Sale of Bahre Estate?
 

I see that the Baher estate has been removed from the listings page. Any word on a sale or was this a strategic move so it didn't get stale?

Bahr Estate
 

Their listing agreement expired on the 15th of this month.

Stale? 63,000 square feet of living space and a $49,000,000 price tag! It will be sitting there for a long time I believe.

It still makes me said that the Alton town folks didn't vote to acquire this property and make it a park. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity and it was missed.

Bahre estate remains on Landvest as an Exclusive Listing
 

http://www.landvest.com/property/254...alton-nh-03809

http://www.landvest.com/properties_f...Lakes%20Region

Alton's town fathers have had many such misteps in the past. They are currently allowing the town to be turned into a strip mall.

$49 million divided by how many tax payers, are; you crazy :eek:

You're evidently a financial genius. $49 million is what Bahre listed his 63,000 square foot castle for several years ago. Evidently, he has marked it down to $38 million today. Bahre paid $2,450,000 to purchase the property. The tax payers were offered the property at something less and voted no. It would have been a home run for the town if they had voted to approve the purchase. Trust me, you can't find a 16 acre parcel on the lake with 1500 of frontage for anything near $2,450,000 today.

"We loved the place, but of course we are biased," Bahre said. "We have a place in Maine, in Naples (Florida), and St. Barth. And we sold the speedway, so we just don't need it anymore."

If the price is too high for buyers, "we'll keep the place," he said. -

See more at: http://www.unionleader.com/apps/pbcs....yGOhXAxX.dpuf

$1
 

The town of Alton could of purchased it years ago (before the mansions) for something like a dollar. I wish they did.

The real question is why did he build such a white elephant that clearly would not appeal to many other than him, when his ownership horizon was going to be so short?

Pretty simple to answer actually....because he could.

Dan

That's true but I'm sure the town doesn't mind cashing that property tax check. Had they taken ownership of it, they would get nothing.

It's always a tough sell having the most expensive house in the area, I mean we are talking Alton NH not Beverly Hills, CA.

I totally disagree that had they developed a park "they would get nothing". Your answer was the one given when Alton passed on the opportunity in order to generate more property taxes. However, what has happened is the money found its way into the budget and was spent unwisely and the town is no better off. $250,000 annually is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

The truth is Alton's economics are driven largely by tourism and having a beautiful park looking down the middle of Lake Winnipesaukee would have greatly enhanced its reputation as a tourism destination. Meredith is a wonderful example of the way things should be done. Laconia is 180 degrees in the other direction. Alton is somewhere in between. In the long-term the economics of any town are driven by how that town is viewed by the public. The Bahre estate did nothing to enhance Alton's reputation. Missing this once in a lifetime opportunity was a travesty.

Because he has a massive ego.

It always saddens me to see towns pass on once-in-a-lifetime/irretrievable opportunities. A parcel that size could have been used for events that I'm sure would have made it incredibly useful, if not profitable.

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I must disagree...
 

One of the best things about living in a small town is that if you are active in the town and get out, you get to meet all sorts of residents; the young and old, rich and poor, etc.

I have had the pleasure to meet with Bob Bahre on a few occasions in town. I have a couple of mutual friends with him, and have been introduced, and talked, to him.

He is very much down to earth, very approachable, and I certainly have not found him to be egotistical in any way, shape or manner.

He has used local contractors to do work on his property, again giving back to the community.

As an Alton taxpayer, I say thanks to him, and other large taxpayers for helping to keep the Alton tax rate among the lowest in the Lakes Region.

....how's the snipe hunting?
 

Believe the residents of Alton had the opportunity to decide by each resident voting on this issue as a warrant article with a secret ballot, similar to voting in the presidential primary, and the Alton voters said no in about 1998.


I was a camper at Camp Alton for June, July, & August, 1964 ...... and used to go snipe hunting all along the top of that Clay Point big high and steep embankment, from 7:30-sundown, in the area where the 3-boat boathouse was constructed.

Hey Bob ...... buddy .... if u read this......how's the snipe hunting out there.....catch any snipe lately........Bob?

I hear you- but it was $2M plus and towns aren't really good at thinking about profits!

How long ago did he buy it? Sounds like he paid market value at the time of sale. I don't think its fair to compare his purchase price then to now.

There are not as many people around as one may think that can stroke a check off for that much just for land, and I bet had he not bought it the land would have been sucked up by a developer.

I guess it all comes down to what you value in life. For me paying extra on my property taxes to have a magnificent town park on the shores of Lake Winnipesaukee that would be enjoyed for generations to come is well worth it. For others saving couple of bucks on their taxes is worth offering the crown jewel of their town to the highest bidder.

It has been a while, probably the late nineties. He definitely paid the going rate at the time. There is no argument there. My point is that with time these assets not only appreciate but become priceless. Bottom line it would have been a wonderful investment for the town of Alton.

Serious question.... How so?

Investing for the future
 

I'd love to see the lake the way it was, with larger pieces of properties. Where I grew up on Leavitt Shores was beautiful, guessing 8 acres, with 500' frontage, nice grand house. It would have been great if the town of Gilford, thinking of the future, didn't allow subdivisions, but the greed for more taxes, and the thought of elegant town buildings and town growth prevailed, and we have today three houses instead of one. I wouldn't want to live there today, it is now suburban, no longer any feeling of the rural life it used to be.

Towns need to get out of the business of subdivisions to further their own selves at the spite of future attractiveness of the area and future generations.

How does this relate to the Bahre property? Towns shouldn't be buying up property to preserve it, they should be making zoning and subdivision rules to limit the expansion. If I wanted to live on Long Island, NY, I would move there. Towns buying up things will just increase the bonding, such as Moultonboro wanting to build a new civic center. Great to get your name on a corner stone, but a disaster for the future tax rates, especially considering the result of the current progressive nature the country has followed in the recent past. The chickens will come home to roost, sooner than you think.

My opinion, based on a lifetime at the lake. I'm sure you have yours, and I will read it, but won't necessarily respond, I know right from, errr... wrong.

You have a nice fantasy but since it never will happen that is exactly why special places such as Camp Alton should be protected for all to enjoy. This isn't a liberal or conservative position. Enough said.

And what would that cost you to purchase now a days? According to history only what like 1% of us can afford to raise our kids in a setting like that.

.....who removed that glacial erratic?
 

Back in '64, in maybe 2-feet of water, close to the now location of Bob's 3-boat boathouse there at Clay Point, there used to be a large glacial erratic; maybe 15' high, grey granite, and weighing a number of tons. So's .......where is it? ..... hello Alton P.D. .....I want to report a missing 10-ton or something, glacial erratic that was in that same spot for the last 12000-years ......don't u know! ......and ever since about the year 2000 ....that big grey boulder has simply disappeared ......like what happened here to that valuable piece of Clay Point geologic history?

I think Bigfoot stole it. :laugh:

Sale of the Bahre Estate
 

I bought it, but with a contingency that I would win the $1.5 billion Powerball (it seemed to me like a sure thing).

Well, unaccountably, I didn't, so the sale is off.

I think it sank!

There used to be a huge glacial erratic on the Merrymeeting river in Alton Bay. We used to fish off it when we were kids. That also " SANK " sometime in the recent past. Sad these land marks are allowed to be erased to enhance some ones property values. I am amazed that it was allowed as it was sitting in the river.

The BIG Rock.....

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopo...igrock0044.JPG

Yea that's the one ! Where did it go?

Nhms
 

Maybe it is now part of Turn 3 at NHMS when they repaved it.

Just maybe it got rolled out into deeper water by the natural force of seismic oscillations caused by an earth tremor centered 133-miles away under Burlington, Vermont.

Or more realistically, that 15-foot high, grey granite glacial erratic was removed by aliens from outer space, who took it to a far-a-way planet, and sculpted it to a perfect resemblance of the Old Man of the Mountain, and then all the aliens agreed to make it their political leader........ all hail new fearless leader from Alton, New Hampshire!

Oh wait .....he already ran and lost for governor back in November, 2014?

Too bad the aliens who decide to colonize our enviorens can't live with our natural treasures . Too bad the great chiefs of our local allow these aliens to deface our back yards ! Money talks !

Not really - it's a conservative position to take a look at what you got in your bank account, what you're making for revenue and say yeah we can't afford this. Then turn to the tax payers and say do you really want your taxes to go up to pay for it? No? OK fine no deal we'll pass on it.

It's a liberal position to say we don't care how much it costs, this feels good, will be great for the town (even though we have no idea how or why) so we're going to "make an investment" AKA tax the town... and figure it all out later. Once we own it who cares it will have to be paid for one way or another and we have all these fat cat out of towners with huge mcmansions to tap into at will. Yes yes let's go after all the "rich people" they can afford it. What's not to love here? Let's go out and pat ourselves on the back now and loathe in our greatness.

Well let's look at this from a different perspective. That property would have cost the town money to acquire and no doubt on credit + interest. Real money. This was not a donation, or a grant or a trust given to the town. Who's going pay for it? The tax payers. While it is a noble idea to preserve these areas, this takes money and ya know some times you simply cannot afford it and this notion that the tax payers are nothing but an endless cash register that can be dipped into has to and will eventually stop. I for one would be pissed off if a portion of my hard earned money was being eaten up in taxes to pay for some park somewhere that is not essential to the well being of the town.

That said if the town had that kind of cash on hand with nothing better to do with it and wanted to at the time buy it and preserve it, then that is an entirely different story although still a costly one. Then again I guess I am one of the few that believe that buying things you don't need on credit is absolutely insane.

Remember the purchase price is just the beginning not only does the town need to buy the property but then what? They would need to sink even more money into improving it... to the tune of how much and by doing what? Least we forget how irresponsibly any town government budgets and spends money. Then it has to be maintained, patrolled, etc... more money and management. Now how is this a money maker? You going to charge people to use it? How much really is the return on that even if you were to match the cost of state park entry. It's a pittance and I suppose in 250 years you might get back the original purchase price if your lucky. The whole thing would have been a net drag on the town. AH maybe we should put in a casino to pay for it.

I actually applaud the town for saying no, for looking at the bottom line and saying this has no ROI for the town, we see no benefit to doing it and we cannot afford to take this on. Plus again if the tax payers voted on it then the appropriate people made the ultimate decision, the ones would have ended up writing the check for it.

My thought is the best option for public preservation would have been to have the state do it, built a nice state park there, put in a massive boat ramp and parking lot. Sure would have beat that piece of crap they bought at the end of Alton Bay years later. The state is in a much better position to take on a project like that and has far more resources at it's disposal to have turned that into something decent.

Very well said.

Only problem many locals, particularly those who live on the lake, have is if the state owns it , it might attract too many of the "unwashed" and living in their bubble they hate to deal with that. Better to just tax the 90% who do not live on the lake and really can not afford the baubles of excess.

It is healthy to look back in the past to see what was done wrong, so as not to repeat it in the future. The beauty the lake once was, is gone forever. my son will only hear my descriptions and experiences. With unbridled growth, what will the future generations be left with? Is a shore front of all Condo's shouting "water view for all" or funnel developments really where you want the lake to end up?

As Maxum points out, towns need to live within their means. Take Moultonboro, for instance. They have all the tax base they need to fund everything, yet still go out to bond new buildings, new parks and new centers. What happens when the economy takes a nose dive, worse than now? First thing people do is jettison their 2nd homes, which erodes the tax base, raises taxes and more homes sell.... Short sited, towns should be saving for spending, not bonding and spending the future. Maxum hit it right on the head, it is not a local vs non local thing as some want to cloud the issue with, it is future survival of the town and everyone currently owning property, local or not.

If this person were in charge, there'd be no national parks and Walmart would own Winnipesaukee.

There's a solid middle ground to this discussion but, like seemingly every topic in America today, it's clearly being polarized.

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........ Ellecoya State Beach and RV Campground
 

Lake Winnipesaukee has a total of one state park which is called a 'State Beach and RV Park.' Lake Winnipesaukee has 182-miles of shoreline, and 72-square miles of surface water, and the lone state park, Ellecoya, occupies just 65-acres.

http://www.nhstateparks.org/visit/st...tate-park.aspx

Here's a super website that shows the one and only Lake Winnipesaukee state park which has been in operation, on a seasonal basis, since sometime in the early 1960's.

I keep hoping that a community sailing facility/program similar to Community Sailing on the Charles River in Boston will get built on the totally undeveloped Ellacoya beach that's on the other side of the Poor Farm Brook from the swimming/bathing beach, close to the RV campground ..... which is isolated from the Ellecoya state beach by the large Poor Farm Brook which has no foot bridge spanning it.

That would be a super-duper spot for a community sailing program because it fronts on a big, open, windy area of the lake complete with big water, big sky, big view, big wind, big natural sandy beach ........ a sail-boater's big dream location ...... big hubba-hubba ..... "The Lake Winnipesaukee Community Sailing Centre" ....... or something!

Ellacoya State Beach & RV Park
www.nhstateparks.com/ellacoya.html

Unfortunately, you seem to be missing the point of what Maxum said, in spite of his very well written post. To compare his logical and rationale stance to your comments about National Parks and Walmart is ludicrous.

The situation referred to in Moultonboro is well stated. Taxpayers are once again going to be asked to pay $6.4 million for a Rec. Center facility that is neither needed or justified.

My apologies for changing the initial subject of this thread.

Not missing the point at all--if everything was simply about taxes and ROI, America would have zero government-owner property paid for by everyone and enjoyed by everyone.

The part I agree with is whom would be better in terms of stewardship, the town or the state, but that conversation implies the realization that there's value in public lands--the middle ground discussion I referred to.

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Well framed Maxum!

Sue, agreed and that is why I wish more people would pay attention to local politics! I love our low tax town and the services available. I don't know that we need more (fill in the blank) at this point!

Heard this morning over coffee. Hilton Hotels has offered Sandy Point owners 18 million for the point. Anyone else heard this rumor? Actually Alton could use a few new hotel rooms and Hilton does a fine job. Doubt it would be more than 6 - 8 stories high.

Sale of Bahre estate
 

18 million is a lot of lobster rolls, and, the question is, do you get a bottomless cup of coffee.

One has to remember, as the last leaf of the fall hits the ground, "tourism" is officially over, and "rumorism" moves to the top for the rest of the winter, except, of course, for discussions of "ice-out".

I should be in charge :D

In the interest of debate - your assertion here is completely lubricous. Furthermore I am sick and tired of the notion that just because you don't agree with what I said that is considered "polarizing". No where did I suggest that property could not or should not have been considered for conservation. What I did say is that the town of Alton alone was not an appropriate candidate to take on that kind of project due to the initial and ongoing costs associated with trying to conserve that property never mind do something with it. Instead I suggested that the STATE would have been a better suited custodian of that property with the infrastructure and logistics and broader tax base to develop it in a way for all to enjoy. However even at the state level it's not an excuse to borrow millions for something that is not essential.

That said every single piece of open space cannot be set aside for conservation. Life goes on, things change, development does and will happen. Would it have been nice for that property to be conserved, absolutely, but what the current owners did with it is tastefully done.

Finally if you were so interested in conserving that property why didn't you just go out and buy it? My bet is probably like the town of Alton, you couldn't afford it.

I do hear FFL and Walmart are in discussions ;)

$18,000,000? The town could have bought the property for a fraction of that price. The value of the property has risen about 3-fold since the time the town thought it was 'too expensive".

I'm confused--there are two properties we're talking about here, right? Or is the Bahre Estate on Sandy Point?

Also, does anyone know what the real price Alton could have bought the land for?

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The state would have been better candidate? How about the federal government? I think about the purchase of a local piece of land totally differently. I have no problem paying higher taxes when I can see where the money is going.

I think "Across America" is trolling by introducing Sandy Point as a possible sale candidate.

Lubricous? Really?!
In any case, yes--I suppose this discussion is a reflection of one greater: where is the line between government spending taxpayer money on "unnecessary" purchases vs. those that are expensive but we know are worthy.

As the son of a machinist and grocery store clerk who has depended on the US Parks system and public lands for recreation my whole life--along with millions and millions of others, including the affluent--I see a great value in purchasing and protecting valuable lands for use by everyone. Of course, this assumes the purchase is viable and won't destroy a town's financial stability.

In short, in my mind, there's a very real balance that needs to be found between people's willingness to pay to keep beautiful places public and available to all rather than the few.

I'd love to know where this land fell in that spectrum.

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Not exactly. The major taxpayers in most of the waterfront towns are non-residents and therefore not voters. The people who vote for some of these things like school budgets are voting to spend their money as well as the money of people who have no say in the matter and in many cases do not use the resources.

As far as having the state pay for it: Yes it spreads the expense out over a larger pool of taxpayers but it is still money that needs to be raised from the tax levy.

Sorry, there is no free lunch!

And what about those who can barely afford the taxes they are already paying. Just because you can and are willing to pay higher taxes doesn't mean everyone else can or does.

Agreed there is no free lunch here, but ideally this area would have better served by being state managed.

Yes that is true the voters locally are spending other people's money but they are motivated by what affect any new spending will have on their own tax bill as well - I don't think they necessarily care about the non voting tax payers. That said not every vote is about that, but it certainly is a factor to many.

Well considering the entire national debt is hovering around 17 trillion dollars at the moment and growing I'd say we've already got ourselves a pretty big problem to deal with.

Everyone now a days wants stuff and wants it NOW, and how to pay for it.... what was the monthly payment again? Sorry but once again I say going into debt for non-essentials is insane. Simple as that. Protecting beautiful places is a noble effort where it is possible and feasible to do. In the case of this piece of property, from the town's perspective it was neither from a financial point of view. Instead the property falls into private hands, a very nice estate is built. It could have been far worse.

who pays?
 

In ANY discussion about funding for a project, always substitute the word "taxpayers" in place of every instance of the words "town", "state", or "Federal government" and see if it still sounds like a good idea. It almost always sounds like a bad one, especially as we head into another major recession (if we even ever got out of it).

How about adding "Grant" to your list. It is amazing to hear local officials equate a government grant to free money that no one pays for.

Oh common Orion, you missed the latest and greatest term of all time... "investment". Awh now don't you feel much better now that you know all your hard earned tax money is being "invested" versus "spent".

;)

$30M price drop
 

Yours at the bargain sale price of $19M. Who's going to bid first?

http://www.christiesrealestate.com/e...alton-nh-03809

Or buy them separately for 50m total. Update the listing already, or are they just not serious about it any longer?

Resort?
 

That would make a spectacular resort and at that price it would probably be a bargain for someone like Marriott.

Considering it was originally priced at 49 million I agree!! Have to wonder why the 30 million price drop though?....

I'm pretty sure that Alton zoning would prohibit commercial use of that property. There were huge fights in 2005 just to get permission to build such a large private residence.

FWIW, taxes are 332k for the 2 properties. Another 100k for various pieces of land that I don't know if are included in the sale.

Where's my checkbook
 

I know I left it somewhere just can't seem to find it.

I'm guessing that's why it hasn't sold yet. Not that anyone with that kind of money would be worried about taxes but that does enter the equation.

No state income tax, no capital gains tax, and a 5890' airport runway about 30-minutes away....... price, 19-million dollars......what's not to like?

It used to be a very happening place when it was an eight weeks long, June-July-August, boys summer camp: Camp Alton, 1937-1992, for 55 super-duper years. The Behre mansion occupies the area that was formerly the younger campers softball field, known as second field, and 8-9-10-11 year olds played softball there. It was very green, grassy, treed, and had a big view down the lake.

Too bad such a huge area will no longer be accessible to the public, and the fact that it's still for sale indicates how few people would buy/can afford such a place.

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There's still hope. In 100 years it will be considered a tear-down (if today's standards still apply).

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