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Old 09-23-2021, 12:07 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by SailinAway View Post
Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.

And yet, there are thousands of ways that you do not have personal freedom because you've chosen to live in human society, rather than out in the woods or on an island, far from people and having zero need for others. There are thousands of limitations on your freedom, and clearly you accept these limits because you want the benefits of living in human society.

Thus your statement that "we still need to respect individual choice above all else" is incongruous with the way you actually live your life. If you really prioritized your freedom above all else, you would be living in a place where there were no limits on your freedom. Such places do exist, but you don't choose to live there because in fact you have other priorities that are greater than your desire for freedom!

One of the limits on freedom if you choose to live in society is that you can't do things that harm or could harm other people, like walking around unvaccinated or without a mask. Why? Because other people's right to live and to not become gravely ill because of you is saccrosanct.

It is possible to weigh one person's needs against another's and to decide which needs carry greater weight. (Courts do this all the time.) One person's need to stay alive and not become gravely ill does indeed outweigh another person's desire to walk around unvaccinated and unmasked. You cannot rationally deny the magnitude of 670,000 Covid deaths in the US. That outcome and preventing more unnecessary deaths vastly outweighs individual desire to not get vaccinated or wear a mask.

Individual freedom can never be absolute. If we were all 100% free all the time, social chaos would result. Social maturity means accepting limits on personal freedom, especially the prohibition on harming others.

The saddest thing about your belief that personal freedom is more important than anything else is that it lets you have the benefits of living in society but it doesn't protect society---the people who provide you with those benefits---from your harmful choices. That's just selfish, and socially immature.

You need me. (My taxes contribute to the pool of wealth that ensures most of the things you need and enjoy in life.) How does your need for freedom outweigh my need to live?
I just took a breath and went back and reread your post to see if I am missing something and I must say no; I actually and honestly fundamentally disagree with you on most of what you are saying WITH REGARD TO MANDATORY VACCINATION.

The lack of personal choices in many other matters are things that need to be discussed on an issue by issue bases, and cannot be lumped together under the umbrella of the universal cannot argue needs of a society. Thats is the text book example of totalitarian rule when you cannot challenge the government or even the common mind position, it is communism.

People come to America and fight for the most basic and fundamental rights known to man, they choice to have medical and religious and other freedoms. Freedoms like the right to access to birth control, the right to access abortion, the right to life and to choose to die with dignity. They do not come to America to be told to stand in line and be forced to get vaccinated, and one look at the current southern border situation will show you we are NOT requiring these immigrants to get the vaccine we are requiring our own citizens to get! How does that work,,,

As for your magnitude issue; first off everyone knows the numbers are a disaster. I have no idea how far off they are, but they are not accurate representations of reasonably healthy people who in fact died from COVID. They may have been infected with COVID when they died, but not all of them actually died because of COVID. ANd that is a VERY important fact. And if we did use your numbers, what percentage of the population would this be??? Maybe .2 or .3 % depending on the numbers you use. Does that genuinely warrant mandatory anything? Not in my world. Not especially when you already had a 60% vaccination rate AND countless % natural immunity.

This is not about me, it is about you and me and the other guy imposing our medical requirements on others. That is NOT acceptable unless you have some far greater apocalyptic event that is raging out of control and there are no other options. Otherwise respect for peoples personal medical choice and freedoms comes above you worrying about having 100% protection, which as you said there is no such thing.

By getting the vaccine and wearing masks AND forcing others to do the same, you believe you will have full protection, when there will always be breakthroughs and mutations and future infections. You cannot stop this, you cannot win, there is no cure. You will only slow the spread.

So when your desire to get yourself maximum protection forces others to do something they are not in agreement with, not comfortable with, and may not be good for them, you are the one who is trumping the other persons rights, not the other way around, You have this twisted backwards.

If you live is such fear, you can remove yourself from this and isolate, but it is not your right to demand others do what you want them to regarding their medical treatment. It is fundamentally wrong.

Clearly we will not come to agreement on this, and I personally lose no sleep over it. I hope you find your peace with all this.
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