You have set up a very poor strawman with the barges and claiming unequal treatment. The reason barges use the town wharf is that is the only way for TOWN RESIDENTS on the islands to get access for building materials, septic pump outs, etc. So what you characterize as a business using the dock is an entirely proper use for town residents that pay property taxes. Indeed, the main benefits that the island residents get from their costly property taxes are emergency services (ie, the fire boat the selectmen want to be sure is not impaired by seaplanes) and use of this wharf for such purposes (island residents don’t use schools, don’t have roads to maintain, etc.).

Respectfully, the only obvious reason a tour/charter operator teamed up with the store is so there would be a fig leaf for letting planes fly in for an ice cream cone. I’m no pilot, but I have my doubts that a private plane is going to fly in from hundreds of miles away just to get an ice cream cone, particularly when there is no gas facility.

This would be a different conversation entirely if you were not proposing a tour/charter business being based off town property. But without that, you wouldn’t be involved with this to begin with.

One has to wonder where these plane riders will park their vehicles..................

The thing you are missing is that no one objects to the barges themselves. We all recognize that they are important to our neighbors in various ways, and they are not much more intrusive or dangerous than a boat.

People do have a variety of objections to planes and/or this type of business usage of a dock. So as you might expect, they are in no hurry to enable planes on their (town's) facility.

Barge operators are not asking the town to modify the existing dock. They use it as is.

Secondly you are not entitled to equal access if the means of use requires special consideration. Just in the same way an 18 wheeled big rig can't just operate wherever they want as some roads are not equipped to handle a truck of it's size and weight.

I think the town needs to put higher dock posts up with night time lighting installed. That would be far more beneficial to the residents. Maybe I'll write the town and suggest that.

Welcome to the Winnipesaukee Forum, and thank you for your willingness to accept and respond to questions or criticism.

I think it is a great opportunity for you to respond to anyone who does have legitimate questions and to answer their concerns.

My question is where do you plan to refuel your plane, and how often do you project you will need to refuel? Are some special precautions in place to assure none of the fuel will get into the lake during the refueling process?

Again, thank you for answering member questions.

By strawman you mean... Good point?

I didn't catch your name.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

No- strawman means the opposite, but you knew that. Which is why there is no valid response as to the purpose of barges and their inherent benefit for and need by town island residents, as compared to, here, only your pecuniary business interests.

You’ll catch my name at the town meeting, if this “proposal” gets that far. That is because I, unlike you apparently, am a town resident that pays for this wharf with my property taxes.

Good businesses need to be good neighbors. Neither you nor the store are off to a good start here.

At the risk of being a nudge, would you kindly provide some info on how long it takes to load/unload and taxi and how many flights you'd be looking to do on a normal day?

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That's a great question! Loading and unloading would not take any longer than a boat loading and unloading.

And as far as how many times a plane would come in and out it is undetermined. However a 30-minute flight would take an entire hour including safety briefing, loading, taxiing, docking and unloading. I hope that helps.

I appreciate everyone's input and questions...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I am a town resident that pays my taxes for the pier as well...

I appreciate your passion. Hiding behind a keyboard throwing darts isn't very productive to a good conversation. Feel free to call me up and discuss this at length.

Thank you.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

So, for each flight, the plane would be at the town wharf for approximately a half hour, and a half hour in the air? Or close to a half hour at the dock per flight? Your statement that it would “not take any longer than a boat loading and unloading” seems either disingenuous or intentionally misleading, as you’re omitting the safety briefing and other time at the dock.

And presuming that you want to make a profit, you would have the maximum number of flights that you could operate in a day, right? How many flights would that be in a day? 8 flights back to back for a full 8-hour day? 10 or 12 on weekends? And if you need to do safety briefings and loading/unloading at the dock for a half hour, you’re looking to potentially occupy the town owned wharf for half of the day for your business, no?

Saying it is undetermined is avoiding a fair question—it is what I would call assertion of “the businessman’s Fifth Amendment” privilege against self-incrimination. You should at least disclose what the maximum number of flights per day would be.

I'm open to a rational discussion but you keep adding things in that aren't true. I understand your opposition but you are twisting things into something it is not.

You are reading into things and letting your emotion get a hold of you.

I stand by my comment that loading and unloading will not take any longer than a boat. You making a statement that I will be at the dock for a half an hour is incorrect.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Then disclose what you would consider to be the maximum time your plane would be at the town dock on any given day, and how you get to that amount of time. Hiding behind assertions of “emotion” getting in the way of rational discussion and questions isn’t helpful to your cause. These are real and legitimate questions that you are refusing to answer here and instead respond with intentional ambiguities.

Town residents aren’t naive. We know what it takes to run a successful business. And a few minutes every couple hours at the dock doesn’t add up.

You say I'm hiding information. Do you think I would come on to this forum and answer questions if I were hiding?

I grew up in this town. I went to high school here.

I have never made any accusations that the people of this town are not smart. That would be insulting myself.

I could give a hypothetical like I did to the selectman and the fireman, but I cannot be specific because the business has not started. You know this you are just being an antagonist. Again I invite you to call me at anytime and discuss rather than be a keyboard warrior in disguise. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like you are being extremely disrespectful.

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.

Again I ask for your name so we can keep this respectful and transparent.

However, this is a distraction from the issue at hand which is asking the town to lower the docks posts.

You are framing your argument as anti-business use of the town pier. There are businesses using the pier now.

If your argument is anti-airplane then that is a completely different argument and discriminatory.

Have a wonderful day.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

So we’re starting to get some helpful information here, thank you. Based on that, the maximum flights would be around 9 per day. And how long per flight would you be at the dock? You already said each flight is only 30 mins in the air. So what am I missing as to how you would not be at the dock for approx a half hour per flight, ie up to 4.5 hours per day?

I am being as respectful as I can. Pressing you for answers is not disrespectful. You came onto a semi-public forum to plead your case. Expect to be pressed.

You keep asking that we take this discussion private. But that is part of the problem you first encountered by trying to use town property for commercial purposes without meaningful public disclosure. The public should hear your answers and see this discussion. As you can see from my profile, I am a Tuftonboro island resident—pressing for more is just attempting to suppress discussion on this forum over something you, not I, need town approval for.

I guess I'm caught up in the timing piece. 10-7 with one flight per hour is 8 or 9 taxiings/loadings/unloadings/safety briefings. I can't imagine that process being less than half an hour? That being the case, and adding some time to wait for late/slow passengers, I gotta think you'd be using the public space for at least 4-5 hours a day? And let's say you've got an empty slot—where would the plane go then?

It sounds like you've got the taking off/landing piece and other details thought out, but, as a boater who uses those public docks, I'm struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there.

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Perhaps Epic and the Dive employ the same public relations consultant??

There are plenty of businesses that use the town owned wharf but do not base their business off of it. Like think said I also am struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there. Guess time will tell, anyone know when the public hearing will be?

Thanks for your opinion. I have a question for you. When you dock at the town pier in your boat what is the time limit before someone asks you to leave?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

That is an assumption that is incorrect on your part. The business is not based at the town dock.

I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered.

My FAA approved operating certificate allows me to pick up and drop off anywhere that it is legal. There are no stipulations attached. Someone could reserve a flight from anywhere in the area and I would be able to pick them up and drop them off as long as I had access. I am simply asking for equal access to the town pier.

I hope that message is loud and clear.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Apples and oranges. Private use (purpose of town property) vs commercial use (not).

Please explain how both my and thinkxingu got the math wrong here on how long you’d be using the town wharf (and refer to prior discussion of evading direct questions with intentional ambiguities).

The differences are:
1. I'm not making money off of using the public space.
2. It's once every-so-often, not every day or multiple days.
3. It's for one period of time, not a whole portion of day.

Also, what do you plan to do to keep the space available? Specifically, what will happen if all the spots are filled when you come to land?

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Your message is loud and clear and it appears the good folks in Tuftonboro see right through your attempt to use town property for your private business. You are not helping yourself with these comments. Perhaps we should thank you for them. When is the public hearing or whatever you want to call it going to be Epic?

First off I am completely open to civil discussion and answering questions.

As a resident of cow Island you should know that there are plenty of people who use the town pier to make money. Ie commercial barges. Are you insinuating that commercial barges should be treated differently?

I think you are the one that is mixing apples and oranges. You make an argument that business shouldn't be able to use the town dock. But you yourself higher businesses that use the town dock. That is the definition of hypocrisy.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

The town pier has a 3 hour limit.

It is interesting to me that you are having trouble answering questions that would appear to me to be central to your business plan. You know your fixed costs, and you can estimate your variable costs. I assume you also know what your revenue/flight is. Based on that you should be able to estimate your flights per day and the amount of time you will use the dock. Have you thought of paying the town a per flight fee for use of dock space and guaranteeing a per day fee?


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Invoking “discrimination” here is borderline offensive and not at all what is going on. If you are referring to the barges, see discussion above as to how those are being used as a necessity for town island residents to inhabit the islands.

The town wharf is not open for commercial use on a first come first serve basis. I can’t park my food truck there all day. A realtor can’t locate a sales shed there. A seaplane tour/charter business is not different.

You still haven’t answered my and thinkxingu‘s direct question...

Epic, I realize that it might appear as if we're ganging up on you, but that's not my intention. Thank you kindly for answering my questions, and good luck!

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Your comparisons are completely absurd. I think the more you talk I think the more the lurking readers of this forum see your point of view. I appreciate you exposing that and discussing this with me. You are completely discriminating against me because I fly an airplane.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Follow-up question
 

Epic Seaplane Adventure:

I have been following this thread as best as I can. Can you please clarify:

1) Is it accurate to say that the maximum time that your seaplane would be at the dock is 4-5 hours on any one day? I believe that the maximum time I am allowed to dock my boat at some of the town docks is 3-4 hours.

2) If I understand it correctly, the plane would need to be docked for approx. 30 minutes before it takes off. How long would it be at the dock to unload the passengers after it returns?

3) Would the reservations be sequential? If not, and there is a one or two hour gap between the end of one flight and the beginning of another flight, where would the seaplane go? Would it stay at the town dock?

4) Where would your passenger customers park there vehicles while they are on your plane?

Thank you.

STOP the discrimination nonsense Epic!!! We are posting our opinions. I ask again when is the public hearing on your proposal scheduled for?

No discrimination here. So I can be crystal clear, I oppose use of town property as a base for any commercial operations. Incidental use, such as the barges picking up lumber for island residents, residents docking to use the store, and island realtors dropping off and picking up clients has always been the case. That is incidental commercial use. Basing a seaplane or any other business on town property for commercial use is very different.

And you still haven’t explained how my math of having a plane at the dock for half the day is wrong, which we will have to take as confirmation.

That is BS. Cow Times is right. As a tax paying town resident I need access to the pier for my contractors. They are not asking the town to make any accommodation for them to use the pier. I believe that your last response is one that someone backed into a corner would make. I’m still trying to understand how running your business out of the town pier is different then parking a food truck on the dock.


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Do you own a barge? You hire the barge to do a service correct? There is no difference.
Period. You are masking your discrimination by using your "entitlement" that you are an Island resident.

You don't like airplanes we get it.

Thanks [emoji106]

Epic Seaplane Adventures

By definition it is discrimination...

noun
1.
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things...

Epic Seaplane Adventures

As I see it it is quite different, the barge loads good and vacates the dock. Maybe there an hour or so as material is secured to the deck. To not return until the next load. Maybe same day maybe not.

So, you came on here looking for an open discussion and when you’re pressed you get obstinate and a bit unhinged. It does not help your case by accusing people who will be affected by this operation of discrimination and insulting them. You’re argument of the barge use at the town dock is laughable. No matter how you slice it you are going to “base” your enterprise on the town dock and make money from its use. Residents who use the barges for delivery of supplies do so only sparingly, maybe once a season. You’re talking about several days a week, several times a day. If a barge operator were to sit at the town dock and hit up people for work or services, you might have a point. Even if you want to play semantics and say it’s not based there because you’re office is really in the garage at home, you’re still operating the business from a common place. The town dock.

Epic, when is the hearing scheduled for or has it not been scheduled yet?

I like planes. And I probably would’ve been a customer if you had a private base or were located at an airport. Not a town owned wharf. And my verdict is still open if you were based at a private dock in the bay (I would want to better understand the safety issues there).

Tell me, please. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to park my food truck on the wharf for half the day? Or tie up my pontoon with an ice cream stand?

By feigning discrimination, you are ignoring the fundamental differences between basing a commercial operation on the wharf and incidental use. You say the operation would not be based there—but if tours take off there, land there, have safety briefings there, and park there, and have the plane there for half the day, it’s based there.

CowTimes, he has the ability to operate his business from his private dock on mirror lake where he keeps his plane in the water much of the summer. He could advertise these scenic flights right from there and avoid the congestion and fireboat and emergency vehicle issues and wharf issues etc... by conducting his business there. Problem solved.