"Right of Way" question
 

I have been coming to Lake Winnipesaukee for over 20 years and have never experienced the hostility I witnessed yesterday on July 4th. I was coming from Bear Island and heading directly over to Governors Island on our 22 ft powerboat with my two young boys to visit friends. After yielding to several boats in my starboard sector I watched as a boat and wave runner approached me from my port side. As the stand-on vessel, I held my course and speed while keeping a careful eye on them. Instead of slowing or veering behind me, they held course and passed uncomfortably close behind me and proceeded to yell obscenities and flip me off. I threw my hands up and said I had the right of way. The boat and wave runner then stopped and turned around and proceeded to follow me into shore threatening me and continuing to yell obscenities and scaring my boys. The driver suggested that I learn boating etiquette as a boat going "this way on the lake always has the right of way." I suggested that he read the manual to learn about the stand-on and give-way vessels. The wave runner approached and threatened to come over and F*!# me up. Everyone on the boat was swearing at me. At that point I could tell the "conversation" was futile and was starting to get concerned about our safety and drove away. My question is this: is there some unwritten rule on the lake about traveling in certain directions that supersedes the NH Boating handbook?

You Were Right, But.....
 

When we encounter a situation where it appears that the operator of the other vessel does not know, or chooses to ignore, the correct rule, we either alter our course, or slow down to avoid a collision. This situation happens several times a season. 🐻

^ This. Though the other operators were clearly wrong, like road rage, it's often emotional, so better to just avoid the altercation altogether.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

Always keep camera/phone handy to snap a pic of reg. Number in case of problems...it is clear they were spoiling for a confrontation ....

Yes it's called I'm DEAD RIGHT.

Take the advice of others here. Let them go by, it's simply not worth it. Conversation with them will do nothing but make things worse.

I always always remember my high school driving instructor saying you never wanna-be involved with anyone who wants to be or is 100% DEAD RIGHT

Picture it this way as well, What if you made a mistake and were DEAD WRONG. Still the same outcome.

Best thing to do, keep away from each other.

Just makes you wonder what the hell is the matter with people these days?

Be so happy when tourist season is over... and all these morons go back to what ever cesspool they came from.

Wow!!! That is a mouthful. What do you consider a tourist? Part timers or vacations. You have no way of knowing who these particular people were.

As far as this situation goes honestly I never go out on the 4th. It’s just not worth it. The lake is riddled with boaters that do not know the rules, whether residents, part timers or “tourists”.

Right of way is a huge pet peeve of mine as his boats traveling that never look behind them and zig zag all over the place without regard.

But as stated but to take corrective action to keep yourself and your passengers safe and move along.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Lack of MP presence on the lake...
Being out for just a few hours yesterday (7/5) I witnessed multiple stand-on/give-way infractions no matter where on the lake I was traveling.
It seems to me that EVERYONE ELSE out there thinks they have the right of way.
Like most, I give way to avoid disaster and no on ever waves “thanks” or acknowledges my sacrifice for their safety.
Don’t even ask me about the no wake idiots and 150’ violators...:(

I tend to be very passive in terms of giving way and almost always let the other boat stand on. That said, I also review rules as a refresher every so often and noted in the document I read recently that the give way vessel MUST give way and the stand on vessel MUST stand on unless a collision is immenent. Made me wonder if you might get a ticket for NOT standing on due to passiveness....

Head-on "right-of-way"
 

While considering the question of right of way, how is this situation handled. You are coming on another boat head on in a constricted area, each is on the other's port side. There is no danger of collision, but you don't have 150 feet of separation. You move to the right as much as you can to add space but the other boat maintains course. They could also bear right and create the required separation, but don't. You've done your part, they haven't done theirs and they are not going to slow down. Do you pull back to idle or just maintain speed?

One point of view is that the other boat is the burdened craft, as it is the only one that can change course to create a 150 foot separation. Therefore, you should maintain course. The other point of view is neither boat has right of way over the other, so you should both slow down. In no way is there a collision danger, you are just trying to comply with the local laws of separation.

I ask this because I frequently find myself slowing down in these situations and yet the boat chooses to maintain course and not slow down.

I can't wait.

I just take a deep breath and remember that they spend millions of dollars at local businesses.

Other than that, I can't stand the sight of them.

It is sad though, that they live in a state of complete a$$hole all the time. I don't get it.

Whatever is safer for your vessel and/or passengers. It's that simple, as the laws are designed for safety first.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

Maybe it's because I'm in a quieter part of the lake, but my attitude is so much different. I enjoy seeing all the boats--it's the "summer" feeling I love that only happens for, what, six weeks? I'm the guy in the high-speed highway lane doing 75. I keep a reasonable space in front of me and move when someone pulls up behind me. I shrug off idiot drivers while keeping myself safe.

Our current culture is so driven by superiority/inferiority/power/entitlement that it's more important for most to be offensive rather than defensive. These complaint threads do nothing but enrage people. Change will come only when we take the opportunity to educate about both the logistics AND the value of cordiality to ALL.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

Right of Way? Not
 

People confuse right of way with the obligation to avoid a collision. My understanding of the rules is that both boats must avoid collision and that means even though we may be the stand on vessel we must still give way to Captain Bonehead who is the give way vessel.

"When it seems like no one but you knows or follows the rules, the rules say you must give way to avoid a collision. If you exercise stand-on privilege and an accident results, you’ll be held at least partially responsible."

The only time that I am aware of that the word "right of way" has meaning is,
"§ 83.09 Narrow channels (Rule 9).
(a)

(i) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.

(ii) Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(i) of this Rule and Rule 14(a) ( § 83.14(a)), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i) ( § 83.34(a)(i)), as appropriate. The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing.

It's so frustrating, A guy did it to me the other day while tubing thru a "channel" area with a young child, I had to stop as it was apparent that he wouldn't. They'll never learn, or care, till they get a fine or someone smacks em in the jaw. But I'm too old to spend time in jail. so I'll keep letting them go. It's almost always a weekend or holiday.

old aviation right of way maxim
 

In aviation circles regarding Visual Flight Rules right of way, it has been said you can apply your right of way right up to the point of impact.

Call it defensive driving, defensive piloting, or defensive helmsmanship, it all comes down to personal safety. Be safe out there, life's to sort as it is.

Dave

I agree completely! However, it seems that the vast majority of those that are aggressive & hostile, do not want to ‘educated’ about the logistics and value of cordiality.

As the original poster stated, the aggressive party made a conscious effort follow him and threaten his safety. There was no desire for dialog. They were just aggressive and ignorant; a dangerous combination.

With regard to the head-on approach question: when vessels pass closer than 150’ they both must come to “no wake” speed. I use the “no wake” term instead of headway speed because of the NH definition which is different than most jurisdictions. And no, I’m not looking to start a new tangent!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I meant more in terms of off-the-water education. When I'm taking to friends who I've seen do bonehead things around the campfire, or people at the docks that've just struggled, I'll just bring up the conversation politely. It happened just the other day, when one of my association pals was coming into our cove at a too-high rate of speed.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

This is a very important point. Sometimes, if you do not stand on, thinking you're a nice guy, you are introducing uncertainty into the situation because the other boat no longer knows what you're going to do.

As most have eluded It's amazing the things that occur out there on the lake. My wife was swimming of the backend of the boat on the 4th on east side of little bear when some knuckle head towing a wake boarder decided he would circle around our boat at about 60 feet just as my wife was trying to be back onboard. She was then stuck hanging onto the platform when the waves from all directions hit. First time I ever actually had a bit of water come over my transom. Some People are just plane stupid and you can't fix it. We typically find ourselves out in the boat between 4-7 pm on weekends as it seems to be a bit more docile out there. The craziness really is at its worst in July. Sorry to hear you had trouble with verbal abuse from those folks. In today's world it's best not to engage people. To many crazies out there. Had I Been in your situation with guy following I likely would have taken his bow numbers and called MP

My experience is the a-hole always gets the right of way. Doesn’t matter what the regs say. Be ready to yield as the other guy won’t.

Having read the preceding 20 posts, and re-read the OP, I see some open questions.
If the OP is stand on, and the other vessel makes no course or speed correction and then passes behind the OP, then the appearance to me is that both vessels held the other on the port side. Passing behind, "uncomfortably close" is not familiar to me relative to 150 feet, but in 49 states, there is no 150 foot rule and it happens on occasion.
If they passed behind the OP and then started a conversation, it sounds like the OP may have then stopped to discuss too, otherwise he could not have understood much of the conversation.

Action to take? No matter what the other guy says, does, it is always boating etiquette to smile wave and keep on going, expecting they would do the same. (Remember when all boaters waved to each other?)
Next action? If you are verbally assaulted, there might be cause for action. Get the bow # and whatever other descriptive info you can, get on the VHF and report to MP. The value of VHF here is that others will hear and be watching. You can't do this by phone. Even if MP can't do anything immediately, they have a record, and if Captain Bonehead is reported elsewhere on the lake, doing similar things, they can often look up an address and meet him later in the day. Because MP does not have a lot of resources, does not mean they are not resourceful. I am aware of instances where a VHF report resulted in MP tracking down the other boat, confirmed stories, and giving the captain a 20 minute lesson on rules of the road.

Also sounds like the Bonehead and the Wave runner were traveling together. Bet they were at speed and not 150 feet apart, right?
Can't imagine where the idea originated about unwritten ROW rules, except on some small ponds where locals agree that skiers, etc go counter clockwise.

Years ago only Alton Bay was considered the zoo... congratulations to all the new waterfront property owners and lake users for expanding it! I no longer go to Winni because of all the non residents that bring their attitudes of it's their lake , I pay taxes and I can do what I want.

To clarify, he passed behind me within 20 feet with both boats still at speed. I was in his starboard sector until just before I passed in front of him. If I had slowed down or stopped at the last minute and he did not alter his course or speed, he would have hit me broadside. I slowed down to headway speed after the passing as I was approaching the shore and the boat and wave runner stopped, turned around and followed me in to dish out some verbal abuse. They were so close at that point, that I could not ignore them and had to engage. Yes, they were traveling together and were not 150 ft apart.

I have taken several things away from this unpleasant experience. One, when I do venture away from where we live in the quieter part of the lake, I will anticipate issues like this on weekends and holidays and be much more likely to yield even if I am the stand-on vessel. Two, if confrontation is unavoidable I will take a picture or video and get on the VHF to MP. And three, I will rethink my typical policy of giving people the benefit of the doubt and assuming they are reasonable unless proven otherwise, at least when it comes to boating on Winni.

Thank you for all the responses and suggestions. C2P

Unfortunately it is not just the non-residents “who bring their attitudes of it’s their lake”


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Please do not mix everyone into a single bowl. As I stated before unless your taking a poll of each boat on the lake and know who is not abiding by the laws they is no possible way you can accused one or the other with certainly


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I don't think the rules of the road were the major problem in this incident.

"The wave runner approached and threatened to come over and F*!# me up."

That sounds to me like Criminal Threatening.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/.../631/631-4.htm

I would have taken note of the bow number and called 911.

Let me tell you about the time I was rowing my dinghy with two kids and my wife out from Rattlesnake Is. to my boat that was anchored ~90' off the island shore. We had the pleasure of experiencing a captain who couldn't be bothered to steer out to the Broads and around my boat.....no, instead he felt it prudent to cut directly between us and my boat.

Only reason I bit my tongue was because of the kids.

Slightly off topic, but is MP responding to VHF these days? On the 4th I heard someone hailing MP on CH16 with no response.

Agreed, simple common sense. Seems like everybody wants to complicate everything. I find watching the "idiots" entertaining sometimes, depending on what they're doing. I saw people tubing in the broads on a pretty rough day this year. The kids were getting POUNDED, looked like rag dolls bouncing up and down. I thought maybe they were being punished for something...!! Maybe I'm just getting old, but it didn't look real fun at all!! I'm not usually in a hurry when I'm on the boat, so if I'm on a collision course with someone that won't give way, I just slow down, or change my course, whatever circumstances allow. If I had someone following me, threatening me, I would just put the phone to my ear and let them know that I'm calling MP, and if they go away, I hang up, if they don't go away, then I will make the call for real and try to keep my distance till MP arrives. It's hard to believe that people can get that mad in such a situation, seemed pretty harmless to me by your description, yes a holes, but not a life threatening situation. Makes me wonder if alcohol was involved. Imagine if there were no lines painted on the roads...

I agree with this, The only action you can really take is to get the bow # and report it. the ass will never admit fault or apologize when there's a shouting match.

Tourists are the people who don't know the rules and follow people to threaten them after they screwed up. They also are the ones throwing up huge wakes close to shore.

I generally like tourist season but Its always good when they're gone

I completely disagree. There are plenty of rule breaking arrogant residents . Again you have no way of knowing where the rule breakers reside you are merely speculating. Is a tourist just a person on vacation or includes part timers because a know part timers on a person level that abide strictly by the rules and others that could care less.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

And I believe in NH, in 2017...
 

Everybody has the right to carry concealed weapons without a permit? And I see no requirement for training...Water rage!

Gonna hav'ta carry my 12 gauge next to my life preserver. Or is that going to become life preserver squared on the wata?

And you know this how? Intensive study & research?


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

It's my experience, I've discussed it with my neighbors many times and we all agree. Just Friday night coming out to the island I had a guy with a loaded pontoon boat blow right in front of me from my port side without a clue. He was clearly a tourist based on his set up. You can tell the difference many ways. Not trying to sound like I'm better than anyone else it's just how it is. I accept it.

Get a concealable pistol or revolver...much less hassle than a shotgun...!:D

So basically, you are making it up based on no facts because it fits your narrative. (sounds like someone else in the news a lot). Just what does a “tourist” set up look like?


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Bear Islander and Descant gave good advice. If it reached the point of being threatened I would call MP on your radio, giving the bow # of the offending boat so that others will be aware. Very good chance that drinking was involved.......wouldn't it be fun to watch the capt bonehead taking a field sobriety test.

It's been a widely discussed topic on this forum for many years. Sorry if I'm offending you not my intent. I will say this between memorial and labor day's due to the increase in boat traffic the number of times I get cut off dramatically increases although I don't track stats. The economy is good lots of boats this year, that other guy just may be doing something right.

Maybe the better way to say this is that there are those operators out there who leave much to be desired in both how they conduct themselves as well as operate a vessel. That's not to say that all tourists fit into the category of being unsafe, obnoxious, or otherwise jerks, but the odds of running across those that conduct themselves in this manner greatly increases during the prime of the season, when the greatest concentration of tourists exists. So yes this does tend to make a broad assumption but I would assert that while not all tourists fit this description those that do are likely tourists.

Just curious how others define tourist. Seems like pretty much anyone with island property is a tourist as most of us are residents elsewhere, as are many on the mainland. There are a lucky few who live on the lake year round, but I’m guessing most come here from somewhere else.

As for me, I have over 50 summers on the island on property I own. I bet I have more years on the lake than most (and yes, others are way ahead of me but I’m trying to catch up!), but I’m still from somewhere else. Does this make me a tourist? I’m certainly not a resident, a fact I’m reminded of every time the town votes to spend more money and increase my taxes and I don’t have a vote...

Good question. I’ve only been on the island 1/2 as long as you and I am sure I’m still considered a tourist by locals.

Bad boating probably increases proportionally with the number of boats whether they be weekly vacationers, new property owners, summer home owners, or truly long timers who think they own the lake thru heritage.

As far as bad boating goes let me paraphrase: let he who hasn’t been a “bad boater” at some point cast the first stone


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

So you are the ONE who still believes the "news"...??

This is perfect timing. I'm a *perfect* boater 99% of the time, but yesterday, while coming across to Hole in the Wall from The Graveyard, I was focusing on the chop and boats coming from the Barber's Pole when I noticed a boat coming up on my starboard. I'd gone farther towards his path than he felt safe (300' or so, but moving fairly quickly), and he went around me. 9 times of 10, I'd have given way and the law/etiquette would've been followed, but this was the one time (this season, at least) that I messed up.

In short, I could be one of the "tourists" being complained about!

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

I remember a night when I was much younger, headed to the Weirs with a boat full of beautiful girls I so wanted to impress. I ended up being so distracted I managed to hit light buoy #1 dead on. Definitely a tourist that night - and my passengers were not impressed!

I agree. Nobody is perfect, we ALL make mistakes from time to time. The problem is that we live in a crybaby, sissified, ENTITLEMENT society where everybody just wants everything to suit themselves ALL the time, and if it doesn't, they cry, bitch, and moan about EVERYTHING that's NOT going their way. Spoiled rotten ungrateful bunch of people that can't appreciate all we have in this great country. GET OVER IT. It's NEVER going to be the way "you" want it. Live, and let live. No matter how good we have it, people still find something to complain about, CONSTANTLY. It's unreal to me. For this reason, I believe the military should be mandatory for every male upon graduation from high school to the service of his choice for at least 2 years of active duty. I did 4years of active duty in the service and saw MANY 3rd world countries first hand, and I can't even begin to emphasize the appreciation for this country that that experience gives you. It will humble ANYONE, from ANY walk of (American) life, and trust me, wanting to "kiss the ground" upon arrival back to this great, beautiful country , is not just a "myth", it is an HONOR!! I got out of the service in 1986, and still to this day, not a day goes by that I don't think about being back in the service, and just how fortunate I am to be a proud American in the greatest country in world history. This society we live in today needs a good hard dose of the same exact thing I got, (reality), from the military. Sorry, don't mean to rant, just strikes a nerve with me.

Just to be clear I'm not throwing stones just stating my observations. I would consider most paying property taxes a non- tourist they also avoid the town docks during peak periods. They also use a boat in October, stuff like that. I know the full timers have another perspective, to each their own. Wolfeboro is an exception unless you are the third generation living there your / I'm a tourist.

I was headed to 19 Mike Bay on Friday in the wind and was paying more attention to where I was going and counterbalancing the wind then what was around me and probably moving too fast for the conditions. I looked up and discovered that I had crossed the bow of a boat (about 100 ft away) coming out from between Chase & Farm. I was totally in the wrong. I hit a wave and took the spray full in the face and was soaked. Someone was meeting out bonehead Justice!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I think every person should have to serve not just males. It doesn’t have to be just the military, either. There are countless public service opportunities that instill lessons of discipline and responsibility that will benefit all.

I’ve been a school administrator for a couple decades - in each school I have been in I have implanted regular time for students to clean and take care of their school. I’ve had far more support than push back - and from my experience students treat the whole school better when they know they are responsible for maintaining it.

Funnier version....sort of
 

My bad boater of the day today was friendly. I was fishing with trolling motor running in spot lock mode when 2 pwcs came into the same bay on their way home. This bay has a mouth about 500 yds wide. I was the only other watercraft in the bay. the pwcs both slowed...because...they felt they needed to pass within 30 ft of me, and directly over the spot I was fishing. I did get a wave from the mom & kid on pwc #1, only got a wee bit of wake from the following girls. Just completely bizarre. I am confounded on what mix of rudeness, ignorance, oblivoiusness this was. But I did get a wave & smile at least. Maybe I was on their fishing hole?
BTW they sure looked like lakers and not like generic tourists.

There’s no other explanation other than pure ignorance in this case. In fact, the way they smiled and waved at you while completely disregarding law and your fishing space dictates this perfectly...ignorance is bliss!

property rights
 

Garcia:
May I interject this thought as was stated to us when we lived on Cape Cod by the owner of the dealership where I bought my boat.
One member of the family should establish residence and therefore has a voting right on that property in that town. Found to be good advice and eliminates the feeling that we are being taken advantage of in this situation.

---------------------------------------------------

I am a retired workaholic and continuing aquaholic

Dude...
 

You might want to read this back to yourself.
Just saying....

Just saying what? Am I supposed to be able to read your mind? Complaining about the complainers??? I detest ingrates. They make me sick to my stomach. Are you an ingrate?

Back in Coast Guard O.C.S., which, I'm ashamed to say, was fifty years ago, we were taught several unwritten rules-of-the-road which I still heed to this day.

• You don't want the right of way because the other Bozo may not know the rules-of-the-road. It's better to maneuver around them instead of wondering if they are going to maneuver around you.
• Ferry boat operators interpret the rules-of-the-road to their own advantage. They have schedules to keep.
• Men in over-powered boats with a scantily-clad co-pilot think they are God's gift to the high seas.

That was harsh - no need for that tone here. Just sayin.....

I detected sarcasm in his words because he didn't have the stones to just speak his mind, so I'm just playing along with his word games... He can set me straight if I am wrong.

^^^

Say something nice......just once.

^ This.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

Does not matter where people reside, there are good and bad boat operators from all over and to assume the place you register your car has anything to do with how well you can operate a boat is ridiculous.

The problem is not "tourists", it's math. The reason it may seem like the "tourists" are causing all the bad interactions is that during the height of boating season, the chances of interacting with other boat operators (good or bad) increases exponentially due to the huge number of boaters on the lake. The reason it's exponential and not linear has to do with the fact that when you are forced to adjust course or speed for one collision course on a crowded day, you may end up causing another collision course for boats that were not initially involved, and then the required course/speed adjustments that those other boats make may trigger more collision courses for yet other boats, and so on. I don't just mean crossing situations when I say "collision course" either. It's more often than not catching up to someone on the same course but at a slower speed that causes a collision course on a lake like ours that has a ton of navigationally-necessary choke points.

On a weekday in May, odds are good you are seeing a few terrible operators, but they aren't close enough to be a problem so you would never know just how clueless they are.

It's really not that big a deal to occasionally have to adjust your speed or course when you are technically the stand-on boat. I usually just let something like that ruin a week or two, not my whole Summer. Boat ramp faux pas, however, are pure evil and should be capitol crimes. ;)

Very wise words.

One thing that may have gotten lost since the OP is that a man and two young boys were trying to have a nice time on the lake and were treated atrociously. Please let me express some sympathy and solidarity.

Dave R nailed it! sometimes you have 11 boats coming from 7 different directions, People will bitch about one of them with out taking into consideration what he's trying to do to avoid the others. It's hard to judge someone without seeing it. Except when they follow you and threaten.

It was battle of the morons out there last week. Most seem to not know the rules nor care to learn them OR perhaps knows rules but cares not to follow them. Either leaves the rest of us to give way regardless of the circumstances. Wet bikes are the worst especially in paugus after the channel.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I believe that what kawishiwi was pointing out is that more than half of your original post was complaining about other Americans and our society.

But those complaints are paired with your admonition to live and let live and your plea for people to be grateful for our society.

By voicing the complaints so vehemently, it does not appear that you live and let live or that you are grateful for our society.

Also, before responding with personal barbs, neither kawishiwi nor I have said that either your criticisms or advice are wrong, only that they appear to be in conflict with each other. If you read the post again, with a cooler head, I think you'll see it.

Since "Right of way" is the topic I thought I would add what I think is a useful piece of information that a ferry boat captain in Boston Harbor shared with me.

If you can see the approaching boat's port light (which of course is red) stop. That vessel has the right of way.

"Stop" of course is probably not necessary, but has meaning when associated with the "red" port light.

Makes sense for night boating!

It all boils down to how uncaring, disrespectful, uncivilized and self righteous people have become! You take your life in your hands just going down the road or for a boat ride... civility has become a thing of the past! While I do agree not everyone should be put into this category, most are. I've never worried about who had the right of way , either on the water or the road... I'll slow down and give the other the ROW! Maybe that defensive driving course I took years ago should be required for everyone today! I see posts were "jokingly" some suggest bringing guns with them... I don't consider even joking about this a joke or even the post where one suggested he'd bring out a firearm because someone was retrieving a lure on his property and he was upset because he wasn't asked and felt disrespected. Man has this country and its people devolved into a darkness I never believed would happen... then again I know... it's all one big joke!:(