Tough times/ Bad Economy

[sa meredith]

Wrote a post here, and changed my mind. Was not able to simply delete it, which is why you are reading this now. Wiped out the whole thing, but the computer kept asking me for 10 letters.

[SAMIAM]

Changed your mind about posting about a bad economy,huh?.....must have been thinking about an Obama presidency

[sa meredith]

samiam...I changed my mind, because it was a lengthy, fact based post, about the current state of the economy, and specifically the lakes region. Mostly negative, and I just decided it really served no purpose.
My motive for it was reading all the posts on this board, saying things like "times really are not that bad", "the poor economy is just media perception", "the worst is behind us". And I just don't get it. So last Friday, I went out of my way to speak to every establishment I visit regularly, and just mention in passing, "hey, how's biz".
What I got???? Horror story after horror story. Marinas (I spoke with two), restaurants, butcher shop, campgroud, etc.,etc. Story after story of unpaid slip/valet fees, calls from people stating not to put their boat in this year, restaurants cutting way back on staff...it goes on and on. The original post was quite lengthy, giving specific examples and quotes...but posting them is probably not the right thing to do. I don't believe a business owner would want to read this board, and see something about one of his employees telling people how bad things are.
But, to anyone who says things are getting better, or were not that bad to begin with...just ask around a bit.

[Jeti]

I am in the Internet business, best year ever! Seems that the high cost of oil maybe causing business to incorporate more efficiencies into there company, thus driving the need for IP connectivity!

Most retail business can be hurt with a slow economy, but it goes up and down.. remember here folks that as the baby boomer's start to get planted, their large wealth will be passed down, this will create the largest economic growth our country will ever see!

Key is the hang in there, If you running a business you need access to capital, afford capital that helps you weather the difficult times. If they failed to plan or gain that access, it could be part of a bad business plan.

[MAXUM]

There is no question that many folks are hurting economically and for some I really do feel sorry for. However I can't help but not really feel to bad for the majority of people out there as many suffer do to their own financial irresponsibility.

Sad thing is for somebody like myself who doesn't make a ton of money, yet manages to put away a substantial amount of savings instead of living beyond my means is going to get screwed paying for all the irresponsible ones.

[jeffk]

There is no question that many folks are hurting economically and for some I really do feel sorry for. However I can't help but not really feel to bad for the majority of people out there as many suffer do to their own financial irresponsibility.

Sad thing is for somebody like myself who doesn't make a ton of money, yet manages to put away a substantial amount of savings instead of living beyond my means is going to get screwed paying for all the irresponsible ones.

One theme that seems to keep repeating itself is that I will be talking to someone, friends, family. associates, and they will tell me about some financial hardship they endured. I go "Oh my God, that's too bad". Then the conversation continues and I go "You did WHAT????" and I realize that a large part of their problem they brought upon themselves.

One friend got some stock options from a company and didn't know they were taxable. He used the money to buy his house.The IRS was all over him and he almost lost his house.

I know several people in construction that are wonderful at building things but are extremely poor at tracking their costs and billing appropriately. They went out of business.

My daughter's friend buys a motorcycle and doesn't realize what the monthly payment will be. Takes delivery and gets his payment book. Guess what, HE CAN'T AFFORD IT!!

How many conversations have we had on this forum about how property taxes work and how some could afford the property but are blown out of the water when the taxes go up.

I truly fell pain for all these people. I actually lent money to the friend with the IRS trouble so he could keep his house. But THEY WERE CARELESS AND FOOLISH. Occasionally circumstances will overwhelm even the best of planners but it doesn't happen that often.

I agree with Maxum in that I really get annoyed when people make foolish decisions and then the government pops in and wants to tax me to cover their mistakes. If you never have to cover your own bets why would ever stop gambling? :(

[WakeUp]

Sa Meredith - the scenrio you highlight will, and has happened under all economic conditions. The free enterprise system is doing "it's thing" and happens to be working a bit harder right now. Typical economic cycle. Nothing to get over excited about. I love hearing that businesses are laying off people to "tighten their belts." Should they always try to operate with a tight belt? On another note, here are some facts to try and make any nay-sayers feel better as I ask: "What are we so unhappy about?'

A. Is it that we have electricity and running
water 24 hours a day, 7 Days a week?

B. Is our unhappiness the result of having
air conditioning in the summer and heating in the
winter?

C. Could it be that 95.4 percent of these
unhappy folks have a job?

D. Maybe it is the ability to walk into a
grocery store at any time and see more food in
moments than Darfur has seen in the last year?

E. Maybe it is the ability to drive our cars
and trucks from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic
Ocean without having to present identification papers
as we move through each state?

F. Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe
motels we would find along the way that can provide
temporary shelter?

G. I guess having thousands of restaurants
with varying cuisine from around the world is just not good enough either.

H. Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency workers show up and provide services to help all and even send a helicopter to take you to the hospital.


I.. Perhaps you are one of the 70 percent of Americans who own a home.


J.. You may be upset with knowing that in the unfortunate case of a fire, a group of trained firefighters will appear in moments and use top notch
equipment to extinguish the flames, thus saving you, your family, and your belongings.


K. Or if, while at home watching one of your many flat screen TVs, a burglar or prowler intrudes, an officer equipped with a gun and a bullet-proof vest will come to defend you and your family against attack or loss.


L. This all in the backdrop of a neighborhood
free of bombs or militias rap ing and pillaging the
residents. Neighborhoods where 90% of teenagers own
cell phones and computers.


M.. How about the complete religious, social and
political freedoms we enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the
world?

Maybe that is what has 67% of you folks unhappy.

[kjbathe]

...I really get annoyed when people make foolish decisions and then the government pops in and wants to tax me to cover their mistakes. If you never have to cover your own bets why would ever stop gambling? :(

Amen. And today a massive foreclosure "rescue bill" (I love the election-year labels) is on track for passage by the Senate. The plan would let the Federal Housing Administration back $300 billion in home loans for borrowers who otherwise would be considered too financially risky to qualify for government-insured, fixed-rate loans.

Translation: Too risky for seasoned lending professionals to loan them their money, but not too risky for our Senators to think it's a good idea to give them our money. :eek:

[twoplustwo]

... to kjbathe. Let's not forget our economic stimulus checks which our children will be paying back to China long after those new monster TVs are choking up landfills.:rolleye1: The government went from throwing good money at bad, to throwing bad money at bad.

[Puckster]

Unfortunately the sheeple in this country are too busy watching mtv or listening to their ipod to fully understand the ramifications of the two stimuli bills. One has passed (the tax break) and the housing rescue which will pass (hopefully Bush will veto). I do not want to pay for anothers mistake. Lets not even get into oil. The only good news about high oil prices is any talk of raising gasoline taxes is quickly shot down and maybe our extremely intelligent congress will open up our coast lines and mosquito factory in Alaska to oil drilling. Cudos to the Clinton administration for not allow us to explore these areas for domestic oil production.

[meteotrade]

The only good news about high oil prices is any talk of raising gasoline taxes is quickly shot down and maybe our extremely intelligent congress will open up our coast lines and mosquito factory in Alaska to oil drilling.

Ugh. How many times does it have to be pointed out that opening up more areas to drilling will have NO SHORT TERM IMPACT on gasoline prices? Yes, if we open up ANWR, we may be able to realize enough production to curb the price of crude by about $0.50 per barrel... 15 YEARS from now!

Besides, oil companies don't even drill on land that has already been opened up. http://www.kentucky.com/589/story/443005.html

If you want energy independence, you don't look for ways to enable your habit... look for ways to break it.

[Puckster]

Besides, oil companies don't even drill on land that has already been opened up. http://www.kentucky.com/589/story/443005.html

If you want energy independence, you don't look for ways to enable your habit... look for ways to break it.

You do not have to teach me about supply of oil. It will take 10 years to see any supply from these areas, so does that mean we should not do it at all? What do you think will be the price of oil in ten years....200, 300 a barrel. Anything to increase supply is good. Get over it, we are dependent on oil. Do not patronize me or the thought that we should be doing more to supply our own oil. If we had started 10 years ago drilling in these places instead of bending over for the animal huggers, we would be reaping the benefits of an increase in domestic supply. So your "it will take 10 years" lingo does not hold water. We have to start somewhere.

[kjbathe]

Ugh. How many times does it have to be pointed out that opening up more areas to drilling will have NO SHORT TERM IMPACT on gasoline prices?

But that's short-sighted: We should not pursue longer-term initiatives because they can't deliver near-immediate results? If we had started drilling 15 years ago, we'd be be done already. But we didn't then, because it would take too long. :)

I know folks are sensitive to disrupting this gloriously-named "National Wildlife Refuge", but in reality we're talking about allowing drilling operations on a parcel of land less than size of Laconia, in a wildlife refuge the size of South Carolina tucked in the northern-most corner of Alaska that already bears a striking resemblance to the surface of another planet. We're not talking about doing this off the front porch of your lake house during Loon mating season.

Regarding the argument that oil companies aren't drilling on land they already have available is because there isn't a sufficient quantity or quality of oil under those leased parcels. Upwards of 60% of the wells drilled in those areas came up dry. DRY. How many dry wells do you expect them to drill? That's why they want to go offshore -- where the oil is.

Finally, China has the ability to drill off the coast of Cuba into a pocket of oil that also sits off our Florida coast. China can take that oil, but our Congress won't allow Florida the option of letting our own interests extract it. That just doesn't make much sense to me. And it sounds good to say it will take 15 years, but drillers in the Gulf with existing infrastructure note that they can get at that oil in as little as 6 months and no more than 16 months. Drillers without existing infrastructure in place note that there is no oil off our coasts that they can't get to in less than 6 years. Six. That doesn't really scream "too long" to me.

But you are correct, Oil is only one side of the equation. $4 gas is here to stay and will certainly spur a long-overdue drive to bring new technologies to the market. But we need to pursue both sides in parallel. Something that our designated representatives in Washington have been both unable and unwilling to grasp. :(

[Boater]

Ugh. How many times does it have to be pointed out that opening up more areas to drilling will have NO SHORT TERM IMPACT on gasoline prices? Yes, if we open up ANWR, we may be able to realize enough production to curb the price of crude by about $0.50 per barrel... 15 YEARS from now!

Besides, oil companies don't even drill on land that has already been opened up. http://www.kentucky.com/589/story/443005.html

If you want energy independence, you don't look for ways to enable your habit... look for ways to break it.You're right, new drilling may not produce any gasoline for 10-15 years. So....if we had drilled 10-15 years ago we might not be in this crisis now. Who was President 10-15 years ago? Who completely ignored the growing energy needs of our growing economy?

The US now uses 20 million barrels of oil a day to meet our needs. HEAVY conservation may take that down to 15 million barrels a day but even that is doubtful. Do you have a replacement for that or should we just move back into the stone age?

I agree that we need to ween ourselves off of oil and develop alternatives. Oops, the Dems won't allow nuclear, hydroelectric, wind farms or more refineries. We might be able to look forward to plug-in electric cars but not without 40-50 nuclear plants to generate the power. Oops, can't do that. You see, the Dems have no comprehensive energy plan. They are now controlled by the extremists. Their answer to every proposal is NO.

If our economy and way of life is going to survive we need to do it ALL. Drill, build nuclear and hydroelectric plants, provide heavy incentives to develop alternatives and new technologies, and yes, develop and use our own vast oil and oil shale resources. Set a long-term goal for energy independence and then make it a national priority like the Manhattan Project or landing on the moon. If we don't do ALL those things we are facing some real suffering in the coming years as we are unable to heat our homes or transport our food supply.

[chipj29]

I recently read that in April the US drove xx million fewer miles than the previous month. Fewer miles driven=fewer gallons of gas used. I don't know what the exact number is, so I can't answer how many gallons of gas, but I would hazard a guess at over 100,000 gallons of gas were saved in one month. Now stay with me here. The "speculators" are the ones who indirectly determine the price we pay at the pump. They base their number on supply and demand. So I deduce that since we saved 100,000 gallons of gas, the demand dropped. I will hazard another guess and say that supply did not change in that month (just a guess). So if demand decreases and supply doesn't change, doesn't that mean prices should have gone down?
This is where I think we are getting hosed by someone, while that someone is making a massive chunk of $$. At least that is how it looks from here.

I would be willing to bet that May and June will show similar decreases in gas consumption. Where will gas prices go??

[GWC...]

I recently read that in April the US drove xx million fewer miles than the previous month. Fewer miles driven=fewer gallons of gas used. I don't know what the exact number is, so I can't answer how many gallons of gas, but I would hazard a guess at over 100,000 gallons of gas were saved in one month. Now stay with me here. The "speculators" are the ones who indirectly determine the price we pay at the pump. They base their number on supply and demand. So I deduce that since we saved 100,000 gallons of gas, the demand dropped. I will hazard another guess and say that supply did not change in that month (just a guess). So if demand decreases and supply doesn't change, doesn't that mean prices should have gone down?
This is where I think we are getting hosed by someone, while that someone is making a massive chunk of $$. At least that is how it looks from here.

I would be willing to bet that May and June will show similar decreases in gas consumption. Where will gas prices go??
You forget the effect the knat in Iran that has a case of the hiccups has...

[meteotrade]

Who was President 10-15 years ago? Who completely ignored the growing energy needs of our growing economy?

Umm, hello, Republicans controlled the entire government for 6 YEARS under the Bush administration. Where were the sweeping reforms then? And you didn't even address the point that potential oil production from ANWR equates to a drop in the bucket compared to world supply... essentially, a nickel at the pump. So, if we could go back in time and force Clinton to open up exploration 15 years ago, guess what... you'd be paying $3.94/gal instead of 3.99 today. Good call.

The fact is, you, Puckster and the rest of the Democrat haters on here are itching to pin responsibility of high oil prices on them. The reality is, its a bipartisan problem and no one has a good answer, not the Dems, not the Repubs. Drilling in the US will not do ANYTHING to bring gas prices down any time soon. I agree with you that we should be exploring alternative energy more aggressively than we are. However, nuclear, hydro, wind etc are all great if you want to bring your electricity bill down, but its not going to help a lick at the pump.

[meteotrade]

But that's short-sighted: We should not pursue longer-term initiatives because they can't deliver near-immediate results? If we had started drilling 15 years ago, we'd be be done already. But we didn't then, because it would take too long. :)

People are hurting now... they don't care if their kids are going to pay a nickel less for gas 15 years from now. They want relief today, and I think many (most?) are under the misconception that if we opened ANWR and the eastern Gulf immediately to exploration, we'd be paying much less at the pumps near term. That's simply not true.

I am optimistic, that with good leadership in Govt and a strong push from the public, we can ween ourselves off oil, and 15 years from now we won't be saying, "Thank God we opened up ANWR", we will be saying, "Thank God we kicked that nasty oil addiction!"

[meteotrade]

Do not patronize me or the thought that we should be doing more to supply our own oil. If we had started 10 years ago drilling in these places instead of bending over for the animal huggers, we would be reaping the benefits of an increase in domestic supply.

First, I said 15, not 10. And that's a conservative estimate. Some estimates are closer to 25 years. All this to save a nickel at the pump.

Second, you did not address the linked story. In case you missed it, here is an excerpt:

Providing oil and gas companies with more land to drill is often seen as the cure-all for our energy problems. The fact is, however, oil and gas companies are choosing to drill on only about a quarter of the 68 million acres (bigger than the size of Kentucky, Tennessee and West Virginia combined) already leased to them by the federal government. Even though these companies have 81 percent of all the known reserves in the United States, they refuse to extract the oil and natural gas they already control.

Your anger is misdirected... why not ask these oil companies why they are sitting on so much oil now without tapping it? Because you're afraid of the answer, which is "because high oil prices are in our best interest."

[meteotrade]

Finally, China is now drilling off the coast of Cuba into a pocket of oil that also sits off our Florida coast. China can take that oil, but our Congress won't allow Florida the option of letting our own interests extract it. (

Btw this is an urban legend, perpetrated by the "pro drilling" crowd. http://www.miamiherald.com/campaign08/story/567156.html

[kjbathe]

Truth be told, I haven't actually witnessed a Chinese rig in Cuban waters and lack the ability to discern which one of the competing statements of Jorge, Mel, John or Dick is correct (although Boehner citing the NY Times didn't really bolster my confidence. ;)) Thus, I updated my post above to note that China has the ability to drill off our coast while the United States legally does not. Even if the Congress allowed it, that doesn't mean the individual states would permit it and we could speculate all day about what it would do to prices at the pump. I just think the states should have the option to open those fields to exploration.

Anyway, the real reason for this reply... The Commerce Department reported today that the economy grew at a 1 percent annualized rate in the first quarter, an update to the previous estimate of 0.9 percent growth. The new reading was better than the 0.6 percent growth rate logged in the final three months of last year.

I know we continue to experience slowdowns in many aspects of the economy and that 1% growth doesn't warrant us bringing out the confetti cannon, but as I've written elsewhere, I don't think we should be all about the doom and gloom. Only the future will bear out if my current thoughts were appropriate, and with all due respect and empathy to the difficulties experienced by sa_meredith, I remain optimistic about our collective futures, higher gas prices and all.

My glass is half full and filling.

[rander7823]

I recently read that in April the US drove xx million fewer miles than the previous month. Fewer miles driven=fewer gallons of gas used. I don't know what the exact number is, so I can't answer how many gallons of gas, but I would hazard a guess at over 100,000 gallons of gas were saved in one month. Now stay with me here. The "speculators" are the ones who indirectly determine the price we pay at the pump. They base their number on supply and demand. So I deduce that since we saved 100,000 gallons of gas, the demand dropped. I will hazard another guess and say that supply did not change in that month (just a guess). So if demand decreases and supply doesn't change, doesn't that mean prices should have gone down?
This is where I think we are getting hosed by someone, while that someone is making a massive chunk of $$. At least that is how it looks from here.

I would be willing to bet that May and June will show similar decreases in gas consumption. Where will gas prices go??


I thought the esitmate was 2 Billion(that sounds like alot) less miles traveled


And don't forget the hundreds of flights that have been cancelled by the airlines and all that jet fuel that wasn't used.

It just doesn't seem to add up to what we were taught in Economics 101

[sa meredith]

Yeah, you're right. Turns out the whole economy thing was just a big mis-understanding. Things are great!!!!
KJbathe, my guess would be that you earn your keep thru some means other than retail...paid by the government, or health care (hospital work), perhaps in the field of education...something other than retail.
Anyone who is mid-class, blue collar type, grinding away each day or works in a industry that depends on those same blue collar types having the ability to spend (which is where I fit in) will tell you a very different story. State your facts about growth, and percentages, but in the end, if you look out the window, and it's raining, it does not matter that the weatherman just said it's sunny out. It is INDEED raining, you can plainly see it. So I encourage, look out the window. What do you see? I looked closely last Friday (post 3 I believe) and saw a terrible storm. Do you think thses people were not forth coming with me?
I wish I had not started this thread....

[kjbathe]

However, nuclear, hydro, wind etc are all great if you want to bring your electricity bill down, but its not going to help a lick at the pump.

Nuclear, hydro, wind, etc... help at the pump because they supplement or replace our current electrical plants that are fired by gas or oil. It helps on the demand side.

But this is not about a quick fix, election-year reduction of prices at the pump even if we like the idea of that simplistic feel-good notion. Gasoline powered combustion engines are from the Henry Ford days. We are at or nearing peak oil -- oil is not our long-term future, but it is our reality until we get to the future.

Where we find ourselves today is analogous to the Wright Brother's taking their first flight and our technology evolution and commitment to take the Apollo missions to the Moon. Are we up to the challenge? That remains to be seen, but at least $4 gas seems to finally have us thinking it's an attractive pursuit.

[chipj29]

I thought the esitmate was 2 Billion(that sounds like alot) less miles traveled


And don't forget the hundreds of flights that have been cancelled by the airlines and all that jet fuel that wasn't used.

It just doesn't seem to add up to what we were taught in Economics 101

That is exactly my point. It just does not add up.

[kjbathe]

Yeah, you're right. Turns out the whole economy thing was just a big mis-understanding. Things are great!!!!
KJbathe, my guess would be that you earn your keep thru some means other than retail...paid by the government, or health care (hospital work), perhaps in the field of education...something other than retail.
Anyone who is mid-class, blue collar type, grinding away each day or works in a industry that depends on those same blue collar types having the ability to spend (which is where I fit in) will tell you a very different story. State your facts about growth, and percentages, but in the end, if you look out the window, and it's raining, it does not matter that the weatherman just said it's sunny out. It is INDEED raining, you can plainly see it. So I encourage, look out the window. What do you see? I looked closely last Friday (post 3 I believe) and saw a terrible storm. Do you think thses people were not forth coming with me?
I wish I had not started this thread....

Yes, it's raining. But we have umbrellas and we don't need an arc. And I get paid by the hour. ;)

[John A. Birdsall]

I heard that if Barrack is elected President that an oil rig will start drilling in the No Wake Zones on the lake. Maybe that will bring the oil prices down.:eek:

[GWC...]

Interesting reading:

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/05/its-official-cuba-hires-china-to-drill.html

http://www.washtimes.com/news/2006/jul/24/20060724-122242-7824r/

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/china_starts_oil_drilling.html

[Puckster]

First, I said 15, not 10. And that's a conservative estimate. Some estimates are closer to 25 years. All this to save a nickel at the pump.Okay, lets just sit around and do nothing.

We could lessen the number of different gasoline formulations to ease the pain. Refineries have to change formulations based on area of country and time of year. We should erase alot of these formulations and make it more efficient for the refiners to keep up with demand. Forget trying to get that through congress. Dump the ethanol mandate. The only good that is doing is driving up the cost of food. It takes more energy to make than it gives, the last report I read.

Get over it, we are an economy based on oil for at least this century. For the life of me I try to figure out why libs can not wrap their brains around that.

[CanisLupusArctos]

In times like this, many a layperson may find it useful to start following the weather and climate more. This will help alleviate expensive surprises.

The weather, and other natural events, have historically been one of the greatest drivers of prices, and also have been known to decide the course of human events including wars.

With this in mind, it always boggles me that weather and climate get such elementary-school treatment by the mainstream media. I've met people from the financial crowd who use private weather consultants to help them make decisions.

Anyway, main point is that it's a good time to start learning more about meteorology and climatology, following them each day, and applying that knowledge to each day's human happenings from around the world.

As a positive side effect, learning new stuff, like a science, language, or skill, has the effect of taking one's mind off of bad news elsewhere, perhaps even making a person start loving some "bad" stuff in the same way stormchasers and firefighters both run towards what everyone else is running from.

[Puckster]

In times like this, many a layperson may find it useful to start following the weather and climate more. This will help alleviate expensive surprises.

The weather, and other natural events, have historically been one of the greatest drivers of prices, and also have been known to decide the course of human events including wars.

With this in mind, it always boggles me that weather and climate get such elementary-school treatment by the mainstream media. I've met people from the financial crowd who use private weather consultants to help them make decisions.

Anyway, main point is that it's a good time to start learning more about meteorology and climatology, following them each day, and applying that knowledge to each day's human happenings from around the world.

As a positive side effect, learning new stuff, like a science, language, or skill, has the effect of taking one's mind off of bad news elsewhere, perhaps even making a person start loving some "bad" stuff in the same way stormchasers and firefighters both run towards what everyone else is running from.

I like your point. I do have one problem with your proposal, unfortunately climatology has been interwoven with geo politics. The man made global warming crowd has made sure of that.

[chipj29]

With this in mind, it always boggles me that weather and climate get such elementary-school treatment by the mainstream media. I've met people from the financial crowd who use private weather consultants to help them make decisions.

Anyway, main point is that it's a good time to start learning more about meteorology and climatology, following them each day, and applying that knowledge to each day's human happenings from around the world.

As a positive side effect, learning new stuff, like a science, language, or skill, has the effect of taking one's mind off of bad news elsewhere, perhaps even making a person start loving some "bad" stuff in the same way stormchasers and firefighters both run towards what everyone else is running from.
Because they can neither understand it, nor control it in anyway.

[Ropetow]

Here's something we can do if we believe that while alternative fuels are surely the future (why can't we have a nuclear-powered car or boat...) they are likely a decade or more from having widespread availability.

Drill Here. Drill Now. Pay Less.

Click here to join the nearly 1.2 million Americans who want to build a bridge to this future of alternative fuels.

http://www.americansolutions.com/actioncenter/petitions/?Guid=54ec6e43-75a8-445b-aa7b-346a1e096659
(http://www.americansolutions.com/actioncenter/petitions/?Guid=54ec6e43-75a8-445b-aa7b-346a1e096659)
And, to those who say that we won't get any benefit from drilling here for many years...ask yourselves this...what would be gas and home heating oil prices be today had not President Clinton vetoed the proposed ANWR legislation? Yes, we'd be using that oil right now...supplies would be up...prices would be down.

[fatlazyless]

Will the first decade of the 21st century become known as the double bubble decade?

First, there was the internet technology bubble at the start of the decade. And now as this decade closes, will we be seeing a real estate bubble as the financials and housing markets see their values slowly go down?

Did Shakespeare see this coming when he wrote in MacBeth:

"Double bubble, toil and trouble..."

...or something like that? Will look that Shakepeare quote up later on....it's time to hit the sailboat!

[gtxrider]

... to kjbathe. Let's not forget our economic stimulus checks which our children will be paying back to China long after those new monster TVs are choking up landfills.:rolleye1: The government went from throwing good money at bad, to throwing bad money at bad.

I just got my stimulus check and it probably cost more to cut the check than it is worth...it won't even fill up my gas tank. I guess the economy is not bad for me! I still have a job and can meet my bills. In fact I get to work this weekend. The VOICE MUST GO THROUGH...

[CanisLupusArctos]

I like your point. I do have one problem with your proposal, unfortunately climatology has been interwoven with geo politics. The man made global warming crowd has made sure of that.


I agree. My note was to the individual level. For example, when a couple of my fellow "weather geeks" and I saw the likelihood of the midwestern floods as they just beginning to develop, we said to each other, "There go the food prices... get ready." A couple days into the damage assessement came the "official" word from the national networks, "There go the food prices." The best time to prepare is before the news sounds its alarms.

By the same concept in the winter, if I need anything at the store before a big snowstorm, I track it and make my store trip when the storm is 2 days away rather than wait for the official warning to trigger a mad rush of panic-shoppers. Farther out, a forecast has a greater chance of being wrong and I've occasionally lost the bet, but most other times it's saved my sanity.

In this economic environment, a hurricane entering the Gulf of Mexico could trigger a swarm of panic-buying of crude oil (on Wall Street) and gasoline (at the pump.) I'm not saying it definitely would, but totally possible. In that situation, you'd want to be tracking the hurricane and using as much insider information as you can understand from Day 1, so you could decide how best to avoid the rat race and maybe save a little money in the process.

Things like that.

[Winni P]

There is alot of talk about a bad economy and how people are not travelling due to the high cost of gas...

We are coming up to the lake for our annual week of relaxation and just called around to rent a boat. We had a hard time finding a boat that was available!! We don't usually wait this long, but thought we wouldn't have a problem this year...

Hopefully this means business is good for those around the lake this year.

[Pineedles]

Try the Meredith Marina. www.meredithmarina.com :)

[NoBozo]

My wife and I have been coming up to the lake for over a decade now. We always rent the same cabin at the same place and bring our boat. I got my "Boating Certification" this year and am ready to go.

I haven't got the boat out of the garage yet. We are still booked at the cabin and will still go. BUT: Taking the boat is still up in the air. All this stuff about MP.....random bording....docking at public docks...Yada Yada... has really put a krimp on our attitudes about Winni. We like to go out to dinner at lakeside restaurants by boat. Now, maybe I'd better not have a glass of wine at dinner. I don't want to go to jail while on vacation. :emb: NoBozo

[Hermit Cover]

I have just a second to comment....I heard the President say just today that the economy is pretty good and his successor apparent, Sen. McCain, said the surge is a great success in Iraq and were winning that war, but I need to run.....gotta get some cash outa my IndyMac account before closing time....:rolleye1:

[ITD]

My wife and I have been coming up to the lake for over a decade now. We always rent the same cabin at the same place and bring our boat. I got my "Boating Certification" this year and am ready to go.

I haven't got the boat out of the garage yet. We are still booked at the cabin and will still go. BUT: Taking the boat is still up in the air. All this stuff about MP.....random bording....docking at public docks...Yada Yada... has really put a krimp on our attitudes about Winni. We like to go out to dinner at lakeside restaurants by boat. Now, maybe I'd better not have a glass of wine at dinner. I don't want to go to jail while on vacation. :emb: NoBozo

Come on up, bring your boat and enjoy yourself. I was on the lake Monday in my sailboat and went for almost an hour and a half before I saw another boat. It's not the wild west on the lake, don't let the fear mongers scare you, they just want the lake to themselves.

[neckdweller]

I just got my stimulus check and it probably cost more to cut the check than it is worth...it won't even fill up my gas tank. I guess the economy is not bad for me! I still have a job and can meet my bills.
Well that means that you're earning too much according to the govt. Above$75K (single) or $150K (married) and you start getting it reduced $50 per $1000. The theory is that the people who need it most will immediately use it and put it back into the economy. I'm doing just what the government didn't want to see happen - whenever I get to a bank it's just going into a savings account and it won't alter my spending (like you, ours got reduced quite a bit but it will fill the boat up a couple times).

[kjbathe]

A colleague was walking around with his stimulus check yesterday. I said to him, "I didn't think you were a citizen." And he smiled and said, "I'm not!". He's here working on a visa, but paid more than $3k in taxes so he was eligible for the rebate. It struck me as a little odd, but if he spends it here and doesn't send it home, then I guess it meets the intent.

[Merrymeeting]

Back on the topic of the economy and impact to the lakes region, one of the Boston channels had a report on last night about this years Cape Cod tourism.

In summary, despite many fears to the contrary, they are on track to having one of the best years ever. It will be interesting to hear if the same is true at the lakes.

[Resident 2B]

One thing I have noticed this year is reduced crowds during the mid-week at the Weirs. However, what really has caught my attention is the reduction in trips, usually through cruise cancellations, by the Mt Washington.

Tonight they have cancelled the 4:30 out of the Weirs and the 6:00 out of Wolfeboro. They are still planning on having the 7:30 out of the Weirs. Last week and early this week, I also saw the Mount at the dock a few times when it was scheduled to be out on the lake. High cost of fuel and low crowds seem to be having an impact here.

I really hope they are able to continue with a full schedule the rest of the summer. For those that are coming to the lake, this is the best way to really see and experience the lake, either during the day time or at night.

R2B

[WinnDixie]

One thing I have noticed this year is reduced crowds during the mid-week at the Weirs. However, what really has caught my attention is the reduction in trips, usually through cruise cancellations, by the Mt Washington.

Tonight they have cancelled the 4:30 out of the Weirs and the 6:00 out of Wolfeboro. They are still planning on having the 7:30 out of the Weirs. Last week and early this week, I also saw the Mount at the dock a few times when it was scheduled to be out on the lake. High cost of fuel and low crowds seem to be having an impact here.

I really hope they are able to continue with a full schedule the rest of the summer. For those that are coming to the lake, this is the best way to really see and experience the lake, either during the day time or at night.

R2B

That's a little scary to me. I love The Mount, and it is--indeed--my way to get on the lake. I might not get up there until 2010, and I am already planning my ride! I'm not over the Old Man falling off Cannon Mt.; and (not learning what I should have from that!) I am planning for the Mt. Washington to be there forever! Please keep an eye on it!! Thanks!

[NoBozo]

I presume everybody is thinking about the economy.... maybe as an observer....or maybe as a participent. My earlier post mentions the MPs apparent crack down on complience, which may deter boaters from coming out. It certainly deters me...especially when I think that every time I go out on the lake it will cost me $20 an hour for gas. That's at $5 per gallon..at 4 GPH.

I get to "Run The Gauntlet" with the MP....AND.. spend $20 an hour to do so. Why would any reasonable person want to do that? :look:

Come summer, the marinas have got all their boats in the water. Now their income comes from "casual" maintenence, and GAS sales. Nobody comes out....no gas sales.

Does this combination of MP crack downs and high gas prices seem to be a good formula for the Local Economy? I don't think the marinas selling gas are going to be gouging anybody this summer. On the contrary, I think they may even sell gas at near cost....just to get people out on the lake.

This is not an attack on the rank and file in the MP...They have their orders. Just wondering. NoBozo

[Pineedles]

Wow WinnDixie you bring back memories of how my great great grandparents used to "commute" from Boston to Center Harbor in the 1880's. They relied on a daily schedule. Bummer if the economy limits the Mount's schedule. I was dissapointed when it curtailed its daily visit to Center Harbor. The current economic malaise could last another 2 years. I would anticipate further "re-scheduling" of the Mount's schedule.:(

[Chris Craft]

They say that in bad economic times is the best time to make your fotune. Luckily I am having my best year to date this year. That of course can change in the blink of an eye.

[KonaChick]

They say that in bad economic times is the best time to make your fotune. Luckily I am having my best year to date this year. That of course can change in the blink of an eye.

Chris Craft...are you the repo man?? :laugh:

[Sal]

"Run the gauntlet" ???

Sounds as if you have a reason to be fearful.:rolleye2:
Please share your bad experience(s), if any.

[fatlazyless]

Here's some excellent news for the local lakes region economy.

As of tomorrow, July 24, the minimum wage in the State of New Hampshire will be going up by five cents. From $6.50 to 6.55/hour, no fool'n!

The reason: Washington has increased the rate for the entire country even though both our NH Senators Sununu and Gregg voted against an increase because it would be bad for business. :eek:

Senator Gregg wins $850,000 Powerball money on 10/20/05, and then votes NO to a five cent minimum wage increase because it's bad for business......nice guy Senator Gregg!

[fatlazyless]

Washington Mutual actually has (or had) a Meredith office in the office building close to Energysavers. I definately expect to see it remain open and transition into a J P Morgan office. Meredith has at least five different mortgage provider offices so Meredith must be a good mortgage business town.

Say, maybe a town based, 1% mortgage sales tax to help pay for the new football field bleachers?:)

[Coolbreeze]

The world is coming to an end... contact me and I'll buy your lake house and give you a good deal.

[Pineedles]

Ok, I'm game. What will you give me for my Moultonborough valued lake front $1,095,000 home? It better be $1,095,000 or more, because the world is not coming to an end!

[gtxrider]

The economy is not bad for the CEOs that ran (into the ground) the financial institutions. I wish I could get a Golden Parachute for screwing up royally. I would just be shown the door. I think those CEOs should have to forfeit their Golden Parachutes and just do a free fall.:eek:

[EricP]

The economy is not bad for the CEOs that ran (into the ground) the financial institutions. I wish I could get a Golden Parachute for screwing up royally. I would just be shown the door. I think those CEOs should have to forfeit their Golden Parachutes and just do a free fall.:eek:

I totally agree, must be nice

[twoplustwo]

I got laid off yesterday. No notice, no severance, no nothing, and via voicemail to boot. Very professional, don't you think? There's 9 years of my life I'll never get back.

Pineneedles, I may need to move into your garage. Hope it has lake views. And a wireless connection. ;)

[TomC]

I got laid off yesterday. No notice, no severance, no nothing, and via voicemail to boot. Very professional, don't you think? There's 9 years of my life I'll never get back.

Pineneedles, I may need to move into your garage. Hope it has lake views. And a wireless connection. ;)

I've had to lay off people for lack of work... its the worst part of the job. If one can't muster the intestinal fortitude to do that face-to-face than the person shouldn't be in management. To do that by voicemail is deplorable... in my opinion anyway.

Best of luck in finding new employment - often a bad situation like this opens up an opportunity you otherwise would have missed...

[EricP]

WaMu failed, the Fed took them over and their outgoing CEO, who was on the job for 3 weeks, gets 15 million in pay and severance. I can't even believe that can be justified. It's unreasonable to pay that and totally ridiculous. I wonder if he'll really get it all or somehow common sense will step in and make a huge adjustment. BTW, that's ~$30k per hour for his brief stint.

[twoplustwo]

They are replacing my telecommuting position with an in-house one. That translates into hiring an ITT kid at half of my salary to replace me. The best part? It's not my manager who left the voice mail, he had no idea they'd even done it when I spoke to him last night. It was the owner of the company, and it's par for the course for him.

I've been sitting in front of a computer in software development since 1986. Maybe something new is what I need, anyway. 22 years is a long time. Maybe I'll find my bliss. And eat a lot of Ramen noodles in the meantime.;)

[Pineedles]

I am one of the owners of a small company, and I too have had to lay people off for lack of work. It is painful for both of us. I have seen all of them though, find another job in a matter of weeks. I make it my personal mission to assist them by providing a personal leter of recomendation as well as talk to a potential employer if requested. Twoplustwo your welcome to the garage but neither it nor the house is winterized (no insulation, no furnace). :)

It will be tough for a lot of people as we head down the next path. This country has been living on too much credit and that is the fault of everyone. Yes, it galls me when I see CEOs who don't work any harder than their line assembly guys getting salaries from Boards of Directors that should be protecting the stockholders of a company rather than those in the ivory tower. Maybe this current crisis will open some eyes and get responsibility back in play.

[cee65]

Boone Pickens said it best & straight to the point;

"We are not going to drill ourselves out of this crisis."

Period/paragraph.

[EricP]

I want to put a windmill on the hill behind me.

[Rose]

Maybe I'll find my bliss.

The mess mate on the schooner I sailed on last weekend was a 16 year old girl who experienced sailing on an Outward Bound expedition and that was it for her...she knew sailing on tall ships was where she was supposed to be. I was so envious of this girl who, nearly 30 years my junior, had found her bliss, while I'm still struggling on the path to mine. Hope you are successful in finding and following yours.

[secondcurve]

Boone Pickens said it best & straight to the point;

"We are not going to drill ourselves out of this crisis."

Period/paragraph.

This country also isn't going to be using any less oil in the next 5-10 years so we better drill, drill and drill while we are searching for alternatives.

[secondcurve]

WaMu failed, the Fed took them over and their outgoing CEO, who was on the job for 3 weeks, gets 15 million in pay and severance. I can't even believe that can be justified. It's unreasonable to pay that and totally ridiculous. I wonder if he'll really get it all or somehow common sense will step in and make a huge adjustment. BTW, that's ~$30k per hour for his brief stint.

The CEO's name is Alan Fishman and He actually got $19.1MM and it works out to over $40,000 an hour according to today's edition of Barrons. Perhaps he will refuse some of the pay as the interim CEO at AIG did.

[fatlazyless]

Wonder if the New Hampshire Employees Retirement pension plan, www.nher.org, pension fund got WaMu-ed when Washington Mutual was seized by Uncle Sam? Supposedly, the California teacher's pension fund had lots of WaMu.

[angela4design]

I know the employees of that Meredith WaMu office, which was exclusively home loans. They closed that office years ago to 'consolidate'. Layoffs began about 2-3 years ago, as I recall. Funny thing is; one of the agents since went to work for a different agent, and as I recall, it was JP Morgan Chase! Funny how these things come around.

So sorry for those struggling with employment. NH has it a little better than some metro areas I think, but that's little consolation. I'm just glad that our banks are local people (who we know), and not Wall Street Fat Cats. So, even if my job evaporates, I can still feel confident that my savings will still be there. Small consolation, but still...

Does it possibly warrant an occasional mention of job listings on this forum? I understand that we don't know 'who does what' professionally, but I think if we get priveleged information, maybe it couldn't hurt. Just throwing it out there...

[tricia1218]

It amazes me the lack of personal responsibility some homeowners seem to have. You know what you can afford, if you make 30k you should be suspicious at being prequalified at 450k with no money down.

And does no one read their loan terms??!? I had an 80/20 loan and it could not have worked out better.

I heard my hairdresser complaining that she didn't refinance in time and her rate was going up and they would have trouble paying their mortgage and had calls into a state agency to help her and her husband refinance at a lower rate and no closing costs, then in the next sentence she was talking about renting out her condo once the new loan was in place and buying a house? I was amazed she messed up once and was being helped out and was going right back in.

[jetskier]

It amazes me the lack of personal responsibility some homeowners seem to have. You know what you can afford, if you make 30k you should be suspicious at being prequalified at 450k with no money down.

And does no one read their loan terms??!? I had an 80/20 loan and it could not have worked out better.

I heard my hairdresser complaining that she didn't refinance in time and her rate was going up and they would have trouble paying their mortgage and had calls into a state agency to help her and her husband refinance at a lower rate and no closing costs, then in the next sentence she was talking about renting out her condo once the new loan was in place and buying a house? I was amazed she messed up once and was being helped out and was going right back in.

My sense is that it was really more about the brokers and regulators. There were a number of investment vehicles that were clearly targeting buyers that were not qualified for a particular mortgage. Some of the vehicles actually required payments that did not even meet the intrest rate for the loan and the principle increased over time.

I am sure that the brokers would convince the buyers that the value of the property would go up and that they needed to own to create personal wealth.

I think that there are a number of uninformed buyers who don't know what they are doing in this world. But, IMHO it is the fault of the banks and regulators in allowing investment vehicles that target unqualified borrowers. Years ago, when we bought our house, there were strict income requirements, debt caps and limits on mortgage affordability. This was done as a basic requirement to sell the loans to Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae...not an issue these days; my cat can probably qualify for a mortgage. :D

Jetskier:cool:

[ITD]

Let's not forget our government's role in this debacle. I remember 5 to 10 years ago, many prominent mayors, congressmen and senators jumping up and down because banks were not writing low income people loans. They were threatening legislation and lawsuits. Well, they got their way and look what happened......

[Waterbaby]

I think that there are a number of uninformed buyers who don't know what they are doing in this world. But, IMHO it is the fault of the banks and regulators in allowing investment vehicles that target unqualified borrowers. Years ago, when we bought our house, there were strict income requirements, debt caps and limits on mortgage affordability. This was done as a basic requirement to sell the loans to Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae...not an issue these days; my cat can probably qualify for a mortgage. :D

Jetskier:cool:

Same here, people used to practically have to jump through hoops to get a mortgage. I bought my house 20 years ago and it was that way, income requirements and ratios, etc. etc. etc. Then, of course, government deregulated the banking industry, and look what happened. Greed set in, the bigwigs are getting their million-dollar parachutes and the rest of us get the parachutes full of rips.

[jetskier]

Let's not forget our government's role in this debacle. I remember 5 to 10 years ago, many prominent mayors, congressmen and senators jumping up and down because banks were not writing low income people loans. They were threatening legislation and lawsuits. Well, they got their way and look what happened......

The house vote on the bailout bill failed and the market closed off 7%. It is continuing to fall in after hours trading. Let's see, we have a war, energy crisis, inflation and economic meltdown. Bet the development at the lake slows way way down.

Jetskier:cool:

[Woodsy]

Its going to be fun watching the 401K evaporate... If this isnt somehow rectified and quickly the Great Depression II will be here shortly

Woodsy

[Silver Duck]

the flood of annoying unsollicited credit card applications has just about dried up! :laugh:

Let's keep the faith, folks. I somehow doubt that even the "idjits" in Washington will let us slip into another Great Depression.

Silver Duck

[TiltonBB]

In the 90's the liberals thought that everyone should own a home and encouraged the relaxation of lending standards. They loved things like 100% financing, seller concessions and reduced initial payments. Certainly not the loans that us "older folks" were offered when we bought our first house. However, those easy loans sounded real good to the low income, poor credit crowd.

Now you have the liberals blaming the lack of regulation for the problems we face. If the liberals never pushed for the reduced qualifications and no down payment loans we wouldn't have this problem. The whole housing crisis wouldn't exist, and all of us that enjoy working for a living would continue to grow and prosper. Hey, some people just weren't meant to own a home. I, for one, am sick of my tax dollars going to support those who don't make it on their own because they aren't willing to put the effort in.

As has been said before "the safety net has become a hammock".

[Flylady]

Here is way brokers and RE lenders were pushing unqualified buyers into houses they could not afford....the perfect storm....6 consecutive years of home appreciation in the 10% + per year. Wall street investment bankers came up with a new investment vehicle that was paying 10% and more for mid term investments. It was labeled mortgage backed securities and since the housing market was so strong investors couldn't loose since there was more supply than demand! Now lenders like Countrywide could make all the loans they wanted and package up the loans and sell them to investors (usually like Fannie or Freddie who then repackaged and resold the loans to smaller investors and investment banks to resell to their investors including some public retirement funds.. As long as banks like Countrywide, WaMU and World Savings had buyers for their mortgages is was like the goose laying the golden egg. More commissions for the RE agents and the loan agents and the banks. Everyone from wall street to the loan officers were rolling in the money and never thought about the market not being able to sustain the growth rate or what would happen to people when their rates adjusted. Sadly most of the players that made millions (wallstreet bankers) and mortgage industry executives pulled out 18 months ago when things started to slow so they are long gone. The only ones left holding the tab are the taxpayers.
Without the bailout bill to get the system moving again I fear what the outcome may be.

[Irish mist]

I was just informed that a new sub-division in Laconia slashed close to fifty thousand dollars off of two homes that are sitting there completed. The builder still has over 30 empty lots to fill up with homes in that sub-division.....something tells me that's not going to happen.
________
EARS NOSE & THROAT FORUMS (http://www.health-forums.org/ears-nose-throat/)

[Woodsy]

Its not just the real estate meltdown that is causing this.... and it certainly doesnt fall with the liberals either! Its a perfect financial storm... The 600 BILLION dollar war in Iraq, sub-prime lending, speculators driving up the price of oil, huge corporate mergers, etc... The list goes on!

The easy fix for the real estate crisis was for the banks & mortgage companies to work with the property owners and rewrite the notes to make them affordable. Who cares if they blow the note out from 30 years to 40 or 50? Some cash flow is better than no cash flow especially when your talking
physical property!

Make no mistake... you and I are going to pay for this mess. The estimate I heard this morning was that 1 TRILLION dollars evaporated yesterday... another TRILLION was expected to evaporate today! This our money, mom & dads retirement funds, college funds, savings! all gone!

Its going to be very interesting to watch what the govt decides to do next....

Woodsy

[chipj29]

Its not just the real estate meltdown that is causing this.... and it certainly doesnt fall with the liberals either! Its a perfect financial storm... The 600 BILLION dollar war in Iraq, sub-prime lending, speculators driving up the price of oil, huge corporate mergers, etc... The list goes on!

The easy fix for the real estate crisis was for the banks & mortgage companies to work with the property owners and rewrite the notes to make them affordable. Who cares if they blow the note out from 30 years to 40 or 50? Some cash flow is better than no cash flow especially when your talking
physical property!

Make no mistake... you and I are going to pay for this mess. The estimate I heard this morning was that 1 TRILLION dollars evaporated yesterday... another TRILLION was expected to evaporate today! This our money, mom & dads retirement funds, college funds, savings! all gone!

Its going to be very interesting to watch what the govt decides to do next....

Woodsy

I heard the same figures yesterday. $1 trillion. But then I thought...where does the money go? I know it sounds dumb, but that is a serious question. Did it ever exist in the first place, since it was loans?

[Woodsy]

I heard the same figures yesterday. $1 trillion. But then I thought...where does the money go? I know it sounds dumb, but that is a serious question. Did it ever exist in the first place, since it was loans?

The money existed in the form of investments that could be sold for cash....

Hypothetical (not really) situation... (this is happening all over as we speak)


Your have been saving money since your kid was born... you saved $100K for your kids college. What you really saved was $50K, but because you INVESTED the money in a fund, and Wall St. was doing good your savings grew to 100K!

Your kid started college this month....

So you decide to cash out and get some $$$ to pay the tuition.... and lo and behold your $100K has been vaporized overnight into $70K so now you can only afford to pay for 3 years of college instead of 4! and the fund is continously dropping precipitously in value by the day...

So you and (everybody else) yank whats left of your money out... enough people do that and the institution fails....

Go watch "It's A Wonderful Life".... its a pretty simple explanation of whats going on.... except on a much much larger scale....

Woodsy

[chipj29]

Thanks for the explanation Woodsy, makes perfect sense, and that is more or less what I was thinking.
However...if I had $100k, and now I only have $70k, where did my $30k go? If I had made the $30k instead of losing it, someone would have had to give it to me....

[SIKSUKR]

This economy has been a house of cards for some time now.It's very easy to blame the big guy lending institutions and Wall street traders and they should have their share but look in the mirror people.The reason we are in this situation is because most Americans have credit WAY beyond where they should.The bubble is about to bust and those us who knew better and did not over extend themselves are not in too bad of position.The problem is the rest of the over extended world will be taking us down with them like my retirement accounts.Boy Dad was soo right about staying out of high debt because when things go south you will be in a much better position.It's been hard to do when property looks like it will increase at a never ending rate and there is plenty of money to be made through speculation of higher property values.That's not reality and we now have deflation and lots of property owned upside down.Most of the people on this board are old enough to have seen the big deflation of the early 90's and what it did to the s&l's.This is now a much worse version and the stakes are higher.Bottom line.Don't buy what you can't afford to pay for if the economy goes in the crapper.

[Woodsy]

Chip...

Investing is not like a savings account that will pay a fixed rate... Investing is more like gambling, but with better odds! (usually)

Lets say you put $25 week/$100 a month into the US College Mutual Fund managed by CheezWhiz Brothers Financial. You did the research and at the time you started investing 18 years ago, it was a good fund returning 15% average on your investment... essentially the share value of the fund increased by 15% on average... over 18 years your cash contribution was $21,600... but because the fund has performed well you have more than doubled your money. What your really doing is buying shares of a fund...

Over the 18 years you have been investing you have accumulated 1000 shares of stock and its currently @ $100 share on NYSE

But what you don't know is the CheezWhiz made some questionable investing decisions with the fund money, investing the fund money in other companies who were buying and selling questionable loans... and for awhile this was a good idea, as the values of the companies the fund invested in rose! SO did the stock price of the US College Fund to its current $100 per share price...

But then the bubble popped. The value of the companies the fund invested in starts to plummet because those companies made bad investments themselves! The US College Mutual fund value (that you invested in) was trading at $100 a share starts to plummett as well. So the share price drops from $100 to $70 overnight... so your money vaporizes.... POOF!

Now have that scenario occur to millions of people and then you get why the bailout is a bitter but necessary evil....

Woodsy

[kjbathe]

Tilton BB and SIKSUKR have it right, IMO. It's convenient for folks to want to point fingers and assess blame, but those two actions fail to address a lack of personal responsibility.

Just because I "qualify" for a ridiculous loan, mortgage or credit card limit doesn't mean I should take it. And I don't think it's the bank's fault for offering it. They take the risk of not getting their money back when they offer those absurd instruments. And to date, I haven't heard of one single case where the borrower was forced, against their will, under duress, at gun point... to take on those debts! THAT IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF THIS WHOLE MESS.

It sounded great when Frank & Co. wanted everyone to have their own home. But as noted above, not everyone can afford to or should have their own home. But that's not a de-regulation issue. It's not a bank issue. It's a personal issue to take on a loan you can't afford to pay. Sure, it's a little sketchy for a bank to offer an interest-only mortgage payment. But if you don't understand what that means and are foolish enough to think it's the right lending instrument for your needs, well, that's your issue, not the lender's.

"Bailout" has a nice ring to it, but it's not really what DC is trying to do right now. It's more of a giant loan backed by every taxpayer in the US. We, as a whole, have much more financial capacity working together to buy these bad loans, get them off the books of the financial institutions, hold on to them for 5, 10 or 15+ years, then sell them off when they are worth the paper they are printed on. For example, we, the US taxpayers, buy the $250k mortgage from Bank A on the property currently worth only $150k due to the declining market, hold it, and some day down the road when it's worth $240k, $250, or maybe even $260k, we sell it. So we're not throwing our money away, but we -- the taxpayers -- are putting our skin in the game to help everyone involved until everyone settles down, stops panicking, and we get some stability back into the market.

So here we are today waiting on DC to solve all our ills. Never a comfortable spot to be when we're looking for Washington to employ the common sense and fiscal prudence we need right now. It's ugly. And I'm not sure what the solution is. Personally, I'd like to see some banks fail. If you invested heavily on risky loans and bought a book of business that included mortgage instruments that the lenders couldn't afford to pay, well, that's business. I just personally don't think our government should be in the mortgage business, but that ship sailed long ago. And the best idea I've heard to date is to offer a form of insurance to help companies, but not put cash on the table right now. Increase the FDIC of $100k to $1M, stop folks from running on the banks, and not force through some legislation that we really haven't thought through completely. After all, the "houses for everyone" legislation took a long time to pass. Can you image the ramifications 10 years from now of something we threw together in 10 days? :laugh:

Keep doing what you're doing. Keep working. Keep saving what you can. And if you can afford it, now is a great time to be getting IN, not OUT, of the market. Buy low, after all. But probably best to stay away from bank stocks at the moment. ;)

[dpg]

Oh yes a bad economy...I dropped 10 K last night alone in my 401K doesn't get any better than that. :eek:

[sa meredith]

I am posting this story from 1999 (that's right, 1999) from the New York post.
Although it may seem like a tedious read, you have to read down to the part where the finacial expert states what will have to happen if the sub-prime mortgages go bad...talk about seeing the future.
This was written 9 years ago.


Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending
By STEVEN A. HOLMES
Published: September 30, 1999
In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.

The action, which will begin as a pilot program involving 24 banks in 15 markets -- including the New York metropolitan region -- will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify for conventional loans. Fannie Mae officials say they hope to make it a nationwide program by next spring.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

In addition, banks, thrift institutions and mortgage companies have been pressing Fannie Mae to help them make more loans to so-called subprime borrowers. These borrowers whose incomes, credit ratings and savings are not good enough to qualify for conventional loans, can only get loans from finance companies that charge much higher interest rates -- anywhere from three to four percentage points higher than conventional loans.

''Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer. ''Yet there remain too many borrowers whose credit is just a notch below what our underwriting has required who have been relegated to paying significantly higher mortgage rates in the so-called subprime market.''

Demographic information on these borrowers is sketchy. But at least one study indicates that 18 percent of the loans in the subprime market went to black borrowers, compared to 5 per cent of loans in the conventional loan market.

In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.

''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''
Under Fannie Mae's pilot program, consumers who qualify can secure a mortgage with an interest rate one percentage point above that of a conventional, 30-year fixed rate mortgage of less than $240,000 -- a rate that currently averages about 7.76 per cent. If the borrower makes his or her monthly payments on time for two years, the one percentage point premium is dropped.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, does not lend money directly to consumers. Instead, it purchases loans that banks make on what is called the secondary market. By expanding the type of loans that it will buy, Fannie Mae is hoping to spur banks to make more loans to people with less-than-stellar credit ratings.

Fannie Mae officials stress that the new mortgages will be extended to all potential borrowers who can qualify for a mortgage. But they add that the move is intended in part to increase the number of minority and low income home owners who tend to have worse credit ratings than non-Hispanic whites.

Home ownership has, in fact, exploded among minorities during the economic boom of the 1990's. The number of mortgages extended to Hispanic applicants jumped by 87.2 per cent from 1993 to 1998, according to Harvard University's Joint Center for Housing Studies. During that same period the number of African Americans who got mortgages to buy a home increased by 71.9 per cent and the number of Asian Americans by 46.3

[chipj29]

Thanks Woodsy. :)
I know I am asking dumb questions, and I accept it for what it is. I am an educated guy, and actually am kinda smart. I am just lacking the skills pertaining to investments and the economy etc. Never been a strong suit of mine. I do follow my 401k, and have it spread out over 5 funds, plus my company stock. Fortunately most of my nest egg is not controlled by me, and is strictly in municipal bonds, so I don't have to worry about my 401k so much.

[Jan]

I remember 5 to 10 years ago, many prominent mayors, congressmen and senators jumping up and down because banks were not writing low income people loans. They were threatening legislation and lawsuits. Well, they got their way and look what happened......Incredibly, there was not one word in the bailout bill that failed yesterday about stopping those insane lending practices. Barney Frank and other Democrats want them to continue.

In 2004 many Republicans and regulators were begging to reform Freddie and Fannie but were repeatedly blocked by the Democrats. They wouldn't even allow a vote on the proposed reforms. Watch this closely before you blame Republicans for this mess. Watch it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&e

[HUH]

Why would we bailout lending institutions for their mismanagement. Years of no doc and low doc loans, not to mention credit cards have allowed people to borrow way beyond their means. I say let the house of cards tumble.

[Irish mist]

I'm old enough to remember the "usury laws". The usury laws were taken off of the books im 1980. They need to be applied again. It's at best amoral to unleash the wealthy to prey on the middle, and lower-middle class with 22% interest rates. Usury laws have been with us since biblical times, and a moral society should never allow these credit goons to gain money from citizens that the local mafia vig guy could only dream of getting !
________
Vapolution Vaporizer (http://www.vaporshop.com/vapolution-vaporizer.html)

[ITD]

This mess was caused by greedy crooks lending money to people who did not have the means to pay the loan back, it's really that simple. No doc loans, no credit check, no employment verification, all these schemes caused an implosion when the people who got the loans could not make the payments. Wall street bundled them up into bonds, twisted arms to get them rated AAA and sold them, many to oversea investors who didn't know any better. People should be going to jail for this.

Most of these people who got the loans knew what they were doing also but did it anyway. I'm still on the fence about this bailout, I think it needs to be done to prevent a run on the banks and a full blown depression, but on the other hand these banks and lending institutions really do need to die.

[VitaBene]

I think there are a lot of people to blame on both sides of the aisle. Unfortunately, sometimes political correctness goes awry- and the middle class pays. Interesting story in the Globe http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/09/28/franks_fingerprints_are_all_over_the_financial_fia sco/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed2

[jeffk]

Thanks Woodsy. :)
I know I am asking dumb questions, and I accept it for what it is. I am an educated guy, and actually am kinda smart. I am just lacking the skills pertaining to investments and the economy etc. Never been a strong suit of mine. I do follow my 401k, and have it spread out over 5 funds, plus my company stock. Fortunately most of my nest egg is not controlled by me, and is strictly in municipal bonds, so I don't have to worry about my 401k so much.

Many years ago my great Uncle made quite a bit of money on stock investments. He told me a little then about investing in stocks and I have learned a bit more on my own. Back in his day most stocks were in companies that manufactured things. The people that bought those stocks carefully looked at the company and it's business. If a company made farm equipment it was possible to estimate the market needs for new farm equipment and the likelihood that a particular company would prosper or not. The people that invested were interested in the real ability of a company to do business, essentially to sell its products, make a profit, and grow.

That is no longer true.

Value of a company's stock today is largely based on opinion of the stock's glamor. Since the stock (or really any type of investment) value is opinion based the value can shift very rapidly. To add to the power of this opinion is the fact that a lot of stock is managed by large investment firms. When they decide a stock has lost its glamor they start to unload it and that drives the price down, almost a self fulfilling prophecy.

The practical reality is this. I own a piece of paper that says I have rights to shares of XYZ company. Although it actually is a "piece" of the company, its value may have little to do with the actual physical value of the real company. So today, with everyone's good opinion of XYZ those shares are worth $10,000. Tomorrow, people hear something they don't like about XYZ company, perhaps that one of their biggest customers has cut their order by 50%. The glamor of the stock fades, some institutional investors dump the stock, and presto-chango the shares are now only worth $6,000. $4,000 in value has been "lost"! Where did it go? It wasn't real to begin with, it was based on an opinion of value which can vanish overnight.

However, what has really changed? XYZ company still exists. It is still doing business. It is likely that the company will make up the lost sales by finding new customers or selling more to existing customers, companies do this all the time. The real value of the company has changed little however the glamor of the company is in someone else's perception and subject to the whims of the investment community. Companies have become like celebrities, popular one day, ignored the next.

The same applies to housing value which is at the center of this crisis. When people who can afford their housing own property they aren't forced into selling it at bad prices. Prices go up or down but they float through the changes because they don't need to sell.

People who couldn't afford the house they bought get forced out. Since they can't be picky about the price they get, or the bank forecloses on them the house is sold for less than it's original value. When this happens rarely, someone gets a good deal on a house and that's it. When it happens frequently because poor lending practices have been institutionalized by the federal government it starts to depress all house prices. People that are buying see that many houses that used to sell for $400,000 are now selling for $340,000 and that is all they will pay. Now everyone's $400,000 house is only worth $340,000. If you need to sell you have "lost" $60,000. What changed? Your house is still the same, same rooms, same location, same climate. The only thing that has changed is the buyer's opinion of your house's value.

So where did the money go? It wasn't real to begin with. Until the money makes your fingers green it isn't real.

This is the "risk" in investments today. Hoping you call sell before the glamor fades. Hollywood investments.

[nj2nh]

I don't pretend to even begin to understand this mess, but I think this is what the goverment should have explained. The bailout plan was designed to keep the economy from crashing by buying the assets of the failing companies. When the economy turns around, then the government sells the assets. In the end, it would probably not cost the taxpayers anything or only very little. So, the government isn't pouring money into Wall Street or Main Street. People who ask why the government isn't paying their bills rather than saving the corporate hot shots just don't get it.

By the by, the $750 million bailout is far less money than the $1.2 trillion that simply vanished when the stock market lost those 700 plus points yesterday. Makes you think.

Remember, though, I don't follow this too closely although I probably should. Too depressing.

nj2nh

[sa meredith]

Stock market is (on a very basic level) made up of two parts.
Expectation (speculation) and earnings (a stocks true value).
The stock price rises as people expect (speculate) the stocks earnings (the stocks actual value) to rise. AAAAhhhhhh, but when expectation does not equal earnings, you have a fault, that eventually needs to be corrected...which, of course, is why it is called a "market correction".
And this time the market is correcting, and correcting, and correcting, and correcting, and correcting.....get it?
Most of these stocks were never valued at the price people speculated they would one day be worth. Never. Never even close. Why, then, would people but the stocks. They didn't know they were. You see, most American workers contribute each week to this magical thing called a 401K. They don't really know were the money is going...they just know that 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 percent disappears each week from their check (gross, not net, so pre tax) and goes into some pool (for lack of a better word), and then once a quarter they get a statement from some faceless money management company, and for many many years the return on these investments was effortlessly huge (or at least very good) so, why question it. Keep on going, keep on giving...
Well, those real dollars we all contributed, were not treated as real dollars by brokers, and market speculators who produced fake balance sheets (see: Enron et all) who continue to trade with our dollars, and buy into false expectations, with our real dollars....and now, well, thanks for playing. Please see the man at the door to settle all accounts. You're money???Well, uummm...about that....

[sa meredith]

Even the most optimistic person has to recognize the significance of what is happening around us. I mean, real estate, the market crash, Wachovia Bank actaully failing. The only safe investment right now is probably a Treasury Note...currently returning 1 to 1.25 percent (so $10 on every 1000). It is probably the equivalent of putting your money under the mattress, but it's safe.
Don't want to be the voice of gloom and doom...but I would say things are going to continue to get worse, very much so, before they get better.
I know I can't hold out much longer...my reserve cash supply continues to take a hit month after month, as I try to maintain some type of quality of life...but give it another year or so...and man, I've got to start all over. Sounds fun!

[Pineedles]

The "experts" have given you all their perspective of what this recent market flucuation is all about. If you are 5 years or less away from retirement and you have lost more than 20% of the value of your portfolio it is unbalanced! See your broker! Rebalace it, you have too much risk as you near retirement. BTW, it may not be your brokers fault, you may have told him that you are very risk/reward tolerant. If any other situation exists, don't look at your portflio, just watch the sunup and sunset, you will be fine. BTW, I am not connected to the Financial Services business in any way.

Just a semi-educated guy who is 13 years away from retirement and he will be adding bonds to his portfolio in 5 years. But not before!

[Waterbaby]

Thanks Woodsy. :)
I know I am asking dumb questions, and I accept it for what it is. I am an educated guy, and actually am kinda smart. I am just lacking the skills pertaining to investments and the economy etc. Never been a strong suit of mine. I do follow my 401k, and have it spread out over 5 funds, plus my company stock. Fortunately most of my nest egg is not controlled by me, and is strictly in municipal bonds, so I don't have to worry about my 401k so much.

Only dumb answers, as the old adage goes. Keep asking your questions, it never hurts to learn something new. I understand a lot of this stuff intuitively, but would totally be unable to answer some of the questions cause it's kind of hard to do that when I understand it "in my head" but can't get the words right to have someone understand it, if that makes any sense. You're getting some good, very clear answers here!

[chipj29]

Some excellent explanations and discussion going here...good stuff gang! Many thanks!

Now who wants to tell me where 15% of my 401k went yesterday? :(

[SAMIAM]

I remember,I couple of years ago.when Wachovia Bank announced they were "reaching out" to the illegal....oops,I meant undocumented immigrant community with loans and accounts without proof of residence.Looks like they reached a little too far.
Now,all of the sleazy politicians expect us to pony up.......they were elected to represent US, but don't care that the public is overwhelmingly opposed to the bail out.

[SIKSUKR]

Very impressed with the level of knowledge on this board of how this mess has happened.Methinks that people that play in water are very smart at knowing how NOT to drown and the Capt boneheads usually are the ones that get into trouble and need the Marine Patrol to bail them out because they had no idea what issues might arise out there.Yes,there is an analogy or something like that with that statement.It must be George Bush and the GOP's fault that guy on Long lake ran over those 2 poor people!

[brk-lnt]

Now who wants to tell me where 15% of my 401k went yesterday? :(

It went to people like me who have kept 6 figure cash reserves waiting for this day.

PS, thanks.

PPS (no offense meant ;) )

[sa meredith]

It went to people like me who have kept 6 figure cash reserves waiting for this day.

PS, thanks.

PPS (no offense meant ;) )

It went to you? Are you "short selling" stocks?
Keeping A strong cash postion is a good idea, but how that helped you realize some gain by the decline is puzzling.
Do tell...
Perhaps you are indeed short selling, or maybe you bought some "puts" awhile back. If so, nice forward thinking.

[ITD]

It went to people like me who have kept 6 figure cash reserves waiting for this day.

PS, thanks.

PPS (no offense meant ;) )


If you kept it in cash, then you got nothing, in fact your cash's value just shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. Balanced portfolio is the answer, if you have 6 figures in cash, you should have one.

[dpg]

SA Meredith...Keeping some cash on hand allows you to buy into the market when it has a large drop (777) points is a HUGE drop to say the least. I guess you can say I "short sell" in my 401K all the time. I buy into the "DOW" fund in my plan (401K) let it go up a hundred points then move it all out. After you just wait for it to come down and do it again. I am not in the financial "biz" but have averaged 15% returns for the last three years (since I started doing this.) Double-Digit returns in any 401K or IRA is relatively simple to achieve. If your not AT LEAST into double-digit returns (10+%) every year your doing something wrong. I say 3 years cause I've only started doing this for that long and started putting my 401K front and center. My best year has been 23.3% and lowest was 14.2%. This year I won't break 10% but hey look around, what "average Joe" will? :( Next year I'm guaranteed to be right there again. I know this cause I got away from my strategy in the first quarter of '08 and watched my account go to -8% never again. ;) I'm almost 48 and hope (and expect) to be at a cool million dollar balance by my middle 50's....That's my goal. This strategy is not for the faint of heart moving around six figures into a fund that drops doesn't feel too good. For me the rewards have out-weighed the losses.

[Island-Ho]

Good thread. One of the problems I'm hearing about is the inability of small companies to routinely borrow funds to pay salaries etc. This really sounds like a poor way to run a business to me. What happened to the profits from all the past good years? Must have been pulled out/paid to owner so he could buy his lakefront McMansion and GFBL. We need more responsible company management, large and small, not relying on someone elses money(credit) all the time.
There is an independent gas station near me that has gone out of business twice in the last two years. It's now back in operation selling gas at $3.36! (In MASS) on a cash basis only. He either could not get credit for the operation, or chose to bypass the enormous cost of dealing in credit cards all day. Yes, it takes a good deal of money (credit) to get going, but credit should not be necessary for continued responsible operation. Maybe we need to get back on a cash basis for routine stuff and cut up the credit cards! :)

[Pineedles]

Good thread. One of the problems I'm hearing about is the inability of small companies to routinely borrow funds to pay salaries etc. This really sounds like a poor way to run a business to me. What happened to the profits from all the past good years? Must have been pulled out/paid to owner so he could buy his lakefront McMansion and GFBL. We need more responsible company management, large and small, not relying on someone elses money(credit) all the time.
There is an independent gas station near me that has gone out of business twice in the last two years. It's now back in operation selling gas at $3.36! (In MASS) on a cash basis only. He either could not get credit for the operation, or chose to bypass the enormous cost of dealing in credit cards all day. Yes, it takes a good deal of money (credit) to get going, but credit should not be necessary for continued responsible operation. Maybe we need to get back on a cash basis for routine stuff and cut up the credit cards! :)

Small companies and large companies maintain cash flow with a LOC (line of credit) because business is cyclical, and yes it is used sometimes to pay salaries. It is not a poor way to run a business. As for the past good years, you often plow the profits back into the business so you can grow. THIS is responsible management! If there is enough profit then what's wrong with a McMansion or a GFBL? Nothing!

[brk-lnt]

If you kept it in cash, then you got nothing, in fact your cash's value just shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. Balanced portfolio is the answer, if you have 6 figures in cash, you should have one.

My portfolio is rather large and rather well balanced.

My answer was purposefully somewhat off the cuff. For every stock seller there is a buyer. I have honestly been waiting for some of these selloffs, to pick up certain stocks "at a discount".

You are correct that his loss did not "directly" go to me in any transactions this week. And if people did not sell their stock, then their loss is only on paper, and will likely be made back as the market rebounds.

I was sort of trying to stay out of this because I don't have the time to write out all the data and details and explanations as some others have done much more effectively. My personal finances are split between a professional wealth manager (who has managed to do very well for me through all this) and some lumps that I manage on my own (or actually on "our" own, as my wife is a financial analyst by profession and knows more than a thing or two about all this as well).

[Irish mist]

I'm no fan of FDR, but it was a wise decesion to enact the Glass-Steagal Act, and it was a very unwise decesion to take that act off the books. The Glass-Steagal act kept investment banking separte from commerical banking.....once commerical banking became involved with investment banking the sharks took over, and packaged all these loans in exotic, and liquid products that they sold all over the world.

I'm pleased to see that most of our local NH banks learned their lesson from the 80s housing boom and remain in good shape. A good investment for you folks near retirement is municipal bonds. NH bond funds are double tax free (state & federal) and out of state bond funds are federal tax free.
________
Toyota Tf104 History (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_TF104)

[ITD]

My portfolio is rather large and rather well balanced.

My answer was purposefully somewhat off the cuff. For every stock seller there is a buyer. I have honestly been waiting for some of these selloffs, to pick up certain stocks "at a discount".

You are correct that his loss did not "directly" go to me in any transactions this week. And if people did not sell their stock, then their loss is only on paper, and will likely be made back as the market rebounds.

I was sort of trying to stay out of this because I don't have the time to write out all the data and details and explanations as some others have done much more effectively. My personal finances are split between a professional wealth manager (who has managed to do very well for me through all this) and some lumps that I manage on my own (or actually on "our" own, as my wife is a financial analyst by profession and knows more than a thing or two about all this as well).

Nice job, I kind of figured as much, thank god for muni bonds in times like this, although they'll probably be next.....

[jrc]

Depending on your tax bracket muni bonds can be a good deal. As taxes go up next year they will be a better investment.

The problem is finding NH tax free muni bonds. There just aren't that many. So many purchase Puerto Rico muni bonds. Tax free in every state.

[beaner]

What happened to the profits from all the past good years?

For a lot of small businesses, a very large chunk of money is going right out the door every month for health insurance premiums. In our case, we've experienced double-digit increases every year for many years, despite having only two single, healthy, non-smoking employees. We raise deductibles and lower benefits year after year, but it seems there's no end in sight.

We set up HSAs, but found that they offer only a negligible premium decrease for the employer, along with a lot of record-keeping and expense for the employee. HSAs are simply a means to shift the cost from the employer to the employee - hardly a solution to a real and growing problem.

[Irish mist]

Depending on your tax bracket muni bonds can be a good deal. As taxes go up next year they will be a better investment.

The problem is finding NH tax free muni bonds. There just aren't that many. So many purchase Puerto Rico muni bonds. Tax free in every state.

Good points. I own some California munis. Because of the problems out there they offer some very high rates. I believe NH has only one muni bond fund, but there should be enough single NH general obligation bonds that can be purchased.
________
F platform (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_F_platform)

[Mr. Prop-B-Gone]

Apologies if this seems off topic given the recent posts, but......

It seems to me that the most recent Bailout, Rescue, whatever, works like this. The government takes our money and gives it to the banks so that they can lend it back to us at a profit. Gee, what a great country. No wonder my father wanted me to be a banker!

As to the drop in the market, well, if you didn't sell your shares you still have exactly what you had when you bought them. X% of that company. The only people who lost money were the speculators who panicked and sold out.

Remember, investing is just another form of gambling. You knew going in that there was no guarantee that you would win. If you were to bet the mortgage money on a horse race and lose, no one would even consider bailing you out.

Its time these Bozos in Washington started rewarding the people who did things right instead of shoveling all our hard earned money at the people who knowingly did this to us.

Whew! I feel better now! Thanks for listening!

[hockeypuck]

My question is: If the "Bail Out" passes and the government buys some (many) bad mortgages and now owns some (many) foreclosed property, who is going to manage the property? The usual chain of events for unoccupied homes is that the grounds grow wild, the lawn is 3 feet tall, birds and vermin take up residence, local kids do some mischief, vandals do some real damage, drug users may take up residence. The value of the property continues to fall. The local government has problems finding or contacting the owner. My point is that the Fed. Gov. is too large to manage individual properties, and properties will be lost in the red tape. Maybe this will be a new business in the making, the management of government properties.

[VitaBene]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_Trust_Corporation

I think the plan is to set a group up like the Resolution Trust Corp that was set up during the last RE bust/ banking meltdown.

[tis]

hockey. And the fed sells it for a dime on the dollar and we are stuck with the loss. We expect the gov. to do it better than a bank?????

[jetskier]

My question is: If the "Bail Out" passes and the government buys some (many) bad mortgages and now owns some (many) foreclosed property, who is going to manage the property? The usual chain of events for unoccupied homes is that the grounds grow wild, the lawn is 3 feet tall, birds and vermin take up residence, local kids do some mischief, vandals do some real damage, drug users may take up residence. The value of the property continues to fall. The local government has problems finding or contacting the owner. My point is that the Fed. Gov. is too large to manage individual properties, and properties will be lost in the red tape. Maybe this will be a new business in the making, the management of government properties.

Hi Hockeypuck,

The government will take the assets and start selling them off. This will create a secondary market in the properties as they will be sold in larger lots to brokers and then likely broken down and sold to smaller investors. Clearly, these properties will sell extremely inexpensively as this is a fire sale and there will be costs to clean up the properties and resell them.

So the properties get sold, cleaned up and ultimately end up on the retail market. Everyone along the chain is trying to make money. As the taxpayer we probably only get a small piece of the action.

Jetskier:cool:

[Mike M.]

It all comes back to personal responsibility.

No one was forced to take a mortgage for more than they could afford to pay back. From the push of too much government regulation we have created part of this mess. A quote from the article sa_meredith shared:

“Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.”

This lifestyle of living beyond our means is unfortunately unsustainable and quickly coming to an end. This problem is not isolated to the housing market; it is visible in all parts of the economy. Car leases, credit cards, loans for everything. Everyone is over extending themselves and one day these bills will all be due.

To put it simply we are maxed out.

What is the problem with the housing market, why aren’t homes selling?

Housing values kept getting pushed up by easy credit during the housing bubble. Now we reached a point where the housing market is trying to reset itself to there true market values.

Regardless of what we do now it’s going to be painful but I believe we need to let these assets reset. In addition to giving Paulson unchecked powers to spend our money, the bailout is going to prop up the housing market and the same banks that practiced poor lending practices in the first place. These are the same people who led us into this mess and now we are going to trust them to give us the solution to get us out of it?

Besides what the 850 billion dollar bailout will cost us on the surface, we need to consider the cost it will have to our dollar. Very few people are considering the effects this bailout will have on our buying power. This is going to affect the poor and people on fixed incomes the most.

The Federal Reserve (Private bank, not elected by the people, taxation without representation?) is going to create this money out of thin air like always, further debasing our dollar and driving up the price of everything in the process. The inflation tax in addition to the close to a trillion dollars is something we can not afford.

If we don’t bailout the banks what will happen according to the president?

The credit market will freeze up and it’ll be difficult to acquire credit.
-It will be, but easy credit is the reason we are in this mess.

If we don’t pass the bailout our 401k will suffer and our retirement will be in jeopardy.
-If we do pass this bill it is going to lower the value of our buying power with our 401k anyway. Without addressing the actual problem that caused this mess, we can expect we will have to bailout more companies in the future, further lowering the value of our 401ks.

Until we address the bubbles we create from the Federal Reserve and fiat money we will not be able to solve our economic problems. We at the very least need to have some congressional oversight of the fed to make sure they are making the best decisions for us.

Every time the fed puts more money into the financial system they are devaluing our money.

The bailouts solution to the problem is to pump-in (create) another 850 billion into the system to cover assets that are essentially worthless. If these assets had any true value we wouldn’t have to bail them out. (The whole idea of these assets giving us a return in the future is faulty. The reason we are bailing them out in the first place is because of a credit bubble that drove the prices up over true market value.) So the bailout is going to save the system by means of more fiat money, driving our living standard down more?

We need to allow the free market to work this out without government interference. If we keep patching the problem rather than fix it, we are only going to enlarge the bubble and make it that much more painful when it finally does burst.

An appropriate quote from Thomas Jefferson:
“The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.”

[tis]

You are so right Mike M. Personal responsibility is such a big thing! I also agree, we need to allow this to play out without government interference. The more the government gets into our lives the worse things get. This would only be the first step. I don't know if they really know what will help.

[Mr. Prop-B-Gone]

Anyone else see the quarter page ad Laconia Savings Bank ran in the Union Leader today? In a nut shell it says "We didn't make sub prime mortgages, we didn't lend to Wall Street, and because we lent our money wisely we have plenty of capitol and we are still making loans."

Judging by today's mail Amex still wants me for a customer and Countrywide still wants to lend me more money.

So, if this is the trend with the Main Street banks, where's the problem? Sure smells like Wall Street.

This money is coming from one place. The printing presses. The net effect will be to instantly devalue the US Dollar by about 10%. At the same time, a substantial portion of this bail out money will go to foreign investors, not Americans. I'm sure that will help the country!

On tonight's WMUR news Carol Shea Porter is saying she likes the bill now because it contains "money for disaster victims". Funny, but I seem to remember that there was NO money for the individuals who's homes were damaged in the tornado and floods here in New Hampshire.

Sweetening this bill with things like tax cuts, disaster relief, FDIC insurance expansion and the like is nothing more than legislative terrorism. If these are good things they should be voted in anyway, and not used as pork to grease this bill in. And of course, no one is saying just how much extra these things will add to the cost of this bill.

Even if the Feds get a great deal on these distressed properties and make money when they sell them do you really think that they will use that money to repay the debts they ran up? If so, I have just two words for you: Social Security.

I hope everyone who dislikes this bill will call Carol Shea Porter at (202) 225-5456 tomorrow and let her know that if she votes for this bill, you won't vote for her. Pass the number on to your friends.

[Orion]

There was $160B of added pork to buy the votes needed to pass this bill. I say vote the whole bunch out. We're headed down the long slide. Should be able to buy some cheap waterfront in the next year.....if you still have any money.:(

[This'nThat]

I am posting this story from 1999 (that's right, 1999) from the New York post.
"Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer.".
And who is Franklin D. Raines?

He is accused by The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight OFHEO), the regulating body of Fannie Mae, of abetting widespread accounting errors, which included the shifting of losses so senior executives, such as himself, could earn large bonuses
On December 21, 2004 Raines accepted what he called "early retirement" from his position as CEO while U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission investigators continued to investigate alleged accounting irregularities
In 2006, the OFHEO announced a suit against Raines in order to recover some or all of the $90 million in payments made to Raines based on the overstated earnings
In an editorial in August 27, 2008 titled "Tough Decision Coming", the Washington Post editorial staff wrote that "Two members of Mr. Obama's political circle, James A. Johnson and Franklin D. Raines, are former chief executives of Fannie Mae."

[Mink Islander]

It there is one thing we should all be able to agree on, it's that the level of partisan bickering and finger pointing in this country is completely debilitating to solving the problems the country faces today. There is no Party and no Party Leader from the President on down, Republican or Democrat who is without blame for the current mess. So rather than try to seek to place blame and light the partisan fires, how about we all seek to rise above that and work together constructively to find a long term solution.

I've been so glad to see this forum revive itself from the depths of extreme nastiness regarding the speed limit debate.

Let's not go down that path on this topic, okay?

[Mee-n-Mac]

There is no Party and no Party Leader from the President on down, Republican or Democrat who is without blame for the current mess.

... the above is it. Both parties have had their hand in this cookie jar for years. Just like the upcoming Social Securty mess it's been years in the making. And FWIW the major blame doesn't even go to the pols ... it goes to all those people who decided they'd live beyond what their means and commonsense dictate. You can fault the police for not catching the bank robber but let's not forget who robbed the bank in the first place.

[secondcurve]

It there is one thing we should all be able to agree on, it's that the level of partisan bickering and finger pointing in this country is completely debilitating to solving the problems the country faces today. There is no Party and no Party Leader from the President on down, Republican or Democrat who is without blame for the current mess. So rather than try to seek to place blame and light the partisan fires, how about we all seek to rise above that and work together constructively to find a long term solution.

I've been so glad to see this forum revive itself from the depths of extreme nastiness regarding the speed limit debate.

Let's not go down that path on this topic, okay?


Well said. It's time many of us looked in the mirror.

[fatlazyless]

With the loss of 140 manufactoring jobs, the Freudenberg factory in Laconia is scheduled to close due to the big drop in sales of pickup trucks and SUV's. Freudenberg makes car parts, www.citizen.com, in an acre sized building at the Laconia Industrial Park.

So, where can the 140 employees go to find replacement union manufactoring jobs?

Who's hiring? Not Molex in Gilford. Not Packard in Ashland. Not Anna Lee in Meredith. Not Norton Pike in Littleton. Not Wasau Paper in Groveton. Not Hitchener in Littleton. They have closed.

Maybe at the huge new federal prison being built, up north, in Berlin? Goodbye manufactoring.....hello new prison....how's that for a message?

[sa meredith]

With the loss of 140 manufactoring jobs, the Freudenberg factory in Laconia is scheduled to close due to the big drop in sales of pickup trucks and SUV's. Freudenberg makes car parts, www.citizen.com, in an acre sized building at the Laconia Industrial Park.

So, where can the 140 employees go to find replacement union manufactoring jobs?

Who's hiring? Not Molex in Gilford. Not Packard in Ashland. Not Anna Lee in Meredith. Not Norton Pike in Littleton. Not Wasau Paper in Groveton. Not Hitchener in Littleton. They have closed.

Maybe at the huge new federal prison being built, up north, in Berlin? Goodbye manufactoring.....hello new prison....how's that for a message?

It's funny...people have always enjoyed "poking fun" at the car business, and thinking, when business is bad..."too bad for them. They probably deserve it". Things like that. But most people have no idea how much the auto industry drives this country. Like the example above, of the plant in Laconia, the jobs that are dependent on people buying cars are countless. Not jobs at dealerships, but the "off shoot" jobs that are related to the auto industry.
I wish those 140 workers well...those 140 workers and all of the businesses in the area that are dependent on those workers having money to spend. And on and on it goes...

[This'nThat]

The Freudenberg factory in Laconia is scheduled to close. So, where can the 140 employees go to find replacement union manufactoring jobs? Who's hiring?
Who's hiring today? People who make money, that's who. People whose incomes are $100K, $200K, and above. Small businesses. Entrepreneurs.

Now, watch those people disappear when Obama kicks in his "tax the rich" policies. Money given to the government can not be used to expand a business and hire employees.

[tis]

This'n That-I heard that in the bill the Bush tax cuts become permanent. Does anyone know for sure? If so, it might at least be harder for Obama to raise the taxes, although he can still do it. I totally agree with you, let's see how much the gov. can ruing small business now!!!

[fpartri497]

With the loss of 140 manufactoring jobs, the Freudenberg factory in Laconia is scheduled to close due to the big drop in sales of pickup trucks and SUV's. Freudenberg makes car parts, www.citizen.com (http://www.citizen.com), in an acre sized building at the Laconia Industrial Park.

So, where can the 140 employees go to find replacement union manufactoring jobs?

Who's hiring? Not Molex in Gilford. Not Packard in Ashland. Not Anna Lee in Meredith. Not Norton Pike in Littleton. Not Wasau Paper in Groveton. Not Hitchener in Littleton. They have closed.

Maybe at the huge new federal prison being built, up north, in Berlin? Goodbye manufactoring.....hello new prison....how's that for a message?

:D Isint Walmart Hiring?????????

[Audiofn]

BOY did that almost 1 trillion dollars help out the markets.... It is obvious that the market does not like what the gov has in store for them. The dow was down 800 points at one point today. What was the last time that we saw money being tossed at something make it correct. Look at the Big Pig in Boston!! You know what the workers used to say there? "Hide and go seek for a thousand a week". They put money into this "bailout" for freeking wooden arrow research!!!!! We all have to live with this decision for a long long time. So now I not only get to pay for my house but for a lot of other peoples as well because they did not "understand" that when you work at McD's you can not buy a house that costs 700 grand!! Ok I am done now I think my brain is about to explode.

[GWC...]

They put money into this "bailout" for freeking wooden arrow research!!!!!

Ok I am done now I think my brain is about to explode.
Good thing you did not purchase any wooden arrows - $.39 tax on a $.30 arrow (that would really cause your brain to explode.:D). Now you know the real need for the adjustment for wooden arrows.

[HUH]

Great idea lets give everyone on welfare a mortgage as well :rolleye2::rolleye2:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9c0de7db153ef933a0575ac0a96f9582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

[sa meredith]

So the market closes up 900 plus today. And some of you guys were worried... (he said, tongue firmly in cheek)


Message to Lester: We GOTTA have this one.
Go Sox!

[jetskier]

So the market closes up 900 plus today. And some of you guys were worried... (he said, tongue firmly in cheek)


Message to Lester: We GOTTA have this one.
Go Sox!

The real question is whether this is a "dead cat bounce"? I certainly hope not!

Incidently, I don't think that you shouted loud enough for the Sox to hear you. After the Patriots game yesterday and the Sox game today I am actually glad to be heading to China tomorrow.

Jetskier:cool:

[Audiofn]

Now that people are realizing that it is not just US but the entire world that is hurting it does not seem so bad. Dollar got a LOT stronger in the last few days and this has more to do with England and other countries stepping up and injecting money along with the US. Most of that drop was panic driven by the media. Most companies are well run and sound. Now if they can address the business world getting loans then we should come out of this OK.

Were does a union guy go to get a union job? I am not a union guy but I do work with union guys a lot. IMO unions are a thing of the past. There is no doubt that they were needed but now they are ruining businesses by raising the costs of production to the point that companies in the US can not compete any more. My wife works for a huge fortune 50 company. They are laying many many people off. They moved production from a location in mass. and Utah over to Switzerland. Labor costs over there are much higher but the taxes are low. So what do people think will happen with Obama wants to raise them. IMO more manufacturing will run from this country.

My guess however is that this is a little bit of a dead cat bounce and expect it to drop again.

[SAMIAM]

Unions are the main reason that America has lost all of its jobs.Their wage,benifit and retirement demands have driven out millions of jobs.Don't blame the business'.In Detroit,for example....guy making $35 an hour running a rivet gun all day.Calls in sick on monday,stays stoned at work all week and takes off at noon on friday.They can't fire him because of the union.
Even around here it's noticable.Sysco drivers (non union0 work alone and unload a tractor trailer.Budweiser drivers (union) show up in a little box truck with at least two,sometimes three guys.We tease them when they show up...I ask them "Hey,who's the clipboard operator today"

[sa meredith]

Unions are the main reason that America has lost all of its jobs.Their wage,benifit and retirement demands have driven out millions of jobs.Don't blame the business'.In Detroit,for example....guy making $35 an hour running a rivet gun all day.Calls in sick on monday,stays stoned at work all week and takes off at noon on friday.They can't fire him because of the union.
Even around here it's noticable.Sysco drivers (non union0 work alone and unload a tractor trailer.Budweiser drivers (union) show up in a little box truck with at least two,sometimes three guys.We tease them when they show up...I ask them "Hey,who's the clipboard operator today"

Amen, amen, amen!
Although unions were needed, and indeed great things at one time, they now do nothing more than protect the slacker, and "over benefit" workers.
The sense of entitlement by an average union worker truly baffles me.

[EricP]

Seems to me that Unions have gone a bit far, not only that now that we have the DOL are they as neccessary as they used to be? They've become too powerful and can ruin a business.

I think recently I saw that Boeing was in real danger of bankruptcy and they lost an Air Force contract to Airbus. A lot of Americans cried foul because we lost to an overseas company and Americans were in danger of losing jobs. Congress I guess rethought the contract and gave it to Boeing, then a couple weeks later I hear that the Boeing workers are or may be going on strike. That is ridiculous, they came close to losing their jobs and now they strike? Seems stupid to me. I don't know the details of why they were striking, but it would seem trivial in light of losing your job coupled with the current economic conditions.

[Argie's Wife]

Forbes Magazine just named 3 NH communities - Concord, NH being one of the three communities (in a list of 10 communities!) - as "recession proof"...

Here's the article:

http://www.wmur.com/money/17735706/detail.html

[sea_n_ski]

Let's face it most of us are summer residents and spend a weekend here and there the rest of the year. We have always made it a point to do as much business as possible int he lakes region because we love it so much. I always fill up when in area. We buy things local to keep the businesses alive. We even go up to Mills Falls to do our Christmas shopping.

I just had the trim painted on my hours and the painter had no work. I felt bad, so I had him paint the main areas inside. Although it wasn't a big job, it made his day.

We always wait until we are around Meredith before we eat out or buy anything.

My point is if we don't support these local businesses they won't be there when we need them. Its got to be rough on the people who own businesses around the lake. Let's face it, regardless of what all the experts say good or bad, we are all tightening our belts and spending less.

We need to make sure when we support our local merchants. Spend the extra buck at the local hardware store instead of going to Home Depot back home.

This thing will turn around eventually. Until it does, those of us that are seasonal residents need to do everything we can to support the lake economy. Otherwise it will become a ghost town.

[SAMIAM]

Good for you Sea n Ski.....I'm with you there.Rarely go to a big box store.rather get great service for just a little more money....recently got new computers at Lakes Region Computer in center Harbor and got great service.Try calling Staples if you have a problem.

[KonaChick]

Let's face it most of us are summer residents and spend a weekend here and there the rest of the year. We have always made it a point to do as much business as possible int he lakes region because we love it so much. I always fill up when in area. We buy things local to keep the businesses alive. We even go up to Mills Falls to do our Christmas shopping.

I just had the trim painted on my hours and the painter had no work. I felt bad, so I had him paint the main areas inside. Although it wasn't a big job, it made his day.

We always wait until we are around Meredith before we eat out or buy anything.

My point is if we don't support these local businesses they won't be there when we need them. Its got to be rough on the people who own businesses around the lake. Let's face it, regardless of what all the experts say good or bad, we are all tightening our belts and spending less.

We need to make sure when we support our local merchants. Spend the extra buck at the local hardware store instead of going to Home Depot back home.

This thing will turn around eventually. Until it does, those of us that are seasonal residents need to do everything we can to support the lake economy. Otherwise it will become a ghost town.

I do agree with what you're saying and my husband and I try to do the same thing, however some "local" businesses have priced themselves right out of people's wallets. Anyone been to Jackson Star lately?? I don't think it's the summer or weekend people that make a difference so much but the year round people who have to pay the inflated prices all the time. They are the ones leaving to drive to Concord, Tilton, Conway to do their major shopping. The price gauging has got to stop if (some) local businesses want to stay competitive and thrive IMHO.

[sa meredith]

Well, as the starter of this thread, I felt it appropriate to post this.
On August 31st, the owner of the business I have worked for the past 21 years, will lock the doors, and will not be opening them on September 1st, or ever again.
A lot of blood, sweat, tears, and ass kissing as I climbed the ladder over the years. And now, to be kicked right off the ladder...oh well.
We certainly hung in there as long as we could, but in the end, the family owned business just can't go head to head with the superstore when it comes to big ticket items. Think "Home Depot" vs. "The Neighborhood Hardware Store".
So now I am a victim of the economy...but when one door closes, another opens...right?
Now, about those boat payments, fees for valet service, and the annual lease on the land for camp....

[Irish mist]

Terrible news. I hope you find some work quick.

[LIforrelaxin]

.......So now I am a victim of the economy...but when one door closes, another opens...right?......


Sorry to hear this, and I am sure it will not feel like it now, but in the end things do always happen for a reason.... I have been laid of twice in my career and both time, after a little struggle to get back on my feet have realized it was the kick I need to get myself going in a new direction.....

Hopefully things will fall into place for you best of luck

[tis]

I am very sorry for you too sa and your boss and your company as well. It is so sad and scary what is happening to this country! Is your company in NH?

[eillac@dow]

SA, I too feel very bad for you. It is a shame.

Things do happen for a reason and they will get better. I worked for the Gillette Company for 21 years and was let go about 2 years ago. I was able to take a year off and and have now been employed for 1 year.

I wish you the best.

[VitaBene]

Well, as the starter of this thread, I felt it appropriate to post this.
On August 31st, the owner of the business I have worked for the past 21 years, will lock the doors, and will not be opening them on September 1st, or ever again.
A lot of blood, sweat, tears, and ass kissing as I climbed the ladder over the years. And now, to be kicked right off the ladder...oh well.
We certainly hung in there as long as we could, but in the end, the family owned business just can't go head to head with the superstore when it comes to big ticket items. Think "Home Depot" vs. "The Neighborhood Hardware Store".
So now I am a victim of the economy...but when one door closes, another opens...right?
Now, about those boat payments, fees for valet service, and the annual lease on the land for camp....


SA that is really terrible, I wish you the best of luck in finding a position that will allow you to enjoy the things in life that you have worked hard for.

Like you, I have been through a few downturns in the economy. One of them ended up pushing me toward a new career. I hope it works out for you as well.

Best wishes

[Skip]

Let me add to the list of those expressing sympathy for your plight, and the demise of the local business you devoted so much of your life too.....

Its truly ashame to read stories such as yours, and it really jumps out at you when it happens to one of your friends, even though our friendship is internet related. It truly personalizes and puts a face to the mind numbing statistics that I read daily on-line and in the print press.

I wish you the best and am sure you will come out stronger in the end....:)

Skip

[hazelnut]

sa that is a bummer! Whereabouts do you reside full time. I'm not sure if you mentioned that to me. Might as well start networking right here on the forum. Ya never know who knows someone who knows someone.... :laugh:

Perhaps a job as a book reviewer is in order... You've done well by me that's for sure.

BTW, I'm finished with #3 and moving on to #4 in the series. Thanks again! :)

[twoplustwo]

...I hope a new opportunity is right around the corner. This economy is rough - I was laid off in October and have yet to find a full time job. I'm putting in time at 3 part-time jobs while I try to hang on. My husband builds houses for a living, so you can imagine what that's been like the past year. I've never seen anything like this. We keep telling each other things will turn around, we have to hang on to hope. We don't have much left to hang on to!! ;)

May that window open as the door closes.:)

[jmen24]

sa, thats is a shame to hear. It seems like every week I hear of someone new that has lost work. Keep your head up and better things will come from it.

[ILoveWinnipesaukee]

sa, as one that is 6 months removed from the "one door closes another opens" point, I am still looking for work myself. I know you cannot see the "things happen for a reason" issue right now, but believe me, it is for the best, you will never know while you live on this earth why you needed to lose the job at the point in time you did.

Maybe something bigger and better will come your way that you would not have even considered had you been working happily at your old job. Keep your chin up, and remember, even though it does not seem like it now, but there are people worse off than ourselves.

I will keep you in my prayers to find work quick along with myself and others in this forum who are in the same boat. Too bad we are not on a boat on the lake right now, but being among "friends" who know how we feel seems to help. ;)

[sa meredith]

I am simply floored by the kind words offered here on this forum...some by people I have never even met.
The post I made was simply meant to add to the "Bad Economy" aspect of the thread...but the responses are quite a different thing. And to be honest, make me a bit emotional...during what is already a very emotional time.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Being in sales for 22 years has certainly "hardened" me as a person, so I like to think I'll come out just fine.
It's just that, well, who wants to start out again at 42 Yrs old?
Uncharted territory for me...that's all.
Anyway...weather permitting, I'm going to try to bring the boat into Meredith Bay tommorow (blue and white Crown Line Bow Rider) at 8:30AM or so, hit George's for breakfast, and enjoy a bloody mary or two on the boat after. If anyone is in the area, and feels the need to quench their thirst, stop over and climb aboard. If it is rainy...well probably a no go.
Hazelnut...going to try to cruise over your way tommorow (Friday), late morning...I'll call your cell.
Again...thanks for the words of encouragement.
The forum comes thru yet again.

[elchase]

It is sad to read of the more and more people that the Stimulus is failing to help. Where are all these new and saved jobs? Where is all this debt we are leaving for our kids being used to our benefit? Perhaps if you want to go to work for Acorn recruiting illegal aliens to register under several different names to vote for the local Democratic candidates you can find some work. And while it is little consolation, the good side to being unemployed is that you get to send less of your earnings to DC to be redistributed. And now you can join the millions more that become dependents of society every day...now a majority of us. This is really sad.
I lost my job last year, but have been able to make more money shorting the stock market. Even as it inches back up in this phone recovery, there are many opportunities to turn the bad economy into a profit. It is unfortunate we have to turn to tactics like this to get by if we aren't willing to go on the dole. Socialism has its benefits though...pretty soon jobs will be unnecessary.
Sorry for the rant, but you pushed my button with this.

[jrc]

SA I found Linkedin to be a very good way to find old co-workers and network for new opportunities.

It can be very stressful trying to find a job and getting depressed is possible. You're only 42, you have plenty of time to do whatever you want.

Now is the time when you find out who your true friends are. A friend of mine just got layed off, luckly I could scramble a contract job for him, at least he has something to keep him afloat while he plans his next step. Maybe your friends have similar opportunities.

As a salesmen, you already know how to sell, your new job is to sell yourself. Sounds corny but it is true.

[Argie's Wife]

I'm so sorry about your job situation and hope you find something that exceeds your expectations.

I'll raise my bloody Mary to you tonight and wish you every good success in your job hunt efforts. :)

[Fishy Cover]

I majored in Economics in college and remember these definitions:

RECESSION: When your neighbor loses his job
DEPRESSION: When you lose your job.

I am self employed and thus cannot be laid off or fired.....nevertheless business is slow. And I can't blame the management!

They said " Smile, things could be worse" so I smiled----and things got worse.

Hope a little humor helps you cope.

[eillac@dow]

SA-

I wrote to you saying that I (also) had been let go after 21 years...something we both have in common.

Another thing we have in common...I was also 42. And let me tell you....I was scared to death. I thought it was the worst thing in the world. Low and behold, I found a new job and am much happier. You will do ok. Give it time and please....don't stress yourself out. Your in sales and like JRC said, you know how to sell...so just go sell everything you've have got to offer. You will be okay!.

Best.

Eillac@dow

[Meredith lady]

Times are tough all over and everyone is trying to make ends meet-hope you find something really soon!

[Chowdaguy]

Sa what industry do you have experience in?

[Winnigirl]

I'm so sorry sa! A job hunting site that I have found particularly helpful is www.indeed.com. Best of luck to you!

[SIKSUKR]

You can always help me park cars SA.:DYou know where it is.

[fatlazyless]

Here's a letter to the editor from the Friday October 2, Laconia Daily Sun that caught my attention. Interesting that a recent poll as reported on CNN had Wal-Mart as being the one national company best representing the current US economy....or something like that(?).
.....

"Sadly, we just can't afford to shop at our local stores anymore"

To the editor,

This is an open letter to all our local merchants.

I never ever thought I would be writing a letter like this but I feel that it is important to let the local merchants know why we can no longer 'totally' support them.

For years we refused to shop at stores like Walmart (sorry to pick on one store but I think it's important for my story) because we thought it's important to support the folks in our local community. Even if we paid a 'little more' for things we believed it was worth it because we were helping our neighbors and our friends and we always argued that they were good to the local community so we had to be supportive of them.

For the past 15 years we have been on a fixed income and we find that prices keep going up and up and up at a rate that we find we can no longer justify that thinking.

In fact, our very favorite restaurant that we have been supportive since the seventies (when we first stated to come up here) has finally out-priced itself to the point that we can no longer afford to go there! (We used to go there a couple times a month for years, then about six times a year since we retired). Now we can only go there if we receive a gift certificate! How sad is that?

We don't mind paying a 'little more for things' but we can no longer justify paying 20 cents more for an ear of corn or $2 more for a pint of strawberries and we are truly sorry about that.

We can no longer afford to do all our shopping at our local grocery store because even simple things like a bag of potato chips can be $1.50 less, in fact almost everything is a dollar or more less at a store like Walmart.

Like I said, we never minded paying 'a little' more but we just can't afford to pay 'a lot more'. And we are truly sorry about that.

Just wanted to let you know why you don't see us as often anymore. It's not that we don't like you and it's not that we don't want to support you it's just that we can't afford you anymore.

Had to get it off my mind!
Patricia Keegan
Center Harbor

[Yosemite Sam]

Studies show that for every two jobs created by a Wal-Mart store, the community loses three. Jobs that are retained by a community are merely shifted from local businesses to the giant retailer. A Congressional Research Service warned Congress that communities need to evaluate the significance of any job gains at big-box stores against any loss of jobs due to reduced business at competing retailers. The report also pointed out that these so-called new jobs "provide significantly lower wages then jobs in many industries, and are often only part-time positions, seasonal opportunities, or subject to extensive turnover." The Real Story is that when Wal-Mart moves into the neighborhood, it devours local businesses and lowers community living standards.

:(

[LakesRegionSpirit]

A columnist writing for the Concord Monitor writing about her experiences subsequent to her husband losing his job makes the same point as the Daily Sun letter writer. She used to shop the Concord Co-op but now goes to Wal-Mart and saves a lot of money.

I think this is the next big issue for local economies. Consumers can not be expected to continue to pay a premium for shopping at local businesses when their incomes are being lost.

I say this as someone who has, so far, shopped at Beans & Greens, Sunflowers, Wine'ing Butcher etc.

I have considered heading to Wal-Mart to check out their selection of organic products.

[BroadHopper]

I use to make good money and never worry about what items cost or think twice about going out.
I lost my job last year. Thirty three years in the defense electronics industry and my first lay off. Thanks to the democrats. I'm 59 with profound loss of hearing it has been extrremely difficult to get a job. Discrimination laws means nothing unless you can prove it. My resume is so strong, I don't have a problem getting interviews. I can never get past the initial interviews.
Indeed.com is a great place to find jobs. I do find a lot of job postings thst are old and already filled. There are also people 'fishing' by posing as jobs so beware! Be careful who you send your resume to.
Linkedin was valuable. I did get some interviews, but it is a great motivator when you realize you are not alone. Linkedin gives me great insight into where the jobs are.
Another great place to find jobs is the job board at the local college and or community college. This will tell you that there is age discrimination. Most of these jobs are not posted on the internet.
I rarely go out. I do take adavantage of coupons.com and restuarant.com T-Bones/Cactus Jack has a 55 plus program that helps. AARP is also a big help in finding travel discounts. I have traveled to NC, TX, GA, and CO for job interviews with well known corporations.
I checked out Goodwill last spring and I was very surprised as to what you can find there. Like TJ Maxx you need to dig deep to find the quality bargains.
Although Wally World (Super Walmart) may be limited in gourmet items it is great place to get staples. Market Basket is cheaper but the nearest one is in Concord.
Rite Aid is the best place for medicine and toiletries.
I just can't afford to shop 'local' on my unemployment check. I wish the 'locals' good luck as small businesses is what America is all about. Hopefully the economy will turn soon.

[dpg]

I use to make good money and never worry about what items cost or think twice about going out.
I lost my job last year. Thirty three years in the defense electronics industry and my first lay off. Thanks to the democrats. I'm 59 with profound loss of hearing it has been extrremely difficult to get a job. Discrimination laws means nothing unless you can prove it. My resume is so strong, I don't have a problem getting interviews. I can never get past the initial interviews.
Indeed.com is a great place to find jobs. I do find a lot of job postings thst are old and already filled. There are also people 'fishing' by posing as jobs so beware! Be careful who you send your resume to.
Linkedin was valuable. I did get some interviews, but it is a great motivator when you realize you are not alone. Linkedin gives me great insight into where the jobs are.
Another great place to find jobs is the job board at the local college and or community college. This will tell you that there is age discrimination. Most of these jobs are not posted on the internet.
I rarely go out. I do take adavantage of coupons.com and restuarant.com T-Bones/Cactus Jack has a 55 plus program that helps. AARP is also a big help in finding travel discounts. I have traveled to NC, TX, GA, and CO for job interviews with well known corporations.
I checked out Goodwill last spring and I was very surprised as to what you can find there. Like TJ Maxx you need to dig deep to find the quality bargains.
Although Wally World (Super Walmart) may be limited in gourmet items it is great place to get staples. Market Basket is cheaper but the nearest one is in Concord.
Rite Aid is the best place for medicine and toiletries.
I just can't afford to shop 'local' on my unemployment check. I wish the 'locals' good luck as small businesses is what America is all about. Hopefully the economy will turn soon.

Broadhopper - is retirement an option? While you were making "good money" did you worry about putting away what you should of for the "rainy day" we all hear about? How about a 401K, did you have one? Not trying to be nosy just wondering about other options. I to work in the defense industry and your right, I would imagine 59 is not an easy age to find a new job.

[VtSteve]

Outside of construction and Home Depot type jobs, most of the jobs created this decade were in government, health care, and services. We all know how the financial services industry did. Government, both federal and state, continue to grow. Health care, especially in administration, has had unparalleled growth. But as health care grows, it just costs more and more. If everyone is working in health care and government, that could pose a problem?

Defense has grown and will continue to be strong. Replacements are a big field, unfortunately, the number of companies in the field has shrunk. One of the problems facing many in the electronics area is one of obsolete parts. It takes so long for vendors to upgrade and test a new part, that many serious shortages develop. Believe it or not, this impacts many common things like AC130 and other aerospace programs. Cost cutting, middle manager cuts to continue to feed the greedy bulls at the top, not to mention Wall Street quarter to quarter thinkers, all play into this.

To make matters worse, senators have typically overruled the Pentagon on matters of pork and unwanted programs. Every program becomes a political bargaining chip. This is with senators of all political persuasion. This is why many necessary things fell behind, while things the military didn't want, continued to be funded. I know some folks older than you that could be in jeopardy at Norththrop Gruman. Dramatic military pork occurred in all administrations, and the most noticeable was this decade. It was noticable because the Pentagon was at odds with the military over which direction the structure would go in. Let's just say the military was correct, and a certain SOD was dead wrong.

The military has many firms working on electronics contracts and service contracts. Many of these firms hire contract workers from third party companies to manage entire programs. This has the effect of making government workforce appear smaller than it actually is, and probably does save costs. It also is easier for companies to downsize that way :(

North Carolina, Texas, Alabama, Florida all have many firms in these areas of expertise. Tech writers can do very well, and their are frequently great jobs available for electrical engineers, project managers and the like. The discrimination laws were, unfortunately, put into place by the Dems. Whistleblowers aren't as frequent anymore due to lack of government watchdog support, another area that needs to be both streamlined, and rebuilt.

From what I have seen, there should be pretty strong demand for electrical engineers, designers and the like. Like everything else, you'll have to go where they are, as you already know. Good luck my man.

[Airwaves]

A UNH economics professor says the recession is not over and tells the Foster Daily Democrat (http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091004/GJNEWS_01/710049851) that when the economy does recover we will "crawl out of the hole, not jump out of it".

[BroadHopper]

Broadhopper - is retirement an option? While you were making "good money" did you worry about putting away what you should of for the "rainy day" we all hear about? How about a 401K, did you have one? Not trying to be nosy just wondering about other options. I to work in the defense industry and your right, I would imagine 59 is not an easy age to find a new job.

Big penalty if I withdraw my pension before age 60. I don't have enough cash to make it to 60. The pension plan does not keep up with the times. The plan expect me to start social security at 65. because of my age, social security should start at 66 without penalty.

I put 3 girls through college. I have tuitions to pay. My divorce decree prevent me from giving the loans back to the girls.

I lost 60% of my 401K in the market. Also my company stocks went down about that much. I had royalties in the form of Nortel stocks. They went bankrupt and I lost it all.

I'm not ready to retire any way. I am still very much 'alive'. I want to continue what I have been doing until I feel I need to retire.

Thanks for asking. I'm sure there are others that want to retire. But can't afford to because of circumstances beyond their control.

[ILoveWinnipesaukee]

Thanks to the democrats. I'm 59 with profound loss of hearing it has been extrremely difficult to get a job. Discrimination laws means nothing unless you can prove it. My resume is so strong, I don't have a problem getting interviews. I can never get past the initial interviews.
Indeed.com is a great place to find jobs. I do find a lot of job postings thst are old and already filled. There are also people 'fishing' by posing as jobs so beware! Be careful who you send your resume to.
Linkedin was valuable. I did get some interviews, but it is a great motivator when you realize you are not alone. Linkedin gives me great insight into where the jobs are.

Although Wally World (Super Walmart) may be limited in gourmet items it is great place to get staples. Market Basket is cheaper but the nearest one is in Concord.
Rite Aid is the best place for medicine and toiletries.
I just can't afford to shop 'local' on my unemployment check. I wish the 'locals' good luck as small businesses is what America is all about. Hopefully the economy will turn soon.

I left just the information I wanted to comment on, first off, you said that you lost your job last year, the democrats did not get into office until this year. I understand completely when you talk about no jobs, I have been out of work since March and am 51. I have many years of Office Management experience and get the interviews but keep being told I am over qualified for the positions. Most of them are entry level as the economy is not opening new oportunities but lower level expansion.

As for WalMart, I have always fought to stay above the poverty level with my husband on SSI since 1990 and me being the only bread winner. We survive by WalMart. I have checked prices on items compared to the local grocery store and WalMart, and WalMart cannot be beat. I save enough each week to survive.

I too hope the economy turns around, but wanted to put my two cents in to let you know you are not alone with the age issue.

[momof3]

As some of you know my husband was laid off last year for almost 11 months, he found a new job last fall and has been working steady, Thank god! It was a small pay cut but benefits are great and it is stable. We relied on my job for that extra help and in the fall and winter I would sometimes work 7 days a week, but I didn't mind, it helped the family and as most know "you do what you gotta do". Well , last Thursday October 1, I was told they no longer needed part time help, and all the days I covered would be filled by two full time people, makes no sense, they didn't have to give me benefits, days off, vacation, etc...but they went that route. Now the "extra days" I would work for extra income are gone...never mind my regular paycheck. Sent out resumes, heard nothing. We can only hang on for so long...however, I have strong faith, "God gives us what we can handle". I am reminded by my extremely loving parents when I feel depressed of all the blessings I have, and they are right!