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Trail Goer 01-08-2019 05:10 PM
Gun Control on School Grounds
 
Looks like a bill is being introduced that if passed, will give school districts the power ban guns from school premises. Right now, only students are prohibited from possessing firearms on school grounds but teachers, staff and visiting adults are allowed under NH law.

http://www.citizenscount.org/news/nh...6TnGL7bp3dnBdQ

gravy boat 01-08-2019 06:40 PM
Schools and guns
 
I am a believer in protecting our children, and protecting those not able to protect themselves.

If passed this bill will reduce our ability to protect our children while on school premises.

Not knowing which teacher or adult is carrying a weapon is a deterrent to most criminals.

Some may disagree and that's fine. But again, I am a believer in protecting our children.

thinkxingu 01-08-2019 07:58 PM
I'm a teacher and want nothing to do with guns in my building, other than a couple resource officers for deterrence.

According to most studies, the accuracy rate of well-trained officers in high-tension situations is between 15-30%. Add to that the increased uncertainty of identifying student-shooters among students, and it's a scary proposition to have under-trained and minimum-experienced people carrying weapons.

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FlyingScot 01-08-2019 08:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravy boat (Post 306139)
I am a believer in protecting our children, and protecting those not able to protect themselves.

If passed this bill will reduce our ability to protect our children while on school premises.

Not knowing which teacher or adult is carrying a weapon is a deterrent to most criminals.

Some may disagree and that's fine. But again, I am a believer in protecting our children.
Actually, we will know with complete certainty, that no gun owned by a well-meaning teacher will accidentally kill a student.

gokart-mozart 01-08-2019 08:11 PM
Protecting children
 
The day after the Newtown shootings, I was dropping my kids off at school, and I noticed four cars in the teacher's lot with a bumper sticker that said, "Wag More, Bark Less".

That's fine until Adam Lanza shows up, and there's nobody who knows how to bark.

WinnisquamZ 01-08-2019 08:13 PM
You write you are ok with resource officers being armed. However, in Florida the resource officers refused to do what was required to save the students and the local courts, just last week, agreed it is not in their job description to risk their lives to save others


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garysanfran 01-08-2019 08:23 PM
Shootings in schools...
 
Wackos with intellect chose schools because they are UNARMED and easy soft targets that carry a lot of emotional response when the dead bodies of children are on the news.

I would have a lot of doubts about my intended success in school mayhem if I knew as soon as my gun was seen, a dozen guns would be pointed at me, whether they are trained or not would have not been my deterrent. Just the fact that I knew schools were now not soft targets would make me look elsewhere in my planning stages.

I would imagine thinkxingu has never known whether the adult in front of them is armed or not. If I were locked in a room with an active shooter about. I would hope someone in that room was armed and at that point I would not say "Ahhh. Have you been trained to use that thing? If not, please put it away. You could miss. We must wait for the police."

fatlazyless 01-08-2019 08:33 PM
Https://www.npr.org/2018/02/28/58953...of-police-duty

The Florida school cop wanted to go home alive at the end of the day and had he gone inside the school building, it would have been he, alone by himself, with his hand gun, vs some crazed 19-year old loser with a semi-automatic rifle. So today the officer is retired with his police pension and family...... not a tough decision .... what would you do?

Here in New Hampshire, the police would most likely go inside as a team and hunt down the shooter, in my opinion. NH is a different place than Florida, and the local police here are very dedicated.

Must be the long, cold NH winter, or something, that makes this state so safe!

"I really believe I'd run in there even if I didn't have a weapon." ... from above NPR article

joey2665 01-08-2019 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ (Post 306143)
You write you are ok with resource officers being armed. However, in Florida the resource officers refused to do what was required to save the students and the local courts, just last week, agreed it is not in their job description to risk their lives to save others


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Today the new governor of Florida fired the sheriff of Boward County as a result of the Parkland tragedy.

My high school classmate and friend Andrew Pollack who lost his daughter Meadow that terrible day has been extremely active on federal (he has met several times with the president) and state (now a member of the board of Ed) levels advocating for armed officers in schools.

I am a firm believer that properly trained armed security personnel need to be on school campuses.


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gravy boat 01-08-2019 08:37 PM
Perhaps it's just deciding whether you are....
 
The sheep...
Or the sheepdog.

It is a choice to be made by each of us living as responsible adults, with the world growing smaller and more dangerous.

thinkxingu 01-08-2019 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ (Post 306143)
You write you are ok with resource officers being armed. However, in Florida the resource officers refused to do what was required to save the students and the local courts, just last week, agreed it is not in their job description to risk their lives to save others


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"Four sheriff's deputies and years of warnings did nothing to stop Nikolas Cruz..."

See the problem? They had armed deputies (not resource officers--though my school has legit LEOs as ROs) and it didn't matter. In my school, there's almost no way the right person would be in the right place at the right time.

Prevention is the key, with a keen backup plan. Lightly trained civilians with weapons in a sprawling, packed building of students is not the answer.

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WinnisquamZ 01-08-2019 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatlazyless (Post 306145)
Https://www.npr.org/2018/02/28/58953...of-police-duty

The Florida school cop wanted to go home alive at the end of the day and had he gone inside the school building, it would have been he, alone by himself, with his hand gun, vs some crazed loser with an assault rife. So today the officer is retired with his police pension and family...... not a tough decision.

Here in New Hampshire, the police would most likely go inside and hunt down the shooter, in my opinion. NH is a different place than Florida, and the local police here are very dedicated.


FLL, I have defended you in past posts when you go off the ranch. However, this one you are just ignorant. He accepted a position to keep students safe. He failed and cowardly stayed outside. Each NH officer assigned to a school should be ask the question are they prepared to enter if needed to do so


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thinkxingu 01-08-2019 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ (Post 306149)
FLL, I have defended you in past posts when you go off the ranch. However, this one you are just ignorant. He accepted a position to keep students safe. He failed and cowardly stayed outside. Each NH officer assigned to a school should be ask the question are they prepared to enter if needed to do so


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They can ask the question all they want, but they'll never know until it happens.

Again, as a teacher I think about this a lot. From many reports, I'm not even sure most people would be familiar enough with the sound of gunshots in a building to be adequately prepared. Remember, the initial post is about non-LEO people.

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SAB1 01-08-2019 09:15 PM
I'm completely for it because I think the chance someone can take out one of these nuts before many die is worth it. I do however believe in background checks to purchase and firm believer that to carry a concealed weapon a person needs to complete an element of training and pass a shooting proficiency test. I say that as a person who has grown up with guns and hunted all my life and taken many classes. I'm sure that will rile up some of the pro gun guys but there a lot of people out there just simply don't know what they are doing.

gravy boat 01-08-2019 09:16 PM
Proper training
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkxingu (Post 306150)
They can ask the question all they want, but they'll never know until it happens.

Again, as a teacher I think about this a lot. From many reports, I'm not even sure most people would be familiar enough with the sound of gunshots in a building to be adequately prepared. Remember, the initial post is about non-LEO people.

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Well I guess we just keep doing what we are doing and hope it doesn't happen again? It's easier that way and we don't have to think of bad things or step out of our comfort zone.

But seriously - what about sending school staff to classes to recognize signs and sounds and what to do to keep kids safe if not carrying a firearm? And then also send some staff to firearms training at Sig Academy or similar so there are actually some people trained and willing to protect the students?

Funding? Bet it can be found. It is the cost of the Training. Those who are willing to carry and protect probably already own a firearm so school districts don't need to fund what some may consider "unsavory", thereby avoiding the expected complaints about the district buying firearms.

dickiej 01-08-2019 09:20 PM
You can argue about lots of things, but you can't argue that a good guy with a gun takes out a bad guy with a gun. The average response time between when a 911 call is made in a school or workplace shooting and the police arrive is about 15 minutes. Think about how much damage a shooter can do in those 15 minutes, when a trained good guy with a gun on the premises could take him out almost immediately.

Garcia 01-08-2019 09:50 PM
I have spent decades working in schools. My suggestion? Start by getting advice and input from people who are in schools every day. You’ll get lots of great ideas about how to make them safer - and bringing more guns into the building will be way down on the list.

MikeF-NH 01-09-2019 06:08 AM
The problem with most gun control debates is that neither side realises that there is REASONABLE middle ground so we get this intense polarization of solutions: ban all guns from everyone or give everyone a gun.

I see a very valid point about untrained and unskilled gun owners in a school takeover situation doing some very real damage to innocent parties unintentinally. I don't see why either side of the debate would reject a compromise that requires all ADULTS wanted to carry on school property must take and pass a course designed specifically for how to deal with this situation and pass a skills test indicating appropriate proficiency with the gun.

In this manner all gun carriers would have same training any know how they react. Perhaps even be aware of whom else in the school is carrying so when they see a person with a gun they can work together or at least avoid considering each other a target.

I would feel better about my kids safety in schools knowing that several well-trained persons on the property could protect this from a violent intruder.

jeffk 01-09-2019 06:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkxingu (Post 306148)
...Prevention is the key, with a keen backup plan. ...
In my opinion, that is magical thinking. We have no way to identify exactly WHO these shooters will be. We have no methods of prevention that absolutely, positively work. A system that is flawless in design still takes time to fully respond. Even if we did have means to identify and prevent, the implementation would be carried out by human beings who are guaranteed to make mistakes and be unreliable. NO system, especially a human based one, is flawless. Beyond all that, attempts at building such a system are expensive, ponderous, and require a degree of regimentation that probably will not be achieved in a school setting and will likely have negative psychological effects as well. Going to school in a reverse prison is not a healthy atmosphere.

Even arming willing teachers and staff is not a "solution". It's an attempt to shift the balance from a situation where the victims are helpless to one where there is a chance that the shooter may be stopped before too much tragedy unfolds. We KNOW this can work. Armed citizens have stopped criminals. Not ALL criminals, but some.

Wouldn't it be better if the carnage in Parkland was limited to 5 or 2 instead of 17 because the perpetrator ran into someone inside who could fight back and the shooter was killed or repelled? Some adults died trying to protect students. Wouldn't it be better if one of them could have done so more effectively instead of being helplessly slaughtered waiting for a "system" to work; which it never did?

winnipiseogee 01-09-2019 06:37 AM
Does this crap really need to infect even discussions about the lake? I love hearing about the Dive's new home, new restaurants in the area, losing anchors, and hundred year old steam engines but we get enough political bloviating from other sources. Can't we keep this a happy place?

SAB1 01-09-2019 06:39 AM
I think you have the option to read or not read any thread.

thinkxingu 01-09-2019 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffk (Post 306157)
In my opinion, that is magical thinking. We have no way to identify exactly WHO these shooters will be. We have no methods of prevention that absolutely, positively work. A system that is flawless in design still takes time to fully respond. Even if we did have means to identify and prevent, the implementation would be carried out by human beings who are guaranteed to make mistakes and be unreliable. NO system, especially a human based one, is flawless. Beyond all that, attempts at building such a system are expensive, ponderous, and require a degree of regimentation that probably will not be achieved in a school setting and will likely have negative psychological effects as well. Going to school in a reverse prison is not a healthy atmosphere.



Even arming willing teachers and staff is not a "solution". It's an attempt to shift the balance from a situation where the victims are helpless to one where there is a chance that the shooter may be stopped before too much tragedy unfolds. We KNOW this can work. Armed citizens have stopped criminals. Not ALL criminals, but some.



Wouldn't it be better if the carnage in Parkland was limited to 5 or 2 instead of 17 because the perpetrator ran into someone inside who could fight back and the shooter was killed or repelled? Some adults died trying to protect students. Wouldn't it be better if one of them could have done so more effectively instead of being helplessly slaughtered waiting for a "system" to work; which it never did?
https://www.npr.org/2018/02/28/58950...mes-into-focus

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thinkxingu 01-09-2019 06:50 AM
"FBI reports show that active shooters often share characteristics and exhibit similar behavior in the weeks and months before an attack. This behavior can signal impending violence, but is rarely reported to law enforcement, and when it is often the attacks still occur."

The Sandy Hook Project has a few videos on "recognizing the signs." It wouldn't be expensive nor difficult, but it would take legitimate discussion beyond the polarized, politicized noise most of these debates turn into.

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swnoel 01-09-2019 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail Goer (Post 306135)
Looks like a bill is being introduced that if passed, will give school districts the power ban guns from school premises. Right now, only students are prohibited from possessing firearms on school grounds but teachers, staff and visiting adults are allowed under NH law.

http://www.citizenscount.org/news/nh...6TnGL7bp3dnBdQ
In the early 70's we brought guns into school for hunters safety and to hunt after school... no one was killed! It wasn't the gun then so why is this happening now? Intelligent people know it has NOTHING to do with a firearm.

Biggd 01-09-2019 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swnoel (Post 306162)
In the early 70's we brought guns into school for hunters safety and to hunt after school... no one was killed! It wasn't the gun then so why is this happening now? Intelligent people know it has NOTHING to do with a firearm.
Ya, nothing has changed in 50 years? :confused: Let everyone bring a gun to school? That's a place where I want my kid to go every day? Just let them fight it out in the hall ways like the "good old days"? :emb::emb::emb:

swnoel 01-09-2019 07:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggd (Post 306163)
Ya, nothing has changed in 50 years? :confused: Let everyone bring a gun to school? That's a place where I want my kid to go every day? Just let them fight it out in the hall ways like the "good old days"? :emb::emb::emb:
This is an example of the foolish responses from foolish people... thank you for making my point what has happened in our country.

Biggd 01-09-2019 07:52 AM
Maybe we need to build a wall. :emb::emb:

joey2665 01-09-2019 07:53 AM
Gun Control on School Grounds
 
This is a video of Andrew Pollack who lost his daughter Meadow in Parkland.

You may not like his position but you should respect it. Andy has made this issue his life’s work after losing his daughter.

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https...8oUhr4f-hj&s=1


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Red apple 01-09-2019 07:56 AM
If a teacher or school employee has a LTC in NH then yes he or she should be able to protect themselves and others in a school. Now maybe some more special training should be standard for this...


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VitaBene 01-09-2019 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkxingu (Post 306161)
"FBI reports show that active shooters often share characteristics and exhibit similar behavior in the weeks and months before an attack. This behavior can signal impending violence, but is rarely reported to law enforcement, and when it is often the attacks still occur."

The Sandy Hook Project has a few videos on "recognizing the signs." It wouldn't be expensive nor difficult, but it would take legitimate discussion beyond the polarized, politicized noise most of these debates turn into.

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Every school or institution should have a threat assessment team that meets regularly to discuss persons of concern. Virginia Tech is a perfect example. Cho was known to numerous departments as a troubled individual before he went on his rampage. Had that information been aggregated, that rampage may have been averted.

ApS 01-09-2019 08:35 AM
All Teachers Should be Required to Wear Bulky Concealed Holsters...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VitaBene (Post 306168)
Every school or institution should have a threat assessment team that meets regularly to discuss persons of concern. Virginia Tech is a perfect example.
Cho was known to numerous departments as a troubled individual before he went on his rampage. Had that information been aggregated, that rampage may have been averted.
Broward County schools received million$ from State and Federal treasuries because they'd falsely reported a lessening number of criminal incidents in Broward schools. This Parkland killer was one of many students "overlooked".

"PC" run amok!

Annnnnnnnnd, this year starts a new "PC" year when Florida's Felons can vote. :rolleye1:

Under the premise of this proposed NH law, at least school districts can individually decide if they'll be among the schools that display this awesome shield against school shootings:

https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content...-free-zone.gif

(And see how this works out).:rolleye1:

Trail Goer 01-09-2019 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by winnipiseogee (Post 306158)
Does this crap really need to infect even discussions about the lake? I love hearing about the Dive's new home, new restaurants in the area, losing anchors, and hundred year old steam engines but we get enough political bloviating from other sources. Can't we keep this a happy place?
Not everything is rainbows and lollypops, these are real world issues that can and do affect the Lakes Region, whether we like it or not. My point of sharing the info was to bring awareness to it; I bet a lot of people probably aren't even aware that such a bill is be introduced. I understand people may stand on different sides of the issue and that's fine, but as long as people are being respectful in discussing this, I don't see any issue with it, after all this is a discussion board.

dt5150 01-09-2019 08:48 AM
i firmly support trained, armed personnel in schools. whether that be security guards, police, or school faculty. we have one of the worlds best firearms training facilities right here in nh, the sig sauer academy.

DEJ 01-09-2019 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggd (Post 306163)
Ya, nothing has changed in 50 years? :confused: Let everyone bring a gun to school? That's a place where I want my kid to go every day? Just let them fight it out in the hall ways like the "good old days"? :emb::emb::emb:
Thank you very much for helping to make the point member swnoel posted. Good job.

Biggd 01-09-2019 09:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEJ (Post 306173)
Thank you very much for helping to make the point member swnoel posted. Good job.
Well you know what they say about opinions, they are like ********, everybody has one. :D

DEJ 01-09-2019 09:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggd (Post 306175)
Well you know what they say about opinions, they are like ********, everybody has one. :D
And you have shown how big of a one you have.

Biggd 01-09-2019 10:12 AM
I know NH is pro gun but just the thought of some of these posters carrying a concealed weapon doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy.
I have a couple of good friends that carry concealed weapons and I feel less safe when I'm out with them because both are quick tempered. Personally I don't think either one should be allowed to carry a gun and I'm always aware of keeping their emotions in check when I'm with them. If you're looking for trouble it will usually find you. JMO.

jbolty 01-09-2019 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swnoel (Post 306162)
In the early 70's we brought guns into school for hunters safety and to hunt after school... no one was killed! It wasn't the gun then so why is this happening now? Intelligent people know it has NOTHING to do with a firearm.
I'm sure it's long gone now but back in my day Kingswood had a shooting range behind the school and pickups in the parking lot with gun racks was common.

Pricestavern 01-09-2019 10:34 AM
Didn't Take Long
 
Well, that didn't take long to become contentious. My question is why was this posted in the Lake Winnipesaukee Forum in the first place? Other than it's an article about New Hampshire, what's it got to do with the lake?

DEJ 01-09-2019 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggd (Post 306185)
I know NH is pro gun
NH is pro second amendment, not pro gun.

Trail Goer 01-09-2019 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pricestavern (Post 306188)
Well, that didn't take long to become contentious. My question is why was this posted in the Lake Winnipesaukee Forum in the first place? Other than it's an article about New Hampshire, what's it got to do with the lake?
You’re kidding right? Last I checked the lake was still in NH, it hasn't moved to another state. This bill is a state bill and will affect the schools around the lake, so this has everything to do with the Lakes Region, just as much as the rest of the state and has every right to be in this forum to bring awareness and allow people to discuss this issue. Maybe it will trigger people to write to their representatives to either show support or not support this bill.


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