Rogue Airplane

[Lakegeezer]

Does anyone recognize this plane? It has been buzzing the lake well below the 500 foot from people/property limit. I caught this picture, but there don't seem to be any numbers. The pilot should be reminded of the rules.

[NoBozo]

Looks like a Cessna 120/140 produced between 1946 and 1950. The tail number may be under the rear stabilizers. If he's over the water he can go as low as he dares.

[upthesaukee]

I increased the pixels per inch up to 2500, 500 pixel increments, and still could not read what is on the tail in red.

If your original has a higher pixels per inch, try increasing it and concentrate on the tail.

[Lakegeezer]

Nobozo; while a plane can be as low to the water as the pilot dares, the rules say the plane must be 500 feet from persons or property. This guy was buzzing lines of snowmobilers at less than 100 feet AGL. Note: the FAR mentions "OPEN" water, so above the ice, the minimums may be 500. Does anyone know how that is interpreted?

FAR § 91.119 (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/FARSBySectLookup/91.119)Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
.
.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

Upthesaukee; I've attached a cropping of the tail from the original shot - no way those are numbers. Doesn't look like any under the stabilizer either.

[TexASH Pilot]

The lettering above the horizontal stabilizer is the Cessna logo.

The white rectangle below and in front of it is a state of MA registration sticker, so that narrows it down a little.

If it keeps coming back, it might be staying at Laconia for a vacation.

[NoBozo]

The lettering above the horizontal stabilizer is the Cessna logo.

The white rectangle below and in front of it is a state of MA registration sticker, so that narrows it down a little.

If it keeps coming back, it might be staying at Laconia for a vacation.

The fuzzy lettering on the tail/rudder probably does say '"Cessna". The plane is (I think) restored and "Correct". Later Repaints of modern planes require much larger Tail Numbers but I don't know offhand the qualifications for such relettering.

As noted in another post "Ice Airport". Maybe the pilot is going there.

[NoBozo]

Nobozo; while a plane can be as low to the water as the pilot dares, the rules say the plane must be 500 feet from persons or property. This guy was buzzing lines of snowmobilers at less than 100 feet AGL. Note: the FAR mentions "OPEN" water, so above the ice, the minimums may be 500. Does anyone know how that is interpreted?

FAR § 91.119 (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/FARSBySectLookup/91.119)Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
.
.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

Upthesaukee; I've attached a cropping of the tail from the original shot - no way those are numbers. Doesn't look like any under the stabilizer either.

Lakegeezer: My guess is you are a Pilot..as Am I. Interpretting the FARs can be an Open question. I always wondered if I flew over open water (which I used to do over the Elizibeth Islands..Cape Cod) at say 300 feet ASL..if I was LEGAL. The FARs mention that if Life or Property would be endangered by doing so.....I might be in violation. I never asked..because I figured it would be a question that every pilot would have an opinion...but no real answer.

[Joe Kerr]

Is there a fine for flying an unregistered plane? I would think it is like cars and boats and need registration. Pilots, do you ever see a plane coming from behind with flashing blue lights?

Are there unlicensed pilots and unregistered aircraft in the air? There are many private airstrips or landing areas scattered around New England. Could someone continue to "fly under the radar" like that? Would it be easier than piloting a small unregistered boat without a boater education certificate?

[upthesaukee]

Upon further review:

In this link:

http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_initiatives/oversight/iasa/model_aviation/media/PART04.doc

Starting in section 4.3.1.5, gives the marking locations.

Under the left wing

On the vertical tail section (both sides)

On the fuselage (both sides)

(the engine pod stuff doesn't apply here)

In looking at this airplane, it almost looks like it may have been recently stripped of paint and repainted, or at least in the process of repainting.

Certainly, we should be able to see one area that requires the "N" number to be displayed (N= US registry.)

Looks like a job for Homeland Security :rolleye2:. Maybe we'll see this episode on TV on Tuesday nights!!!!!

Off topic, but as an aside, I had forgot how many Government documents had "this page intentionally left blank" . As I remember it, it didn't matter if the document was printed on both sides of a sheet or just one side. I guess they are leaving room for further expansion ;).

Back on topic...As far as over open water, until the civilian and government lawyers get involved to further define this question, I personally think that open water that is frozen would still be considered open water. Buzzing boats on that water is still a no-no, so buzzing snowmobiles would likewise be a no-no. And I don't think that group of bobhouses constitutes a village or town :laugh:. (sometimes it looks like it)

[TexASH Pilot]

Lakegeezer: My guess is you are a Pilot..as Am I. Interpretting the FARs can be an Open question. I always wondered if I flew over open water (which I used to do over the Elizibeth Islands..Cape Cod) at say 300 feet ASL..if I was LEGAL. The FARs mention that if Life or Property would be endangered by doing so.....I might be in violation. I never asked..because I figured it would be a question that every pilot would have an opinion...but no real answer.

Unless you're in waivered airspace (i.e an airshow or other aerobatic box) you can legally fly 5 feet above the water (or ground, or ice) as long as you're 500' (vertically or laterally) from another person, vessel, or structure. You must also fly at an altitude (non-specific) so that if your engine failed, you wouldn't endanger someone else's life or property. So those 300' runs across to MVY are perfectly legal as long as you're not flying right over boats.

Of course if you've really PO'd the wrong fed, they could always get you with a 91.13(a) (careless/reckless operation) violation.

[TexASH Pilot]

Is there a fine for flying an unregistered plane? I would think it is like cars and boats and need registration.There very well could be. It's up to the FAA. I suspect this airplane is properly registered as well as marked. The FAA allows for older airplanes to be "grandfathered in" with their old markings. The N number is likely on the other side of the vertical stabilizer, or possibly even on top of the right wing.

Pilots, do you ever see a plane coming from behind with flashing blue lights? No, but if you do something dumb, you might be met on the ground where you landed, or you if you do something REALLY dumb you might even end up with a military jet/helo "escort" somewhere. If you see an F-16 off your wing, you're probably not going to enjoy the rest of your day. ;)

Are there unlicensed pilots and unregistered aircraft in the air? There are many private airstrips or landing areas scattered around New England. Could someone continue to "fly under the radar" like that? Would it be easier than piloting a small unregistered boat without a boater education certificate?Without a doubt there are unregistered aircraft and unlicensed pilots. The problem is much more pervasive in rural areas where enforcement is hard. For the most part, and especially when operating out of private, non-towered airports, pilots do not ask permission to take off, land, or fly where they want to go. There are areas where you would need to ask permission to enter or at least establish radio contact with ATC to enter, but it's easy to avoid those if you wanted to.

Alaska is quite "lawless" in this respect. I read somewhere that the FAA's goal was to get at least 50% of the pilots in AK certified. As for this airplane, the fact that is has a MA registration sticker means it's registered with the FAA as well since the MA registration is dependent on the FAA registration number (i.e. the N number).

[upthesaukee]

Pilots, do you ever see a plane coming from behind with flashing blue lights?


In my prior life, I was an air traffic controller, both USAF and FAA, and while working down in LA, we had a student pilot on a cross country solo who got his weather briefing, and decided he could fly VFR (visual rules) over to our airport 90 miles or so away. He decided to get on top of the clouds for better visibility, climbing up through some "holes" in the clouds.

By the time he got over to our area, we were in a solid overcast with the bottoms of the clouds around 2500 feet and the tops around 3000-3500 feet. When he finally admitted he was in trouble, he was low on fuel and the only place to land was in our area, so we set him up on a straight course, had him descend at a low rate of descent, and kept all traffic away from him. He indeed made it out of the clouds and immediately left our frequency. We simply called the General Aviation District Office (GADO), told them what had transpired, and they met the pilot when he got out of the airplane. He was lectured at great length, but no ticket.

The saying in law enforcement is that you might outrun my car, but not my radio. The same thing happens with airplanes. :)

[Collybus]

In looking at this airplane, it almost looks like it may have been recently stripped of paint and repainted, or at least in the process of repainting.


I have nothing new to add to this discussion other than to concur with TexASH Pilot regarding the regs for open water-and-ice and to point out that I believe this airplane is not being repainted; the polished skin is it's color, and I think it's beautiful! ;)

Buzzing people and sleds is not nice and pretty stupid to boot, but is it possible he wasn't below 500 feet? To the uninitiated 500 feet can look pretty close...

[VitaBene]

I saw him off States Landing beach the weekend before the derby. He was no higher than 50' but I think was buzzing his buddies who were fishing on the ice.

[The Eagle]

Hi Guys & Gals,
I know this is a serious matter, but in all honesty..Doesn't that look like the plane that was on the roof of that small restaurant in Laconia? (I forget the name)...I'm just adding a little trivial humor! I hope everyone is enjoying the winter! Spring is coming!
"The Eagle"

[SAMIAM]

That's funny ,Eagle.I can see Pepper now....flying over the lake with goggles like Snoopy wears when fighting the Red baron.Speaking of Pepper.....has there been any sightings? I miss her on the forum because she was always positive and upbeat with a great sense of humor.

[SteveA]

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2707&highlight=waldo+pepper+plane