Farm Island
Some of you may know that Farm Island in 19 Mile Bay is on the market. Farm Island is one of the few remaining undeveloped islands on Winnipesaukee.The Abenaki used to fish and hunt there, and there is a historic camp in the center of the island that goes back to when livestock spent the summer grazing there. Camp Belknap currently owns roughly 1/3 of the island and that portion is not on the market. There is a buyer interested in subdividing the 13+ acres into 12 buildable lots while preserving the historic camp. There is a hearing on July 18th at 7:00 at the Tuftonboro Town Hall at which this proposal to subdivide will be discussed. If you are interested in the future of Farm Island, come to the hearing on the 18th to learn more.
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Farm Island
Back in 1965 my grandfather was looking at property on Cow Island. As he was boating over to Cow from 19 mile bay the real estate broker said he could buy the entirety of Farm Island for 5000 dollars. My grandfather said he wasnt interested in pursuing it because at the time it had no electricity. He ended up buying a lot on Cow for 3500 dollars that October. I am not sure if Farm Island was really for sale then but that is the story I was told.
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Anything you buy on Winnipesaukee for storefront, will appreciate in value. Will it beat the market? Who knows. But it will go up in value.
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I think you meant shore front. Don't you all miss the days of the big dig in Boston when all that stolen money was used to buy million dollar homes with cash?
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Farm Island
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It will be interesting to see how this turns out. Last remaining private undeveloped island on the lake. I heard that a large turn out is expected. |
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Probably 99.9% of all Winnipesaukee island homes are second homes with local property taxes costing from $3,000-8,000/yr and going up every year.
So's with the new, (2018 tax year) federal income tax deduction limited to $10,000 ..... this new limit totally, totally, totally hits the second home owner very very very hard ..... regardless what anyone says ..... you understand! |
How did the planning board meeting go regarding this proposed subdivision?
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2k...
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True.
Many trades people came in, with cash, not just from "The Dig" Face it, under the table income has been around for a long, long time, and it was very noticeable in the boat business back then. |
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Between the trades and the cop details there was lots of cash to be had. Maybe some worked out deals for under the table, pay. There are always ways to beat the system...especially when big city funds are involved. |
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Farm Island .....not the Big dig
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Over 20 people spoke why it should not be allowed to happen. The Planning Board was presented with many documents and studies to review. They have a difficult and challenging job. Nearly 300 people sighed a petition against the subdivision development. Channel 9 WMUR was there with cameras. It was shown on TV Thursday evening. Next hearing is scheduled for August 1 at the Tuftonboro Elementary School up town. This will allow for even more people to attend. |
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Hillcountry hit the nail on the head- some of these guys were getting 2-3-4 times overtime pay- why wouldn't they take it? It was the people who were late meeting their "friendly" government contracts who, all of a sudden had to pay through their noses to complete the job (s), that were stealing the money to over pay. You wouldn't have believed the number of weekly/bi-weekly boat rentals that went out on cash. The costs would seem moderate, by today's standards, but they couldn't spend the money fast enough to enjoy themselves- I said good for them!!! |
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My brother in law was a tradesman on the big dig and he said anything that wasn't bolted to the ground was stolen... that's where alot of the Ill gotten money used to buy houses and boats came from.
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If all the requirements are met neither the citizens nor the town can say no just because we don't want it to be done. That is completely unfair. Do I personally like it, no, however that is no reason to prevent this from happening. If there are 300 people who don't like it and so concerned... then they can all pitch in about $6700 bucks a piece buy the property and turn it into conservation land. |
Isn't it obvious?
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Variety of issues exist regarding the development. Do any have legs...maybe not. I think the biggest issue is 1/3 of the island was sold a few years back to the ymca and many feel the rest of the island could be preserved in its current state by selling the remainder to the ymca camp. The ymca has made an offer to purchase the remainder at the same price as the developer. It has been turned down.
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The Winchester keep giving extensions for the last 7 months since the P&S was signed back in October, 2018. Yet the Winchesters sold 1/3 of the island to Camp Belknap back in 2010. This does not make sense. Something is really going wrong in any kind of logic. WMUR and other local news outlets are starting to ask the same questions How and why would anyone want to go through the trouble of all the pain of permitting and cost of development with 300 local folks saying... NO!! This whole deal is really need to be investigated further. There are so many questions about what is going on here. |
Follow the money. If the YMCA was to purchase the remaining piece it would come off the local tax haul as they are tax exempt.
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...... way to go, Tuftonboro!
Across the 19-Mile Bay, a close boat ride away, there's Camp Winaukee with its' summer camp campus situated on both the main land neck, and on an island as well. Does Camp Winaukee pay property taxes to Moultonborough for using their mainland/island properties as a summer camp? Yes, Camp Winaukee pays property taxes.
So, why does the YMCA Camp Belknap get to be property tax exempt in nearby Tuftonboro? Is most gracious that Tuftonboro will agree to their tax exempt, summer camp status. Way to go ....... Tuftonboro! |
Camp Winaukee is a private owned camp as the YMCA Is a nonprofit organization, but I am positive you knew this before writing
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Farm Island article
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https://www.concordmonitor.com/Savin...sland-26937008 |
Ahoy there Mate ...... am blocked from reading this .... due to 5-articles/month limit ..... someone do me a favor and post this Concord Monitor article so it can be read .... thanks in advance ..... must be many others in this same boat! Hey, I don't want to buy it, I just want to read it!:laugh:
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And if both the Y and the developers offered the same money, why did the Winchesters take the developers over the Y? Other than straight $, it appears pretty clear that the Y's ownership would be much better for the region (see past discussions about dwindling summer camps/public access vs. affluent acquisition). Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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While it's noble that lots of people may not want this to happen - in typical not in my back yard fashion, mob rule doesn't or shouldn't come into play here. I'm sure a bunch of so called objectors already own property that probably have the same sketchy "historical" value, may have been a place loons could have nested as well, yet how many sleep well at night knowing they have destroyed loon habitat or plowed under some place the Indians used to camp out on (maybe) hundreds of years ago so common that's just grasping at whatever they can to stop this, none of the objections I have read have any reasonable rational behind them. Far as I'm concerned the owners have every right if they so choose to get what they can out of that property. Finally the town has zero right to steer via legislative power the proposed sale of any property without due cause. It's got nothing to do with additional tax revenue although as noted the end result is beneficial to both the town and tax payers. Any one who wants to preserve this property should appeal directly to the current owners. |
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Mission Statement The Planning Board mission is to promote the health, safety, convenience and general welfare of the population of the Town of Tuftonboro, to protect and conserve the rural and recreational value of property, to encourage the most appropriate use of land throughout the Town, and to promote the efficiency and economy in the process of development. Also to your comment regarding "Any one who wants to preserve this property should appeal directly to the current owners" That has indeed happened. The camp is offering the exact same money as the prospective developer and will preserve it if allowed to purchase it. |
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This case has similarities to the people that were looking to rezone Big Island on Paugus were the governments are doing everything in their power to keep these islands as is Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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An owner is presented with identical prices from two bidders for their land. One bidder will build houses for 12 families, increasing the environmental impact significantly. Another will grant low impact access to hundreds of kids every year, and protect the land forever. If I were the Winchesters, I think I'd know how I'd want to be remembered. |
I'm actually surprised that the Town of Tuftonboro and/or the State of NH doesn't buy it and preserve it as conservation land......
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Far as the mission statement of the town goes... that's all well and good but read the language carefully, words such as promote, and encourage they can certainly do and when it comes to say allowing special exceptions for development, these ideals can certainly play a part but they cannot just say you can't build a house there because the neighbors don't like it. Nor can they just inject themselves into a legal transaction between two parties just because. This is a serious overreach and I don't believe they have the authority to do so. Keep in mind I am not taking sides on this just saying if all the requirements are met the town cannot come along and say no without just cause. The owner of the property has rights too. And not for nothing, ANY waterfront lot development creates an impact of some sort so using that as an argument then sets the precedence of what? No more waterfront lot development? Or is it just ok for some but not for others? |
How is it known that the owners were presented with identical offers? Have you seen the offers? It appears that the YMCA offer was contingent on raising funds.
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The bigger point, perhaps not articulated clearly enough--it's nice if someone can reap a windfall on property from their own hard work or their grandparents. It would also be nice if that person didn't feel the need to get every last dime and instead thought a bit about what's best for the community long term. |
Hershey?
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Cheney Farm...
That's the one--thanks!
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Opponents to Farm Island development packed a public hearing before the Tuftonboro Planning Board on July 18.
The board will again hear opinions on the proposal at a meeting on Aug. 1, which will take place at Tuftonboro Elementary School in anticipation of a heavier turnout than normal. However, the board is not likely to vote on the matter until a later date. From the Laconia Sun: https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...ntent=headline |
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Sometimes people forget that all the waterfront homes we enjoy were once un-developed, pristine shoreline. Privately owned land should be able to be developed, as long as current zoning and rules are followed. I would love to see all future development stopped, a limit on the size, speed, sound, and number of boats, free parking and access for island property owners, lower property taxes, and more, but that's not going to happen, nor should it. I'll be curious as to how this all works out. |
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These folks should move to Squam Lake, instead of rattling our cage! |
My opinion has changed. Looks like camp Belknap had a few opportunities to purchase this property and for several reasons could not at the time pull the trigger. According to the article it appears the Winchesters tried to sell to the camp but it did not work out. The NIMBY crowd has no standing here, I wish the new owners well.
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Good article in LDS. If the buyers are sincere that they do not wish to develop the island beyond one simple home and only need a security blanket of sorts, then the solution is pretty obvious--in a 3-way deal, Camp Belknap could buy the development rights to the island from the current buyers for $500K to $1MM (I leave the exact number to the principals). The current buyers could pocket a big slug of cash today, dramatically reducing their risk; and Belknap could insure its tranquility for a lower price than would otherwise be possible.
https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...6e83059d7.html |
Farm Island
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Flying Scout ding ding ding...you hit the target...but in reality it won't work. The developer has said flat out I will not sell any part of the island to the camp. They have said "I don't want any part of the camp functions and activities near my development". Yet Camp Belknap owes 1/3 of the island and the boundary lines between the homestead home to be restored and camp owned property is only 25' feet away. So go figure!! |
I’ve heard that the property may be in “current use” tax status. From my understanding that would mean either the seller or the potential buyer would need to come up with the difference between the reduced current use tax rate and the residential rate from the time the current use variance was granted. Depending on how long the island has been in “current use” that could be a tidy sum.
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Lot of rumors out there. Who knows if half are true but I have heard there are tax issues ie. back taxes owed. I’m sure the town wants it developed for the tax revenue. Don’t believe the camp pays taxes.
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According to my sources, there is no back taxes owed on the land, and hasn't been.
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How about letting the OWNER decide? or...... BUY IT and divide it your way and make that "3way" deal! |
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/22/n...ir-rights.html |
I hate to see Farm Island developed too but I keep wondering why didn't Camp Belknap didn't buy the whole thing, or why somebody else didn't buy it to save it if they want it saved. It has been for sale for quite a while.
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At the time they purchased the one third they didn’t have the money I believe. Lot changes going on there in past couple years to make needed improvements.
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current use
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The only way to avoid the penalty is to not develop the property |
Farm Island
You are so right, WinnisquamZ , that is why so many of the private, independent camps are no longer operating. The tax bite got so large that private camps were forced to either significantly raise their summer tuition rates and run the risk of pricing themselves out of business, or, re-organize themselves within the protection of an existing non-profit organization and enjoy the financial relief afforded therewith. If the government 'tinkers' with the tax Code and makes changes to the non-profit qualifications or the amount an individual may deduct with respect to non-profits, then these camps will disappear, also.
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2nd tuftonboro hearing is tonight 7:00 Tuftonboro elementary school
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See you there... |
Corruption at Camp Belknap! Parents Beware!
Corruption at Camp Belknap! Parents Beware!
Camp Belknap has illegally built two structures on Farm Island and one on the mainland in Tuftonboro. All are in violation. The town has found numerous other violations. Farm Island is zoned Residential. Property owners at the hearing provided audio and video displaying the illegal and deliberate violation of law. Zero respect for abuttors and what young people should learn. In a previous town meeting they even persuaded an innocent young teenage camper to speak of how he enjoyed the opportunity were the camp directed him on residential property breaking the NH law. Camp Belknap also has violated New Hampshire Shore-land Protection laws as well. Seth Kassells directed the use a landing area for sail and paddle boats in one of NH prime Loon Nesting areas. For gain Camp Belknap also engaged in a conservation easement. With this easement they specified no power boats would go to Farm Island. Power boats do frequent Farm Island. Young people should not be exposed to this corruption and exploitation of State law with zero respect for residential abbutors. Parents need to be vigilant. This camps alleged alignment with Christianity and the YMCA is disgusting. Parents choose your children's future first! |
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Are those pesky kids making it difficult for you to build your McMansion? |
Glass House
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https://owens-marine.pissedconsumer.com/review.html |
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Interesting. I guess the meeting last night didn't go well for this guy? FWIW and being in direct sight of the Belknap landing area they utilize to access the land they own, they do not land power boats, just canoes, kayaks and once in a while a sail boat gets blown in there. Having been there since early 2000's I have yet to see a nesting loon on that side of the island.
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Help Belknap
I contributed to Camp Belknap's purchase of 7.5 acres a decade ago. I would be happy to help them again. More so, after seeing Randy Owen's post.
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Not quoting the post as several have already done so....should be some interesting reading coming up on this thread.
The bar for debate going forward has certainly been moved. Im not sure that posting unsubstantiated accusations on a public forum is the best way to sway public opinion in your favor... |
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Just tuning in to this thread? Here's a little background music with a July 26 replay from the LaDaSun; 'Island plan leads to unhappy campers in Tuftonboro' .... a Lake Winnipesaukee summer camp, island melody with two color photographs showing 20-acre Farm Island plus a photo with campers in three sailboats. |
duty to inform
I appreciate all the input. The news is not anything but the facts. For the record I have had no problem with the camp in prior years. I held a contract with Gene Clark and Gene did everything he promised and the transaction was flawless. Currently management there is acting like they are above the law. Zoning is zoning. Shoreline protection laws are what New Hampshire requires.
Protecting the loons is important. When a person points to me for my custodial efforts for the protection of the environment and then builds an extremely busy boat landing right on top of one of the lakes best potential loon nesting areas I must speak out. This is a fraction of the broken laws. In turn I ask what are we teaching our children? I felt a duty to inform Sorry for any collateral frustration. |
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ill feelings
The Camp has done very many evasive things already directly to the Winchester family members. I am certain the lack of care the camp has demonstrated with Loons and the law only accelerates the ill feelings.
Thank you for your input. |
Sorry randy but I’ve lived right there since 2002. The only loon nesting area that has occurred on the island since then is off the two black pins on northwest side of the island, more precisely the northernmost pin of the two which just so happens to be the land up for sale. I have no beef in this at all but the tact you displayed in your post is anything but professional and honestly with that type of attitude you displayed in your post I certainly wouldn’t want to be in a real estate transaction your involved in
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A losing plan
Randy Owen:
There are a lot more Camp Belknap alumni/supporters out there than you can imagine, plus the conservationists. Every time you post here, you lose ground. At the very least you should hire a PR firm to be your spokesman. At the best, you should just leave. It is obvious that maintaining or improving Lake Winnipesaukee is at the bottom of your to do list, if on the list at all. |
Wait, is Randy trying to buy the property for sale? I don't understand why this tact is being taken. And the Randy Owen I searched on the Google has a lot of...history.
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Civility
I continue to be amazed at the lack of civil discourse whenever a contentious topic rears its head. Even a thin dime has two sides. In the case of Farm Island, can’t there be a civilized debate without the rancor?
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transparency
the comments have not fallen on deaf ears. there remains a belief that wonderful things have come from this camp. at a time i engaged with gene clark with the most wonderful rewarding experience. but no one and no entity can act beyond the law. i offered full transparency to current director of the camp. to that end see what has come of it.
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It should be also known that Camp Belknap has made an offer to purchase many months ago as well. It appears that the potential buyer RO is panicking and trying to grasp at any thing he can think of to create confusion. From what I Understand the Tuftonboro Planning Board is doing their due diligence to make sure they hear everyone's concerns about this project and get the facts from organizations that specialize in specifics like water quality, boat and land traffic conjestion etc. etc. The P&S was signed about a year ago. The Winchester family could have had their money many months ago without having to deal with Planning Board hearings. As it is there has been extension after extension and that continues. The Planning Board is doing their job. And the Planning Board could go on with their job of helping other Tuftonboro citizens with projects that do not impact the lake and surrounding areas like this subdivision that 90% of the locals object too. |
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YES. If you read my post you will see that it is about civility. |
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I do agree that there has been a shift on here in the past few years but in the case of this this thread Mr Owen owns any escalation. It should be interesting to see what the planning board has to say. |
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On the plus side, he seems to have united the rest of the group ;) |
Understood. I will try to MMOB. Hopefully, this will all be resolved amicably,
but that might be a stretch. Many of the wonderful camps have disappeared over the years, which is very sad. |
Assuming that RO is the buyer who has a binding purchase and sale agreement, the Winchesters do not have the legal right to back out, without being in breach of contract.
Given the flavor of his comments I suspect RO is attempting to sway public opinion to his side viz. the pending hearings. Hello, backfire. |
Binding P & S?
I would expect the Owen P & S to be contingent on subdivision approval, so, "partially binding?" If there were no contingencies, the closing would have occurred ages back. The planning board cannot deny based on public sentiment. They just confirm that all the laws and ordinances are met. If they deny whimsically based on public sentiment, they will likely lose an appeal.
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Farm Island continued
This is the latest....on Farm Island....Regional Planning Commission involved
"We need your help! The remainder of the island directly across from Camp Belknap is attempting to be purchased by a developer for subdivision into 10 lots on only 13 acres. Camp Belknap currently uses and conserves the 8 acres which Belknap purchased by donations for overnight camping and nature exploration. We are gravely concerned that a development of this size has the potential of polluting the water, creating noise and light pollution, creating congested waterways, as well as, parking and traffic concerns in our area. Due to the concerns regarding the proposed subdivision’s potential environmental impact to Lake Winnipesaukee, the Tuftonboro Planning Board has requested a review by the Regional Planning Commission. As a regional item of concern anyone living in a town on the lake needs to come voice their opinion. Please come to the meeting on October 3 at 7PM at the Tuftonboro Central School to show your support against the development. To learn more please see the links below." Thank you in advance for the Support. -Save 19 Mile Bay Group https://www.concordmonitor.com/Savin...sland-26937008 https://www.tuftonboro.org/sites/tuf...ttachments.pdf https://www.tuftonboro.org/sites/tuf...ttachments.pdf |
10/3 meeting results??
Any information on last night's meeting?
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The hearing continues. Next hearing set for 10/17 at Tuftonboro Town Hall. |
Tuftonboro planning board approved the subdivision last night.
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Towns need put minimum lot sizes, such as Sandwich does. So, planning boards can't be goaded into default granting tiny lots, then turn into a Moultonboro.
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I just read that Camp Belknap has started a lawsuit agains the development of Farm Island.
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