Come on Dave, I'd take you on on that statement but in the end it's not worth the effort. You're being lead down a road, trying to reason with someone who just wants what they want, you won't win with these people, it's not worth arguing with them, these island people who want every other boat off the lake but theirs. Just make sure your Senators and Reps know what they are up to with their speed limit, much more effective than trying to reason with them.

Non-residents
 

It was my understanding from reading this thread that folks who live on the lake have a much greater say and respect for the lake than do the rest of us who only use the lake to our evil ends.

Also, doesn't at least some of this thread smack of "His house is bigger than mine so I don't like his house" ?

Gavia Immer

You don't like fast boats. You don't ike big boats. I'd be curious to know what kind of boat you own, and presumable do like! :confused:

Ok, let me address your last response to me point by point.

As for endangering kayaks, I seriously doubt that a cruiser wake would be more than a nuisance to a real kayak (not some inflatable thing or bathtub toy). Kayaks are extremely nimble, capable, seaworthy vessels. Heck, experienced kayakers even use them to traverse whitewater rapids! (I honestly wish that my back didn't prevent my using one to explore parts of the lake that my cruiser can't go.)

I'll take "injury to the casual boater" and "falls within boat" together. First, the rules say that you are supposed to be seated (in a manufactuirer-intended seating location) while underway. Given that, hitting a large wake at speeds that would send a passenger flying and cause injury is, IMHO, reckless operation. (Captain Bonehead sometimes takes the holm on small boats, too!) :eek:

As for damage to docked boats, well, cruiser wakes are not the only source of large waves on our lake; Mother Nature sometimes produces some dandy waves with no help from the boating community. :eek:

Anybody who cares about their boat should be taking advantage of the many fine products (e.g., fenders, dock bumpers, mooring whips, decent dock lines with snubbers) designed to prevent wave damage at the dock. (I utilize all of the above, plus back into my slip so the boat's bow faces outward.) :D

The above statement about Mother Nature also pertains to shoreline erosion. When Mother Nature gets her dander up, she flings waves with no letup whatever, sometimes for days on end. That purely has to be harder on a shoreline than wake action. If your shoreline is vulnerable to erosion, you're polluting the lake. :( Please stop it by fixing your shoreline, ASAP!

As for injury to a swimmer, I've never heard of a single documented case of this on our lake; have you? By the way, my 89 year old father prefers ocean swimming because he enjoys the waves! ;)

Likewise swampings; cases I've heard of were because of natural lake conditions (such as the recent one off Bear Island).

Canoes, I'll give you; they scare the heck out of me and I won't come anywhere near one (let alone within 150 feet) except at a dead slow crawl. :eek: I personally don't think that they belong out of the most sheltered coves on the calmest of days. Seems like they manage to get swamped with monotonous regularity even without assistance from boat wakes.

By the way, I personally enjoy "pootling along" at, if not headway speed, well below hull speed. It's relaxing and much easier on the fuel bills!

Silver Duck

I'm just havin' fun. I know I'll never be successful changing some minds and that's OK.

Earlier in this thread the comment was made that islanders have more right to a boat than others. You people jumped all over that one word for a long time.

I don't have a RIGHT to boat. I DO have a RIGHT to my home. My rights to property and to be safe and secure in my home are basic in the Constitution.

Your large boat can (and will) be forced to move to another body of water. My land and home can not be moved.

Your arguments are becoming silly.

The boat I use to get to the island pollutes a little I guess (like most boats), my home does not. Failed septic systems are rare and shut down quickly when found. My septic is state of the art and a long way from the water. I'm not sure how you think my dock pollutes, it doesn't have treated lumber.

Land Rights
 

Rights to land ownership are NOT constitutional as eminent domain is a state by state issue. The Supreme Court recently affirmed this in a case about New London, CT. The state and its people could very well deem your land better servers as a park or as a location for a factory and move you out as long as state law permits it.

Boating, like driving, is also considered a privilege.

Where your cruiser can't go is where kayaking is more pleasant.

My problem is much less with kayaking than with my sailboats getting hammered to a stop by excessive wakes and that small sailboats are disappearing from the lake. Hobie cats, with their two hulls, get banged to a halt even more readily.

I think I'll invite you to sit at my dock some weekend to watch the cruisers go by and watch the shoreline turn to mud with each "pass". To truly experience the cruisers' wakes, (and for your chair's location on the dock), I have just the spot! :eek:

Having a "ringside seat" on Winnipesaukee, I agree that some boats must be leaving the area. The size of the average boat appears to be getting much bigger as the years pass.

My "running average" (of about 24-feet) just got a huge bump from a few appearing here these last couple of days. That includes a three-engine Sonic, the largest Cigarette GFBL I've ever seen on the lake, and two "Express Cruisers" of about 35-40 feet. Technically, being an outboard, the Sonic can't be a GFBL, but those three outboards sure get noisy.

Can you account for the "less-friendly" atmosphere here at Winnipesaukee? Did it begin about the time five years ago when I posted the headline here that read, "Winnipesaukee means 'Noise and Action'"?

Bike Week does seem to have attracted a permanent "different sense" to this area.

Now I'm curious what sized boat you have in Maine (and don't apparently use), and what sized boat will you have there when you retire?

You and 120,000 other NH-registered boaters are saying the exact same thing about pollution and erosion! :laugh:

I have a naturally obscured view, an old dock, no path—no beach. My view from the dock is unobstructed for about 185°, and can see about 2 miles north, east and west—even out to The Broads.

"Dry" boat storage and pavement produces sudden runoff even more readily than non-McMansion lakeside residences and boat houses. Even then, I've got many years of experience watching my shoreline disappear. Tree roots uphill are being exposed even as "replacement duff" sprinkles down from the trees and "replacement mud" arrives from uphill.

I have a septic system, but hopefully, so does every boat out there. I expect that all visitors are using the facilities ashore.

Shore facilities—and pumpouts from those big boats—go somewhere.

Islander, I agree with you on all your major points. However you're wasting your time arguing with these people. They just don't see what you see and their minds are pretty much closed. I have a three foot undercut in my shoreline and trees fall into the lake frequently. In the last twentyfive years what was a sandy bottom is now covered with silt. The emerging water weeds are trapping more silt. The cause is persistent wakes, in an area that is protected against prevailing weather. Where I am, it's caused by circling wake boarders, skiers, and tubers, coupled with a full or above full lake. Those who disagree with you surely won't give you the last word, so this will be my only post on the subject.

You just noticed that? This whole discussion is amusing.




Big wakes are dumb, use excessive gas and cause erosion. I think we all agree on this.

I don't own a cabin cruiser or a GFBL, nor do I wish to.

You can try all you want to change laws and ban big or fast boats but even if you prove to be effective (not likely, based on your awful debating skills) you'll only affect those that own big and fast boats. Not me. :D I will happily continue to boat, as I have for years, and you'll probably continue to wish things were like the "good old days" and resist change without ever being satisfied. Ever try religion?

Perhaps you are not aware that the New Hampshire Constitution does not allow what happened in Connecticut. But just to be sure the legislature passed a law about a year ago to prevent that kind of taking.

Yes, boating is a privilege. We have all agreed to that over and over and over and over.

Islander. Knot is right. Even though you are right, the state did pass a law last year- that only prevents the taking of land by eminent domain for private use. The state could still take your land if they decided that it would be a nice place for a park. And the kicker is, they would probably not offer you anywhere near what it is worth.

Knot is Knot right! And neither are you. The owner must be paid fair value.

Even though the Supreme Court ruled in favor of taking the Connecticut homes it never happened. The owners tied them up in lawsuits over the value of the land.

However the issue was boaters vs homeowners on the lake. Some boats can and will be forced off the lake. The state buying up Bear Island to make a park is a pipe dream.

Are you really trying to say that boating on public property is the same as living in your own home?

Wrong Again!
 

Islander,

You are wrong again, the New London project continues:

http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=6666355

Islander...

I think your a bit off.... IF (and thats a BIG IF) the eco-friendly types got thier way, taking an island by emminent domain and setting it aside for conservation is a very plausible possibility, however unlikely it may seem to you. They could apply for some monster federal grant that requires little or no matching state funds. You are right that they have to offer a fair value... Fair value in this case will most likely be determined by your tax assessment. Its hard to argue that your property is worth more than the tax assessment and win...

Go check out Lake George... there are lots of state owned islands that you can rent and camp on!

I seriously doubt the state of NH will ever ban large boats from Lake Winnipesaukee. There are way too many marinas and boat owners and property owners that will fight that tooth and nail. Before you see large boats banned, or horsepower limits you will see distance restrictions based on weight... similar to the 300' distance from shore requirement for skicraft. A good example would be if your boat weighs more than 10000lbs, you cannot be above headway speed within 300' (or possibly more) of shore. This will help disspate some of the wave energy before it reaches the shoreline...

Woodsy

Woodsy - How can you be so wrong?

You said there would never be speed limits. Yet here we are with speed limits on Winnipesaukee this summer.

Its easy to argue assessed values when they are under fair market value, as they usually are.

Based on average property values and the number of homes, buying up Bear Island would cost at least 75 million. It would also involve closing two children's camps in operation for a century and closing two national historic sites. Ya, that's all going to happen. Is this what you dream of when you have those 1500 horsepower going 100 mph past my dock? Does it make you smile?

At least we now know what the anti speed limit crowd REALLY WANT. They want the islands turned into parks so they can stop off and have lunch. Tell the state that when they tear down our homes they should leave the docks and picnic tables to make it nice and comfy for you guys.

:laugh:

Hi Woodsy-

There are also several islands on Winnipesaukee that are parks. Unfortunately, hardly anyone uses them.

Islands are Parks???
 

Curious which Islands are also State Parks..if you have the time to respond.

None of them are state parks. I was using "park" in the generic.

Stonedam, Ragged and Five Mile are in their natural state and accessible under certain conditions. I think the www.bizer.com site has information.

Ohh...
 

Excuse my ignorance...

APS

I'd love to come sit on your dock some afternoon, just to meet you! As far as experiencing wakes, well, I doubt that either you home or dock bounce as much as my cruiser does when a big wake strikes!:D

I'm also intimately familiar with how a wake can stop a sailboat dead in the water; I grew up racing small sailboats, remember? I remember many a time when I lost a race because of a wake :(, and cussing my fool head off about it (under my breath -I was still young enough to have had my mouth washed out with soap if I'd said those things out loud.)

In all seriousness, I don't like big wakes, either, and I'm very, very conscious of how much I'm throwing, and where. IMHO, that's a responsibility that comes with operating a largish boat (I sure wish that the captain of the Sophie C would catch on to that).

It's just that, as always and on all subjects, I object to punishing everyone for offensive behavior on the part of some.

Silver Duck

People who live on glass islands shouldn't.....
 

Well Woodsy, at least you are in good company. I remember not too long ago a poster insisting that radio controlled model boats in New Hampshire had to be registered! Hmmm, let me think......:laugh:

Islander-you are wrong, twice. I absolutely do not want any islands turned into parks. Second, they are SUPPOSED to offer fair market value in eminent domain cases, but they don't. I can tell you this for a fact and I can tell you of others who will back me up. I think you have a right to your land and no one should be able to take it away from you. For anything, period. But I would also hope that you wouldn't wish someone to take my boat/s away.

Islander...

You sure do have your dander up today!!

We have two speed limit test zones... we do not have a lakewide speed limit. I am as interested as anyone to learn what data comes out of those test zones.

Arguing your assessed tax value in a prolonged eminent domain case would be detrimental to your wealth. I can see you trying to explain that to the town assesor... I am sure the tax assesor would be seeing $$$!

As far as Bear Island property being taken by eminent domain, I was merely pointing out that it could happen. I never said that I wanted it to happen. In fact if you reread my post, you'll note I referenced the Eco-Friendly crowd. The reality is getting 75 million or so from the Feds probably isn't all that hard if it gets the proper political backing. I wonder what NH DES and NH Lakes Assoc thinks??

Woodsy

PS: My boat does not have 1500HP nor does it go 100MPH. In my last run thru Bear Island, 3500 RPM netted 41MPH...

Well the speed limit in there is 45 MPH and I always heard the minimum speed was 10 less than the maximum. So by that logic, you have to do at least 35 MPH in there.

JRC...

I borrowed a friends GPS.... The speedo in my boat doesn't work well, and I wanted to know what speed @ what RPM. I wouldn't want to break the law or upset our Bear Island folks...

Woodsy

That was meant to be a joke. I forgot the smile faces
:laugh: :emb: ;) :D :laugh: :eek:

I'd have gone around...
 

Gee, kinda late for that don't you think. What with all the trees you musta knocked over going thru Bear Island, I'd have thunk they'd be pretty PO'ed no matter what the speed .... :devil: :D

ps - So how many cabins did ya score ? Should NH put a round-a-bout there ? ;)

M&M,you always have something funny to post.I thought a round-a-bout around Eagle Island would have been better than a NWZ.But then again,one way signs,and what if you hit the curb on the island?

If you have tubeless props, you could potentially unseat a bead.

Being that Eagle is on the market for sale I am assuming that they are tired of having boats jump the curb and end up in their front lawn...:laugh:

Not a good idea, a round-a-bout would cause a whirlpool, which would suck all the kayaks and canoes in the lake to that location. Island people wouldn't like that, all those paddle marks in their water.;)

Good point Codeman.You could always put Jersey barriers around the island!

If I remember correct, Timber Island, which is a huge island, 126 acres, was put up for sale a few years back for only 1.3 million dollars. Most of it to remain untouched, by easement, and it took a long time for the sale to go thru. It was a shame that the State of NH did not buy it. They could have bought it for a bargain basement, super-duper, lowest price - highest quality. dirt cheap price and then taken their time figuring out how to use it someday when the state has the money. Did they do it? No, of course not. What's to expect from the then majority of the 'live free or die' Republicans? 'Foresight.....outlook.... & thinking about tomorrow'....not present at that time.

We always hear that the lake belongs to the peoples of NH. So why not Timber Island, that very large and untouched primieval forest-island, too? Who knows, there could be a long time Neanderthal family happily living off the land, hidden away deep inside Timber Island? Anyone been hearing those drum beats late at night coming from Timber Island? They be going - boom da da - boom - da da -boom boom boom!

At 1.3 mil for 126 acres, that's $10k/acre and Timber Isl could be part of the state park system, waiting the day for when a D is in office who could find the funds to create it. But no, the 2003 Benson R-team was just not interested.

(...gotta go now - time to take my medication!)

From kayak, I've noticed a great many more fresh green trees have fallen in the water this year than in previous years. Take a kayak around and see for yourself.

Last spring, the Dep of Safety suggested 600' to stop wake damage to shorelines but that didn't work out so well, did it? From 600', you can't see what's happened to the shoreline from your wakes.

Could all the trees fallen in the water be a result of high lake levels due to flooding the past 2 seasons?

OK, but bring a House-Bounce-O-Meter® with you. ;)

Bounce, maybe, but I'll bet you stay dryer on your boat than where I'll have you seated on my dock! :)

(Look for a PM).

Afternoons are not as...um...entertaining...as mornings are. I can only speculate as to why the very same cruisers will return, creeping along, in the afternoon. Maybe it's a sensible warming-up of the engines before a headlong blast towards Smith Cove, Saunders Bay, Weirs and Lakeport?

A Formula on eBay's auction site broke apart and sank after hitting a Winnipesaukee wake.

And how sailboats are diminishing in numbers on Winnipesaukee too, perhaps?

You may recognize the most offensive of cruisers—and may want to have a word with a few of them yourself.

When the lake gets overfilled, you can expect erosion. The past year of THREE high water episodes will magnify shoreline erosion, with windy days being the worst. Wakes from boats multiply the effect of natural wave action on windy days. On calm days, when no erosion would take place, wakes continue the erosion process and eventually the roots have nothing to hold onto.

A certain number of trees fall in every year. When the trees still have leaves on them, those are recent falls. Compared to previous years, "green falls" since Spring of 2006 are a very high number. "Green falls" are all around, and on all shores. You need to look up close to see that they're newly fallen.

Thank you NOT
 

I want to thank the large cabin cruiser that ran in front of me at high speed near Black's Basin today. I had the right of way and ended up with a huge wake over the bow. Unbelievable!

Wonder if it was the same Jack Donkey who came up behind me (maybe 50 feet off my stern) off Echo Point in Alton Bay this afternoon. At least I didn't need to hose down the interior of my bow-rider later!

Sounds like we need a horsepower limit!