Sandbars
 

I’m glad the issue of the sandbars has been brought up again. As much as I hate to see over 100 boats anchored in Braun Bay with people standing in their own urine, I feel that the Dive’s presence there was actually a little positive. It at least gave the people a chance to get out of the water and use the restroom.

People have been looking for a place to anchor and swim forever. It started to be a big issue in the Kona Farm area starting in the late 70s when boats would anchor in front of others homes. There was a lot of anger and shouting on both sides.

So it was a good thing initially that these few boats found Braun Bay. But why the town or the state has let so many boats go there and pollute not only the water, but are affecting the peace and quality of life of all the neighbors who owns waterfront as well.

If one thing is obvious, it’s that there will be more and more people wanting to access the lake and fewer and fewer places for these people to go.

Does anyone know, why the state park land in Braun Bay has never been developed? There are many, many acres there that could be utilized in someway to get the people out of the water.

When I first saw pictures of the Dive in Braun Bay this summer, my thought came to the state park land. Why can’t they put docks in so the boats can tie up? Why can’t they have a few picnic tables? Why can’t they have a few porta potties or other low-cost bathroom facilities?
Everyone would be responsible for taking their garbage with them, as so many parks are now.
If the boats are going to constantly use this area, I feel that it should be more regulated. And there should be a limit as to how many boats are allowed every day.

Susie C.

The unintended consequence of regulating the sandbars like Braun Bay or Smalls Cove is that boaters will seek other places to hang out and those places WILL be in front of peoples homes.

Woodsy

I feel the same way about sand bars, IMO. Just the thought of it is nasty! The only time I will go is during the week early. As soon as it starts to get crowded I'm out of there quick.

The Dive
 

So Woodsy, what’s the answer?
Do you let 200 boats anchor there every day? Do you let 300 boats?

I don’t know what the answer is, but something has to be done soon. It’s just going to get worse and worse.

One reason its getting worse, more crowded on the lake is because marinas that run out of dock/slip space start building dry rack storage and that adds even more boats to the lake. West Alton Marina I think was approved for 200 more slips?

As far as Braun Bay/Smalls Cove (sandbars), there is a capacity, only so many boats can fit. I don't think its any worse than when I first went to Braun and Smalls in the 80's. I recall them being crazy and crowded to capacity back then as well. It may even be better now as most boats did not have heads or porta pots back then.

This is what has happened with rafting as well. People that want to raft are now pushed to fewer and fewer areas that are not restricted because there are so many no rafting zones.

It is a cycle and usually self corrects with the economy. When the economy heads towards and enters a recession period boats are one of the first things to go and the lake traffic thins out quite dramatically as it did in 2009.

Susie...

The sandbars at Braun & Smalls are fairly self regulating in that the number of boats allowed is dictated by the No Rafting Zone. Yes the rules get bent somewhat, but that is a small price to pay given the alternative unintended consequence. The lake is full when it comes to boats (have you seen the price of slips? YIKES!) and the State/Towns show no restraint when it comes to allowing the marinas build more valet storage facilities. Until the economy takes a dive, this is the new reality.

Woodsy

Sandbars
 

I don’t remember what year it was but I’m guessing it was sometime in the 80s. It could be the marina that is in Meredith now, I’m not sure. But they were selling boat slips for the first time on the lake, ever.
I remember everyone talking about it and saying, can you believe it? That people would actually pay money just to be able to park the boat?

I imagine the cost of a slip now is more than it was to buy a camp way back when.

I don't know much about Smalls cove, But Braun Bay is certainly not self regulating. All the No Rafting Zone rules have done is spread the boats out over more of the shoreline, such that some boats, are no longer on the Sandbar itself. In short the mass of people is just spread out over a larger area of the bay. I don't have any problem with it, but to say that it is self regulated by the No Rafting Zone rules is, not at all accurate...

As for Valet Storage facilities, I don't think there really has been a substantial increase in the regards for a while. The real damage was done a while ago. but it is what it is..... The lake is crowded don't go blaming it on one thing or another, because it suits your point or agenda......

Her are some facts from my neighborhood on the lake....

30 years ago
- One lot not even developed
- of 15 or 16 houses on the water, only two had multiple boats....

today
- All lots developed
- over half the homes have multiple boats/Jet ski

Bottom line people keep investing at the lake, be it developing their lake front property, or multiple family members investing in boats.... At time the docks at a multi boat home are empty, meaning 2 or more vessels out on the water.....

Winnipesaukee, is a paradise, one could argue it has been developed too far. But there isn't a singular problem. There are many, and many people and entities to blame.

I am not worried about the next economic down turn changing things on the lake...... I am worried about the over use of the lake bring about change, as water quality continues to go down. The area has already lost its charm as a place to get away.... its already too crowded to get away from anything.....

I do absolutely agree with your concerns charm has been lost to an extent, the lake was extremely crowded and long term water quality is an issue. For the first time in my 15 years I found it extremely difficult to get a space at the various town docks even during the week. Yes a downturn will thin out the lake but it certainly is not a resolution to the issues but I’m not sure there is a resolution.


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It's not just the lake that's getting over crowded, the roads are too. My drive from home in Ma with no traffic is 1-1/2 hours. The only time I can get there that quick is after midnight. It routinely takes me 2 - 2-1/2 hours most weekends. In August it can be as much as 3 hours.
My best friend has a place on the Cape and he says traffic has been lighter because of the shark sightings. He said pool installs on the Cape are at an all time high.
I think we need some lake shark sightings or maybe some kind of lake monster that destroys boats. :D

If you do the math, you'll discover that worrying about urine there is absurd. If you count only the water that is over the sandbar, about 4 million gallons, and assume 400 people (4 people per boat on average) release 2 quarts of urine each, the water will contain .005% urine. Of course the water over the sand mixes with the other much deeper water in the bay and not many people are going to release a half gallon of urine, so the mix is surely one tenth of that or less. Also, don't forget urine is utterly harmless to humans and made up of 95% water.

The popular sand bars look really crowded because of the boats. If you take all the boats out and leave just the people, it would not be at all crowded at roughly 100 people per acre.

Well that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, YUK! With that kind of reasoning there's no reason to have a bathroom sink, just wash up in the toilet. :emb:

Sandbar
 

Dave, if you had a pool in your backyard and realized no one ever got out to use the bathroom, how would you feel? Are you saying it wouldn’t bother you at all knowing that other people are peeing in your pool? You could just swim around and not care?

Yes,in Braun Bay, you are in urine being diluted in the water, but that doesn’t mean I would want to swim in it.
That’s not what I taught my kids, and it’s just not right.
I love it when people always say that it’s too small to matter. Didn’t they say that about the oceans, and now we pretty much destroyed those!

Did urine kill the oceans? I wasn't aware of that.

Where does fish pee go?

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Sandbar
 

No,urine didn’t kill the oceans, ha,ha.

So you think its only sandbars? Do you think all the lake front owners, their families and their guests who are swimming in front of their lakefront homes are getting out of the water to go into the house to use the restroom?

Why are you worried? Your not going to the sandbars so no problem.

If I were you I would be more worried about all the run off entering the lake.

My daughter chemically treats her pool every day for that reason. No one is chemically treating the water at the sand bar.
I won't go swimming in public pools. It's just too nasty.
But if others don't mind it then have at it!:D

Taz is right!

You should be more worried about runoff (erosion, fertilizer, oil, pesticides, dirt, bacteria, and other pollutants) than some urine in the lake 20 days out of 365!

If people are worried so much about the lake and overuse... petition your lawmakers to limit the marina growth! (Good luck with that!)

Woodsy

Sandbar
 

Taz, don’t even get me started on the run off. That is one of my biggest pet peeve’s.

People do not need to plant grass. They are not in the city anymore. Their yards do not need to be perfect.

I agree with you on that. I am disgusted to see the enormous lawns leading down to the shore in front of these homes.

Grass isn’t the issue. It’s the fertilizer people use. There are natural products to treat the lawn or in actuality you do not have to treat it just let it grow naturally. I agree that the fertilizers and pesticides should not be used.


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Sandbars
 

You’re right, Joey. People can let it go natural and by putting the seed down it will help the soil from eroding. But for most people this is not enough. They want it to look beautiful and perfect, so they fertilize it and spray it with Roundup, and it all ends up in the lake.

The lake is "treated" by virtue of massive dilution effect, and thousands of gallons of new water entering almost daily.

Anyone who is worried about urine at a sandbar, but not about fish and duck excrement in the water, is using some very strange logic.

Hanging out at the sandbar is fun, and I am not so foolish as to think the rest of the world is "sterile" relative to a sandbar. There is probably more "urine" on the door handles of most public places than there is at the average sandbar at peak discharge ;)

Pool sign
 

Friends of ours had a pool, and on the fence, they had a sign:

We don't swim in your toilet.
Please don't pee in our pool!

Maybe we can get a similar sign at the popular sand bars. ;)

Dave

Do you know how many diseases are passed through bodily fluids. Like I said, if you like it have at it! I'll pass.
Nurses and doctors wear gloves, masks, and scrubs before they touch other people bodily fluids but you people think it's fun to swim in it.
I'm, by no means, a sterilization freak but the thought of standing or swimming in a area with 100's of drunk people peeing is not my idea of fun. To each his own. :rolleye1:

You forgot the geese. Those guys can really leave a mess!!!!

Pee in a backyard pool would not bother me at all, but then I've had sushi in Mexico, so I'm probably not typical when it comes to germ worries.

Fish, birds, otters, turtles, beavers, muskrats, etc. poop and pee in the lake all the time. It's really not a big deal.

FWIW, I'm on the ocean all the time, does not seem destroyed to me. It's teeming with life and beautiful.

Sandbars
 

I am on the Gulf Coast of Florida now. Red tide has become a huge issue down here. They try to keep it as quiet as they can because they don’t want to scare the tourists away.
Siesta Key is consistently voted the Best beach is the U.S.
But the Red Tide was so bad last year, with so many dead fish every day washing ashore, tons and tons picked up and disposed every day until there was no place to put them. This went on for months and months.

Some schools close to the water gave the children masks to wear over their faces to help with the smell.

Many organizations are studying Red Tide and millions and millions of dollars have been spent and are being allocated to find what the causes are. It has been suggested that it could be failing septic systems, overuse or fertilizers, or any number of other problems.

Sandbars
 

And our aquariums are full of manatees, dolphins, turtles, and other aquatic wildlife being rehabilitated. Some have so much plastic in them, because there is no food anymore and they eat anything that they can find.

Take a visit to the Clearwater Aquarium and see Winter, the dolphin, star of the movie A Dolphin’s Tale. See how we have destroyed the ocean and everything in it for yourselves.

Do the towns still dump raw sewage into the ocean ?

Sandbars
 

Thankfully, no. I should say, Not as far as I know.

That's unfortunate. Glad it has not been an issue where I go. I doubt it's urine that's caused it though.

Sandbars
 

We have to look at what is going on around us not just in our own backyard. Sargassum Seaweed has formed a 5500 mile archipelago from Africa to Mexico. Cancun has become a smelly mess. We need to stop thinking that we’re not causing problems and think before we act.
I have always felt that every little bit helps. That anything we can do to protect our natural wonders is important.

So I try to live as naturally as possible, I’ve been actually pulling weeds all day in my yard, and I’m happy to say that I’m not alone, other people do too.

I don't believe they do any longer but during heavy rainfalls I believe most sewage treatment plants can get overfilled and release untreated sewage.

I guess urine the right town. :emb:

The cities have spills of hundreds of thousands of gallons in the intercostal. There is no excuse for it.

Sandbars
 

All this talk about Braun Bay and sandbars and urine brings up the question of the hundreds of people climbing Mt Major over the Columbus (oops!, Indigenous Peoples) Day long weekend. Maybe they recycle their urine in the form of perspiration. Enough of this.

Many rest rooms available
 

For some, there's a rest room behind nearly every tree on the mountain. :rolleye1:

Now back to the sandbars.

Dave

Sandbars
 

Urine is sterile and is made up of 95% water. And fish pee in the water too.These are the two rebuttals that I have heard justifying why peeing in the lake is OK.
I decided to do a little research. It didn’t take long to find a lot of information. Some of what I found is:
Human urine is different than fish urine, it contains urea. Urea helps the body read itself of nitrogen. The nitrogen in urea acts as a fertilizer.

In 2012, Time Magazine ran an article about a lake in Germany that was closed due to excessive algae bloom. Researchers determined that fish had been poisoned due to a significant amount of human urine in the lake.

I mentioned in a previous thread about the big problems in Mexico. After analyzing the nutrients that were released from the ground water into the ocean from the thousands of hotels along the Mexican Riviera, they found nitrates and phosphates that come from human waste, mostly urine, are suffocating the coral as well.

The great barrier reef in Australia has put up signs warning people not to pee around the coral because it is being destroyed.

So for all you people who don’t mind swimming in the pee, maybe you should start thinking in a different way.
As I said before, there are warnings all around us. We can’t ignore what’s going on in other places and say it’s not going to happen here.

Someone said that the pee was not killing the fish. I guess it is after all.

Sandbars
 

And one more reason why no one should be peeing in the lake.
Urine contains trace amount of pharmaceuticals including estrogen from birth control pills that can disrupt the normal reproductive cycle in male fish.

I hope this is food for thought, especially all those people who are concerned about fertilizer runoff and pesticides going into the lake.

I am pretty new to the Winnepesaukee Forum. Do we have a science teacher on here?

:(
 

Don't know about science teachers but there's a whole bunch of science deniers....

They test beaches throughout the summer and close them when the bacteria level is too high. No one is testing the sand bars. If you're standing in that and you have a break in your skin then you're at risk for infection.
Who here likes pee soup? :)

Sandbars
 

It really is beyond ridiculous to me to explain to Grown-ups why we should pee in the toilet, and not the lake.
Isn’t this something you’re taught as a child?

It could be due to the fact that when we bought our camp back in the late 50s our waterline ran from the house and went into the lake about 30 feet. My dad pointed this out to us, And told us never to pee in the lake because we would be drinking it. I don’t know about the rest of you, but if given a choice, I would rather not be drinking water that should be in the toilet.

Ya think Braun Bay is crowded, bet you haven't been to other big lakes! Now that's a crowd!

I heard Lake Havasu and Lake Powell are extremely crowded. You might have first hand knowledge

Thing about Lake Powell though is no matter how busy it is you can find privacy. That lake is amazing and soo much different than Winni in all aspects

Also I agree, people here really don't know what to complain about in comparison to other places. 1 day at Havasu half of the forum would have a heart attack, last year for a boat brand owners reunion we had 100 boats tied up together for the day and it was considered a "small" event....

Where are those lakes?

Out west
 

Out west, Nevada & Arizona, I think.

Dave.

Sandbars
 

Havasu is In Arizona-and Powell in Nevada. They are very popular recreational lakes along with Lake of the Ozarks in Missouri and Lake Norman in NC . All much more crowded than Winnipesaukee


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Do you live by the shore either on Winnipesaukee, the gulf coast, or both?

Yes out west the created nice facilities at most places where boating is popular.... I lived out along the Columbia river for years growing up... there was plenty of public docking and launch ramps where generally 4+ lane wide at all the state parks.....

Sandbars
 

Dave, I don’t understand exactly what you’re asking me. I presently live on the Gulf Coast of Florida, about 15 miles from the beaches.

I have been a resident of New Hampshire in the past, but I do not own any property now.

My parents retired and became permanent residents on the lake in 1972. They stayed there until they died, my mom died five years ago now.

My sister got married in 1973 and stayed in New Hampshire. She has lived on the lake with her husband permanently since 1980 something.
I have spent many summers and winters on the lake with my family and my children and now my grandchildren. I have nothing but wonderful memories.

Don't pee in the lake, don't shampoo in the lake, don't litter in the lake, don't rinse oily rags in the lake, etc. It's common sense.

As to the sandbars, I have no interest in spending the day with hundreds of others, but if that's what people want to do and they are following the rules, have at it.

Taking a bath and shampooing in the lake is part of experiencing summer at the lake! If I could install a outdoor shower with a view.....


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No shampoo or soap in the lake Winni.

But when I read your post it did make me think of something. What do you think of people who shower, later swim in the lake and go in and take another shower. We just don't understand that. We don't feel the lake is dirty and that you need to take a shower after you swim. (except maybe if you are at the sand bars) I understand the ocean because you want to wash the salt off, but the lake?

So I am just wondering what most do most of you do? Do you take a shower after swimming?

I do not immediately shower after swimming in the lake. I know some are concerned with duck itch but I tend to swim in the quieter or deeper water areas and feel clean after a lake swim.


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People in dire situations have survived drinking their own urine, so I guess it all depends on how thirsty you are...

Summer time, family at the house, and long weekends equals days of swimming and few showers! I do keep a bar of soap in the boat house.


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Please FLL, I beg you, chime in.
 

One of those moments where FLL can actually add some sanity to a post.

Has anyone mentioned bears and well, you know, in the woods?

Good freaking lord.

If we read the same article, you forgot to mention that it said "in theory", not a fact. I would consider that to be a pretty big deletion on your part, maybe even consider it to be "fake news"... However, for the sake of argument, "if" it is true, then what is the "ratio" of urine to a body of fresh water that is harmful to the fish??? I think that information would be helpful. Why is it not available...??? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for preserving the environment, but I don't think peeing in a lake is a big deal, and I will more than likely continue to do so. Maybe there should be a fishing tournament limited to Braun Bay, and see how that goes compared to the rest of the lake. Is there any fisherman on here that can vouch for the fishing in Braun Bay?

Duck itch is an allergic reaction. Not everyone gets it.

LIforrelaxin Thank you.

Thank you for your comments. Maybe I am showing my age-ism a little bit here, but after 65 summers on the lake I've seen the water quality change from over 40'visibility to less than 20'; from drinking water pumped directly out of the lake to having to drill a 360' well; from people coming to the lake to enjoy the quiet, the trees, and the lake to 40'boats roaring up and down the lake that could be heard for several miles, and people clear-cutting their land to get a better view while we have to look at an eyesore in the forest; from small, quaint summer cottages to McMansions (however you want to define that); from fishermen and their small, wooden boats with 25HP Evenrudes at 5am to boats with every electronic gadget imaginable out catching fish as easily as shooting fish in a barrel; from leisurely rides to town on Sunday to having to leave your boat in the dock after 10am rather than having to brave the washing machine waves of the Weirs. The lake has gone from the idealic lake so beautifully depicted in Peter Ferber's paintings to something out of Picasso. Yes, the lake has changed in 65 years, and none of it for the better. But I still wouldn't trade my summers at Winnipesaukee for a vacation anywhere else in the world. There is still something magical about the place.

Yes thank you I am aware. Thankfully my family and I do not have an issue

It's unfortunate but these problems aren't just confined to the lake. I've lived in my Ma neighborhood for 65 years also and when I was a little guy there were very few houses and our neighbors were like family. Now I hardly know any of my neighbors and traffic is so bad that I can't get out of my own driveway from 8am to 10am and 4pm to 6pm.
Progress comes at a cost and sometimes we don't realize that cost until many years later.
It seems like everything takes a back seat today to the race for the almighty buck!

Attachment 15595

Good news Y’all.

I found a solution to the urine problem in Braun Bay. We just need a few of these “FLOATING SANITATION FACILITIES” (FSFs)

These remote floating restrooms are not only for boaters convenience but they will also improve the water quality for thousands of Laconia residents that get their drinking water from Lake Winnipesaukee.

Details:

ARAMARK Corporation Construction Division constructed the floating sanitation facilities. Although a number of different configurations have been constructed to meet varying design requirements, the FSFs typically have one accessible restroom, one standard restroom, a porta-potty dump station, and two hand-operated boat holding-tank pumpout stations. The FSFs can be anchored in open water with a unique self-leveling anchorage system with no labor or maintenance required.

The typical floating steel platform is 28 feet by 32 feet and has a 4,000-gallon holding tank. The minimum recommended 20- by 20-foot platform will carry a 1,000-gallon holding tank. The deck is constructed of a long-lasting fiberglass material. Lake water is used for flushing. A double-walled holding tank fixed below the structure’s floor stores the effluent. Solar panels supply the power.

The FSFs are cleaned and checked weekly, and pumped out once or twice a year. The toilets are removed from the lake and stored during the winter.

You’re Welcome. 🤣[emoji97][emoji97]

P.S. I can’t wait for someone to calculate how quickly the Braun Bay rafters will be able to fill up the 4,000 gallon holding tanks!



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It Floats...It Floats...
 

All pollutants should be a concern. Some bacteria reduce "pollutants" to their natural components.

But urine leaves the bodies of vertebrates at body temperature. With humans, warm urine "floats" near the surface until wind disrupts the water column. Both Braun Bay and Johnson's Cove share the misfortune of not being affected by strong winds.

Urine contains "heavy" inorganic and organic componds--and given enough time--most urine will sink of its own accord. At low-oxygen depths, "benthic" bacteria convert all compounds, tiny amphipods flourish, and create a hidden environment all its own.

.....

Lake Winnipesaukee belongs to the State of New Hampshire.

If Governor John Lynch-D was presently the governor of New Hampshire, it's a good fair question: Would The Dive be allowed to operate on the sandbars as it does?

We know that with Governor Sununu-R in charge of the executive that The Dive is allowed to operate, spuds down, into the sandbars.

Gov John Lynch signed the 45-mph speed limits bill into law in July, 2008. Would Gov Chris Sununu be signing a 45-mph speed limits bill into law in July, 2020?

What do you think?

Attachment 15599
4,000 gallon holding tank X 128 ounces per gallon = 512,000 ounces. There are 12 ounces in a beer, so 512,000 divided by 12 equals 42,666 beers. If there are 400 people in Braun Bay on a Saturday, that’s 106 Beers per person to fill up the Floating Sanitation Facility.
Cheers! [emoji481][emoji482][emoji481]


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Where is That Winnipesaukee Caffeine Study?
 

If it wasn't apparent in the concurrent discussion of Fishers ("Fisher-cats"), my science background is in Zoölogy.

I can get pretty deep into scientific papers written on lakewater quality. ;) (Maybe "translate" for the forum?)
:o

And, yes, you'd have been correct a few years ago; however, WebMD has new information:
https://www.webmd.com/women/news/201...n-water-supply

If you get out of the lake in deep water (end of dock, or back into boat), you're unlikely to get it. Wind and wave action concentrates the parasites in shallow water.

While it is an allergic reaction, it's much like a mosquito bite. (They're "out there", waiting for you). ;)

The Governor stepped in and allowed this plate to stay on the car. Pathetic that it had to get to that point, but it did...

...... PB4WEGO ...... sure, that's planning ahead and a smart move for kids or adults heading out in a car or boat. Is most likely a standard practice for most all boaters.

With The Dive anchored spuds down into the sandbars, and its' adult beverages, how many adults actually end up peeing into the lake?

What do you think? ............................... www.facebook.com/thedivelakewinni/ .................................... now, what do you think?

Maybe The Dive could post a couple/three similar 'PB4-U-Leave' license plate suggestion notices on-board their restaurant-barge that encourages patrons to use their toilet before going from barge to lake to personal boat ..... as a public service, keep the lake clean, reminder!

Maybe a well dressed, friendly 'door supervisor' who encourages patrons to 'PB4-U-Leave' as they disembark from The Dive ...... just imagine the late, great Chris Farley acting out this door supervisor job. ......:laugh:

So I have often thought about this solution, there are however some issues that need to be resolved however:

1. Who take on the responsibility of maintenance Towns? The State Park service? the Marine Patrol? Fish and Game? (by maintance, I mean monitoring, cleaning, season removal etc. )

2. How does something like this get paid for? added fee for boaters? some new tax? Point of use charge?

You can see where I am going, while something like this would be great, all the red tape means it will take a long time to get done..........

calculation
 

You'll have to separate the solids into two specific gravities, sinkers and floaters, in order to obtain an accurate result.

Just a passing thought: As many on the lake do, my water intake for the house is about 60 feet from shore, 4 feet off the bottom, in about 15 feet of water. It provides great, very clean water.

I would have a whole different feeling when showering if the intake was in Braun Bay!