From what I can gather, BI is for speed limits AND restricting a certain kind of boat on the lake (having to do with hp). I'm sure if I'm wrong in these assumptions I'll be corrected.

You are correct. I support the speed limit legislation HB847 endorsed by WinnFABS. This is only a speed limit and does not target any kind of boat. A great number of boats can go more than 45 mph, not just GFBL's. And a huge number of boats can go over 25 mph, the nighttime limit.

As a separate matter I personally believe a horsepower limit is necessary and will come about someday (many years at a minimum). This certainly targets GFBL's as well as large cruisers.

"I" am targeting performance boats, the speed limit movement is not.

I though I was making this distinction clear, but it seems I was wrong.

Amazing Posts!???
 

I have to thank BI for keeping a level head and keeping to the facts without getting personal!!

Today, Islander posted:

"There is a theory that speed limit legislation was created as part of an underhanded scheme to eliminate one kind of boat. I believe this theory to be false."

But, back on 1/16/05, at 3:26 PM, Islander posted the following:

"This law does not require ANY enforcement!

When owners of boats that can go 90mph are looking for a lake to visit or dock their boat at they will NOT choose a lake with a 45mph speed limit. So no new fast boats will come to lake winni.

Some die hard owners of fast boats on the lake may stay. But year by year there will be fewer and fewer fast boats on the lake. All this without the Marine Patrol writing even one ticket.

There will be people that go 50 or 60 on the lake and get away with it. Just like people go 75 or 85 on RT93 and usually get away with it. But nobody goes 130 on RT 93 and nobody will be going 90 on the lake anymore.

If you read the article about the people that came up with this legislation you will find that they are already talking about horse power limits."

And on 1/18/05, at 4:44 PM, Islander posted the following:

"This is where these people are coming from! They want to blast by Eagle Island at 200 mph.

Notice that the generic name for these boats is "Offshore". Winni doesn't have anyplace that is offshore."

On a different note, on 1/14/05 at 3:27 PM Bear Lover posted the following:

"ITD

Your missing the point. A speed limit is not what the majority want. What they want is those "big, loud, gas guzzling, mine is bigger than yours" boats off of the lake. A speed limit is what they will use as the way to do it. Nobody is going to spend a small fortune to keep a muscle boat on a lake with a 45 mph limit.

And after the speed limit passes they will want a horse power limit, or some other method, to get the cabin cruisers off the lake.

If you really think it can't happen read the list of NH lakes with speed and or horsepower limits. It's about 1 in 3."

Gee, Islander, I wonder why some of us formed a theory that "speed limit legislation was created as part of an underhanded scheme to eliminate one kind of boat"? Could it possibly have been based upon postings by some of the speed limit proponents? :rolleye2: I'm sure that, if you would like additional evidence supporting the above theory, I could retrieve and paste dozens of similar posts.....

Silver Duck

Duh!!!
 

If that really was the number one agenda don't you think that they would have started with horsepower? This is such a stupid argument.

If 22 people were killed on the lake next year by boats going faster than 60 MPH you folks would still argue that it was not the speed that did it. Get a grip on reality folks. Slower is safer and the MAJORITY want it! DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Funny, being that the list of opponents published (and posted on this site) is larger than the list of proponents... DUH!!!!!!!!!!! And honestly, how do you know that the intent ISN'T to ban performance boats? Seems rather odd to me that this originated from Bear Island, the sample place that a certain individual lived that passed away at the hands of a DRUNK, NON SPEEDING (sorry, and estimated 3mph variance is not excessive) GFBL/driver?


DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?????????? Even my eight year old uses more witty remarks than that...

Let the speed limit come. Next time someone dies at the hands of a boater doing less than the speed limit what will the argument be then?? Ban them all? For the record, more people have died in non-powered accidents in the last few years on the lake than at the hands of any boater. Multiple drownings and someone falling off the Mount. Let's ban swimming off boats to start. Wasn't it two in the same weekend???

You can't fix stupid...

I was not involved in any way with creating the speed limit legislation. I know Bear Lover wasn't either. There goes that argument.

I guess your theory is we are lying about the real reason for speed limits. Can you please explain why. Why do we lie, if it were true why would we not say so? We have no reason to lie.

You get a grip and you will probably find the common denomintor is
A L C O H O L regardless of speed and/or speed limit or lack thereof.


And JDeere , being the owner of a "performance boat" I consider this and attack from BI.

Alcohol abuse is already against the law. Excessive speed is not.

US Coast Guard - KNOWN ACCIDENT CONTRIBUTING FACTORS 2006
OPERATOR CONTROLLABLE
Operator Inattention ...............611
Careless/Reckless Operation .....517
Excessive Speed ....................464
Passenger/Skier Behavior .........390
No Proper Lookout ..................368
Operator Inexperience .............356
Alcohol Use ...........................351

From Coast Guard statistics http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...stics_2006.pdf

More accidents are attributed to excessive speed than alcohol. It is also interesting to note that the only major factor not already addressed by law is excessive speed.

Sorry if the facts from the US Coast Guard mess up a good theory.

Excessive speed is relative to condition
 

What good theory is that? Excessive speed means what? Surely not some number!

I was guilty of excessive speed last time I dinged my prop on a rock. Had I been going 20 rather than 25 MPH, I might have stopped in time once I saw the rock. On our lake, we have a lot more accidents involving alcohol abuse than speeds over 45. Excessive speed is a relative issue, based on boat type, weather, sea and traffic. Encouraging the MP to stop people for traveling over 45 when conditions would allow it, threating them with fines and suspended licenses is what we're fighting.

Islander

What part of "A speed limit is not what the majority want. What they want is those "big, loud, gas guzzling, mine is bigger than yours" boats off of the lake. A speed limit is what they will use as the way to do it" is so unclear that I could possibly misunderstand it?

Whether or not you and/or Bear Lover were involved with creating the speed limit legislation, you are both, as I stated, "proponents" of that legislation. With proponents singing that tune, I must, in good conscience, oppose it!

In addition, I strongly feel that a "one size fits all" speed limit of 45 mph is far too fast in certain areas of the lake (e.g., the channel between Meredith Neck and Bear Island, the stretch between Eagle Island and the Weirs) at busy times! Since other proponents have opined that operating in a reckless manner is not a tool that the MP can use to curb excessive speed, my feeling is that the speed limit, as curently written, will only serve to legitimize going through those kinds of areas during crowded times at what to me seems an excessive rate of speed.

Silver Duck

I have also been accused on this forum of supporting the speed limit because my goat is to rid the lake of a certain type of boat - which is not at all true.

Is it possible that this may in fact be the goal of some speed limit supporter? Yes, of course that is possible. But I seriously doubt that many have this as a goal.

I don't support that goal, but that doesn't mean that I should give up my support of a bill that I believe in. I was at the State House long enough to see that many bills are supported (and opposed) for both good and bad reasons.

Now that's just silly, and the writing in the bill is clear about what it permits. A speed limit is the maximum speed that a boat may travel- not the permissible speed for all conditions. Here's text from HB 847:

Seems pretty clear to me. A speed limit is an addition tool for safer boating - it does not replace all the other boating laws.

DUCKing the Question??????
 

Silver Duck

Please post a reason why we would lie about the origins of speed limits, or stop making the accusation!

You are correct but at least you can slow them down! How you folks argue that it is your right to do whatever you want is just outright absurd.

I have no problem with your opinion regarding my comments. Freedom of speech is part of the Bill-of-Rights.

I react to what I read and I could care less that I have never met BI. I absolutely respect everyone who has served this country, but as one who spent significant time in Viet Nam, I do not think that gives me any special treatment or special rights. I also spend significant time in my retirement with the Special Olypics and Make a Wish Foundation. Again, I expect no special treatment from that either. I do not know why you seem to think BI should be treated special for what he has done of the country or for those less fortunate. I thank BI for his contribution, but I see no need for special treatment.

I have a huge problem with someone, in this case BI, who openly admits they are out to remove certain kinds of boats from the lake. Go and support your cause for whatever your reason, but when someone tells everyone on the forum that he is out to remove a certain kind of boat from the lake, then it is time to speak up in support of freedom. There is far too much "spin" that the speed limit proponents continue to place on this subject. I am sure it is a designed tactic.

Islander, please refrain from sending me negative personal messages in the future. If you have something to say to me or about others be it positive or negative, say it where everyone can read it. You are the one making things personal through your use of this site's personal message feature. All future personal messages from you will now go directly to my junk mail folder.

R2B

R2B

I am sorry but I think you are confused. I never suggested any "special treatment" You posted this in your bash against BI.

"I, for one, have fought for our government on foreign lands for this freedom."

You see it was you that brought up the subject of service. Does only YOUR service apply?

He is not trying to remove any boat or type of boat from the lake. Another mistake you have made. His idea was to prohibit boats of a certain horsepower made after a future date. That would allow all current boats to stay on the lake and only limit bringing in new ones.

Why is it Un-American to want a horsepower limit anyway. If a citizen truly believes that is the answer what should they do? Hide their beliefs? Freedom is the right to voice what you believe in even if other people don't like it.

If you follow this link you will find a very long list of New Hampshire lakes and ponds that have speed limits, horsepower limits or ban powerboats altogether. There is nothing new, unusual or Un-American about horsepower limits.

http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/s...estricted.html

Your posts are, in my opinion, a personal bash that are against the rules of this forum.

Please post it for us all to enjoy :D

I have covered this one many times before, I'd be happy to direct you to the links if you'd like. The bulk of the bodies of water in NH are limited due to their sheer size! Try putting a 25 foot boat in Milton 3 Ponds for instance... 110 acres of water. Winnipesaukee is over 6 times the size of the second largest lake and considerably deeper. From there, there is only a few that are 3000+ acres and below that it drops even faster.

How many other lakes in NH could accomodate the Mount? The Sophie C? the Doris E? You don't anything like those on Squam...

As a separate matter I personally believe a horsepower limit is necessary and will come about someday (many years at a minimum). This certainly targets GFBL's as well as large cruisers.


Seems pretty clear to me that you are incorrect on that one Islander. BI made it pretty obvious of his stand there.

BS. You know darn well the EXCESS SPEED can also be 10mph while docking or 25 mph in bad conditions but DON"T mention that. You keep digging yourself into a pit of deception with your statements. Keep up the good work:laugh::laugh:

Existing rules suffice
 

JD, I think you are missing the point of the argument. Are you calling going 60 MPH in a bass boat, on a calm uncrowded day absurd? This rule attempts to define what is proper for the whole lake, all the time and under all conditions. Yes, let the captain do what they want, within the limits conditions define. That is called freedom. Existing laws can deal with the captain bonehead who gets it wrong. How is that absurd?

Those who use the lake on the weekend, should not dictate rules that impact others when they are not around. That is absurd. Nobody is claiming its their right to do what ever they want, only their right to safely enjoy speed when the conditions are right.

LG,

I use to spend a lot of time fishing on the lake. I grew tired of getting buzzed by some of the speedier boats on the lake. I hvae had too many close calls or maybe to close for comfort situations with boats going IMHO too fast. Again IMHO if those boats were traveling SLOWER thier Captain would still be a bone head BUT at least I will have more time to react.

So, yes I think a bass boat going 60 MPH is too fast.

Two Questions...
 

Though speed has claimed as many as 6 unrelated boaters at once—inside a cruiser, btw—I find the ocean-racer crash that claimed three brothers off your NJ coast especially disturbing.

1) Was it A L C O H O L that claimed those brothers? :rolleye1:

2) If they could, what would those brothers advise us today about keeping the thrills of excess speed "in the family"?

??? :confused: ???

But 22 people have NOT been killed on the lake. Not last year, and not any year before that. The last time someone was killed by a boat going faster than 60 was...when??
I know what you will say next...a speed limit will prevent 22 people from being killed by boats faster than 60. Of course it will. Riiiight.
Fear mongering at its finest. Let's solve a problem that does NOT exist.

Ya, how dare us try to fight for what we believe in. We are horrible, horrible people.

You are wrong codeman. That quote is totally accurate. I have been posting my position on this for a long time. Obviously I don't post the entire proposal every time I refer to it.

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...5784#post55784

Your post was right after mine, you must have read it back then.

I posted YOUR OWN quote from yesterday where you clearly stated "I am targeting performance boats". You wrote it yourself. How is that wrong? Seems quite clear to me. You don't have to go that far back to see.

I was arguing Islanders post, not yours. Islander stated that you were not targeting any particular type of boat.

Again, tell me how my post was wrong???

You were wrong because you know my belief very well. Take a look at these past posts of yours. You are even telling other people about my proposal.


http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...2008#post62728

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...2008#post67118

My quote that "I" am targeting high performance boats was to explain that the speed limit movement is not targeting them, just me.

I am only targeting ones manufactured after 2008. Sorry if that was not clear. I have not changed my views or tried to hide them.

Rather than continue to quibble, argue about peoples intentions, etc let's try to put some fixes in place ourselves.

If safety around the camps on the lake is one of the true concerns that people have that are driving a speed limit, why not push for a safety zone around the camps? I don't mean this as an attempt at a speed limit compromise as I don't see any chance of that, but why not put a sincere effort towards fixing this portion of the problem? This could be solved at the MP level.

Coming past Cattle Landing and turning towards Mark the channel between Mark and Bear is very narrow, probably more so than between others that are already NWZ's. The bay between Mark and Camp Lawrence is a heavily traveled area for watersports, especially by the camps. Putting a NWZ in at the end of Mark, just a short one on such a bad corner, would slow people down, cut down on wake damage, and make it a safer area for all?

I think a short NWZ coupled with a warning marker near the end of Bear warning of a reduced speed or caution zone would help. I would not want to see the whole area go NWZ as many people enjoy it for watersports, but just slowing the traffic or possibly diverting it elsewhere may help.

Sure, I do live in that area and it would help us as well, but if safety near the Camps is one of the true issues, lets work together to try to fix it on a local level.

Any thoughts?

Yeah - Brewster - and I have an MBA from Wharton - ok, so now we've got the edu. background out of the way... So - let me ask, was your tunnel-hull racer bigger than 1/12th scale? I'm not talking models - I'm talking the real deal. And if it was a "tunnel-hull racer" as you refer to it, I'm also not referring to the ones with a 15hp. outboard on it that's 10' long. I'm talking a full sized, I'm-really-all-grown-up-now performance boat, Skater, Cigarette, Outerlimits... that kind of performance boat. Your past posts read a bit differently than if you had real experience with what I am referring to and what you are so freely bashing. Come on - let's get it out there and see what you've got to offer in the way of REAL experience that can support your stance.

Oh, and how about Poker Runs, how many have you participated in!? Rough numbers will be fine :o)

Interesting idea. There could be "camp zones" similar to the school zones we have on our roads. I would certainly be in favor.

There would be resistance in some areas. There are a lot of camps that would like protection. Then what about public beaches, association beaches etc.

Some camps may be in areas that are high traffic, difficult to set up a zone without impeding navigation.

I would be in favor of a "Camp Zone" just like a school zone.

Monday - Friday 8am-7pm or something to that effect, put up a 500-1000 foot zone no wake/no travel zone? I don't know it aint a perfect idea but it is a start. As for associations and town beaches they would not fall into the same category in my opinion. Special regard for schools and camps yes.

I would think weekends should be included if safety is the issue, this is when the bulk of the traffic is present. There is not that many camps on the lake so I don't think it would impede on many spots.

My thoughts on that were that camps could have more area maybe even 1000 feet plus strictly enforced during the week. On the weekends camps could curtail open water activities in favor of activities within the immediate vicinity of the shore/beach area.

Will the camp be paying the MP to sit there in his boat and enforce this? Some thoughts??

Nope, look at it just like a cop might stake out a school zone.

As far as notifying boaters perhaps the marine patrol could give the camps rights to put out temporary No Wake buoys each day as needed?

Works for me!
 

I think that Camp Zones are a fine idea, whether or not the speed limit is enacted!

Could this be done by the MP administratively, or would legislation be needed to create a new category of zone?

Silver Duck

Evenstar

I, for one, have never numbered you among the "run 'em off the lake" set.

However, I think that you're a bit optimistic about Captain Bonehead's idea of "reasonable and prudent under the existing conditions" being anything less than the posted maximum.

For instance, over the last six seasons, I've spent many nights sitting in the cockpit of my cruiser (inside the enclosure, of course) on pitch dark and rainy nights, with visibility maybe 100 ft, at best. (The only reason I'd have left my slip on some of those nights was if the dock was on fire!)

Yet, I can't even begin to count the number of times I've seen boats leave the public docks and come up on plane before they even reach the no wake markers. Definitely not reasonable and prudent behavior by my standards.

The 60 year old cynic in me keeps telling me that "reasonable and prudent" seems to be in short supply with some folks. I don't much like it, but I suspect that Captain B is going to adopt 45 mph as reasonable and prudent by definition (until he hits something or somebody, and the MP can hang a violation of subparagraph A on him.)

But, I do hope that you're right, and I'm being too pessimistic. Time will tell.

Silver Duck

Not "Ducking" the Question
 

Islander

Since, as you say (and I'll accept your word on it) neither you nor Bear Lover were "involved in any way with creating the speed limit legislation", why should I accept your theory on the reasons behind the legislation over my own (which is shared by a number of other forum members)?

I'm not calling you a liar, I merely feel that my view of the reasons behind the speed limit is correct and your isn't. I rather doubt that either of us has any possibility of convincing the other.

By the way, excellent pun!

Silver Duck

Absurd? Are you sure you are in the right country?

From Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: lib·er·ty
...
1: the quality or state of being free: a: the power to do as one pleases b: freedom from physical restraint c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e: the power of choice
...
synonyms see freedom
...

Now of course "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins" acording to Holmes. But you want us to stop even when there are no noses.

A very good idea but as you point out it probably wouldn't be offered as a compromise on the speed limit issue, although it might sway some in the NH Senate if it were offered to them.

I would think that if a violation of the 150' law is a problem around these camps they could probably petition the Dept of Safety to get the no wake/no boat zone increased administratively just as waterfront property owners can petition for no rafting zones.

The slippery slope here is if a couple of camps can do it more will follow, then various 'associations' etc etc.