Fish & Game will always be underfunded. There are limited funds and in general “the people” don’t believe F&G is as essential as other agencies. In addition, there will be no guarantee that additional revenues generated by a sticker won’t go to the general fund.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

One could suggest that all government agencies are "underfunded" as they all say they could do more if they had more money. For the most part the NH fee system keeps the money where it is intended to go. That is, fees go to the intended agency, taxes go to the general fund. I believe, over the years, the number of hunting and fishing licenses has not grown, but F & G expenses continue to grow, and we put more on their plate, Search and Rescue, Trails Bureau, Public Water Access, etc. Some of these programs are "encouraged" by the Feds. "Start this program and we'll give you some money." Keep the program running, but the Fed support goes away after awhile.
It is laudable in my mind that NH is basically run by volunteers, everything from the legislature to Selectmen to F & G Search and Rescue.

With the increased retirement population in the lakes region could this issue be resolved if NH votes to open Casinos and earmark profits for fish and game, local schools, etc...


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Good idea, but...
 

Good idea, but it would take a long time to reap a lot of money from the proceeds from penny slot machines. :cool::laugh:

Disagree. You must go see the high stakes BINGO Parlor at Foxwoods. Also, sports betting is now legal for all states. Would well be worth the headaches and wait


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I always enjoy the debate..... Not Really

Bottom line I don't see a huge problem with require sometype of use sticker.... What I have a problem with is every canoe and kayak needing one.... For me that would be three additional charges... so even if it is only 10$, that an additional 30$ every year... Once again not that bad.... As long as I know the money goes to Fish and Game only.....

But if there is anyway that the money can get diverted somewhere else... I can guarantee it will.....

I will continue to state what I have stated for a long time.... NH wake up!!!!!!!!!... the answer is simple.... 1% sales tax and the coffers will be full.... you want to protect things so that it can't be arbitrarily raised when ever Concord runs out of money... Work into bill that a increase has to be voted upon by the public on a election ballot....

Other wise... other are right... when canoes and kayaks don't provide enough because money gets syphoned to the general fund... we will have to pay for inflatable tubes, and it will go on and on....

They will never approve a 1% sales tax and then leave future increases up to the voters, also sales tax always goes into the general fund and we now what happens once it goes there, it disappears never to be seen again

So to play devils advocate here, and for that matter is my opinion as well.... if the fees from a kayak or canoe fee are syphoned into the general fund and thus provide no relief why is it that a 1% sales tax would be any different?!?

I'll answer that for you - it won't.

I don't know what a kayak or canoe has to do with Fish and Game, except some people do fish from them. So wouldn't a fee that was more related to F&G be appropriate?

F&G has traditionally relied on hunting & fishing licenses for funding.... but there are fewer of them every year. It has also been tasked with SAR operations as well. Those are SAR ops can have budget busting costs. They police the ATV system too. Not to mention most small rivers & bodies of water get policed by F&G as well.

While I have no faith that the political gurus in Concord will not steal from the sticker $$$ eventually. I do think that something needs to be done to help fund F&G. I am all for a $10 sticker...

Woodsy

I don’t think there’s a way to collect the fee or enforce having a decal especially with all the out of state vacationers. Do we want to collect the fee and then add staff to distribute decals and add staff to check for decals? Michigan thought about a $10 fee but tossed the idea in April. They had no way to manage it. Same here.

Well said


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Why doesn't NH increase All TOLLS at the border of NH coming from every state. Just those TOLLS. Make it a 1 time 20 dollar charge to every car coming in this once great state. Yep, you guys did ruin it !!! That way instead of complaining all the time, you could sit back and scream at all the boaters. I find these conversations so hilarious to listen to. If NH is so bad, why even come here to be so upset?

First of all, there is NO place in the world like the BIG LAKE and secondly there also is not a place in the world that doesn't have issues (unless you know of a perfect place that has no issues and everyone shares the same opinion of every topic of discussion).

The Fish & Game Dept has a lot to do with kayaking because F & G is the state dept that installs and maintains the many free-to-use boat launch ramps at lakes across the state.

About 3-5 years ago, F & G bought Downing's Landing in Alton Bay probably using funds raised from fishing licenses.

Getting access to the water, launching, and parking your car to unload the kayak off the roof rack is a key part of kayaking, so F & G is attached to kayaking/canoing/rowboats/small sailboats/stand up paddle boards and other non-motorized small boats.

Locally, Lakes Winnisquam, Squam, Newfound, and Winnipesaukee all have state launch ramps, totally free to use, so it seems like a $20 annual kayak fee stamp would be kayak money that is well spent.

Another way to raise needed funding is to install those 'iron deposit boxes' similar to what's used by the White Mountain National Forest at hiking trails, and charge $5/put-in, or $20/ annual sticker, so's the town launch ramp brings in funding when it is not staffed.

The local police could monitor the launch ramps from a distance with binoculars, make a blue lights pounce, and issue a $116.88 violation for kayaking without paying ....... book 'em :idea:Barney ....... slap a ticket on their paddle ....... we got us another new customer ..... hee-hee-hee!

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to pay a paddling fee (kayak, sup, canoe) because, as FLL points out, F&G does support water access. I’d be ok with paying the fee but it would have to apply to everyone and be enforceable without costing as much or more than they take in. I just don’t see that happening. An honor system sounds like a good idea but in practice I’d still be paying while there’s a high probability of the people paddling next to me not paying. And someone still has to empty the honor boxes before the box is vandalized and the money stolen. That’s another non-starter.

We watch North Woods Law regularly and you have to love those F&G guys. What a great combination of law enforcement and conservation. Last weeks episode included a segment on saving a baby owl. Was it worth the time and effort (and cost) to save it? You bet it is! We do need to support them but the kayak fee just isn’t a viable solution.

It absolutely is a viable solution....

You institute the fee/law and sell the stickers for $10 everywhere... store owners get $2 for selling stickers. Keep stickers same color as boat reg for easy ID.

F&G/MP enforce the law... $25 fine. Not a deal breaker, just enough to be irritating. It will not take long until you see 85%-90% compliance. The cost to enforce the law is negligible...

Woodsy

The five dollar/day hiking pay boxes are not really an honor system. You get a two piece do-it-yourself receipt that you place on top of your dashboard so it's visible through the windshield so a patrol visit can tell which cars have annual stickers and which have one day receipts.

The WMNF system has been in use for about 15 years, and the demographics for hikers are probably similar to the demos for paddlers, so if it works for hikers ...... it encourages lake users to help by paying their small share ..... in their clean lake.

Woodsy, I like your idea about how to distribute stickers but F&G and MP don’t have the staff to enforce the rules we already have. Go past Cattle Landing on a Saturday or Sunday and that’s a perfect example. If MP had enough staff they could sit there all day bagging 150 foot violators. But they don’t and they could bring in lots of money from the tickets they write.

If there were a well communicated sticker requirement I speculate that there would be a significant level of compliance.

That would bring in plenty of money.

It would not take long for everyone to hear of someone who was ticketed.

Compliance would grow and then level off at some number that brings in more money.

You don't need any more staff to enforce compliance, just a requirement.

The above proposal would incentivize communication of the requirement.

Alright you have me there maybe.... But let me further develop the idea....

So you implement a 1% sales tax suddenly the coffers are full and there is less scrambling for money... Step on Complete.

The follow up with additional legislation to fund agencies like fish and game, etc. out of the general fund.... instead of doing things like trying to force money from illogical places...

everyone thinks that the entire equation needs only have one step... NH has a funding problem end of story... First need is adequate cash flow... Second need is a refactoring of how state agencies are funded....

I could go on and on, but I won't because you can look at other similar minded threads that have post from me and get the full picture... Trust me my outlook is much more then just adding a 1% sales tax, that is on the tip of the ice burg on what needs to happen.

Instead NH will continue to raise property Taxes until it become undesirable to own a second home in NH and then the funding problems will get worse... when people aren't paying their property tax....

As much as people hate to admit to it NH is just a broken as most other states.. Major reform is needed.... Adding a sales tax is just a way to start moving burden to other areas beside sales tax... The a host of other changes are needed as well....

I seem to remember hearing NH had a surplus.

The issue with the income tax is the rate can and likely rise over time.

I was a resident of CT when Lowell Weiker was elected to governor running on a "no income tax" platform.

Well, he gave us an income tax but lowered the sales tax.

Both have crept up over the years.

A 1% income tax will grow and grow and grow.

Having seen CT and NH goverments in action, I am convinced that the only way to ensure responsible spending is to maintain a budget condition of near starvation.

...... a PADDLE fee stamp!
 

Maybe a paddle fee stamp would be easier to monitor/administer than a kayak fee stamp?

If that brightly colored red-blue-green-orange annual $20 fee stamp were stuck to the blade of your paddle, it would make you feel like you is getting your moneys worth with every paddle stroke. The more you paddle, the lower the $20/stroke/annual fee cost per stroke which lowers the price/stroke!

Plus, when the MP putt-putts past you, coming or going, you get in the habit of waving your paddle, so the red-blue-green-orange paddle stamp can be seen by the friendly police ...... so many happy paddlers out there today!

Own two kayaks ........ well ....... the stamp is on the paddle ..... not the kayak ..... so that's a price saving ..... there ...... the stamp goes on the paddle!:)

"Irritate" Them, Get More Money...
 

:idea: Regarding the effects of taxes:

Irritating? Make kayakers go away? :eek2:

New Hampshire's previous $10 "kayak fee" got the axe: :eek:

The following echoes my thoughts—but are not my words:

Thirty years ago, sailboats paid no "fee" in New Hampshire. But for today's "fee-crazy" boating, here's a thought:

Unpowered sailboats have a large range of sail area that affects the power that drives them. Since New Hampshire's excess air remains untaxed, why not charge a variable "fee" on kayaks for their sail area? How about $1 per square foot extra?

Do you want kayaks sneaking around for only $10, when they can put up their 17 square feet of sail in seconds? :mad:

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHQGUbMSPTM

(You can't understand the kayakers in this video, because they're speaking in 'Strine). :look:

.

After watching that 11-minute youtube with the sail rigged ocean kayaks somewhere off Tasmania, did you know the www.topkayaker.com located in Ossipee NH seems like the place to get a mast and sail for your $144 Walmart kayak.

By the way, if the kayak is 12' long and has a sail, then it probably needs to be registered in NH which costs about $45/year. Oh well ....... if you can afford a kayak with a sail, then the $45 is probably no big hurdle. Displaying the registration stickers without displaying the 3" high hull numbers on both sides of the bow is ok for sailboats from 12-16', so that is basically a $45 annual fee stamp.

Am not too sure about kayak sailors longer than 12' needing to be registered ....... could be one of those rules that almost never gets enforced ....... and can probably go 12' kayak sailing like this without the sticker ...... saving $45 ..... ?

Yet other states have instituted multiple broad based taxes and by your own admission they too are broken and far more expensive to live in.

The answer is not throwing money at the problem and finding new an innovative ways to do this in a manner that seems to be less painful. The focus needs to be on ensuring that the money that is available is spent wisely and the government as a whole operates efficiently. Unfortunately government as a whole is not forced to do either.

I think as a whole NH does a pretty good job comparatively speaking to other states. Perfect no, but not bad either.

F&G and for that matter all law enforcement should be streamlined under the state police. There is needless duplication of efforts, infrastructure and administration. The F&G operational costs also need to be looked at and quite frankly if the SAR operations are killing the budget then those who engage in activities (especially hikers) that then are the most likely to use this service should be forced to pay for the costs associated with it regardless of whether their actions were reckless or not. I also think that fines for breaking the law are far to low, why not make those that break the law pay dearly for it instead of porking the law abiding citizens?

If a sales tax is the answer the only way I would support that is not a 1% additional tax, but an all out swap of the property tax for a hefty sales tax.

Why do you single out hikers?

If people are charged for a public service regardless of whether their actions were reckless or not, then those who receive firefighting or police service should also be charged for it.

Funny (NOT) how everybody talks about RAISING taxes for this and that, but NEVER TALK ABOUT WASTE, FRAUD, AND CORRUPTION, and just doing a better job of managing, and spending money (more) wisely... How about we start with looking to SAVE money here and there (FIRST), before we look to raise taxes (AGAIN)...??? How long do you have to continue to throw more and more money at a problem that NEVER gets resolved... I think that is the definition of insanity, is it not??? Why is man so stupid that he can't learn from the past...??? When I drive around and see some of these police stations, fire stations, and other Govt buildings (both local and state) that have nicer kitchens, gyms, bathrooms, and other amenities that a lot of the taxpayer's don't even have, it kind of pisses me off... Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with "rich" people, (private citizens), having it all, it's their money, God Bless them, but when I see Govt buildings that have the best of everything at the taxpayer's expense, something is wrong... Do public building's really need granite counter tops?? I know they don't ALL have them, but you get my point. Go ahead and beat me up now. Can't help how I feel...

Because a large part of and ever increasing portion of F&G's operations budge is SAR. Why shouldn't those that utilize it pay for it?

The difference with fire and police is they are paid for directly via tax dollars from the respective city or town residents they serve.

If a person traveling away from their home town (tourist, business travel, etc) has an accident and receives service from fire or police should they be charged as you suggest for hikers?

Here's a local bargain price kayak for sale ...... a brand new Sun Dolphin Bali 13.5 .... color medium blue ...... size 13.5' x 34" .... weighs 70-lbs.... supports 500-lbs ... "perfect family kayak" ..... seats two .....sit on top .... the Plymouth Walmart has three Sun Dolphin Bali 13.5 kayaks w/ paddles for end of season price $250 ....... reg price $495 .... just came in two weeks ago

This is a lot of kayak for $250 ...... go paddle the big beautiful Lake Winnipesaukee in sales tax free New Hampshire ....... September is the quiet month and the water is still warm enough ...... seats two adults ...... plus two kids and a basset hound ...... woof-woof-woof ....arrroooooo!

I don't disagree that government budgets need to be scrutinized... That goes for every state, and also the feds...

I do disagree that NH is doing better the other states... NH faces that same delemia's as other states... and in some cases more so.....

At the end of the day, a number of things need to happen... the problem is the same elected officials keep getting elected back... And when that happens nothing is ever going to change....

Well we agree on one thing, there are a number of elected representatives at the local, state and federal level who regularly demonstrate a staggering level of incompetence, or maybe they are so intoxicated on their own political agenda that rational thought and fact take the back burner to their ideology.

Far as taxes go I like that there is one source of revenue as it makes people pay attention to what they are voting for since it will be directly reflected in the big checks that are already being written. All states face the same dilemma, government is fundamentally inefficient and the tax payers are forced to pay for it. Where the money comes from is irrelevant. However so long as that funding source remains isolated to a single place, in NH's case property taxes, people tend to pay far more attention to it than if it's spread across in tiny increments via broad based taxes. Unfortunately whenever anyone tries to clean this up and run government more like a business they get thrown out of office and are crucified by their fellow politicians. Just look at what happened to Craig Benson, he tried and didn't last long. It's to bad he had some really good ideas but the "system" rejected him. Everyone talks a good game on the campaign trail but once in office many do nothing to fix things. In fact if they actually fixed things they would have nothing to complain about next time they run.

They never fix ANYTHING, Maxum! The politicians have been running on the same things for as long as I can remember and never fix them.

If it's bankrupting the town or city why the hell not?

The Fish and Game's purpose is to manage and protect the wildlife of the state, nowhere in that job description is rescue stranded hikers. If they choose to lend a hand it should be on a best effort based on budgetary constraints. There absolutely should be charge back for each and every rescue unless it involves a person who is otherwise a licensed hunter or fisherman and has paid "their fair share" already.

This statement will certainly open pandora's box. Where does it end? If I have an accident just traveling through the state on pleasure or business and I have an accident and receive emergency services, should I pay for those services?

You do pay
 

Pretty much you do pay. You just don't see the bill. Once you're in the ambulance, or otherwise getting EMT services, your insurance company is picking up the tab.

Yes that is for EMT services but not police or fire department responses.

No to term limits
 

I think in NH, term limits pretty much are taken care of by the voters and the fact that our politicians are essentially unpaid ($100/year for House and Senate). With two year terms, approximately 1/3 of the legislature turns over every election; governors rarely do more than 6 years (Lynch did 8, Hassan 4, right?). Most states have a four year governor's term, and they rarely serve more than two terms.
So we're unique here and I think our volunteer government works well. We're always getting fresh faces, but we also have some dedicated folks who supply corporate memory.
BTW, the state does not run on property taxes. The towns do and you can go to town meeting to pass or amend the budget every year.
The state budget relies on Business profits tax, Business enterprise tax, tobacco tax, Interest and dividends tax, liquor revenues and the like with a significant influx of federal money.

I like the idea of a"Boat Safe" card that I can carry and use on either my canoe or my kayak, but there maybe should be a sticker too, like the one I get from BoatUS, just so others know and will participate too. This works for the "Parks plate" for my car that gets me park privileges in NH. (NH parks are self-funded, no general fund money for operations).