After this evening's select board meeting ... actually a 15 year bond at 5.25%, not 10 year at 4% ... no one knew how the $.36/$1000 was calculated, except given by the bond folks saying .36/1000 ... of what ... did the only rational thing.

Went to Buckeyes, had a couple of brews with dinner and came home.

Good Bye and so long!

15 year bond at 5.25% interest

Monthly payment $114,500 x 12 months = $1,374,000 annually
Total interest paid $6,366,520
Total cost of loan $20,609,935
Payoff date Dec 2037

Just watching these towns spend money, I am beginning to think recreation is more important than police, fire, infrastructure. Is that what government is supposed to be about?

NH towns have their own local public school buildings that usually have gymnasiums that can be used for adult recreation during off school hours, when the student population is not using them. Volleyball, basketball, and pickleball programs are all doable in the off-hours at your local school gym.

For three dollars you can play pickleball from 10:15-11:45, Tues, Thurs, Friday at the Laconia Community Center ..... www.laconianh.gov/1030/Community-Center ....... two p-ball courts with a maple hardwood floor ..... where and when the best pickleballers go to play!

Boating, snowmobiling, alpine skiing, horseback riding, etc, etc, etc...
The towns/cities focus on what the population focuses on.

Uniting
 

This is definitely NOT the time to be pushing the ridiculous HUB on Moultonboro taxpayers. A perfect solution, percolating in my sick mind, would be to have nonresident waterfront taxpayers suddenly claim their NH property as their primary residence, and then appear at Town Meeting in May and vote against the warrant article. I realize this isn’t necessarily a practical solution, but a huge percentage of our taxes (70%?) are paid by non residents. Who knows? Maybe enough taxpayers will be sick of having their wallets picked!

You mean March?
They would just add it to the next cycle like they have been doing.

It is actually pretty hard to get a bond to pass... and that is on items that many may consider necessary; like fire or police.

Moultonborough changed the "town meeting day" to May a couple of years ago. For 2023, "ballot voting" day is May 9th, Tuesday, for voting on officials, zoning, and other items only allowed by statute. The second session is on Thursday May 11th, starting at 6:00pm, at the school academy.

Legally, the town voters (legislative body) decides the meeting month, either March, April, or May. The governing body, (select board for MoBo) decides the time and day, legally, of the second session.

For many, many years, the second session was on Saturday, starting in the morning around 9:30am or so, after the School District annual meeting at the same location.

Some believe the premise for the change away from Saturday, was because the change to May interfered a lot with warm weather activities, that were not affected as much in March; e.g., boating, outdoor sports etc.

Others believe the change to a night session during the week, not weekend, was to keep the seniors away from voting against The Hub.

Great illustration of how the "pure...perfect..." romanticized version of democracy that is Town Meeting is among the least democratic structures. Basically, people have to "pay" (with their valuable time) to vote. Much more appropriate for major issues would be a ballot question in November and/or elected representatives with authority

Other people may have opposing views.

I grew up in a town with an open Town Meeting format. It gives every citizen the opportunity to question department heads, Selectmen, Finance Committee, School Committee and any town official about any issue. Anyone can go to the microphone and state their case and amend the wording of any line item or the amount to be appropriated.

If someone views their time as too valuable to get involved in the decision making they also lose the opportunity to educate themselves about the issues. A simple ballot question can be worded in many ways to push the desired outcome.

Many people move into a town and their only concern is trash disposal and how well their street gets plowed. They couldn't name one Selectman or town official and learn very little about how the town operates. Those are not the people I would want voting on important questions that will shape the future of the town.

We use SB2.
Ballot question in March.

The deliberative session allows for the question/answer/comment/amend without making the town meeting take all day.

SB2 does the exact same thing. And cuts all the bulls**t out.

I wasn't a resident yet, but Moultonbourough has voted 4 times for SB2 adoption, in the past and failed. Senate bill SB2 passed in 1995 and put the question on the Tuesday ballot for adoption (need a petition). Most voters probably didn't understand what SB2 is/was. In 2019 the NH legislature changed the adoption process with HB415. It changed SB2 adoption from the Tuesday ballot ... to the business session of town meeting. There will be an SB2 petition on Moultonborough's 2023 warrant. Some of us are getting ready with handouts.

SB2 vs. Traditional Meeting

FOR SB2:
SB2: A Month to Research Warrant Discussions Before Voting.
SB2: All Warrant Articles Are Voted on Tuesday Ballot, not just electing
officials, zoning, and other required by statute.
All day voting. In and out in a little while. Not hours and hours waiting
to vote.
SB2: Absentee Ballots Include ALL Warrant Articles
Snowbirds, military, and other absentees can vote on all warrant articles.
SB2: All Voting is Secret, in curtained voting booth
Traditional meeting hand, card, or paper votes intimidate some voters.


AGAINST SB2:
Fewer Attendees at SB2 Deliberative Session
There should be! Many already know how they will vote.
SB2 Does Not Allow Debate of Warrant Articles
Not true! Yes, it does, at the deliberative session. Same as traditional.
SB2 Does Not Allow Amendments to Warrant Articles
Not true! Yes, It Does, at the deliberative session. Same as traditional.
Traditional Meeting Allows For More of a Social Event.
No, it doesn't. SB2 Deliberative Session social event can be the same.
SB2 Jeopardizes the Budget
Traditional imperils the budget more. SB2 has default budget or other.

We changed from traditional to SB2 in 1996. I've been active in town government since 1990 and active in the community since 1976. We used to have huge turnout to towm meeting-three gymnasia full, connected electronically, three big monitors, One Moderator with an assistant in each gym. Worked pretty good. Now, we get ~50 attendees plus department heads. Some union members if there is a contract to vote on, but generally, you can't amend the contract already agreed to by the BOS, just vote yes or no.
The default budget is a scam. Despite attempts to clean up the process, it frequently is closely equal to or even exceeds the proposed budget. All the folks who were afraid that ballot voting would kill the expansion budgets found a way around that by being liberal with the calculation of the default budget. The budget also gets expanded by taking must haves (new roof) out of the operating budget and putting them in as separate warrant articles to make the budget look more conservative. If you like voting by mail for President, you'll love SB2.

Moultonborough has about 5,000 residents. I haven't checked this year, but usually has close to 4,000 registered voters. At a normal town meeting there's about 250-300 voters that show-up, if no rec.center on the warrant. With rec. center like what will come up in 2023, probably 500-700 voters for the first 2-3hours. After the rec.center/bond vote that must legally be voted on first, attendance will drop by @50% or more for the balance of the articles on the warrant.

The same years will have 800-1200 Tuesday voters. Tuesday voter turnout is always much greater than second session.

Which is more important? How many folks show-up for a meeting or how many actually vote! SB2 absentee votes would provide even more democracy by allowing them to vote on all articles. They can't in traditional. They pay taxes. Why not provide a vote.

Does your town have an "official budget committee" ? MoBo doesn't.

https://www.nhmunicipal.org/town-cit...sponsibilities

"Default budget'' means the amount of the same appropriations as contained in the operating budget authorized for the previous year, reduced and increased, as the case may be, by debt service, contracts, and other obligations previously incurred or mandated by law, and reduced by one-time expenditures contained in the operating budget. “One-time expenditures” are appropriations not likely to recur in the succeeding budget.

https://www.nhmunicipal.org/town-cit...ned%20in%20the

Capital expenditures, like a new roof, don't belong in the operating budget. They belong in capital reserve that has projected future costs.

If there was a way to confirm voter ID and guarantee vote integrity in mail-in ballots, I'd be all for it. However, I have no confidence it can be done. Towns can do so ... if they are well managed.

Towns and voters are different, however.

Absentee voting is voting by mail.

Absentee is voting by mail ... and does have safeguards. Must obtain ballot from the town clerk, checked by the town for voter registration, checked by the town moderator and town clerk after the election. Is anything 100% ...

Then again, maybe all the town officials are crooks!

A lot easier to falsify "in-person" voting, than by absentee ballot.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/.../657/657-4.htm

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...state_5-22.pdf

Next ....

A local, full time resident might have a medical appointment in Hanover or Boston on election day and they can vote their absentee ballot with the town clerk a day or two or three or four, earlier.

Based whose definition.

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference
Published November 3, 2022

https://www.dictionary.com/e/absente...ail-in-ballot/

By how we do it.

From your linK...

"An absentee ballot is a ballot used to cast an absentee vote, which is submitted, usually by mail, by a voter known as an absentee."
"When someone is approved to vote absentee, election officials mail the voter an absentee ballot, which they complete and sign, and return by mail or, under certain circumstances, fax"

Is this the link you mention.!

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference

Returning to the title of this thread ... HUB status in Moultonborough and
regarding the $.36/$1000 mentioned in the survey.

Found out from the source of the survey that the number is the last entry on the bond statement received by the source which is titled : FY-Est Tax Rate Inc.. Here's the last three columns (of 10) of a NH muni bond for MoBo 2022 Valuation $4,892,023,118 at 5.25% for 15 years

Fiscal yr. Total
Payment Assessed Valuation FY-Est Tax Rate Inc..
$356,085.38 $ 4,892,023,118 $0.07

My calculations seem to indicate the last number on the left is a ratio of Total Payments divided by Assessed Valuation:

($356,085.38/$4,892,023,118) X 1000 = $.072789, shortened to $ .07

Worst yet, they used the first entry (they said) which is interest only, no principal. The other columns have the interest and principal. The other columns each have a number for FY-Est Tax Rate Inc.. and seem to follow process of calculartion.

MoBo valuation this 2022 year $4,892,023,118; 2021 last year $3,943,560,976; difference $948,462,142. 24.1% Almost a billion dollars

The valuation on the bond is the same for all 15 years and does not change, not annually like our assessments and taxrate.

I'll let the reader dedcide what this has to do with "assessments" regarding the survey.

The quotes come from the link you posted.

What is it you don't understand?

Heading out for now ...
Let me know how I can help you understand.

Math is not my forte
 

Longislander, it sounds as though by their estimates, this HUB monstrosity will cost the taxpayer .07+/- per $1000 assessed value. Their figures do not take into account operating costs, which will be significant. Am I on the right track? Thanks.

I quoted your link...
Maybe you should have read it before posting it.

We have all seen how almost everything has gone up and to assume that this price won't go up if it gets out to bid is wishful thinking . Also interest rates may go up. So, whatever the estimate presented will end up going up. We need a great turnout of no voters as i assume all those in favor will be at the town meeting

The 7 cents per thousand is the estimated annual operating cost for the first year.

Am I on the right track?

Just got back from Heath's. Making a stir-fry tonight.

Yes you are correct regarding the operating costs, they are not included. However, each of the 15 years has a different Y-Est Tax Rate Inc.., since the principal or interest has yearly change.The Hub estimate is $14,243,415 and the 2022 town valuation is $4,892,023,118.

I did two bonds, one, a Level Debt bond and the other for a Level Principal bond principal $14,243,415 at 5.25% interest for 15 years. I should say they are NHMBB, NH Municipal Bond Bank bonds, not mine. The calculation for what is the last column is mine, but the number is on the bond.

Here are the numbers from the last column of the Level Debt bond: the first year is .07 but is interest only. Year two is .27, the rest of the years are .28

Here are the numbers for the Level Principal bond: .07,.34, .33,.32,.31,.30,.29,28,.27,.26, 25,.24,.23, .22, .21, and two for last year .21,.20 (Feb & Aug.)


At the end of the 15years:
Level Debt bond: total Interest $6,692,400.02
Total payments for 15 years: $20,935,815.02

Level Principal bond:total interest $5,959,762.52
Total Payments for 15 years: $20,203,177.52.

Each year has a different total.

.07/1000 of $4,892,023,118 is $342,441 the interest only for the first year only, not what it will cost per year.
The $14,243,415 cost is 29% of the present town valuation of $4,892,023,118.

I won't post here the annual costs principal and interest for each for type of bond,but I have in the bonds in PDF format. Haven't tried to post a PDF yet.

The bond will probably be more because at the 12/15/22 select board meeting it was mentioned a number of $15 mllion was going to be used. Probably another million plus in the end.

This expense should show up annually in the budget (didn't say operating cost).

No it's not. Operating costs aren't even the calculation. It is part of the building cost quote only.

The same contractor that did the $14,243,415 building estimate quoted $248,932 for total operating expense. If you believe that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell ya!

Agree.

And please stick around for a vote on SB2, since the bond has to legally be one of the first warrant articles voted on at town meeting.

No you didn't ... you quoted part of it, I suspect. I won't bother looking it up. I do read and understand the links I post. Ohhh ... that's right. You're the one that had trouble understanding "fixed" from "fixed income" when nobody else seemed to have the difficulty. Sometimes only God can help, presuming an acceptance that God exists ... not just in Google!

The portion all talk of ''mail''.
Fixed is not adjusted.

Like a ''fixed'' mortgage... the rate doesn't adjust.

SS is not fixed... it is adjusted.
And many times adjusted far beyond earned income.

It is why the kids say... ''OK Boomer''.

What the hell are you saying!

"If you build it they will come":argue:

Really?
You don't know the difference between ''fixed'' and ''adjustable''?
You didn't know that an absentee voter registration or absentee vote in NH was most likely going to go through the mail?

Do you think a resident of Moultonborough working long hard hours to earn a living and seeing low wage increases is going to have sympathy for someone that just saw a bigger increase than they did?

It would be like may stating, woe is me... I watched my $7 million dollar portfolio go down to $6.5 million. The average person, even in Moultonborough, is not going to sympathize as my ''loss''.

The Millennials know they are getting the raw end of the deal because they are not on a ''fixed'' income...

You are so confused with your opinions ...


Now add...

Repeat: What the hell are you saying?

Return to #225
 

Getting back to my original question for longislander: are we assuming costs of $.36 + $.07 = $.43 per $1000 assessed value, to include operating expenses, such as staff salaries, utilities, insurance, etc., etc.? If so, a taxpayer with a property assessed at $1,000,000 would have an annual property tax increase of $430. Am I on the right track? So many unknowns, and this is so unnecessary!

Not trying to avoid the .$036/$1000 and $.06/$1000 but... maybe I am.

The survey says!:
"$0.36/$1000 of town assessed property value?"
"$0.06/$1000 of town assessed property value?"

Definitely no, since operating costs are not part of the bond and the false .07 for intetrest only in the first year is ... is.

I'd suggest taking a different path and use the MoBo Tax Rate Breakdown;
Here goes and hope my math is correct:

Year Total =Municipal +County+ Local Ed +State Ed
2022 $ 4.78 $ =1.25+ $ 0.80 +$ 1.76 +$ 0.97

2022
Town tax rate is 1.25
Total tax rate is 4.78

The 1.25 is derived from dividing the tax effort by valuation = tax rate

For municipal rate 2022 it is $6,144,066/$4,892,023,118 X 1000 = 1.25
For total tax rate 2022 it is $23,355,110/$4862,373,529 X1000 = 4.78

Using an Amortization calculator

$15,000,000 bond for 15years @ 5.25% interest yields $120,582/month X 12 months = $1,446,984 (one year) X 15 years = $21,704,760
https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/a...on-calculator/

Add $1,446,984 to $6,144,066 = $7,591050 divided by valuation $4,892,023,118 = $ X 1000 = 1.55 new muni tax rate

Add $1,446,984 to $23,355,110 = $24,802,094 divided by valuation $4,892,023,118 =5.07 new total tax rate


To find the tax increase multiply your assessment by 4.78/1000 then multiply your assessmnet by 5.07/1000 and subtract the higher number from the lower number and that will be the dollar increase (with these numbers).

In other words subtract the present 2022 tax from the new tax and difference is the cost for that year. The added bond cost will be applied to the annual appropriation.

Check: 1.55+.80+1.76+.97 = 5.08 (close enough after rounding) new Total tax rate

Using the difference in tax rates, my tax bill would go up 21.3% if it had been done for this year.