smowmobile Registration Increase$$$$$

[WINNOCTURN]

Has any one heard about a proposed $16.00 RISE in Snowmobile Registration being initiated by NHSA? I just checked the NHSA website and saw nothing posted about it. In their Legislative up-dates in the HOT NEWS page the only thing mentioned is the possible availability of a 3 Day Riding Pass.

I got this from a very reliable source at our Club Meeting last night.

Fact or Rumor???

WINNOCTURN

[Lakewinn1]

They're killing us with fees & taxes.... Enough!!!

[Smith Point]

When is the nickel and dimeing going to stop? When are they going to let NH. Property owners register their snowmobiles as residents? Lord knows we pay enough in property taxes, and our kids don’t even go to school here! What’s next increase in boat registrations for nonresidents? How about a tax on all vehicles operating on New Hampshire road ways, O they already did that with the toll increase! I see a New Hampshire TEA PARTY in the near future.

[chipj29]

Sled registrations have not increased in nearly 10 years. Do I want to pay it? Not really, but it does go to a great cause! That may sound funny to you, but if it goes to the trails, it works for me.
Think of it this way...we pay good money for our sleds and equipment to maintain. What's an extra $16 a year? I know, it is in addition to everything else we seem to be getting taxed/charged for, but it isn't a big deal to me.

[jmen24]

The fee increases are needed to fund the trails as well as a failing Fish and Game department (there are other reasons as well), but at least you get your moneys worth from your registration. Have you registered an OHRV lately and then tried to use it somewhere other than your own property.
Personally I do not think that Fish and Game charges enough for non-residents to use our resources, you can enjoy the great north woods relatively cheap by state to state comparisons. A recent hunting trip in Colorado for me cost $1400.00 for three tags alone. I think new hampshire needs to take a lesson on how to raise money. I think the tolls could be higher as well, which would go a long way to repairing the damage and poor conditions of our roadways. As they say you have to pay to play. And New Hampshire residents should not be continually forced to fit the bill to keep everyone elses expenses down.

[Lakewinn1]

It's just not the snowmobile registration... Taxpaying "non residents" are being nickeled and dimed in all facits.

[eyenotall777]

Please remember that "non-resident" does not mean we do not pay taxes in NH. Most "non-residents" own property in NH and pay taxes as well as have trails run through their property. Also,"non-residents" do contribute to trail maintenance for snowmobilers as well ;)

[Irrigation Guy]

Just a bit of clarification. Snowmobiling in NH is a self-funded activity. What we pay in registration comes back to support snowmobiling in this state. It is currently dedicated funds, therefore I would not consider it a tax.

The increase in registration amounts to about a tank of gas in one of our sleds. I know the clubs really need this money. There hasn't been an increase in 10 years, you know when we were all riding around on goat paths being groomed with old box springs and pipe drags behind a sled. We expect a lot from the trails these days and unless we want to be going backwards this is sorely needed.

How much does it cost to go skiing for one day?

[Webbsatwinni]

There should be a way that if you pay property taxes in NH on a second property, that you can be viewed as a resident for items like registrations, etc. They do not assess lower taxes on those people that do not use their NH residence as a primary, so the regulations should be equal. It is like being double taxed.

[hilltopper]

There should be a way that if you pay property taxes in NH on a second property, that you can be viewed as a resident for items like registrations, etc.

I agree. In Vermont, even if your are not a resident, if you are a landowner you pay resident prices for VAST (Vermont's version of a trail pass). This makes sense to me because you very well could be a non-resident land owner who allows a snowmobile trail to cross your land.

[jmen24]

My point was that New Hampshire has a value to its recreational resources that is obvious by the amount people that flood the state on the weekends and holidays and it needs to charge a premium for that valuable resource. New Hampshire offers alot of activities for all kinds of people residents and non-residents alike. People keep the full time residency in other states for a number of reasons and if you start making concessions on certain items it will snowball. Non-residents are non-residents and it does not matter if you have a 1/4 acre piece of land or a multi acre compound, if you are not living here full time you are not entitled to the same benifits that a full time resident is. The flood of additional bodies into this state is a tax on New Hampshires resources. I am fully willing to pay fees to do the things that I am interested in doing that is why we have registrations for things like boats, snowmobiles, hunting and the such, because it is unfair to tax people that do not participate in these "recreational" activities.

Back to additional fees for snowmobile registration, it goes to a great cause and should be accepted and if you do not feel they are fair, the choice is to stop using the resource and that will lower the burden, but you cannot have both.

[WINNOCTURN]

Just a bit of clarification. Snowmobiling in NH is a self-funded activity. What we pay in registration comes back to support snowmobiling in this state. It is currently dedicated funds, therefore I would not consider it a tax.

The increase in registration amounts to about a tank of gas in one of our sleds. I know the clubs really need this money. There hasn't been an increase in 10 years, you know when we were all riding around on goat paths being groomed with old box springs and pipe drags behind a sled. We expect a lot from the trails these days and unless we want to be going backwards this is sorely needed.

How much does it cost to go skiing for one day?

I disagree when it is stated that we have not had an increase in registration fees in 10 years. Does the $30.00 increase not count (July 2006)? For those who do not join a club it is $78.00 not $48.00 (resident). This has helped to increase membership to most clubs but high membership numbers do not relate to an increase in volunteers. The good thing is that $25.00 of the extra $30.00 goes to the Grant-In aid program.

Link to Fees RSA
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XVIII/215-C/215-C-39.htm

When I originally posted this thread the question I was asking was more to why it was not general knowledge that NHSA had FARTHERED the bill and have no link or description of it on the Legislative Up-dates webpage.

[jeffk]

I have a couple of questions.

For other states that charge a lot more for their snowmobile registrations, what do they do with the extra money? Do they pay people to groom trails rather than depending on volunteers?

What specifically is lacking on our trails that extra money is needed for? Most things that need to get done seem to get done. The signage, while it might be a little better, seems to get the job done. The bridges seem to be replaced/repaired in a timely manner. The grooming seems timely and generally well done. Are costs spiking for materials? Is this just an inflation hedge for gradually increasing costs?

I have absolutely no problem with an increase if it is needed. For what we get in return the cost is very low. It just bothers me that someone just pops up and says more money is needed but really doesn't explain why, except in a very general way. My off the cuff response is that things seem to be running OK so why is more funding needed?

[Irrigation Guy]

Registration fee's have not increased in 10 years, it is no lie. There was a change in the law regarding joining a club or paying an extra $30.00 per sled. Many already belonged to clubs so it was no increase for them, many now choose to join a club vs paying the $30.00 per extra club, joining club is actually cheaper in that case. Clubs do benefit from increased membership and may gain a few volunteers and sure gained $$$, all of which helps.

To answer JeffK, several northern clubs have paid groomer operators and are hurting worse than the all volunteers clubs. Fuel has come down for now but was a huge problem very recently and will be again. Clubs are paying more and more for grooming equipment, insurance, and materials to build bridges ect. Support from the bureau of trails was cut $500K this year vs requests made due to shortfalls and federal money which clubs received comes to an end this year as well. Clubs are getting squeezed from all directions and are producing a better product now than ever before and the trail users have come to expect it. All the other states have had to increase their fee's to cover expenses, so it should be no surprise the NH is suffering the same pains as well. All in all it is a minimal increase in the big picture, I know a tank of gas in my sled is around $20.00, and I'll be happy to contribute a little more to keep the trails nice like they have been the last few years.

[Webbsatwinni]

Don't get me wrong, I think the trails are great and the clubs do a tremendous job keeping them usable for everyone. I just am not clear on what separates a tax paying resident and tax paying non resident. What does a non land owning resident pay? And why?

It feels to me that if you are fortunate enough to own multiple properties, you are penalized for being fortunate. It is only a few dollars so it is not really a big deal, but IMHO there is a gap in the thought process.

That said, if the money goes to supporting the trails, I am good with it.

[trfour]

And more clubs should adopt is having an optional Gold Cub Membership for the folks that live out of state whom want to join a club in the area that they want to ride in that can not volunteer for logistical reasons.

For instance; Single membership, $20.00. Family membership, $30.00-$40.00, Gold Cub membership with maybe a special sticker for their machine, or a hat pin for say $50.00-$60.00. This way it gives the folks that enjoy riding in certain areas to pay a little more, where they can not
volunteer for projects in Person.

I have more than happily participated and volunteered in both scenarios in the past. :)


Hat pin.

[Lakegeezer]

Don't get me wrong, I think the trails are great and the clubs do a tremendous job keeping them usable for everyone. I just am not clear on what separates a tax paying resident and tax paying non resident. What does a non land owning resident pay? And why?

It feels to me that if you are fortunate enough to own multiple properties, you are penalized for being fortunate. It is only a few dollars so it is not really a big deal, but IMHO there is a gap in the thought process.

That said, if the money goes to supporting the trails, I am good with it.Homeowner tax is paid to the town and county while snowmobile registration is paid to the state. Different entities, different thought processes. There may be some property tax paid to the state, but I don't think it's much. At the end of the day, the state charges more because it can. Just like some states levy income taxes on out-of-state workers, because they can.

[Webbsatwinni]

Homeowner tax is paid to the town and county while snowmobile registration is paid to the state. Different entities, different thought processes. There may be some property tax paid to the state, but I don't think it's much. At the end of the day, the state charges more because it can. Just like some states levy income taxes on out-of-state workers, because they can.

I understand they do it because they can and that the two are separate, I was just pointing out that in my opinion, there is an inequity in the process for those who are non resident land owners not by choice (I would rather live in NH) but because their career is in another state. Like I said above, it is small money and as it goes to the trails and those how maintain them, I am OK with it. I just think that owning a home in the area should afford everyone the same benefits primary residence or not.

[Irrigation Guy]

Homeowner tax is paid to the town and county while snowmobile registration is paid to the state. Different entities, different thought processes. There may be some property tax paid to the state, but I don't think it's much. At the end of the day, the state charges more because it can. Just like some states levy income taxes on out-of-state workers, because they can.

Just a clarification, snowmobile registration money is collected by the state but is placed in a "dedicated fund" for use to support snowmobiling in this state.

Our registration funds are not placed in the general fund, as in say Maine, where those funds were recently tapped by the state to help with fiscal shortfalls.

[jmen24]

It looks like the Bureau of lands gets an addimistrative bump, Fish and Game gets a much needed bump, the trail maintenance fund gets a bump and the fee paid to the agent gets a dollar.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2009/SB0135.html

I am not in any way trying to get in a residency dispute but it is black and white. The biggest issue for me personally and I am not speaking for anyone else is this, if a non-fulltime landowner wants to be able to register his OHRV for a resident price it will then turn into wanting voting rights and then tax exemptions, the slope is getting slick. That is why you will not see any kind of changes in residency regarding registrations. If a club trail runs accross your property that is your choice to allow the club through, whether your a res or not. A res does not get club member benifit pricing simply because the trail runs through his property (and is not a member).

My comments regarding non-residents not paying enough was to point out how little the state collects from out of state folks to use our resources compared to other states. With F&G running in the red it would make sense to me that they need to bring in more money and the out of staters wanting to come in and use these resources is the place to fund the shortfall. With weekend body counts higher than mid-week you are in a situation where you have a higher demand but cannot support the increase because of the lower weekly resident demand (hense we fit the bill for additional staff we do not need on a regular basis). It would make sense to raise fees to allow for more even ratios to handle the influx and not scrape the teeth of the residents. I am in favor of the white mountains pass, the canoe permit and I donate to fish and game on a regular basis as well as not for profit clubs that I am a member of RMEF, NWTF, because these clubs also give back and preserve the things that I enjoy doing. It all comes down to whether or not you are willing to put some skin in the game to support the things that you enjoy or use. These are all elective activities.

[TomC]

... snip... there is an inequity in the process for those who are non resident land owners... snip

What kind of outcry would there be if those states that collected income tax from out-of-staters at a higher rate than residents? Its easy for a NH resident to say "MA takes income tax from us so its fair to charge MA residents higher 'non-resident' fees"... To appreciate how that feels to people who pay large property tax bills to NH - then have to pay 2x 'non-resident' fees every time they want to fish, hunt, register a sled, etc - try to imagine MA (or any other state) charging a 2x income tax to out-of-staters "because they can"... that wouldn't be fair.

[jmen24]

2009 Colorado Elk tag for a resident $46.00
2009 Colorado Elk tag for a non-resident $546.00

2009 NH Hunting license for a resident $22.00
2009 NH Hunting license for a non-resident $103.00

New Hampshire needs to take a lesson on how to value their resources.

Taxes and fees are two different dogs one is manditory and one is elective.

[jeffk]

2009 Colorado Elk tag for a resident $46.00
2009 Colorado Elk tag for a non-resident $546.00

2009 NH Hunting license for a resident $22.00
2009 NH Hunting license for a non-resident $103.00

New Hampshire needs to take a lesson on how to value their resources.

Taxes and fees are two different dogs one is manditory and one is elective.

While I agree with your general principle of placing the correct value on resources I would point out a couple of things.

First, does a place like Colorado actually want to make money on their Elk tag or are they trying to keep hunting to a minimum and also just giving preference to state residents? New Hampshire actually tries to make money not necessarily from just registrations, but for the the whole economy (meals, rooms, etc). The activities drive the far more valuable economic business. The fees are just sufficient to regulate, manage, and promote the activity, not to profit from it.

Given that, how much can you raise the fees before the golden goose of other tourism dollars is impacted. I don't know the clear answer to that question and I doubt anyone really does. Could you increase a fee from $40 to $80, probably. From $40 to $400, maybe not.

[lakershaker]

2009 Colorado Elk tag for a resident $46.00
2009 Colorado Elk tag for a non-resident $546.00

2009 NH Hunting license for a resident $22.00
2009 NH Hunting license for a non-resident $103.00

New Hampshire needs to take a lesson on how to value their resources.

Taxes and fees are two different dogs one is manditory and one is elective.

I think this is a difficult comparison to make because Western states have much better hunting, and draw hunters from around the world for the trophies. Not too many Elk in NH anymore... (unless you are fortunate enough to be a member or get an invite to the best hunting preserve in the eastern US). NH hunting is just not in the same league - and if I just want to hunt small game and maybe occasionally a deer, I'll pay what NH is charging now, but if it was significantly higher, I'd pass or go to a different place.

It seems to me NH has figured out pretty well how to value its resources already and shift a significant amount of the tax burden to those who visit with high taxes that all tourist and non-residents need to pay (lodging, road tolls, property taxes on vacation homes - but no income tax or sales tax), and residents have benefted by having among the lowest overall tax burdens in the USA.

[jmen24]

Both of these points are valid and I was trying to say that we need to make a huge jump but if the funding is needed these are the areas that could bring in the revenue. I did not intend to completely swing the topic of this thread so I appologize for that. There is a fine line that needs to walked before non-residents will walk away and the hunting out west is different than here, but we have an open land policy in this state and combined with very good animals it makes for a valuable resource. Colorado limits its trophy areas to draws or private land permits and allows over the counter unlimited tags in all other areas. The rest is regulated by seasons (6 total for elk). We are pretty far off topic for this thread now and most of that is my fault so I will refrain from continueing down the hunting road, here anyway.

[chipj29]

Has anyone seen how much it costs to get a snowmobile trail pass in Quebec for a season? I went up a couple years ago and it cost me over $200 for a trail pass. That was for a 4 day trip. Maine is pretty pricey as well. So to me, compared to other areas, we have it good.

[Irrigation Guy]

Has anyone seen how much it costs to get a snowmobile trail pass in Quebec for a season? I went up a couple years ago and it cost me over $200 for a trail pass. That was for a 4 day trip. Maine is pretty pricey as well. So to me, compared to other areas, we have it good.

Part of the reason Quebec has a high price is that the are including $500K CDN liability as part of their trail pass.

That's not to say we don't have it good. Look at what Maine is charging out of staters.

[Belmont Resident]

At one time we rode in NH. That was about 7 years or more ago.
I had already been hooked on Maine for several years then once my wife, girlfriend at the time, was introduced to Maine we never went back to our home state.
No speed limits, no stopping at intersections every time you turn a corner and wide groomed trails every where.
On top of that it was until 2 years ago cheaper to register in Maine as none resident then it was in NH as residents.
We usually ride about 2/3 on unmarked, ungroomed, virgin trails out in the backwoods where the only factor to where you go is limited to the extra 3 gallons of fuel we carry and the nearest gas stop.
Last year we did very little of that kind of riding instead sticking to the ITS trails and racking up just under 5000 miles GPS for the season. Per sled…
Try doing that in NH without going over the same trails 10 times all the while staying at or below 45mph.
NH is not bad but if you really want to go places Maine and Canada are the places to register.
Now for the argument on the cost for registering your sled in NH.
Most sleds on average cost between 5000 and 9000, riding gear several hundred depending on how brand loyal you are. Helmets, trailers, truck to tow it all and your looking at a chunk of change. We average between 60 and 100 a day for gas depending on mileage and fuel location.
I think the small amount you spend once a year to ride the trails is pretty insignificant compared to what you’ve already spent just to be able to ride.

[HomeWood]

I only use my sleds for about 2 weeks a year in NH. The fees kill me for the little riding I actually do, but it's a blast and I'll keep riding. I wish I could register as a resident since my family lives on Winnipesaukee.

I now have 2 sleds and 2 atvs....your welcome state of NH!

[VtSteve]

I agree. In Vermont, even if your are not a resident, if you are a landowner you pay resident prices for VAST (Vermont's version of a trail pass). This makes sense to me because you very well could be a non-resident land owner who allows a snowmobile trail to cross your land.

It makes sense as well for another reason. A non-resident in Vermont has to endure a major beating in property taxes. The resident VAST fee for non-residents tries to make them forget that aspect :emb:

[chipj29]

If I am not mistaken, the registration increase in NH is not until next year.

[6meter]

As a taxpayer in both Ma and NH and to your arguments on non residents, I now propose a toll booth only for NH residents that come down RT 3 & 93 to work in Mass. Mass needs to learn how to value their resources, ie, jobs. On top, because of the shortfall of highway funds and increased traffic from the north, the Mass state income tax for non residents is now 8%.

[WINNOCTURN]

If I am not mistaken, the registration increase in NH is not until next year.

Chip,

You are correct, Registration Fees do not go into effect till next year.

[HomeWood]

This reminds me of businesses that raise prices and eventually they go out of business because people refuse to pay anymore.

We have no such thing as atv registrations here in NC (ssshhh, don't tell them). Maybe it's a wash for me then, but I'm sick of being nickeled and dimed to death. Would they rather me just not bother to ride anymore? I sure would save a TON of money on my NH winter vacation. :rolleye1:

[RLW]

Last year I saw lots and lots on the trails unregistered along with boats out on the smaller lakes and ponds. I bet this year will be another banner year for unregistered snowmobiles as people really can't afford the costs and the fees being raised.:)