I guess one question would be despite having a gas pump there, unless they are pumping a 100LL into the boats, they will need the infrastructure (ie: a separate fuel farm) to fuel the aircraft. Unless something has dramatically changed, I believe an aircraft would be very unhappy drinking anything but a 100LL.

Lets not forget, when I park my Turbine Beaver on floats out there, I will need a fuel farm for Jet-A too. :liplick:

The store owner and her pilot friend went to the town selectmen to ask to modify the town owned Union Wharf Pier. They wanted to cut down some pilings and even offered to do it themselves! The nerve! They never asked for permission
or offered to lease it. It’s almost like they thought they were entitled to use it. If they want to park the plane at their own gas dock, fine. I could care less. But I will mobilize all my resources to stop them from using the town pier. It’s not right. I am really starting to get a little tired of this store owner thinking they can throw their money around and block access to the docks. I and my friends will no longer shop there.

Whole thing seems like a dumb idea to me. Anyone with half a brain would come to the same conclusion, having planes and boats in a relatively confined area is an accident waiting to happen. The noise will not be welcomed - again if folks that are in the area complain of the noise that camp Belknap kids make this is going to be far louder and potentially offensive. Expecting or asking the town to make special docking accommodations for planes where there is no direct benefit to the town makes no sense.

Finally the store, hate to say it but the owners are screwed as they own a building, a postage stamp piece of property and have little to no control over their surroundings, not even the parking lot. That is and will always be a problem they cannot solve.

Add to the fact that they paid way too much for it and sunk another way too much amount in the renovation, the return on investment must be a 50 plus year schedule!
Oh it would have been so nice if Skelly’s went in there.

I'll play devil's advocate. I think the idea is pretty bad ass. Would be cool to have a seaplane business up this side of the lake. Operation of the seaplane itself shouldn't really have a direct impact on anyone boating as they still need to be cognizant of boaters out there. The noise comment has already been addressed in a previous post. Wharf seems like a reasonable spot but understand the frustrations of providing a spot here.

Most of these posts seem like NIMBY posts either (1) because they're not getting along with the new store owner due to other issues going on or (2) just not open to a new and fun local operation. Be concerned with safety all you want but there's inherent risk in almost everything we do. If you want to operate your life always considering worse case scenarios then I feel bad (especially since this sounds like a one plane operation). I have no dog in the fight but am local enough that I boat around there regularly and would never consider this a concern. Just throwing a different perspective out there.

I agree with you. (As I've said before, I have nothing to do with this seaplane business). Lakes Region Seaplane Tours operated for many years in Paugus Bay, which is exponentially busier than 19 Mile Bay no matter what the day or time of day. I'm not aware of any close calls or incidents between the seaplane and boaters during the entire time they operated in Paugus. Therefore, the "safety" argument is not based in reality. Some interesting reading can be found here:

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...lane_handbook/

Just plain silly
 

OMG!! They asked the Board of Selectmen ! The HOROR ! This obviously comes as a surprise, but if you want to do business or otherwise use town property for a picnic or a parade or anything else, you have to go through town officials. In this case, that's the BOS. So the seaplane operator did exactly what he was supposed to do. The BOS decided to plan a public hearing with notice to residents. They did exactly what they were supposed to do.
Being angry with either side for doing the proper thing is just plain silly.

Spot on! Could'nt have said it better. The Seaplane thing is just another idea to try to get people there and make the store prosper. Heck I want them to succeed but IMO its just a matter of time. Nothing has survived well for years there and now with less of a docking area and minimal parking the writing is on the wall. Keeping that place open in the winter is just going to net a loss. Not enuff business/people around for that.

They didn't just go to the selectmen, They got the state permit then they went to the selectmen in an obvious attempt to avoid going to public hearing which they know will not pass. Even one of the selectmen said to them it seems like you are doing this a bit underhanded. He also said it would have been better to come to them first. Thankfully our selectmen see through her entitled ways. Just because you have money, you do not make the rules.

I am not against the seaplanes, just using town owned property for her money making dreams.

this bay is everyones! Them asking the town for a sea plane dock spot, is like me asking the town for spot to leave my jet ski :laugh:. The madness that will happen during the winter with fisherman I can only imagine...it is the most popular bay during the winter months. Very dangerous for a runway.

Have to disagree. This is very different. What is being proposed (at least until the selectmen rightfully pointed out the problems with it) is a commercial use of part of the town wharf, without any compensation to the town, without putting it out to bid, and without addressing substantial liability issues if god forbid there was an accident. And that is before addressing the real practical issues of emergency vehicle access the selectmen are concerned about.

I would suggest that folks interested in this issue take the time to watch the YouTube video of the selectmen’s meeting where this was discussed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys

What struck me most was the blank check the store and plane operator wanted from the town, and without any actual plans or proposals in place. There was lots of bobbing and weaving around what it would be used for, and pushing to get the selectmen to approve it without any public input, even after the selectmen repeatedly raised the problems with doing so. There was discussion of things from seaplane festivals, to potential private charters dropping off area residents commuting from Boston or NYC, to individual planes coming for an ice cream, and countless other potential uses of the seaplane base. And most perplexing to me is that the store owner—who seems to have no aviation experience—would be the one that makes decisions about which planes can and can’t land and dock at the town wharf. We’re supposed to believe that the store is going to tell a plane coming to do business at the store not to land because the bay is too busy?

And as for the potential alternative of the store building additional dock area next to the gas pumps, it would be interesting to see actual plans for such a proposal. One would need to see the proximity to the boat slips and gas dock where boats gas up (not planes, at least not without installing a second fuel tank/pump, that almost certainly would not be permitted by the state), as there are unquestionably safety issues there. And then you have a state highway right there, and you can’t have wings of airplanes hanging over the highway. So lots of unanswered questions, and that is all, of course, before whatever state process would be required for the shoreland issues.

And while we’re on the discussion of the store adding additional dock space, if that is a real possibility, why the heck is the store trying to shake down the dock owners to use their private dock area for store customers if the store could just build their own additional docking area?

I have no vested interest in the area so I don't care either way just speaking from a position of logic and reasonable thinking here. I don't exactly know the location of the proposed landing area BUT if it is anywhere in the bay it just seems to small to be safe. Consider the entrance is not exactly huge, if anything it's a bit of a pinch point. Plane captains can be as safe as can be but think about the moron boaters who either are unaware or don't care a plane is on final and thinks they have the right of way. I'm not a pilot but I would imagine there is only so much that can be done to quickly react in a wave off situation.

If the landing strip is outside the bay with the planes taxi in that seems a little more safe, again think worst case scenario where a plane comes in and for whatever reason has a problem and crashes - how much open area is there free and clear of people, houses, boats, etc... to where no collateral damage is done, or is unlikely.

Ideally it would make sense to demark the landing area so at least boaters would be aware of the landing area. Not that all boaters understand the already existing markers on the lake just sayin.

Far as the dock and land situation it's a complete mess I can't see how well it would work trying to get planes into that town dock even if the town said OK. Seems like it's a liability nightmare to be honest. Now having them park along the shore\beach along 109 would make more sense to me but I don't know if that is possible. At least it would keep the planes and boats from getting mixed up and avoid a possible accident.

Frankly I can see it possible it could work but much thought would need to be given to the logistics.

Yes I agree I was just overly simplifying the comparison. Either scenario is ridiculous in my opinion.

Thank you for the video share. I combed through a portion of it, but here are my favorite quotes :laugh:

"this is a process, so I was just hoping that I can get your (town) help and just get going to not lose the season"
"you help me I help you"
"one way or another we are going to do it"

Sounds like entitlement to me. We all have to go through the process for a dock and no one deserves special treatment from the town. Especially a commercial business. Selectman need to kill this. Entertaining it is idiotic and disservice to the residents of tuftonboro

Now we all are seeing how entitled the store owner thinks she is. Watch video of the meeting very closely. Her comments are sickening. She thinks cus she overpaid for a store that will never return her investment it is somehow the town’s fault and the town owes this to her?

I'm here with my sailboat a couple of times a month, and I agree. I would would add wind speed and direction to the concerns you lay out--a complicating issue for both sailors and small planes that can often prevent both from going in the direction they would prefer. It's just too tight in there to add planes into the mix without a real problem.

Updating my previous post with more specifics, now that I've watched some of the video posted by CowTimes. The pilot consultant to the store owner says that that planes cannot land within 500' of land of 300' of a moving vessel. So obviously they are landing west of Chases Island, and looking for a landing area that is 200 yards across with zero boats. I don't know the length of the runway required, maybe SP can weigh in. But just based on width, I can't imagine a legal landing on a weekend in the summer.

The store owner reminds me of the Dive guys. Whether you like their initiatives or not, it's easy to see how they dream big but don't really think about the pesky details required for success.

This is covered by Title 14 CFR 91.119, and isn't specific to seaplanes. Here's some related information:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...g_Aircraft.pdf

http://c-spa.org/v2/uploads/SPA_Wate...y_Oct2010s.pdf

I heard the same description of the landing area. There is not enough room to land and take off with those measurements in 19 mile bay at anytime.. We do have had a seaplane land and take off along the north side of chase point. From Camp Belknap to the end of Chase Point. That is when there are no boats in sight. I just can't image any seaplane taking off or landing in that area. How did the state approve this petition? Who came out and measured or better yet observe the kind of boat traffic there are during the week and the weekends.

Any one concerned about the loons and baby chicks. The Farm Island development certainly got a lot of attention concerning loons nesting. This needs much more investigation and proof points.

Hello everyone!

We were just made aware of this thread on the forum and thought I would join in on the conversation.

I would like to address anyone’s concerns! Feel free to ask or PM me or just call! I hope to have a great discussion about these developments. However, I want to warn you, I come with logic and facts; emotion and hyperbole will not be entertained, sorry. I do realize that I can’t spell very well, I’m a pilot after all and am an expert in abbreviation and acronyms! I also realize that I can’t please everyone.

1) Right off the bat, I would like to address the false narrative that is being perpetuated that this is a proposal to establish a Seaplane Base with the town. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What is being proposed is the lowering of the dock posts on the North side of the town docks, at no cost to the town tax payers at all. Establishing a Seaplane Base is not something that the town can approve, that is done by the state and the FAA.

2) I would like to address some claims that this was done “under the radar”. These claims are also false. As someone stated, we went to the selectman! Isn’t this part of the process? It’s not as if we went out in the middle of the night and cut down dock posts. For anyone being critical can you please tell me the process and exactly where it is spelled out to have the dock posts lowered at the town dock? I need a checklist, I’m a pilot! There is a separate process that I followed to certify the landing area, but that has nothing to do with the town government. After following the state process this is when the dock post issue popped up so we came to the town. There are no secrets. Imagine if you needed a public hearing to take your boat to the town dock! There is technically no difference. This is about dock posts. Here is the state process that we followed. https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/aerorailt...step162017.pdf

This “landing area” certification is nothing more than the state giving their approval saying that it is safe to do so and they provided a process to get the certification. Is anyone here willing to say that the State of New Hampshire is wrong? Please bring this to our attention. The state approved the plan. We are sympathetic to anyone's emotional reaction but to make accusations that we didn’t follow the process is just not true. Making statements that this was done “under the radar” is not accurate.

3) All we want is safe equal access to the docks. Someone stated that the town dock is not a seaplane dock. This is not true. Although the dock was not specifically designed for seaplanes, it is a dock. If a boat can access the dock legally, so can a seaplane. A seaplane on the water must comply with the same regulations as a boat. The proposal is to lower the height of the dock posts. I’m not sure how anyone can say that this is ambiguous. Those posts serve zero purpose being that high. This will allow the tails of aircraft to be less of a concern at the dock, but to be very clear, the dock posts are only a minor obstruction and do not prevent aircraft from coming to the dock now, if the pilot was so inclined to, under the right weather conditions.

4) We are not scared or hiding from a public hearing at all! We want to have a healthy conversation and ensure that the community is happy, inclusive and not discriminating against anyone based on anything, like a poor vessel with wings! What I think is being confused is what the purpose of the public hearing is for. I do not believe the public hearing is to see if a vessel can come to the town dock, it is to see if the dock posts can be lowered. Again, imagine if you needed a public hearing to see if you can bring your boat to the town dock. This is the same thing. We simply want equal access. This isn’t about the plane coming in or going out this is about lowering the dock posts.

5) The concerns about blocking the dock for Fire and EMS were very legitimate. However, after further investigation and discussion the concerns were addressed. An aircraft at the dock would never be left unattended and could be moved at a moment’s notice, unlike some of the commercial barges that load and unload equipment at the docks regularly. A long conversation with the Fire Chief has taken place and I have answered questions to his satisfaction. In fact, I ask anyone skeptical about this subject please watch the video. Start at about the 46 minute mark. The Selectman pointed out that there is a “trash day” for islanders, where a dumpster is left on the pier so that islanders can bring their rubbish to dispose of. Can anyone think of a bigger obstruction to the fire boat than a dumpster left on the pier? In fact, just yesterday there was a huge furniture delivery vehicle blocking the pier and putting furniture onto a barge for some islanders. Certainly, an attended seaplane presents a significantly smaller obstacle to Fire and EMS services. We just ask for equal treatment and consideration.

6) Speaking of commercial barges! Do they pay the town to use the docks? If so, then any commercial operator would be expected to pay the same amount for sure! I grew up on Melody Island and know that many of the people who live out on the islands get serviced by the barges when they need work from contractors. I used to work on the Kitty Bell Barge. To anyone who lives on the islands, I ask, are you paying the town to have your contractors use the dock? If so, how much? We would be glad to go through the same equal process.

7) Noise! Have you ever heard the jet skis all day? Or the plentiful cigarette/offshore racing boats on the lake? A small seaplane has far less horsepower and less noise. How about a bunch of boats rafting up and playing music? We just want the same equal consideration. Again, this isn’t about seaplanes flying into the bay, this is about dock posts being lowered.

8) Traffic in the Bay? Aircraft must give way to boats while landing, until they are on the water, then they become a boat per the regulations (aside from speed and no wake exemptions). Keep in mind pilots are highly trained and go through annual physical and aircraft training on a regular basis. One step farther are tour operators. They are drug and alcohol tested as well as need to obtain certification from the FAA. Boaters are hardly held to the same standards. Pilots must adhere to much higher safety protocols than the boaters. This is some of the training that we go through. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjiXlKTCylg Also, there has been much discussion online about the distances aircraft must stay away from vessels. In the video I stated from memory 500’ and 300’. I would like to correct the record. It’s 500’ (FAR 91.119) and 150’ (NH boating rules). There is a clear “exception” and that is when taking off and landing. Obviously, an aircraft trying to land or take off cannot stay 500’ above the ground so they make exceptions. Please also reference FAR 91.115- right of way rules on water.

9) In the winter, if there isn’t a safe place to land then guess what will happen? Pilots will not land there. There is nothing stopping anyone from landing there now. I did this winter and it was a blast! Here is a video of my friend flying around the area on skis… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGkBQY02fkg

10) This area is rich in the history of seaplanes. In fact this last year was the 100th anniversary of having a seaplane base on Lake Winnipesaukee. I invite anyone to contact the Seaplane Pilots Association to find out more information. https://seaplanepilotsassociation.org/

11) I operate in and out of Mirror Lake now. I went through the legal process and we have a great relationship with the homeowners of the lake and were actually featured in the town newspaper last year! The people love it! I welcome anyone to come out and see us. https://www.tuftonboro.org/sites/g/f...nteractive.pdf

Again, this proposal to the town is merely to lower the dock posts on the North side of the town docks. This will allow small seaplanes to access the dock without any chance of hitting their tail on the posts. Nothing more and nothing less! All the emotion and fear needs to be toned down. We are open, honest and not afraid of any questions. We want to do this the correct way, with no corners cut at all. If that means that the Selectmen think there should be a public hearing then we welcome that! All we want is equal access. The North side of the town docks doesn’t get used by many boats anyway because it is so shallow. The town has a unique opportunity to become a transient stop for seaplanes! We hope that we have answered most of your questions and concerns and look forward to meeting everyone!

Fly Safe!

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Except that your "facts" are misleading, and your disdain for what you call emotion and hyperbole is insulting to those raising legitimate questions on noise and safety.

I don't have the energy to go point by point, but just taking this first and most obvious one--OK, so you do not need "to establish a Seaplane Base with the town", but apparently you do need for the town's cooperation to make your state approved Seaplane Base usable.

It is completely appropriate for the town to deny you any sort of leeway if they believe you are not acting in the best interest of the town.

I appreciate your reply. Your statement saying "we need the town", I would agree with, in that we are asking for the towns permission to lower the height of the dock posts.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Welcome
 

Welcome to the Forum and thank you for the concise and correct information.
Since you have been on Mirror Lake for some time, that should answer a lot of questions.

Good luck.

Agreed. And it should not be forgotten that the pier is a town dock, and the town can regulate its use. Just as the town prohibits overnight boat docking, the town could entirely preclude the use of the dock by seaplanes.

The town selectmen and residents have every right to be concerned about a seaplane base in 19 mile bay using the town docks There may not currently be a prohibition against the use of the dock for seaplanes, but that should not be confused with the apparent perception that there will be an unregulated entitlement to such use going forward, particularly after asking the town to permit modifications for such use.

Hey thanks! When I did this process for Mirror Lake we did not have a public hearing at all. Why? Because it wasn't required.

All we have done is followed this process. When the dock post issue came up we followed the process to propose that the dock posts be lowered. It's a simple as that. Nothing more and nothing less.

Incidentally, there are also approved landing areas in Winter Harbor and Alton Bay as well.

Please don't confuse this with a place that is legal for a plane to land. This certification is the state's approval to say that it safe by the state and then able to be listed in the directory and put on the charts.

A seaplane can land anywhere it is not prohibited to land and the pilot feels it is safe.

Thank you!Epic Seaplane Adventures

How many people do you know own seaplanes and are vying for that area and are looking to be "entitled"? I really don't see much "entitlement" here and quite frankly it seems like the owner is pretty open and transparent, now even engaging in a reasonable manner without a negative tone. Again, I don't have a dog in this fight but I think it would be cool to have up this side of the lake and quite frankly with the local NIMBY type responses being expressed here I tend to side hoping they get what they ask for. Opposition is fine, but opposition without merit and with a constant negative demeanor is everything that's wrong with our society nowadays.

I think we can all agree to that.

Just like the concerns about obstructing the dock have been brought up and commercial operations have been brought up.

What exactly are your concerns lowering the dock posts?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

You did not watch the same video I did. She comes off as she has a right to control the town dock and that she will get her way no matter what. A sea plane base is not needed here and would be dangerous. The bay is busy enough during the summer months and would provide 0 benefit to the town and frankly her store. She has no more right to the town dock then other citizens of Tuftonboro. If anyone wants to to go on a seaplane tour there are plenty of places around the lake. There is no need to take a town asset and give a commercial business private use of it. There is no need to cause more chaos in the summer and potential dangerous interactions with boats.

Also, the very people calling for the public hearing protesting to the lack of transparency should please post their names, in the spirit of transparency.

Thank you.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I think ESA makes good points although I do believe some are disingenuous. First he mentions he has established a base on Mirror Lake and has had no problems. He doesn’t mention that he uses his own private dock for his plane, not a public dock. My question would be, why doesn’t he run the sightseeing flights out of his base on Mirror Lake. Second he states that he followed the process to get the base approve. He did. However, he and the storeowner blindsided the town and the selectmen. Wouldn’t it have been more productive to go to the selectmen first, explain what he/they wanted to do and get input from the town on what their concerns might be?

I just think the whole approach was wrong. The base brings no benefit to the town that I can see. It may be a positive for the store but for who else? EPA, can you shed some light on this?


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

And you are using "Epic Seaplane Adventures".

Most residents of Tuftonboro do not want this. From this thread anyone that doesn't care "has no stake". Why should the town give a commercial business private use over a town asset? This seems like a useless tourist attraction for the town and for the town to help you expand your business. The only attraction we need is the lake. You also have failed to answer the rebuttal that the wings will overhang onto the dock preventing cars driving or people walking on the wharf. Your response for the sound these planes will generate is justified because there are jet skis and loud boats? Bad take. The solution isn't to throw planes into the mix and create even more noise pollution :laugh:

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

I love the idea of having a seaplane center/landing place/whatever you call it over there and hope it would help the store owners, etc.

Question, though: how often would the plane be taking up public dock space? There's only really space for a few boats there as it is, and my real only concern is that much of what's available might be lost.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

I like the idea of this business however the store owner should expand her own dock for it. She has said she is here for the long term so a delay in getting state permits should be no issue is true.

Great question. This came up with the Fire Chief as well. He was making the assumption that there was going to be a plane at the dock all the time. Imagining a carnival ride with a line forming. This is not the case.

All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system.

All this aside, commercial barges come and go from the pier all the time. Picking up and dropping off. As far as I know the town doesn't prohibit them or charge them a fee. We just would expect equal treatment.

Is it wrong to ask for the same equal treatment?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Regarding the barges they are not running a business from the wharf as you would be doing is the difference IMO. Your business use of the wharf will be determined by the residents of Tuftonboro if they want to allow this as it is their property.

Public information from the NH Secretary of State’s website. Not naming names, but for some publicly available information, go to:

https://sos.nh.gov/corporation-ucc-s...s-name-lookup/

Click on Quick Start.
Enter Epic Seaplane in the search box.
In search result, click on Epic Seaplane
Scroll down to Trade Name Owned By and click on the name shown.
Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on Filing History.
Click on business formation.

Residents have valid concerns about altering town property so that a commercial enterprise can be operated off a town wharf, reducing non-commercial public use, without any compensation to the town or opening it up for public bid. And that is before safety concerns.

There is an attempted narrative here that this is just about a few inches of wood on dock posts. It is much more than that. This as about an attempt to use public property for commercial use (both for the seaplane ride business and the store). While seaplanes may currently have every right to land on the lake with appropriate distances, etc, that doesn’t mean a seaplane operator has a right to use the town dock for a commercial purpose to run tours. The town and its residents have a valid interest here, and the town selectmen are properly concerned. For the same reason I can’t park my food truck on the wharf without a permit, etc, a charter/tour business can’t be run from a town dock. That is what the proponents are trying to disguise.

It is a very different discussion if this was being proposed off private property. It seems obvious that the desire to use the town dock is to avoid this expense. But the town and its residents have no obligation to subsidize the store or a new charter/tour business off town property.

That is why all of the self-serving platitudes about experience on Mirror Lake and private use are inapposite.

Could have not said it better myself, thank you.

Also, allow seaplanes to transit the area and have equal access to the dock by lowering the posts. We aren't suggesting making the dock a permanent place to keep any planes, just make it accessible.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?Epic Seaplane Adventures

What you're missing is that once you mention the following:

All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system.

then you make the transition from a seaplane owned by a private citizen who would like to stop at the town docks to run into the store into a commercial tour operator in the same way the M/S Mount Washington and her sister ships operate. CowTimes couldn't have said it any better, and you seem like a smart person, so I'm sure you see the difference and are just trying to minimize the ask in the eyes of the public with the "it's just a few posts that need lowering". I can't see the town opening itself up to the increased liability that comes from having an airplane charter service operating from their dock. It sounds like a great business idea, just something that needs to be run from a private dock.