OCDACTIVE,

It is much better this way.

If you want to frustrate your self, try teaching your puppy statistical probability, it will be just as fruitful.

Wrong: The difference: Murder was a problem that warranted a law. Murder was NOT something that just made people 'feel unsafe'.

Wrong: I impartially rounded BOTH numbers regardless of which side it supported and the result was clear. Do you have any idea how quick eight tenths of one second is? I do. And it would not make one bit of difference in any of your 'what if' fear situations. The laws that existed before the temporary speed limit prevented these situations.

Follow up question: When was the last time a child was run over at a high speed on Winni? [/Rhetorical]

And these are the guys (MP) who think we don't need a speed limit? Oh well, I'll pretty much leave the safety debate to those SL supporters who do a better job discussing the safety aspect; I'll concentrate on the noise/confusion/boats screaming by you only 150' away at those ungodly speeds. Glad I wasn't out on the lake that day described above. We sometimes joke that our family boating picnics on the lake would be more peaceful if we held them on the median strip of Rt. 93.:).

Interesting. I guess I don't have all copies of the transportation committee minutes regarding the SL. Since you have them to substantiate your claims, can you tell me the date of the minute? I can get it from my daughter's father in law who is on the committee.

MP boats sitting in a channel in 2008 really have nothing to do with the validity of the Speed Survey conducted in 2007.

Whether or not the supporters believe that the Department of Safety and the Marine Patrol willingly lied and tainted the results, the results reveal some very important factual data. Not the least of which is speed is not an issue on the lake.

If you really feel as though the Department of Safety and the Marine Patrol are just flat out liars and probably have NO CLUE about safety on the lake, then feel free to take the other side of the arguement. I'd prefer to have my rules and regulations created and enforced by experts, not those whose feelings are hurt by a loud boat.

Again, I do not own a GBFL.

Once again, let me spell it out for you, and all the legislators who are probably not even reading this. The incident in the link that you provided happened during a race (a sanctioned event, with race-boats, race officials, start/finish lines, etc) in the ocean.
A poker run...is not a sanctioned race.
Bass fisherman participating in a fishing tournament...is not a sanctioned race.
Performance boaters going from Braun Bay to somewhere else...is not a sanctioned race.

You are comparing apples to elephants and coming up amazingly short in your comparison.

Unfortunately this could happen on Lake Winni if we didn't have a speed limit:

"Not long after the start of the Lake Cumberland Poker Run tragedy struck as a boat flipped, killing one and injuring another.

The name of the boater was being withheld, pending notification of next-of-kin. He and his passenger were thrown from a boat Saturday about 10:30 a.m. and though others came to their aid quickly, the man identified by the other boater as the driver was unresponsive when pulled from the lake.

CPR was performed on the man, who was in his 40s and reportedly had several rooms booked at the Jamestown Resort. An ambulance arrived as the boat brought the driver to shore, and ambulance workers continued to try to resuscitate the man.

Coroner Larry Skaggs confirms the man was declared dead at the Russell County Hospital. The passenger in the boat was treated at the hospital and was conscious and able to answer questions earlier as he was being loaded into the ambulance.

According to the passenger and others who were at the scene, the boat the men were in swerved to avoid another boat during the Poker Run and on hitting that boat's wake, their fast boat "barrel rolled" landing upside down in the water.

Both men were reportedly thrown from the boat and since they were wearing life jackets they were both pulled about boats that came to their aid. The passenger told rescue workers at the scene that their boat was traveling at about 130 miles per hour when the incident occurred.

The poker run was halted after the incident, and was later canceled. The "cards" that decide the winner were drawn by participants back on the dock."

http://www.russellcounty.net/archive..._from=&ucat=3&

Hey ElChase...

You referring to that CORRUPT Politician Jim Ryan? You know the guy who at last update was sitting in jail?? The one that STOLE from campaign funds? Convicted FELON Jim Ryan? The same Jim Ryan that was rumored to have taken BRIBES??? I wonder if he took money from WinnFABS or their supporters?? Might be worth a look into his cooked books....

Seriously, if the MP study had come out and shown speed was an issue, WINNFABS would have been shouting from the rooftops! Certainly, a more serious scientific study was warranted they said... Thus the 2 year speed limit with a sunset clause was compromised upon!

Here we are 1 year into the "compromise" and the SL supporters are clamoring to make the law permanent! But why? SL supporters say its working however.... We know of few if any speeding tickets issued, and even less knowledge if any tickets were successfully prosecuted (fine paid/DMV notified of violation)

Lets wait for the results....

Woodsy

Yosemite...

That can happen anywhere people boat, and at speeds less than 45MPH. The reality is accidents like that are rare. There has NEVER been an accident like that on Lake Winnipesaukee.

I dont think you have boated on Lake Cumberland.... but I have! They dont have a 150' rule. Its just like boating on the ocean there! There is no minimum distance requirements between boats....

Woodsy

Let me take this one further.... Supporters always use Lake George with their 45 mph speed limit as a model for Lake Winnipesaukee's. This is actually where the 45 came from................... However did you know they do NOT have a safe passage rule of 150 ft?

Again this is why it is a REPETATIVE law.

Originally posted by Woodsy
Actually we were 64 DAYS into the boating season when State Representative James Pilliod, R-Belmont announced in the Laconia Daily Sun on August 3, 2009 that he was filing a bill to make the law permanent.

Of those 64 boating season days (counted from June 1) only 14 were what I consider boating days...days with no rain and at least 70 degrees! (according to the NWS)

So the speed limit supporters let the "compromise" work for 14 days and decided they wanted to change the rules, again!

And unfortunately, sometimes This Happens on lakes that already have speed limits.

Speed and Safety are not synonymous. Speed is also not an issue on Winni.
The solution is education and enforcement.

WOW

So that’s what it means to be taken out to the woodshed.

Nice posts Woodsy. :laugh:

I remember seeing a video of a real genuine Cigarette boat doing a partial roll, and ejecting the driver, at around 30 mph or so. Obviously not experienced or smart, he had no idea how to drive or turn a stepped hull boat, nor was he wearing a safety lanyard. The boat kept going and turning, and ran up on a breakwater. Proving nothing of course, except you need to be in control of your vessel at all times, and some training helps.

Many poker runs around the country have become pretty strict on their rules and regulations, including having the proper safety equipment. Those that don't adhere to the rules are thrown out. This trend is sweeping the nation, and will become far more prevalent before long.

In between the fringes of out of control cowboys that ruin things for everyone, and the knee-jerk reactionaries that throw silly laws at everything, there exists a much larger group of people that feel safety and common sense should be the norm. There will always be thrill-seekers that push the envelope too much, just as there will always be silly legislation that doesn't work.

Just as the cowboys need to be reigned in and have their keys taken away, the same holds true for legislators and their supporters that need to have their pens and mouthpieces taken away.

Fixed it for Ya:

Speed and Safety are not synonymous, but speed and race are . Speed is also not an issue on Winni. thanks to the SL law.
The solution is education and enforcement of the SL.

Posted by YS
Since you are claiming that speed is not an issue on Winnipesaukee BECAUSE OF THE SPEED LIMIT LAW then you wouldn't mind posting the last dozen or so speed releated incidents on Lake Winnipesaukee that you base you statement on, right?

Still waiting for my response...

How far away are these boats

Where are you on the lake(I dont mean where you live, I mean what part of the lake are you enjoying when you feel unsafe and uncomfortable from these Go Fast Boats)



Thank you,

Well no one else is going to point out how wrong you are then I will. I assume that you pulled the bolded text from whatever link you found and referenced. But if 1.5s was average human reaction time, we would see many more accidents in everyday life than we do.

Simple reaction time is the time required for an observer to respond to the presence of a stimulus. For example, a subject might be asked to press a button as soon as a light or sound appears. Mean RT is approximately 180-200 msec milliseconds to detect visual stimulus, and approximately 140-160 milliseconds to detect an auditory stimulus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time

Do not believe physics, try it for yourself http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/...time/stats.php
There is a link at the top of the page that will bring you to the test, you have to perform it 5 times before your score will be posted. Click Reaction Time in the first sentence.

If your reaction time is what you stated above, it is very clear why it is so hard to have a debate with you.

I wasn't far enough away.

I was somewhere between Alton Bay and Center Harbor.

Is this your version of an apology? Give me a straightforward "I'm sorry" apology for accusing me of being a poacher and I will be very gracious and never mention it again. But I have yet to see anything even remotely resembling an apology from you, so have nothing to accept. You can even do it in a PM if you are too embarrassed to post it.
1) A statistically reliable randomly conducted telephone poll showed NH citizens favoring a 45/25 MPH speed limit outnumber NH citizens opposing a 45/25 speed limit by a 9 to 1 margin with a +/-3% margin of error. These are the people who elected our legislators and will be voting again next fall.
2) There were 0 (zero) accidents on Lake Winnipesaukee last summer that could even be alleged to have been high-speed related.
3) With a speed limit in place and the MP monitoring boat speeds last summer, only 1 (one) boat was caught exceeding 45 MPH.
How are those for statistics? I am not one of those who wonder. I know. I tell it like it is and some people cannot deal with that. Sorry.
Sure it was. I never personally knew anyone that was murdered before Hartman. All the murders I heard of were anecdotal and second-hand. I had no personal experiences that caused a fear of murder and a support for laws against it. My recognition that murder laws are warranted fall completely from fear...from murders that happened in other states...some years ago. We do not need to be victims in an accident or participants in a near miss to recognize the need for safety laws. Yes, it's just over half the human reaction time. 2.3 seconds gives you 50% more reaction time that you need to make a change in course and avoid the kid. 1.45 seconds is not enough. Sometimes you just need to punt. this is one of those times for you. Just let it go. You blew it by opening this can. Walk away.[/QUOTE]
It was actually much much worse that this one post indicated. Look at the other posts about that event in the archives. It was incredible that day. But typical of the Poker Races that used to occur weekend after weekend in those days before the SL.
Please do. Why ask me to do your research if you have your own sources? I'll hold my breath for you to come back and tell us what you find. I am also holding my breath for that documentary you guys were making last summer and for Hazelnut's apology for saying I lied about your PM.
Once again, let me spell it out to you; There used to be races almost every weekend on our lake before the Speed Limit discouraged them. Numerous Poker Races with boats operating just like in this race were held on the lake each summer (see Forum Archive "A horde invades quiet waters" Posted By: 3gW Sunday, July 27, 2003 at 9:24 p.m.), and first thing Saturday and Sunday mornings you'd see and hear the bass boats all racing each other from the tourney starting points to the best fishing spots across the lake. In the afternoons, you'd see all the performance boaters, many looking and sounding just like these "race boats", racing each other from Braun Bay across the lake to get the best docks at the Naswa for an afternoon of boozing before getting back behind the helm. How did the lack of sanctioning of our races or the absence of MP oversight make them safer? This argument is not going too well for you either. You've got to know when to fold'em (K. Rogers).

And then there were nine. Yes, what a dog he was. A real scumbag. Makes me proud to be a Republican. I was never too impressed with the way he handled HB847 anyway. They clearly had the votes to pass the bill into a permanent law. Caving to the high-speed side with the 2-year provision was a mistake in my opinion. Had he been stronger, we would not be having this discussion today. The SL would already be permanent.
Of course they would have. If the anti-SL MP had conducted their "survey" and been unable to craft it in a way that slowed everyone down, and had to come back and say "As hard as we tried, we could not slow boaters down enough to say speeding is not a problem", of course Winnfabs would have been using that. I don't expect they are so stupid that they would have missed that opportunity. No, the opposers said that. Winnfabs pushed the original bill that was to be permanent. The 2-yr provision was put into the bill against their objections. The two year provision was crafted by the Marine Trades lobbyist who likely (and ingeniously I might add) saw that it created a legislative nightmare...an unavoidable gap in a law they intended to reconsider and renew without interruption before the two years were up. Reconfirming the law THIS SESSION corrects that mistake and ensures that a law that is working is not unintentionally interrupted. Imagine the uproar if the law gapped through the 2011 summer and another death occurred? Everyone would ask how we let that legislative loophole give window to behavior that our legislators had already overwhelmingly agreed did not belong on the lake. Exactly. Boaters slowed down as we predicted they would, because most people obey our laws. The Speed limit worked

Yes, and unfortunately we cannot guarantee that it will never happen again on Winnipesaukee even with our speed limit. There will still be occasional offenders, including several from your group, who ignore the law. But the speed limit is part of a package of safety laws that together make boating safer and more enjoyable for the most boaters. Certainly, accidents like this are LESS LIKELY on a speed limit lake than on a NO RULES lake.

Oh ya, I see that hit when I Google it too. Right after 26 hits and just before the next 50+ hits that all that say 1.5 seconds is the accepted standard reaction time. How does information get posted on wickipedia anyway?;) As I told Hazelnut when she challenged my grammar, if you look hard enough you can usually find something on the internet that supports any wrong information.


And again, I do not own a GBFL.

Thank you for reminding me why I stopped this nonsense debate before..
I am asking you a serious question and all I get in return is a wise ass comment??

Wow...
"those whose feelings are hurt by a loud boat"? That's the best spin I've seen regarding the noise issue yet, and quite frankly it speaks to why people will fight to keep their new law. The fact that you could trivialize a concern voiced by so many people as to why limits are needed and you feel you can boil the whole issue down to "those whose feelings are hurt by a loud boat" is amazing to me.
As has been previously noted, noise is part and parcel of the whole cowboy scenario so often noted by people on the lake and the media covering it. It has been a concern for those who manage the lake and depend on it for a living and who don't want tourism negatively affected. We have heard from forum members about ski boats who at 7 AM feel they can blast their expensive sound system for everyone in Winter Harbor to hear. We've heard about people who can hear GFBL's several miles inland on the hills overlooking the lake. You've heard from me today about people who can tear through a narrow channel at 11 at night (but 150' from shore) with a deafening roar waking up everyone on the shore. This is more than lack of common courtesy, it's a disturbance of the peace. And it doesn't "hurt anyone's feelings" but rather has galvanized people's support for a SL. Incidents like the one I described earlier have made many HATE, not dislike, certain boats or their drivers. We heard from a SL opposer this summer named SHREDDY who said he liked his bikes loud, liked his cars loud, liked his snow machine loud and liked his boat loud. He said something to the effect that he was proud of his toys and wanted to draw attention to them. He was quickly chastized by another SL opposer because this mentality is what is sometimes responsible for having landowners close their land to snow machines. He seems to have crawled away in shame because I have not seen any more posts from him on the SL threads.
In any case there are few SL opposers on this forum who clearly and sincerely love their boats and who seem to be quite respectful and concerned for how their actions might affect others. Should the SL remain, I will feel a certain sense of regret if not sadness for them, in part because a few mavericks like yourself who don't seem to get it have spoiled things for everyone. Hope I didn't "hurt your feelings".

If the problem is noise, then make rules about noise. Don't disguise feel good legislation in the name of safety and pinpoint a type of boat. Also, you cannot trivialize the role of the MP in this process.

Ryan, it IS about a particular type of boat!

He doesn't respond apparently with facts and data.. just enjoys stirring the pot...... I am still waiting as well.. Like I said you don't get anywhere responding to trouble makers or trolls.... For they are not looking for an actual discussion or debate....

Been tried, didn't work, even more difficult to enforce than some of your perceptions of how hard it would be to enforce the SL. " And the law would be ignored by drunks". So now we have a SL. As far as trivializing the MP, many of your SL persuasion have not only trivialized them, but outright bashed them over the past months over issues like the 150' rule and NWZ's. And again, hearing today's description of the poker run a few years ago makes me certain they are not the ones who should be weighing in with their expert opinions about the need for a SL.

Hey sunset.. just a heads up, I wasn't there (in VA) but pics of this years poker run were shown on winni.com. I haven't found the thread but I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong Rattlesnake Gal posted them) These poker runs (NOT RACES) earn a ton of money for Easter Seals and are not publicized ever as races or they would lose their insurance. Most run safety meetings and have very strict rules for captains regarding drinking and life jackets etc. I would even say most poker runs are 10 x safer due to how well the are run then a busy day on the lake. The reason why the Crowd of boats entered at the same time is in most poker runs the group "runs" together so they go from point to point. Others are set up so (like winni) so all the boats don't arrive in the same port of call all at the same time. Given you will get groups like this one being discussed but it isn't a safety hazard. Usually the MP clears the way for these groups because it is an organized event. They make sure that when "the group" arrives there aren't boats in the way etc. Now I wasn't part of the one in question but it was back from 2003. I don't think too many of us can comment on it as to exactly what happened unless you were actually there.. Just my 2 cents...

As you can see I get reved up when Poker "RUNS" come into question for they are a very successful way to raise money for needy charities and provide for a fun and SAFE time for all its participants. If a few want to treat it as a race then you can't blame the poker run.. I have seen plenty of non go fast boats racing while breaking many laws in the process but no one seems to get on them.

El, thank you for responding. I added the bold.

Did you take the test? Try it without you hand on your mouse.

El, it is also called a Citation, try it some time, this is the source of the quote or information that has been presented, this citation allows the reader to follow your information trail. That way they (the reader) can comprehend whether or not you made the information up.

Do you pilot your boat with your hand on or off the throttle? I have only ridden in a car with one person that hovered their left foot over the brake pedal while driving a car. I know I do not keep my foot over the brake while driving my vehicle. But I did always have a hand on the throttle of our boat while underway, I even keep my hands on my paddle while canoeing.

I’m not trying to be a wise a** but your questions are open ended and no matter where I was on the Lake and no matter how far away I say I was, someone will either say how do you know the distance, or GFB’s don’t hang out in that area etc. I don’t have pictures of where I was or exact dates that I saw them.
I boat a lot near Alton Bay, Wolfeboro Bay, Nineteen Mile Bay, Tuftonboro Neck, Center Harbor, Meredith, Rattlesnake Island etc. I belong to a kayaking club and we try hitting a different place each week.
I have seen GFB’s in all of these areas and they could have cared less that I was kayaking near them.
This year things have been better and maybe the SL law had something to do with it.

OCDATIVE, Please put me on your ignore list.

Looks like once again the truth and the facts hurt!

Well first its ocda"c"tive but that doesn't matter in the least.

I have no problem with your posts if you were to substantiate your thoughts. If it is a simple opinion than say it as such not "fact". Otherwise it is considered cut and run......

Also if you look back to post 579 you brought my personal activities into question. I answered them kindly and returned with a line of questions, which you ignored or didn't have the data to back yourself up. When you get called out for it and you have no answer, You ask to be ignored..?????? You "quoted" me.... ???? This is how one can get a label.

I never asked you to leave. You chose to, now you chose to return and I am happy you did for we need a level discussion. I won't get into flip flopping.

All I ask is that you address the post and not the poster and back your conclusions up with facts / data or just make sure people realize you are implying them as your personal opinions.

If the lake seemed better this year as you said in your last post it "could be due to the SL" I won't argue that. Many factors play a role on the lake Economy, Weather and I feel the least of all SL.

As supporters have said over and over it is the minority that has boats that can exceed 45. I disagree, but I hardly doubt these few in the minority made the lake a completely different atmosphere as many claim.

Speed Limits
 

I have been lurking for a while reading with some interest various posts. Most of them, while entertaining (e. g. the “restaurant wars”), have little impact on me personally. However, the current debate (that term is a generous description of the exchange of facts, views and opinions in this area) over speed limits prompts me to join and make at least one post.

I am not a “go fast boat” owner and do not intend to be, but I am adamantly in favor of having the current speed limit law cease to exist as of January 1, 2011, pursuant to its terms as enacted by our legislature and signed by our governor.

I have owned lakefront property on Winnipesaukee since 1983. I have 2 boats with engines, one of which is technically capable of exceeding 45 mph on a calm day with a clean hull and light load, three kayaks, one canoe and one rowboat, so that about covers the gamut of watercraft, other than personal water craft.

In all my 25 plus years of boating, swimming or otherwise being in or on the Lake, the only instances in which I have felt threatened by another boat occurred as a direct result of the other boat operator’s violation of the 150 foot rule or other basic navigation and right of way rules and these, quite frankly, often involved personal water craft. In no case was speed in excess of 45 mph involved and for that matter if the speed had been within that required for compliance under the 150 foot rule, then no such speed problem would have existed.

Simply put, the current speed limit law is a solution in search of a problem. Whether there are ulterior motives involved by proponents of the speed limit is a good question. Certain posts have implied that if “go fast boats” don’t like the law, they should leave (e. g. “I can understand why some people love the speed and sound of these powerful speed boats, but they have a time and place for them and Lake Winni is not one of them.”).

I am not naïve enough to believe that it is only the “supporters” who have an agenda. However, from the side of certain of the “supporters”, the diatribes, misinformation, misleading and inaccurate conclusions and the elevation of an alleged subjective feeling that the Lake is somehow “better”, “nicer”, “safer” or “calmer” to a positive, provable and demonstrable fact is most disturbing and often sinks to the level of pedantic drivel in my opinion.

When and if the legislature considers a proposal to introduce a new bill imposing speed limits on the Lake I certainly expect the House and Senate to consider only positive, provable and demonstrable facts relevant to Lake Winnipesaukee in the analysis. Based on my experience and knowledge, such facts do not exist except in the minds of certain people.

631 posts
 

We have 631 posts from maybe a dozen or two people, The situation is no more resolved now than it was at post number two. SO: Why does this continue? I am against the SL and I appreciate the people on my side who try to get their point across. It's time to shut this down. This is going nowhere. Trying to REASON with Liberals is FUTILE.

Anyone else feel this way..??? :look: NB

I promised myself I would stop responding to the elchase because he is clearly and idiot and his mother did not show him any attention as a child.

#1 I am a male as has been pointed out several times. So now what you are doing is simple name calling so I will do the same to you Mr. Village Idiot.

#2 Being the fool you are you continue to misuse punctuation with regard to quotations and continue to tell me that I am wrong.

Silly boy why don't you show everyone your resource. I believe it was Answerbucket or some ridiculous website like that? :emb:

As I said before sir "You are an idiot." Note the period appears inside the quote.

Here is a link from Purdue. Yes Purdue not some fly by night stupid resource you are accustomed to citing.
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/

You look more and more foolish with every post. We are enjoying watching you embarrass yourself. I really wonder if I would actually show my face in public if I were you as you might get laughed at. :laugh:

Sorry if I offended you with this post but turnabout is fair play as you continue to call me names, like a child. So I am stooping to your level.


Sunset, read el's previous post as reason why he "reaps what he sows." Again note the proper placement of the punctuation.

P.S. When you respond with the "I didn't know you were not a girl or I forgot." remember how much of an idiot you will look like. Everyone on here knew that I was male and you had been told several times. So if you want to confirm what we already knew about you please respond in kind.

I agree NoBozo, time to shut this nonsense down. There are other websites where this issue is being discussed in a civil manner.

I'm done reading idiotic posts that is for sure. Although it can be entertaining there has been no new insight lately. Just name calling from one person. Sorry to have offended any other readers I thought we were making progress. I had come to enjoy Sunset and Yosemite Sam. Unfortunately elchase has ruined it for everyone else. I swear if he was banned this place would be beyond civil. I really do enjoy debating this issue with most of the SL supporters, save for one.

NObody took the study seriously?

That's a serious charge to say that the MPs intended to delay the SL for one year.

If the night limit had been in force last June, a young lady would still be alive. That is, had Erika been impressed with the seriousness of her driving record receiving a violation against it.

While I agree most is nonsense.. If you notice it has come from one or two extreme posters.. If you look back when these posters were not constantly stirring this was a very civil conversation.

While it has gone down hill, there will be a new legisalative session where it is very important we discuss it here. That I believe is and has been a few posters agenda at all times. They hope the threads will be locked while they ram through the bill removing the sunset clause without discussion or notification.

I for one can use my ignore button until then. Less then one month away!. Stay tuned.

It sure can get intertaining at times and I guess kinda aggravating also. I am also sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't my intention to do that.

As NoBoza said: "The situation is no more resolved now than it was at post number two. SO: Why does this continue?"