One way or the other
 

After setting up the last "compromise" Poll, it was suggested that if I make it one way or the other then we may see a different result. So with that said, If you had to choose which way it had to be. Current law 45 / 25 or no speed limit law..... What would you prefer?

Given some users' interpretation of the previous results (81% in favor of a speed limit?), I appreciate this poll.

Yes that is exactly why I wanted to start this one.... Clear this up once and for all.

I would make the poll...no speed limit law/some form of a speed limit. More representative.

Ummmmmmmm.. There is one...

Please look at the other poll "Speed Compromise Poll"

I started this one because it was suggested that by having a different options as in the compromise poll the supporters / opponents would not have clear represenation. Vote here as if there was no other option, then vote there as to what you would like to personally see.

Ohhh but OCD "this poll is in the BOATING forum." Therefore all results are completely false and biased. :rolleye1:

Actually I wonder if Don would agree to let this poll hang out in the GENERAL DISCUSSION thread for all to vote upon? Could we also title it the Speed Limit Law Poll?

I know that even then the results will be challenged because some folks here would refuse to believe that this entire site www.winnipesaukee.com is overrun with Performance Boaters. I wish Don had a way to refute this claim. Perhaps every member should have to register whether or not they had a boat or not or whether or not that boat was a "Performance Boat" or not.

I guess it is extremely difficult to see the numbers come back time and time again and have to accept that fact that the SL supporters are in the minority. I wonder if one of the local newspapers could hire an independent research firm to do a poll? Would that once and for all prove the point? I know that I would love to see the Citizen publish a poll and subsequent article discussing the results. Any reporters read this forum????

another poll
 

to prove the polling sample, you could do another survey, so it make this whole thing like a multi question poll. The other poll should be " I voted in the 'one way or another' poll and I drive a _____. and the possible answer could be something like a "go fast boat" " a sail boat" a kayak" " I dont have a boat" etc..

No matter how / where / or what wording we use there will always be discussion as to the validity of any poll. If it went the other way then I am sure the discussion would not take place.

This is as clean cut as you can get it. Anyone on the entire forum: that is WINNEPESAUKEE.COM can vote here. Given it is a boating thread it is still published on the open forums. If someone who doesn't own a boat and feels passionate about their feelings I am sure they know where to go to discuss.

Even though it is in the boating catagory, it does not mean it isn't visited by Non-boaters. I have friends and family of friends who have called me to let me know that they have been reading these threads and they don't even own a boat.

Again, I think when the poll doesn't go in the way one wants it, then claiming it isn't valid is an unfortunate response.

Again it gets too conveluded. I started the compromise poll and that was taken out of context for being too comprehensive. So now I made a very simple poll that ANYONE can vote in. That way whatever boat you have go fast, sail, kayak or none at all, your vote counts just as much as anyone elses.

But feel free to start one up if you like.

I'm thinking this whole thing is more about Liberal Vs. Conservative than Kayaks Vs. GFBL. :look: NB

Which is the liberal point of view and which is conservative? The tactics of the pro SL crowd seemed to be out of the conservative playbook, using fear and Limbaughian style hyperbole, yet the nanny law was passed by a liberal controlled government.

Well USUALLY the conservative viewpoint would be one of personal responsibility and less government intrusion in our every day lives. The liberal viewpoint would be the way the state has been trending lately where they legislate to protect us from ourselves. ;)

I'm just sayin' is all. ha ha ha :laugh:

Smart liberals are absolutely against it. :D

Most of us have a combination of Liberal / moderate / conservative / libertarian views. While many of us tend to stay near one region of the spectrum or another, it is a bit simplistic to try to stereotype everyone. While I may dislike big government as well as speed regulation, someone else may dislike big government and want a speed limit. That's what makes this so hard. (and so much fun)

At Least Gov't CAN Be Recalled...
 

1) In this case, "the intrusion" isn't Government: It's those 4½-tons of velocity multiplied by mass that can't be called back. :(

2) In this case, "personal responsibility" lies with the kayakers, skiers, tubers, swimmers, inflatables, canoes and rowboats—who, in their everyday lives, would be required to "make themselves visible" or get out of the way. :rolleye1:

Yup. Bring back those grand old days of cigar smoking on commercial travel and in restaurants. Not to mention the good old days when we didn't have to "buckle up" and were able to spew that heady mixture of hydrocarbons and tetraethyl lead from our exhaust pipes.

(And those dizzying days before BWI).

Now them's wuz sum good ole days! :rolleye2:

Oh, APS, you can be so difficult. You KNOW that legislation does not stop every single problem. Life is life.

Maybe a second poll listing the speed our boat is capable of. I have a pontoon and a sport(runabout)boat. My faster boat is capable of about 50mph, but I only know cuz a tried it once with a gps. My cruise speed is about 27 mph, and at night I would be breaking the law at that speed. To slow it down, I would need to trim it down(forcing the bow into the water)and reduce my effeciency.

I voted no speed limit, as I don't see faster boats being the safety issue. I see captains who are either ignorant or just don't care breaking the safe passage rule being the problem on a regular basis(like every weekend and multiple times).

OK APS enjoy your plastic bubble that the government will be providing for you so that you don't accidentally bruise yourself or fall down. Oh my heavens. :laugh:

Darwinism is not being given enough chance to thin the pack my friend. We're saving too many idiots. :D

Dimensionally challenged
 

I know that accuracy in hyperbole is not your forte but shouldn't that have been "4½-tons of mass multiplied by velocity" ?



And so what's to be made of the incident on Sunapee where a boat of less than 4½-tons mass travelling at a speed (see, that wasn't so hard was it ?) of less that 45 MPH mowed down a kayak (and nearly the kayaker) ? Will you now campaign that 45 MPH is too high for those "danged Sunapee boaters" ? Should water skiing be banned because there's a chance that a boater might, maybe not pay enough attention to what lies in front of him vs that which is towed behind him ? Are ski and wakeboard boats to be the objects of derision now ? Hmmmm, I wonder what emotionally overladen invectives can be dreamed up ? Oh well I'm sure you're up to the task ! :rolleye1:



They were sum good ole days weren't thay !! Except for the BWI, which in a lot of cases should stand for Boating While Inattentive.

wow.. looking at the numbers, that is pretty overwhelming, in my opinion.. After some of the discussion in the compromise poll I would have thought this would have been closer... Pretty clear cut.

I am quite shocked by the results of this Poll.

I have heard from the SL Supporters the numbers were overwhelming that speed limits were wanted on Winni

For example:

Quarterly Survey – June 2005

The following results are based on 600 completed telephone interviews among a statewide random sample of adults in New Hampshire. Of the 600 interviews, 534 interviews were among registered voters (162 Republicans, 138 Democrats, and 234 undeclared voters). The interviews were conducted June 27 through 29, 2005.


Question wording and responses:

Do you favor or oppose a law that would impose speed limits for boats on large lakes in New Hampshire?

Boat Speed Limits
Favor 64%
Oppose 22%
Undecided 14%


-----------------------------

Could be because they polled people who do not own or operate boats on Winni and really do not understand the conditions on Winni.

A poll taken of actual captains and their passengers at Marinas and Public Docks would be much more accurate, similar to this poll I believe.

-----------

Onlywinni,

So what you are saying here is that; you only want the opinion of people who have personal knowledge of boating and or the lake. You, in essence want people to give an educated evaluation on the merits of a speed limit but you want to here only from people who have an understanding of lake and seamanship.

That does not seem to be the way things happen. Every person in the country is allowed to vote no matter how ignorant they are. People can vote for somebody or something for any reason incuding: left, right, donkey, elephant, hair color or just because they like the sound of someones voice. It doesn’t seem like a vote based on a trivial thing like looks should equal a vote based on logic and policy…but it does. People who never pay taxes are allowed an equal voice to a taxpayer’s on how their money…no my money…no the government’s money is spent.

So basically what you are saying is: People who don’t have a vested interest on certain topics should not have a say.

Ok I am alright with that. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

A closing thought.

I bet if you did a telephone poll and asked the question: Should there be a speed limit for airplanes over New Hampshire? You might end up with similar numbers to the lake speed limit poll.

Other useful telephone poll questions to ask the general public:

Should motorcycles be required to have airbags?
Should boats have headlights?
Should planes have horns?
Should there be a speed limit for bicycles?
Should submarines have directionals?

I know people outside of boating that are bewildered that there isn't a speed limit on lakes. So if you ask them the question

"Given that many people are afraid to get near the water for fear of being run over by a four-ton boat going 140 miles per hour, and that there are Children in the water, would you support our quest to make the lake safe for Families???? "

or

"Given that hundreds of people drown every year during the early spring when the water is Deathly COLD, don't you agree that there should be a law prohibiting boating until the water reaches a SAFE 62.768 degrees? We've had a 400% increase in fatalities this year alone on the big lake, and we need this law NOW!"


By the way, why Don't submarines have directional signals?

Not so shocking
 

Why so shocked ? The poll in this thread is a different question than the poll in your 2005 survey. That poll is more similar to the "compromise" poll. What I take from it is few like the present limits but most would like some limits. Buy alas "we" substitute someone's opinion as to what's good instead of using reason to determine any limits (and if they'd do any practical good). Naturally opinions will vary and so you end up with the kind of results we've seen to date in both the informal Winni polls and the more formal ones that we're paid for.

As to whom should be polled ... that's a good question. There's no requirement that voters be informed about the politicians they elect or on the referendums that come up so it's kinda hard to ask for it on lake speed limits (though it would be a good idea). These days it seems as if people feel their opinion should be heard even when they can't articulate how they formed it or why it has any validity.

There hasn't been comments on here from the supporters because this is devistating to their case. The way this poll was listed is TOTALLY unbiased.

I don't know how the calls were made for the "state wide survey" or the exact questions phrasing, however I did watch the arguements on the House floor and with some of the rehtoric there you have to ask: How was that poll conducted?

If they said: as an example:

Would you support speed limits on lake winnipesaukee, which have proven to save hundreds of lives and remove dangerous speeders that keep many people away from the lakes region, hurting the economy?

The question obviously is biased and how could anyone say anything but: "yes I support speed limits" Again this is just and example...

Especially when they may or may not have any experience what so ever with boating on the lake.. All they have to compare it to (quoting from the Winnfabs website) a Walmart parking lot!!! Seriously.. How many Walmart parking lots can you fit into Paugus Bay alone? Let alone the Broads.

That is the difficulty with survey's conducted from one side or the other. Depending on how they are worded makes all the difference.

This particular survey was not asked in a biased way and proves that boaters of the lake, who actually have experience and understand the issues on the lake, overwhelmingly do not want the speed limit as it is currently in force.

Again by looking at the other "compromise" poll it appears that people are in favor of some type of compromise, but as stated over there by a supporter "if there were to be a one way or the other poll the results would be much different"

Apparently that wasn't the case....

How so? All this does is prove the obvious; that this forum is dominated by the GFBL crowd. All it does is put the imbalance in these threads into prespective. If you asked the same question on Offshoreonly.com, or Speedwake.com. or NHRBA.com, you'd see the exact same numbers (duh), but would that prove that a speed limit is not favored by the majority of NHers? Or that it is not working just great? OR that it should not be made permanent? Of course not. All it says is that wild horses do not want to be corralled. It doesn't take a poll to know that. Most people in NH have better things to do than weigh in on some GFBL self-poll.

Here's a real poll;
http://searchseacoast.com/news/02172006/news/88265.htm
"Poll: Most residents favor limits on boating speeds
The American Research Group telephone poll of 1,200 residents was commissioned by the New Hampshire Lakes Association. It was conducted Feb. 6 through Feb. 9 with an error margin of plus or minus 3 percentage points...When asked if the limits would make the waterways safer, 84 percent said yes, 9 percent no while 7 percent were undecided...Asked if the speed limits would make boating more enjoyable, 74 percent said yes, 5 percent no, and 21 percent were undecided...Eighty-one percent said they believe the limits will help the Marine Patrol enforce boating laws, while 11 percent said the limit would not help with enforcement and 8 percent were undecided. "

That most people on this forum know the difference between right and wrong.

Oh my!!! EL is back!!! did you get your 1200 hours on the lake this year? :laugh:

Exactly...and as noted earlier, 100% of the residents on our road associaion(approx. 25 people) are in favor of SL/and donation to WinnFabs. Our state reps/senate are not dumb enough to swallow a poll conducted on this forum!

Obviously the state representatives were dumb enough to swallow the Winnfabbs propoganda.They really do not have a clue. Just like the random survey that was done. Why don't we survey someone who really knows, like the entire Marine Patrol? What do you think they would say? By the way, I hope it wasn't someone in your road association that called in a fraudulent report on a speed boat over the weekend. The MP's investigated and found it to be a hoax. They weren't too happy.

Again we woudn't be hearing this from the supporters if this poll went the other way.

First a compromise poll is set up where the majority is not happy with the current law.

It is then suggested that it would be a different story if people had to choose one way or the other.

Then this poll is set up.

The results are what they are.....

Again this is quite an exaggeration. If you look at the poll of "how fast does your boat go" less the 20% have a boat that can exceed 60.. Some of those could easily be PWC as well.

When you have overwhelming results you can't say this forum is dominated by GFBL crowd. It is what it is.. I am sure if it went the other way the comments would be very different.

Poll whom you want, talk to whomever agrees with you...it won't change the fact that swimmers, sailors, lake front residents, kayakers, and many power boaters will be quite reluctant to give up the gains achieved over the last year. The speed limit has made Winnipesaukee a better, more tranquil lake to visit. The anti SL spin machine's propaganda about how the lake's region economy would go down the toilet never happened. Speed limits are here to stay and the real owners of the lake won't ever again let it be hijacked by a very loud minority of powerboaters.

Or angry lakefront property owners for that matter. The 25 at night is already showing its effect on our shores. :(

Good one. And so we again see why supporters shy away from these threads. If you post something that disagrees with the GFBL agenda, you are a troll or you are ridiculed over some unrelated issue.
No, I don't think 1200 hours is likely even though I'll be on the lake right up till ice-over, in one boat or another. Perhaps that makes you jealous. I also have a '60 T-bird in showroom condition in my garage. Want to poke fun at that? Is that relevant? I typically log near to or just over 1000 boating hours on Winni each year, from the first day I put my jon boat in, which is usually well before ice-out, until well into December. I love the lake and spend as much time on it as I can...especially the past two years when the high speed threat and annoyance has been all but eliminated. And I can say with certainly that my boating has never once intimidated or offended anyone else. Can you say the same? Whether fishing, sailing, or cruising to town, my boating does not impact anyone else's, or make any other boaters wish they had stayed home. I can truly say that I share the lake with all. Can you?

By the way, just how loud must one's boat be to gain membership into this "Thunder Cult"? Do you get to wear "Thunder Cult" helmets? Do you have "Thunder Cult" capes like Evil Kneivel? Sounds pretty silly to me, but then, to each his own.

And what ever happened to that "documentary" that you guys filmed a couple of weeks back? Is it still in editing?

Sure. My '58 Satelite with a 426 wedge eats Chebbies and Phords for breakfast. Better not let it out of the garage! :emb:

Are the "real owners "of the lake your neighborhood of 25? I didn't realize what a pompous group of individuals you are. And for the record, the speed boats have not gone away, still frequent the lake and still exceed the speed limits on a regular basis. So feel safer if that makes you feel better, but nothing has changed. Everything has remained the same for the "real owners" of the lake.

You are absolutely right elchase and Sunset. Most people in this state and most people on Winnipesaukee.com don’t care a lick about speed limits on the lake. This poll PROVES that fact. Of the 4000+ members of winnipesaukee.com only 164 voted in this poll, that is 3.8%. That is a very low number considering this forum has members who are passionate about the lake. I believe these polls due give an accurate view of how people feel about the subject.

The catalyst to the speed limit bills passage was the incident involving Erica Blizzard. If that did not happen and the public interest in this legislation would not have been there. It was a devastating blow to speed limit oposition. It was purely a knee-jerk reaction to a tragedyand exploited by the Winnfabs. If there was even one instance of a GFBL traveling at a high speed causing serious injury or death than an valid argument could be made about limits being imposed.

If you really listen to the objections from some of the very vocal speed limit supporters it is easy to identify what their objectives are. They want to take “their” lake back. They want to limit the speed, size and noise generated by boats on the lake. I believe taking out the GFBL is step number one. The next step may be cruisers, then boats with 300+ and so on. Divide up and pick off the minorities one by one. The truth is they want to limit access to the lake. They supported the closing of Ames Farm and would also back anything that would keep the weekend warriors off their lake.

I am not saying all the people who support the speed limit have a hidden agenda. I am not about to accuse any supporters in this forum of such treachery, However they are alligning themselves with people do.

Nothing has changed? All I have to do is look out my window (and even more important, LISTEN). The SL works and that message is reaching Concord.

Yes, I am certain that Concord is excited about something they have no idea about, nor care about.