ABCC On Fire

[Gearhead]

I've just got word that the Alton Bay Conference Center is on fire. Please pray for those involved!

[wifi]

Yes, it went to a 3rd alarm. I haven't heard is any people involved

[Lin]

My husband says 9 alarms on the pager now. According to NECN it started from a brush fire?

[Skip]

Between the "duhs" and the "umms", Channel 9 is attempting, albeit it not very good, to cover the fire in the opening moments of their 6 pm newscast.

[EricP]

Between the "duhs" and the "umms", Channel 9 is attempting, albeit it not very good, to cover the fire in the opening moments of their 6 pm newscast.

Nothing new there! :laugh:

It appears from some of the photos they have put up that more than 1 house is involved. I hope noone got hurt.

[Sunset Bob]

Caught on Downings Landing webcam

[wifi]

My husband says 9 alarms on the pager now. According to NECN it started from a brush fire?

Hmmm... in all my years dispatching for LRFMA, there was never more than 4 alarms, with the exception of the dispatchers disrection. Not doubting what your husband heard, as times have drastically changed, it sounds really bad. I wish them all the best.

[EricP]

Channel 9 reported 7 alarms, 9 is possible by now.

[This'nThat]

Caught on Downings Landing webcam
Thanks. Electricity & cable are down in Alton Bay now, including the web cams, apparently. Good that you caught this before the power lines melted.

[eillac@dow]

I just copied this off the Channel 9 website....scary...as many as 6 or 7 buildings!


By 5:15 p.m., crews called for seven alarms. Within minutes, an eighth and ninth alarm were called. Raymond fire crews told News 9 that heavy flames emanated from as many as six or seven buildings.

The fire prompted officials to close westbound Route 11 from Gilford to Alton. Calls initially came in as a brush fire before it quickly escalated.

It was not immediately reported whether anyone was inside.

[Slickcraft]

Photos taken 5:10 to 5:30; we were on our way from West Alton to Johnsons, never made it past across from Pop's.
Very tragic, scary. Saw whole buildings explode. Looks like it will consume structures 'till all fuel is gone. Whole buildings were consumed in matter of min.

No power here as all the power lines had burned.

[eillac@dow]

I just checked the WMUR web site again, and here is the story they have posted now. It is essentially the same story that I posted a short time ago, except now they say "52 Homes in the area on fire" This is just terrible. What a shame. I hope all are safe.


By 5:15 p.m., crews called for seven alarms. Within minutes, an eighth and ninth alarm were called. Raymond fire crews told News 9 that heavy flames emanated from as many as six or seven buildings.

The fire prompted officials to close westbound Route 11 from Gilford to Alton. Calls initially came in as a brush fire before it quickly escalated.

The town's deputy fire chief reports there are 52 homes in the area on fire and all of the homes could be a total loss.

It was not immediately reported whether anyone was inside.

[nicole]

This is unbelievable! I am praying for all residents and firefighters involved.

[tis]

Wow, slick, those are fabulous pictures! THanks so much for posting them. I feel so bad. That is terrible! THat happened years and years ago. (another bad fire there)

[EricP]

This sounds like it got really bad really fast. I hope everyone is safe including those fighting these fires.

[mcdude]

Photos taken 5:10 to 5:30;

Amazing photos. What a loss. They last suffered a great fire in August of 1945.
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopost/data/15014/medium/campgroundfire1945.jpg
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopost/data/15032/medium/20scanCGnewspaperarticles.jpg
See more details on THIS THREAD (http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1696)

[Keith]

I just heard 10 more towns called in for manpower.

[Orion]

Seems like a very fire-prone area. That makes at least 4 major fires around that end of the bay.....3 in the last 10 years.

[Argie's Wife]

Drove by the Bay moments ago coming home from Easter dinner and there was still buildings burning. I heard a report from a friend that JP China had caught fire and who knows what other businesses....

My heart breaks for the families who lost their cottage, summer income rental and those who lost their businesses. Certainly in that number of buildings (last count 52) that burned today there had to be some homes. I can't imagine the loss today. How tragic. :(

[martbri7]

Just saw wmur.com and noticed 40 homes on fire and one injured fire fighter updated at 9:30pm yikes....we need rain now!!!

[nj2nh]

NECN is reporting that several businesses burned. Does anyone know what those businesses were? Shibley's? The new mini-golf?

Here is the link:

http://www.necn.com/Boston/New-England/2009/04/12/9alarm-fire-claims-NH/1239582072.html

nj2nh

[Argie's Wife]

Got word at about 9:30 the fire was contained. I'm hearing several fire trucks and other emergency vehicles headed back to their towns as they pass by my home.

This was an 11-alarm fire. I've never heard of such a thing. The support from the neighboring towns was amazing and I'm thankful for their help.

On another local forum I haunt there's folks posting who owned cottages in that area. Some were not insured but the cottage had been in the family for a long time. So sad. :(

[EricP]

I am glad to hear it's contained

[SteveA]

On another local forum I haunt there's folks posting who owned cottages in that area. Some were not insured but the cottage had been in the family for a long time. So sad. :(

A family member just called to tell us that many of the structures in the campground could not be insured due to a number of problems including limited access and roadways for fire equipment.

It's all very sad. I hope the fireman that was injured is OK, and no other injuries happened.

It does seem that Alton has had a unusual number of fires over the last several years.

[shoppes on the bay]

NECN is reporting that several businesses burned. Does anyone know what those businesses were? Shibley's? The new mini-golf?

Here is the link:

http://www.necn.com/Boston/New-England/2009/04/12/9alarm-fire-claims-NH/1239582072.html

nj2nh

to the best of my knowledge based on calls from friends and neighbors none of the businesses had fallen, the fire burnt down the slope to rt 11 in places but the firefighters contained it. (the last i heard was around 9pm)

[dpg]

Driving to work this morning (in Mass) I heard no injuries on the radio? Bummer, looks like a HUGE fire(s) Radio did say they had gas tanks exploding.

[laketrout]

I was speaking to a relative who has a place there, his cottage is insured the land that it sits on is owned by the conference center. The houses are to close and yes the roads are to narrow with to many trees surrounding the houses.

[nj2nh]

Thanks for the info on mini-golf and Shibley's.

I have to say that Alton Bay is not the place of my childhood anymore. It isn't even the place of my children's childhood and they are only teens. In my almost 50 years, I have see so much disappear or changed beyond recogniztion - the Oak Birch Inn, McGrath's store (blew up one winter), those little buildings next to the fire department, and the pavilion. Even though I never once went up to the Christian Center, it was something you thought would just never change. There was even that fire on Mt. Major a year or so ago. The mini-golf that I knew is gone. Victoria's Pier is gone. The tree-covered hilltops have huge houses on them - something I never expected or hoped to see.

Well, things change, I suppose, but not always for the better. I mourn the passing of what was and don't necessarily welcome what is.

nj2nh

[dpg]

Exactly where is this place, I just cannot picture the street this happened in my head. Directions please from some common landmark???

[SIKSUKR]

Exactly where is this place, I just cannot picture the street this happened in my head. Directions please from some common landmark???

As you can see in one of the photos,it's right behind Pop's fried clams.

[Slickcraft]

I talked to the Alton Bay Postmaster at 8:30 this morning, she confirmed that the structure loss was confined to the ACCC buildings. The post office, mini golf, Shibley's, busy corner store, Chinese restaurant are all still there. It is a bit smoky inside the PO.

The combined fire departments did well to save what they could.

[Moss Creek Media]

I was driving through the Meredith traffic circle last night and 7 fire trucks raced past, plus 5 or 6 pickups with lights.

Here's the WMUR coverage, 11 alarms.

http://www.wmur.com/news/19161844/detail.html#

[gtxrider]

The fire made the FOX NEWS CHANNEL. I had to do double take. What a shame.

[Gearhead]

My wife went down to the conference center to check on the condition of the Bay Church building and the parsonage (The parsonage's siding is melted off and all the screens are melted away) and here's this woman standing in the backyard of the parsonage smoking. Can you guess what she did? Yep, as she stood there looking at the destruction from a brush fire that wiped out 45 homes,

SHE DROPS HER CIGARETTE ON THE GROUND! :fire:

How can someone be so S T U P I D!!! My wife stared at her until she stepped on it, and she continued to stare her down until she picked it up.

The fire marshall is there today to determine the cause of the fire, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was another ignoramus with a cigarette.

I posted it earlier, but I'm going to do it again. Charge 'em ten cents deposit per cigarette, and they get it back when they return them. We'll see a lot less of this around, and it literally won't cost them a dime if they pick up after themselves.

[Rattlesnake Gal]

I couldn't help but cry last night when we saw the coverage on Channel 9. Very sad.

My wife went down to the conference center to check on the condition of the Bay Church building and the parsonage (The parsonage's siding is melted off and all the screens are melted away) and here's this woman standing in the backyard of the parsonage smoking. Can you guess what she did? Yep, as she stood there looking at the destruction from a brush fire that wiped out 45 homes,

SHE DROPS HER CIGARETTE ON THE GROUND! :fire:

How can someone be so S T U P I D!!! My wife stared at her until she stepped on it, and she continued to stare her down until she picked it up.

The fire marshall is there today to determine the cause of the fire, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was another ignoramus with a cigarette.

I posted it earlier, but I'm going to do it again. Charge 'em ten cents deposit per cigarette, and they get it back when they return them. We'll see a lot less of this around, and it literally won't cost them a dime if they pick up after themselves.

Unbelievable! I am shocked at how many times I have seen people throwing their cigarettes out of their car window. During dry times too. Gearhead, your 10 cent per cigarette deposit sounds perfect!

[Kings Bluff]

Like the comedian says " You can't cure stupid" :laugh:

[dpg]

"As you can see in one of the photos,it's right behind Pop's fried clams."


Which is where???

[Argie's Wife]

"As you can see in one of the photos,it's right behind Pop's fried clams."


Which is where???

Last photo, lower right hand side of the picture. It's the gray building with the Coke-a-Cola sign on it in the forefront of the picture.

===

So far all reports I heard for what started the fire have said it was related to a brush fire and not a cigarette butt.

Seems to me that Alton has issues with large fires in April. Last year there were 40 acres burned on Mt. Major around April 25, if memory serves me right. Is this coincidence? Or is it that April is a dry, windy month for us?

[Pat]

Can anyone describe the exact location of the fire area? It appeared to me from the photos that as you drove up the main entrance of the ABCC that the fire was mostly on the left side of the complex. Is this correct?

[ghfromaltonbay]

Exactly where is this place, I just cannot picture the street this happened in my head. Directions please from some common landmark???

The campground is on a hill overlooking Rt. 11 in Alton Bay. As you head east on Rt. 11 it sits above the road on your right and the Pavilion is on your left. Shibley's ice cream and Jay's mini golf are also right below the campground property.

[TICTOC]

Memories - I have witnessed two major fires on the campground. The first was the 1945 fire, in person, our cottage was spared, it was on Glenn Ave.
This one is from a distance, Mesa, Az to be precise, the 5th cottage up the hill was our family's.

As far back as I can remember, we spent summers at Alton Bay, spending most of the day in the lake, no shoes, no road, just an old railroad bed. Even to go to Sandy Point you had to go by the back road if driving.

Many a day and evening has been spent on the screened porch of "Bonnie View" which was bought by my aunt and uncle in 1947, more than 60 years worth of good memories, now only memories remain.

[chipj29]

See more details on THIS THREAD (http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1696)

Great info in that thread. Thanks mcdude!

[imalocal]

Check out wmur.com - they have some great pictures of the fire and the aftermath

[Compudoc]

The fire made the FOX NEWS CHANNEL. I had to do double take. What a shame.

Coverage of the fire actually was mentioned in local media here in Northern Connecticut.

My in-laws used to own a cabin in the Ashland/New Hampton area. Many a summer's weekend was spent driving from Portsmouth with a food and pit stop at Shibley's and then driving right past ABCC and on to the Lakes Region.

It was sad to see all of the damage but I am very happy that no one was killed and that only one firefighter had to be taken to the hospital.

[cmsmehil]

Can anyone describe the exact location of the fire area? It appeared to me from the photos that as you drove up the main entrance of the ABCC that the fire was mostly on the left side of the complex. Is this correct?

yes, the fire engulfed the area between Rt 11, Rand Hill Rd, and Winni Ave--where the campground sign is off 11
http://www.winnipesaukeecam.com/images/houses-fire.jpg


wmur has a 360 image of the damage up now:
http://www.wmur.com/news/19168103/detail.html

~Cat
www.winnipesaukeecam.com (http://www.winnipesaukeecam.com)

[Zee]

The fire was covered in the local news in Richmond VA, complete with video.

[Skip]

Just now on WMUR's 5:00 PM news they featured information from the 1945 fire as posted by McDude, and gave credit to Winnipesaukee.com!

[mcdude]

yes, the fire engulfed the area between Rt 11, Rand Hill Rd, and Winni Ave--where the campground sign is off 11


I collaborated on the campground thread with our forum friend JacksonB. If the information above is correct I fear that JacksonB and his wife have lost their beloved family camp overlooking Alton Bay. ...along with TICTOC and his "Bonnie View". These camps personified Alton Bay and will be greatly missed. Our hearts go out to you!
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopost/data/15032/20yellowandbluecottage.JPG
"The Bonnie View"

cmsmehil: Thanks for that link to the 360 degree view. Devastation....

[flyguy]

This aerial photo (http://www.lakesregionaerials.com/photostore/ABCC_Fire_g134-Easter_Fire_2009_p1413.html) should show you clearly where it was located.

There's a few more aerial images located here (http://www.lakesregionaerials.com/photostore/ABCC_Fire_g134.html).

[osterber]

Those aerial shots are very illustrating. What appears amazing to me... it appears that the firefighters did an amazing job containing the blaze to a relatively controlled area. There are a lot of structures there that were saved. It's still obviously devastating. But based on some of the pictures posted above of the flames, I expected a much larger swath to have been destroyed.

-Rick

[Slickcraft]

When we left yesterday at about 5:45 pm it looked like the fire would burn to the post office and beyond with the intensity and the wind. When we looked today we were amazed that the firefighters were able to contain the fire as they did. Much was destroyed yet much was saved.

With reference to the map in post # 45, the attached photo is looking down Beacon Ave with cottage 43 on the left. As flyguy’s aerial photo shows, the central area is total destruction as if all was vaporized. All that remains is a small amount of ash and some twisted remains of metal objects.

Looking at the aerial, the row of cottages just left (north) of the black “crater” while standing, are burned out and will probably be condemned. The row of cottages further north appear mostly undamaged from the outside.

It was a sad sight to see many owners walking around where there cottages used to be.

[DRH]

The fire has completely changed the view of this area from Rt. 11 and the Bay. Most of the homes that caught fire burned completely to the ground, leaving nothing standing but their chimneys which were knocked down today.

I took the following two photos today. The first was taken from Rt. 28A looking across the Bay, and the second photo was taken from Rt. 11 in front of the Pavilion.

http://echoshores.com/Photos/2009%20Alton%20Fire/AltonFire_1.jpg (http://echoshores.com/Photos/2009%20Alton%20Fire/AltonFire_1.jpg)

http://echoshores.com/Photos/2009%20Alton%20Fire/AltonFire_3.jpg


For comparison, here is a photo I took of the burned-out Pavilion in 12/06 from Rt. 28A across the Bay. You can see many of the houses that no longer exist.

http://echoshores.com/Photos/2009%20Alton%20Fire/PavilionFire_1.jpg


:(:(:(

[cmsmehil]

flyguy, I was wondering when we were going to see some aerial shots from you! My heart is actually a little less heavy from seeing your shots as I believed all the cottages directly along Winni to be completely gone as well. The images are still terrifying, and we have many friends who have lost their homes, but I am glad that the destruction was not *quite* as widespread as we had feared based on the images of the fire itself and the slow news dribbling through.

mcdude-- welcome for the link. any updates from JacksonB or TICTOC? I thought the campground had been working on notifying everyone...

In other news, while all this is occurring in Alton Bay... Down in Dowling Park, they've been having serious problems with flooding. The water is finally falling, after cresting on Easter at 55 feet. It's expected to fall below flood stage on April 24. The crest stage was 0.9 feet above the 1998 flood.

Looks like we're literally facing hell and high water...

For anyone who's interested, a disaster relief fund has been established at the branch of TD Banknorth in Alton. Contributions may be made to Alton Bay Campmeeting Association.

~Cat
www.winnipesaukeecam.com (http://www.winnipesaukeecam.com)

[ApS]

Seems like a very fire-prone area. That makes at least 4 major fires around that end of the bay.....3 in the last 10 years.
Yet neighboring Wolfeboro hasn't had anything like these serial disasters... :confused:

bay view of Alton Bay...
mostly uninsured...
dry, windy...
fire-prone 2-story wooden structures...
over-levered mortgage environment...
overlooking newly-developed condominiums (http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showpost.php?p=35317&postcount=33)...that also burned...

Coincidences...that make you go...Hmmmmm...

:( :confused: :(

[upthesaukee]

I did not want to walk behind these houses, but it appears that the houses directly on Winni Ave in the campground were spared.

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopost/data/519/medium/winni_ave_2.jpg

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopost/data/519/medium/Winni_ave_1.jpg

Hope this is what you wanted to see and hear.

[camaro ss]

Great loss. Thankfully no one was hurt.

[Coolbreeze]

It is sad to see the remains after the fire but from the pictures that are posted I have to tip my hat to the local fire companies for containing such a blaze the way they did. Looking at the weather conditions that day and all the factors it is amazing that the whole mountain didn't take off like what you see in the California wildfires. Nice stop fellas.

[Woodsy]

I am saddened to see all this destruction.... hopefully they will all be able to rebuild and maintain the character of ABCC.

Great job by all the firefighters and support personell... they definitely saved the day!

Woodsy

[Irrigation Guy]

Great loss. Thankfully no one was hurt.

There was one firefighter hurt, hopefully he will fully recover from his injuries.

[Gearhead]

Here is a picture of the Bay Church parsonage from the back of the house. The back faces Beacon Ave. and the front is on Rand hill Rd. It got roasted but it stayed intact. By the way, here is where my wife saw the lady drop the burning cigarette on the ground while she was looking at the fire damage. Look at all the leaves on the ground.

[Moss Creek Media]

I drove down to Alton Bay today and shot 3 panos of the damage.

http://mosscreekmedia.com/pano/2009/0414/fire1.html
http://mosscreekmedia.com/pano/2009/0414/fire2.html
http://mosscreekmedia.com/pano/2009/0414/fire3.html

Kirk

[Alton Bay]

You have to wonder how these homes will be rebuilt. Will Alton zoning allow them to be built in their original footprint??

[Argie's Wife]

Kirk - the technology you use for your pictures is astounding. The devastation is equally astounding. The first picture you posted looks like something from another planet - hard to believe that's Alton Bay. Thanks for posting those pics and sharing that with us.



Alton Bay - you comment is the million dollar question in town. I can't imagine allowing all those variances that were grandfathered in on those cottages simply due to safety issues. Set-backs, easements, proper space for septic - just a few of the many variances that were allowed. There's going to be a lot of pressure on the ZBA to allow re-building but one wonders how they can allow a complete rebuild in that area and with a clear conscience.

[Waterbaby]

"As you can see in one of the photos,it's right behind Pop's fried clams."


Which is where???

If you are heading into Alton Bay, from (and I'm really really bad with Route #s and road names so please bear with me) the AB traffic circle, I think it's Route 11, so the Bay would be kind of right in front of you but a little left to your vision, you can either go straight or you can bear left, and that goes around the "bottom" of the Bay, then you have to curve hard right by (I think) Busy Corner and JP China will be on your left, to keep the water on your right ........... Then you are going up the "left" side of Alton Bay (if you were looking at a chart, lol). You would pass the huge parking lot in AB where there is a bandstand and what looks like an old train station, and Pop's would be in a kind of ramshackle building on the left..............

Good heavens, I sound like a New Englander giving directions -- which I am!!!!!!!!! :cheers:

[Moss Creek Media]

From what one of the owners was telling me, no they won't allow them all to rebuild. Those houses were on top of each other, and I'm sure were grandfathered in.

You have to wonder how these homes will be rebuilt. Will Alton zoning allow them to be built in their original footprint??

[Cobalt 25]

Kirk,

Thanks for sharing those "panos" (?) That technology is mind-boggling.

Peter

[Moss Creek Media]

pano = panoramic photo, just shorthand :)

Kirk,

Thanks for sharing those "panos" (?) That technology is mind-boggling.

Peter

[AC2717]

From what one of the owners was telling me, no they won't allow them all to rebuild. Those houses were on top of each other, and I'm sure were grandfathered in.

I can imagine multiple lawsuits against the town. If a property is grandfathered in you are allowed to replace what was there or stick to the footprint only.

Whatever the case I see a lot of folks with no summer places this year, :(

[Argie's Wife]

From what one of the owners was telling me, no they won't allow them all to rebuild. Those houses were on top of each other, and I'm sure were grandfathered in.

That sounds like what I had thought would happen.

Just a few weeks ago owners of a cottage in that area (I don't know if it is one of the ones that was in the fire) came before the ZBA to ask if they could move their cottage back a little and add on a room. The ZBA was reluctant to approve the request but eventually did only because the proposed plan made the cottage more conforming to codes. (I'm the recorder for the ZBA and several other town & school boards and committees.)

In short, unless owners can get really creative on making their cottage more conforming, I doubt you'll see many rebuild.

[jmen24]

A couple of things to remember about this property, it was stated that the land is owned by the conference center, that would mean that all those houses have leased rights to a cottage on what ever small space they were given. This was very common in Maine on paper company land, not so much anymore. Given that this property has seen this tragedy twice, I would be very surprised if the ZBA allows a rebuild in this area. But, the mud in the works is that the ABCC owns the land and leases use. Which means that the owners of the cottages would not have deeded rights to have a building there, only a contract with the land owner. This may not be the case, just basing on prior mention in this thread. You may end up seeing buyouts to absorb the properties next to make one cottage conforming, but who knows. More than likely the State Fire Marshalls office will step in and say no and that will release the town from lawsuits, because the SFMO has the authority to make that call.

I would think that after two major fires that it would be an increadibly difficult fight to get all the cottages put back into there locations. ZBA's can be easy to deal with, but it will still be tough.

[Grady223]

Check this out:

http://www.unionleader.com/uploads/media-items/slideshows/Alton_Bay_Fire/index.html

[fatlazyless]

Today's April 15, Laconia Citizen has an article on the Alton Bay Christian Center fire.

The Alton town assessor counted 45 different cottages, destroyed in the fire, ranging in assessed value from $35,000 to 154,800 for a total of $2,425,200. Since the fire took place after April 1, the Town of Alton can still send out tax bills for 2009.

Am not sure if that means through June 30, or December 31, 2009, when it says "tax bills for 2009?"

As reported, the ABCC owns the land and many different individuals owned the cottages. Does that mean the ABCC is property tax exempt, as a religious organization, for its' land, and the individuals are taxed for the assessed value of their former cottages?

Maybe I'm wrong on this but it sounds like the 45 different owners could be receiving their non-prorated, semi-annual property tax bills on about June 30, with one month to pay even though the cottage burnt down. ....such a deal....wow!

[cmsmehil]

Does that mean the ABCC is property tax exempt, as a religious organization, for its' land, and the individuals are taxed for the assessed value of their former cottages?

I'm not sure how the ABCCC side of this works, but yes, the cottage owners are responsible for the taxes on their cottages. Think of it as being similar to the ground rent system.

~Cat
www.winnipesaukeecam.com (http://www.winnipesaukeecam.com)

[SteveA]

A couple of things to remember about this property, it was stated that the land is owned by the conference center, that would mean that all those houses have leased rights to a cottage on what ever small space they were given. This was very common in Maine on paper company land, not so much anymore. Given that this property has seen this tragedy twice, I would be very surprised if the ZBA allows a rebuild in this area. But, the mud in the works is that the ABCC owns the land and leases use. Which means that the owners of the cottages would not have deeded rights to have a building there, only a contract with the land owner. This may not be the case, just basing on prior mention in this thread. You may end up seeing buyouts to absorb the properties next to make one cottage conforming, but who knows. More than likely the State Fire Marshalls office will step in and say no and that will release the town from lawsuits, because the SFMO has the authority to make that call.

I would think that after two major fires that it would be an increadibly difficult fight to get all the cottages put back into there locations. ZBA's can be easy to deal with, but it will still be tough.

There is a decision that came out of a lawsuit that was settled by the NH Supreme Court. It may be helpful to the folks at ABCC.

This was a case settled in 1997 in favor of Lake Shore Park vs. The Town of Gilford.

http://www.courts.state.nh.us/supreme/opinions/1997/lsp.htm

Short version is ,the court decided that the town could not force LSP into it's zoning rules as long as the total number of dwelling units did not exceed the the total allowed for the entire piece of property. (LSP has as much land on the non-lake side as it does on the lake side. )

One judge even said something like... " The town can control the number of chickens on the property, but not where the chicken coops are" .

It may be that the ABCC can rebuild using the same logic. :confused:

I hope for the families sake, they can all rebuild. I would love to hear Skips' take on this.

[WinnDixie]

Thanks, Moss Creek Media and others for the pictures. Those of us who are far away can see this ,thanks to you...although it is so terribly sad! I rode by this place countless times all the years I lived up there and the ABCC, as well as the old Pavilion were landmarks there at Alton Bay. I can remember going to a dance at the Pavilion, eons ago! nj2nh, you are so right...so much has changed, and much of that disappeared in a way that was not intended...as well as that which has been intended. I miss it all! Also feel so bad for all those who have lost their summer places. Hope some, at least ,will be able to rebuild.

[mcdude]

JacksonB; Unable to respond to your private message as your e-mail address associated with winni.com must have changed. Pls contact me with new e-mail address! McD

[Puck]

The town may have to allow the same number of "dwelling units" but 40 dwelling units does not necessarily mean 40 cottages. They may have the ability to require multi-unit buildings.

[fatlazyless]

...looking for an informed answer from a real estate person.....will the owners of the 35 burnt cottages be required to pay their property taxes in full through either June 30, or December 31, 2009, for tax year 2009, as was mentioned in the April 15 www.citizen.com?

The article mentioned that since the destructive fire occurred after April 1, that this may be the case. Would like to hear more on this from the Alton town assessor?

[tricia1218]

My thoughts are with everyone affected by the fire, a friend lost everything to a house fire recently and it is awful.

[Argie's Wife]

...looking for an informed answer from a real estate person.....will the owners of the 35 burnt cottages be required to pay their property taxes in full through either June 30, or December 31, 2009, for tax year 2009, as was mentioned in the April 15 www.citizen.com?

The article mentioned that since the destructive fire occurred after April 1, that this may be the case. Would like to hear more on this from the Alton town assessor?

Why don't you call him yourself? 875-0205 and ask for Tom Sargent. I'm sure he'd be able to answer your questions. :)

[Slickcraft]

...looking for an informed answer from a real estate person.....will the owners of the 35 burnt cottages be required to pay their property taxes in full through either June 30, or December 31, 2009, for tax year 2009, as was mentioned in the April 15 www.citizen.com?

The article mentioned that since the destructive fire occurred after April 1, that this may be the case. Would like to hear more on this from the Alton town assessor?

I offer two facts but no speculation:

1. By state law property assessments for tax purposes are as of April 1st (one reason why a lot of new construction starts in earnest after April 1st).

2. The Selectmen have to authority to abate taxes in part or in whole for just cause (after the tornado timber tax was abated for tornado damaged lots).

[MikeM]

The story made the local radio news on my way to work monday morning all the way down here in Port Charlotte Fl.


What a terible loss for all invloved.

[Waterbaby]

Today's April 15, Laconia Citizen has an article on the Alton Bay Christian Center fire.

The Alton town assessor counted 45 different cottages, destroyed in the fire, ranging in assessed value from $35,000 to 154,800 for a total of $2,425,200. Since the fire took place after April 1, the Town of Alton can still send out tax bills for 2009.

Am not sure if that means through June 30, or December 31, 2009, when it says "tax bills for 2009?"

As reported, the ABCC owns the land and many different individuals owned the cottages. Does that mean the ABCC is property tax exempt, as a religious organization, for its' land, and the individuals are taxed for the assessed value of their former cottages?

Maybe I'm wrong on this but it sounds like the 45 different owners could be receiving their non-prorated, semi-annual property tax bills on about June 30, with one month to pay even though the cottage burnt down. ....such a deal....wow!

Unfortunately, NH law is that whatever is there on April 1 is what is taxed. There is also a NH law in place that if a town/city has a more stringent law in place that will supercede the NH law, that rule will take hold; otherwise the state law is the rule. To my knowledge, no town in NH has one stricter than this one as it wouldn't be beneficial to the tax base to, say, change the law to allow two different dates during a calendar year. (I don't know the RSA reference numbers, perhaps Skip could help us out on this one.)

So, the cottages were there April 1 and yes, the owners are still responsible for taxes on what used to be there even if it is no longer standing, or habitable, or burned to the ground, or whatever other case may be. In other words, what was is what is. This would be beneficial to people who, say, were building a new home -- if there is only land on April 1, even if there were a foundation hole with forms set for pouring a foundation in place on April 1 and the foundation was poured on April 2, that property owner would only be taxed on the land itself until the following April 1 when the whole home may be up and lived in.

My knowledge is from having been a town employee in the past, and from my Mom losing her home (total loss) on 7/4/07; she, unfortunately, still had to pay taxes on a non-existent home based on the above.

Hope this helps, FLL!

[Waterbaby]

I offer two facts but no speculation:

1. By state law property assessments for tax purposes are as of April 1st (one reason why a lot of new construction starts in earnest after April 1st).

2. The Selectmen have to authority to abate taxes in part or in whole for just cause (after the tornado timber tax was abated for tornado damaged lots).

Correct on both counts, I forgot to mention in my above post the tax abatement application. If any ABCC cottage owners are reading, please check with the Alton town offices for the abatement deadline -- the forms have to be filed by (I believe) March 1 of next year! (The Selectmen also have the right to deny applications for abatement -- keep in mind abatements directly affect the tax rate, lower evaluations = higher taxes for everyone!)

[Ropetow]

...looking for an informed answer from a real estate person.....will the owners of the 35 burnt cottages be required to pay their property taxes in full through either June 30, or December 31, 2009, for tax year 2009, as was mentioned in the April 15 www.citizen.com?

The article mentioned that since the destructive fire occurred after April 1, that this may be the case. Would like to hear more on this from the Alton town assessor?

Who gives a Rat's Butt-end!!! A firefighter was injured, countless people lost their summer homes, and you are playing your same old worn-out song about taxes. Stop snickering and trying to stir the pot over other's misfortune! You, sir, have way too much time on your hands.

[fatlazyless]

Why don't you call him yourself? 875-0205 and ask for Tom Sargent. I'm sure he'd be able to answer your questions. :)

Thanks for your suggestion to call, but no, as someone who is not an Alton property owner and has no link to the fire, then I'm not gonna call.

The NH local property tax laws have been in existance for over one hundred years and get adjusted over time. It's not like they were all created just last week, so the rules have been in place for a long time.

Maybe the tax law in Alton allows for people with a house destoyed by fire to apply for an abatement prorated back to the day
of the fire?

Did not mean to offend any who have sufferd a loss from this disaster fire and know that Alton will recover.

[dpg]

Thanks for your suggestion to call, but no, as someone who is not an Alton property owner and has no link to the fire, then I'm not gonna call.

The NH local property tax laws have been in existance for over one hundred years and get adjusted over time. It's not like they were all created just last week, so the rules have been in place for a long time.

Maybe the tax law in Alton allows for people with a house destoyed by fire to apply for an abatement prorated back to the day
of the fire?

Did not mean to offend any who have sufferd a loss from this disaster fire and know that Alton will recover.

I agree with Ropetow, if you don't own one of them...Who cares?? The people that do are quite capable of checking these things out for themselves. Just worry about the owners straightening out their immediate issues. Must everything be $$$ driven?

[AC2717]

I agree with Ropetow, if you don't own one of them...Who cares?? The people that do are quite capable of checking these things out for themselves. Just worry about the owners straightening out their immediate issues. Must everything be $$$ driven?

Have to admit this is a legit question and it would be interesting what does happen with their taxes, I don't mind that question as when it was brought up, I thought to myself that is a very good question when the dust settles because it would factor into rebuilding, people staying in Alton, reps being elected and all that, it is a bigger issue than you think.

Now do not jump on me, just a .02 worth idea

[Steveo]

Drove by the fire scene yesterday - very sad to see all the damage. The fire also forced the removal of most of the frontal pines that were very old and beautiful. Large crane was brought in to do the job.

[nj2nh]

This is in response to Ropetow's comments about the tax question. This isn't petty. Requiring those poor people who lost their homes and have nothing left to pay taxes on is adding insult to this terrible injury. I don't think Fatlazyless (love that name!) meant what you think he did.

It is relevant and, I suspect, you didn't realize what you were saying. I don't usually make comments like this and will probably get plenty in response, but I couldn't let it pass. Can you imagine getting a tax bill for a home that doesn't exist anymore? It would start the mourning all over again. If it were me, I would think that the town/state/whoever was cruel and heartless even if it is required by law.

nj2nh

[chipj29]

This is in response to Ropetow's comments about the tax question. This isn't petty. Requiring those poor people who lost their homes and have nothing left to pay taxes on is adding insult to this terrible injury. I don't think Fatlazyless (love that name!) meant what you think he did.

It is relevant and, I suspect, you didn't realize what you were saying. I don't usually make comments like this and will probably get plenty in response, but I couldn't let it pass. Can you imagine getting a tax bill for a home that doesn't exist anymore? It would start the mourning all over again. If it were me, I would think that the town/state/whoever was cruel and heartless even if it is required by law.

nj2nh

While it may seem cruel or heartless, it happens all the time. I have heard of it being waived in at least one instance however.
Think of the town as a business, with income and expenses. They have budgeted for $x.xx in income and depend on that income each year. How would they make up the shortfall?

Not saying it is right, but it is how it is.

[Ropetow]

This is in response to Ropetow's comments about the tax question. This isn't petty. Requiring those poor people who lost their homes and have nothing left to pay taxes on is adding insult to this terrible injury. I don't think Fatlazyless (love that name!) meant what you think he did.

It is relevant and, I suspect, you didn't realize what you were saying. I don't usually make comments like this and will probably get plenty in response, but I couldn't let it pass. Can you imagine getting a tax bill for a home that doesn't exist anymore? It would start the mourning all over again. If it were me, I would think that the town/state/whoever was cruel and heartless even if it is required by law.

nj2nh I meant exactly what I said. FLL has a knack for turning anything and everything into a property tax beef. And he's an expert at 'stirring the pot'. Me, my heart went out and goes out to the folks who lost their summer homes, belongings and are left with nothing but treasured memories. Not to mention the brave souls that fought the fire and likely saved a good part of the town. Where's the speculation on how seeing such destruction affected them? Is the tax situation an issue? Sure is...for those involved. Idle speculation regarding a tragedy's aftermath that doesn't affect the poster is just that....idle (and in this instance, I say inappropriate) speculation.

[Kings Bluff]

Have they discovered what caused the fire yet?

[Island Girl]

Given that the land is owned by ABCC and the cottage owner's leased it, I would think the lost homes would be abated to zero and there is no value left. They would owe taxes to the date of the fire or however abatements are granted (by month, by quarter).

Just my two cents.

I am very very sorry for the cottage owners.

IG

[mcdude]

Have they discovered what caused the fire yet?

From the Laconia Citizen


Cause of 14-alarm blaze still a mystery
<TABLE><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>By HARRISON HAAS

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Wednesday, May 13, 2009
State Fire Marshal investigators have pinpointed where last month's disastrous fire at the Alton Bay Christian Conference Center started, but they have not been able to determine what started the blaze.

The actual cause of the fire is still classified as undetermined, District Chief John Southwell with the State Fire Marshal Office said Monday.

On April 12, Easter Sunday, the 14-alarm fire destroyed 45 seasonal cottages that were bunched together in one area of the conference center compound and damaged dozens more. At the height of the fire, 40 community departments and hundreds of firefighters battled the fast-moving blaze that was fanned by strong winds.

Through interviews of eye-witnesses, the area where investigators believe the fire started was on the ground under Unit 28, located on the northeastern part of the compound off Mount Pleasant Path, which runs perpendicular to Route 11.

Witnesses and emergency units that first responded to the fire noted that Unit 28 was the "most involved structure" at the time, which was expelling white smoke from underneath the cottage that changed to black. The sign of white smoke indicates that natural and organic materials were the first to burn.

Investigators viewed hundreds of photographs taken on the day of the fire to help them determine the cause of the fire.

"Wind was one of the driving forces for the destruction," Southwell said.

People in the area at the time of the fire were reported to have been putting out spot fires on the property, but were forced to leave as the fire intensified.

[kunamola]

No matter if you think it fair or not to owe taxes to a locality on a home that burns down, you still have a legal responsibility to pay your taxes and if your home was mortgaged to pay that also. Just ask all those former homeowners in Mississippi and Louisiana who had homes blown/washed away by Katrina. Not only did they owe their tax bill for the year they also owed their mortgage payments each month no matter the state or non-state of their dwelling until it is paid off by monthly payments or by handing the lender the insurance payment.

[TICTOC]

Has any cause been found for the ABCC fire of April 12 ? I read that some people saw smoke comin from beneath unit 28, which is in itself curious as the cottage wasn't occupied. Being so far away (Phoenix, AZ) it's hard to keep up with everything.

Thanks

[NHBoat70]

The cause of the fire has not readily been determined. My hypothesis is that because of the ice storm during the winter, the branches on the trees where damaged and ended up dying. On Easter the winds were in excess of 30 mph at some points and one of the dead branches fell onto one of the power lines. Although there were occupants in the cottages, the power lines were still live, and when knocked down, it caught fire when it came in contact with some of the dry materials, hence causing the largest fire in Lakes Region Mutual Fire Aid history.

[EZ-Pass]

Are they going to be able to rebuild the CC as it was or have they changed the building codes after the fire?????

[JacksonB]

The Town and Conference Center are working together on a plan to replace as many of the 44 cottages as possible under today’s zoning. With a 20’ side yard requirement, preliminary plans suggest some attached, townhouse style units may be necessary if all 44 units are to be replaced. I am sure both the Town and Conference Center would like to restart the income stream that these cottages generated as soon as possible.