New Dive Location?
 

The owners of the Dive want to construct their own dock attached to the city owned dock in Weirs Beach

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...cd688ed72.html

So what's the Dive's plan for this Summer? (ignoring Covid-19 for this discussion)

Even if they get town approval they still need DES approval, appeal periods, etc. Then need to build it. I think it is a solid idea but the timing for this summer will be nearly impossible I would think. Was there discussion about letting them use the end dock that is at the Wiers now or just parking on the "inside" of the docks and side load for this season?

Is there any drawing of the proposed plan?

side note: the city is good at getting people to pay for things, maybe the can widen the docks so you can fit more than two boats inbetween the slips to utilize the whole slip:D:laugh::D

I don’t get it. The dive pays $100k to build the pier & run utilities, deeds it to the city, and a counselor says $250/month isn’t enough?


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.... what's the location?
 

So, where is this proposed new 'The Dive' dock located? Is it at the Winnipesaukee Pier which is privately owned, or is it to replace the public boat docks that are closer to the sandy beach and Weirs channel?

This news article doesn't say where it will be, but it sounds likes it would replace some of the public, City of Laconia, boat docks. Believe there are about five public docks with room for two boats each/per side, and is common to hear complaints about these docks being too close together.

So, by building it on public docks, it will essentially turn the public docks area into private business, commercial restaurant/bar use, and the whole dock area will become one big, outdoor, drinking establishment. It would probably be a busy new location, and the state liquor store will sell a lot of adult beverages at wholesale prices to The Dive.

If Laconia wants to turn their Weirs dock area into a dive bar, then it should give the green light to The Dive. .... :cheers:

From that location it's a bit of a long walk to either the public rest room building on the sandy beach, or the public rest room at the Mount Washington ticket window building.

Does the new dock construction include a public rest room?

Not to derail the conversation before it even gets started but Laconia could apply for a BIG grant and get 200k or more to fix the docks (this is available every year for NH). They just chose not to and they are aware it exists. Tier 2 is also available yearly but goes up to several million dollars. This is federal money.

To my knowledge, no one in NH has ever taken advantage of it. They were trying to get fish and game to administer it but looks like they settled on DES.

https://www.des.nh.gov/organization/.../big-grant.htm

Foiled...
 

I read the subject line for this thread and got all excited about a potential new dive site. As in SCUBA.

Oh well.

:(

I would assume that the Weirs docks that already exist are only possible because of some sort of grandfathering. Does The Dive believe that somehow there is an endless amount of square footage that the town can add? This is the latest of their interesting ideas that seem half-baked when taken from the oven.

I hope shore things can offer insight here.

I would prefer they do the docks over and add space for more boats to visit the boardwalk. I think it would benefit the area more than a new dock for the Dive, JMO.

Dock Space
 

While I am a proponent of the Dive, I am curious how this would affect the current dock space at the Weirs...

In the past if you were visiting the dive at a sand bar you would anchor and swim to or get dropped off then anchor and swim to the dive.

Would boaters visiting the dive now utilize all the Weirs dock space allowing no space for boats visiting other establishments at the Weirs??

Just thinking out loud...

Dan

Agree they should be replaced. However, if you were to replace them, bringing them up to today’s standards and requirements would cost more then 200k.


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Am I the only one who avoids the Weirs because of wave action pounding the boats at the docks?

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It is rough over there at times, but I avoid mostly because the docks are terribly designed (lots of threads about them so I wont elaborate). I would rather ride a motorcycle to the Weirs and a boat to Meredith:)

Weirs-- bouncing at docks
 

I've never felt that was a problem. Obviously more traffic going by than say, Meredith which is a dead end. Weirs Bay has the traffic, but the docks are somewhat protected from prevailing winds. Doesn't matter, wherever I tie up, I hang fenders. Problem, if any, solved.

I've got fenders, too, but I've always watched my boat getting pounded against the docks from above. I may try using bungee ropes instead of regular rope next time.

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You shouldn't need that! As long as you find a dock with good post bumpers (the 2X6 or 2X8 uprights attached to many lake docks). I can't recall the docks at the Weirs but Meredith has them on 2/3 of their docks. The post bumpers will allow your boat to ride with the wake. Tied properly, you should not need to deploy a fender with post bumpers.

There is a pretty simple compromise here.... that benefits the city and the Dive.

The City should lease (5 year/option to renew) the outermost finger to the Dive (closest to the beach). This is currently the pick up/drop off area. Move the pick up/drop off to the other side of the same finger... This buys the City some time to decide IF they want to reconfigure the docks, and HOW they may want to do so.... without being constrained by any "new" construction to the docks. We all know how slowly the wheels of progress turn in the Weirs!

The Dive (as proposed) can pay for the improvements necessary for them to operate (electrical/sewage) and also pay to relocate those services should the docks be reconfigured.

If the City decides to reconfigure the dock, the Dive can then pay for one of those fingers in return for a long term lease (as proposed)

In this scenario... everybody wins.

Woodsy

Sounds like a reasonable, easy solution, but trust me, it won't be a simple fix.

if the dive were to do it right
 

I have worked as captain for a floating restaurant.

I also lived on sandy island for many years where we cooked for 300 people daily (not a floating restaurant)

The business model doesn't work for a floating restaurant.
Our biggest issue was:
Financially Seasonal
Safety, Food Safety, WASTE disposal! Fresh water. Power. Cold Supply chain. Fuel, Electricity.
other problems of course weather, unruly patrons, unpredictable staff. Etc.

I don't understand how the coast guard is so strict on colregs72 and the CFRs, but something like this is ok on a Lake?

The restaurant I worked for was in inland waters and required a COI as a subchapter T Vessel which meant it was subject to a COI Certificate of Inspection that allows 149 Passengers. Requires a USCG Master 100ton in-lnand. Annual inspection, fire drills man overboard, waste pollution plan the whole 9.
BUT the restaurant was still a FAIL, ultimately too many fines and regulations, rightfully so, Bagged for dumping waste!

Look it up. The Rockmore Restaurant.

This is what a floating restaurant does to a community.

The environmental impacts of a floating restaurant are ten-fold what anyone thinks.


Also consider the way the rockmore was opperated was a registered business in Marblehead MA, But water access thru Salem, MA public pier.

I have as well worked on a floating restaurant, which has been very successful and has locations all over the country. Done right, it works. I do not see a problem with them making a go at this, why not

The true issue, sorry one of the main issues is the docks themselves, they are tight long fingers that you cant access due to the width restraints.

On a side note: Aqua marine put in new dock structures, I see that WOW has taken down one of their slip buildings, and put docks in, it seems like money greases the wheels for dock expansions, but I do not see why the town would run into any restrictions to put new docks in or a new configuration in.

I am not against the ventures listed above putting new docks in, in fact in am in favor of new docks around the lake, but when doing our docks we were not able to replace like in kind and had to reconfigure to a smaller size that was there before damage for numerous years???:confused:

Very informative, Sandyisi. A couple of follow on thoughts:

I don't want to suggest the Dive guys are criminals like the Rockmore guys, but the example does highlight the extreme difficulty of disposing of an awful lot of contaminated water. I suppose the town/state should ask the Dive to prove they are doing this correctly.

The difficulties you highlight of water vs land suggest a floating restaurant may need to charge much higher prices especially if it is paying a market rent for dock space. I have not been on the Dive--I wonder how its prices compare?

Sandyisl
 

Sandy, prior to you joining the Forum there was a lengthy discussion here about many of the questions you raise.
https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...highlight=Dive

would have thought
 

Alright then my opinion voiced, I don't want that type of operation, their waste or their type of clientele in the lake.

trashy

You do know that a good number of us are part of that clientele?

Their food is terrible, but IMO it's the best place to sit with a drink and watch fireworks at WB on weekends over the summer. Never saw it get overly loud or rowdy, as I have at some places across the street that noone seems to speak poorly of.

Well isn't that special. Never been, now, I will have to go!

Pretty bold statement there.. Sandy! I think you might want to reconsider your post. Your lack of class is showing!

Woodsy

Typical "beautiful person" attitude. Boy, would I love to be your neighbor!! We could have lot's of fun...!!!

If there is a limit to how many people they can let on board, will they be able to make enough profit to make it worthwhile?

There most definitely is a limit, any floating structure would, although I don't know what it is. They are making it so far, and I hope they continue to do so. I have not been on board yet myself, but I will get on it one of these days.

With the gathering limits just identified, a non issue this summer


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Unfortunately, I think that will be the case with most restaurants and many other businesses that rely on crowds. I shudder to think about how many will be gone.

We have to figure out how to adapt if we ever want to see life somewhat "summer normal" (right now it is not that much different).

It is going to be tough around here for a lot of people, many whom are friends.

Very true. Thinking barstools are out. Every other table removed. No crowding waiting for tables or seats at the bar. Maybe, reservations only would work. Thinking Funspot and other arcades are closed. Some won’t open again. Maybe this is where the current arcade building owners sell out? Thinking a A&W carhop would work in this environment. Your thoughts?


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Agreed--it's brutal and sad. If I owned a restaurant, I think I'd hand the landlord the keys and ask when he'd like for me to vacate. All the while praying that the landlord recognizes that the current tenant, even when he can't pay rent, is still the guy most likely to be able to pay rent as we come out of this. This year, just surviving is success.

Yes, 100% agreed. The day of the shutdown, a friend that owns a restaurant locally said, over our last cocktail, that if it lasts a month he may end up selling for the real estate. I am sure he said it somewhat out of frustration, but only somewhat.

My sister has three restaurants in MA, they are doing a little takeout but over 100 people are laid off. Right now most people in the restaurant biz are doing OK as long as they were working above the table, but the additional $600 that most receive through unemployment will end in July (likely some extension will happen, but I am sure it will be more formula based). That is when the real pain may happen.

All good thoughts. Regarding carhop, certainly especially for fast food. I am usually in NC/SC every other week or more and drive a lot- Sonics have become a good lunch stop.

I wasn't thinking about the Weirs- wow, talk about a place that needs a crowd:(

Maybe the silver lining, this might be what it takes to revamp. Out with the old and pathetically run down and in with the fresh and new. Tower Hill is re-doing the top of the street, maybe someone can do the other end.

I have a different take. The city owns the waterfront real estate that will serve the dock. If the city were to make this deal with the Dive, the city would only be deriving $1500 per year for the lease of that real estate. Assuming the dock is for the exclusive use of the Dive, during the “10 to 20 year” lease term, the city derives no financial benefit from the $100,000 expenditure by the business owners of the Dive. The $100,000 expense would be a leasehold improvement, for which the Dive alone would recognize a financial return. In fact, the dive “boat”, and the dock itself, are not taxable as real estate. The Dive would get be getting a spectacular deal.

Consider the following as an analogy. Imagine the city takes a parcel of land in the Weirs, and offers that land to a restaurant business, for an annual fee of $1,500 per year. The business has to spend $100,000 on a parking lot for the exclusive use of their patrons, and they then move a modular restaurant, valued at $500,000 (a guesstimate of the cost of the barge/building) onto the site. The restaurant operates on the site for 10 or 20 years, and they subsequently close, and move the modular off the site, at the end of the lease term. The restaurant pays no taxes on the land, the parking lot, or the modular building, which have a total value of $750,000, and which would normally require an approximately $15,000 to $20,000 tax payment to the city. At the end of the lease, the city gets the their land and a 10-20 year old parking lot back, which may or may not be marketable to another user.

Was the above analogy a good deal for the city? Was it a fair deal to competing restaurants, who would have been making a much higher mortgage payment on their land value, and which pay real estate taxes?

If the city wants the dive, they should do the following:

1. Require that the dive pay a fair market rental for the land, that would be based on a reasonable return on the value of an equivalent restaurant land site with water views, in the Weirs.
2. Require that the Dive make a payment in lieu of taxes, that would be equivalent to the amount of taxes that a comparable land based restaurant would pay.
3. Discount #1 and #2, for the net present value of the used dock the city will receive at the end of the lease term. This way, the City is acknowledging some future value of the dock that gets constructed, but which they will eventually control.

If the Dive doesn’t think the above suggested terms are financially viable, I would argue that they are looking for a prime waterfront restaurant site, at a value that is way below market value.

A better alternative would be to build public docks, and rent them out for the night. I’ll bet ya that would generate a lot more income, generate revenue/patrons for all Weirs businesses, and provide a public amenity that is sorely lacking for the boating public. Heck, I’d do that deal with the City in a heartbeat, at $1,500 per year! If nothing else, it would be popular politically, as compared to the Dive, that seems to be a polarizing topic.

Where does $1,500 a year come in ? You must be a lawyer, and probably a real estate lawyer. More worried about real estate tax loss than the opportunity loss of revenue taxes.

Ugh and ick to lawyers.

As long as we find reasons to say no instead of yes to businesses the area will stay a run down eyesore. Try and squeeze the most out of a business that survived two years and employs a couple dozen-plus people at good wages and you will win - they will leave or fold.

Then what do you have? Empty arcades with garage doors that spend all winter partially open because they can no longer even close, a dive bar and a surprisingly good Mexican restaurant.

Keep stifling growth, lawyers look for reasons to say no, business people look for reasons to say yes - let's take a chance and try. Guess which ones are really needed, especially now ?

Adventure
 

"Out on route one in Saugus, Come dressed just as you are. Adventure, where the service is great, and you never get out of your car..." When was the last time you had a "Ginsberger: served on a 45 rpm record? Woo Woo.

I wasn't even thinking about the virus' impact on the limit of people allowed on the Dive... Yes, that may have an impact because the season is so short for the Dive, although once things get going, (in general), I think most people have short memories and things will be back to "normal" quicker than you think. At least that is my hope...

That is what I was asking. Everyone seems to think that once New Hampshire opens, things will go on as normal. I don’t see how this can happen. If the Dive has to reduce its occupancy by 50%, can it still be profitable?
I personally feel that any establishment that is serving liquor is going to have a very hard time maintaining social distancing. It’s just the nature of the beast.

Carhop or other drive in is a GREAT IDEA! My 20 y.o. daughter and her friends often prefer fast food drive thru and sit in the car to going inside. Also not too different than Tamarack

Cold Water Reduces Clientele...
 

If clientele were required to swim to The Dive, overcrowding would be reduced, and every customer well-rinsed!

Certainly an improvement over every other restaurant. :)

Arnie the "Woo"! "Adventure Car Hop is the place to go"!

...... we are going spuds down!
 

There still exists a good number of island cottages and mainland cottages that get "Lake Winnipesaukee" flowing out of their kitchen and bathroom faucet when they turn on their water faucet.

The water in Lake Winnipesaukee is the direct source of water for the City of Laconia, located in Paugus Bay.

When The Dive goes spuds down into a sandbar, it attracts boater-adult beverage customers who are want to pee in the lake, or even worse, while swimming back to their own boat. You know that old saw ..... when you gotta go ..... you gotta go ..... and you know happens with drinking adult beverages.

And, the State of NH is not an unbiased agency with regard to this lake water pollution because every single ounce of adult beverage is purchased at a NH state liquor store. While the State of Pennsylvania has closed all their Penn state liquor stores during this coronavirus pandemic, the NH state liquor stores remain open, probably because it generates a lot of revenue for NH. So, the State of NH is both the pollution enforcement agency and the adult beverage supplier to The Dive, at the same time.

$250/mo X 6 months per year, as reported by the LDS

Nope, but I am familiar with commercial real estate.

Nope. I am as pro-business as they come. However, I believe all businesses should be on an equal playing field, and I do not believe it is appropriate for a municipality to offer terms to one business, and not others. If the City were to offer the land under a public RFP process, and allow the dock rights to go to the proposal that provides the best economic benefit to the community, I would support that approach.

Like everything in life, there are good ones, and bad ones. The good ones are problem solvers. The bad ones are problem finders.

I believe the City has been short sighted in its view of the Weirs. They have been saying "yes", to businesses that are focused on creating parking lots for MW week, instead of focusing on ways to alter that dynamic. I'm not opposed to the Dive concept, although I think they had a somewhat flawed business model, and are now grasping at straws. That said, I am opposed to them leasing waterfront access property, for $1,500 per year. The water rights to a dock are worth far more than that, and if the City is going to offer that land/water right up for private use, they should investigate all potential options, and select the best alternative that is presented. If the best alternative is the Dive, so be it.

Not just $1500
 

It's not just $250/month rent. The Dive is offering $100,000 in improvements to the docks which will then be given to the city.

"This year the Dive’s owners, Jamison Merriam and Betsy Sullivan, are proposing to build a large pier at the city’s public docks on the opposite site of the Winnipesaukee Pier.

Under the plan, the owners would pay for the construction of the pier and installation of all utilities, a cost estimated to be as much as $100,000"

I'm not worried about the $1,500. Building a pier where there isn't one would be what I would call an improvement. So it's 100k + $1,500 a year as far as I'm concerned. And if they fail or move on in a year or two the town gets a pier they can sell @ market rate. I don't see how that's an unfair advantage or a great deal for them, they are in effect building their own lot to lease at a much reduced rate. I doubt they think their initial offer of $250/mo will be accepted, but what is fair market value for a pier that doesn't exist yet ? If the city thinks it's such a high amount they are free to build their own pier and sell/lease it.

Kudos to the Dive folks for trying to carve out a niche.

Correct. However, if I understand the proposal correctly (and I may not), the dock would be used exclusively by the Dive for 10-20 years, while it is under their lease term. Accordingly, the City needs to consider it's value to the City upon the expiration of the lease term. I concur that there is value in the docking structure, but there needs to be recognition that the financial value is de minimis until such time as the lease expires.

I'm simply suggesting that the Dive is one option, and there may well be other commercial enterprises that might suggest alternative uses, that garner a higher economic benefit to the City.

The City also needs to consider who controls the dock if the Dive fails. The City should be sure that rights to the dock revert to the City in the event that the Dive ceases to operate. The last thing the City wants if for the dock to become a private docking facility, on public land, with no restaurant sitting at the end of the dock.

Surely. I like small words though, so while the value is 'minor' until the lease expires I'm sure they know they wont get 20 years. Swing for the fences but take the single, if they get 5 yrs they may well take it. We don't know what they pay in rent now, if it's 20k a year then a dock @ 100k over a 5 yr lease @ $250 a month isn't any worse than they have now.

The offer is never unreasonable as it's just an ask, I am sure the town won't let the end deal be unreasonable. Either way I am assuming the city goes home owning the dock at the end of whatever the term is.

It's worth giving Riviera's leasehold improvement post another look--he makes the point that is embedded in every commercial real estate rental contract. Since the $100,000 improvement is for the exclusive use/benefit of The Dive, the city does not receive any benefit from it, and we should not view the $100K as something being given to the city.

Another way to see this is to put yourself in The Dive's shoes. Let's say that you rent a building for 25 years and expand the septic system for a restaurant. You have not given the owner of the building the value of the septic system--by the time you leave, the system will be worth far less than it is today, maybe worth nothing.

I think more to the point would be lets say I build you a building on your land and have you rent it to me for a reduced rate for a set time.

The exclusive benefit is a benefit only to them only for the duration of the lease.

And the 'improvement' is the creation of something the doesn't exist. A pier will not be worth 'far less than it is today' because it does not exist today. If they didn't make this offer that space would have sat empty for another 100 years, I still don't see the problem assuming they agree on a term / amount.

I agree that there is a monthly rent they could pay to make this fair from a financial perspective. But let's stop saying the dock is worth $100K to the town. If I promised to give you a $100K (as new) dock 25 years from now, after it had sat in the water for the past 25 years, how much would you be willing to pay today?

Nothing new here
 

This is not new territory for Laconia. Recall the building in Lakeport developed and leased to Lakeport Landing. At the end of the lease the building was sold to a high bidder. Lakeport Landing then made a deal with the city to develop Lakeport Fire Station.

They asked for 10-20 years according to the article, no reason to doubt that. You're already up to 25 years ? Fake news....deflate your # by ~ 75% and you're more in the ballpark.

What I would say is thank you for the pier I will own in (my guestimate) 5-10 years, and thank you for the taxes you will be paying me on your revenue the whole time. And also thanks for employing a couple dozen of my taxpayers as well.

Muchas Gracias.

I agree. That transaction was handled poorly. 30+ years ago, the city leased the land to Lakeport Landing, because they were the first to make an inquiry. More recently, they requested bids from only two bidders, after botching private negotiations. The proper way to handle both of those transactions would have been to advertise the property publicly, and solicit proposals from any party that might be interested. The award should have been based on the proposal that provides the best economic benefit, taking into account all factors, such as acquisition/lease price, future tax revenue, employment levels, and aesthetic improvement. In the end, all the city got was the best price offer from two marinas, and the same old building with a new paint job.

If you were selling your house, would you want to solicit offers from only one or two interested parties? Most would answer "no", unless you were disinterested in the best economic outcome.

If the lease term is 10 years, absent a default by the proponent, you won't get to say "thank you" for at least 10 years.

. There is no question that the city should look at potential tax revenue. However, the city derives no direct tax benefit from the rooms/meals tax, which is the only tax based on revenue. Further, unless the city were to negotiate a fee in lieu of taxes, there would be no real estate tax revenue, as the city would own the "real estate" to which the dock would be attached. There is no tax on municipal property, regardless of who paid for the improvements.

Again, I'm not arguing against the Dive. I'm arguing that a $1,500 per year payment is peanuts, for giving up a waterfront real estate benefit. There may be better options, and in my opinion, the city leaders have a duty to the taxpayers, to explore all options.

I feel like somethings are just being glossed over. I thought this was a great deal for both parties but after hearing the debate took a step back and have new take.

I have always assumed Laconia had its docks and could reconfigure it's SF but not just add docks. I never thought they could just add a new Pier without acquiring more lake frontage (FYI, if you look at the permits for the new docks, sited a few comments ago it was tied to lakefront LF, anyone of us could do the same).

If adding a new pier at the Wiers is on the table. A commercial dock to be leased to multiple commercial companies is a great idea. The city could have it be part of the reconfiguration of the docks, get some federal "free" money to help pay for it. The dive could simply sign a lease for it at market rate and so could other vendors. Like the Tiki Boats and who knows what else. This would be a great example of the government helping spur new Business rather than hinder.

Also, a pier with the Dive, the Tiki Boats, and a few other commercial startups on it would be dam cool. The city would make money and it would breed activity. The dive would save 100k (it would cost more than that by the way), but they would be paying market value.

One more thing, I actually believe something like this would only help the gringo and tower hill.

Dive to build a new dock
 

Unanimous approval last night, the Dive will build a new dock at the Weirs.

That's a lot of money invested so far.

I wonder then they start making it back.

Laconia is always looking for the cheap way out. The Weirs town docks will never get rebuilt. :rolleye1:

I think their cost benefit analysis does not pay off for them to rework the docks. As boaters, we understand the issues with the Weirs town docks but I don't think they can sell it. Maybe they figure that they are busy enough in summer?

The overall issues with the Weirs are more evident off season- I think those are the ones they need to solve.

I am very happy the Dive found a home here in the Weirs! They will be a welcome addition/attraction to the area!

Congrats to them!


Woodsy

I don't understand how they are able to increase dock space. But as a separate matter--this may be the best resolution for all. Once The Dive is ensconced dockside, why would they want to motor elsewhere?

New business model?
 

This may be the start of a new/revised business model.
1. When will assembly restrictions be lifted for restaurants and bars?
2. What's the timeline for the new dock being in operation
3. Will they still operate out of the Pier until then?

I think their whole “deal” (business model) was sandbar entertainment.
And weather permitting, it should stay that way.

Sandbars was the original thought. The "should" I leave to them. But when they do the math, they might ask themselves each morning why they would invest the time and fuel necessary to motor to a place that is likely less populated than their dock. I guess we'll know in mid July

This is incorrect/misleading information....

The council voted unanimously to direct the city manager to use the proposal as the basis for a lease agreement which will be drawn up by the city’s attorney.

City Manager Scott Myers said Tuesday once the proposed document has come back from the lawyers he would review it before presenting it to the council for a decision. He said if there were no complications the council might be able to take action as early as its next meeting on May 11.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...3c7f65d1c.html

Business hours?
 

Granted it was a long time ago,. but when I worked at the Weirs, things were pretty quiet on weekdays until 5:00-7:00 pm. If you can generate cash flow during the day, that's a better plan. It appears to me that there are a number of pposters speculating on the Dive's operations who have just not thoght itn through. The owners, on the other hand, have probably had their business plan scrutinized by professionals at several levels (bankers, investors, cpa's etc). If most restaurants fail in therir first 24 months and the Dive is in a position to invest $100,000 in docking, then it seems to me they have a better idea of what's going on than the naysayers on this Forum.

Now I don’t have a dog in this fight as I don’t live up there full time or have never been on the Dive, but why does it sound like if this is approved that it will be built this season? Don’t people that live on the water have a heck of a time getting permits to rebuild their docks after the winter? Never mind trying to add on or just build a new dock.
I just hope it works out for all parties involved so it can bring some more money to the Weirs.

Incorrect/misleading information? That doesn't happen on the internet and never on this forum! :laugh::laugh:

It can take up to 75 days for permit approval, should the application be correct, complete and conforms to the law the first time around. This would not be a small task to redo all of the docks.

What is their plan for this season for operation?

The Dive will build a new dock
 

The proposed dock is to extend the existing dock as stage 1, the second stage is to work with city of Laconia, by way of fundraising. The new plan proposed is to remove every other finger pier, and extend the one's left by 40'. This design will, in fact, decrease the overall dock size which is favorable with the DES and increase boat space by double, which was intended when originally built. They are investing in the city and the Weirs and only going to increase business, and bring new business to the weirs which would not normally be there. Why would any reasonable person complain, unless you are just a curmudgeon.

..... good for the Weirs!
 

With the recent unanimous decision by the five member Laconia Zoning Board to give that big green light to the new Dive location, that's a game changer for me. These five board members must all live in Laconia and have probably been there for many years, so it's their town and their decision on what's good for Weirs Beach.

Most of the time the Weirs public docks are very empty of boats and people and The Dive will probably change all that and make it a much more happening spot. It's always been an underused location with a fantastic view from the boardwalk above, looking out to the lake. So, things will be changing and good for the Weirs!

Lease negotiation
 

The lease is still being negotiated. There are legal issues that need to be resolved.

"Under the language currently in the code, the city is allowed to lease dock space only to the U.S. Mail Boat Sophie C, and to the Queen of Winnipesaukee, a 46-foot sailboat that is no longer on Lake Winnipesaukee. The code further forbids the consumption of alcoholic beverages on the docks, or on vessels tied up there."


https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...e73c21fd6.html

What are they doing for this season?

I think once the wrinkles are ironed out, the Dive will be on the outside of the finger closest to the beach for the duration of construction.... but who knows with the city.

Woodsy

Public Hearing
 

There are legal issues regarding handicap access and serving/selling alcohol from a city owned dock.

After considerable parliamentary maneuvering which included the defeat of one motion and a subsequent successful reconsideration vote, the council voted to schedule two public hearings during the June 8 council meeting.

This could be interesting. The recent format for meetings has been by video with only one party at a time allowed in the conference room.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...ticle-nav-next

Leaving aesthetics and politics aside--very difficult to do on this topic--once again I am amazed that the Dive guys have not done their homework. Last year's threads were a myriad of little issues (wind, neighbors, motors...) that could have been anticipated. This year they ask the Council for something that's illegal? Liquor licenses and handicapped access are not esoteric topics

I wonder how the Mt. Washington got away with selling & serving alcohol from the city owned docks during those years where they stayed tied to dock for bike week? Seems to be some precedence there.

who owns?
 

As noted above, the Flagship Corp claims ownership of the ramp and the dock. Apparently, the city agrees with that and does not (cannot?) bother them for whatever they sell onboard.

Love to see the Mt pushing back. Totally different customer base. Limited parking and unruly customers will destroy their business


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Does seem surprising. The underpowered engines should have at least been a known issue, from what I know the guy does marine construction or barges or something.

I would guess they figured it was better to wing it and hope for the best. If they had approached every possible government agency up front with all concerns they would still be waiting to build the thing.

The Winni Flagship Corp owns the RR station.... They do not however own the handicap ramps or the docks... they belong to the City! At least according to the tax maps anyway!

I think it would be in the Flagships best interest to play nice..... If I were on the City Council, I would be thinking about redoing the MT lease to fair market value.... just like they want to do to the Dive!

Woodsy

So you are advocating for the city to battle a 100 plus year old tradition in the lakes region to please new comers.


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Totally Agree
 

The Mount brings families to the Weirs who will spend dollars in the area at the many attractions not only in Laconia but at the other ports of call. The Mount has a many decades long history of running a "tight ship" and they are a great asset to the entire Lakes Region community.

The Dive will most likely attract only people who want to drink and raise hell, one would think they may not be the ideal neighbor, especially if you want to improve the area.

If the city ever wants to better the Weirs they need to support business's like the Mount Washington Co. who bring something long term to the table.

The age of the business or any tradition have nothing to do with it. Our society runs on laws and regulations. You either comply or you don't. If there is a dispute the courts will settle it.

If you reject new comers who attempt to follow the rules, growth will stagnate. You cannot take sides or play favorites, just make any new business comply with the existing regulations.

In the event that the laws in place need to be changed the appropriate party, in this case the Laconia City Council, can consider if it is in the public's best interest to change those regulations.

Using your logic every building and home must be brought up to current code before it can be occupied. If you disagree you are welcomed to hire a lawyer to fight it


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I am not sure how you came to that conclusion. The existing buildings follow the regulations in place for them that do not require them to upgrade to today's laws and standards. They are complying with the laws that regulate them, which was my point.

New businesses should also comply with the regulations, and yes, today's regulations are different than those of years past.

No decisions are, or can be, made based upon tradition. That is open to such vague interpretation that it would generate thousands of court cases.

Example: When my house was built in the 1940's they drove a backhoe into the lake to bury the water line 50 feet out from the shoreline. That was the custom or tradition then, but certainly not now. I wouldn't want to try that today!

I am glad to see the Mount Washington go by and I don't have any problem with the Dive. I am not advocating for either. But, everyone must follow the rules and regulations in place today.

No... I am advocating that the old tradition play nice with the newcomers! It is in the best interests of everyone. The Dive could actually compliment the Mounts business giving folks a place to hang out before they cruise on the Doris or Sophie.

The City wants the Dive to pay fair market value for the dock lease. I am a Weirs taxpayer and I am OK with that. The Winni Flagship Corp. should be worried that the City is going to do the same to their lease! IMHO, they too should be paying fair market value!

As for the drinking on the dock laws.... maybe the city should make sure the Mount doesn't serve a drink until they are underway, or during Bike Week when they don't go out and open as a floating bar! I say change the laws and let the businesses thrive or fail on their own merits!

Woodsy

That's cool. But as noted in the LDS article, the Dive does not want to "comply with the existing regulations". So it's a fair debate as to whether it's in the public's interest to change them.

I think it's generally accepted that the Mount is already in the public's interest. This is the advantage of tradition

The new normal is "Social Distancing" so I am not sure if opening a newly located, seasonal operation such as The Dive will be financially viable for the current owners (or any subsequent owner for that matter).

Based upon the financials I wouldn't be surprised The Dive gives everything a serious second thought prior to continuing going forward in 2020.

Of course the passage of time will actually tell what really happens and discussing everything at this point is pure speculation. It will be interesting to see how things play out for everyone.

Everyone please stay safe and healthy!

So back to the Dive. The city gave them permission and then the council rescinded it? Who knows the story?

Approved
 

Last night the Laconia City Council approved the Dive lease 4-3! They will soon be at the Weirs Docks!


Woodsy

Great News!!
 

SO SO very happy for Jamie and Betsy!!! They are bringing something truly different and exciting to the Weirs and we will definitely be a frequent flyer on the Dive. Best of luck on their next endeavor at the Weirs Dock

The Breeze
(Paulie from Good Fellas)

Have they been restricted at all from doing their normal sand bar business? I haven't seen or heard of it being out.

Last I heard they were having one of their outboards worked on.... I suspect with all this Covid crap it has been a slow process.

No sandbar restrictions that I know of.

Hopefully we will see them in the Weirs soon!

Woodsy

Weirs
 

So now that the Dive can serve food and alcohol at an extension of the Weirs public dock, does that mean the MT. Washington can also? Wasn't the MT not allowed to serve food or alcohol until underway, except for bike week?

The Mount has always served liquor while waiting to get underway.... and when docked for Bike Week. It was just never really an issue or enforced.

Woodsy

Public dock vs. private?
 

I always thought the Mount owned her dock, storage building, ramp and ticket office (RR Station). Isn't that why the Flagship Corp said the Dive couldn't use their ramp for ADA access?