How has the lake changed????
 

Well we are into another year of the speed limit. Much different then last. Beautiful Hot and Sunny Weather. No one can argue that the weather has been a deterent. The economy has not rebounded as much as hoped but I think we have turned a corner and are hopefully on the way to full recovery slowly but surely......

However with Labor Day approaching I can honestly say the lake has not become any safer. The accident rate is up, the registration rate is level (that of the early 90's) but yet we have a SL that was supposed to change all of that.

Now I don't want to see a debate get unfriendly but we have all been on the lake for many many hours and I really want to hear specifics as to if you have seen a difference.

Personally I still see the same crazy captains that either have no education or are purposely thumbing their noses at the 150 ft law, NWZ's and yes I have seen plenty of boats / PWC's exceeding the 45 mph law.

However I can say that in all instances where the SL was broken (again my personal observations) there was not a safety issue involved. However the multiple times I have been cut off by unaware captains and those going WAY too close to me caused me great concern.

So in the spirit of our webmasters request, please lets keep the conversation civil. I am sure we are able to do this, that is until the normal grenade throwers show up but lets see what rational information can be obtained before that.

Thanks

PS: I am only limited to 5 posts per day so I apologize if I don't answer your comments or questions regarding this post. However, now that we have 2 years behind us, this is the conversation that should have been taking place before the legislature jumped the gun. We now have seen 2 years of having the SL's in force. Of course we will be getting peoples beliefs at first but the facts and data from the MP are to follow soon. In the mean time all we have is personal observations AND we all know of the multiple accidents that have occured these past two years. What I am driving at is with the information that we now have from a compartive stand point have you seen a difference? Of course you will have the hardliners that say everything is perfect, but if that were the case why are many now trying to futher restrict us with more NWZ's, stricter noise restrictions, and may I dare say size / HP? I thought SL were supposed to make everything better????

Seriously, why even open this discussion? All you are doing is inviting people to continue to provide more personal opinion on this, and if the last 1000 posts on this topic are any indiction, everyone is going to believe what they want to believe and not be swayed one way or the other.

There appear to be multiple agendas at play on this issue, and the posts, opinions, and "facts" presented all seem far from neutral.

Killing more electrons on this topic will ONLY lead to hostility. If you don't like or agree with any given law or regulation the place to do something about it is NOT on this forum, it's in real life.

I'd prefer to see someone post some actual statistics and trends, and even at that you'd need 4 or 5 years of the current state to even begin to show a trend that you could extrapolate from.

I agree brk-int. With all due respect OCD this is not a good idea, it will only lead to the same old crap. Let the data and statistics speak for themselves, opinions about this have not changed on either side. Please consider deleting your original post.

I see no issue with his post, as it says in the top of this section of the Winni forum:

"Warning! Avoid this area if you don't like debates and arguments!"

So, with that - respectfully, let the thread continue... (thanks Don)

And this will accomplish what? We will get the same crowd that will say the lake feels safer this year, and the other crowd that will say nothing has changed. There that should cover it, debate over. :)

DEJ- OCD has always been consistent in his postings and thoughts about the speed limit that there should be more time to study the issue as the original legislation regarding speed limits intended. The fact that it was hastily put forward last summer by the pro speed limit crowd as all problems solved by the speed limit, nothing to look at here, please move along mentality to get the speed limit passed permanently has been a sticking point for many.
So as Ronald Reagan once said: Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago? By the way the answer was rhetorical, as every one already knew the answer! I believe OCD by his posting is asking, are you better off with a speed limit than you were 2 years ago before the speed limit? I think in this case we all know the answer as well!

Less friendly
 

I am going to move beyond the SL dialogue and say that people on the lake have become less friendly and less courteous. I am not saying that every passing boater should wave to one another but when someone does something courteous, it would be nice to have that act acknowledged.

Since the question was asked, I'll submit a simple answer.

I don't believe anyone's mind has changed in regards to the SL. Those that decided for or against seem to be even less likely to consider any other point of view. Kinda like any political philosophy, the liberals hate the conservatives and the conservatives hate the liberals. It will never change.

Is there a noticeable difference? IMHO this is a loaded question and no offense throwing a little red meat to the wolves. Perception does NOT equal reality or fact. No offense either to the long string of so called experts and "know it alls".... if you cannot site specific reports or verifiable data sources then what you say cannot be validated and therefore is simply self proclaimed 'fact', or more accurately described as 'opinion'.

To fully understand if the SL has made an impact is to at the end of each year compare accident, summons issued etc... data before and after to get an idea. Same can be said for the boater's safety course, has it made a difference? Let the numbers answer that question.

Now if anyone can get their hands on this kind of data from the NHMP or if they would be so kind as to post it here, well then we have something to discuss. Otherwise it's just another long endless debate over who's perception is more accurate. The answer to that is very simple.... MINE! <edit> (I forgot to say I was just kidding)

Just my 02 cents before the bullets start a flying!

Maybe, maybe not.

But as Don posted on the thread title.

"This separated forum is provided for the discussion and debate about controversial issues that effect the Lakes Region but are discouraged from the other more friendly areas. Debates about speed limits, no-wake zones, noise and general complaints and griping belong here. Threads in other forums that turn into debates, arguments or bickering will be moved here. Warning! Avoid this area if you don't like debates and arguments!"


Had to look didn't you? :laugh:

I hope it stays civil, and hopefully interesting.

My comment was not in regards to whether or not this discussion topic was allowed, but more to the point that every single one of these threads in the past have simply degraded to futility.

There is not enough data to draw a logical conclusion from, and furthermore you are forever trying to argue to disprove a negative. You say there were many accidents this year, and it's easy for someone to say "yeah, and without the speed limit we SURELY would have had more". There is NO way you can counter that kind of statement.

I'd love to see a discussion about something based in facts and reality, not just another rehashed opinion thread.

Then rephrase it. Yes, there were far more accidents this year than last, and I believe the year before that as well.

Here's a great question, which requires nothing more than facts, that are readily available.

Have any of the accidents this year, or last, involved speeds that would indicate to you that a speed limit was needed on the lake?

The data is available, and you can get it for a decade or more.

Another question. Have any of the accidents this year indicated that a speed limit was needed on the lake? How about last year, or the year before. The facts are available, so I guess no speculation is really required.

No rehash required. Step right up to the plate and hit the pitch.

Please feel free to show me the 4-5 years of statistics and trends that led to the SL being passed. I dont believe there are any. The only evidence offered was "feelings" and emails from what I gather.

There is one study that was completed by the Marine Patrol in 2007 and only 0.9% of boats exceeded 45mph that is 36 out of 3852.(does not appear to be the epidemic some indicated to get this law passed). Also the top speed was only 62mph far cry from the alleged speeds some people claim.

The speed zone sampling produced the following results:

• The total number of boats clocked was 3852. This number includes both motorboats and PWC’s, data collected during the day and at night.
• The average daytime speed for all vessels (powerboats and PWC’s) was 22.72 miles per hour.
• The average speed for all vessels after 8:00 p.m. was 20.42 miles per hour.
• The average weekday speed was 25.91 miles per hour.
• The average weekend speed was 28.62 miles per hour.
• The maximum speed recorded for a vessel was 62 miles per hour. A total of three vessels were clocked going this speed, two on Saturday 7/14/07 and one on Saturday, 8/04/07.
• The maximum speed for a PWC was 49 miles per hour.
• The maximum speed after 8:00 p.m. was 44 miles per hour.
• There were a total of 36 boats clocked going over 45 miles per hour which represents 0.9% of the total.


Here is the report for anyone's reference.

http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/s...rveyreport.pdf

----------------------

I left this debate a while ago, because I dont believe I can change anyone's mind who is already made up; however someone new to the issue should know the facts. Thanks

What better statistical data is there than this?? Why was this data completely ignored?? This is the largest sampling of data I have seen regarding the issue yet this is the first time I have seen it.

Dan

They disputed the data because it didn't meet their agenda, similar to the NWZ at Barber's Pole. They even charged that since the MP did not support the SL, that they purposely tried to contaminate the data.

However, there have been two incidents which led to the SL that had nothing to do with speed. You all know which ones they were. It's a culture thing, and people that rub them the wrong way, Look Out.

Last year, some of the more professional protagonists, TB, El and SOTD, engaged in many "debates" over the weather and the economy. They proclaimed that the speed limit had already worked, which is why the lake was so quiet. So this year, after a multitude of accidents and drownings and capsizing stories, they couldn't detract from their positions. In spite of renewed chaos and a multitude of boneheads, they still proclaimed it was working very well.

However, another argument, the NWZ at BP, made them change their tune. Instead of the SL working there, boats are Tearing and Ripping and Flying all over the place in that area. Despite observations from people that live and boat there, the allegations continue. It's like leaving a book down to get a drink, and coming back only to find out someone's changed the chapter you were reading :rolleye2:

Most of us do not own very fast boats, a few do. Most of us have embraced safety, additional enforcement, adding to the MP funding, and have expressed a desire to enforce the laws. When provided with facts, they get nasty. So be it, that's politics. However, these are boater's issues, and not general elections. There are a multitude of good people on both sides of every argument. But these discussions should not be arguments, but discussions.

Safety was only 1 facet of the SL law. Now back to my peaceful reading on the dock. BTW last night I slept great...no loud boats tearing by the house at 11 PM at god knows what speed.

I think you guys may be unaware of which side of this debate my opinions fall on.

For the record, I think the speed limit is a pointless feel-good law.

Anyone who looks at this with a clear head can see that it was passed on opinions, emotions, and pandering instead of facts and statistics. 99% of the threads discussing the speed limits show this. You have one side citing statistics, and the other side citing touchy-feely emotions and non-scientific observations.

I also don't see any indications that the anti-SL crowd is going to place any value in some people *feeling* safer, even if there is no data to support that feeling, nor do I see the pro-SL crowd willing to look at actual data in an unbiased fashion and come to the conclusion that we're not going to ever get safety via legislation in any effective manner.

We can start as many of these threads as the server has space for, and they will all become facts vs. feelings debates, which will never do anything more than fill the server db with more random text.

Life long Winni native response.
 

In my opinion the lake is no longer the friendliest place on earth that I have pictured in my mind when I was growing up on The Broads. In the past, everyone get along no matter what they do or what they float. I miss the camaraderie of the water ski racing and sailboat regatta days. Although there are sailboat regattas today, I find the organizers a snobby bunch. They shun most folks outside their little cocoon.

I no longer get the 'boater's wave' from boaters around the lake. A few still do. There was a time last spring my boat broke down just outside the Weirs Channel. In the old days, just about any boater will stop to see if you need assistance. I was drifting a good hour with hundreds of boats zipping by.

I usually keep my eye out for paddlers when a sudden storm comes up. Many time I offer assistance over the years. This year I tried to lend a hand to two kayakers in trouble off Long Island. They shouted back, 'We don't like your kind! Go away!'. One sailboater off Bear Island even flipped me the birdy!

The neighborhood use to be one huge happy family. Everyone will spend a weekend night on each other's deck or porch. The children will play together and enjoy many watersports. Today the 'high rollers' from out of state moved in, tear down the 1800's style fishing cottages and build McMansions. They tend to act like they own the neighborhood and also the road! They snub their neighbors and keep to themselves.

As far as boating safety. I see very little marine patrol presence this summer. I even overheard a couple of novice boaters at a local bar telling folks that the MP budget was cut and they are to busy catching Speeders to notice other infractions. I have to believe them. I have never seen so much NWZ and 150' infractions this year than my life on the lake. I have even witness three boats traveling at max wake speed through the Weirs Channel! Wasn't there serious accidents this year because of 'minor' infractions?

Shorefront property owners are already complaining about the slower boats creating larger wakes and also that noise become a problem because they hear it longer. SL opponents have told them that this will happen and it was ignored. I also notice a number of the so called 'GFBL' boats traded in for large cruisers or yachts. Compounding the situation.

My new neighbors will call the police if one decided to do the long tradition of skinny dipping ala 'On Golden Pond'. The same neighbors will call the marine patrol if i decided to water-ski at sunrise or sunset. One neighbor even confiscate my 'drop off' ski, claiming if drifted out in front of his property!

I can go on and on. Any new laws is not going to take the lake back. It is people that can take the lake back. Trying to limit public launching, tolls at the Weirs channel, limiting the size of boats and horsepower will just make matters worst. It will actually turn the traditional lake folks into 'Outlaws'.

Let's all be reasonable.

Apparently SOTD has several differing "opinions". We have people tearing through the BP area, but he can sleep soundly because of how well the SL is working. In fact, several of the statements supporting the NWZ at BP differed strikingly from recent comments by two primary supporters.

You put that nicely, thanks.

I would agree with you if these were just useless discussions of the political type. Unfortunately, many of these things are going on behind people's backs, with people using lies and baseless accusations to get legislators to sign on. It was known last year that a former(?) political operative and campaign manager type was lobbying heavily for the speed limit bill. The tactics and methods used by that group were both professional. Regardless of anyone's position on a variety of these issues, wouldn't it be reassuring to know that your real opinion is actually being heard?


These very same tactics are now being deployed by the very same folks on a NWZ issue most hadn't heard of. Whether someone supports it or not, the main issue is that a small group of people are lobbying behind people's backs, limiting access to other's opinions. While some may agree with one area and not another, makes no difference in this discussion. Fact is, they will not stop at one NWZ area, but will continue to advances their various causes whether any of you like it or not.

It should be blatantly obvious in these discussions. Some speed limit opponents support a serious discussion of the NWZ, and have not dismissed anyone's concerns at all. Hazelnut has them off guard on this one. He didn't support the speed limit, but made some very eloquent comments as to how this NWZ could benefit him personally. What caught them off guard, is that they didn't expect anyone to factually dispute their reasons, which were skillfully crafted to make everyone fearful of these big, bad, fast boaters. Those in the impacted area know that those issues aren't even issues there.

If you read the support letters for the NWZ, it really reads like a Pro speed limit discussion. This, from the very same people that say the speed limit is working so well, they can now relax :rolleye2:

Transparency is not one of their defining characteristics. :laugh:

Nice post Broadhopper,

You are right, the lake has changed and the biggest part is the attitude. One could make a valid argument one of the greatest assets of Lake Winnipesaukee in years gone by was the friendliness of the people that called that lake home (even if it was for only a few weeks per year).

If you don’t believe it, take a step back and remove the rose colored glasses. Those cabins of yesteryear where we spent our summers, where they really that nice or were they just a backdrop? Was the water cleaner back then? I remember when the Alton Bay Pavilion was a roller skating rink. After a big Saturday night when the rink was at capacity, there would be toilet paper floating in the bay all day Sunday. What made the lake great was the people, the attitude and the feeling you were part of something so much grander than yourself. That is something I think has been lost over the years.

I can understand why people want to turn the clock back, although something’s are better left in the past. I just think people are focusing on the wrong things. It is not the homes, cabins, and boats that need a change. It’s the attitude. If you really want to make a change, start with yourself, if you see somebody in trouble, STOP and lend a hand. If you don’t know your neighbors on the lake, introduce yourself. If you pass another boat wave and smile. Just treat others the way you want to be treated and you will see a change.

The problem here is that most people on this forum don't know why we have a SL. They heard somewhere, or read somewhere or just made it up in their minds that the SL is about safety. It isn't, and new was. Preventing accidents is NOT the reason we have a SL. At best it is one of the secondary or supporting reasons.

That is why all these arguments about test areas, data, trial periods and how many accidents there were in a given year are so far off target. As Bill Murry said in Meatballs "IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER!"

The Anti-SL crowd, at this site and elsewhere, have been arguing the safety issue from day one. And, for the most part, at the exclusion of other more pertinent arguments. And that, in my opinion, is why they lost.

In Star Wars 5 Luke Skywalker says "I can't believe it!" Yoda responds "That is why you fail".

You want to talk about why we have a speed limit? Then drop the safety stuff.

Hey BI.. You and I go round and round on this but I would love to hear it... what do you think the reasons are? cut and dry?

When I got involved in this I read every post, article, thread, news media interview etc. and everyone of them cried being afraid and safety issues as the top priority. I sat in the hearings and this was again the arguement over and over again.

We would then hear a bit of noise issues etc but never was that the primary reasonings the SL crowd asked for the limits.

I personally agree with you. I believe that the "majority" of those who started this crusade are simply trying to ban / limit performance boats from the lake. It is very unfortunate and I have been told by many different sources that their true intentions had nothing to do with speed or safety what so ever (this is why they were unwilling to negotiate in any way).. But without trying to rehash a tragic accident or sounding unsympathetic in anyway, their true intentions was to rid the lake of performance boats due to their friend dying in a night time accident, that involved a performance boat but speed was not a factor at all. Even with today's limits it woudn't have been considered a speed issue. We all know about this accident and it isn't a coincidence that the person who passed away due to this tragic accident lived in the same area as the people who started asking for a speed limit in the first place.

I know it is a big elephant in the room, and I don't want to sound unsympathetic to the family on either side. It unfortunately is the truth but no one openly admits it.

BI- You are correct in stating the obvious...it never was about safety...this was just a smoke screen put up by the pro-speed limit crowd. So please enlighten the forum what it really was about! Please dont keep us in suspense any longer.

I am a new boater and basically new to Lake Winni. I have no experience with how it used to be but I have to say I am very pleased with how many friendly and helpful people I have come across. We have been helped by so many people when we have tried to anchor or dock. Our new neighbors at the marina have been full of helpful tips and have welcomed us in to the "family". Sometimes when you look for the bad, you see the bad. There will always be the bad seeds but I like to think they don't out number the good. Hope you start running in to more of the good!

I think the SL was simply an eye opener. Most people know that the majority of boats don't/can't exceed say 60mph. The ones that can, don't do it often. No, I'm not for the SL per say, but it did set the bar similar to most speed limits off the water. The SL may be 45mph on the water, but MP realize that 50-55mph is acceptable/unenforecable. Same way going 75 on I93 most likely won't get you pulled over by a Statie.

It makes people think twice when operating a boat. I honestly don't drive any different, partly because my boat will barely hit 45mph if I'm lucky. No worries for me. My jet ski on the other hand is different.

What I'm stating is simply my take on the subject and what I think they accomplished with the law. I'd be curious to see how many, if any, tickets were issued in regards to this law. It would also be cool to see if they held up in court.

Side note, I'm completely for the night time speed limit as it can be tough to navigate even as an experienced boater. I do understand that certain boats need certain speeds to stay on plane as well.

Marina vs. The lake
 

The folks that keeps their boats at a large marina such as MVYC or WAM are different. Due to the close proximity of boats, and the commonality between the folks that stay at a marina, fuels a camaderie like no other. Like the old days. Stick around a few years and you will no what I mean.

I know folks who didn't care for the crowd in a particular marina, will move on to another marina. I can't understand the folks who moved to Winnipesaukee, who doesn't like it, decides to 'rock the boat' and hopefully make 'change for the better'. Why can't they moved on? Plenty of waterfront property outside of Winnipesaukee. My new neighbors actually tried to make me move! I am the weirdo, yet I was here first!

Incredible that you can say that when the MPs speed estimate was HIGHER than the current speed limit. That's not really important, but it is one of the little FACTS that anti-sl people keep forgetting. Yes, I know, only 3 mph higher, but higher is higher.

I have many reasons for supporting the SL but number one is children's camps. Some camps are keeping their small boats in on weekends because of the cowboy atmosphere on the lake. To me that is an indication that things are getting out of control and something needs to be done. There is also the question of where the lake is going. What will it be like in 5, 10 or 20 years? Three NE states have state wide speed limits. As more limits are enacted elsewhere is Winni to be the destination for speed enthusiasts? I don't like that idea. We need a speed limit now so hopefully most of these people will go somewhere else.

The single word answer to why we have a speed limit is fear. The fear of a camp director to send out his boats. The fear of a kayaker to come to this lake. The fear of an elderly couple to leave their island home on a weekend. That last one is VERY real. The fear of a parent to let their child take out a boat or canoe. The fear that our beautiful natural resource is being taken over by a small minority of "get out of my way" boaters.

For some it is about erosion, water quality, loon nests, fair distribution of resources, pollution, tourist dollars, wake damage, privacy, noise and yes even boating accidents.

Hey BI... This is why we will always keep going round and round.

1. yes I apologize the "ESTIMATED" speed was 28mph (but remember they just pushed it to 30 mph night time).. But that is splitting hairs. We both know "speed" was not the issue. But this tragic event is the underlying reason why the people who started their agenda for the speed limits. You can't argue that, but it is funny that you nor the pro-sl crowd will even admit to it.

2. Camps....... Yes we all know you were a camp director and want to SL's to help "protect" the camps. I will never convince you otherwise and you will never convince me that the SL helps protect the camps more then putting resources towards enforcing the 150' law near the camps. So we can agree to disagree there.

3. Seriously though, you don't "need" a speed limit to deter people from coming to the lake... Those who truely want to continously go fast and test their boats go to the ocean anyway. Never have I ever heard one of my offshore race boat captains say "I can't wait to get to a lake to test my boat". The true race boats go to the ocean because they can't be muffled and they would cross the lake too quickly before getting dialed in anyway.. That is a reaching argument.

4. Fear.. You hit it.. But how is this solved by a SL. People fear fast boats?? We have all agreed that the majority of boats on the lake can not exceed 45 mph anyway. This doesn't improve fear because as this thread is titled "Nothing has changed" even Dir. Barrett said in the House Trasportation Hearing "nothing will change on the lake either way" so why does the SL calm this fear? Nothing has changed...

5. You mentioned in your last post that Safety has nothing to do with it. However if people are fearful that they aren't "safe" then how doesn't safety have everything to do with it. If we truely want to improve safety on the lake doesn't this actually not only improve the lake but help to calm those fears.

I still think this is where the Pro-SL's aguments fall off the track because they can not be substaniated. Feelings should not dictate law.

We can continue this over a beer soon.. (o'douls for me :D)

BI, you stated "the MPs speed estimate was HIGHER than the current speed limit".

Estimate is the key word here, it very well could have been 24mph but we know that does not fit your agenda. Perhaps this type of stuff is why some here do not trust you and question your motives.

Cowboys don't need to go over 45mph to be cowboys, most can't even go 45mph. The speed limit encompasses a safety problem for MAYBE (and I'll admit this is speculation), 20% at most, of operators on the lake and that is INCLUDING PWC's as well. Most vessels simply can't reach that speed. It's apparent that the ones that do, do not do it often (yes the do it).

The issue of safety during the day is not one of speed but rather knowledge of how to operate a boat, understanding of laws already enacted (excluding the SL law), and knowledge of how to properly navigate the lake.

I'm not trying to be one-sided but I feel strongly about my above opinion.

I am going to stay out of all prior discussion here. And straight up answer the question of how has the lake changed this year... or more to the point over the last two years with speed limits. Well to tell you the truth I really haven't seen an overall change that would indicate to me that there has been any change what so ever. As the speed limit itself is extremely hard and time consuming to enforce and the MP presence on the lake is better spent doing other things I really have not felt as though the speed limit or the enforcing of it has slowed people down.

I continue to see the same problems I have always seen by inconsiderate boaters, or even the considerate boaters that prove once in a while that we are all human and make mistakes. Fortunately for them these things always seem to happen when the MP isn't around. And when the MP is around they are looking for the more serious and more easily enforced infractions.

This past summer I have had issues with a Marina owner, who later called and apologized to me for his actions, to rental boat owners, and everyone in between. All of these problems would be dealt with laws already in existence prior to the SL, through things that would most easily be dealt with by having a Coast Guard #6 style law calling for speeds that are safe and prudent for the given conditions.

I feel that if people keep trying to regulate the boating on Winnipesaukee the are going to eventually harm what we have all come to love. A place where we can come and enjoy ourselves. Quite personally I know what I have to deal with when I take my boat out. I know where to go on the lake when I don't want to deal with the crowds. And I accept the stress of being in the busy areas when I go there...

I also feel that the people that think SL will make things safer....or more enjoyable are only kidding themselves. Boats that break the speed limits are few and far between... short for short burst here and there it happens but... it not like there are cowboys that are flying around at either 6mph or 50mph and don't know how to achieve anything in between. If you aren't comfortable on the lake, you aren't going to be, no mater how many laws and regulations there are, and that is the bottom line... I have more trouble with the issues mother nature throws at me out on the lake then anything....

Bear Islander,

I will totally agree with this one word answer here.... Fear is the problem and the reason we ended up with the Law.... The problem is that no matter how many rules and regulations are put into place fears will never be calmed... because there is always something new to fear.... Fears must be dealt with...
not regulated.

let the facts speak for themselves.

I have not gone searching too much, but what I'd like to see is the marine patrol or a local newspaper publish marine patrol reports, similar to weekly police reports you read in the paper. This IS public information, but I never see it published.
This way we know how many citations were given out, and for what.
We'll also find out what their focus is.

If anyone know where to find it please share it.

1) So what about this year BI? Are the camps letting everyone out on the water again?

2) I'll have to agree with you on that vision. Some kind of limit might be a deterrent for the rogue cowboy. I don't agree with 45 mph, I think that's ridiculous. But you've supported different limits like me, so we're still in agreement.

3) I'll address the "get out of my way boaters" first. Again, I agree. I boat around numerous obstacles here. The worst are large sailboats, and lots of them. Many performance boats, lots of tubers and whatevers. I've had no problems at all with all but one arrogant performance boater. The rest are very friendly, and for the most part, handle their crafts well. If I had to define the GOOMW boater, I'd say a day boater with a tube, or a drunk boater.

As for fear? Subjective. If there's that many boaters that elicit fear, then I'd say an enforcement problem is huge. If they are afraid because they fear noise or size? Then I don't know what to tell you. I know your NWZ on Bear Island has been a constant problem. As you well know, enforcement works only if they are there. (got one this year) :laugh:


We share a concern that too many people are arrogant, careless, too many drinkers, and cowboys of all kinds. You were realistic in thinking that the MP would not have increased funds, nor would the SL supporters assist in any way to mention enforcement. The ironic part is many SL proponents have a love/hate relationship with the MP.


Thanks for being a good person to have on board for discussions BI. I mean that :)

...and speaking of those hearings. My lord the out and out lies that one specific Marina Owner told were enough to make your head spin. I can not believe that this man could sit there and answer questions and actually flat out LIE to the Transportation Committee just to pass a stupid SL law. It was actually scary and I might chalk it up to senility because he's kind of really old.
Then there was this large woman that got up and told this tall tale of a boat that was about to hit her and she heard a girl on the offending boat say "look out daddy!" So I'm sitting there like "Great story about a 150 rule violation and how fast or should I say how slow does a boat have to be going for you to be able to hear the occupants of said boat." :laugh: The whole hearing process was hysterical as person after person got up and told these stories of near misses and almost what if's. One more sensational than the next. All stories had one detail or another that made it impossible for the boat in each scenario to be going more than 20MPH, such as "I saw he wasn't looking" or "I heard her say" "His bow was way high in the air and he couldn't see us." etc. etc. etc. The worst of them all was this woman who was asked if she would be open to allowing the broads to be a higher speed or a seasonal limit and she flat out said no! The reason, She uses the broads to go shopping and so do other Islanders. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I can't make this stuff up. I'm sure we could have a whole thread on this topic though.

Oh woops the original question, No the lake hasn't changed, one bit. Still the same knuckleheads doing the same things they always did. Ignoring the 150foot and being discourteous. The worst one to me is the Right of Way. Isn't that boating 101?

Umh....I was there too. You said she lived on an island? Was she shopping for food? Your spin might make it look like she was shopping for a new hat.

Dramatics and embellishment unfortunately grab people's attention even though many statements are simply inaccurate. We also live in a time where public forums like this exist and anyone can put anything on them and get people all whipped up. So the combination of the two can and does have a toxic affect on any decisions that are being made. This is why it is imperative that the rhetoric for and against must be taken at face value and under the context it's given. These hearings must be presented with hard data that can be presented as evidence to separate fact from fiction.

Unfortunately now a days its far easier to just paint a picture that suits your agenda and somehow that is acceptable and taken seriously.

Sounds like cable TV Max :rolleye2:

Not to far off VTSteve, there is a fine line between fact and fiction.

There is little argument that the successful passage of the SL and various NWZ's are a result of fear and to a great degree spin. I make no bones about it, I favored the SL but not for the reason many here site. I had no doubts that it would NOT make the lake any safer and to date I see no evidence that is has. What I do think it does is provide a valuable tool for the MP to use when necessary when dealing with a reckless operator. The current laws, such as for example "reckless operation" is far to vague and therefore a judgment call by the MP who witnessed said behavior. If challenged in court it can be tough to prove. A speed limit violation can be proven and therefore provides a cut and dry means to have a violation stick.

That said, I don't believe it was necessary to sanction the entire lake to a limit, rather there are areas where a speed limit is not necessary such as the broads while other areas a limit could have been put into place. This would have created IMHO far less division and would have provided a solution were those that want to go fast can and keep things under relative control elsewhere. There is no reason why this could not have been done, but such ideas were lost to those that were vehemently on one side of the issue or another.

I'd be curious to know who thinks this is unreasonable and if so why?

Finally for the purposes of disclosure, I am now a proud VIP member of SBONH and have a whole lot of respect for this organization, it's members and their efforts to promote safety through education.

Food, hats, whatever :laugh: Let's go with food, even better: "I need to go grocery shopping so everyone on the lake needs to slow down for me." :laugh:

Either way SOTD don't you see how silly this logic is. I am surprised the Committee didn't actually laugh in her face. I heard many chuckles in the room during her "testimony," it was hard to keep a straight face.

Hey for what it is worth the hearings were pretty entertaining. The fantastic stories of fear and danger were worthy of movie offers from Hollywood.