It's going to be a funny few years. The economy sucked, and the weather was bad this year. Both Sunset (cute SN) :rolleye2:, and El, said the lake was shear delight this summer. They gave the SL credit. I don't know why, El has repeatedly scoffed at most of the laws on the lake, including the 150' rule.

Now picture this. They both start to get together with the WinnFabs crew, and stir up some debate regarding horsepower and boat size. Ahead of this, they've told everyone that the lake is a beautiful, safe place for everyone now. So what changed? Nothing. Nothing at all. They will wait until the economy and the weather conspire to bring back the boaters. Then, all of a sudden, the SL law is not enough, we need more.

There are only a couple of occupations I know where hypocrisy pays well. Politics, and Lawyers. These threads will serve as a great record, they already have.

Thank you DTM.... I am up for any discussion.. But that doesn't have to be the only reason for getting together either.

No matter what side of the coin we are on in this debate one thing that makes us all alike is our love for the lake. If we didn't care we wouldn't be bantering about it and joining a forum just to discuss it and how it is run. I think whether we agree or not we all want what is best for the lakes region.

That being said, I bet we all would have a great time together. Even if we don't agree on speed limits we all obviously enjoy conversing about them because we have been doing it for years. Lets put the names with faces. This way people may not be so quick to engage in personal attacks and such because you actually know who it is you are talking to.

While we all feel passionate about the speed limits we are all more passionate about the lake. So lets get together and see what happens. No personal attacks on people just a good time to get to know each other.

I don't think we are going to come away with the Geneva Convention but at least it is the first step to working together.

I'm in

DTM

Broadhopper

Who else? Can we get Sunset and BI???

I will also attend.

I am in. Hopefully we will be able to sled to the meet and greet!

looks like we already have a good group of people looking to meet and maybe get something accomplished:

OCD
Vita
Gtagrip
Dothemath
Broadhopper.

I hope Don may join us?? Anyone want to reach out to him? or maybe he will see this?

so far 5 opposers? Any supporters want to throw their hat in?

Just a Sugguestion
 

so who's going to man the metal detector at the door?:laugh:

That won't be needed.

Are concealed weapons OK? (Permit Required) I've got a blanket and a baseball bat. Is that OK?.......I'm concerned for my Safety. The EL-Man mentioned personal safety......... After all...that's what all this is all about..RIGHT..?? SAFETY. I'm all for Safety.


This is all Tongue in Cheek...................................RIGHT..??





:D :D :D

In
 

I already said I was in. I'd love to meet bear islander. I'm thinking that we'd all enjoy each others company. I am actually in Meredith tonight. Had a niceMeal at Giuseppes and I'm loving this cold night dreaming of snow and ice and sleds!!!!!

OK, a couple of you guys are starting to give me the creeps.

there is a neighbor of mine that is on winnfab .he said to me when they get speed limit threw they are going after boat that displaces five thousand gallons water. so what dose this mean 32ft boat and larger???????

Entitlement = Aggression = MOVE?
 

Even after 53 seasons on Lake Winnipesaukee, I am criticized with the words, "This isn't your lake".

I never, ever, thought of Lake Winnipesaukee as "my lake" until aggressive boaters tried to take it away!

:(


My first post to make it to this page?

they are joking around.... Seriously I hope you come.

OCD - you are correct, I was going for that, just wasn't explicit enough - but I totally agree!

And let's remember this is a public forum - we all KNOW it's being said in a tongue-and-cheek manner, but let's refrain from the jokes about metal detectors, LTC's etc... Again - adults here, let's act like 'em. ;)

So, we have a good number of opposer's ready to meet - let's get some supporters to sign up!? Bueller - anyone - Bueller!? Come one - come all - let's get a good, robust, dynamic group together and have a good "lake conversation" - about the lake and ALL that it encompasses. Aside of hazelnut (cuz we grew up together) I haven't met any of the rest of you. Probably have seen you around the lake, gas docks, restaurants, etc - but just didn't know it. It's been mentioned 100x, the common denominator here is... we all want a SAFE AND ENJOYABLE lake! So, how do we get there...?:)

Speed limits are just the beginning of a much larger agenda. Safety has been a rouse as the beginning reason to the movement against not only GFB but cruisers as well.

next measure will be to limit the overall size of the boat.

Give them an inch they take a mile!

Nice olive branch. And you wonder why none of the supporters are accepting the "invitation"? Give me a break. You can't pretend to be our buddy one post and then insult us two posts later and expect any of us to take the bait.
Have fun at the Winnilaker's convention.

Supporters, don't fall for this rouse (sic). Don't be our "Olympia Snowe". This is just the trick that enabled Pelosi to call the Health Care vote "bipartisan".
The purpose of this meeting is obvious and the desire to have at least one of us attend is even more obvious. Let them meet amongst themselves and come up with their own "scofflaw's compromise solution" and come to Concord saying "Our need-for-speed group has a compromise that solves everyone's issues...eliminate the speed limit and return to the mayhem that saw boaters killing each other year after year". Then see how it flies.

5000 gallons of water weighs 40,000 pounds..@ 8 pounds/gallon. That's a pretty big boat. Probably not many boats on the lake that weigh/displace that much. A 32 foot "Leadmine" keel sailboat might weigh/displace 15,000 pounds. The 32 foot sailboat I had years ago weighed/displaced 10,800 pounds. 50% of that was the lead keel. :look: NB

EDIT: The rule goes like this. "A floating object will displace an amount of water equal to its own weight."

Originally posted by Kracken
In 2008 there were 96,205 registered boats in NH
Whose fault is that? This thread is about the speed limit, the question you answered deals with the economic impact of boating in NH. Stick to the topics and stop being so insulting and maybe you'll get your posting priviledges back. So go other to that thread and tell us how chasing a class of boaters off the lake is going to help the economy.

I seriously and sincerely want some of you to remember the above 2 quotes the next time the SL supporters are accused of "fear mongering". Some opposers warned the lake's region economy would similarly crash and burn. (BTW Hazelnut, I do in fact feel a little ashamed of using you in a multiquote after you taught me how to do it...)
When SL supporters tell how civilized the lake seemed last summer, this is one argument we hear from the opposers. Actually half the summer was a washout. August and early September were beautiful. I know of a guy from Long Lake Maine who had a list of automobile moving violations a mile long. He seemed to feel laws in general didn't apply to him. We all know the rest of the story. I hope no one buys his boat, NO PATIENCE, and brings it to Winnipesaukee.

I think plenty of Supporters know by now what you're all about El, and whatever screen name you had before. You depend on the Us versus Them to survive. The minute a suggestion for a cordial gathering was posted, I knew exactly what tact you'd take. I have given you credit for being intelligent and articulate. But you view this topic as a lifelong occupation (is it?). No room for middle ground, no handshakes, no listening, no common courtesy.

I've found on many forums, particularly those that deal with politics, particularly aggressive posters use Doppels to carry on conversations with themselves, when others have pretty much stopped. For those that actually read the links I posted as a follow up on one of your crash links, they know. Three people tried to do damage control on that one. I must admit, APS let me down by his contribution.

You'll be delighted to know Ed, that I'm monitored much more harshly than yourself. Five posts a day are only possible sometimes. I've had content edited, deleted, or forever lost in the abis. I keep copies, so I do get to read them to figure out if they went over any lines. Absolutely none are as confrontational as yours, and I don't post lies. So perhaps you should thank Don for the privileges he gives you.

But alas, this won't be posted?

I believe the Winnfab target, once they get the SL wrapped up, will be boats displacing 5,000 pounds of water, not 5,000 gallons of water.

They do not want to come out and say boats weighing 5,000 pounds. They are smoking this new restriction with displacement of water. We all know if it is floating, it has displaced water equal to the weight.

For a reference, most boats of 28 feet in length weigh over 5,000 pounds!

Again folks, Winnfab's is not about safety. They are about exclusion. They use safety as smoke because it sells in Manchester where they have their surveys taken.

R2B

In his posting urging SL supporters to boycott an invitation to a meeting with opponents, elchase wrote:
It was Congressman Anh "Joseph" Cao, Republican of Louisiana that voted for health care in the HOUSE, where Nancy Pelosi is Speaker of the HOUSE.

Olympia Snowe is a US Senator and does not vote in the HOUSE!
Snowe voted in favor of the measure out of the Senate Finance Committee but says the vote does not mean she will support it when it goes to the Senate for a full vote.

Like other topics you have posted about on this board re: the speed limit, not quite accurate or relevant!

No worries sunset.


I just want to make one thing very very clear to you. I assumed you had some affiliation to winnfabs. It is clear to me now that you don't. You don't have to take my word for it, by your response I can see you haven't. Talk to one of their members. They are in fact, not on the record mind you, looking to target large cruisers and large horsepower vessels next. Search the forums. Bear Islander, an extremely knowledgeable person on the subject by the way, has confirmed this in prior posts. This is not fear mongering, I swear to you it is not. I understand why you would call it that as I now know you probably did not know the agendas of their membership. Can you see now why some of us with nothing to gain or lose in this battle do not want to concede this one?

I havn't thought about it long enough to know what I believe, the part about winnfabs wanting to get rid of big cruisers that is, but I find it extremely hard to believe that the level of public outrage against the cruisers would be feasable to get such a measure passed. You probably know my big issue with the GFBL's has been noise, more so possibly than speed. I think this is one area where the public has indeed been outraged, IMHO. Typically when a big cruiser cruises past where I live, people come out on the dock and say things like "I wonder how many bedrooms it has?" or "I bet it's got a nicer kitchen than the one in our home." Then the kids all jump in the water and ride the big waves with their long wavelength. Any thoughts about erosion are fleeting or non existant. Compare this to when a noisy GFBL goes by...this would be the gist of the conversation: "Those @#$%& noisy boats ruin any semblance of tranquility left on the lake. ", "What did you say, I can't hear a @#$%&* word you're saying?"
I probably will not attend the January meeting with you guys for a number of reasons (see future post...dinner guests are due here soon and my wife wants me to get off the computer and help). I received a very magnanimous and classy PM /invitation from one the SL opponents( I'm being serious, not my sometimes sarcastic self) regarding that meeting and other things. One reason why I would not attend is that I feel passionate enough about the topic before a couple of beers that I would probably not do the cause any good by discussing it after refreshments. I would more likely get together some time in the future for a couple of beers when the SL discussion is forbidden...get to know people's other passions and things we might all have in common(and to perhaps prove that SL supporters don't have horns, a spiked tail, and a spiked pitchfork...I'll take my hat off to prove the part about the horns, you'll have to take my word for it on the spiked tail). Gotta go, duty calls.

Sunset on the dock wrote:
One of the arguments I have read from some SL supporters that I never understood was the one in which they link fast boats with big wakes and erosion. A boat on plain makes a smaller wake than one plowing through the water like a cruiser. I have also heard reports that WinnFabs has another bill ready to go that would limit the size of boats on the lake, I don't know exactly what they are targeting but as someone pointed out very well, that is one of the big reasons that those of us who don't have a boat that can violate the speed limit are fighting so hard. Once that can is opened...

As far as High Performance boats being loud I agree and I think working toward allowing what they call a switchable exhaust in NH might go a long way toward solving that problem, but as I understand it the law prohibits a High Performance boat from having an exhaust that can be quited down. Something we can work on.

Even if you can't make the meeting (neither can I) keep in touch and I'll bet we can come to a meeting of the minds.

Very Good point airwaves.. anyone with any boating experience knows that the faster you go the less of a wake you throw. I don't know what I was traveling at.. Probably around 45 when this was shot. Please notice the size of the MINIMAL wake.

how does speed limits restrict the size of a wake? on thats right.. it doesn't. If anything it would increase erosion.

Sorry to hear you won't be able to make it. Seriously would be good to finally meet you in person.

So if noise is your greatest dislike of GFB would you help have switchable exhaust be allowed in the lakes region. I would have absolutely no problem making my boat more quiet. I don't need it loud in congested areas and frankly I too would like to hold conversations etc and not wake up my son from his nap (by the way I am within legal standards). But it is a shame that there are items out there that can be installed to make it quieter and we are not allowed to use them. I realize it becomes an issue of "enforcement" but so isn't the speed limits.. why let a few ruin it for everyone else? Those who are going to break the noise standards are going to break them regardless of whether there are laws or not. Why not allow the law abiding boater to install switchable exhaust.. Then the speed limits will not be needed and you get your quieter lake.. your thoughts sunset? (notice I said "sunset" APS LOL..we know where you stand already)

You know I thought the same thing as you, about the whole all of us getting together and having a few beers and the conversation getting all heated. Then I thought differently about it. I really think we are like minded people, most of us, and I wish you'd reconsider. Most of the guys I know on here are family guys with young children, like myself. We are the last people in the world you'd ever have to worry about getting into any altercation with, no matter what the subject matter. I look at this discussion like I would politics and religion. I have been in many heated debates with friends and I can tell you that I am passionate but not to the point that I would make it personal. I think we could have some laughs. I respect your position on not wanting to come but I really wish you would reconsider.

As for your point about Cruisers and the wakes and GFBL noisy boats I was laughing out loud when I read it, and not in the mocking sense at all. I was laughing because it struck me as so funny how differently we see things. It's all good though because it's what makes the world go around. It would be a pretty boring world if we all liked the same things. I was also laughing because the scenario you described is the exact (180 degrees in fact) opposite of what happens at my house, to a point. While I agree with you that I do not like super loud boats I do actually enjoy the ones that have through hull that aren't "straight pipes." Anyway, when the cruisers come by I stand on my dock and throw my arms up in disgust because 10 seconds later my boats are thrashing around at the dock slamming all around and the water splashes up on to the patio and knocks stuff over causing havoc. My (6 year old) twin boys will stand there with me and say "Daddy that boat is ridiclious" (spelling error intentional) they made up their own word. :laugh:
So you can see why I was laughing. We have such different perspectives on these things. I have absolutely ZERO patience for the big cruisers. Their wakes destroy everything in their paths. I am just waiting for the day a dock post snaps at my house because of the 7 foot swells left behind.


This next part is not directed at you Sunset:

The cruiser issue is one of those things that I just don't get. But going back to an earlier post I made, to each their own. Just because I don't understand why people have these things on a lake and just because these boats sometimes offend me (the whole huge waves wrecking my boats and dock) doesn't mean I am going to go on a crusade against them, as some have done here. I actually tolerate them because I know someone else is getting some enjoyment from it. Even though they cause me problems, I can actually put aside my feelings for someone other than me. It is not easy trust me. Sometimes I want to get in my boat and chase them down and scream bloody murder at them.

As I said about the GFBL boats earlier the Cruisers are part of the personality of the lake. People who visit love to look at them and are in awe of them just like the GFBL's. Some people have forgotten why they came to this lake.

Count Me In
 

I'm ready to come up to the Convention in January. A couple of my associates are interested in going as well. They don't have any interest in boats or speed limits but their enthusiasm can't be denied. What can I say to them? :look: How can I tell them not to come? ..........:D NB ("The Inocent")

I'm all for anything that makes the lake quieter; my concern is that of course were leaving it up to the individual as to when and where it's reasonable and prudent to use said switch. I live in an area where people tear by at high speeds and so far as I can see no boat going at these very fast speeds is able to be all that quiet. We've also heard from GFBL owners that these systems negatively impact performance. I do think the noise is half the problem regarding the lake's cowboy reputation.

Now this could turn into a scary scenario such that next year at this time Hazelnut is the head of a new organization called Cruiserfabs and I'm taunting him saying he's just trying to rid the lake of boats he doesn't like.:laugh:

I have an idea for a catchier name for my organization:

Ridicliousfabs, borrowed from my kids made up word. I will tell you it's the cutest thing when my twins will get my attention and say "Daddy, daddy look it's one of those Ridiclious boats." I used to try and correct them but it never really worked. They know the word Ridiculous but they still call those boats "ridiclious boats," the word just kind of stuck. :laugh:

I'd love to see Silent Choice be made legal on the lake. I think it would go a LONG way to making the lake quieter, contrary to what some people think.

Well you are right.. Silent choice or captains call (same thing for HP engines) can only be used under 2000 rpms. In other words ideling through channels, docks etc. But as far as going by your area on plain this wouldn't work. you would blow your engine. APS says there is a type that can be used all the time but I called a few friends who builds boats and engines. They said there isn't a switchable exhaust to do that. There are mufflers that can be switch manually but it would be the same as what I have on mine now. It would be the difference between straight hull exhaust and what is legal now. So unfortunately there isn't anything really to help your situation other then perhaps this summer I can pick you up and maybe you will suddenly learn to like them?? I know I know.. Big Stretch there.. but offer is still on the table.

here are my mufflers.. Cost me a fortune but I am legal and NO powerloss.

Because This Lake is "Special"?...and The Ocean is Not?
 

Because of the noise made by a politically-well-connected boat salesman, tailpipe-exhaust noise measurement on the lake was changed two years ago.

If Captain's Choice were to be allowed, the previous decibel level would have to be restored and the tailpipe-exhaust noise measurement returned to "drive-bys" measurement.

(Measuring noise at the dock has spawned a cottage industry to cheat on compliance with the tailpipe-exhaust noise standard). :(

The trouble with "drive-bys" is that boat speeds have gotten so fast, that "drive-by" measure for tailpipe-exhaust noise itself has been gradually disallowed by many law enforcement agencies—as a danger to themselves!

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...and those LEOs are in the Flatlands, where they won't ever hear The Loon—which, among other sounds, can echo and reecho softly among New Hampshire's lakes and mountains. :( :(
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Democratic Process
 

Seems like everyone has an agenda or two about boat owners on the lake. Boneheads, big cruisers, noise, speed, restrictive laws, erosion of shore front, erosion of rights, etc. etc. etc.

And the speed limit law at one time was a 'catch all' or 'just a start' hench, 'feel good'? The begining of a never ending bunch of 'feel good' laws?

The one thing that we are all concerned about is safety! And the worst offender of safe boating are the boneheads! Why not tackle that and nick the problem in the bud! Education and Enforcement are the foundation of boating safety.

By now, everyone should have taken the NH boater's course. One of the reason why the lake is safe despite the increase number of boaters. The biggest 'loophole' are the renters, who can rent without taking the course. A questionaire does not take the place of a course. Most insurance companies give a discount to those who have taken the USCG or Power Squadron course. I would highly reccomend that this should be mandatory requirement for driving a boat in NH. Save money too!

Enforcement? Well I'm sure everyone will agree that the NHMP does a heck of a job with what little manpower they have. A couple of years ago, Lt. Dunleavy mention at any one day, at the most, he would have 90 full time MP working. That number protect a 1,000 bodies of water and 10,000 miles of rivers and stream. A monumental task to be had. I hate to be the guy who has to assign which body of water and river or stream will be patrolled in any given day. And find out there is a fatal on unprotected water! :eek:

With the budget contstraint and economy today, I'm sure the marine patrol is working 'overtime and with more stress' than in the past. Just because we pay our boat registration does not mean the money goes to the marine patrol. All monies collected in the state goes into a general fund and the legislature determine who gets what. Marine Patrol has a low priority in this state.

What can we do?? Other than being 'good doobies' and stay out of trouble, we should be able to reccomend safe reasonable laws that won't tax the marine patrol. Give them laws 'with teeth' that will stand up in court. Not sure if putting up a 'Neighborhood watch' on the lake is doable, but we shouldn't have to take that approach.

Any lawyer will tell you that an arbitrary speed limit like the 45/25 is debatable in court. It can be argue that the excessive speed is reasonable and prudent. That term is vague and can be interpreted in many ways. That is why I am all for adding the USCG rules to replace the 45/25 clause. To give the marine patrol teeth and make it stand up in court. This will effect all boaters, not the 2% GFBL crowd. I'm all for the rest of the bill, the heavy fine, and putting the offense on your driver's record.

How about it folks? Can't we just knock heads and come up with a great compromise and help each other out and reel in the boneheads and cowboys? That is what democracy is about. We can do it! :patriot:

Wow!
 

ok, seriously - I can take it anymore... I've kept pretty much to myself on this 'til now but, El is totally off the reservation! Now he or she is working on "conspiracy theories"!? :rolleye2: Really!? How incredibly narrow-minded and neurotic can one person be!? Get out and see the world El, talk to people, see what life is all about - it's a big wonderful world out there - I've seen a lot of it, I know! Talk about manipulating the system and slinging propaganda - in all honesty El, just GIVE IT UP and go away!

I look at everyone else on this forum, hazelnut, OCD, BH, airwaves, sunset, sam, BI, et al... all of us have our opinions on the SL, noise ordinance, etc and yet we all have one thing in common. We all are passionate about the lake, we care about the lake and the people we share it with and we all want to keep it safe and enjoyable for generations to come! Somehow, everyone else has managed to acknowledge each-others differences and yet realized that is what makes us all individuals. Imagine how boring the world would be if we all believed in the same thing, drove the same car, ate the same foods, watched the same tv show... How mundane would life be!? (that was not a rhetorical question, btw...).

Honestly - at the end of the day, I don't care if you support a speed limit or not, I might not agree with you but I certainly don't dislike people over something as simple as an opinion. I love traveling and meeting new people, enjoying new cultures and traditions, it's what makes my life rich! I have made - and still have - some great friends, just by taking a chance on getting to know someone. If I don't like you, I'll just walk away - I'm certainly not going to "get into it" with someone over a difference of opinion - really!! Case-in-point, I have never met or directly spoken to OCD on this forum, but I offered to help him in the spring with his boat. Yeah, that means taking a day - or two, or whatever - and driving to wherever, giving up time that I might be doing something else with, to help someone I never met! Imagine that!? Is that insane of me to do that, what if he is a lunatic and kidnaps me and holds me for ransom!? I guess I'll take my chances - huhl!? ;):D Wait, he is a "cult member" too, I am just starting to put all this together now... oh my, what HAVE I gotten myself into!? :eek::laugh: (for those of you that need clarification, that was me being pretty sarcastic about the whole topic).

In any event, I'm still in for the initial meeting, and I hope everyone that is genuinely interested in meeting some GOOD, sane and rational people look to show up as well. I don't even care if we discuss the SL, just to avoid the first meeting from becoming possibly "contentious", or any other issues people might think to be a concern.

:eek:Yeah I'd definitely meet you for breakfast at the town docks, especially if it's OK to bring my little 10 year old guy...would like to see your new and improved boat. But no trying to convert the little guy to your GFBL persuasion:eek: . If he converted to GFBL we would be even more upset than if he married outside of his religion, race, political party or other generally accepted marriage partner:emb: (just kidding here, we're pretty open minded). We even worry that there may be GFBL teachers in his school that could be subtly trying to recruit him to be a GFBL. I guess we would also have to be careful not to get caught speeding...I can see the headlines in the Laconia Daily Sun now: "Avid Speed Limit and Winnfabs Supporter in GFBL that Gets Pulled Over For Speeding".:eek:

LMAO!!! I seriously just spit coffee on the screen.. sounds like a plan.. But only if I can bring my little guy along as well!

TOP TEN REASONS WHY IT MAY BE BETTER FOR SUNSET NOT TO ATTEND THE JANUARY MEETING AND WHY YOU MAY WELL BE BETTER OFF WITHOUT ME:

10) I'm passionate enough about the speed limit without 3 beers in my system.

9)Yes I could show up and not drink but run risk of making myself and all SL supporters look like dorks.

8) I tend to think of 45/25 as being the compromise...that won't go over very well or make me many friends at the meeting.

7) I find El's posts to be entertaining, especially when he picks up one of the grenades tossed in his direction and throws it back even before it has exploded.

6) I feel more of us should have come to EL's defense regarding issues like the illegal fishing thread and the rude comment about his religion and wayward priests.

5) You remember Sarah Palin's comment about Obama "pallin' around with terrorists". What if my picture were taken and I'm the only SL supporter in the group and the picture got published in the Union Leader...how could I face my friends and family?

4) When everybody is talking horsepower stats and such I may feel a little inadequate talking about my 15 HP 4 cycle Honda outboard.

3)While my wife never forbids anything, she did insist that I update the will before attending.:laugh:

2)What if some of you guys make fun of my Volvo wagon sitting next to all the pick-up trucks?

1) We named our Labrador Retriever "WINNFABS"...Winny for short(OK I just made that one up because I couldn't come up with another reason).

Nice looking kid but that pensive look on his face seems to be saying "Daddy, will you please take me out in a canoe?"