Fire in Loon Cove today.
 

Picture is courtesy of @myWinnipesaukee on Twitter

Another lakeside home fire!


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Anyone with more info?


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It was awful! The house is destroyed and the boat caught on fire too. So sad for the owners.

So sad, I hope no one was hurt.

It would be interesting to know the story from the fire department's perspective. I would guess that there was a water supply problem.

In the picture the lone firefighter appears to be standing without putting any water on the fire. There appear to be two unmanned hand lines at his feet and it looks like he is holding one. The lines would typically be 1 3/4 inches and flow about 300 GPM so it wouldn't take long to deplete a fixed water supply. They look charged but maybe the only water available was the water in the fire truck's tank and they were preserving it?

I don't mean to imply anything negative, I am just curious about what was going on.

There is an article in the Laconia Sun without much more information. The picture with that article shows the fire had grown substantially.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...8b412123c.html

No town water
 

No town water that far out rte 11 (Loon Cove is at the eastern end of 11D).

Not sure how much draw a pumper has and how easy access to water was. Also, I don't believe that Boat 1 is in service yet.

It was a little breezy and I'd say that it was fortunate that there was little or no damage to adjacent structures.

Dave

They called in the Gilford Fire Boat for assistance from what I saw on facebook.

We drove by the area yesterday afternoon and noticed over 10 fire trucks up toward Ellacoya park. We didn't notice any smoke in that area and speculated they were staging a Mutual Aid exercise. They were probably tanking up to stand ready for this fire because it is soooooo dry.

There is something very wrong about a situation involving limited water to fight a fire in a lakeside home (read: next to a huge water source). If the only present option is to back a pumper to within a few feet of the lake so the big suction line can connect truck to lake, obviously many or most properties preclude getting the truck anywhere near close enough. Why couldn't local fire departments cobble together a floating pump that could be hand-carried by a pair or wheeled to lakefront in a yard cart? Granted, the approach would not work in cases where the house is separated from the lake by a very steep slope, but in the photo above it does look like the approach to waterfront is gradual enough. Sure, a portable system couldn't compete with the pumping power of a fire boat, but it would be better than nothing. Ferrying limited volumes from a remote accessible location using multiple trucks seems like a problem begging for a solution.

Thinking the same thing. What are we missing? The solution appears to be simple, so I ask again, what are we missing? What don’t we know. Two lakeside house fires in the past week and both are total loses.


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............

So sad....

The letter from AFD does not specify who was burning leaves but my question is this: If a homeowner sets his/her house on fire by burning leaves without a permit on a windy day will the insurance company still pay up?

Interesting question. Does negligence void an insurance policy?

I would think they might not. The not having a permit thus what they were doing to cause this was illegal certainly would give the insurance company grounds to say no to covering the loss.

Insurance Coverage
 

Homeowner/Fire insurance will cover negligent acts resulting in damage by the homeowner. Insurance will not cover intentional damage caused by the homeowner. Provided there was an insurance policy in force the damage should be covered to the extent of the policy limits.

The simple answer being an agent:
Insurance covers stupidity

The logistics make it more complicated than it would seem.

Are you going to carry the pump on the first due engine in each community?
You will also need a hard suction line and strainer to utilize the pump.
Are you able to carry multiple spare gas cans?
When you arrive in the first due pumper who takes care of life safety? Can you spare a couple of men to carry the pump to the water, set it up, and set a feed line to the pumper?
On the high end, a portable pump may be able to feed 100 to 200 GPM. Using that to feed a pumper with a 1,500 GPM capacity would be futile. Using it to feed one line putting water on a substantial house fire wouldn't have a significant effect if the fire was already well underway.

I do know that people out west where large brush fires are often out of control are buying "hose carts" to protect their own homes. It is usually a pump, suction and hose line, and nozzle. You would just need a pond or swimming pool as a water source.

The Alton Fire boat may not have been launched yet. At least I had not noticed it at the dock in the Bay. One mission of the boat is to assist with lake shore structure fires. BTW, the Gilford fie boat was launched about 3 weeks ago.

Alan

I could be wrong but I saw a live video and it looked to me like it was mostly involved before the fire dept. got there. They could have been there and I couldn't see them but it didn't look like it.

Insurance covers stupidity. But...
If the owners were the one burning leaves? I would think will give the insurance company a reason of doubt or speculation. This can give the ins. Company reason to do a long drawn out investigation before paying out..
Regardless. It sounds like the owners and neighbors didn’t experience any physical hardships and everyone is safe.
Kudos to all the firefighters and other responders

It is covered.

As would damage to your roof be covered if you erroneously felled a tree that landed on it.

Or if the house burned down from a lit cigarette you held in your hand while falling asleep.

as having dealt with this in the past unless there is overwhelming evidence, it will not be investigated

who says they have insurance though

From an Underwriter's perspective
 

From the perspective of a Personal Lines Underwriter for over 15 years, in my prior life, there were many times that we wished we had one all inclusive exclusion to our policies: the Aggravated Ignorance clause. Sadly, no insurance department would allow it. :rolleye2::laugh:

Dave

fireguy
 

New to the forum. Been thinking about it for a while, and this thread hits close to home. I feel I need to respond to a few of the above posts, because I was among the first alarm responders. I need to thank TiltonBB for his answers to some of the suggestions of members. He did it much more tactfully than I would have. So here goes. I am in my 5th decade in the fire service. From a medium size town, to a pretty big city, and finally to a town in the lakes region, so I have a decent amount of experience in many aspects of the fire service. First, the above pictures don't show the big picture. There were 3 houses behind, uphill, and downwind of the fire. I learned later that the first 2 engines used their tank water to protect those houses. the fire coming within 3 ft. of the closest house. Had this happened on Mon., with the stronger winds, all 3 houses would have been lost. Second, a fireboat was requested, but an engine from that dept. was already responding on the first alarm. Due to the distance the boat would had to travel, and then set up, the outcome would have been the same. Third, most of the depts. in the lakes region suffer from severe manpower shortages, especially during the day. Most of the depts. on the first alarm responded with 2 people! One couldn't respond due to no manpower. The drivers stay with their rigs and supply water. That leaves 1 firefighter to work the fire! We are ALWAYS short handed, water relays take time, and manpower to set up. Engines from as far away as Belmont, and Rochester responded on the second alarm, a 25-30 min response time! In my opinion Alton FD did an unbelievable job keeping it to one house. On my arrival, several members from Alton were laid out trying to catch their breath. Now solutions. First, Alton's 29yr. old fire boat is not yet in service due to structural, and mechanical reasons. A new boat that is designed and equipped for the fire rescue service will run 400K+-. Second, most depts. have per diem people, who work 12, or 24 hr. shifts. They get no benefits from their towns other than salary. Some towns only staff 7am-7pm, relying on people to come from home. Some don't staff at all on weekends! Those towns who do have full time staff usually have at best 2-3 on any given shift. So, maybe some of the above members can get their Fire 1 certs., put on some gear, strap on a pack, and walk the walk! Third, $$$. Most depts. are under funded by their towns, so to a few of you, open your wallets, let the dust settle, and make a healthy donation to your dept., or association. I do know that Alton is hopefully looking for a new boat. (Hint, Hint). Finally try to refrain from making comments on pictures, and, or fire operations that you clearly Know nothing about. Over and outK

Fire in Loon Cove
 

Excellent answer by someone who apparently knows the fire service from the inside out. The question of insurance can only be answered by an agent representing the company supplying the insurance (if any), so everything and everybody else is speculation.

The primary job of a first responder to a fire scene is the preservation of life, everything else is secondary. Considering the conditions at that fire scene, I would say Alton FD did a superior job.

I've not read all the posts in this thread to know which you took offense to, but as a teacher I can understand the frustration felt when people "out-of-the-know" criticize.

In any case, thanks for your service, explanations, and suggestions on how to support our fire departments—I know that until I'm willing to run into a burning building or pull over a potentially deadly suspect I'll be voting yes on supporting FD and PD in my towns.

Stay safe, friend, and welcome to the forum.

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We appreciate you
 

:banana: I agree Thank you for your service!

Awesome post, 8545. Think echoed something my Dad said to me when I was a little kid--it takes a very special person to go into a burning building.

As I understand it, one huge economic dilemma for towns and fire fighters, is that as society has become safer and safer from fires in general, the rationale for spending adequately so that we are ready for any specific fire becomes more and more difficult.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't spend more, and a boat for $400K on Winni seems like a no brainer. Only that I can see how they have a hard time figuring out how to justify a full set of employees who are called upon only rarely.

I hope you'll offer professional (ie better informed) thoughts on the above. I'd like to learn more

Very knowledgeable, I will agree with that. But, take offense with your attitude towards those that ask questions or comment on what is seen. As a waterfront home owner I see a problem with the current way local fire department handle lakeside home fires. How can the problem be addressed or can it be addressed. Better equipment and more staffing? Maybe, but just tossing more tax dollars at local fire departments before it’s allocation is identified does little to solve the problem identified. If it can be solved at all.
Being the father and father in law of police officers, as many have said. Thank you for your service


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Fire in Loon Cove today
 

Having read these posts, and having thought about this problem, maybe part of the solution should involve discussions at the time plans are being developed for these waterfront homes. Local Code officers could include in their review of plans if any attention is being paid to fire protection, beyond just inside the building. I mean, does the site plan allow for a fire department's pumper to get close enough to the lake to successfully draw water to fight a fire. I am not suggesting a "highway" through somebody's landscaping, but possibly a dry hydrant ought to be incorporated into the plans.

Island properties
 

Excuse my terminology and lack of knowledge in firefighting but......

As an Island property owner and having read this thread, I ask..... other than a garden hose, what means are available for a lakeside home owner to pump water directly from the lake at high volume to at least give us and our neighbors a fighting chance in the event of a fire?

To no fault of the Alton fire dept, a fire on our island could be devastating because of delayed response times to islands.

I feel a gas powered high volume water pump located next to the lake could provide a pretty effective 1st defense for several homes in close proximity. Of course it would need to be maintained/serviced/tested periodically like any other small engine. Each home could have its own length of high volume/high pressure hose with Banjo quick disconnects for quick easy hook up to the supply hose coming from the pump.

Does anyone have knowledge of anything like this being done in the past?

Your thoughts are welcome.

Oh please. No more rules and regulations!!!!

Thanks 8545 for the informative post on the house fire. And a special thanks to all the firemen involved in containing the fire to one structure- great job!
As an islander, 8545’s explanation of the fire response underscores the need for common sense. No one should be burning anything, fire pits included, when there is a red flag warning. The Alton FD struggled to contain a mainland fire. Without a fire boat, an island fire could be catastrophic. At the least the selectmen have approved the purchase of a new boat.

This looks interesting.

On Ebay ...... for $165.70 plus ten dollars-shipping .... an unbranded 4-stroke commercial gasoline powered engine and water transfer pump 7 1/2 hp, weighs 53 lbs, 264 gal/minute, self-priming, pull start, ships from California

Hose not included.

Could be having a fire pump and doing hose drills could make people more aware of the problem so a fire is less likely to happen. As they say, best fire prevention is the one that never gets started.

You know that a pump similar to this except made by Makita will cost about two thousand dollars. English translation for 'Makita' ..... make it so unbelievably expensive and there's always some sucker who will buy it!

I have a fire pump and hose setup at my island house. Hose is about 150', and reaches both my and my neighbor's houses. Considering it would take the fire boat at least 20 minutes to get to the island, it might just make the difference. There was a gentleman on Cow Island that sold the setups several years ago, but he has passed away.

IMO todays Fire Dept's have got to be the most underrated dept of any municipality, Paid or Volunteer. These men and women are risking their health and lives at any hour of the day. SALUTE to all of those great individuals.
Pull out your wallets and checkbooks and support your local FD

fireguy
 

To Winnesquam, You seem to have answered some of your own questions. Yes, proper staffing is one of the keys. Have you ever worked a fire wearing 60lbs. of gear, and air pack while you are soaked with sweat, and your gear is soaked with water? that 60lbs. is now more like a 100lbs. You don't last long before you are spent. That's where staffing comes in you need reserves to back up the initial attack line ASAP, not have to wait 10-15 min. for the next closest dept. to show up with possibly 1 working firefighter! The NFPA suggests engine staffing of minimally 4 ffs. Laconia, and possibly Gilford have that. As far as throwing $$ at the FD, you answered your own question, manpower and equipment. My attitude comes from people making comments either based on a 1/10th of a second photo of a fire ground, or comments on a subject that they know nothing about. The fire service is based on improvising, adapting, overcoming any situation. Now let me ask you a question. Do you or your neighbors provide clearly marked house #s, easy access to your properties, and easy access to the lake for an engine to draft? If not, then that is part of the problem. I'm sure your local chief would be more than happy to hear your concerns. Again, as I previously stated, to understand, you need to walk the walk. Dippaspan's idea could possibly work, but there is a lot of logistics that would go into that. You would need a pump that can produce 150 psi at minimum. Then firehose, nozzles, etc. There is something in hose called friction loss, which means the smaller the diameter hose, the more pressure is lost in the line. If you have 2,3,4 hundred feet of hose out, sometimes even going uphill, the volume, and pressure out of your nozzle will be minimal. The bottom line is there is no one clear cut solution to island, and lake front property fires. Ask your local dept. what can be done as an island community, or a land based lake front community to improve access and/or firefighting capability. Over and outK

Water Supply Question
 

Honest question here as I'm trying to educate myself on the engineering of the Fire Trucks.

So non-island waterfront fires, can the truck pull from the lake for supply?

I realize they can pull from lakes, ponds and even swimming pools if need be to "fill" the tanks but are the trucks designed to pull and also pressurize to address a fire in real time? (Like a fire boat does?)

Meredith has a fire tanker, Winnipesaukee lake water fill pipe located close to Cattle Landing town dock at intersection of Cattle Landing Rd and Patricia Drive.

Without a heat source is a big mystery as to what keeps it from freezing ...... probably, it freezes? ..... because the law of physics apply even on Lake Winnipesaukee.

You know, on second thought, this water tanker fill pipe is probably designed and installed so it does not freeze up because the large diameter pipe enters the lake from underneath the lake bottom, an interesting design. After all, what good is a water supply pipe that is frozen from use for 3-4 months of the year?

fireguy
 

Yes, todays engines are designed to draft water out of a lake, pond, etc. Drafting hose is generally 10-12ft. per length. Most engines carry 2-3 lengths. The length in the lake will have a strainer attached to prevent fish, vegetation from getting into the pump. Also the strainer should not be laying on the bottom because sand can get in and really mess up your pump. Engines typically range in size from 1000-2000 gpm. These ratings are done at draft, and at 150- 250 psi. The more pressure, the less gpms. Engines are typically tested every year to see if they can still do their rated capacity. Drafts can be established up to 24 ft in elevation, but way less gpms. You will also see candy cane looking things around lakes, ponds. etc. They are called dry hydrants, and are piped directly into the lake. That way an engine can pull up, hook up and establish a draft relatively quickly. Over and OutK

Yes they can. Fire pumpers are tested when delivered new, and regularly afterward, to be sure they meet the rated capacity of the pump. The test to draft from a lake or water source requires that it be at least 4 feet deep, clear water, and the lift should be 10 feet from the water surface to the center of the intake on the pump.

That would represent a real test. Obviously, testing from a hydrant defeats the purpose because the water coming into the truck is already pressurized.

In a major fire situation a pumper at a hydrant feeding a pumper or ladder pipe at the fire needs to watch the intake pressure because you can exceed the capacity of the hydrant and water main to supply the volume you are using. That is one of the reasons the driver always says with the truck.

Here is a a trick: When using a hydrant and the intakes at the pump panel on the truck if you are close to exceeding the capacity of the water supply it helps if the operator keeps his leg against the hose line. That way if you are distracted and don't notice on the gauges that you are going into a vacuum situation you will feel the line go soft. OK..........TMI.

At most waterfront houses there is not sufficient clearance to get to the lake. You also have to worry about septic systems, overhead wires Etc before you start driving through some yard you are not familiar with. It would have to be a pretty large yard because you couldn't be too close to the building that was on fire.

@Little Bear - would love to hear more about your setup. You inspired me to do a little research and found this site with a good write-up on how they built their own first line of defense. https://learn.eartheasy.com/articles...ection-system/

So, with "all that water, right there in front," what might access to it look like when the engine can't drive close to it? I imagine there are creative minds here and among those with fire fighting expertise to come up with something that might be quite useful for lakefront communities.

When a call comes in, the location of the fire would identify the location as waterfront. A pickup truck could be dispatched to carry a load of big drafting hose lengths to complement the few sections with a pump engine. If the engine, at closest approach, is too high above lake level, then some pumping power down closer would be needed. What might that look like? Sure, there would be some tradeoff between pumping capacity and mobility. There also would be a tradeoff between setup time vs time for others to make repeated trips to some hydrant location to refill tanks. If adequate pumping capacity weighs too much to be hand-carried or wheeled down to lakefront, what about a specially configured ATV with PTO connected to a pump? In many cases, that could be offloaded from a pickup, driven down to lakefront, and used to pump water up to suction at an engine. Such a vehicle could be of great use in winter when fireboats can't operate.

Modified ATVs with attached pump and hose that could be operated by a single individual.


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fireguy
 

Many depts. already ATVs with small pumps used for outside fires. The question is what goes first the pickup with a trailer, or your main engine? The ATV pumps are typically 125+-gpm, so that is not going to help much at a house fire. 20 -30 yrs ago, a fire doubled in size every min. Now with the use of synthetics, that number is down to every 20sec. If you only have 2 people working, 1 takes the main engine, and one takes the ATV, then what? Your next engine may be 10-15 min away. Not trying to beat a dead horse, but it comes down to staffing, bottom line. My best suggestion is to contact your local chief with your concerns, and suggestions. I'm confident their answers will be similar to mine. Give me staffing, and show me the money for what you want me to purchase. Also contact your selectmen, express your concerns, and suggestions to them as well. Maybe they will " throw some money" at your ideas. Over and outK

Adding any more response people is probably not going to happen. There are just not extra people to drive the pickup with the ATV, set up the pump, run the lines to the fire pumper.

Looking for "creative" ideas is great but people in the fire science field have looked at this for years and what exists today is about as good as it can get without throwing a lot more money at it. It should also be mentioned that the majority of house fires occur at night. The ideas that people have would need to be carried out at night, on a strange property that the firefighters have no knowledge of.

The primary concern is the protection of life and that is job one when fire apparatus arrives at a call. If everyone gets out safely then the fire damage is really not that significant in the total scope of things. People have insurance, make repairs or rebuild, and go on with their lives.

On an individual level, if money were not an issue, I suppose you could get together with a few of your of neighbors and put in a dry hydrant between a couple of houses.