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-   -   Seaplane Base and runway 19 Mile Bay Proposed (https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26975)

CowTimes 05-25-2021 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler (Post 356036)
Does anyone accurately know when the Town of Tuftonboro will be holding a Public Hearing on this application?

Also, will the hearing be held "virtually" or "in person" ?

Please post if you are able to provide any Town information regarding this.

It has not been set yet. The selectmen have said they will provide ample public notice before a hearing is held. Also, it is not exactly clear, at least to me, what the hearing will be on, such as whether the wharf can be used for any seaplanes, the commercial tour business, or both. I would expect the selectmen will provide more clarity as to what is even being considered before there is a public hearing.

LIforrelaxin 05-25-2021 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures (Post 356006)
All, I appreciate everyone's support and encouragement with this issue. I have attempted to come here on this forum in good faith.

What I have found is that there are a few people on here who are regular agitators, who enjoy being keyboard warriors.

All one need to do is take a few minutes to search their previous postings to see that they have no interest in doing anything other than attempting to bully others who have other view points. Go back and search threads like "mask wearing in grocery stores" and you will find the very same aggressive behavior that these same agitators are displaying here. What you will find is that (one particular person even had the nerve to call people names who disagree with them. Names typical to the narratives, like xenophobic. Oh the irony, because now they hate on this thread and are completely xenophobic! Their thread had even been locked by the mediator because it got so ugly.) Debating with these individuals is a complete waste of time.

In stead of debate and honesty they just spread hate, division, and only seek to cancel people who disagree with them.

These people are not concerned citizens, they are activists.

Our world does not benefit from these people. These people hate others who disagree with them.

I hope to meet all of you reasonable people some day, but there are people (not everyone) on here who are the very same type of people you would see blocking a highway or organizing a march somewhere. It's always the same very few.

I no longer have the time or energy to respond to these folks. Again, go back and search their previous posts. You will see that their intolerance for others is deafening.

I have a family, a job, and a wonderful life. I thank God for that every day.

Thank you for letting me use this forum to counter the "outrage", and expose who these people really are.

See you all at the (if we have one) public meeting. What you will discover is that we are reasonable, logical, and very considerate individuals who want this town to succeed!

Have a good day everyone.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Interesting.... I asked some questions in good faith, in this thread and other. But see yet no response. I have read the statement from the State of NH that is the first step in getting FAA approval. And I of course have read your statements here... I repeat to understand what is going on here, There are questions that need answers.....

What are the intentions from a business stand point of Epic Sea Plane Adventures?
Why as part of the survey of the Area, was Fuel depot as a possibility mentioned?
Whey was the idea of a alternate docking solution, tied to the existing fuel dock mentioned?
What type of planes does Epic Seaplane Adventures have access to, that they want to get involved in search and more importantly rescue?
Why when I reserch into Epic Seaplane Adventures do I come across another entity called Self Defense of New England, with the same mailing and Principal office Addresses? This entity was even registered with the state at the approximate the same time.

Something seems off here.... All the information I have requested should be easy for a legitimate business to out line.... And to think that the last bit of information, I was able to find with in a couple of minutes using google.

I am probably one of the people you think is a bad apple, and I am fine with that... I have a long history of working for the betterment of boaters rights within the state of NH.... I know seaplane base and airfield owners, in Vermont, and Maine and New Hampshire,..... If I wasn't so addicted to boating and camping, I would probably take up flying.... But like having a Motor Cycle it is a hobby I don't mind living with out. If you think I am hiding behind a screen, feel free to contact me through a private message, I would like nothing better than to meet, and listen to understand what you are hoping to accomplish. What I don't understand, is when people speak without being ready to back up and detail their intentions.

knowit 05-26-2021 03:02 PM

Epic Seaplane Adventures has gone silent.
Maybe he is out on one of his epic adventures!

DEJ 05-26-2021 03:21 PM

Just as well as everyone has stated their opinions and nothing more to be gained by arguing here.

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LIforrelaxin 05-27-2021 12:21 PM

So I have had a chance to talk with Epic Seaplane Adventures(ESA) and with his permission, am going to detail a little bit about what I have found out.

- What is being requested from the FAA, is nothing unusual and likely not even what any of us may have originally thought. It will allow the 19 mile bay landing area to be official recognized and be given a GPS way point, for air navigation. Unfortunately the terminology used "sea plane base" makes it appear more ominous then it really is. Realize that anyone of us could actually do this, if we had a seaplane and had waterfront property.

- ESA's intention, from the usage of the pier is actually pretty simple, if it is easier for him to get in and out, he can use it if needed to pick someone up or drop someone off or even just take a short ride from his place with guests to get some ice-cream. He has no intentions to have his plane there on a regular basis.

- ESA's business is not a full time operation by any stretch of the imagination, he works elsewhere and yes if asked he is willing to give people a tour in his plane....

In my determination after a discussion with ESA, he is really just looking for some consideration, that will enhanced the usability of the wharf.

That said lets move on, ESA didn't file the paper work for the Approval. The owner of Pier 19 did. From their end there is motivation from a business aspect, hence the discussion in the work done to date about creating a gas dock situation, with ethanol free gas. If there are concerns of the commercialization aspects of what is going on they need to be directed there....

Bottom line, cut ESA some slack.... Seaplane have a place on this lake, and deserve the ability to use public assets just like barges, and boaters...

CUINS 05-27-2021 01:26 PM

This is not directed at ESA but my IMHO commercial enterprise should have to pay for the use of public facilities. There are now more and more businesses on the lake that are dependent on public docks and ramps which in turn denies or delays public access.

CowTimes 05-27-2021 01:45 PM

I read LIforrelaxin’s post, and have to ask why ESA didn’t provide such details directly when asked repeatedly how often he would be using the dock. The details as conveyed by LIforrelaxin seem to contradict to what ESA said in post 94:

My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour.


This would suggest that, although the business is not yet operating, there is the contemplation that it could ultimately be a 9 tour per day operation. This seems like a classic slippery slope situation—permit commercial use of the dock here and there to run tours, and if it takes off, it will be hard for anyone to then stop it.

That ESA won’t go “on record” directly as to what his intentions are, or the maximum amount of time he would be using the dock, raises a lot of red flags for me.

LIforrelaxin 05-27-2021 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CUINS (Post 356127)
This is not directed at ESA but my IMHO commercial enterprise should have to pay for the use of public facilities. There are now more and more businesses on the lake that are dependent on public docks and ramps which in turn denies or delays public access.

So this is an interesting comment. I have never seen a business causing a situation at a public access point, where I would say they caused an unnecessary delay in public access. The point of public access points, is not only to allow John Q. Citizen access but to also allow business access as well. What I have a seen in a few area's where business entities utilize public access points, to a point that it could be considered causing unnecessary delays, is that those business work with the State and or Towns to improve the access points, so that they can utilize it for their business needs, as well as allow John Q. Citizen the access they desire.. Best example of this State Access on LI, by Harrilla Landing... All improvements there, have been done by the construction company that uses that as their primary loading point on the northern side of the Lake. It was part of the deal struck between the company and the State. I also know there was a water Taxi business that utilized the Weirs dock, and payed the town a fee to do so. Last in the discussions regarding the famous "Dive Bar" they are willing to pay for improvements to the Weirs dock as well........ Just because things are made obvious don't think that business are just allowed to do what ever they want they aren't.....

DEJ 05-27-2021 02:37 PM

The fact that the wing pretty much goes across the entire wharf blocking quick emergengy vehicle access to the fireboat and fish and game boat is in my opinion the reason planes should not be able to use the wharf. Imagine if there was more than one plane tied up to the wharf and ambulance and fire personnel needed the wharf how could those planes be moved quickly? The answer is they could not.
The store owner and epic should be looking into expanding the store owners dock for this business, perhaps they are. No matter where/if this business is run from I am sure the residents of 19 mile bay are not going to tolerate 9 or so flights a day. Epic can if he chooses can run this business immediately from his private dock on mirror lake. I wonder why he is not doing so?

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LIforrelaxin 05-27-2021 03:48 PM

As I have taken the time to introduce myself and have fruitful conversation with ESA, I can now see why he got frustrated. I deal with these types of situations all the time so honestly the bickering on this forum doesn't phase me in the least....

lets talk about a couple of concerns, I am seeing raised.

1st, wing span over the wharf. Do you realize that a sea plane can be re-positioned very easily so that the wings are no longer over the wharf? And of the many pilots I have known of the years, I can't think of one of them that is ignorant enough not to do so if an emergency situation evolved. DEJ, I know you don't think so but is is pretty easy to move a small plane on floats around if you know what you doing.... A neighbor of mine use to do it all the time.. at his property... I myself have moved small planes around on land, once you know where what you can and can't grab a hold of... they move quiet easily.... We aren't talking about 747s here folks....

2nd, I think that everyone (including myself until I talked more with ESA), envision planes potentially be left for long duration. That isn't the case... what is the harm of an attended plane sitting there, that could fairly easily be maneuvered so that the wings didn't interfere with emergency activities. Honestly the situation isn't any worse then when the come to take the fire boat out for an emergency.... they have to get it ready, and people have to get out of the way....

3rd, do folks understand what it takes to secure a plane and leave it for a long duration unattended? its not so simple, and the way things are now, even with the posts shortened, that isn't even a consideration at the wharf.... And as long as the town doesn't allow improvements beyond cutting down the posts there never will be.

Once again cut ESA some slack.... If your concerned about growing business opertunities, the store owner is the one that has a vision that could change things, and add docking that would facilitate SEA Plane fueling at there already existing dock......

I suggest before getting all negative on this whole Idea people go spend some time at a small airfield. Get a feeling for how busy they aren't... Flying is an expensive game.... 19 mile bay will never turn into Manchester airport.... yep on any given weekend maybe a handful of planes would show up.... But not all at once.... and never for very long....... possibility of damage at the existing dock is to great.

DEJ 05-27-2021 04:04 PM

I am not negative at all regarding this, I just simply oppose the use of the wharf for this business for the reasons I stated. You do not agree, fine. Take care.

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P-3 Guy 05-27-2021 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin (Post 356136)
And as long as the town doesn't allow improvements beyond cutting down the posts there never will be.

How is cutting down the wharf posts an improvement for anyone but Mr. Wood? For many boat operators who want to tie up at the wharf, lower posts could end up being a detriment.

Since you seem to have taken on the role of Mr. Wood's mouthpiece, perhaps you can answer some questions specifically about the wharf posts and how Mr. Wood proposes to secure his seaplane to the wharf, questions that I have asked multiple times here and that Mr. Wood has ignored even as he declared the thread "definitely dead":

“For tail clearance. It's not just for me. That's what I'm trying to convey.”
If it's not just for you, who else wants to have the wharf posts shortened?

How far will the tail project over the wharf when the aircraft is alongside?

When the aircraft is secured to the wharf, what will the aircraft's orientation be?

It sounds like the aft ends of the floats will be facing the wharf, is this correct?

"As low as possible down to deck height... leaving enough for boaters to tie to." What is the maximum post height that would be acceptable to you?

Do you want to shorten all posts, or only certain posts?

The Real BigGuy 05-27-2021 07:31 PM

If all ESA wanted was to periodically stop by to pick people or drop by for an ice cream they didn’t have to get state approval for a seaplane base. As he himself has said a seaplane can land anywhere on the lake, it does not need a state & FAA approved base. As far as a GPS waypoint for navigation, it also doesn’t have to be a fully an official base for one. All they need is a gps unit with a readout to find out what the waypoint is and then you put it on the Seaplane pilots association message board and it is available to everyone who wants to use it.

I agree with CowTimes ESA could have simply answered the questions or posted the same information that Liforrelaxin did. It appears to me that his story has been constantly changing as he sees push back from the public.


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FlyingScot 05-27-2021 07:57 PM

One other thing that ESA is implicitly requesting is dock space even when he is not docked. If boats tie up while ESA is in the air, he will not be able to let his passengers off. This is very different than the barges. Essentially like The Dive, he needs to rent for the entire summer.

Force5 05-27-2021 08:42 PM

new video
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy (Post 354935)
Video of selectmen’s meeting :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys


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I think the selectman think this is not a business. I think they are doing a great job but are being mislead. This is a video of the 4/26/21 meeting. They need to be aware that they are planning a sea plan tour business. Have they seen the original facebook posting (see below) of the sea plane tour business? She immediately takes it down and reposts. They are planning a tour business and events to be held there. WATCH this video and the one submitted above by the Real Big Guy. OMG I cant believe this is happening. IF it were not for the tall posts on the town dock they would be using and abusing it right now. They had to tell the town because they wanted to cut down the posts for safety reasons. And the very insane thing is the photo taken for facebook shows how the wing goes over 2/3 of the dock/pier. Thank goodness the town has an ordinance of one hour to park there. I guess you could leave and then come back multiple times and end up using the dock for 5 hours if five trips. And if you ice fish you may not be able to put your bob house where you want to (undetermined ). If you are in favor of this PLEASE watch the videos and YOU determine if this seems sneaky and deceptive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIdXBJi0mK4

Today, Pier 19 Country Store posted on Facebook a photo of the seaplane with a caption under it saying: There’s been a rumor going around that our store is trying to set up a seaplane tour business, it is true! Then within 30 mins later she takes down the post and now says: How exciting it is to be able to have a seaplane drop in for a day. We welcome seaplanes here! I took a screen shot of the original posting

TheTimeTraveler 05-27-2021 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEJ (Post 356131)
The fact that the wing pretty much goes across the entire wharf blocking quick emergengy vehicle access to the fireboat and fish and game boat is in my opinion the reason planes should not be able to use the wharf. Imagine if there was more than one plane tied up to the wharf and ambulance and fire personnel needed the wharf how could those planes be moved quickly? The answer is they could not.
The store owner and epic should be looking into expanding the store owners dock for this business, perhaps they are. No matter where/if this business is run from I am sure the residents of 19 mile bay are not going to tolerate 9 or so flights a day. Epic can if he chooses can run this business immediately from his private dock on mirror lake. I wonder why he is not doing so?

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At the end of your post: ....."Epic can if he chooses can run this business immediately from his private dock on Mirror Lake. I wonder why he is not doing so"?

My guess is that existing zoning "may" prohibit him from operating off of his Mirror Lake Dock. I believe ALL of Mirror Lake is zoned as Residential. Pier 19 is zoned as Business.

Don't take my word for it as it is just a guess on my part, but it does make a lot of sense.

CowTimes 05-27-2021 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler (Post 356147)
Pier 19 is zoned as Business.

Hate to be technical, but this is another process issue that has been ignored so far by the proponents. Pier 19 is in a residential zone and had to request a variance from the Board of Adjustment and Planning Board approval before they could reopen the store with the new owners. As anyone that followed that process knows, this didn’t provide a blank check for all types of commercial operations there. An airport/seaplane tour operation/seaplane base was not included in the variance/Planning Board approvals.

LIforrelaxin 05-27-2021 10:32 PM

As I read some of these posts I ahve to wonder how familar some of your are with unison wharf...... There is a large part of the north side of the dock, that isn't usable for boats except those with almost no draft, like a pontoon boat, or ha ha a float plane.

As for the posts, as a member of the boating public, of over 40 years, and in more area's of the country that I care to count.... The argument here over the dock post height is absolutely ridiculous. Do you realize this isn't even a conversation on most lakes, rivers and the ocean where dock structures don't even include posts ? OMG what do they tie their boats to.....

As I have seen with most debates on this forum, many of you show your novice boating knowledge, and lack of experience of boating anywhere but Winnipesaukee. For some reason people have decided posts are mandatory for safe dockage of a boat..... They aren't... The whole design of union wharf is ridiculous. And honestly it should be taken out and replaced.... But after seeing the debate here, I can't imagine the noise that would be caused by totaling taking out the wharf and installing something that was more practical.

Folks the world is changing, you can fight the change, and end up miserable because you in the end don't end up with what you deem as the perfect environment, or you can embrace change, and move on with light.

As for the assertion from someone that I am ESA mouth piece, nothing could be farther from the truth. But what I am is someone that listens to all sides of the story.... Much like the speed limit debate, the debate here is become emotional, people are loosing sight of the facts.... A sea plane might not be your couple of tea, neither may a performance boat...... but you know what they have every much a right of to the lake as everyone else.....

I always thought the moto for New Hampshire was "Live Free or Die".... The older I get, the more I realize the moto is "Live Free our way, or get the hell out"......

The reason for the FAA approval and designation does nothing more that get a waypoint set for the location, so that it shows up on Maps, and can be used when filing a flight plan.

Cutting down the posts does nothing to effect the use model of the wharf. In fact I am willing to bet some of the barge businesses etc. will enjoy it as well.....

With all the noise over this, honestly it is know wonder, that business at that site continues to struggle.... any thought to expanding current services is met with hostility, and an unwillingness to discuss and compromise.

P-3 Guy 05-27-2021 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin (Post 356149)
As for the assertion from someone that I am ESA mouth piece, nothing could be farther from the truth... any thought to expanding current services is met with hostility, and an unwillingness to discuss and compromise.

I am the person that made the mouthpiece reference, because Mr. Wood declared the thread "definitely dead," went away (or at least stopped posting), and then you took up his cause as if he was feeding you his lines.

Discussing something requires two parties. Mr. Wood chose not to answer several questions that I asked him multiple times, after he invited people to ask him questions about his proposed business. I would call that a barrier to a productive discussion.

Mr. Wood did send me a private message and we had at least the beginning of a discussion (although he still didn't answer most of the questions I had asked), until he realized that I was not a Tuftonboro resident or taxpayer, at which point he dismissed me as an "agitator." I guess in Mr. Wood's mind if you aren't a Tuftonboro resident or taxpayer, your opinion about what might happen on the lake or at a Tuftonboro public facility that you use is not relevant; you are just an "agitator" with some kind of vindictive agenda who is in his way. Real classy.

thinkxingu 05-28-2021 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin (Post 356149)
As I read some of these posts I ahve to wonder how familar some of your are with unison wharf...... There is a large part of the north side of the dock, that isn't usable for boats except those with almost no draft, like a pontoon boat, or ha ha a float plane.

As for the posts, as a member of the boating public, of over 40 years, and in more area's of the country that I care to count.... The argument here over the dock post height is absolutely ridiculous. Do you realize this isn't even a conversation on most lakes where dock structures don't even include posts ? OMG what do they tie their boats to.....

As I have seen with most debates on this forum, many of you show your novice boating knowledge, and lack of experience of boating anywhere but Winnipesaukee. For some reason people have decided posts are mandatory for safe dockage of a boat..... They aren't... The whole design of union wharf is ridiculous. And honestly it should be taken out and replaced.... But after seeing the debate here, I can't imagine the noise that would be caused by totaling taking out the wharf and installing something that was more practical.

Folks the world is changing, you can fight the change, and end up miserable because you in the end don't end up with what you deem as the perfect environment, or you can embrace change, and move on with light.

As for the assertion from someone that I am ESA mouth piece, nothing could be farther from the truth. But what I am is someone that listens to all sides of the story.... Much like the speed limit debate, the debate here is become emotional, people are loosing sight of the facts.... A sea plane might not be your couple of tea, neither may a performance boat...... but you know what they have every much a right of to the lake as everyone else.....

I always thought the moto for New Hampshire was "Live Free or Die".... The older I get, the more I realize the moto is "Live Free our way, or get the hell out"......

The reason for the FAA approval and designation does nothing more that get a waypoint set for the location, so that it shows up on Maps, and can be used when filing a flight plan.

Cutting down the posts does nothing to effect the use model of the wharf. In fact I am willing to bet some of the barge businesses etc. will enjoy it as well.....

With all the noise over this, honestly it is know wonder, that business at that site continues to struggle.... any thought to expanding current services is met with hostility, and an unwillingness to discuss and compromise.

I appreciate your pro-local-business stance, I do, but the Go-Fast-Boat analogy is a false equivalency and one that sums up the issue many people have expressed: this is a PUBLIC dock that should not in any way be reserved or limited by COMMERCIAL use.

Assuming the noise isn't really that bad, which there seems to be some question about, I love the idea of having a base there...just NOT on the public's space. Do the work and set up some new docks, work with the store and association, etc. to make it happen, but it's not ok to use public spaces for long periods of time to make money.

A note: there are logical inconsistencies in both Epic's original claims and your repeated ones. For example, it's impossible to know when to book a pick-up at a dock without being sure there will be space to dock. Likewise, without knowing there will be space to return. Both of these require either holding/reserving said space for long periods or taking the chance that the space will just happen to be available each time. We know the latter can't possibly be used for a business making reservations throughout the day.

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FlyingScot 05-28-2021 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin (Post 356149)
As I read some of these posts I ahve to wonder how familar some of your are with unison wharf...... There is a large part of the north side of the dock, that isn't usable for boats except those with almost no draft, like a pontoon boat, or ha ha a float plane.

As for the posts, as a member of the boating public, of over 40 years, and in more area's of the country that I care to count.... The argument here over the dock post height is absolutely ridiculous. Do you realize this isn't even a conversation on most lakes where dock structures don't even include posts ? OMG what do they tie their boats to.....

As I have seen with most debates on this forum, many of you show your novice boating knowledge, and lack of experience of boating anywhere but Winnipesaukee. For some reason people have decided posts are mandatory for safe dockage of a boat..... They aren't... The whole design of union wharf is ridiculous. And honestly it should be taken out and replaced.... But after seeing the debate here, I can't imagine the noise that would be caused by totaling taking out the wharf and installing something that was more practical.

Folks the world is changing, you can fight the change, and end up miserable because you in the end don't end up with what you deem as the perfect environment, or you can embrace change, and move on with light.

As for the assertion from someone that I am ESA mouth piece, nothing could be farther from the truth. But what I am is someone that listens to all sides of the story.... Much like the speed limit debate, the debate here is become emotional, people are loosing sight of the facts.... A sea plane might not be your couple of tea, neither may a performance boat...... but you know what they have every much a right of to the lake as everyone else.....

I always thought the moto for New Hampshire was "Live Free or Die".... The older I get, the more I realize the moto is "Live Free our way, or get the hell out"......

The reason for the FAA approval and designation does nothing more that get a waypoint set for the location, so that it shows up on Maps, and can be used when filing a flight plan.

Cutting down the posts does nothing to effect the use model of the wharf. In fact I am willing to bet some of the barge businesses etc. will enjoy it as well.....

With all the noise over this, honestly it is know wonder, that business at that site continues to struggle.... any thought to expanding current services is met with hostility, and an unwillingness to discuss and compromise.

I was unsure at first, but now I definitely think you're ESA's mouthpiece. Far too much passion and length in your posts for us to think you're neutral.

On the specifics--Sure, the optimal height of the posts is debatable and probably not a big deal. The big deals are the noise/intrusion every 30 minutes and the public's ownership of the dock for all. The posts are just one of several tools the town has available if we come to believe this is not in the town's best interest

The Real BigGuy 05-28-2021 01:33 PM

Two things:

1) for LIforrelaxin: in fact the town is waiting to hear on a grant to rebuild Union Wharf. If you watch the Selectmen’s meeting video you will hear it discussed.

2) for those interested: I received an e-mail from a friend who is part of a group of Tuftonboro residents against the proposed seaplane base. It said that there is a Selectmen’s meeting on 6/7 to determine if the question of allowing the use of Union Wharf should move to a public hearing. I personally have not verified this.


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LIforrelaxin 05-28-2021 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingScot (Post 356165)
I was unsure at first, but now I definitely think you're ESA's mouthpiece. Far too much passion and length in your posts for us to think you're neutral.

On the specifics--Sure, the optimal height of the posts is debatable and probably not a big deal. The big deals are the noise/intrusion every 30 minutes and the public's ownership of the dock for all. The posts are just one of several tools the town has available if we come to believe this is not in the town's best interest

You don't know me very well, anytime I choose to voice my opinion and do so at length and with passion. Let me speak about my passion in this case, my passion here is not all about ESA, or Seaplanes.... it is about acknowledging the fact that there can be use models outside of the Norm.

Businesses use union wharf all the time. So that isn't a logistical argument here, you can't say that someone can put a dumpster in the middle of the wharf (which I see done yearly if not more often) and call it ok, but then tell someone they can't bring a sea plane into the dock, because the wings extend out over the dock. So if the public access is deemed not suitable for business then it needs to apply to all business period end of story.....Equal treatment is what this is called, and yes I am very passionate about that.

Now In my eyes, as a public access point, I think that any business should require a permit to use the dock, and pay a fee based on hourly usage to do so.... This includes a private citizen that needs a dumpster placed on the wharf to clean out their island property. In this case the Dumpster company is the business, which would require the property owner to gain the permit and pay the fees....Or a construction company that needs to tie up their barge for a few hours, and load materials....And it extends to a commercial entity simply leaving a boat at the wharf for a longer period of time, then would be considered the norm for a recreation user (i.e. overnight, or over a weekend). This allows the town to control the usage of the pier for other then purely recreation purposes. If this is already going on, then why is everyone up in arms at this point. To operate a business from the wharf ESA would have to get the necessary permits. So my guess is this isn't the current situation.

Now if the FAA grants the runway identification, private pilots will see it as a navigation point, and may chose to stop in and check things out. Once on the water they are a boat, and like any boat have the right to tie up at the wharf safely... having lower posts facilitates that.... Once again I am pretty passionate about equal treatment......

Now if down the road ESA wants to run a sight seeing business, he is going to have to get permits from the town, etc.... To my knowledge that hasn't been done, and that is when the argument in this thread becomes relevant. If down the road the store wants to put in facilities to enable selling gas to sea planes, there will be permits from the Town, DES, and likely the FAA... once again that is the time for the arguments I see in this thread.....

Don't think I am 100% in agreement with ESA, I am not... what I do agree with him on is equal treatment.... the arguments here are not separating out the categories that need to be separated out..... The FAA runway designation is harmless not really worth worrying about, it simply adds a way point marking the location... a location where a sea plane operator could land anyway... I am sorry but private sea-plane operators, should have the same rights and accommodations as private boat owners.

Business aspects and concerns are a different debate, if the town doesn't have regulations in place that would prevent a business from utilizing the wharf with out prior notification then that is a town issue, and mistake.

Seaplane Pilot 05-28-2021 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin (Post 356173)
You don't know me very well, anytime I choose to voice my opinion and do so at length and with passion. Let me speak about my passion in this case, my passion here is not all about ESA, or Seaplanes.... it is about acknowledging the fact that there can be use models outside of the Norm.

Businesses use union wharf all the time. So that isn't a logistical argument here, you can't say that someone can put a dumpster in the middle of the wharf (which I see done yearly if not more often) and call it ok, but then tell someone they can't bring a sea plane into the dock, because the wings extend out over the dock. So if the public access is deemed not suitable for business then it needs to apply to all business period end of story.....Equal treatment is what this is called, and yes I am very passionate about that.

Now In my eyes, as a public access point, I think that any business should require a permit to use the dock, and pay a fee based on hourly usage to do so.... This includes a private citizen that needs a dumpster placed on the wharf to clean out their island property. In this case the Dumpster company is the business, which would require the property owner to gain the permit and pay the fees....Or a construction company that needs to tie up their barge for a few hours, and load materials....And it extends to a commercial entity simply leaving a boat at the wharf for a longer period of time, then would be considered the norm for a recreation user (i.e. overnight, or over a weekend). This allows the town to control the usage of the pier for other then purely recreation purposes. If this is already going on, then why is everyone up in arms at this point. To operate a business from the wharf ESA would have to get the necessary permits. So my guess is this isn't the current situation.

Now if the FAA grants the runway identification, private pilots will see it as a navigation point, and may chose to stop in and check things out. Once on the water they are a boat, and like any boat have the right to tie up at the wharf safely... having lower posts facilitates that.... Once again I am pretty passionate about equal treatment......

Now if down the road ESA wants to run a sight seeing business, he is going to have to get permits from the town, etc.... To my knowledge that hasn't been done, and that is when the argument in this thread becomes relevant. If down the road the store wants to put in facilities to enable selling gas to sea planes, there will be permits from the Town, DES, and likely the FAA... once again that is the time for the arguments I see in this thread.....

Don't think I am 100% in agreement with ESA, I am not... what I do agree with him on is equal treatment.... the arguments here are not separating out the categories that need to be separated out..... The FAA runway designation is harmless not really worth worrying about, it simply adds a way point marking the location... a location where a sea plane operator could land anyway... I am sorry but private sea-plane operators, should have the same rights and accommodations as private boat owners.

Business aspects and concerns are a different debate, if the town doesn't have regulations in place that would prevent a business from utilizing the wharf with out prior notification then that is a town issue, and mistake.

The few on here that are accusing you of being a “mouthpiece for ESA” appear to me to be “self-appointed Town of Tuftonboro Officials” with nothing better to do. I wouldn’t give these people the time of day if it were me setting up this operation.

FlyingScot 05-28-2021 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin (Post 356173)


Don't think I am 100% in agreement with ESA, I am not... what I do agree with him on is equal treatment....

ESA does have "equal treatment"--he can use the town's existing structures in accordance with the town's existing rules. He is asking for preferential treatment--changing existing structures, changing the length of time one can use those structures.

All for a business that is very likely to annoy his neighbors in order to entertain folks from out of town. Still hard to understand why you're so passionate about this particular topic

DEJ 05-28-2021 04:20 PM

LIforrelaxin, the next time you and epic talk or PM ask him why he does not run his sight seeing business from his private dock on Mirror Lake where he has a State approved water runway? Several have asked that question in this thread and so far he has refused to answer this and many other questions. Thanks.

DEJ 05-28-2021 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot (Post 356175)
The few on here that are accusing you of being a “mouthpiece for ESA” appear to me to be “self-appointed Town of Tuftonboro Officials” with nothing better to do. I wouldn’t give these people the time of day if it were me setting up this operation.

No we are residents of the Town of Tuftonboro unlike the "mouthpiece" and we care and are concerned how our town property is or might be used in the future. It is that simple.

LIforrelaxin 05-28-2021 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEJ (Post 356179)
No we are residents of the Town of Tuftonboro unlike the "mouthpiece" and we care and are concerned how our town property is or might be used in the future. It is that simple.

How do you know I am not a property owner in the town of Tuftonboro? Just because I chose not to advertise, where I have additional properties, don't assume to know where I do and don't have a vested interest....

As far as caring and concerning, I care about the entirety of the lakes region, and in the past have spent countless hours communicating with State officials regarding issues that I have strong opinions about. I back my communications up with facts and knowledge...

Its amazing that I have been able to create friendships with people on this forum over the years even when we don't see eye to eye on polarizing issues. But yet I do because I am willing to listen and accept not everyone views the world the same way I do.

As you continue to post I realize more and more, you are part of a select few people, that over the years have soured this forum, which was once filled with great conversations and peaceful debates. Instead of realizing that you and I don't see eye to eye, you seem to like to continue to take pot shots and guess at what you really know nothing about.

DEJ 05-29-2021 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin (Post 356187)
How do you know I am not a property owner in the town of Tuftonboro? Just because I chose not to advertise, where I have additional properties, don't assume to know where I do and don't have a vested interest....

As far as caring and concerning, I care about the entirety of the lakes region, and in the past have spent countless hours communicating with State officials regarding issues that I have strong opinions about. I back my communications up with facts and knowledge...

Its amazing that I have been able to create friendships with people on this forum over the years even when we don't see eye to eye on polarizing issues. But yet I do because I am willing to listen and accept not everyone views the world the same way I do.

As you continue to post I realize more and more, you are part of a select few people, that over the years have soured this forum, which was once filled with great conversations and peaceful debates. Instead of realizing that you and I don't see eye to eye, you seem to like to continue to take pot shots and guess at what you really know nothing about.

Property owner and resident are completely different things. I am a resident and can vote on items that affect the town, a property owner cannot. Sucks but that is the way it is. Thanks for the "pot shot" at my character. Makes you no different than what you claim I do. Take care.

thinkxingu 05-29-2021 05:08 AM

Now, now fellas, let's keep it civil.

ESA and I chatted in the background a bit, and he shared much of the same with me as he did LI—specifically that this venture is part time and that it would be infrequent enough to be comparable to barge use, etc.

It appears either there's been a problem with messaging (I referenced his post about the proposal to the fire department with all-day hours, which he said was just an off-the-cuff example) or there's been a change in plans or someone is/people are being disingenuous.

Whatever it is, there's a process to solve these issues and going down the path of criticism and condemnation rather than legitimate discussion is both useless and circular.

Seaplanes, small businesses, and fun activities are awesome, and it's important to keep all those things in balance if we want a healthy Lakes Region.

Happy Saturday, friends—let's hope there's a weather miracle this weekend!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

knowit 05-29-2021 06:08 AM

If anyone has the screenshot of the Facebook post that the Pier 19 Store posted about starting a Seaplane Tour business rumor was true before they deleted it, I would like a copy of it to send to the Town Selectmen.
Thanks

The Real BigGuy 05-29-2021 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin (Post 356173)
You don't know me very well, anytime I choose to voice my opinion and do so at length and with passion. Let me speak about my passion in this case, my passion here is not all about ESA, or Seaplanes.... it is about acknowledging the fact that there can be use models outside of the Norm.

Businesses use union wharf all the time. So that isn't a logistical argument here, you can't say that someone can put a dumpster in the middle of the wharf (which I see done yearly if not more often) and call it ok, but then tell someone they can't bring a sea plane into the dock, because the wings extend out over the dock. So if the public access is deemed not suitable for business then it needs to apply to all business period end of story.....Equal treatment is what this is called, and yes I am very passionate about that.

Now In my eyes, as a public access point, I think that any business should require a permit to use the dock, and pay a fee based on hourly usage to do so.... This includes a private citizen that needs a dumpster placed on the wharf to clean out their island property. In this case the Dumpster company is the business, which would require the property owner to gain the permit and pay the fees....Or a construction company that needs to tie up their barge for a few hours, and load materials....And it extends to a commercial entity simply leaving a boat at the wharf for a longer period of time, then would be considered the norm for a recreation user (i.e. overnight, or over a weekend). This allows the town to control the usage of the pier for other then purely recreation purposes. If this is already going on, then why is everyone up in arms at this point. To operate a business from the wharf ESA would have to get the necessary permits. So my guess is this isn't the current situation.

Now if the FAA grants the runway identification, private pilots will see it as a navigation point, and may chose to stop in and check things out. Once on the water they are a boat, and like any boat have the right to tie up at the wharf safely... having lower posts facilitates that.... Once again I am pretty passionate about equal treatment......

Now if down the road ESA wants to run a sight seeing business, he is going to have to get permits from the town, etc.... To my knowledge that hasn't been done, and that is when the argument in this thread becomes relevant. If down the road the store wants to put in facilities to enable selling gas to sea planes, there will be permits from the Town, DES, and likely the FAA... once again that is the time for the arguments I see in this thread.....

Don't think I am 100% in agreement with ESA, I am not... what I do agree with him on is equal treatment.... the arguments here are not separating out the categories that need to be separated out..... The FAA runway designation is harmless not really worth worrying about, it simply adds a way point marking the location... a location where a sea plane operator could land anyway... I am sorry but private sea-plane operators, should have the same rights and accommodations as private boat owners.

Business aspects and concerns are a different debate, if the town doesn't have regulations in place that would prevent a business from utilizing the wharf with out prior notification then that is a town issue, and mistake.

Just an FYI. The dumpsters you see placed on the wharf yearly are placed there by the town of Tuftonboro (owner of the Wharf) and at the towns request to support island residents with the disposal of large trash. Apples & oranges to ESA’s proposed use.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

FlyingScot 05-29-2021 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkxingu (Post 356200)
Now, now fellas, let's keep it civil.

ESA and I chatted in the background a bit, and he shared much of the same with me as he did LI—specifically that this venture is part time and that it would be infrequent enough to be comparable to barge use, etc.

It appears either there's been a problem with messaging (I referenced his post about the proposal to the fire department with all-day hours, which he said was just an off-the-cuff example) or there's been a change in plans or someone is/people are being disingenuous.

Whatever it is, there's a process to solve these issues and going down the path of criticism and condemnation rather than legitimate discussion is both useless and circular.

Seaplanes, small businesses, and fun activities are awesome, and it's important to keep all those things in balance if we want a healthy Lakes Region.

Happy Saturday, friends—let's hope there's a weather miracle this weekend!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I agree on civility, and appreciate your always friendly approach.

But I think if you review all of ESA/Pier 19's various communications, you will question their credibility, and will have no doubt that their desire is a steady stream of flights every weekend. That's asking an awful lot of those who live there. (I am not in this group--I boat there once every week or two) Wouldn't you be pretty upset if these flights were taking off and landing at your camp every half hour?

Also, on civility/credibility--ESA posted something along the lines of the world would be a better place without his detractors. That's an extraordinarily nasty thing to write. I can't remember anything nastier on this forum.

thinkxingu 05-29-2021 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingScot (Post 356214)
I agree on civility, and appreciate your always friendly approach.

But I think if you review all of ESA/Pier 19's various communications, you will question their credibility, and will have no doubt that their desire is a steady stream of flights every weekend. That's asking an awful lot of those who live there. (I am not in this group--I boat there once every week or two) Wouldn't you be pretty upset if these flights were taking off and landing at your camp every half hour?

Also, on civility/credibility--ESA posted something along the lines of the world would be a better place without his detractors. That's an extraordinarily nasty thing to write. I can't remember anything nastier on this forum.

I addressed the appearance of mixed messages. What is really in flux will be determined during whatever hearing/process there is to be—it's not going to happen here.

And, even though I'm clearly not in favor of allowing commercial entities (long-term) use of public facilities (see also: comments on The Dive), I'm going to hope a solution is found that serves all as best as possible. That's what official processes are supposed to do, and do respectfully.

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Sundancer320 05-29-2021 09:33 AM

Keep in mind that the operating costs of a seaplane are not small. At only 3 passengers per flight, occasional flights a few times a week are not profitable. So what exactly is the business plan? In order to make it worth the fuel, insurance, time..etc.. then I would guess it would have to be more than occasional weekend flights..

LIforrelaxin 05-29-2021 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEJ (Post 356199)
Property owner and resident are completely different things. I am a resident and can vote on items that affect the town, a property owner cannot. Sucks but that is the way it is. Thanks for the "pot shot" at my character. Makes you no different than what you claim I do. Take care.

You're right as a just a property owner I can't vote, but it does mean I have the right to speak to the town board, and with public official if I should so chose. Sometimes the public officials brush you off because they know you can't vote, but as a land owner, you have access to all the towns facilities, personal, and amenities.....

As it happens I am not even a resident of the State of NH, yet I have spent more time lobbying for various things in NH, then most residents. I take the time and have discussed at length many issues, with State Senators, and Congressman a like. I have also done this at the town level, because ultimately I have tax dollars that I invest into the state every year, and while it doesn't give me the right to vote (which I agree with)... it does give me the right to have my say and speak... And I find that most people and officials respect that. Why Because of how I approach the issues, because I look at all sides to the situation, and can take complex issue like we have here and seperate out all the aspects..... There are two issues here:

1. Designation for the 19 Mile Bay runway and Seaplane base, This is an FAA issues, doesn't even concern the town..

2. Issue would be the physical construction and development of said seaplane base and any commercial enterprises from it.

Issue #1 is in process and does no real harm, except add a way point, and an offical landing strip to maps and aeronautical GPS systems.... Sea Planes have the right to land on the lake already, and once on the water are considered a boat... The FAA paperwork has changed nothing, does not give ESA or the pier19 store the right to physically create a sea base, stop arguing over it.

Item #2, is what everyone is in arms over..... If Pier 19 wishes to work on the fuel dock or create a physical Sea Plane base, they will have to apply for permits from the state, DES etc. etc. etc. That is when and where you need to have this fight.... As for ESA, I would assume that the town of Tuftonboro would require him to have a business license to operate in the town, and further more an additional permit for him to utilize the Union Wharf to conduct that business. If the town doesn't have those requirements, then there is a problem with the town bi-laws, and that is where the frustration should be.

To this point, I have not seen evidence that a law has been broken, or a short cut been taken to try and avoid consequences... What I continue to see however is people afraid of change, that isn't change they agree with.....

Once again I will come back to a statement I made earlier:
I always thought the moto for New Hampshire was "Live Free or Die".... The older I get, the more I realize the moto is "Live Free our way, or get the hell out"......

Force5 05-29-2021 10:15 AM

Pier 19 facebook post stating they were planning a tour business
 
1 Attachment(s)
Pier 19 posted the one that is presently on their facebook page on 4:19 on 5/22. Later they posted this on a 4:43 and was taken down almost immediately. Unfortunately the part of title is only there. When you clicked it says "There is a rumor going around that Pier 19 is trying to set up a seaplane tour business, it is true!" It was immediately taken down.
If they deny that they are lying.

They are trying to make the selectman think this is only a few times a day and not a tour business. When you watch the video of the selectmens meeting they are dancing around the subject. That is exactly their plans. Epic plays a smooth used car salesman. It is horrifying to watch.

ITD 05-29-2021 11:41 AM

When can I get a ride?????

Epic Seaplane Adventures 05-29-2021 03:38 PM

Last post... join me on FB.
 
7 Attachment(s)
Hi everyone. I want to clear the air about a lot of misinformation going around. I choose to do it here because on other forums people like to hide behind screen names and push false narratives. Please if anyone needs anything just call me up! Maybe I can take you for a ride!
1. I have started a small part time business called Epic Seaplane Adventures. I did this mostly because of the pandemic and needed a backup plan in case my real job went away. I have given so many rides in my plane people have always suggested that I charge for them, so I started the process of getting it running. I don't plan on interrupting my "lake life" but if you want an "air tour" I'm getting a website up and going. You could make a reservation and I can come to you if you have a private dock and I've been looking around for places (such as the Tuftonboro Town Dock) to be able to pick you up from. I can also do it from my place as well. So it's not specific, we just need to have the conversation, but can do it from anywhere really.
2. The woman who owns the Pier 19 Marketplace has been great! She is very enthusiastic about attracting business to her place. She and I put a proposal to the town to make the Public Dock Posts lower to allow, not just my plane, but any seaplane to approach safely without fear of hitting our tail on the dock. Also, we proposed adding some cushioning to the dock on the North Side. Doing this will then make the dock a more useful spot, not just for planes but for boats too. Contrary to the narrative being pushed this business will not be attached to Pier 19 Market Place. Just because she is helping promote it doesn't make it true. No one is going to set up shop on the dock, period end of story.
3. As you can imagine this has created a lot of buzz, especially for people who don't understand that seaplanes are legal here and allowed to land wherever it is safe. New Hampshire is not like other states and we are proud of that! I've heard everything from you can't block the fire boat to you can't use the dock for commercial purposes. Blocking the fireboat is not an issue because pilots can move the planes (they would never be left unattended and can be spun very quickly so their wing doesn't go over the dock see the photo) and commercial barges use the docks all the time for various reasons. Even the town puts a dumpster on the pier from time to time. (see photos of the town dock being blocked for commercial purposes and for private purposes as well)
4. There is a huge misconception that there is a seaplane "base" being developed in 19 Mile Bay. "Base" is a very scary word to the lay person. I can assure you it's only a specific FAA term. This was caused because the owner of Pier 19 Market Place, did what anyone can, (it's what I did with Mirror Lake and others have done such as Winter Harbor) and applied to the state and FAA (free of charge) to have 19 Mile Bay surveyed and registered as a Seaplane Landing Area. This does nothing more than allow 19 Mile Bay to be listed on an aviation chart and databases so that pilots can file flight plans to and from for safety reasons. So this outrage over a "base" is hyperbolic.
5. I invite anyone to get ahold of me to talk about this "business", more like a tax right off, that I can now charge people for taking rides! I can assure all of you that there is zero intention of making 19 Mile Bay an international airport. Let's all stop the panic now.
6. I have had some very disturbing ugly "threats" toward me. Some have stated that they will "block me" or any other planes from landing due to the right of way laws (because landing planes must technically give way to all vessels on the water). Some have come up with ideas of forming a blockade on the water or zig zagging in front of the landing plane to stop them. I want people to know that operating in a manner that jeopardizes safety intentionally to disrupt or harm someone is illegal and it's just not nice. If you have ever been over to Mirror Lake or know anyone over there, just come over and talk to us. They can tell you how much fun it is and how we all get along and operate safely.
7. There is a group of home owners on 19 Mile Bay that is forming an opposition to the idea of seaplanes coming in and out. Let's not name call them, but there is an acronym for this called NIMBY (stands for NOT IN MY BACKYARD). These folks are rallying support by spreading false information. If you run into them or are one of them feel free to get ahold of me to discuss this issue. I'm open to all comments. Each time I run into someone and discuss this issue with them the always walk away with a completely different idea of what they originally were told was happening. These people without the proper information are already talking about boycotting the Pier 19 Store! It's amazing how emotion and misinformation gets people upset. In this day and age of the internet people just look for reasons to be upset!
8. I grew up here and love this town. I'm a local guy. I can assure you that I'm not going to ruin anything or destroy what we all love. When I operate I do it with respect and love for this area and will continue to do so everyday. We need to be respectful of everyone. We all need equal access and treatment. That is all we are asking for! If people can block the dock for loading and unloading their stuff to go to the island, I just ask for the same access. (see photos) If commercial barges can come to the dock and do it for hire, I just ask for the same treatment and access. (see photos) Nothing more nothing less.
9. Lastly, to people who just openly don't want airplanes here, I'm not throwing this in your face at all, but the reality is that they are perfectly legal and there is nothing you can do about it. This is not a fight you will win. You do not own the lake, it's the state's property and seaplanes, just like your boat, have a right to come here. Again, this isn't a fight, it's a fact. It's a non arguable.
10. I ask for your support. Please email the selectman (selectmen@tuftonboro.org) to show support to allow us to lower the dock posts (see conceptual picture attached) and add cushioning to the dock at NO COST TO THE TAX PAYER. We will not alter the dock to change it's use in any way. In fact, we will improve it so that even more boaters can access it. Keep in mind that even if the dock posts don't get lowered that it will not prevent seaplanes from coming here. (see the photo of it there, notice the dock posts)
I'm sure some of you will have questions. I come on here in good faith. Please ask away! Nothing ugly. I accept hard questions. I just think this is a better forum than other forums where you can hide behind screen names.
Thank you all for your time.
T.R. Wood
Epic Seaplane Adventures
603-724-9104

joey2665 05-29-2021 04:11 PM

Best of luck I wish you nothing but success in your venture. Not a true comparison but nobody complains about the seaplane in paugus bay.


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