Pier 19 Country store closed easy access to public boat ramp
 

The owners of Pier 19 Country Store have decided that the general boating public should not have easy access to the Pier 19 boat ramp. They have put up four large orange barrels at the entrance by the gas docks and four large barrels at the boat ramp entrance. Good luck trying to launch a boat. There isn't any room. The pier 19 ramp is basically closed down.

Is that a public ramp? I think I would choose to no longer support them if they're playing games like that.

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Do you know why the barrels are there? Maybe they are going to improve the ramp in coming days. Just a thought.

No it is a spite thing with the store owners and the dock association. Lot of friction there. Sent from my SM-T387V using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Yes, it is a public ramp. If you want to launch you will have to back in from the street. Good luck with that.


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I hope you're wrong. Association folks, friends and family should be their low hanging fruit as far as customers go. I know for a fact that we along with friends and family spent over $2,500 in 2020 including gas. I am sure other members spend considerable cash with them too. Why tick us members off? Why tick off the boating public? Must be another reason for the barrels. Time will tell.

Pine Cone
 

We'll be doing our shopping at the Pine Cone store forth with.

I hate to see any boat ramp closed, however if it is privately owned then the true owner does have the option to do with it as they see fit.

However, the docking situation over there has always been questionable as to who owns what..... I had heard the story (no idea if it is true) that at one time many years ago the store owned all the boat docking spaces but over the years have sold them off to islanders to generate cash. Did they sell the ramp? Do they own the ramp or does the Town of Tuftonboro own the ramp? Anyone in the know really know for sure?

With that said, if the store does own the ramp then maybe he/she is willing to let folks use the ramp "for a fee", or maybe it is under repair to fix potholes.

The speculation continues......

The only private launch ramp at Pier 19 is one owned by the association it is to the left of the public ramp which is next to the public dock.

The store turned the boat slips and the two docks into a condo I believe in the 80’s. The store is part of the condo. I think the store sold the last condo slip in the 90’s and since then both docks have been owned by the condo boat owners. I think they had a deal with the previous store owner that traded docking space on the dock next to the public dock for parking and other considerations. When the store closed the association put in gates to protect their members boats. I guess the new owners have not wanted to work with the association to continue the relationship. And from what I hear they are not living up to the terms of the condominium documents.

Don’t understand why you would want to fight with the people who should be your best customers and now alienate the people who would normally launch their boats there.


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Store does not own ramp, it is a town ramp.

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For those of us "donkeys", where is this?

Tuftonboro.

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Hee Haw, I mean, thank you...

Changing paradigm?
 

As a boomer growing up I recall how there were a lot of cabin colonies and with them folks visiting for a short amount of time.

Seems to me that the new paradigm is for folks to own and not rent / visit.

Right or wrong?

It’s a town ramp. The ramp is open. The store owns the area where people pull in to rig up. Not much you can do. We launched there tonite with no problem but the guy doing the truck work to get the boat down the ramp has be good. Not much margin of error for a rookie. You have to use about a lane and a half of the road.

Weird behavior, unless they have a specific use in mind (and are sure they will prevail). I wonder if this is related to their airplane effort?

Pier19
 

I think the board of association activities are the reason for blocking the access
The owner of the front parcel is the store and the board and members of association don’t want to recognize that.
The blocking has nothing to do to public.

The store seems to be instigating a lawsuit. The boat slip members have an easement over that property that is now blocked off, and impeding access to the members is a violation. Beyond me why the store doesn’t see the 50 households that have slips as their most important customers and would do something like this.

I have been a member of this forum since 2004 and have been boating on the lake since the early 80's. I live in Tuftonboro and have known both the Rich's and the LeRoux's. We have met the new store owners and also know many of the boatslip owners at Pier 19.

After reading your post, I would like to ask for some clarification. Would you please explain the "board of association activities" you're referring to. It would be interesting to have some insight into what you are referring to.

For over 30 years, the boatslip owners and the store owners have always been able to abide by the condominium documents and have been able to peacefully coexist and I'm confused as to why that relationship has changed.

Since both the boatslip owners and store owners are part of the same association, I couldn't imagine that the condominium documents wouldn't allow the boatslip owners have the legal right to access their boatslips by crossing land, that is part of the condo association (even though it is owned by the store). In the past, the store owners have always allowed them to drive to the docks to load and unload and then park their vehicle in their association assigned parking space, on the other side of Route 109. My guess is that the new store owners no longer wish to extend that courtesy to their fellow association members and unfortunately, the public has become collateral damage.

Had the two sides just had a better form of communication, maybe all of this could have been avoided. As an example, had the boatslip owners been made aware of the store's actions in applying for a seaplane base and ice runway permit, instead of being blindsided just as the selectmen, townspeople and boatslip owners were, maybe there would be less friction. And if the boatslip owners would just be willing to respect the fact that the land near the boat docks is owned by the new store owners (even though it is part of their association) and be willing to carry all of their belongings to and from their parking space to the docks, the new store owners might look more favorably on the boatslip owners.

Hopefully, the two sides will soon be able to work things out and we can all go back to the way things have always been.

Two problems with your last paragraph:
1) The boat slip owners own the launch ramp and “unrestricted access” to it. It is now locked off in clear violation of the condominium documents.
2) Not only do the boat slip owners have “unrestricted access” to their docks according to the condo documents but, that section of the storeowners property has essentially been an unrestricted public way for over 30 years.

I believe there is law that basically says you cannot suddenly block access a parcel like that.

Maybe one of our legal scholars can chime in.


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JW--I know none of the folks involved, so nothing to go on but this forum. Even your even-handed post makes the store owners seem like less than ideal neighbors (planes, blocking, no communication). I don't quite see what the other condo members have done to antagonize store. Am I missing something?

For clarity, what is being referred to here is that the association owns a second boat launch that is next to the town pier/launch for the association members’ private use.

The association documents state that the boat slip owners have “the complete and absolute right to have access over Parcel “A” [the blocked off area] to said docks and wharves or to said boat launch for any and all purposes.”

Any suggestion that the boat slip unit owners only have walking access over this area is belied by the fact that there is the boat launch that can only be used with vehicles, and that the documents provide that the boat slip owners have access over this “for any and all purposes.”

One need not resort to the doctrine of adverse possession to establish the boat slip owners’ unrestricted rights to use the blocked off area with vehicles to drop off, load/unload, or use the boat launch—that is what “for any and all purposes” would cover. The doctrine of adverse possession is in general difficult to establish, and would require going to court to establish the claim. It requires 20 years of continuous, adverse use without the owner’s permission. But, as noted, there is no need to resort to this because the documents clearly give the boat slip owners the right to have unrestricted access, including for vehicles.

For you 'Donkeys'
 

There are three sides to this story, the store owner(s), the slip association, and the legal document providing easements. Almost always the legal document prevails. Why I say almost, it is subject to interpretation as any unscrupulous lawyer will tell you.

The latest I have heard is the owners are claiming they blocked access because they are concerned about vehicles driving over the gas tank. Wasn’t the tank replaced within the past few years? In other northeast states a PE has to sign off on the install plans & as builds. Does NH have this requirement? I can’t believe a PE would sign off on a design for the install of a tank in an area transited by cars and trucks unless could bear their weight without failing. Also, if the tank was their concern why did they put the barrels so close to the public launch? Why not just around the pad?


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One thing I would like to know is there anything in the Condo Assoc. Docs that say the Marina will offer docking space for temp tie ups for islanders and such so that they may access the store.

The other clause about dock owners having access to the parking area is very clear. The store is in violation of that right.

On another note, the "prison gates" that the marina installed are the ugliest thing I have ever seen. They do nothing to keep folks off the docks. They are very easily bypassed. Remove them. Offer space for temp tie ups and I bet the barricades will disappear. A little cooperation can go a long way.

Just my two cents.

The answer is no. The docks are entirely private, and the gates were installed because there was theft and damage to boats in the marina. There are also liability issues for the private property to be open to the public.

It is also interesting to note that prior store owners, years ago, actually owned that portion of the dock that was used for store customers, but sold it to the boatslip owners. No question the boatslip owners have the right to put gates in.

The prior owners made a deal with the boat slip owners to rent the dock for public use. The new owners bought AFTER the gates were installed, and are obviously trying to leverage what they are wrongfully doing to force the association to open those docks without any arrangement to use that private property or to address the liability and theft issues. There are ways a deal could be done if both sides wanted to, but why would the boatslip owners open those gates and subject themselves to these issues just to help the store out when the store does stuff like this?

It seems fairly obvious the new store owners either didn’t understand their store was just a unit in a condo association, or didn’t care, and have been poking the association constantly for things they are not entitled to under the condo documents.

Good information to know. Thanks Cow Times. It seems the store is being unreasonable. Either their way or the highway. This is not going to end well for the business. I won't patronize them.
And don't even get me started on their proposal for the seaplane base.
That must be stopped. The town of Tuftonboro should have a say in that.

This following post was taken from I boat Winnipesaukee forum. It tells the real story.
"I would like to jump in and clarify a few things. I HAVE skin in this game, as one of the original owners of a Pier 19 dock. We once had an agreement with the previous store owners to allow use of our North pier in payment of rent. They stopped paying. In the meantime we have had multiple issues with non-owners on the docks with belligerent, rude behavior and causing damage and theft to the slip owners boats. I for one received a tankful of water in my gas tank in return. Caused serious damage to my engine and the boat never ran very well after. I had to buy a new engine.

Because previous store owner stopped paying rent for our dock space, and to assure peace of mind for dock owners we had to make a very difficult decision to gate our docks. It was a difficult decision and some members didn't want to. But the liability was to great. At our last annual meeting and the new store owner attended the meeting because they are part of the association In fact they are a member of the board of Directors. But refuse to admit that they are. But at our meeting we ALL voted to keep the docks gated.

I want all of you FOLKS with your false opinions about this to just think...
These docks were and are a huge investment to allow us to get to our homes, Yes, OUR Homes. We have a right to protect our investment and to feel safe in doing so.
I also have a right to not be confronted by threatening, entitled, non-members while trying to get to my home.
We are not the only condo that limits public access to our docks for very much the same reasoning. It is unfortunate that we have to deal with this.
PLEASE stop with baseless lies about us. Unless you are an owner, or a member you don't know the real story and the TRUTH!

Barrels have been moved
 

Just to give everyone an update. The barrels have been moved by the store owners. They are still in place but now allow room to maneuver.
Thank you!!

Can you, or someone, clarify which docks are included in this? Specifically, is the wharf/leftmost finger included?

Also, and I may have missed this, is the ramp public or part of the association?

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There are two ramps there, one public owned by the town of tuftonboro which almost everyone uses and one private ramp for the dock owners use. They are both only a few feet apart. There used to be a gate across the private ramp but that went missing over the winter, imagine that!

As you look from the road, the Right most finger ( Wharf ) belongs to the town, beside it is a boat ramp that also belongs to the town....

Just to the left of the town ramp, is a private paved and locked ramp that belongs to the Dock association. Then of course the docks of the association...

If your on the lake, you are correct it is the leftmost finger........

I have been waiting for issues like this to happen. People got very greedy in the 80s.... Many docks went condo, and to do so their where many questionable, associations formed. Pier 19 being one of them.... What we are seeing is a pure power struggle....

In order for Pier 19 to be a viable business, they need dock space. And more of it then the Town wharf can provide....So it appears that the owners are doing what they can to try and force the dock owners to open back up part of the dock that is not used, and was rented previously by the store.

Someone mentioned that the slip owners have a right of way to get to the docks across the store property, and while that is true, does said right of way, detail that it has to be accessible by automobile?

As for the assertion that the strip of land has been open to the public for use for decades, well yes that is true, but it is private property which the owner, can chose to change his mind and deny access too......

At the end of the day, I see lawyers making money, not really anyone else. Peir19 has been doomed since it let the slips go condo, and then to not pay rent on a section of dock that was really needed for the business to attempt to thrive probably sealed its fate......

Ultimately both the Slip Association, and the Pier 19 Retail Property are both going to loose out I am afraid, if they don't find a way to get to some sort of arrangement.....

As for the gates, While I understand the why..... honestly? if someone is planning to go damage some boats, the gates will not stop them..... I think that association would have been better off working with the Store to install some sort of video surveillance system.....

Anyway I am tired of rambling here, tired of hoping Pier 19 would some how find its way back to the lime light it once had, doesn't look like that will happen.... So the only reason to go over their now, is to see if the rooster makes it back to farm island this summer.

Anyone happen to know the current price of gas at Pier 19....?

This strikes me as one of those disappointing situations where both sides have dug in and refused to try to find a middle ground. Instead of condo owners saying “we’re keeping our shark cage style gates come hell or high water” and the store owner responding by asserting property rights over land previously shared at no cost, they should work together to find a fair solution.

I think the middle ground is that the gates stay but with the gate on the formerly rented dock modified to be unlocked automatically during store hours. Since that may require electricity being brought to the gate, it could be further modified to include a security camera. The store owner pays all costs for modifications but has the amount credited against an agreed rent. Everyone wins, condo association collects rent which should lower dues. Store owner has more space to offer to customers. Slip owners that have to deal with non members on their dock get the added security of knowing who is causing the trouble.

What about this suggestion. Since the store owners are requesting from the town authorities and state officials to have a seaplane base at the Pier 19 gas dock. How about extending the seaplane dock and sharing it with a seaplane and their boat customers. This will add needed boat dockage for boaters going to their store. It would also relieve the pressure for the town to modify the town docks. The town already has stated publicly that it does not support any commercial traffic on the 19 mile bay wharf. This idea to help support the store has been suggested just recently and has gotten traction. But why are they wanting a seaplane base in 19 mile bay? That suggestion has caused more social media negative comments than what they are trying to do with blocking off the ramps

Boycott Pier 19 Store!

Would it be accurate to guess that you have never attempted to obtain permits to expand a docking facility on the lake?

It will obviously take some time and for that reason the store owners should be looking into this already since even if the town allows them to use the town owned wharf which is a long shot that wharf is scheduled for rebuild in the near future so long story short it most likely would not be readily available anyway. IMO the addition to the current gas dock is the best long term option.

$3.89


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To clarify, at the last Association meeting (the one where the idea of opening the north dock was voted down) the association board of directors suggested that the store owner put together a few ideas that would make opening the dock something the owners would consider. Ideas like that suggested by TFP maybe adding swapping parking spaces for the docking space lost by the owners. The members also offered to hold a special meeting to consider these proposals.

As far as I know, no proposals were received. Instead the store owner decided to block access.

To those of you who think the boat slip owners are being obstinate, nonsense! They are only asking that the storeowners live up to their obligations under the condo documents and agreements which are part of the deeds for all condo owners. I think the slip owners would consider negotiation but it has to start with the store owner who cannot continue to treat the condo documents like they don’t exists.


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No.... not accurate

Just as an aside, we have no skin in the game for the dock or boats, but my husband went to the store this week to pick up 2 items.

There are 2 registers there, 1 was in use. The woman in front of him had a massive order of items, hundreds of dollars, and he waited patiently as this customer kept apologizing while he reassured her he was in no rush. Meanwhile, the owner was present, straightening T-shirts, walking around, etc-

It was a 15-20 minute order, and he was wondering why the owner didn't offer to open up the other register for his 2 items. I am wondering the same thing- we're residents and I feel like I'd rather drive the other 4 miles to Pine Cone from now on. Am I wrong to think this way~

Adding to any docks on the lake is almost impossible. You can apply but will most likely be turned down.

If you have 300 to 374 feet of frontage you are allowed 5 boat slips. Although I have driven by, the last time I went by boat to the Pier 19 store was about 1997. My recollection is that there are many more slips than that. I do not know what the frontage is.

My point was, you just can't add docks when you want to. I have no doubt that more docks would be helpful but I think the possibility of getting more docking is slim.

I'm also close to both stores, and I think you're reasonable. The Pine Cone may be small, but it's a great store and restaurant, and the people are always nice. I've only been to the new Pier 19 a handful of times, but most times there's some sort of quirky irritating thing--similar to your experience--that makes me wish I was someplace else.

It is done all the time, just takes a bit of effort and of course time. Dealing with the State on anything can be trying especially adding docks. There is room for expansion of the existing gas dock at pier 19, hope the owners are going through the process to do so as it will benefit them in the long run.

I got one better than that... as part of the agreement the town ramp should be improved to include the necessary area to launch, prepare for launch , and maintain permanent public access for launching and retrieving of boats or items to be brought or retrieved from the lake. Feel free to add to this...

I think you’ll find that any expansion of the existing gas dock will result in the expansion running outside the property line extended and in front of state owned or state right-of-way land. My last interaction concerning a revised dock was that it had to be, if I remember correctly, more that 10 ft inside my property line extended.


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It would be helpful if someone could attach a photo of the ramp / barrels for the benefit of out of area viewers, thanks.

Done all the time. Interesting.

Can you name a few of the places that had additional docks approved above the state approved guidelines?

I never said approved above state guidelines, perhaps we misunderstood each other. Sent from my SM-T387V using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I guess we did misunderstand each other.

Please enlighten me. What is done all the time?

Adding docks? Above the number set forth by the state for the existing frontage?

Municipal?
 

My understanding is that both Wolfeboro and Laconia (Weirs) are working with DES for dock reconfigurations. The final plan may or may not add linear footage, but should improve efficiency. DES is not generally opposed to this. I think commercial marinas and municipalities are looked at with a different perspective than residential docks, especially when there is an existing facility that needs improvement.

Adding docks with state permission is possible. I believe west Alton marina is doing this.Sent from my SM-T387V using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

The reason why is because they want to run scenic tours via sea plane of the surrounding area and operate out of 19 mile bay.

So while on paper and in principal it sounds like not much activity will go on in there suggesting landing will be with permission only and the number of planes will be limited, one plane doing say hour long tours will be a fair amount of traffic in and out.

The only reason I can think of on why the store owner wants to start up seaplane tours is money. And, one plane may turn into more.


There's an old Arab proverb, that if a camel is allowed to get it's nose inside of a tent, it will be impossible to prevent the rest of it from entering.

Interesting times for 19 Mile Bay.

But did you know who is giving permission for a seaplane to land. The owner of the store. Really?! She is in the store all day. She has very little view of the lakefront especially how many boats are in the whole approved seaplane landing strip in 19 mile bay. Will she be trained? Will they hire a waterfront director to direct Seaplane traffic. The reason she wants this seaplane base is to attract more people to the store. Why would she want to tell a incoming pilot not to land? She wants them to land. More she lets in the more will be going to her store to buy ice cream. Choke!!

The ice cream rationale is also kind of funny--so four or five people an hour buy a total of $20 worth of ice cream? This is an awful lot of trouble for an awfully small reward--Bailey's Bubble does that every few minutes

Your opposition seems to be overpowering your sense of perspective. Nobody in the store will be acting as an air traffic controller. Safe landing and take-off is up to the pilot, as well described in earlier posts. "Permission" usually would involve prior arrangement.

How do you propose this? Where is the “area” going to come from?

Actually, if you read the state permit and the letter the store owner does have to give her permission for individual pilots to use the permitted lake & ice runway. Seems crazy but, if FAA agrees, it will be a private seaplane base & ice runway.

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But they need a place to dock their planes. We can and should do everything possible to stop them from using the town owned Union Wharf.

Sorry but you are wrong. I heard the presentation by the pilot and presenter Tom Wood who is pleading his case. He said "the pilots will call the store owner to get clearance". It is on video! That alone.. he lost me and I was dumfounded. Won't you be?

We're in the wrong thread, but that's basically what I expected-you c all ahead.

I'm sorry... Are you saying call ahead... that the air traffic controller is going to be the store owner who spends most of her time back in the kitchen. From the store view you only can see the gas docks and out to maybe Farm Island. She would not have an perspective what boat traffic is occurring in the state approved landing strip. This is a mess... who in the State and FAA approved of this nonsense?