In the Spirit of Compromise....
 

I will take a cue from BI & others.... At the risk absolute futility what kind of compromise would possibly work??

My personal feelings on the Valedmort Bill is that nobody is really happy with they way it currently is. The hi-po guys like myself really cant enjoy our boats, the slow boat folks are ticked there isnt enough enforcement (no tickets yet to date) and lets face it with the budget crunch and the economy boat registrations are way down so the NHMP doesnt really have the resources.

SO what would be the best of both worlds and allow the NHMP to allocate thier resources better?

I suggest we keep the night time speed limit. Almost all of the cataclysmic accidents that are brought up during this debate occured at night. Not saying that a speed limit at night would have prevented these accidents (although not drinking alcohol would have). If people want to debate the MPH thats ok with me. I think 30 would be a reasonable compromise... I see the Weirs town docks and the Meredith town docks practically deserted after dark. I have friends who live in Moultonborough that dont come to the Weirs or Meredith at night anymore because it takes too long to get home! I guess kids can get antsy! LOL! It used to be that you had to wait to park at the Weirs Docks during the summer, nowadays parking at night is not a problem! I am sure nightime visitation is down at all the town docks. I can only assume its a combination of the 25MPH limit and the economy.

The 45MPH daytime limit should be discarded all together. Its a complete waste of the limited NHMP resources. We don't boat vs boat (or boat vs. island) accidents during the day because your visibility is measured in miles!! I would rather have the NHMP allocate resources to catch Capt Boneheads in and around the busy parts of the lake than hanging out hoping to clock the rare boat going faster than 45...

Woodsy

There aren't any speed limits for drunks. Not a bad proposal Woodsy, as usual. Safe and Prudent works for me as well. As I recall, both nighttime accidents involving fatalities involved speeds circa 30 mph, with the usual extenuating circumstances. Last years was typical of how legislation cannot prevent everything from going wrong. The infamous accident could have been prevented by friends, people on the dock, including and off duty LEO as I recall.

Accidents will always happen, sometimes it's unpreventable. In the vast majority of cases, alcohol is involved. To fast for condition is another. In my estimate, the MP could easily devote 100% of their time enforcing the 150' rule and still need more help. At night, a more focused approach could be used in the usual areas.

But you and I are approaching this from a common sense, pro-safety approach. The exchange of rational ideas has no place in the SL debates. At some point, I would expect the MP to be giving their marching orders for a crackdown on the 150' limit, specifically trying to get at the more aggressive and careless, and possibly drunk boaters. Spending time trying to harass boaters on the hook or rafting, setting them up by cutting them off, baiting them, is a waste of precious resources they say they don't have. But that's another discussion.

There's a reason people express their raw emotions and fear in the pro SL discussions. There haven't been many accidents to discuss. If last year's accident involved a 20' bowrider, discussion would have been pretty muted.

SL is already a good compromise, and is working
 

Sir,
I think 45MPH is already a perfect compromise. It's certainly very fast in a boat (by the speed limit opposer's own count it is faster than over 95% of the boats on the lake can even go), and the law only applies to one lake in the entire state. Most people who had not gone that fast are amazed at how fast it really is in a boat the first time they are given such a ride. Most skiers cannot ski over 30, let alone 45. Not a single performance boat manufactured in the past 20 years claims a planing speed over 20, so those cruising around with their trims and bows up to make huge wakes in an effort to sabotage are just wasting gas. Certainly the whole of Newfound or Sunapee each approximate the size of the Broads of Winnipesaukee, so those who want go faster have plenty of open water in the state to do it on (besides our substantial "offshore" and Great Bay). And the Newport Police chief was one of the biggest opponents to a speed limit on Sunapee, so I assume the people out there would welcome more performance boaters. 45 is more than fast enough already for any reasonable boating activity on a lake that has so much traffic and people.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the attempts to say people are not happy with the impact of the SL or those (sometimes the very same individuls) who say the SL is doing nothing at all (which is it?). Most of the boaters I meet at the marina (admittedly not Channel or Silver Sands), all of the sailors and salmon fishermen I know (and there are a lot of those) and almost all of the residents I talk to around town have noticed a huge improvement in the civility on the lake this year (with the SL) and last year (with the test), are spending more time on the lake this year, and do not want things to go back...even an inch. We keep hearing how quiet things are on the lake this year, but if you look, you will see just as many boats. When the economy and weather are better, we should see many more boats than in recent years...but I'll bet the lake will still be quieter...and seem safer.
It seems pretty obvious, except if one only gets his news from this forum and the few who dominate it, that the vast majority of the boating public feels very happy with the current law and does not care how many tickets are issued. What difference could that make to anyone who is not just out for revenge? Who told you "slow boat folks are ticked there isnt enough enforcement (no tickets yet to date)." ? People are obeying the law (for the most part) and that is all we really care about.
45 mph daytime and 25 mph nighttime on only one lake in a state with several hundred is a fine compromise, and is working out just fine for everyone except the few who would probably not be satisfied if the limit was 95.

I suggest everyone be required to take a Power Squadron class before boating on the lake (including the MPs).

MPs are trained to enforce actual violations. No entrapment and garbage like forcing 150' violations.

No tickets/fines for non-compliance with laws. Instead you get warning 1st offense, 2nd offense is loss of boating rights on lake for 7 days, 3rd offense is 1 month loss of boating privileges.

Other Safety Factors
 

El,

I don't know if people are or are not breaking the SL, all we know is no citations have been written. I think I understand your position on the SL, but what about the real safety issues? I have seen more violations than ever before. As I was driving through Center Harbor Saturday, I noted a half dozen or more violations and bonehead moves in the 5 minutes that I watched, even though the speeds looked OK.

I guess the frustration on my part is that I think that the SL was another piece of feel good legislation- I would have been satisfied had the legislature voted a much higher appropriation for enforcement of the existing rules and laws. I really don't care if a boat is going 45 or 55 when it's 30' off my port side!

Speed limit is doing its job
 

I just don't understand why everyone I meet who uses the lake more casually is saying how much this year's SL and last year's test helped bring civility back to the lake, and all those on this forum (who almost unanimously opposed the SL) are seeing all this mayhem and all these violations. I'm on the lake at least thirty hours a week this summer, and have seen maybe two incidences of bonehead behavior (not counting all the performance boats cruising around with their trims up to make big wakes on purpose) and a handful of SL violators. This compares to the incident-per-minute rate I've witnessed in past years
And my failure to understand is compounded when the same people say on one thread that the SL is having all this negative impact, then on another thread saying it is doing nothing but wasting enforcement dollars (which is it?). And the people saying it wastes those enforcement dollars say on another thread that the MP is not even bothering to enforce and is spending all their time entrapping people into passage violations (which is it?).
My observations are my observations, and I am as entitled to share them as you guys are. My opinions are my opinions, and I am as entitle to express them as you guys are. I refuse to just back and shut up when I read stuff here by a decidedly biased group that so blatantly conflicts with what I am seeing out on the lake. And trying to ram down our throats the notions that 1) things are still crazy out there despite the SL, even though the SL has chased all the boats off the lake (which is it?), 2) There are more violations this year because of the SL, even though going slower is making you all waste so much gas (which is it?), 3) the SL is ruining the shorefront, even though you are still going as fast as you want (which is it?), 4) the SL is destroying the local economy, even though you are ignoring it anyway (which is it?), and 5) all these other contradictions. Most of what I read here disagrees with what most of us who are out on the lake day after day year after year have witnessed, and might fly with your comrades and the naive, but is not going to intimidate the rest of society into buying it.
I'm sorry if my opinion and my boating interests differ from yours. But my passive boating activities never interfered with yours the way yours did with mine, and I simply do not want to see us take a giant step backwards to the mayhem of 2007 and before. The SL is indeed making us feel good, and I like feeling good. You guys should consider the impact your aggressive activities have on others before telling us why we are wrong in opposing them.

Rose Colored Glasses
 

Obviously you have your rose colored glasses on if you say you are on the lake 30 hours a week and have only seen 2 violations.

Quite frankly, I take huge issue with your intimation of how my boating effected yours. Your use of passive versus active is patently false. If you are on the lake and are moving, whether it be swimming, sailing, paddling, or powerboating, you are actively using the lake. You have decided to take on the role of arbitrar of what is good and evil regarding boating on our lake. Get off your high horse, you have not grasped the fact that virtually everyone that you argue with on this forum are not performance boaters- we are the fathers you waxed poetically about who are taking our kids tubing. Stop trying to put people in a box.

I challenge you to find one post of mine that is contradictory in the manner you describe.

If the weather co-operates, I'll hopefully be able to hitch a ride and be on the lake in less than three weeks. I'll bone up on my video skills, and at least log the fun. Obviously, weekdays are much different than weekends, which is why lakefront owners can definitely have different reactions.

I'm still amazed at the lack of boats here on a much larger lake, weekends or not. It's not because they're so spread out either, it's more like many stay in the bays. I remember well the trouble spots in my old areas. Paugus Bay, the Weirs, the area between Meredith Neck and Bear Island.

There are many sane, completely responsible people on these forums. The VAST majority do not get to 45 mph that much, some not at all. Sometimes, statements in the past made here have to be taken in context of the full discussion. A difficult task given the shear number of posts. For instance, some were arguing about erosion and GF boats in the same sentence. This, of course, made no sense. They produce much larger wakes going 20 than at 60. So we joked about erosion a bit, had some laughs, some intellectual baiting if you will.

When you make statements like this,

you really need to step back. I say that only because I'd like more people to participate in the discussion, not the antics. You have every right to say whatever you want, but I'm here to tell you right now, it ain't working far ya. You're accusing people of being aggressive that continuously talk about safety, have bowriders, pontoon boats, cuddy cabins and the like. Last I looked, we hadn't made it to the Miami Vice stage yet :laugh:

Before you go making all sorts of outlandish accusations about posts and posters, you should try and address individual posts and posters directly. I made the mistake once of lumping everyone into one category or another, and I was wrong.

So here we are, many long time posters discussing on the Captain Bonehead and Safety threads what's going on while out on the water. Your own experience, and from what you say, many others, differs. OK Perhaps people's times out on the lake are different. Do you boat mostly weekdays? Is your area just better than many others? If that's so, it would be valuable information for the MP to concentrate their limited resources on specific areas at certain times.


Good, constructive thread for the Safety thread everyone. Perhaps the MP can read up on what boaters are concerned about.

elchase,

First welcome to the forums. By all means those who disagree with you are not trying to chase you away or are calling you wrong. There is no right or wrong when dealing with opinions. As you have said your opinions are your opinions and your observations are your observations.. But what many people contend is that people are trying to call opinions fact. Thus trying to move people or change peoples arguements.

In my own opinion it is very difficult to say "people say" or "the majority of people in the lakes region think" etc. because normally people tend to befriend or associate with those with similar likes or interests. As an example if you are big into sailing then you probably have friends who are as well. If you talk to or poll those individuals the vast majority would be Pro-SL. If you have a family run about on the lake, in all likelyhood the majority of the people you associate with are in the same boat (no pun intended). Given there will be exceptions to the rule but I am sure you can see my point.

So to say that most people or the majority of people think or say XYZ is difficult to claim. As is the opinion of "most" people are happy with the limits.

As you have probably seen from previous posts I am opposed to the limits and if someone asks me I could easily say Most people oppose because from my observations almost everyone I know or associate with does not think they are needed. It is just a matter of perception.

That being said, I will say that "In MY opinion" the 45 MPH is not a perfect compromise. I have read the suggestion of opening up the broads. I think that is a perfectly fair compromise. I disagree with it, but I'd be willing to accept it. I think there are far larger problems then speed i.e. captain boneheads and people not paying attention to their surroundings then where limits do not even play a roll.

You mention that 45 is fast enough for a "reasonable boating activity". Again this is an opinion. My question is what do you consider reasonable? I think cruising to a resturant across the broads at 60 in my type of boat is perfectly reasonable.

What I find again is that many opinions are based on the individual owners determination of "fast" based on their own boat. For example if you have a 21 foot 1982 Century with a 260, when the boat is a WOT (wide open throttle) it gets up to approx. 46mph. The boat is bouncing around and is very loud in comparrison to its normal cruising speed of 30ish. With my boat cruising at 3600 rpms I will be at 50 mph. At that speed I am perfectly comfortable and well in control. Passengers can talk and have sodas while enjoying the lake. So that being said it is a "reasonable boating activity" for me. Where an individual with a boat that is 17 feet long crusing comfortably at 22 mph that gets passed by me may not realize it feels the same.

I have discussed limits for years now with individuals. In many situations those in favor of limits (even once with a MP officer) I offer to take them for a ride. In doing so we go across "cruising" and they are astounded the control and how slow you feel you are going in a performance boat at 45 or 55 mph.

It becomes upsetting to me and friends of mine, that those passing the laws and those in favor of limits have never been on or experienced a performance boat. Now you may have, but I am just making a generalization.

That being said, I invite you at anytime (once my boat is fixed) to take a ride if you have not experienced a performance boat ride. You may feel differently.

wait a second.
 

OCDACTIVE,

I 100% agree with you, so does that mean I can't get a ride?

Once she is fixed absolutely.. Nothing pleases me more then showing someone who has never been out on a GFB and then seeing the permagrin on their face.

Hey wait a minute!! You promised me first :(

Are you telling me you're not going to be at the Naswa on August 21 or 22?

:D

Might be expensive
 

I bought a new boat this spring (a family truckster, top speed 60). I was originally looking at a boat that might be considered a performance boat (Powerquest 25'). I went with the truckster due to the speed limit, it may have been a mistake. A ride in performance boat may make me trade mine in way earlier than I could have imagined.

A compromise exists if we want to look at it.
 

Once again I bring your attention to Navigation Rule 6. It is flexible and it gives MPO more authority to get dangerous boaters off the water.

It works well in the ocean and in most states, there is no reason it can't work here. Attach penalties to it, link it a drivers license etc. to give it teeth.

And I would suggest it be approved statewide, not specifically to New Hampshire's LARGEST body of water.

Sorry man... Even if I was there I blew my engine :(

getting a complete rebuild this winter and having the supercharger removed... I will be slower (mid 70's) but much more reliable... also if all goes according to plan she won't be the mighty whitey anymore...... Paint job will happen as well!!!!! :D

I find it amazing that this SL law has all of a sudden with last years test and this years implemation has made it Shagri-La out there.:laugh: Mass. has been trying to get people to buckle up for the last year or so and they are having trouble "obey" this law to buckle up.
I'm not buying it!

Reply to elchase
 

What you and I or anyone else thinks is fast in a boat is irrelevant, we’re talking overall safety here. And my family and I are on the water every weekend in a ski boat, it’s been a complete zoo the past two weekends. We encountered numerous boneheads coming within fifty feet of us, but not speeding. Not one of these boneheads were pulled over, as a matter of fact there wasn’t any MP in site. And this is my point, get rid of the useless SL and get serious about real safety. God forbid, but what if two boats collide both doing 35mph and someone is killed, what will be said then. The state needs to increase MP resources by double or triple and enforce the real laws that will make the lake safer for everyone.

Malibu

Some people following these threads take the Speed Limit aspect of the debate too literally. There are several things that motivated the support that ended up in the passing of the bill.

1. They don't like performance boats
2. They don't like the people that own them
3. They hate the noise
4. They hate what they perceive as a party hearty culture


Very similar to the nasty generalizations made towards motorcyclists, much more in the past than now. They pretty much had to veil their arguments around safety, and create the perception that there was absolute chaos, mayhem, and Wild Wild West on Lake Winnipesaukee. Then, they set out to market the perception. It's pretty hard to get a law passed if you Just Don't Like them :rolleye2:

You'll also find from older threads some things about safety and accidents that may or may not puzzle you. There have been many accidents discussed, two or three in particular. I mentioned a bowrider being driven by a woman on Lake George, also a speed limit lake. She was drunk, and drive (at night) her boat onto shore and beyond. Very similar to most accidents reported, except for the more horrific ones. They almost always involve alcohol, sometimes involve having no lights on after dark.

The main thing to note is this. If the accident does not involve a GFBL boat, chances are, not a single SL supporter will post on the thread. The only one that they did happened to involve the head of an organization that was against the SL. Some pretty nasty things were said about her. They made sure the name Formula appeared in every post about the boat. Disregard the fact that it wasn't a particularly fast boat, and was basically a luxo cruiser type. Some of the nastier posters even made things up along the way, and were particularly offended if alcohol or conditions were brought up.

But many good suggestions have been offered, you mention safety, enforcement, and more funding for the MP. Many of us have brought these up many times. Again, you can pretty much tell who cares about safety and who has other ideas by the responders who are almost always conspicuously absent. We have some "new" posters that simply will not respond to anything directly. That's OK, don't need them.

We've had some people in NE die this year already, many from drowning in cold waters while fishing. Boats US and many LE organizations have stepped up their efforts to educating boaters, particularly fishermen, kayakers, and all early season boaters, about hypothermia. Bass fishing organizations always try and stress the need for wearing their PFD's. Poker Run organizations have stepped up to the plate in recent years, educating and stressing safety. Education is a time-consuming activity, that sees results over years, not months.

The better educated people are about the risks of boating, the less likely it will be to have non-boaters passing laws that do no good.

At any rate. Everyone should thank our host Don, who puts up with us, and gives us the opportunity to state our positions. I'd also suggest that everyone that's taking up his bandwidth, give a donation to the site. It ain't free, and he's one of the best moderators I've ever dealt with.


I'd like this to go further at some point, and hopefully, a relevant organization of boaters that care will come of it.

My compromise.
 

Adopting the above rule and keeping the reasonable and prudent clause of the current law will go a long way to helping keep navigable waters in this state safe.

I strongly believe the Power Squadron test as well as the Boater's safety test will promote more common sense to all boaters.

Setting arbitrary limits such as 45/25 does nothing to promote safety. One will think he/she will have to drive 25 at night because it is the law. In fact it could be a very dangerous speed due to adverse conditions. Arbitrary speed limits gives a false sense of comfort. Even at 45, you can be driving dangerously under the conditions you are boating in. :cool:

WOW VTSTEVE.. Great post, I think you had hit all the major points. You have been saving up it seems since the SL debate had been put on hold.

Keep up the great work.!!!

I think malibu has hit on the ture issue here. As many have noted the current mayhem on the lake could be corrected with enforcement of existing laws. But everyone is dancing around that fact and spending time/energy on the speed limit debate.

As this year has shown the new speed limit law has done practically nothing to make the lake safer. Adding new or different laws that can't be enforced will accomplish nothing.

We need to spend out time and energy trying to fix the enforcement issue first. Then after we test that for a year or two we can look at the need for any new laws.

I think the enfocement issue has two major factors to start:

1) resources - more MP resources - especially on weekends - as malibu said, we should have one MP in each major bay on the weekend and a few just out patroling. This presence will make people think twice. Ever notice how everyone stops behaving badly on the highway when a cop is around. Those that don't end up on the side of the road having that discussion the LEO.

2) The current judical system (may be wrong word but anyway) is aparently broken. I have heard that if you get a ticket just contest it and no LEO will show up in court - you get off. I think this is the harder one to fix.
- maybe have a dedicated LEO for court appearances around MP violations or something. Or require the one contesting the ticket to pay a court cost regardless of the out come.

Soultions to the enforcement issue is waht we should be focused on - comming up with new laws/compromises is just putting bandaids on the symptoms of the real problem.

I know we are talking money here, which may be why the issue is avoided, but if we want the lake to be a safer place we will have to pay for it somehow.

my 2cents

Well First let me thank Woodsy for starting this thread....

Second I like the post I am seeing here....

Third....Right now I am seeing that speedster as some would call them, OCD and Woodsy, are showing that they are willing to talk about this, and that is what comprimise is all about

OCD, I only quoted part of you post here but you have put some good stuff out there.... By the way also sorry to here about the boat... that really stinks....hope you rebuild goes well.....

Now onto the snipit that I took from OCD

Openning up the boards is a start to comprimise OCD..... it is the one place, that I feel should not be ruled by a speed limit.....because it is wide open with plenty of room I have never ever been out there when I felt any danger from other boats no matter how fast they where going.... It however is not the only place that I feel should be left out of speed consideration.... in fact my thoughts have always been leave the lake with out a speed restriction except for certain locations:

1) Meredith --- already taken care off
2) the area around the weirs channel... say the imaginary line form the lighted bouy to the town docks, just like the bike week restriction
3)Wolfeboro Bay ---- make a line like was done for Meredith
4) possibly Center Harbor and Alton....

After that speed limits in my mind are worthless, just need to create a few more no-wake zones in the congested areas, via the Meredith Method or the Eagle / Governs island method.....

Now I also liked Woodsy idea..... speed limit at night.... I thought the way Woodsy came up with the 30 mph was reasonable.... however I could even see 35.....or maybe jsut modifying the 150' rule to say 500' at night or something.... I don't think speed is as much an issue at night, as people being able to judge proximity..... I have never seen anyone go what I would call exsessively fast at night..... even the night I had an issue (no accident just a close call from my stand point)..... speed was not an issue, we where both comming up on plane, the other boater just didn't judge well how far he was away from me when he turned and cut accross in front of me.....

RULE 6 - UNITED STATES COAST GUARD

RULE 6
SAFE SPEED
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:

(a) By all vessels:

The state of visibility;
The traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;
The manageability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;
At night, the presence of background light such as from shore lights or from back scatter from her own lights;
The state of wind, sea and current, and the proximity of navigational hazards;
The draft in relation to the available depth of water.
(b)Additionally, by vessels with operational radar:

The characteristics, efficiency and limitations of the radar equipment;
Any constraints imposed by the radar range scale in use;
The effect on radar detection of the sea state, weather and other sources of interference;
The possibility that small vessels, ice and other floating objects may not be detected by radar at an adequate range;
The number, location and movement of vessels detected by radar;
The more exact assessment of the visibility that may be possible when radar is used to determine the range of vessels or other objects in the vicinity.


Basically, a more detailed, yet less legalese version of the current Winni law. I think they'd do well to add more detail into the current bill. Either way, it does assist the MP with their duties.

Another aspect, enforcement. There are two other threads, one dealing with problems on the lake, and another that suggests improper enforcement. There are differing opinions on both topics. So when I get done doing some actual work :rolleye2:, I'm going to see if we actually know what's really going on out there. It's always hard to come up with solutions if you really don't know what the problems are, if any.

Try a SOHC engine or DOHC engine...
 

What speed did it blow up at?

Allow me a guess: It was the valve train, right? While "Detroit Iron" may take a supercharging, "Detroit Iron" can't take the revs. :cool:

Try painting one side red and the other side blue: If you are reported by a law-abiding resident as exceeding "mid-70s", you'd reduce the chance of being stopped by the MPs by 50%. :D

BTW: Too few "complete rebuilds" support New Hampshire Lakes Region businesses. :(

I would also advise that boaters don't spend too much on paint (or "graphics") where they might encounter other boats at the docks.

Odometer?

Riding my pwc Saturday in some chop I felt much safer personally going about 45-50 to ride on "top" of the chop instead of at a lower speed where the chop would be taking me for a ride. I also had better visibilty. I have to say I was constantly looking down at my odometer to monitor my speed which took my eyes off the water where they should have been. Technically at 46 mph I could have been given a ticket.....

el I couldn't disagree more with you. I live on the lake all summer long and I can only assume you are boating on weekdays between 5 and 8 pm. Other than that I have witnessed the absolute worst boating displays EVER this year. Please for you and your friends sake do not spread the word the the lake is somehow magically safer this year as you will be putting yourself and your friends lives at serious risk. As an islander I can tell you I boat way more than the average boater as it is my primary source of transportation. My 25 foot bowrider capable of a shade faster than 47MPH is my car. I am subjected to seeing the absolute worst of the worst and I can tell you that this lake is VERY dangerous right now. I was absolutely horrified on Saturday. Pulling out of my dock felt like getting on to I-95. Tubers in channels with kids in the water. Boats 25-35 feet away from each other. An idiot on a Jet Ski with two others on it cut across my bow less than 25 feet. First time I ever used my horn like a car horn. It worked and the kid waved. :eek: He thought I was saying hello! This lake is absolutely NOT safer. I started boating on the lake in around 1981. I've driven everything from a tin boat to the Doris E. herself. I can tell you from experience that things have gone way downhill in the past few years and I am getting scared going out on a Saturday. Let me add that not ONE Performance boat has been involved in any of these situations, not ONE! So I am sick and tired of the allegations that pin it on those guys. I am not one of them I am merely a frustrated boater. Frustrated with legislation that DID NOT address the Real problems of the lake. I am actually beyond frustrated and more pissed off than anything. I drive around the lake wondering how all these people passed a boat test????? The bill that was passed has had absolutely no affect on the safety of the lake. I am appalled at how crazy the lake is. YUP I said it "Crazy" I used the term you used. I agree wholeheartedly that the lake is crazy right now. But it is the idiots in the family boat dragging their kids in a channel. It is the bass fisherman coming a few feet up my side waving as he passes me, it is the jetskier cutting across my bow, it is the guy who has NO CLUE that I have the right of way when he is cutting across my bow from the left and I have to stop to avoid killing my family, it is the idiot in the pontoon boat who tired to pass me in a no wake zone (he was on plane). FYI most of this occurred yesterday!! :eek:
So please do us all a favor and take off the rose colored glasses because I just can't believe we are boating on the same lake??? This law addresses NOTHING it has done NOTHING! Things are worse.

I totally agree with you Hazelnut. It is the worst I have ever seen this year too. Today a jet ski was acting really crazy, making big wakes, going close to shore and boats, yelling at people, etc. He must have been drunk. I don't know if I have ever seen such a display! MP came by for a while and sat, I wondered if someone called, but he missed him. The jetskiier came back after he had left. I truly wish he had gotten him, he was absolutely out of control!

Unfortunately...
 

With all the boating irresponsibility I have personally witnessed the last couple weekends, I must agree also with Hazelnut.

Then the straw that broke the camels back came yesterday when someone rammed into my boat at the public docks in Glendale and took off without a note or anything. It wasn't massive damage but it was damage, and this happened right in front of Marine Patrol headquarters!!

The continual blatant disregard of simple boating regulations and personal moral values by a select few "boneheads" is occurring on the lake and I don't see how anyone can expect this type of boater to respect or follow any new rules or regulations... I am at a loss.

FWIW;

Dan

Although during the weekdays I have seen much lower numbers of boaters yielding a very empty and safe lake, the few weekend days with good weather have been wild. Total lack of regard of the 150' rule and a high number of operators having no idea of stand-on/give way.

I have a very hard time thinking how anyone can say the boating is safer this year other than during the week when the numbers are noiticably down. You really need to factor the reduced numbers in.

The weekends have been worse that I remember as far as safety, and the weekend numbers are still down as far as boats moving on the lake.

I do my boating out of the Weirs and see most of the Center Harbor, Weirs, Alton side of the lake. Perhaps it is location?

Sorry for this off topic post. I felt I needed to respond to the post that stated all was much safer this year thanking the Speed Limit. That clearly is not true.

How about getting back on topic - the spirit of compromise!

R2B

Wow! No wonder things look so good to the rest of us, I guess all the dangerous behavior has moved to in front of your house this summer;). With all these boats buzzing past you 25 feet away, you surely got a few hull numbers and called them in to the MP. Are they investigating;)? And the offenders were all small family boats driven by the notorious "Captain Bonehead"? Meanwhile all the performance boaters you've been seeing (even though you really have no horse in this race yourself) were prudently cruising along obeying all the existing laws, which agrees with what you have been saying, that this is all we ever really needed to make everyone feel safe on this lake, right;)? What a coincidence. How nicely this all plays into your mission of painting the speed limit as a do-nothing law and painting all the dangerous boaters as the ones with their entire families aboard and all the Go Fast Be Louders as the quiet peaceful victims. Nice try.

Story in today's Citizen (http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...995/-1/CITIZEN) talks about how official highway counts actually have tourist traffic UP this year...which agrees with my observation that the numbers of boats on the lake is UP this year, even though the slower speeds make it SEEM that boating traffic is down. Meanwhile, the MP reports that boating violations are way down this year, which agrees with my observation that boaters are behaving better this year. Seems like facts don't lie.

The best compromise is already in place. A 45MPH speed limit lets everyone share the lake without fear or intimidation. And those who like to go fast can still do so (up to 45 mph, which is very fast in a boat).

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll...4/-1/CITNEWS04
The speed limit on New Hampshire's largest lake will be 45 miles per hour during the daytime and 25 miles per hour at night. The 25-mile-per-hour speed limit will be in effect from one half-hour after sunset to one half-hour before sunrise. Boaters who exceed the speed limit will be stopped and issued a warning or citation at the discretion of the officer.
"Now boaters look at that number and thinks it's low, but it's not," said David Barrett, director of the Division of Safety Services.
"Traveling on the water at speeds beyond 35 miles per hour may feel like one is traveling on a highway going 55 miles per hour or more."

Perhaps we need to start with.....
 

the definition of compromise.

It is starting to sound like we cannot even agree on what a compromise is.

Time to get a bit more real!

R2B

That's the very same David Barrett that said earlier this year speeding was not much of a problem on Winni, and not to expect many violations of the SL. He's being very diplomatic.

So El, looks likes the traffic on the lake is not off by much, and boaters are mostly behaving themselves, thanks to the SL. Is that your story?

I guess elchase didn't get this far into the article

Interesting
 

It is interesting how one can try to bend facts to suit their argument. Sir, did you read the entire article or only the first paragraph? Here is the bit I pulled-it is a bit more germane to the topic:

"The area that has fared best this summer is Northern New Hampshire, a place with several family attractions and the National White Mountain Forest. The Lakes and Seacoast regions are more weather-dependent, and therefore businesses there may not have done so well, he said.

Amy Landers, executive director of the Lakes Region Association, said business owners have reported mixed results.

"It's always hard to tell how a season will end up, with the weather and so many other factors," Landers said.

She added that it also depends on the type of business.

For example, she said, restaurants, retail outlets and movie theaters do well on rainy days, but an outdoor recreation business, such as one specializing in boat rentals, will not.

"If there is a forecast for extended periods of rain, people may put off their trip until later in the month," she said. "Then it is just lost business because they may not come at all or they will come for a shorter amount of time."

But with recent sunny stretches, some area hotels have reported that they are fully booked, she said.

"Generally I think people are optimistic that, while it may not be a banner year, things will be all right," she said. "People are looking forward to a strong August and September."

Ms Landers certainly does not sound like she shares your assertion.

Just last week, there was an article showing the boat traffic way down on the lake, according to the MP. It showed some empty docks at the Weirs, lower MP stops statewide.

El you need to look at everything. One of the main arguments of the SL crowd is that they do not want to wait for the data, since they themselves stated that the boat traffic being way down would not bolster their case.

In case you didn't know, that's why the threads were opened again :rolleye2:

Thank you Hazelnut..
 

This Saturday I witnessed everything you stated in your post. It used to take 3 weekends to see this blatant disregard to safety. I have no idea what elchase does to stay oblivious to facts but the "family" boating fun isn't going to be unmarred for long. It is a matter of time when some of these close calls are going to turn into unfortunate events. I came through he Weirs channel on Saturday and had a small boat with two children on the bow (not a bow rider nor did it have railings) behind us. After they got out of the channel the boat got up on plain and headed towards the Governor’s island bridge with the kids still on the bow!
My wife and I were in disbelief of what we were seeing but then got circled by another family pulling a tube trying to hit the big waves.

This was also the first time I have come through Paugus Bay, out into the lake, anchor for the day, and return back to Paugus Bay without seeing a Marine Patrol boat. Did they get Saturday off?

In the spirit of compromise: I think it is about time be real about facts and experiences. I have not been bothered by performance boats and respect the knowledge it takes to tune, trim, and manage the equipment so they may be better boaters than most. How to educate the family and old timers seems to be central to the issue of pro speed limit boaters feeling "unsafe". These un-reported or un-ticketed events span over several laws or lack of common sense so it is hard to select one issue to address. The speed limit on the other hand is something you can place on a banner so we are debating that as the single issue.

The process of mandatory licensing should have done better that what we have so should we turn our attention to what failed with that process and let the speed limit pass it time test as it was designed and sunset.

First, not sure if you are boating with your eyes open or not, but I was out for 5 hours on Saturday and I saw three incidents of boaters Blatantly Ignoring no wake areas. (2 of them in the Weirs/Paugus Bay Channel-1 17 foot run about and 1 bass boat. Another 20 foot runabout in the Governors island no wake area) I also experienced several 150 violations during the day.. None of those violations were from Go Fast Boat Captains.


Second, by reading your first post in the Supporters Thread you are Obviously a Go Fast Boat hater and there is no talking any sense to you about this subject.



I just need you to explain what harm was caused this Saturday morning as I traveled across the broads all ALONE at 55mph?????????

..one more thing...If anyone is trying to intimidate anyone it is you...Just read his first post in the Supporters Thread.....Dont you dare post anything he does not like or he will have it Removed!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why dont you go for a Sail and Relax

This entire post has nothing to do with a Compromise....You should repost this in your Supporter Thread.

You are also Misinformed about Performance Boats and probably should keep your commentary to Sailing if that is what you know about. I would be happy to pick you up anytime on the Lake...I am quite a Friendly Guy..I will take you for a ride and if you can get my Baja to plane at 20mph I will give you $1000. I am lucky if she will stay on plane at 25mph.

I also have news for you...the big cabin cruisers on the lake throw a much bigger wake than my Baja does and dont even get me started on the wakes created by the Mt. Wash and the Doris E...Why dont you go attack them for a while:D

I'm very happy with the compromise that the SL offers already
 

And the rest of you should move your "compromise" posts to the opposers thread. "Let us go as fast as we can on the part of the lake that offers the best sailing and salmon-fishing, and let us resume the same aggressive mayhem on the biggest part of the lake that caused all this trouble in the first place, just so we can have our selfish fun". That's a compromise?

Seems odd that your boat struggles so. Boattest.com (no snail boating site) tested it and found differently;
http://www.boattest.com/oem/general-...nk=#TestResult
Their boat was up on plane in 3.9 seconds but took 7.1 seconds to reach 30 mph, suggesting a planing speed well below 25 mph. And the video explains;
"This 26 outlaw runs well at slow speeds too, staying up on plane and under control down to 25 miles per hour, without a lot of fuss over trim tabs or drives to distract the skipper from crowded waterways". Of course, you may have suped up yours to gain top-end speed at the expense of planing speed, but that could simply be solved by the installation of some trim tabs...a very cheap investment compared to the high cost of that boat, eh?

Like many of your comrades on this forum, you are an admitted scofflaw trying to instigate the very arguments you then try to blame on others. Now you want to call those who object to your illegal behavior the "trolls" and silence our side of the issue? Come on.

I've been in my share of performance boats. Very exciting, and I can see how the addiction develops, but I did not feel such high speed belonged on a heavily-trafficed lake. This might be the result of a high speed car accident I was in as a teen that left me keen on the dangers. Of course, when the boats are out there running at high speeds the other boats seem to head for shore and the crowds seem to diminish, but that is not compromising or sharing...it is bullying.

Saturday and Sunday on the Broads—My Perception...
 

1) While I'm boating, the Mt. Washington passes me once or twice a day: Unless you're really close, its wake is very nearly undetectable. (The Mt. is a really bad example for wakes).

Someone along Rattlesnake Island can check out just how bad it is at the shoreline, where it "shallows up" and increases its effect. I think most RS residents never detect that the Mount has passed by. :confused:

2) As member Woodsy will advise you, Bajas and other overpowered boats can create a very intrusive wake just when changing speeds.

That's been my perception as well (there's that word again ;) ).

Saturday morning (really, all of Saturday) didn't seem bad at all, but there were sailboats on the Broads—and MP-11 racing off to the NNE—between 9:30 and 11:30. So, just how "alone" did you perceive yourself to be? :confused:

Sunday was so bad—wake-wise—I called it quits early, and asked myself "Why can't everybody else be in church"? :emb:

(Unlike Saturday, my perception was my wet clothes and getting beat-up by wakes). :(

Because we went down that road for years? :rolleye1: