What a sham!
 

All according to your ever present agenda driven opinion.

Statistic have been repeatedly presented that less than 10% these accidents have had anything to do with speed. Speed is not the issue here nor nationwide.

Seems to me the speed limit side consists of you and your alter ego's previously revealed by the moderator of this forum to all come from the same IP.

Barrett is saying a speed limit will not do anything to change things on this lake.

Registered voters in Salem, NH on a Monday evening in July?

Fill us in on the parameters of this so-called poll.

And of course all are a direct result of speed , correct??? Or are you purposely omittiing the WHOLE truth to lead us to believe it was speed related:rolleye2:

Please back up this statement...
 

Islander,

Where and when was this poll taken?

You could add significant creditability to your statements by providing references.

Making statements without providing references makes you look foolish.

R2B

Thank you
 

Thank you for your polite and reasoned response...I was afraid my question might be taken as a bit of a slam...it was not meant that way.

I don't have the faith that you do in my fellow man that a speed limit will make a difference...too much experience on the lake with rude captains of all types of boats. It may remove certain types of watercraft from the lake, but I think the reckless and rude behavior, and the danger inherent when such people operate a boat, will remain.

Islander:
Islander:
You've made some pretty serious accusations by implying the Marine Patrol is:
Stupid, sabotaging data and misuse of power for private gain.
Yep, you've crossed the line.

2 Calmly asked questions.

Do you happen to know the exact question that was asked which yielded a 78% affirmative response?

Do you "think" that if the question had been:
Would you favor a state wide lakes and ponds speed limit system in NH that is similar to the roads where the speed limit is proportional to the ability of the road to handle vehicles of a certain speed?

This is not a trick question, just wondering if 79% would agree to this question?

Now I have to drive home on 93 at 65 mph+ with inattentive drivers who try to break the 1 foot rule. Now that's scary.

You are unfortunately correct, speed limits will not "fix" the lake. However it is a step in the right direction. Other lakes that have enacted speed limits have had positive results without the dire consequences predicted in this forum. And law enforcement officials from those lakes report few enforcement problems.



Resident 2B - The study was done by the American Research Group in February of 2007. Please look up the data yourself. Anything I post will be discounted anyway.



Instead of beating up on me the opposition could take their issues to some of the local marinas that have signed on to support speed limits.

Fay’s Boatyard, Thurston’s Marina, Meredith Marina, Trexler’s Marina, Paugus Bay Marina, Y-Landing Marina, Glendale Marine, Lands End Marine, River Edge Marine

I applaud the courage of these Marina owners in standing up to the we need speed crowd. Clearly they see that speed limits will be good for the lake and the lakes economy.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Why does anyone who does not live on the lake or use the lake CARE if there is a speed limit or not? People in Manchester who have never seen the lake would have no idea what to say in a survey response, nor should they be asked!

Except they own the lake.

(The people of New Hampshire that is)

No Record
 

Islander,

I went to the web site for the American Research Group and learned they do consumer research. I searched for "lake speed limit" looking to match any word (Lake, Speed or Limit) and I got the following response:

America's Research Group > Home

Match: Any Format: Short
Refine search:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Documents 1 - 3 of 3 matches. More 's indicate a better match.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Furniture Buying Index: America's Research Group
... news for furniture retailers, The Furniture Buying Index continues to hold steady this month. * APRIL -FURNITURE BUYING INDEX UP ONE POINT Full speed ahead, Furniture Buying Index back up to 90 in April * FEBRUARY -FURNITURE BUYING INDEX UP TWO POINTS Furniture Buying Index gives retailers momentum ...
http://americasresearchgroup.com/furniture_buying.html 08/08/07, 27853 bytes
America's Research Group

FURNITURE BUYING INDEX UP ONE POINT --Full speed ahead, Furniture Buying Index back up to 90 in April -- Charleston, SC April 1, 2004 – The Furniture Buying Index is up one point this month to a reading of 90. This is good news for furniture retailers because this means the Index is holding ...
http://americasresearchgroup.com/fbi_0404.html 04/08/04, 10551 bytes
America's Research Group

America's Ten Most Budget-Conscious Cities 1. Orlando, Florida 2. Buffalo, New York 3. Salt Lake City, Utah 4. Youngstown, Ohio 5. Johnstown, Pennsylvania 6. Toledo, Ohio 7. Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania 8. El Paso, Texas 9. Rockford, Illinois 10. Odessa, Texas Selling Business Books to Businesspeople ...
http://americasresearchgroup.com/mr_archive_7_8.html 04/23/02, 12658 bytes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I cannot verify your data or your statement. Would you please back-up your reference to this interesting data. If you are unable to, it would appear to all normal people that the "78% of NH voters favoring a speed limit" statement is just another of your fabrications.



R2B

That Devil is once again in the details....
 

In late June of 2005 a poll of six hundred randomly telephoned New Hampshire residences resulted in 64% of the respondents in favor of the question, 22% opposed and 14% undecided.

The exact wording of the question was:

Do you favor or oppose a law that would impose speed limits for boats on large lakes in New Hampshire?

The American Research Group conducted a poll, not a study. The poll was conducted in 2005, not 2007 and those supporting the question posed totaled 64%, not 78%.

Perhaps these mistakes are why Islander did not supply the following LINK to verify her claims?

Ah, maybe we should poll our readers to study this issue further! :D


There are three kinds of lies; lies, damn lies and then there are statistics - Mark Twain

If you respect the guy so much, you should try to remember the name of his forum, it's not BoatUS, it is:

BoaterEd, Dedicated to Boater Education

I send money to BoatUS every year and they would never support a boat banning bill. Even if you put a bow on it and call it a speed limit.

Do you people know why you are arguing every little point and finding fault when someone uses "study" instead of "poll"?

It's because you have lost the main argument and you know it.




There was a study done in 2005, the result was 64%. It was done again in February of 2006 and the result was 63%. They also asked again in February of 2007 and the result was 78%. This is not listed on the main web site, I have no idea why. I could probably find it somewhere else but why should I bother, you will find some other fault with it or decide it doesn't count for some reason.

Just take my word for it, or call me a liar. But if you call me a liar be sure and come back later and apologize when you find out I am right.

When all else fails, then....
 

That's the same line the good folks over at the Flat Earth Society foist upon their critics....:D

Call me a liar or drop it!

Can someone do a poll on here?
 

I am looking but have not found how to do one. I think its time we polled winni.com. I think we can prove to Islander that she is losing the battle! And before we do, is there anyway to prevent one poster from submitting their choice more than once? Cause I know Islander would spend the next millenium up all night posting, posting, posting......

Taking a POLL vs. doing a STUDY!
 

Islander, do you know the difference between the two?

Islander, I think you have proven your point. You don't know the difference between a poll and a study.

You have exaggerated and twisted the facts. You have accused the leadership of the Marine Patrol of abusing their office for personal gain.

Islander, you really need to chill. The facts don't back up your statements and your accusations are getting annoying and could be considered slanderous.

Step back my friend.

A poll on this site will make life tough for our webmaster. There will be a flood of new members on both side as everyone gets there friends and relatives to sign up. After the poll we will never hear from them again. If you look at the old posts on this site you will see a lot of one topic posters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Islander

Plus the death toll is rising. Four in the area just this summer. And Coast Guard statistics show boating accidents on the rise.



Like I said , are they ALL related to speed??? Huh , huh...inquiring minds want to know:confused:
Or would you say that just to make it SOUND like speed was the cause?

I do not know the speed of the boats involved. I don't think it matters all that much. The two fatalities in Maine obviously involved high speed, the exact numbers are not important.

Two separate PWC accidents killed two teenagers and badly injured two more. Again I don't know the speeds, but teenagers going fast on a PWC is not unusual. And a crash at low speeds is not as likely to kill.

However the real benefit of a speed limit will be that less people will be putting high speed craft on the lakes of New Hampshire. When the speed limit passes families will purchase fewer PWC's. Some teenagers might even be forced to move from a PWC to a kayak.

A popular movie once quoted "if you build it, they will come". I would paraphrase that to "if you don't buy it, they can't ride it" or even "if you don't buy it, they can't be killed on it".

Ooooooooooooohhh , I understand now. That's not lying , the original statement was just a little miss leading:rolleye1: .
As for your quote please let me appologize , I forgot we are no long responsible for our actions and require laws to protect us from ourselves.
MY gawd woman , what's next , rubber rooms for all of us:laugh: :laugh:

FYI , kayaks by themselves (with out any other boats around) aren't 100% safe either.

Bear Islander. Yes, I know the people of NH own the lake. Just as we own the roads. But I don't really care what the speed limit is in Andover NH because I never go there. It doesn't really bother me if it is 20 or 70. Why should I care. It is just not relevent to me personally. So again, why should people who don't use the lake care???

Is this attitude any hint of the nanny laws we should expect from a Hillary presidency?

The citizens of NH have the responsibility to set certain limits for public safety. This is done through elected representatives, but the final responsibility is with the people.

Ultimately it's the responsibility of the citizens to determine if a speed limit is needed on NH lakes.

Also consider the speed limit will be state wide, including any lakes in Andover. Most citizens live near a lake, have been on a lake or will be on a lake.

Exhausted by distractions in this thread
 

Islander: I don't feel that NH Marine Patrol has either embarrassed me or insulted my intelligence. I know I've said that I studied French for 4 years in school and then I was allowed to take French II - but seriously Islander, what joke and etc. did I miss?

Remove your blinders and try to look at speed limit discussions and this test rationally, objectively and intelligently, if you can. "Real" data was collected during these tests. This was a fact-finding experiment. Collecting data on measuring boat speed using various methods and equipment. It was not just about setting up a marked speed trap but I'm sure it was a part of the overall experiment. Maybe they were collecting data on the difference between those same boats inside and outside the speed limit test areas? I don't have experience or a degree in this field but I can imagine there are people who do. Are you one of them?

IMHO There are more than 3 likely possibilities different from the ones you "think" are the only possibilities we are left with. Each one of the three POSSIBILITIES you present here and have eluded to in other posts need some explaining.

Do you really believe there is NO ONE around that misses the concept that boaters (and car drivers) behave better when the "COPS" are in sight? I don't have statistics to back me up but I'd guess at least a few at MP and in government are aware of this phenomenon - but that might be a low estimate.

1. You really think that the Marine Patrol and Dept of Safety are are "clueless"? Your desire to want us to believe this does not make it true. What are your credentials or sources that allow you to present this as a possibility?

2. The MP can not come up with an unmarked boat? How you could consider this a possibility. How many UNmarked boats might you miss seeing?

3. Corruption as a possibility. Hmmm what do you know and are you in the witness (or forum :laugh: ) protection program?

All three of the possibilities you claim we are left with appear to be simply agenda driven rather than a productive discussion of the issues.

This style of debate really does detract and distract from the main topic: Speed Limits.

I could go on but as other have pointed out, this is getting tedious.

BoatUS, BoatSafe, BoaterEd, BoatFix, BoatEd, BoatArrgh...
 

Oops...You're right of course. :blush:

One relies on waterway fate, and the other relies on waterway education—how can those two get mixed up? :confused:

As to respect, Silver Duck and I are both BoaterEd forum members and are very respectful of Les Hall's expertise: when Les Hall does chime in, somebody will change the subject!

That Les Hall's take on Winnipesaukee speed limits echoes my own must be a coincidence of the first order. ;)

Les and I are not alone about Lake Winnipesaukee, however. :look:

Skipper

I did not mean to say that all three options where true, just one of them. I think clearly the truth is number three.

The MP have opposed speed limits from the beginning.

The Committee was all set to send speed limits to the floor, when Barrett pulled this test zone idea out of his hat. Nobody had asked him to do it, he thought it up by himself.

He then went ahead announcing it, purchasing equipment to do it and in fact started the program without legislative approval or even knowing if what he was doing was legal. How do you announce the date you are going to start issuing violations when the legislature has not even approved your idea?

The legislature now knows what he is all about, and the committee shut him down with a unanimous vote.

I doubt that any "real data" was obtained. The purpose was never to collect any "data". The purpose was to delay the speed limit bill.

You may have a different opinion, this is America. I respect that you may have an alternate opinion. It is not necessary for you to insult me because you do not agree with mine.

Then quit insulting those who are in support of exercising the rights to be boaters.

The marinas who have listed are from Winnfabs webpage back in 2005, have 'jumped ship'. You will see them opposing the speed limits on the opposehb847 web site. I wish you would be more up to date on your facts.

This is why speed laws are needed
 

This accident occurred on the ocean this past weekend/

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/article/8695

Direct link to video.

http://www.brightcove.com/title.jsp?title=1155180898

These guys are running the same way on the inland lakes.

The numbers of these "water rockets" is growing all the time. (term used in the opinion part)

The number of idiots with the deep pockets to buy them, and not enough training or experience in their operation, is also growing.

Woodsy is a sensible responsible person that can operate a performance boat with safety. This is also true of many others. But some are knuckleheads with a large bank account and an online certificate.

Until we realize these facts the accident rate and death toll will continue to climb.





GWC - My post is number 20, where you will notice I am arguing against Island Lover!

Sorry if that screws up a conspiracy theory.

So are you implying this is happening on Lake Winni?? I've yet to see it in the 7 summers I've been here. :rolleye2:

The only data you will call real is data that which reinforces your position. Unfortunately for you there is no data to support you. The data you use is data that you twist or to which you draw illogical, erroneous conclusions. There were six test sites, of which two were announced. The fact is that the data from these tests does not support the need for a speed limit. You've been waiting for a couple of years for a speed related death, ghoulish in my opinion, to bolster your position. It hasn't happened so you make it up as you go. You insult professional law enforcement officers and as far as I am concerned have written libelous things about Mr. Barrett. You don't have the data, when the data comes out not supporting you, you say it is bogus.

There is no need for a speed limit, it won't help the lake, it won't reduce wakes, it won't reduce the number of boats, it won't turn your waterfront into "On Golden Pond". It will detract from the many successful efforts of the MP who will have to spend countless hours trying to catch the small to non existent minority who may occasionally go above 45 mph. You watch, if the speed limit passes the number of deaths on Lake Winnipesaukee will increase. This is only your selfish agenda that is driving this and it is not right. You've pointed out that the state has more liberals in government now, well let's see if liberals succumb to fear mongering and lies or if they use common sense.

If that is so, when has it happened here? Show us some local video, please!

Your twisting of facts and embellishment of situations is totally out of control and approaching immoral!

We boat on this lake, not in the ocean. Kayakers are breaking the rules in our lake more often that boats capable of going faster than 45 MPH and other boaters in "slow" boats are grossly disregarding the good rules that are already in place, but those of you that think you are "so special" want to impose a speed limit.

Let the MP do their jobs and get behind existing safe boating rules if you really want to make the lake safer!

Stop the bombardment based upon fictional "facts" and the embellishment of things only remotely related to support your view of how life should be on our lake.

Free speach is very dangerous when it is not representing reality or is purposely biased to support an otherwise unsupportable position.

A wise American once said: "You can fool some people all of the time, and all people some of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time." I see his wisdom applying very well here.

R2B

That you think my statements constitute libel only proves that you don't understand the meaning of the word. Look it up.

I was not aware the data had been released. Where can I get a copy?

Is it available online?

Odds & Ends.....
 

I'm afraid she may have you here ITD. One of the elements the Director would need to clearly articulate in a Libel case would be proof that the accuser had enough credibility within the community to inflict harm. IMHO not sure if that would be the case here.....:confused:


If I may be of assistance, I think you answered this very question in an earlier post of yours:

Don't bother thanking me, just trying to help!;)

Skip

You already attempted to discredit it, and now it seems as though you have yet to see it. Very interesting indeed!!

BoaterEd is a club of people talking about boats, it's education is answering questions posted on the wesite. A worthy effort but hardly in the same class as BoatUS:

Since its founding in 1966, BoatUS has been the voice of recreational boat owners on Capitol Hill and before the federal agencies in Washington. With the strength of 650,000 members behind us, our mission has been to fight unfair federal taxes, fees and regulations that single out boat owners and to work with state agencies to promote boating laws that make sense.

I'm a member as well. If Les has an opinion on Winnipesaukee speed limits, why doesn't he log on here and make it known? Your out of context quote doesn't convince me.