Has any one of the SL supporters ever answered the question as to why Marine Patrol (ya know the guys on the front line) have generally not supported the measure.

I bring this up because my Brother-In-Law took the class this past summer and he told me that his instructor, a veteran of the force, said the Speed Limit Law was a joke.

So what is the spin? Why would the guys and gals who enforce it also "roll their eyes" at the law? Wouldn't you consider their opinion higher than any one of us?

Just curious? :confused:

YES! Now I remember - CLEAR case of excessive speed! :rolleye2:

Hazelnut,

I don’t know why this is so difficult to understand.

The Winnfabs and supporters are far more knowledgeable of water safety, boating, accident reconstruction and statistical analysis than the New Hampshire Marine Patrol and the Coast Guard.

It’s just like politicians knowing more about healthcare than doctors and community organizers understanding warfare better than generals.

Come on Hazelnut, quit thinking like a scofflaw cowboy and get with the program. :D

Your experience is different from mine. I have spoken with Marine Patrol officers that were in favor of a SL. Also one of the legislators that gave heavy support to the SL is a former Marine Patrol Officer.

Sometimes the answer you get is the one you are looking for.

Welcome back BI, haven't seen you around for awhile...

I have the opposite. I spoke to 9 different MP officers over the course of last year. In each situation they said they did not support it and one said it can't be enforced. (everything was off the record of course)

How about an 'on the record' quote from the Director of the Division of Safety Services.

Exactly. Same applies for a state wide poll. :rolleye2:

2 Angles
 

I see it from 2 sides:

1) MP would like it to give them another reason to pull you over- to check if you have been drinking too much, safety check, certicate check.

2) On the other hand they know it is difficult to accurately measure on water. What degree of wiggle room do you apply as an MPO? On 93 I figure I am generally OK at 73/74, will it be 50/30 on water?

Anyhow, I vow to be more civil as well. And apologize for escalating and or starting trouble especially with YS. I pushed my internet rule beyond the boundary I set for forum behavior-"only say here what you would in person"

Can someone tell me how to post a screen shot of that post on OffshoreOnly from a while back where a longtime member and avid high-speeder had an epiphany and gave over 60 links to other OSO threads about then-recent high-speed accidents and eulogized about all of the members who had been killed?
The post used to be at http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/g...awakening.html, but it and all of the linked reports were deleted soon after it was posted and the poster was soundly reprimanded by his buddies for "admitting the dangers of high-speed boating to our enemies" and "giving ammunition to the gray hairs". I have a jpg but don't know how to post it.
The message says;
"In light of the few tragic accidents in the past few days and weeks, I started thinking back to how many unfortunate incidents I've been saddened by in my 4 years on OSO. I started digging through old threads and I was amazed how many hispahs have happened in a few short years to many of our family and friends. I found more than I could have imagined...It's far too heartbreaking reading all these stories, it would be prudent of all of us to take every possible precaution, so that we don't have to read any more accident reports. Let this be a reminder of how fragile we all are, and how quickly the one thing we all love and enjoy can come back and harm us in no more than a heartbeat."
He then goes on with a huge list of links to threads about high-speed boating accidents that other OSO members had had, MOST of them involving fatalities.
Of course, the only relevance this all has to the benefits of keeping the speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee is that all those othe accidents "happened on water." ;)

I'm sure it's a really robust collection of accidents. Keeping relevance in mind, if you could just narrow it down to the accidents that happened on Winni, it will save us cowboys a LOT of time. Thanks in advance!

oh my... i see from your quote of EL we are over in OSO now...

El just razzing.... but have you tried posting there? Might not be as welcoming. LOL...

Like everywhere else, there's a variety over there as well. People with a knee-jerk reaction to anything they don't like, and those that actually have some responsibility. There's a lot of great boaters over on that site, including people from waaaaay back in the boating days. El should spend some time looming at a certain poster's posts to see who's a leader and who's not. PS: safety isn't something that comes into play at a certain boat length or horsepower.

"PS: safety isn't something that comes into play at a certain boat length or horsepower."

VTSTEVE;

I think that is one of the smartest comments I have heard regarding the S/L debate!

Dan

I was off trekking the Inca trail to Machu Picchu in Peru. I even swam in a glacial lake at 14,000 feet. Lots of fun, the Andes are awesome!

I will not agree that a SL can't be enforced. However even if true it doesn't change anything. We have lots of laws that can't be enforced. Laws are a social mediator of relations between people. A socially agreed upon standard of behavior.

There are many laws that carry no penalty, they exist to draw a line of public morality, that a responsible citizen should not cross. Most of us will obey the law even if the chances of being caught and punished are zero.

Even the experts who stated the following "Barrett said that, from the experience from the pilot program Marine Patrol implemented last summer, there is not a large number of boats that exceeded the speed limit.

"I don't think that the fact that it's now in effect is going to make any monster change," said Barrett".

So in summary you see a need for a law that is not necessary according to the experts?

Glad to see you back as well. Although we don't see eye to eye on the SL debate, I do enjoy your lucid posts on the subject.:)

Wow.. SL supporters please pay attention to BI.. his posts are very intuitive.... Although I totally disagree... His points are very well thought out.

I feel if a law can not be enforced or if it is not payed attention to it shouldn't be on the books because it is not working. It is simply another law that stretches the enforcement budget. Not another tool to keep the lake safe. The more laws the bigger the governement, the bigger the government the less freedoms for its citizens. Not what the framers had in mind. I realize this is very general but it is at the heart of my personal ideologies.

If possible would love to see / hear more about the latest adventure!!

Welcome back BI
 

Wish I had the opportunity to join you. Full of history in that area!

Some of my retirement dream is to trek the Appalachian from Georgia to Maine, The Sierra trail from Arizona to British Columbia, as well as cruise the intercoastal from Maine to Key West. But treking the Inca trail tops them all.

Glad you had a great time and that you are back safe.

Ok point made. I just thought Barrett had gone off the record so to speak as opposed to the law. The instructor, a veteran, that my bro-in law had this summer was emphatic in his disdain with regard to the law. Could be a case of it's all in who you talk to.

Welcome back.

If you go to www.icetent.com you can then click on "Machu Pichu" or "My Blog" for photos and descriptions.

I always enjoy it when other people can live life to the fullest, and just do it. Congrats BI.

Prophylaxis...
 

Those laws—if ably prosecuted—could lead to a Felony conviction in CRIMINAL Court. :eek:

The "5th law" anticipates a possible stressful and expensive conviction for a Felony.

The Speed Limits law is exercised in CIVIL Court, where there are no CRIMINAL repercussions on one's CRIMINAL record.

(There is only the usual mailed-in fine, and points on one's record—where states have "reciprocity" with New Hampshire).

A "summons" received by the offender alerts that boater to the watery misbehaviors/hazards already addressed by those time-tested Coast Guard rules.

Can anyone remember all those maritime rules?

Has anyone forgotten that there is a Speed Limit on Winnipesaukee?

Have you ever thought of trying out for "The Amazing Race?"

Survivor is my show. Amazing race is all about who gets the cab driver that speaks English. Besides you need a partner, and no way my wife is doing that.

On December 7th I will be sitting in my rocket in the Mojave desert. No flying, just publicity, but it might make the local news.

There has been a speed limit for many years on every NH lake. :)

Day and night?

They think this cabin cruiser was sitting still when it was shattered by a "speeding in the dark" 45-ft Sonic "c-boat" (can't spell out what type of boat it was) and almost cut in half, so the Coast Guard counted these SIX FATALITIES in the 0-10MPH category. Since none of the "c-boat" occupants were killed, and we don't know their exact speed anyway (they could not estimate from the wreckage and he would not admit)...there is no inclusion in any of the CG's high-speed categories of any of these deaths, and "high speed" is not even listed as a factor.
Why again can't accidents like this happen on Winnipesaukee if we end the Speed Limit? We do have both of these types of boats here and our "c-boat" drivers insist that they will return to going as fast as they can at night here again once they get rid of that darned SL;
http://www.rbbi.com/folders/acc/ftla...laud2.htm#usa1
Note that the "c-boat" owner lived to kill another day (live free or die).

Yes day and night.

Originally posted by APS
Actually, the RSA provides the following penalty for violation of the section, no mention of any fines (mailed-in or otherwise) so it will involve court time!

45/25?

Do we each have a Blackberry? LOL.......

Can't quite see the relevance here EL to Winnipesaukee and our SL:
1) The accident happened in Florida.
2) Alcohol was involved.
3) The accident occurred in November; there is minimal boating activity on Lake Winnipesaukee at that time of year.
4) The accident happened on salt water which has a higher density and more buoyancy than fresh water.
5) There are alligators in Florida and none in New Hampshire.

Sunset posted:
1) No safe passage law in Florida
2) In 1997 no boater education was required in Florida
3) The accident occured in November...12 years ago!
4) The United State Coast Guard and New Hampshire Marine Patrol list NH as the safest state in which to boat in New England and in the top 4 in the United States of America before the silly speed limits law went into effect but after mandatory education!
5) Boating safety has improved by leaps and bounds in the past dozen years mostly because of boater education!

Posted by Elchase:
The operator that was boating drunk was convicted of 6 counts DUI manslaughter and sentenced to 85 years in prison! At least according to the link that you provided.

Sunset,
I'm finally starting to understand the argument about drinking as an excuse for speeding. It's not a question of danger, its a question of blame. You see, if you are drunk, then you aren't really responsible for what you do. So if you fly around in your boat while drunk and run over another boat and kill someone, or run your boat up onto their shore front and kill one of your passengers, it's obviously dangerous, but is not really your fault. The fault then falls to the manufacturer of your GPS or the owner of the hotel next to the place where you got drunk, unless the hotel is on the list of businesses that did not support the speed limit. The logic is tough to understand at first, but if you have a few drinks in you it all starts to make sense.
We've all heard over and over again in these threads how it was really the owner of Church Landing who is at fault for Mr. Hartman's death because he leased to the restaurant who hired the bartender who served Mr. Littlefield some of his drinks, and because Church Landing is on the list of businesses that supported the speed limit. But Naswa is ok to liquor up its boating patrons all day long, and the Wolfetrap is never held to account for over serving boaters, because these businesses opposed the speed limit. Get it? Church Landing killed Mr. Hartman, but Wolfetrap did not kill Ms. Beaudoin. Confused? Just have another drink before you try to make sense of all this.

I am still puzzled by the postings of historical accidents in all the different threads posted by one forum member. It seems that the only thing that would make sense would be to eliminate all boats that have the potential for killing. I find the logic of these posting of no value unless one plans to never venture out on the water. Is it a possible attempt to goad others into mean spirited interactions and get another thread closed?

EL,
Now I'm really getting confused. Airwaves says your Florida example has no relevance in part because boater education has now made boating safer but what if a boater on Lake Winnipesaukee who may have been drinking is also a graduate of a boater safety course (think Erica Blizzard)? Does that mean that boater safety courses are irrelevant because drunks may forget what they learned in the course? And what if they borrowed the boat without permission and are the graduates of such a course and do they teach you in the course that you shouldn't take out someone's boat without permission? But are you less responsable for taking the boat if you've been drinking? How about if the bartender who served excessive amounts of alcohol is also a graduate of a boater education course? Does that make it better or worse? What if the bartender is for or against the SL? What if the bartender is from another state like Florida, then does it negate the whole argument? Please get back to me with the answers before next summer.

Here's the real relevance Sunset, be sgure to wipe the smirk off your face after reading :D

"Six die in Broward Intracoastal boat collision

Ft Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel
25 November 1997
FORT LAUDERDALE - Six people were killed and two injured late Monday when a Cigarette-style boat slammed into a smaller boat from behind on the Intracoastal Waterway just south of the Sunrise Boulevard bridge.
A 45-foot Cigarette-type named "Merrymaker" was traveling north, "apparently at a high rate of speed," about 11:25 p.m. when it struck a 31-foot cabin cruiser named "Bill it" from behind, cutting it in half and killing all six people on board. Authorities have not determined the speed of the larger boat, but the speed limit is 25 mph in that area of the waterway.
"It was a gory scene," said Fort Lauderdale Fire Battalion Chief Tom Fredricks.

The speedboat continued north, striking a dock about a block north, then came to a stop in the water.
"

The next time you have a smart remark to make, better finish reading first. Same goes to El. Real boaters have no use for such rubbish.

Smoke and Spin
 

More smoke and more spin!!

Come on folks! Now you are even making yourselves dizzy! :confused:

The point you folks are pretending to miss, by the way I seriously doubt you are missing anything, is that the laws that were in place before the SL were being broken, or would have been broken if the incidents actually happened in NH, by most of the operators responsible for the incidents you bring forward. Therefore, what is the real value in adding another law, other than to push a certain group of boaters off the lake? That is your real agenda now isn't it.

Facts are, if the boating public became more aware of the laws effective in 2008 and if MP had more resources to enforce these well thought out laws, the lake would be a better place.

I realize that as long as Fast Boats are on the lake, you and your buddies will not be satisfied. Therefore, we continue to get barraged with your smoke and mirror campaign.

R2B (Proud owner of a bow rider, top end 44 mph)

Wait a second...are you saying that there was indeed a speed limit in place at the time of that accident? And are you also saying that the speed limit failed to save the lives of those 6 innocent people? How can that be? The speed limit is about safety! It is supposed to protect us all!

So what you're saying is someone broke the Speed Limit law and in fact the Speed Limit Law in place did not work to prevent this tragedy. But I was told by the people on this message board that it was the security blanket we all needed. I am so confused right now. :confused: