So you also think then that the accumulation of data was a ploy then and part of their agenda?

Also, you don't feel the economy has nothing to do with the lack of boats on the lake?

Just wondering your opinion.

Thanks NoRegrets,

Thats what I thought. I like the term :D

Turtle boy.

You made this statement twice yesterday:

“...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH”

I am a little confused here and maybe you can clarify. How does a boat “screaming” by you at 70 MPH at a distance of 150 feet impact you in a negative way? As long as the “screaming” boat stays 150 away from you, I don’t understand how it would have a negative impact on you.

As a follow up question; has this ever actually happened to you?

Finally, does anybody have information about the 1 speeding ticket that was issued?

The bottom line for me is that of all of the high performance boats I know of, none have left the lake, and none are doing anything differently. So, how can the lake be any quieter? In fact, I have noticed some additional HP boats on the lake this year. The Marine Patrol has always stated that speed was never an issue. The issue is a very small group of selfish, self-centered individuals trying to avenge the death of their friend. And, what's worse, maybe using this tragedy not to avenge, but for their own personal benefit to get what they really want, another Golden Pond and the lake to themselves.

As a followup to the "screaming" boats..... are you implying that fishing boats screaming past you over 150 ft. are too loud? or just GFB?

I heard thru a friend that the ticket was going to be a warning but the person was rude to the MP officer......

pm203

You lost me on this:

“The issue is a very small group of selfish, self-centered individuals trying to avenge the death of their friend.”

Maybe its me and I killed off a few to many brain cells this weekend. Could you clarify this? It is the first time I have heard this theory.

After the Littlefield accident and a loss of a neighbor and friend in that accident, a small group of people vowed to get rid of all the high performance boats on the lake to avenge his death. This was the catalyst that advanced a law that was previously turned down several times by the senate.

I will not be surprise that if the BAJA was a bass boat, they would be banning bass boats instead of GFBL. Likewise if it was a big cruiser.

Am I mistaken or does Turtle Boy consistently drag my personal life, my job into the debate.

Because my grasp on the polling data or the statistics differs from your opinion does not make you the least bit correct. Nor does my profession have any validity in this discussion. What is it that you do for a living and how does it affect this debate?

I'm trying Don... Really I am.... :laugh:

A little Help
 

I will agree that the difference is night and day so pay attention because I am going to help you out a little as you are trying to compare the 2008 economy with 2009. First you mentioned the gas, so that is covered as to the difference between the years, but I will post in my list anyway. All figures are fiscal year start to date.

Description 2008 2009

Nat. Unemployment 5.8% 9.7%

NH Unemployment 3.9% 6.9%

Gas $5.00 $3.00

The next list is my companies growth comparing 2008 to 2007 and 2009 to 2008. Again Fiscal year start to date. I am in the remodeling industry, we do not build new houses or spec homes or developments, we remodel existing homes. We have out performed 4 out of 6 of our peers in the Lake Sunapee region.

Description 2008 V 2007 2009 V 2008

Sales volume +8% -49%


Our company is now half the size it was in 2007 in all aspects and that started in November of 2008. Like I said we out performed 4 of our 6 direct competitors (companies of like size and sales volume) We do not count the back of the pickup truck or fly by nighters in our data, you have to have a showroom, professional appearence with vehicles and an annual sales volume of over 1 million (average).

The major difference in this year to last is that every job this year has had 4-6 bids submitted with most of the winning bidders bids at our cost. We rutinely follow up with customers and clients to get an idea of why and what caused them to go with someone else over us. Our company does not sell or deliver cheap, we sell and deliver professionalism and quality. If you do not believe me visit my website www.foremostbuilders.com .

Hopefully this will give you a better idea of what the difference between 2008 and 2009 is really like. Not some pipe dream that you think has nothing to do with the amount of boating activity on the lake. The speed limit has as much to do with it as the water temp.

If none of the owner's of the GFBL's that you know are doing anything differently, yet he sees a huge difference this year in GFBL behavior, then maybe the issue is that your friends are behaving more badly (read "breaking the law") than the average GFBL owner. As El said, wouldn't it be nice if all of us could pick and choose which laws to obey. This is why Speed Limits will be here to stay. As far as a small group wanting the lake to themselves, you're as welcome as anyone else...and the compromise of 45/25 allows you to go very fast still (though I don't understand all the grumbling about the SL if the SL hasn't changed yours or your friends behavior one bit).

The problem is that they set themselves up to have no measure of effectiveness for the law. When you are measuring the effectiveness like this, you have to have in advance an idea of what success is and what failure is. If lots of tickets is a success, then no tickets cannot also be success. It is possible for something to be incorrect, no matter how much you want it to be correct. To refuse to acknowledge that there is a measure in which something could fail is poor form.

The economy started spiraling last fall, with Lehman Brothers being the first real sign we were in trouble. That was one year ago yesterday. This season has been quieter for two reasons: weather & economy. You have blinders on if you don't believe that. In June, 23 out of 30 days were rainy. July was similar. August was beautiful, but by that time a lot of people give up. The same thing happens at ski mountains; if December & January are warm/snow free, then even if February/March are awesome, the numbers for those months are still down.

Funny, How it changes your behavior....................................

Not gonna let this slide either
 

I am curious:
What Stats? The ones that showed nobody was speeding on the lake? Or the Stats that show little to no accidents associated with High Speed?

While it is true that the accident may have been the catalyst for many people, it was not indicative of the real problem.

The real problems were many but near the top of the list was the steady increase in the average boat size and horsepower, environmental concerns, and the increasing cowboy atmosphere of the lake. Most importantly it was the direction the lake was going in.

You can believe that it's revenge against performance boats if you wish. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.

OK. Now you are talking about all boats. Not just GFBL. On this aspect, I will have to agree with you. Unfortunately there are people that wants to ban a specific class of boats i.e. GFBL. This is like racism. Give a certain type of boaters a bad name. If the above quote is the real agenda then it will help tremendously in approaching a real compromise among all boaters and waterfront owners on Winnipesaukee and possibly all of NH.

If we can concentrate on corralling the 'cowboys' and 'Captain Boneheads', I think we can speak volumes in reducing the fear factor and increase safe boating.

I hope the majority of the SL opponents will agree with me. :)

Yes, if allowed, I am breaking my self-imposed no posting here :(

But BroadHopper sates what many of us have stated for a long time, especially this year.

I have bolded what I think says it all. BI, I think these folks can help you accomplish just that. By next year and thereafter, the economy "probably" will have recovered to more normal levels. Now's a great time to start working together towards a common goal. BroadHopper, in a single sentence, has defined that common goal very well.

I definately agree.. Enforcement of the safe passage law and education is the way to curve this issue. Speed limits do nothing to reduce fear and or improve safety.

In my personal observations it is not the $200K GFB cruising at 55mph that you have to be worried about. Its the family driving the "Thurstons Marina Rental Boat" that I steer FAR away from.

The GFB normally has much more experience and stake in his boat then the weekend warriors or Capt'n BH!

Couldn't be more spot on!!

Oooo oooo I got that one
 

Well FWIW I can answer yes, yes to all. We're perhaps 8' from the road (busy at times) and about 40' from the water. And only 5' above the water line too so I think I've got this one covered. Do I win a prize ?

ps - I've got a few trees but I'm sure a small plane could crash into the cabin with just a little effort. I like to live dangerously ! :rolleye1:

Originally posted by BI
While I disagree with Bear Islander 100% on the speed limit issue he has always maintained that his support for speed limits has little to do with safety, the only supporter that I am aware of that honestly makes that statement.

I find it interesting I have read that WinnFabs was created in part by two of the principles in the Littlefield accident that MAY have been linked to the cause of the accident...it is my opinion that the entire Speed Limits push was nothing more than a red herring to shift public opinion away from them and toward a "solution in search of a problem".

So, is it safety, fear or noise? I guess it is whatever sounds good at the time.

It is all three plus many more. And most of them come down to the direction the lake is headed in. The bigger, faster, louder, more power, "get out of my way" trend must be reversed.

But how does a speed limit do that?

The trend has already been reversed. And, its not by the speed limit. I think the economy and weather has alot to do with it. I find that the smaller boats with uneducated boaters have more of the " get out of my way" mentality. They are the real cowboys of the lake.

A horsepower limit would do it better. However a speed limit will....

set a standard
change the lakes direction a little
give the Marine Patrol another enforcement tool against Capt. B
pressure people to buy less powerful boats
pressure the "need for speed" crowd to go elsewhere
make the lake less desirable to Capt. B
it might even slow some people down

PM203 - I agree with you that the smaller boats are a much bigger problem!

Bear Islander is very true to his perspectives and correct in his logic. Thank you for that! I am sorry VT Steve that you have some sort of self imposed no posting policy going (I hope it is short lived!). There is plenty of goading but it seems to correct itself after some entertaining bantering!!!

The diverse opinions being written about by all are finally defining the real issue. This is not the only place in the country where sharing resources have created actions that are being debated. This forum is unique where it allows people to communicate and vent for both entertainment and education. We are really lucky to have it!

The population is crowding more people into desirable spaces. Trying to ration who and how people enjoy the lake is wrong! One can whine and beg all they want but the lake is public for the benefit of all. It has great history and is the only resource of this size that should be able to accommodate those that choose to rev it up a bit. The slippery slope that the Speed Limit Law offers is that it may never stop until only man powered crafts or swimmers are allowed to use the lake. I feel the smallest group is the first to be attacked or ruled out, next they will go for the cruisers, then the boats on trailers, etc. It may never stop until those that control the media or politicians have their exclusive lake without the all the inconveniences mentioned.

Go for the boneheads, rude, and un-educated and all will follow. I have no problem with bigger, faster, or more powerful equipment. I think it is amazing how technology and materials can support specialty vessels that some enjoy. The louder (already governed by law) and “get out of my way” issues should be addressed. Speed limits hurt many law abiding people that have the same rights as the rest of us have (for now!:().

BI, I think they call that wishful thinking.

No Regrets,

Excellent post! Everybody does need to get along. There are many times when I find sail boats to be a pain. I don't form an organization and try to get them banned. I respect them and their right to use the lake. Unfortunately, everybody does not share that opinion.

You have a very liberal interpretation of Capt. B. The vast majority of Capt. B's I've encountered are not boats that I'd consider fast, nor were they generally going fast when acting poorly. I'm not saying there aren't any, just vastly outnumbered by the hoards of smaller, slower boats doing stupid things on the lake.

I contend that the vast majority of these boneheads you talk about, are unaffected by the SL law. The only thing that would discourage boneheads is to have the MP's stop them all the time, and ticket them. Mostly, they wouldn't be stopped for speeding. I think your still in the hope and pray mode, while others are looking for tangible solutions. Not knocking what you're saying, but you're hoping a speed limit law will make some boats go elsewhere, and even discourage bad boaters in general to go elsewhere.

That's just having a law of some kind and see if it works on anything. Scatter gun legislation is better than not at all? Not in my book.

Economy
 

Just for the record, the Dow Jones Index didn’t drop until October 2008, after most boats were out of the water, unemployment was in the low 6’s through November (it is now at 9.5), there was not a recognized faltering economy during the 2008 boating season in New Hampshire.

People who can spend six figures plus for GFBL’s are not affected by fluctuations in the price of gasoline which causes them to pay maybe a couple of [hundred] bucks more for a fill up, they are effected by a seven figure hit to their portfolios or a lost job.

Proof of this is the price of boats, new and used, fell in the September/October 2008 time frame, after the market fell and at the time gas prices were also falling.

There are fewer boats on the lake this year because toys tend to be sold off before people give up their homes.

You make very good points with numbers to support them. I hope things improve for your business...People are seeing signs of this and I hope they're right. We're having a little construction done and can see the builders are really hurting. Many people on forum are attributing all the change on the lake to weather and economy, and while they may contribute, I would add the following. August weather was great, and I boated more in August than I can remember. Secondly, gas prices, according to what people have said on this forum, are a major contributor to how much people boat. Now 9.7%/6.9%US/NH unemployment is not good, and many of the other 90.3%/93.1% have also been affected, but there are many on the lake who have been somewhat insulated(and I'm sorry it's not you)....many on pensions, many in the public and medical sectors, etc., etc.,and many who come to Winni are probably better off than the average person. There were many days in August when the traffic near me seemed almost normal; my point is that their behavior was different. The previously described GFBL's screaming 150' past the fisherman at 70 MPH were pretty much gone for example. As much as some on the forum would deny it, it can't all be explained by the economy and weather. The manner in which people are boating has changed for the better, even if fewer are boating. Good luck with your business...next year should be better.

Thurston
 

You should also notice that Thurston Marine is one of the chief proponent of the speed limits. They broke away from the NH Marine Trade Assoc. because the assoc. is against the speed limits. Their rentals have cause more problems other than the PWC rentals on the lake than any rentals that I know. I also think Thurston's was also trying to shift public opinion of them.

Obviously, the dramatic recession and the weather conspired to limit boating nationwide. Sales plummeted this year again, and limited access to loans, adjusting the required loan to value (LTV) turned away bargain shoppers that probably shouldn't have looked in the first place. Our slips were full as usual, but out on the lake it was noticeably quiet all the way through Labor Day weekend, which was pretty good weather-wise. I don't expect the boat industry to come back quickly, as many dealers are build to order operations now, with the floorplan costs so high.

So many boats, and expensive ones at that, were purchased the last few years through home equity LOC's and refi cash-outs. Obviously, I wouldn't plan on that coming back too soon. There were places I could visit this year that are usually crazy in a normal summer. But in June and July, nobody had much desire to do much of anything. The incredible paydown of credit card debt was a clear indication that people were tightening, and understood that further spending could sink them.

It'll be interesting to see what happens next summer, assuming we have one :( It won't stay quiet forever, it never does.

SL or no SL, why is this an issue? Previous laws have determined that 150' was 'safe passage' at any speed.

I also tried to find the MP report of this incident, but was unsucessful. Would you happen to have a copy, or is this just another example of ficticious fearmongering?

Lack of education and CB's are the real issues on the lake. They were there in 2008 and they are here in 2009. The feel good law did nothing to solve any problems.

Business in and of itself is fine, just down. We did compensate early enough that the bottom line is still the same just sales are down. Thank you for your response. However we have seen a larger hit of people losing their jobs that are in the upper tax brackets, many of our clients have asked to put off work that was scheduled for next year after their portfolios went into the trenches. 76% of our current client base own two or more homes. I agree with MeEscape's post above regarding the toys being the first things to receive neglected attention, same goes for additional dwellings. When the folks that can afford the toys and the second homes start seeing that the ax could make it to their level they cinch up the purse strings and focus money on other things. On the times I was out on the lake this year on both Winni (July 4-5, Aug 15-16 and 29-31) and Sunapee (Sept 5-6) the numbers of boats seemed very low compared to the years past and those were all very good boating days and two were holiday weekends. Working on Sunapee for most of the July and August months the traffic was down considerably even during the week. Maybe some of the cowboys around you are some of the same folks that fall into that current unemployment number.

Whoa, calm down there buckaroo....that's the point, speeding past a fisherman (or anyone else) at 70 MPH at a distance of 150' was legal until this year...unpleasant, irritating but legal. Not any longer. And despite some who contend otherwise, the Sl was not ONLY about safety. As far as your melodrama about ficticious fearmongering...chill.

Wow... I can't believe how close to peril I have lived my life.

Sorry. I'm calm now.

I like to enjoy the lake as much as you and everybody else. We both certainly have the right to take a stance in the debate. We can certainly agree to disagree. One issue I feel very strongly about and could be proven with facts, is the SL did not change anything it was intended to change.

For the record, I do not own a GFBL. I'm just rational.

Enjoy the afternoon!

Most of us don't
 

Most of us feel the same way as you and don't own a fast boat, but to steal Airwave's line from above- why let that get in the way of a good argument!