake a week ago Saturday and noticed a problem that we have not as yet been able to solve.

The pump comes on about every 20 minutes whether we have used the water or not. When we shut the pump off at night (so we could sleep), the pump lost its prime and had to be restarted. I think that we have ruled out a leak under the camp. I turned off the valve that allows water to go into the household plumbing and still the pump kept cycling on every 20 minutes or so. The pump and tank are just 2 years old and we have not had this problem in the past, even with our old pump. So far we have:

Replaced the foot valve
Tightened the connections and used soapy water to check for leaks.
Checked the air pressure in the tank and added a few pounds with a bicycle pump.

The water line from the lake to the pump is buried about 6" underground. Would a crack in this pipe cause our problem? It's a 1" black plastic pipe and also only 2 years old.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

ApS · 04-28-2008, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunrise Point

"...I think that we have ruled out a leak under the camp..."

That one-inch black plastic pipe is very rugged, too.

I'd look at the ball/flapper valve in the toilet tank(s). A leak there would not be detected under the camp, and the pump would cycle regularly. With a cycling frequency of 20 minutes—which is fairly often—you should be able to hear replacement water being added within the toilet tank.

As a test, add food coloring to the bowl to see if the bowl water remains there as it should. Advise everyone in the camp of the on-going test, so the test doesn't get unintentionally "flushed".

wifi · 04-28-2008, 03:58 AM

If you are sure all your plastic connections are tight (heat them with a torch to soften the PVC as you are tightening up on the clamps), what I did was to put a check valve in the line, on the lake side of the pump, before it enters the soil. There was enough water left in the pump to check valve line to reprime the pump when it started. Of course, it pulled some air in, but it saved a lot of digging, PLUS with these new laws, you might need a permit, or might not be allowed to dig up your line. No guarantees, but it worked for me.

Mink Islander · 04-28-2008, 06:11 AM

It does sound like the intake pipe may be cracked. Do you not drain it down to the lake when you close up? I'd suggest you invest in another section of plastic pipe and run it over the ground into the lake and retry the pump to test whether the it still continues to cycle frequently. If it doesn't, then you've probably identified the problem -- cracked pipe.

If you do have to replace the underground pipe, I suggest you run a larger diameter section of pipe from where the water line enters the ground at the pump end, down to where it exits into the lake. I think my builders used 3" pipe. Use that as a sleeve to push the smaller water pipe through. That way, if you ever need to replace it again, you won't have to dig it up, just slide a replacement through the same sleeve. Also provides some protection for the water line itself.

One final suggestion: I installed a plastic ball valve a few feet past where the pipe enters the lake. In the fall, I open that up and it back drains the line down to lake level.

Good luck.

Bear Islander · 04-28-2008, 06:52 AM

Most pumps will have an internal check valve on the intake. This prevents the intake line from getting back pressure when the pump is not running. If this valve is not working the water could be flowing back into the intake line. If this is true the water would still have to be coming out a leak in the pipe or passing back through the foot valve.

If you have a way to open the intake line you can see if it has pressure between pump cycles.

Merrymeeting · 04-28-2008, 08:39 AM

One more suggestion that caused me a lot of time and frustration one year before I found it...

Check the pipe where it enters the lake. Mine passed over rocks at the shoreline. The wave action was enough to wear the pipe against the rock and create a pinhole that I couldn't easily see. But one enough to prevent a true seal.

hazelnut · 04-28-2008, 08:53 AM

I had this exact problem before. TWICE.

The first time there was a pinhole sized hole in the waterline, it was nicked by a propeller.

I'm guessing you have a crack in the pipe or a hole because you lose prime.

The second time after much troubleshooting I discovered that the pressure sensor, the little hose that goes to the pump shut off switch, was clogged with debris and sand. I took a nail and cleaned out the pressure switch and hose.

Anther time the pump was running continuously I noticed that the little hose had cracked and I needed to replace that.

I've had just about every water problem there is...

NonVoting Taxpayer · 05-04-2008, 10:40 AM

Had the same type of problem. Turned out my outside faucet for my water hose was not shutting off completly causing my pump to come on every couple of hours and lose pressure when I had the water pump turned off.

Sunrise Point · 05-04-2008, 05:37 PM

Thanks to all who have responded to my question. I went up this weekend and the pump had not lost its prime, I also shut the pump off Fri. & Sat. night without losing its prime (I think that the foot valve solved that particular problem) but the pump still cycles on about every 20 - 30 minutes.

I don't think that it is a household leak, because we have a shutoff between the pump and the household pipes and when I shut that valve, we still had the problem.

I have not replaced the waterline into the lake as yet, would a crack in this line cause the loss of pressure yet still allow the pump to stay primed? We had a lot of heavy equipment driving back and forth over the area where the water line runs underground (our new septic was installed over the winter).

Thanks again...

SIKSUKR · 05-05-2008, 01:25 PM

I would think a crack in the line from the lake to the pump would cause loss of prime and not a leak from the pump into the house.

hazelnut · 05-05-2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunrise Point

Thanks to all who have responded to my question. I went up this weekend and the pump had not lost its prime, I also shut the pump off Fri. & Sat. night without losing its prime (I think that the foot valve solved that particular problem) but the pump still cycles on about every 20 - 30 minutes.

I don't think that it is a household leak, because we have a shutoff between the pump and the household pipes and when I shut that valve, we still had the problem.

I have not replaced the waterline into the lake as yet, would a crack in this line cause the loss of pressure yet still allow the pump to stay primed? We had a lot of heavy equipment driving back and forth over the area where the water line runs underground (our new septic was installed over the winter).

Thanks again...

Did you try looking at the pressure shut off switch? If there is an debris in there it will cause the pump to stay on or turn on and off frequently. Just a thought.

ApS · 05-05-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunrise Point

"...I don't think that it is a household leak, because we have a shutoff between the pump and the household pipes and when I shut that valve, we still had the problem..."

It's still possible that the leak is at the toilet tank flapper valve and the the household valve seal has collapsed.

Take five minutes with food coloring in the bowl as above, and another five minutes to replace the seal in the valve. It sure beats digging.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunrise Point

"...Checked the air pressure in the tank and added a few pounds with a bicycle pump..."

The water pump is designed to force water against a rubber bladder. If the pressure is too high in the bladder, the pump will cycle more frequently than necessary—though you may still have a problem. Try letting some air out or at least maintain the original spec for pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunrise Point

"...The water line from the lake to the pump is buried about 6" underground..."

'Wish mine was but the soil seems to be eroding out from under it; still, it's in bright sun, and there's been no leak there for 18 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunrise Point

"...We had a lot of heavy equipment driving back and forth over the area where the water line runs underground (our new septic was installed over the winter).

That's a very likely source of the problem, if the problem's in the intake line. I'd expect a septic installer to hold himself responsible for a repair linked to his heavy equipment, bu-u-u-u-u-t sometimes water problems "fix themselves". Save any receipts and check with him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wifi

"...PLUS with these new laws, you might need a permit, or might not be allowed to dig up your line. No guarantees, but it worked for me..."

A way around that permit might be is to securely bond the new length of pipe to the lake end of the "old" pipe. Fold over and secure one end for an "eye" to pull with. Use a cable winch (come-along) to pull on the old plastic pipe. Two thousand pounds of pull should shrink both pipes some as it is pulled, and might save digging if the "run" isn't too long. (Digging is always a bummer, permits notwithstanding).

The above, I've named "The FLL Solution."

Sunrise Point · 05-06-2008, 04:57 AM

I have my food coloring, shovel and bits and pieces of plumbing packed for the weekend. With all of your help, we will get to the bottom of this!

Thank you...

SIKSUKR · 05-06-2008, 10:05 AM

APS hit on a couple key points.The first being is water leaking out of the system through,as he said,a leaky toilet or hose spiget that makes the pump come on to bring it back to full pressure.The other one he touched on was the bladder in your water tank but I think just the opposite of what he described.My pump would cycle on in real short runs even when using a very small amount of water.I found that my bladder actually had a hole in it and there was no air pressure at all.You can't compress water and need the bladder for controlled water pressure and a gradual decrease till the switch asks for more pressure again.I ended up putting in a new tank anyway as it was old and not exspensive.I would definately check out this posibility.Look on your tank and you will find an airvalve just like on your car tires.Put a pressure gauge on it and see if there is any pressure.I don't recall how much pressure was needed and I will check mine and post it.You can use a simple bicycle pump to inflate more pressure.

DickR · 05-06-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

.......Look on your tank and you will find an airvalve just like on your car tires.Put a pressure gauge on it and see if there is any pressure.I don't recall how much pressure was needed and I will check mine and post it.You can use a simple bicycle pump to inflate more pressure.

With the tank empty of water, the pressure of the air above the bladder should be a bit below the pump cut-in pressure. Open a faucet somewhere to a slow flow, then watch the water pressure gauge to see when the pump cuts in. This would be around 25 psig in my experience. Then turn off the breaker and the faucet. Measure both water pressure and pressure above the bladder (valve stem at top of tank), to get the difference due to gauge accuracies - ideally zero. Open a faucet again to let the tank empty of water, at which point the bladder will be down at the bottom outlet. Measure the air pressure above the bladder. Use an air compressor or tire pump to increase the air pressure as required so that the pressure is a couple of pounds below pump-on pressure (corrected for gauge differences, as noted earlier).

The idea is to have the pump cut in when the bladder is down to just above the bottom outlet. Too much above and the volume of water delivered by air pressure between pump-off and pump-on is reduced, resulting in more frequent pump starts, which is what shortens the motor life.

However, given the symptoms of the pump coming on now and then without any intervening water use, I'd go with conclusions given earlier that water is leaking out of the system somewhere, such as where the truck ran over where the line is buried.

ApS · 05-07-2008, 09:37 AM

My professionally-installed pump has a ¾" pipe adapted to the longer 1" pipe, and we get great water pressure upstairs from the pump. (About 15' + above the lake.)

This amateur plumber asks why not consider "fishing" the next sized (down) plastic pipe through the existing pipe?

Sunrise Point · 05-11-2008, 09:06 PM

We tried food coloring in the toilet tank...no leak (good news), and then ran a new waterline above ground...instant improvement-no more problems. The hard part was removing the old line and burying the new one, but it's done and all is well.

Thank you everyone for your helpful advice.

fatlazyless · 05-12-2008, 09:16 AM

Chipmunks have been known to hide a stash of acorns in those black poly, 1 1/4" water lines and clog the line. Any chance of that?

Sunrise Point · 05-12-2008, 02:29 PM

That's one that I didn't think of, but since we leave the foot valve on during the winter, there is no way for one to get into the line. I think that what we had was leaks from the construction vehicles. I am just so happy that the new line fixed the problem.

Coolbreeze · 05-12-2008, 04:51 PM

Did you check the solenoid (usually they grey box about the size of a outlet box.)? Sometimes the solenoid goes bad and you have your experience.

04-27-2008, 09:10 PM	#1
Sunrise Point Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Meredith Center / Winnisquam Posts: 250 Thanks: 87 Thanked 34 Times in 21 Posts	Water Pump Issues We were able to put our water line into the lake a week ago Saturday and noticed a problem that we have not as yet been able to solve. The pump comes on about every 20 minutes whether we have used the water or not. When we shut the pump off at night (so we could sleep), the pump lost its prime and had to be restarted. I think that we have ruled out a leak under the camp. I turned off the valve that allows water to go into the household plumbing and still the pump kept cycling on every 20 minutes or so. The pump and tank are just 2 years old and we have not had this problem in the past, even with our old pump. So far we have: Replaced the foot valve Tightened the connections and used soapy water to check for leaks. Checked the air pressure in the tank and added a few pounds with a bicycle pump. The water line from the lake to the pump is buried about 6" underground. Would a crack in this pipe cause our problem? It's a 1" black plastic pipe and also only 2 years old. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

04-28-2008, 06:11 AM	#4
Mink Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 753 Thanks: 59 Thanked 271 Times in 129 Posts	Pump Problems It does sound like the intake pipe may be cracked. Do you not drain it down to the lake when you close up? I'd suggest you invest in another section of plastic pipe and run it over the ground into the lake and retry the pump to test whether the it still continues to cycle frequently. If it doesn't, then you've probably identified the problem -- cracked pipe. If you do have to replace the underground pipe, I suggest you run a larger diameter section of pipe from where the water line enters the ground at the pump end, down to where it exits into the lake. I think my builders used 3" pipe. Use that as a sleeve to push the smaller water pipe through. That way, if you ever need to replace it again, you won't have to dig it up, just slide a replacement through the same sleeve. Also provides some protection for the water line itself. One final suggestion: I installed a plastic ball valve a few feet past where the pipe enters the lake. In the fall, I open that up and it back drains the line down to lake level. Good luck.

05-04-2008, 10:40 AM	#8
NonVoting Taxpayer Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 98 Thanks: 3 Thanked 24 Times in 10 Posts	Had Similiar Problem Had the same type of problem. Turned out my outside faucet for my water hose was not shutting off completly causing my pump to come on every couple of hours and lose pressure when I had the water pump turned off.

05-04-2008, 05:37 PM	#9
Sunrise Point Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Meredith Center / Winnisquam Posts: 250 Thanks: 87 Thanked 34 Times in 21 Posts	Halfway there! Thanks to all who have responded to my question. I went up this weekend and the pump had not lost its prime, I also shut the pump off Fri. & Sat. night without losing its prime (I think that the foot valve solved that particular problem) but the pump still cycles on about every 20 - 30 minutes. I don't think that it is a household leak, because we have a shutoff between the pump and the household pipes and when I shut that valve, we still had the problem. I have not replaced the waterline into the lake as yet, would a crack in this line cause the loss of pressure yet still allow the pump to stay primed? We had a lot of heavy equipment driving back and forth over the area where the water line runs underground (our new septic was installed over the winter). Thanks again...

05-05-2008, 01:25 PM	#10
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	I would think a crack in the line from the lake to the pump would cause loss of prime and not a leak from the pump into the house. __________________ SIKSUKR

04-28-2008, 03:58 AM	#3
wifi Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Lakes Region Posts: 1,321 Thanks: 282 Thanked 287 Times in 169 Posts	If you are sure all your plastic connections are tight (heat them with a torch to soften the PVC as you are tightening up on the clamps), what I did was to put a check valve in the line, on the lake side of the pump, before it enters the soil. There was enough water left in the pump to check valve line to reprime the pump when it started. Of course, it pulled some air in, but it saved a lot of digging, PLUS with these new laws, you might need a permit, or might not be allowed to dig up your line. No guarantees, but it worked for me.

04-28-2008, 06:52 AM	#5
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,764 Thanks: 32 Thanked 441 Times in 207 Posts	Most pumps will have an internal check valve on the intake. This prevents the intake line from getting back pressure when the pump is not running. If this valve is not working the water could be flowing back into the intake line. If this is true the water would still have to be coming out a leak in the pipe or passing back through the foot valve. If you have a way to open the intake line you can see if it has pressure between pump cycles.

04-28-2008, 08:39 AM	#6
Merrymeeting Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Merrymeeting Lake, New Durham Posts: 2,226 Thanks: 302 Thanked 800 Times in 368 Posts	One more suggestion that caused me a lot of time and frustration one year before I found it... Check the pipe where it enters the lake. Mine passed over rocks at the shoreline. The wave action was enough to wear the pipe against the rock and create a pinhole that I couldn't easily see. But one enough to prevent a true seal.

04-28-2008, 08:53 AM	#7
hazelnut Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,348 Blog Entries: 3 Thanks: 508 Thanked 462 Times in 162 Posts	I had this exact problem before. TWICE. The first time there was a pinhole sized hole in the waterline, it was nicked by a propeller. I'm guessing you have a crack in the pipe or a hole because you lose prime. The second time after much troubleshooting I discovered that the pressure sensor, the little hose that goes to the pump shut off switch, was clogged with debris and sand. I took a nail and cleaned out the pressure switch and hose. Anther time the pump was running continuously I noticed that the little hose had cracked and I needed to replace that. I've had just about every water problem there is...

05-06-2008, 04:57 AM	#13
Sunrise Point Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Meredith Center / Winnisquam Posts: 250 Thanks: 87 Thanked 34 Times in 21 Posts	I have my food coloring, shovel and bits and pieces of plumbing packed for the weekend. With all of your help, we will get to the bottom of this! Thank you...

05-06-2008, 10:05 AM	#14
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	APS hit on a couple key points.The first being is water leaking out of the system through,as he said,a leaky toilet or hose spiget that makes the pump come on to bring it back to full pressure.The other one he touched on was the bladder in your water tank but I think just the opposite of what he described.My pump would cycle on in real short runs even when using a very small amount of water.I found that my bladder actually had a hole in it and there was no air pressure at all.You can't compress water and need the bladder for controlled water pressure and a gradual decrease till the switch asks for more pressure again.I ended up putting in a new tank anyway as it was old and not exspensive.I would definately check out this posibility.Look on your tank and you will find an airvalve just like on your car tires.Put a pressure gauge on it and see if there is any pressure.I don't recall how much pressure was needed and I will check mine and post it.You can use a simple bicycle pump to inflate more pressure. __________________ SIKSUKR

05-07-2008, 09:37 AM	#16
ApS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro Posts: 5,938 Thanks: 2,205 Thanked 776 Times in 553 Posts	Digging? My professionally-installed pump has a ¾" pipe adapted to the longer 1" pipe, and we get great water pressure upstairs from the pump. (About 15' + above the lake.) This amateur plumber asks why not consider "fishing" the next sized (down) plastic pipe through the existing pipe? __________________ Is it "Common Sense" isn't.

05-11-2008, 09:06 PM	#17
Sunrise Point Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Meredith Center / Winnisquam Posts: 250 Thanks: 87 Thanked 34 Times in 21 Posts	Problem solved! We tried food coloring in the toilet tank...no leak (good news), and then ran a new waterline above ground...instant improvement-no more problems. The hard part was removing the old line and burying the new one, but it's done and all is well. Thank you everyone for your helpful advice.

05-12-2008, 09:16 AM	#18
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,746 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,007 Times in 735 Posts	Chipmunks have been known to hide a stash of acorns in those black poly, 1 1/4" water lines and clog the line. Any chance of that? __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

05-12-2008, 02:29 PM	#19
Sunrise Point Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Meredith Center / Winnisquam Posts: 250 Thanks: 87 Thanked 34 Times in 21 Posts	That's one that I didn't think of, but since we leave the foot valve on during the winter, there is no way for one to get into the line. I think that what we had was leaks from the construction vehicles. I am just so happy that the new line fixed the problem.

05-12-2008, 04:51 PM	#20
Coolbreeze Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 332 Thanks: 0 Thanked 51 Times in 26 Posts	Did you check the solenoid (usually they grey box about the size of a outlet box.)? Sometimes the solenoid goes bad and you have your experience.