Boating Accident/Death off Diamond Island

[Just Sold]

Channel 9 reported this AM that there has been a boating accident off Diamond Island with 1 death and 2 injuries. The accident was reported about 2 AM to the Marine Patrol. The only other info at this point was that the boat had struck something and when MP arrived the boat was found partially submerged in 20' off shore but there are no further details at this point from the Marine Patrol.

[Lin]

It was on the Boston News channels early this am too. No photos or more info than what was reported on WMUR. Just a fatality boating accident that left others injured off Diamond around 2:00 am.

[webmaster]

WMUR just posted an update (http://www.wmur.com/news/16612082/detail.html) at 8:55 am.

[bigpatsfan]

Posted in the Union Leader

Lake Winnipesaukee boat crash kills 1 (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Lake+Winnipesaukee+boat+cras h+kills+1&articleId=0ccac00d-b19a-428a-a00c-e0fd7181a588)

[Old Hubbard Rd]

The operator of this boat I believe is the daughter of Paul Blizzard who owns Lakeport Landing. If so I believe she was a pretty experienced driver. It's sad!!

[Islander]

She is also president of a local boating organization.

http://nhrba.com/board.htm

[hazelnut]

My heart goes out to the families affected by this tragedy.

[TiltonBB]

Boat at Glendale being loaded

[Seaplane Pilot]

WMUR has a news video posted:

http://www.wmur.com/video/16614448/index.html

Very, very sad.

[Ropetow]

Check out the post of Less on the Union Leader website.

"Is this the same Erica Blizzard that is the President of the NHRBA (NH Recreational Boaters Assoc.)? This is the lobbying group of high speed/high horsepower ocean type racing boats owners that vehemently opposed day & night time speed limits on Lake Winnipesaukee! If so, the media needs to follow up on this aspect of the story, as it sheds a whole new light on the speed limit debate!
- F L Less, Meredith, NH"


Talk about crass....Give the dead and injured their time and respect instead of briging up the speed limit debate! Remember....there but for the grade of God go I....

[ITD]

What a tragedy...... my heartfelt condolences to the families involved.


Ropetow,

The ghouls have already started and should be ashamed of themselves. Just ignore them.....

[gravy boat]

Speculation is irrelevant, in my view. But, human nature, it seems, tends to focus on the negative or more sensational possibilities.

Who knows what happened. We received a call today from a friend in Litchfield who knows the sister of the victim. Information was provided to us. The game of telephone is not limited by age. Until the authorities release a final report, I view it as speculation.

Thoughts and prayers to family and friends of the victim. Let's wait and see what is determined by science.

GB

[Alton Bay]

I, too, am disgusted to read just a vile comment from FLL. I have read his cruel, sarcastic and nasty comments about anyone who thinks differently from he does many times over the past months.
My sympathies to the familes who are hurting tonight. I'm sure there will be details to be learned as the days go on, but FLL... be a gentleman and leave the Blizzards alone.

[AMekler]

This was a terrible accident and if wasn't for the quick response of Tom Rock on Diamond Island there could have been more fatalities.
A. Mekler

[Turtle Boy]

I knew it wouldn't take long for some jerk from the speed limit crowd to show their true colors. This is the most outrageous thing I have ever seen - how low will they go? FLL - you should be ashamed of yourself and should post an apology to the poor families hit by this tragedy. Sickening.

Come on, spare us your self righteous indignation. This is the whole point...the so called speed limit crowd has called attention to these risks all along. People debate speeding/DWI/weapons violations and such after any tragedy because there is a need for serious reform now, not next week, month, or year. This is not a mark of disrespect for the dead/injured but rather concern that these tragdies are not repeated. You are the one who is making this an issue of pro/con speed limits. Investigations over the coming weeks will shed light on the circumstances.

[2Blackdogs]

Sadly, this time of year there wouldn't be many residential lights to make Diamond Island more visible. NECN is adding that the boat was headed in a southeasterly direction and that the collision happened at 2:30am.

I was awakened at 12:15am by a weird-sounding noisy boat. Surprisingly, there were several other boats out after midnight Sunday. The weird-sounding boat showed up late this afternoon, and was all white. It may be a Sunsation or Sonic.

What could this Formula 37 have struck to cause such remarkable damage, while leaving the rest of the hull undamaged? Most boats drive onto or over, islands.

[jrc]

I hope this thread can stick to the facts and details of the accident. If anyone wants to discuss political opinions, I hope they take it to the other section.

[jrc]

The damage in the photos is amazing. I remember the photos from the smaller boat that hit Eagle Island. It seemed to go up on the rocks and eventually slide along the ground on the island. This boat seems to have absorbed all the energy by crushing hull. On the news, it looked almost like a rock wall just at the water line. I think were showing the point of impact. The picture is not really close enough but the hull is also surprisingly thin.

[CanisLupusArctos]

It always saddens me to offer weather info in these situations. It has helped in the past, so I do.

The following is taken from automated observations; I was asleep for the night.

Black Cat Island weather at 2 a.m. was most likely a light fog, based on the fact that the temperature and dewpoint were only 2 degrees apart. They were 57 and 55, respectively. Wind was absolute calm: Average zero, gust zero. The temperature was in the process of cooling. The air was laden with moisture (rel. humidity above 90%) and was not experiencing any drying.

Water temperature was 65 at the surface, 66 at 10 feet. Water temperature warmer than the air temperature can produce lake fog, or thicken an existing fog over the lake.

Per info in a weather-section thread on water temp, several warm pools of water (around 70 F) developed in the lake during the most recent heat wave. In the two days of northwest winds following the heat wave, the warm pools relocated to the southeast end of the lake. The water temperature has been greatly variable from place to place. This would have made patchy dense fog (visibility under 1/4 mile) a possibility. Patchy dense fog is often deadlier than widespread dense fog because of its ability to create sudden, dramatic loss of visibility for anyone riding into it. For anyone traveling outside the fog patch on open water at night, a localized fog patch can hide an object in such a way that it looks like open water. The local fog patch would not be obvious in the dark, and therefore the traveler would have no reason to question what is really there.

Conditions at Laconia were similar, also conducive to light fog (temp/dewpoint about 2 degrees apart, and calm wind).

It would be good to have data from the Varney Point and Weirs Beach weather stations also.

I offer all of the above only as a possible answer to anyone who asks how this event could happen to an experienced boater. While the accident investigators will determine the official cause and will probably consider weather, this is something we can think about in the meantime: It is entirely possible that it was a factor. Whether or not patchy dense fog was part of the cause this time, it is a phenomenon on this lake that can catch the most experienced boaters amongst us completely off-guard. Conditions at the time could have supported it.

My condolences to all those involved.

[BroadHopper]

He doesn't have the facts if speed was a factor. It was foggy on The Broads Saturday night, Sunday morning. I have seen many accidents due to fog. And they were not high performance boats.

Condolence to the Beadoin family and wish the others for a speedy recovery. The Blizzard family are well known and respected member of the boating community.

[Winnipesaukee]

In my expert ( :rolleye2: ) opinion, it looks like whatever the boat struck was above the water, but below the level of the gunwale. I'd "speculate" a large, wide rock. Based on the bottom of the hull it doesn't seem that it hit much else--if anything--before it struck whatever damaged the bow, which seems a bit strange. What tends to happen is the boat goes over the obstruction, rather than into it. Notice the hull delaminated from the deck the entire way back.

The bow must have absorbed all of the energy from the moving boat--stopped--in those few feet.

edit: if you watch the video, it will show that the boat hit a rock wall on the shore, and the anchor chain had enough inertia to continue on shore and damage a house a few feet away.

All speculation, of course. Condolences to those involved.

[SOB]

Click the link on the 3rd post of this thread, they have a video which shows the rock the boat struck and also the account of what the person living on the island heard and saw immediately after...

Let's all wait for the facts, I hate when 30 replies from now assumptions become fact. But do check the video out, location on the island, and other comments do shed some light.

Regardless, my sympathies to all the families involved.

[SAMIAM]

Seaplane is right......totally tasteless and uncalled for.Three families lives changed in a tragedy.......guess we should have expected someone to take to low road.

[Lake Fan]

Does anyone know if that boat was particluarly loud? I woke up very late that night and heard a loud boat out on the lake. Couldn't see it from my vantage point but it was loud enough that I got out of bed to take a look.
Might have no connnection at all, just wondering.

[Winnipesaukee]

I think that's a Formula Super Sport, which has through transom exhaust as an option. So it's possible that that's what you heard.

[BroadHopper]

In the Laconia Citizen

http://citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080616/GJNEWS02/847730660/-1/CITIZEN

and in the Concord Monitor

http://concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080616/FRONTPAGE/806160371

The Union Leader became 'tabloid trash'

http://unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Boat+crash+kills+1%3a+Pilot+ is+president+of+NH+boating+group&articleId=20f2536d-0441-40ef-9fb8-7adf8d429017

[codeman671]

Does anyone know if that boat was particluarly loud? I woke up very late that night and heard a loud boat out on the lake. Couldn't see it from my vantage point but it was loud enough that I got out of bed to take a look.
Might have no connnection at all, just wondering.

That boat would not typically be loud, even with the through transoms. I pass by one that looks just like it in Glendale daily and have heard it running. There are plenty of loud boats on the lake so unless you were in the vicinity it is doubtful they were the same.


Sadly, this time of year there wouldn't be many residential lights to make Diamond Island more visible. NECN is adding that the boat was headed in a southeasterly direction and that the collision happened at 2:30am.

With no power (other than if by generators) on Diamond and only a few houses tucked in the trees in that area it would be extremely dark at 2:30am, especially with the weather conditions that night. I have been to the Rock's house in the past and know the area well. They are lucky to have a Doctor be the first on scene.


Come on, spare us your self righteous indignation. This is the whole point...the so called speed limit crowd has called attention to these risks all along. People debate speeding/DWI/weapons violations and such after any tragedy because there is a need for serious reform now, not next week, month, or year. This is not a mark of disrespect for the dead/injured but rather concern that these tragdies are not repeated. You are the one who is making this an issue of pro/con speed limits. Investigations over the coming weeks will shed light on the circumstances.

I am sure the rumors and speculation is certainly flying around, but lets have some respect and restraint. There is plenty of time for speculation and criticism later as I am sure many will do. Someone lost their life and no matter what happened or if anyone was at fault there are pleny of lives affected. For all we know, a member of this very forum could be involved or part of one of the families.

[Turtle Boy]

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, " martini " in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Broadhopper, perhaps you should consider suspending this signature...clearly the family of the victim would disagree with you here. The victim's cousin has already weighed in. This thread contains references to the so called lack of respect to the victim and her family by supporters of speed limits...your beliefs echoed in your signature are part and parcel of the problems faced on the lake caused by a few people cloaking themselves in the "Live Free or Die" banner".It's pathetic.

[KonaChick]

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, " martini " in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Broadhopper, perhaps you should consider suspending this signature...clearly the family of the victim would disagree with you here. The victim's cousin has already weighed in. This thread contains references to the so called lack of respect to the victim and her family by supporters of speed limits...your beliefs echoed in your signature are part and parcel of the problems faced on the lake by a few people cloaking themselves in the "Live Free or Die" banner".It's pathetic.


I didn't even take notice of Broadhopper's signature and I'm sure i'm not alone in this oversight but it sure was good of you to point it out. :rolleye1:
Our thoughts and prayers go out to the victims of this tragedy.

[Belmont Resident]

Why is it, before any facts are released some people feel they have to have little or no respect for those involved in this tragedy and post what they feel are facts? I stopped viewing and posting years ago for this very reason. Unlike many other web sites where some sort of restraint is used in determining what is and what is not allowed to be posted, hurtful comments seem to be the norm on this site.
I found it was easy to get drawn in and become like so many others that’s why I stopped posting.
It is amazing how fearless people are when all they have to face is a computer screen.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Come on, spare us your self righteous indignation. This is the whole point...the so called speed limit crowd has called attention to these risks all along. People debate speeding/DWI/weapons violations and such after any tragedy because there is a need for serious reform now, not next week, month, or year. This is not a mark of disrespect for the dead/injured but rather concern that these tragdies are not repeated. You are the one who is making this an issue of pro/con speed limits. Investigations over the coming weeks will shed light on the circumstances.

Turtle Boy, that was one fine piece of creative writing. My god, you really believe this stuff, don't you?

[chipj29]

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, " martini " in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Broadhopper, perhaps you should consider suspending this signature...clearly the family of the victim would disagree with you here. The victim's cousin has already weighed in. This thread contains references to the so called lack of respect to the victim and her family by supporters of speed limits...your beliefs echoed in your signature are part and parcel of the problems faced on the lake by a few people cloaking themselves in the "Live Free or Die" banner".It's pathetic.

So you are suggesting that anyone with a "life is short" outlook on life should suspend his/her opinions anytime someones life is cut short? Ya, ok.

Condolences go out to the families of all involved in this accident. Speculation needs to stop. Period.

[kjbathe]

Why is it, before any facts are released...

Facts? Why would anyone want to let the facts get in the way of their respective agendas?

[kthy66]

Seriously,,, even if speed was a factor does that mean its ok to start some political debate over speed limits?? NO... this is a tragedy plain and simple.. say prayers for the family and move on.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

My thoughts and condolences to the family and friends of Stephanie Beaudoin for the tragic loss of her life and I wish Erica Blizzard and Nicole Shineopelus a quick recovery. My thoughts also go out to Erica for the loss of her friend and the knowledge that she will have to live with this memory the rest of her life. I'm sure that will weigh heavily on her for a long time to come.

[Island Lover]

Several years ago a friend and neighbor was killed in another needless tragedy on Winnipesaukee. At that time many of us came together in hopes of bringing about change and to prevent these types of accidents. Through years of name calling and hostility we have attempted to improve safety on the lake. Its good that at least one newspaper remembers Jack's name. How many years will it be before yesterdays accident is considered to long ago to be relevant?

We can't sweep another accident under the rug and wait until the next. Some good can come from even the worst tragedies. The best way to honor the dead and console the living is to work to keep it from happening again.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Several years ago a friend and neighbor was killed in another needless tragedy on Winnipesaukee. At that time many of us came together in hopes of bringing about change and to prevent these types of accidents. Through years of name calling and hostility we have attempted to improve safety on the lake. Its good that at least one newspaper remembers Jack's name. How many years will it be before yesterdays accident is considered to long ago to be relevant?

We can't sweep another accident under the rug and wait until the next. Some good can come from even the worst tragedies. The best way to honor the dead and console the living is to work to keep it from happening again.

I cannot understand how anyone can possibly imply that excessive speed was a factor in this accident, without even seeing the official report from the investigation. Yes, the photos show what appears to be severe damage to the bow of the boat. However, if you think about it, hitting a solid granite wall at even 25mph will do severe damage to a boat that's just simply made of fiberglass and wood. What do people think - it's just going to bounce off the rocks? In my opinion (which is worthless), if the boat had been traveling much faster than 20-25mph, there would have been a lot more damage to the boat. Think about those front impact tests the insurance companies do on cars at 5mph? We're talking about a steel car suffering significant damage from a crash at a very low rate of speed. I think in the end that the investigation will determine that the boat's speed was a lot less than people believe it was. Reading some of these cruel comments on The Union Leader website is totally sickening and uncalled for.

[4Fun]

Several years ago a friend and neighbor was killed in another needless tragedy on Winnipesaukee. At that time many of us came together in hopes of bringing about change and to prevent these types of accidents. Through years of name calling and hostility we have attempted to improve safety on the lake. Its good that at least one newspaper remembers Jack's name. How many years will it be before yesterdays accident is considered to long ago to be relevant?

We can't sweep another accident under the rug and wait until the next. Some good can come from even the worst tragedies. The best way to honor the dead and console the living is to work to keep it from happening again.

I agree I.L. We should not sweep these under the rug. We should learn from these tragedies and avoid them in the future. Would a 25MPH speed limit have helped here? Who knows, I personally think no. People make mistakes and make bad choices all the time. Depending on regualtions and laws to prevent this is not going to work.

Even without hearing any real facts other than seeing the picture of the boat you can figure out she was going to fast for the conditions, probably less than the proposed limit, and made some bad decisions. She broke the basic rule of driving any vehicle. How do you write a law that encompases so many variables withour crippling the entire activity? you can't. We somehow need to educate drivers so they can make better decisions.

My thoughts go out to everyone involved.

[Tank151]

Check out the post of Less on the Union Leader website.

"Is this the same Erica Blizzard that is the President of the NHRBA (NH Recreational Boaters Assoc.)? This is the lobbying group of high speed/high horsepower ocean type racing boats owners that vehemently opposed day & night time speed limits on Lake Winnipesaukee! If so, the media needs to follow up on this aspect of the story, as it sheds a whole new light on the speed limit debate!
- F L Less, Meredith, NH"This is Fat Lazy Less who frequently posts on this forum.... This guy has NO CLASS!!! Without knowing ALL the facts, he has already made some assumptions.

I know Paul Blizzard and his family... and they always promote boating safety!

This was an unfortunate tradegy, one that took a young lady's life and severly hurt the driver and another passenger.

Our hearts are with all three families as they suffer through this tradegy.

Tank

[Beggaman Thief]

The more I study the photo, the more it looks like speed wasn’t a factor as evident by the trim tabs and the out-drives being in the down position. And, the way the front is damaged, it appears the boat never went up and over the object….. Wolfeboro Baja, I also echo your sentiments. My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone that is touched by this tragedy.

[parrothead]

What a terrible accident. My thoughts and prayers go out to all the families involved. By reading the new stories this was something fun these women did every year, and what a tragedy that this time it ended as it did.

[Dave R]

The more I study the photo, the more it looks like speed wasn’t a factor as evident by the trim tabs and the out-drives being in the down position. And, the way the front is damaged, it appears the boat never went up and over the object….. Wolfeboro Baja, I also echo your sentiments. My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone that is touched by this tragedy.

If she was exceeding 6 MPH/no wake, speed was a factor. It's obvious the boat was closer to Diamond Island than 150'.

[robmac]

this is a very tragic story and reality for all involved.My prayers go out to all of the families involved and think making judgements of what and how should be done by professionals who have more info than has been released

[SIKSUKR]

This has hit real close to home for me.I know Erica and Steph real well.Stephanie was the sweetest girl.Please stop this crazy taking sides before any infomation has been released.What is wrong with members like FLL and Turtle Boy jumping on the speed limit bandwagon without one shred of info.The only thing we know is that the weather was not good.Shame on you people!

[Bear Islander]

This has hit real close to home for me.I know Erica and Steph real well.Stephanie was the sweetest girl.Please stop this crazy taking sides before any infomation has been released.What is wrong with members like FLL and Turtle Boy jumping on the speed limit bandwagon without one shred of info.The only thing we know is that the weather was not good.Shame on you people!

I agree with you.

And speculating the speed was under the limit is no different from speculating it was over. Plus it will only lead to more speculation or counter theories.

[Weirs guy]

Good to see everyones getting along the same while I'm gone. One person has died and 2 have to live with that and their injures forever and we're all worried about how fast they were going.

My condolences to all those effected.

[sa meredith]

Because she was such an experienced boater, and would know the lake like the back of her hand, I would think people should lean more toward speculation of mechanical failure, or something of this nature. But, really, I agree...NONE OF THAT MATTERS NOW.
Maybe later, but now the only thing people should be concerned with is passing along thoughts of condolence to the families involved.

[2Blackdogs]

The damage in the photos is amazing. I remember the photos from the smaller boat that hit Eagle Island. It seemed to go up on the rocks and eventually slide along the ground on the island. This boat seems to have absorbed all the energy by crushing hull. On the news, it looked almost like a rock wall just at the water line. I think were showing the point of impact. The picture is not really close enough but the hull is also surprisingly thin.
These boats have a good reputation, but that hull IS thin. Other large boats have been known to climb over Lake Superior's rock jettys at high speeds saving their drivers. Some fiberglass cloth hanging low from deckline level on this Formula don't appear to have been thoroughly infused with resin. Possibly an error in construction? Fiberglass cloth is now made in China.

I correct myself on the amount of light available.

Just checking today's weather, I see that there is a full moon. I saw other boats miles away after midnight so the visibility was very good, at least after midnight. This boat's direction was from the most open part of the lake, so distractions or just not paying attention seems likely. Comments of a temporary government suspension of GPS seem hardly likely at all.

[SIKSUKR]

I correct myself on the amount of light available.

Just checking today's weather, I see that there is a full moon. I saw other boats miles away after midnight so the visibility was very good, at least after midnight. This boat's direction was from the most open part of the lake, so distractions or just not paying attention seems likely. Comments of a temporary government suspension of GPS seem hardly likely at all.

Are you sure you have the correct night?It rained pretty hard Saturday night and was foggy.Sunday was overcast and drizzly till I left at noon.

[SIKSUKR]

Latest update from a friend who talked to someone close was that Erica is in critical condition but was expected to survive.I hope that is the case.

[twoplustwo]

siksukr, I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend and my condolences go out to her family, as well. I'll keep Erica and Nicole in my thoughts and prayers as they recover from the physical and emotional toll of this tragedy.

[Jeti]

Sad situation....2.30 am.. would Radar have assisted, it looked high end for a boat.

[Winnipesaukee]

The fiberglass is thick enough. Even from the photo it is impossible to tell if the glass was properly laid or not. Regardless, no glass hull is meant to strike a rock wall head on at a high rate of speed. The whole thing weighs at least 7 tons...

The obstruction was too high for the boat to "soar" over. Lower obstructions, such as those under water or partially above (the Witches is a good example) would allow a boat to act as a ramp and fly over. It's like driving a car over a curb vs. into a wall.

[kthy66]

Sad situation....2.30 am.. would Radar have assisted, it looked high end for a boat.

Yes radar would have helped, unfortunately this boat was not equipped with it according to lakeport site..

http://www.lakeportlanding.com/moredetails.html?20700242441&sitecode=lakeportlanding&icc_ind=BOAT

[kthy66]

The fiberglass is thick enough. Even from the photo it is impossible to tell if the glass was properly laid or not. Regardless, no glass hull is meant to strike a rock wall head on at a high rate of speed. The whole thing weighs at least 7 tons...

Exactly,,, if this boat were at WOT when it hit it would have disintegrated. I dont believe there is any design flaw here.. When you take into consideration the forces at work here it is not surprising the amount of damage to the hull.. No fiberglass vessel could withstand the impact of hitting a rock wall at any speed over headway.

I guess all we can hope is that the families can heal and maybe some folks will learn something from this tragedy.

[Lakepilot]

My heart goes out to all affected by this accident. I pray for a speedy recovery for those injured.

[codeman671]

These boats have a good reputation, but that hull IS thin. Other large boats have been known to climb over Lake Superior's rock jettys at high speeds saving their drivers. Some fiberglass cloth hanging low from deckline level on this Formula don't appear to have been thoroughly infused with resin. Possibly an error in construction? Fiberglass cloth is now made in China.

I correct myself on the amount of light available.

Just checking today's weather, I see that there is a full moon. I saw other boats miles away after midnight so the visibility was very good, at least after midnight. This boat's direction was from the most open part of the lake, so distractions or just not paying attention seems likely. Comments of a temporary government suspension of GPS seem hardly likely at all.

HUH? :eek:

Formula does not make a thin-hulled boat at all, in fact they historically have a rather heavy build and have a great reputation. Unless you are a nationally accredited marine surveyor and are overqualified to the point of being able to make such judgements from a website picture about the resin, hull composition, etc you are spewing garbage.

The night was cold, dark and raining at that time. At 1am when we got out of the hot tub and went to bed it was not raining yet but it was extremely dark.

For the record, that boat is capable of 53mph+/-, not exactly a GFBL. It has a dry weight of 15,100lbs and the intertia that it would have at even 25mph could be extremely destructive.

[jrc]

Please let me be clear, I was not saying that the hull was undersized or poorly constructed or defective. It just saying that it looked thinner in the picture than I would have guessed. Formula makes some very expensive boats and I'm sure they have well engineered layups. The stress on that hull at impact to immovable granite has to be incredible.

[webmaster]

Boston.com article (http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2008/06/16/driver_in_boat_crash_heads_boating_group/) gives some more information.

[Water Camper]

Is this the same Erica Blizzard that is the President of the NHRBA (NH Recreational Boaters Assoc.)? This is the lobbying group of high speed/high horsepower ocean type racing boats owners that vehemently opposed day & night time speed limits on Lake Winnipesaukee! If so, the media needs to follow up on this aspect of the story, as it sheds a whole new light on the speed limit debate!
- F L Less, Meredith, NH"


Anyone who knows Erica Blizzard knows that she is a seasoned boater and highly experienced. And she's smart too. How does her being a part of a lobbying group have anything to do with this unfortunate accident? You, obviously have formed your own opinion. We wish Erica, Paul and their family our heart felt love and support. Every one on this website should do the same.

Sue

[PennyPenny]

Speed was an issue. His aunt is the deceased. The boat hit some rocks and went airborne?? and landed on or near shore. I only know that the families are grieving. The nephew is my future son in law and works at the Whining Butcher in Gilford.( not that that matters) I am not a boater but I have seen what speed can do whether it be a rock or tree or whatever. People kill people. It just brings me to tears. RIP

[Waterbaby]

My condolences and prayers to Stephanie's family, and thoughts and prayers to the families of Erica and Nicole. What a terrible tragedy, and I sincerely hope Erica pulls through so this tragedy does not expand.

As far as opinions stated on this thread thus far, assumptions made, and trying to turn it into a platform for or against speed limits, I myself would not even begin to presume to know causes of the accident, conditions or speed or any other related factors. I am not Stephanie or Erica or Nicole, I wasn't onboard the boat, I wasn't an eyewitness, and I find some of the comments made thus far absolutely appalling. For heavens' sake, the boat had barely - if at all - made it to Belmont before the speculating began.

Out of respect for the families and friends involved, I implore you, people: keep it to yourself or at least off of a public board, let the experts do their job and wait for their report, and wish the families condolences and prayers.

Just imagine how Mr. Beaudoin feels -- his Father's Day began with finding out his youngest child is dead. And how about Mr. Blizzard? His daughter is in critical condition from a boating accident..... and Mr. Shinepolus' daughter is injured as well................ have a little empathy, please.

I wish you all well, and hope that nothing ever happens to put your families or friends under the spotlight of speculation. It's not a pleasant place to be.

[Water Camper]

Well said! I can only hope that all who read your tread will truly understand what a difficult time this is for all the families involved and will leave them alone. WE weren't in the boat, WE don't know what happened.
Sue

[abaynewbie]

This is a very tragic ACCIDENT. This is not the time to be judmental or speculative, it is the time to offer support, condolences and prayers to all those affected. Please show some sense of decency. The anguish these families are dealing with does not need to be intensified by the stupidness I've read here.

My thoughts and prayers to all those affected.

[Winni_Bay]

Erica Blizzard is a vey high respected business woman. I wish her well and my heart goes out to the victims/families involved in this horrible tragedy. Lets all let it be and respect the victims/families involved in this horrible nightmare.

[lacey]

Thoughts and prayers go out to all those involved and their families.

[fatlazyless]

Check out the post of Less on the Union Leader website.

"Is this the same Erica Blizzard that is the President of the NHRBA (NH Recreational Boaters Assoc.)? This is the lobbying group of high speed/high horsepower ocean type racing boats owners that vehemently opposed day & night time speed limits on Lake Winnipesaukee! If so, the media needs to follow up on this aspect of the story, as it sheds a whole new light on the speed limit debate!
- F L Less, Meredith, NH"


Talk about crass....Give the dead and injured their time and respect instead of briging up the speed limit debate! Remember....there but for the grade of God go I....
........

Hello Everyone - just saw this thread, and no it was not me who wrote and posted it in the Union Leader. Someone, acting in bad faith, chose to write up a very rude and nasty letter and post it in the UL, under the name of F L Less.

It's not me....didn't write it and most certainly do not appreciate this deceit.

To whoever crafted this act of deception and miss-statement, you must be very proud of yourself for spreading bad feelings at the hurtfull expense of others.

No doubt, this can be chaulked up as collateral damage from the long running topic in the 'other' boating thread.
..........


Sympathies extended, at what must be a difficult time, to all close to the recent boat accident.

fll

[SAMIAM]

One time,several years ago,I was returning from a party on Bear Island late at night.Not a lot of drinking going on but people on board were having a good time after dinner and visiting friends. I grew up on the lake,but missed a marker and had to frantically reverse because I almost ran right into the Kona boathouse in the fog.
Erica is a skilled and experienced boater and knows the lake well.ANYONE can make a mistake or miss a marker.We need to show some support and understanding .She is a respected businesswoman who is loved by everyone who knows her and using this tragedy to express a point of view about speed limits or performance boats is twisted.I wish this site had a "ignore" feature like the chat rooms.

[robmac]

I agree,untill the facts are out why is it so many want to further there own objectives? why not let the families grieve and find out what MP and the experts find out????????? Or is it in some groups interest to sully someones name and further an objective

[EricP]

I was out on the lake at about 11PM Saturday night and it was lightly raining and very heavy cloud cover. Basically it was dark, very dark. I can say that it was the kind of night that would challenge even the most experenced boaters' knowledge of the lake.

I too think some folks here should be ashamed of their comments, especially given we have no facts. I sincerely hope we get to hear from Erica, as 1 life lost is 1 too many.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all those affected by this tragic accident.

[Chris Craft]

As some one that was involved in an accident similiar to this (snow mobile)were I lost one of my very closest friends, my heart goes out to the family of all those involved. This is going to hurt for some time but you will find comfort from your friends, religion, and family and you WILL get through it. Eventually you will move on with your life and things will start to normallize. You will never forget your friend and your memories will again become fond and put a smile back on your face. Forget what all the negative people have to say, best to probably just stay away from all the threads. People all have an agenda and can be down right cruel. God Bless

[SteveA]

As some one that was involved in an accident similiar to this (snow mobile)were I lost one of my very closest friends, my heart goes out to the family of all those involved. This is going to hurt for some time but you will find comfort from your friends, religion, and family and you WILL get through it. Eventually you will move on with your life and things will start to normallize. You will never forget your friend and your memories will again become fond and put a smile back on your face. Forget what all the negative people have to say, best to probably just stay away from all the threads. People all have an agenda and can be down right cruel. God Bless

Nice job CC Everyone on all sides of the "how fast can I drive my boat" issue need to leave this story alone. Show some class and pray for these three families.

[Bear Islander]

I'm afraid the press is not going to leave this story alone. I have just seen the report in the national Fox news.

Our "News" isn't news anymore, its sensationalism. Accuracy and relevance are not important.

[webmaster]

<iframe scrolling="no" width="490" height="418" src="http://www.necn.com/video/1/11192"></iframe>

[VitaBene]

If she was exceeding 6 MPH/no wake, speed was a factor. It's obvious the boat was closer to Diamond Island than 150'.

Dave nailed it here, 6 MPH was the limit.

It is a shame that this tragedy occurred- my prayers are with all of the familes involved.

[Old Hubbard Rd]

http://www.legacy.com/Citizen/DeathNotices.asp?Page=Lifestory&PersonId=111728081

[SIKSUKR]

........

Hello Everyone - just saw this thread, and no it was not me who wrote and posted it in the Union Leader. Someone, acting in bad faith, chose to write up a very rude and nasty letter and post it in the UL, under the name of F L Less.

It's not me....didn't write it and most certainly do not appreciate this deceit.

To whoever crafted this act of deception and miss-statement, you must be very proud of yourself for spreading bad feelings at the hurtfull expense of others.

No doubt, this can be chaulked up as collateral damage from the long running topic in the 'other' boating thread.
..........


Sympathies extended, at what must be a difficult time, to all close to the recent boat accident.

fll

This may or may not be the case but it is exactly the type of post we have seen from FLL on a non-stop basis.Sorry,not buying this post at all.If the shoe fits.

[VitaBene]

This may or may not be the case but it is exactly the type of post we have seen from FLL on a non-stop basis.Sorry,not buying this post at all.If the shoe fits.

Based on his post and how the name was written in the paper- I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

[fatlazyless]

I obviously have no idea who wrote the letter from F L Less. One can imagine what their intent was.

What I do know, is that I absolutely - positively - absolutely did not write it!

As I said in my post from last night, someone acting in very bad faith crafted this nasty letter to the Union Leader and signed it F L Less.

It was not me!

With such a grave and serious accident that involves big injuries and death, it would be extremely rude and nasty. People have feelings! It is just totally out of good taste to be so disrespectfull.

On the human scale of importance, a grave boating accident emotionally outweighs a speed limit law by a million times......no comparision....

Again, please accept my condolences to all close to this boating accident!

I'm a boater too. Wave to me, and I'll wave back to you.

You know, I do not expect any apologies from anyone who wrote any of the nasty ghoulish replies about me. There was a terrible accident. People get very upset, and they see that nasty letter, and they assume it is real so they react in turn.

Let's just forget about that and move on.

Here's hoping the accident survivors will make a speedy & full recovery.

[Orion]

....but wouldn't a $350,000 boat be equipped with at least a $350 GPS?

[NHDOLFAN]

I have been reading all the posts and the back and forth banter going on. Unfortunately, society allows us to form opinions without the need for facts. I was on the lake Saturday night around midnight. I must say that I would not have attempted to go anywhere that evening without GPS. Even with GPS, I was very cautious and traveling at a slow speed. It saddens me to think that someone with her experience would not have this technology at her disposal. Regardless of the side that you have choose to take, there is an innocent person no longer with us. Everyone is focused on the boat and what it looks like. What about the idea of the anchor being propelled into the side of the cottage on impact?

Best wishes to those involved as the pain will always be there.

[Dave R]

....but wouldn't a $350,000 boat be equipped with at least a $350 GPS?

Looks like it has a nice one, looks like a Raymarine C80 display and it is highly unlikely it came without a GPS antenna:

http://thumbs-ash.vehicle-web-services.com/pix/icc/items/207/002/424/41/20700242441_5276636.jpg

It may not have had the Winnipesaukee chart in it though. Can't say.

[kthy66]

Im sure it had the proper electronics but like anything else accidents happen. It doesnt matter how well you know the lake; things are different at night. “familiarity breeds contempt”
GPS is not foolproof.. :(

I wish the victims and their families a speedy healing

[SIKSUKR]

I obviously have no idea who wrote the letter from F L Less. One can imagine what their intent was.

What I do know, is that I absolutely - positively - absolutely did not write it!

As I said in my post from last night, someone acting in very bad faith crafted this nasty letter to the Union Leader and signed it F L Less.

It was not me!

With such a grave and serious accident that involves big injuries and death, it would be extremely rude and nasty. People have feelings! It is just totally out of good taste to be so disrespectfull.

On the human scale of importance, a grave boating accident emotionally outweighs a speed limit law by a million times......no comparision....

Again, please accept my condolences to all close to this boating accident!

I'm a boater too. Wave to me, and I'll wave back to you.

You know, I do not expect any apologies from anyone who wrote any of the nasty ghoulish replies about me. There was a terrible accident. People get very upset, and they see that nasty letter, and they assume it is real so they react in turn.

Let's just forget about that and move on.

Here's hoping the accident survivors will make a speedy & full recovery.

Sorry FLL,I'm a little touchy right now.You have certainly made posts in the past along the same lines that lacked good taste.I accept your last post and hope you are sincere.

[SIKSUKR]

I thought I would put a link to Stephanie's Obit from the Laconia Citizen Online.She really was a wonderful girl with the most infectious smile.God Bless.
http://www.legacy.com/Citizen/DeathNotices.asp?Page=Lifestory&PersonId=111728081

[NHDOLFAN]

I understand that a GPS is not fool proof. However, an ounce of caution can go a long way. Each year, I am baffled by the stupidity of people on the lake (tubing with young kids in the middle of the broads on a busy summer weekend is just 1 example). I'm not sure if I agree with the statement " accidents happen" as many of them can be prevented with patience.

[kthy66]

It is what it is... ACCIDENTS do Happen regardless of whether there is someone acting foolishly or following all the rules..
You apparently believe that all accidents are due to people doing stupid things.. must be nice in your world.

[NHDOLFAN]

Give me an example where an accident happens when someone is using common sense with patience. My world is a great place because I choose for it to be. Try reading the book Don't Sweat the Small Stuff.

[kthy66]

ok... your driving down the lake... a submerged floating object takes out your prop... who is being negligent causing this accident?

Your driving down the street... A rock gets kicked up from a car in front of you.. your windshield cracks.... who is being negligent causing this accident?

Try reading the book.. boating for dummies... I think it will do you some good

[kthy66]

BTW I will not respond to anymore of your inane posts... its disrespectful to the people involved in the ACCIDENT.. Go somewhere else and spew your hate and ridicule.

[SIKSUKR]

Give me an example where an accident happens when someone is using common sense with patience. My world is a great place because I choose for it to be. Try reading the book Don't Sweat the Small Stuff.

Gee,there's a tough one.I walking on a path and a big branch of a tree suddenly breaks off and falls on me.Maybe I was lacking comman sense by walking near those trees and was not patient enough to wait for that tree to fall before walking by it.Hopefully,if you use all your comman sense,a tree does not drop on you.

[ITD]

I obviously have no idea who wrote the letter from F L Less. One can imagine what their intent was.

What I do know, is that I absolutely - positively - absolutely did not write it!

As I said in my post from last night, someone acting in very bad faith crafted this nasty letter to the Union Leader and signed it F L Less.

It was not me!

With such a grave and serious accident that involves big injuries and death, it would be extremely rude and nasty. People have feelings! It is just totally out of good taste to be so disrespectfull.

On the human scale of importance, a grave boating accident emotionally outweighs a speed limit law by a million times......no comparision....

Again, please accept my condolences to all close to this boating accident!

I'm a boater too. Wave to me, and I'll wave back to you.

You know, I do not expect any apologies from anyone who wrote any of the nasty ghoulish replies about me. There was a terrible accident. People get very upset, and they see that nasty letter, and they assume it is real so they react in turn.

Let's just forget about that and move on.

Here's hoping the accident survivors will make a speedy & full recovery.

I believe Less' statement here and want to apologize for calling him ghoulish. Less, that statement is still in that article, I would be outraged if someone did this to me. I suggest that you call the Union leader and ask them to remove it if you haven't already. I'm sure that the UL ip logs the responses it receives, maybe it would be possible to associate that IP with an IP used in this forum, who knows.

I still stand behind my ghoul statement for the person who wrote that response, no matter which side of the SL debate they are on and the others, who were waiting for this tragedy to say "see, I told you so".

I would also like to point out that hitting an immoveable object like a wall at 25 mph with a boat will cause massive damage and probably death. I would be very surprised if this boat was going over 25 mph. If you don't believe me, drive your car into a concrete abutment at 25 and see what happens.

[parrothead]

Also don't wear a seat belt while driving into the abutment.

[kthy66]

ITD... you are so right... I was thinking last night about what happens to a car in a low speed crash... I saw a picture of a corvette this morning that hit a wall at 30 MPH.. As you know corvettes are also all fiberglass... The car was crushed almost beyond recognition.
Got me thinking that this boat was not going that fast at all... probably less than 20 miles per hour... Had it been going at any significant speed there wouldnt have been anything left and there would have been much more significant damage to the underneath of the hull and not just the bow.

[NHDOLFAN]

kthy66

those are examples of life and things that happen, not accidents. the only disrespect is you not understanding that everyone is entitled to an opinion. everything happens for a reason, so there is no accident! the reason sometimes is not as OBVIOUS as others.

[Seaplane Pilot]

kthy66

those are examples of life and things that happen, not accidents. the only disrespect is you not understanding that everyone is entitled to an opinion. everything happens for a reason, so there is no accident! the reason sometimes is not as OBVIOUS as others.

What is the definition of the event in this article, if it wasn't an accident? God help the poor girl who was the victim of this falling rock - she did not cause this event. Of course there are accidents!

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/05/11/tourists_kin_asks_if_death_had_to_happen/

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Speed was an issue. His aunt is the deceased. The boat hit some rocks and went airborne?? and landed on or near shore. I only know that the families are grieving. The nephew is my future son in law and works at the Whining Butcher in Gilford.( not that that matters) I am not a boater but I have seen what speed can do whether it be a rock or tree or whatever. People kill people. It just brings me to tears. RIP

SIKSUKR, my condolences on the loss of your friend and my apologies for bringing this up; I thought I had already said all that I needed to say or that I was going to say in this thread but the quote above really angered me.

How can someone get "first hand" information from a deceased victim? I don't understand that. By now, we've all looked at the picture of the damaged boat in post #8; if that boat was "airborne??", why was the entire hull bottom not destroyed instead of just the first 8-12 feet of it as we see in the picture? Looking at that pic, I don't believe that for an instant! Imagine the force it would take to cause a 15,000 lb boat to become airborne!! People that admit to not being boaters should not be speculating; allow the professionals to investigate the accident and file their reports, based on their experience, expertise and knowledge.

DaveR, regarding your comment about speed being an issue since "obvious(ly) the boat was closer to Diamond Island than 150'," allow me to suggest to you that given the darkness, rain, fog and maybe an inaccurate GPS reading, Ms. Blizzard may have thought she was much further away from land than she actually was. We know GPS is not 100% accurate (it can vary as much as 50 ft) and there was also a report of another boater getting inaccurate readings in the same vicinity as this accident. There have been many comments about her abilities at the helm of a boat and I believe those comments; does anyone actually think a boater with that much experience would intentionally make a mistake like this?? I don't believe that. My thoughts are, she probably thought she knew exactly where she was, the only problem was, she was drastically mistaken. Yes, I know, I'm speculating myself. Enough said.

FatLazyLess, as much as I disagree with most of your comments on the speed limits threads, I believe you were being honest and sincere when you said you did not make the comment on the Union Leader article. I just felt it was important for you to know that I believed you and, setting the speed limit issue aside, we can all agree this was a very tragic accident.

Finally, my thoughts and condolences go out to all the families of the victims and to the friends of the victims that have lost someone so near and dear to them.

[kthy66]

kthy66

those are examples of life and things that happen, not accidents. the only disrespect is you not understanding that everyone is entitled to an opinion. everything happens for a reason, so there is no accident! the reason sometimes is not as OBVIOUS as others.


like i said,,, it must be nice in your world

[NHDOLFAN]

half empty or half full, it's a simple choice with profound outcomes. the decision is yours and only yours!

[kthy66]

I came across Dr. Rock's story at the accident scene. Thank goodness he was there.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080617/FRONTPAGE/806170304

[RI Swamp Yankee]

........ Hello Everyone - just saw this thread, and no it was not me who wrote and posted it in the Union Leader. .... fllFLL, looks like a lot of people condemning others for jumping to conclusions .... were jumping to conclusions.

[kjbathe]

I came across Dr. Rock's story at the accident scene. Thank goodness he was there.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080617/FRONTPAGE/806170304

A different story when it includes the human element... So sad...

[Seeker]

Thank God Dr. Rock was there. He possibly saved 2 lives.

[sa meredith]

Wow. If you read the story of Dr. Rock, no matter who you are, there is just no way your thoughts can turn to who to blame, or speed limits, or anything other than how tragic and sad that scene must have been. My heart bleeds for these girls and their families...

[Dave R]

DaveR, regarding your comment about speed being an issue since "obvious(ly) the boat was closer to Diamond Island than 150'," allow me to suggest to you that given the darkness, rain, fog and maybe an inaccurate GPS reading, Ms. Blizzard may have thought she was much further away from land than she actually was. We know GPS is not 100% accurate (it can vary as much as 50 ft) and there was also a report of another boater getting inaccurate readings in the same vicinity as this accident. There have been many comments about her abilities at the helm of a boat and I believe those comments; does anyone actually think a boater with that much experience would intentionally make a mistake like this?? I don't believe that. My thoughts are, she probably thought she knew exactly where she was, the only problem was, she was drastically mistaken. Yes, I know, I'm speculating myself. Enough said.



The boat could not hit Diamond Island unless it was closer than 150 feet so we know it was within 150 feet. If it was exceeding 6 MPH, it was going faster than the law allows. That's it. I wrote that in response to claims that speed was not a factor. I never implied that the operator was aware of her position, nor did I imply anything else.

[4Fun]

The boat could not hit Diamond Island unless it was closer than 150 feet so we know it was within 150 feet. If it was exceeding 6 MPH, it was going faster than the law allows. That's it. I wrote that in response to claims that speed was not a factor. I never implied that the operator was aware of her position, nor did I imply anything else.

Your point makes sense to me Dave. To the posters comparing a falling tree or a random rock kicked up on the highway those things are largely out of your control. This accident, while I am sure there were many contributing factors, was within the control of the boat operator.

Simply put she thought she was heading in a different direction or in a different spot. This is operator error plain and simple. I don't think this is jumping to a conclusion. What the contributing factors were that caused the confusion can be debated, but whether or not she is at fault how can you debate that???

I am very sorry to hear about the loss of a life and certainly don't think Erica should be condemed for life or smeared through the media. Discussing it to make a safer lake should be viewed as a positive not a negitive.

[NHDOLFAN]

4Fun

Very well said. My comments are not to cast judgement or identify fault. I simple stated that this tragic situation may have been prevented. Unfortunately for Erica, she will always live with this pain, regardless of the circumstances.

My hat goes off to Dr. Rock and his wife for their help in this situation, which may have saved some lives.

[sa meredith]

As I very recently stated, the only thing that matters is the fact the lives of the two survivors have changed forever, and another girl has lost her's. You have to feel for them. However, it seems people just want to talk about speed, and the definition of the word "accident".
My take is this....at some point, responsibility is going to be accessed by the proper authorities. A woman has died, after all. And the finding will not be "oh, just an accident". I'm sorry. That just won't be the case. As a precident, I would look to the incident (not accident) involving the son (as opposed to the daughter) of the owner of a Marina (Irwin or Channell, I forget) who ran over two people in Meredith Bay at night, killing one. He was held responsible for it. Yes, he was drunk. But if he was not drunk, I believe he still would have been held responsible for the "incident".
This is a terrible, terrible thing that has happened. But unless there is severe mechanical failure, someone will be held accountable. Simple truth.

[Bear Islander]

Here is the information on donations in the event someone is interested. I can tell you first hand that donations like this will mean a lot to the family.


For those who wish, the family suggests expressions of sympathy in Stephanie's name may be made to the American Cancer Society-Making Strides Against Breast Cancer, c/o Eileen Willet, 2 Commerce Drive, Suite 110, Bedford NH 03110, on memo line of check please insert MSABC-Laconia-Laconia Clinic Team-In Memory of Stephanie D. Beaudoin, or visit www.cancer.org/stridesonline or to the New Hampshire Humane Society, PO Box 572, Laconia NH 03247, or visit www.nhhumane.org.

[SIKSUKR]

Thank you BI for posting that info.

[Bear Islander]

By a strange coincidence Phillip, the Bear on Bear Island came up in another thread. When our son died many years ago we asked that donations go to the Bear Island Conservation Association. The money donated was used by the association to have the Bear carved, put in place, and a plaque at the base. Over the years it has been wonderful to see children get a kick out of that bear.

I mention this by way of passing along the idea that a living, working memorial is the best kind. It can be a park bench, playground equipment or a wooden Bear.

[brk-lnt]

I came across Dr. Rock's story at the accident scene. Thank goodness he was there.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080617/FRONTPAGE/806170304

Wow, they just can't help but weave the speed limits bill into the article. "News" publications with such an obvious agenda are really irksome. Add the Concord Monitor to the list of tabloid trash reporting.

[BroadHopper]

Stephanie Beaudoin is my second cousin. Please respect the wish of the family and cut the chase with the speed limit crap!

[Lexxi]

Please leave these families alone. I am sure there are many thoughts and prayers being said at this time for all involved.
May God be with all the families and friends at this time of sorrow.

Accidents are just that accidents !!!

[Cal]

Dave nailed it here, 6 MPH was the limit.

It is a shame that this tragedy occurred- my prayers are with all of the familes involved.

You and Dave R should both use your heads with this 150' 6mph thing.
What would you bet SHE DIDN'T REALIZE THE ISLAND WAS THERE?
That doesn't take rocket science to figure out.


My condolences to all involved.

[wildwoodfam]

Wow, they just can't help but weave the speed limits bill into the article. "News" publications with such an obvious agenda are really irksome. Add the Concord Monitor to the list of tabloid trash reporting.

I thought the article was well written - and was / is a contradiction to otherwise reguallry reported news articles which do focus more on agenda issues. This article really gives you a true sense of Dr. Rock's heroic actions at 2:30am in the morning. How many of us can say we'd have jumped into action - how many would have simply rolled over and shrugged it off to lightning or "someone elses problem." The mention of the speed limit bill was appropriately placed with context, and was not out of place in this article.

Just my opinion....

[Silver Duck]

Getting back to what matters, does anybody have any recent info on Ms. Blizzard's condition?

Some of the news reports had her listed as "critical"; it would be nice of friends of the family kept the rest of us updated on how she's doing.

Silver Duck

[sa meredith]

You and Dave R should both use your heads with this 150' 6mph thing.
What would you bet SHE DIDN'T REALIZE THE ISLAND WAS THERE?
That doesn't take rocket science to figure out.


My condolences to all involved.

Cal...of course she didn't realize it was there!!!! To believe she did would mean she intentionally killed someone. And the time for all this is certainly not now. But, as has been discusssed on this forum countless times after boating mishaps...the captain is responsible for EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING!
First and foremost the safety of all passengers. It was her responsibility/job/obligation to know exactly where she was. The only way this comes out OK is if they find severe mechanical failure. see my earlier post

[Dave R]

You and Dave R should both use your heads with this 150' 6mph thing.
What would you bet SHE DIDN'T REALIZE THE ISLAND WAS THERE?
That doesn't take rocket science to figure out.


My condolences to all involved.

Obviously. Please use your own head and read between the lines.

[SAMIAM]

ITD and RI SWAMP YANKEE.....are you really buying FLL's denial ?? That post is right in line with his previous postings. So, some stranger just happened to dream up the name FL Less and make a post that is very typical of his views.
Sorry....I don't buy it FLL......GUILTY AS CHARGED

[pats fan]

As I very recently stated, the only thing that matters is the fact the lives of the two survivors have changed forever, and another girl has lost her's. You have to feel for them. However, it seems people just want to talk about speed, and the definition of the word "accident".
My take is this....at some point, responsibility is going to be accessed by the proper authorities. A woman has died, after all. And the finding will not be "oh, just an accident". I'm sorry. That just won't be the case. As a precident, I would look to the incident (not accident) involving the son (as opposed to the daughter) of the owner of a Marina (Irwin or Channell, I forget) who ran over two people in Meredith Bay at night, killing one. He was held responsible for it. Yes, he was drunk. But if he was not drunk, I believe he still would have been held responsible for the "incident".
This is a terrible, terrible thing that has happened. But unless there is severe mechanical failure, someone will be held accountable. Simple truth.

I was not there when the Littlefield accident occured a few years ago, however, Mr. Littlefield was found NOT guilty of being drunk. It can be your opinion that he was, but you should refrain from stating that he was drunk. Right now is probably not the time for the peanut gallery to be deciding that Erica needs to be held responsible in any legal manner. At this point she is still in critical condition and putting up the fight of her life. Could she have been impared? Speeding? Operating in an unsafe manner? Perhaps. But right now I think it is very disheartening to hear people beating her up when she is in the physical condition she is in. She will have terrible mental and physical scars to deal with from this and right now she needs the community to pray for her speedy recovery and pray for Steph and her family. There are evil people who do horrible things. Erica is a good person who had a horrible thing happen to her, weather she inadvertantly contributed to it or not.

[Waterbaby]

Getting back to what matters, does anybody have any recent info on Ms. Blizzard's condition?

Some of the news reports had her listed as "critical"; it would be nice of friends of the family kept the rest of us updated on how she's doing.

Silver Duck

SD, I can't say this for a fact, I was wondering myself how she is doing, but I did see a link to the Concord Monitor article a bit earlier in the thread. Erica's dad, Paul, is quoted as saying

"From there, Blizzard was taken to Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center in Lebanon, where her father, Paul Blizzard, said she was being kept unconscious by doctors yesterday. He said that his daughter was in stable condition, and that there was no indication of brain damage."

"Tell your readers to pray for her," he said.

[brk-lnt]

ITD and RI SWAMP YANKEE.....are you really buying FLL's denial ?? That post is right in line with his previous postings. So, some stranger just happened to dream up the name FL Less and make a post that is very typical of his views.
Sorry....I don't buy it FLL......GUILTY AS CHARGED

Honestly, who cares? I've yet to see "Less" string together a coherent thought, and on the random occasions something intelligible escapes his keyboard it is juvenile and non-value-add.

It is either his own post, or a spot-on impression of him. Either way my personal opinion of him is cast and he is not worth the effort to debate with, or consider.

I urge you to simply ignore him, and/or his "imposters".

[Skip]

... Mr. Littlefield was found NOT guilty of being drunk. It can be your opinion that he was, but you should refrain from stating that he was drunk...


Out of sympathy and respect for the individuals and families affected by this collision I will refrain from comment about the original topic under discussion, except for offering my sincerest condolences.

As to your assertion quoted above, it is obvious that you have not read the original court transcript or the opinion of the NH Supreme Court which heard the Littlefield appeal.

I have covered this topic in the past, provided links to the transcripts and posted pertinent passages numerous times. The regular reader is clearly familiar with the evidence I have covered previously.

The jury found ample evidence of Littlefield's impairment by alcohol the night of his crime, and found that intoxication was one of the leading factors that led to his inability to maintain a proper lookout, with death resulting.

On appeal, the Justices of the NH Supreme Court acknowledged that the jury could consider, did consider and rightfully concluded from ample & credible testimony of Littlefield's impairment. That is a matter of fact, not opinion, clearly annotated in both Court decisions.

Littlefield was not found guilty of the higher of the two homicide charges simply because the coward fled the scene and verifiable evidence of the level of his intoxication could not be introduced, for obvious reasons.

Additionally, ample evidence of his intoxication played a significant factor in the awards given during the subsequent civil proceedings.

Mr. Littlefield was intoxicated, a coward and remains a convicted felon for the rest of his life.

Cowardice is the only subject up for debate, but clearly is indicative of my opinion then and now.

Finally, given what little is actually known about the tragedy that just occurred, it is highly inappropriate and extremely irresponsible to be drawing any conclusions or references between the two events.

Skip

[pats fan]

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071219/GJNEWS02/709126805


Skip,
See paragraph 3 of the above Citizen article. I don't disagree with your comments above about Mr. Littlefield, but it certainly does seem to me that he was aquitted of being drunk. Do I think he probably was? Sure. But I think he was not found guilty of that charge.

[Skip]

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071219/GJNEWS02/709126805


Skip,
See paragraph 3 of the above Citizen article. I don't disagree with your comments above about Mr. Littlefield, but it certainly does seem to me that he was aquitted of being drunk. Do I think he probably was? Sure. But I think he was not found guilty of that charge.

PF, please don't take my previoius post as a personal criticism.

The trial and appeal were very technical, and the transcripts lengthy. One paragraph in the local paper by an underpaid reporter cannot substitute for the actual gist of the charges.

It would take me several pages of legal jargon to explain the technical differences of the two homicide charges Littlefield was charged with, and how (legally) a not guilty finding of the higher charge does not mean he was not intoxicated.

In the end it is neither your's nor my opinion that matters, it was what the jury concluded and what the NH Supreme Court opined in the matter. And a reading of the transcripts clearly shows that they both came to the conclusion that Littlefield was intoxicated. The inability to show to what technical degree is what allowed him to escape a lengthier stay in the State prison system.

Like someone once said...."you could print volumes of what they don't tell you in the papers!"... :(

[robmac]

you people are rediculous! First off who and why are you being a jury in an already settled situation? why are you assuming that the two accidents are the same? Let the families and the professionals(not you rank ametuers) determine what happened and who's at fault.The web master should put a stop to this assault on situations and unknown facts and let families grieve and wait to see what the final outcome is.

[Belmont Resident]

First let me say that you people who keep bring up the 150' headway speed thing are really ignorant. Do you honestly think that if someone knew they were heading for an island they would not have taken action to avoid hitting it?
Even though someone sells a particular model of boat doesn’t automatically mean they know everything about every boat in that model line.
Now lets say the operator was on a brand new boat, one that they had just purchased and were out on for the first time, one they were not totally familiar with and therefore were not using GPS but rather relying on there life long knowledge of the lake to guide them.
Now for all you boaters, where do you keep your right hand when operating your boat?
Not sure but I believe 90% would say that it was resting on the controls.
What direction propels the boat forward?
If I was operating a boat and it came to a stop unexpectedly there might be a good chance I would push the throttles full forward thus adding to the boats forward momentum.
Granted this is only hypothetical but a scenario that very well could have played out this past weekend.
So please have a little respect for those who were involved and let the facts come out before you show so much disrespect for the families by assuming the people involved had to have done something wrong.
We take our lives in our hands each and every day. To say that someone should not have been boating in those conditions is ridiculous. Who are you to say what optimum conditions to boat in are? As for the GPS, anyone who is a real boater knows that GPS is only a backup system. If you cannot navigate a body of water without a GPS then you do not belong out on it.

[tis]

I don't know how many of you have been caught in a thunderstorm at night, but I can tell you from experience, the lake can be very, very dark and you cannot see an inch in front of you. You can't even see the buoys. It is very scary. We are seasoned boaters and were out there many years ago in that situation. We got lost and took three and a half hours to find our way home. We just couldn't tell where we were.

[ITD]

ITD and RI SWAMP YANKEE.....are you really buying FLL's denial ?? That post is right in line with his previous postings. So, some stranger just happened to dream up the name FL Less and make a post that is very typical of his views.
Sorry....I don't buy it FLL......GUILTY AS CHARGED

Yeah, I buy it and I believe him. The guy is out in left field sometimes and he does like to stir up the pot, but for the most part I think he is a good guy. I think if he had actually done it, he would be man enough to own up to it. It would be pretty easy to post under someone else's name in another venue, in fact I think if I look back I could find some admissions of people posting clandestinely in an off shore forum, collecting information.

I think the person who did it is lower than low and should be hiding like the little wuss they are............

[Orion]

As for the GPS, anyone who is a real boater knows that GPS is only a backup system. If you cannot navigate a body of water without a GPS then you do not belong out on it.


That's exactly right. There is a lesson here for all boaters, and that is really the intent of the so-called "criticism" and hypothesizing. All boaters need to understand that when they are navigating at night on Lake Winnipesaukee, they are already in a SERIOUS condition that demands total attention of the captain. If you don't know exactly where you are, you should be at headway speed. Headway speed does not cause the damage shown, but I'm not speculating it was over 25 mph either. As far as navigation is concerned, you need to employ backup systems. The depth sounder, chart, eyes, spotlights, ears, and GPS all complement each other. In aviation, you don't rely on one instrument, but correlate all other indicators where possible. If you are heading across a certain area of the broads and expect 80' depth and the bottom is rising rapidly, cut the throttle until you figure out what's going on.

Let's all learn something from this mishap.

[HUH]

My sincere condolences to all involved. Accidents happen whether in a kayak or power boat. Life is fragile
To all those who brought up the speed issue or any other factors in a speculative manor, " IM DISGUSTED"

[Phantom]

Let me start by saying that I love this site. For years I have used it to keep up with resturaunt reviews, what's new on the lake, and for timely news that can not be found from any other source at a place (Winni) that I can't get up to enough times during the season. With that said:

I am Disgusted & Appalled, saddened actually, when reading through this thread. So Much Garbage about indivial expert "Opinions" as to wether or not speed was a factor/wether the boat had electronics/inside the 150' rule/wether FLL posted in the UL or not ........ on and on and on. KNOCK IT OFF !! a young adult died and two others were (and remain) seriously injured. Have a little respect Forum members ..... it coulda been your daughter out there!!

I hope that future posts will stick to advising and informing us of new "facts" as they surface and not speculation or opinions. For example: I for one, until reading the Monitor article could not figure out in my feeble head why Erica (whom I do not know personally) was headed Southeast as first reported in the news (here in Mass). After reading the article -- a great post and the type I have come to expect of this crowd -- I now know she was headed back from her dad's house towards a cabin on Sleeper Isl. To which makes all the sense in the world NOW (to me) why she was even near Diamond at 2:30am heading in a "Southeast" direction.

As a father of 3 girls in Erica's age group my heartfelt Sympathy go out to each of the families. May they find a way to bear through this tragic time.

[4Fun]

That's exactly right. There is a lesson here for all boaters, and that is really the intent of the so-called "criticism" and hypothesizing. All boaters need to understand that when they are navigating at night on Lake Winnipesaukee, they are already in a SERIOUS condition that demands total attention of the captain. If you don't know exactly where you are, you should be at headway speed. Headway speed does not cause the damage shown, but I'm not speculating it was over 25 mph either. As far as navigation is concerned, you need to employ backup systems. The depth sounder, chart, eyes, spotlights, ears, and GPS all complement each other. In aviation, you don't rely on one instrument, but correlate all other indicators where possible. If you are heading across a certain area of the broads and expect 80' depth and the bottom is rising rapidly, cut the throttle until you figure out what's going on.

Let's all learn something from this mishap.


Good points Orion. Does anyone know what the contour of the bottom looks liike there? Does it go from 50' to 0' is short order or gradually come up to the shore?

Phantom, I don't understand why we can not dicuss what happend and ALL learn a little something from it while still being respectful to the people involved? All of the issues brought up in this thread are important. All the critics and theorys will sit in peoplels memory to help avoid MANY different situations in the future.

[2Blackdogs]

I don't know how many of you have been caught in a thunderstorm at night, but I can tell you from experience, the lake can be very, very dark and you cannot see an inch in front of you. You can't even see the buoys. It is very scary. We are seasoned boaters and were out there many years ago in that situation. We got lost and took three and a half hours to find our way home. We just couldn't tell where we were.
I wouldn't go there.

BoatEd.com is discussing this incident, and they are being very critical of operating in fog. One reason I hope the discussion moves on with the "nuts and bolts" of the incident to another thread...NOT this one.

[Phantom]

Phantom, I don't understand why we can not dicuss what happend and ALL learn a little something from it while still being respectful to the people involved?


4Fun -- I have absolutely no issue with discussion ...... your absoultely correct .... we all can learn from it. I simply shake my head when it is purely "speculation and conjecture" or worse, off topic (example the short discussion of the definition of an accident).

[joanna616]

I don't understand why we can not dicuss what happend and ALL learn a little something from it while still being respectful to the people involved? All of the issues brought up in this thread are important. All the critics and theorys will sit in peoplels memory to help avoid MANY different situations in the future.


Because it is just too soon.

[kthy66]

Boat driver's condition unchanged (http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080618/GJNEWS02/934665547/-1/CITNEWS)

[SIKSUKR]

Here's an update from the Laconia Citizen.

Boat driver's condition unchanged (http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080618/GJNEWS02/934665547/-1/CITNEWS)

[4Fun]

Because it is just too soon.

I couldn't disagree more. This discussion is not about the people involved in the accident. It is about the accident itself. I don't think anyone has said anything but prayers for anyone involved.

I firmly beleive ALL the speculation guessing will have an impact on everyone involved in this discussion. While we have no idea what the factors were that caused the accident we have discussed many that will stick in the minds of us and help us make better decisions in the future.

Patchy fog, watching the contour on a depth finder, using GPS, just plain being more aware are all things that we will pay more attention to when faced with a situation on the lake. We are a species that LEARNS from mistakes. This is a good discussion.

[VtSteve]

Come on, spare us your self righteous indignation. This is the whole point...the so called speed limit crowd has called attention to these risks all along. People debate speeding/DWI/weapons violations and such after any tragedy because there is a need for serious reform now, not next week, month, or year. This is not a mark of disrespect for the dead/injured but rather concern that these tragdies are not repeated. You are the one who is making this an issue of pro/con speed limits. Investigations over the coming weeks will shed light on the circumstances.


Then why not wait for the investigations to prove yourself less than brilliant? Seriously. Who knows or cares how fast the boat was going? I'm sure you do, but whether they were going 25mph or 45mph, the force of impact would still be significant. "These Tragedies", please spare us all your lack of facts and understanding, not to mention the lack of numerous Tragedies there.

If this sad accident had involved an 18' bowrider going 22 mph, and the head of a pro speed limit group was injured, you'd probably shut your mouth. Biased ignorance knows no bounds apparently, and at least 2-3 of you people have shown your complete lack of respect, not to mention complete lack of compassion or class. Your statement to the contrary does not cover up your own personal, compelling need to justify your position. IMO, it reflects poorly on you.

Boating used to be a fraternity, regardless of boat or type of boat. Any boating accident is to be taken seriously, and I've read many stories of such accidents around the country. As such, I offer my condolences to families and friends of people I've never met, never knew. Because as boaters, they are all part of my extended family.

Reform This Turtle.

[Ropetow]

Just got caught up with the forum, and it looks like I was in error stating that FLL made that post to the Union Leader. My regrets for my apparent error.

[Turtle Boy]

Then why not wait for the investigations to prove yourself less than brilliant? Seriously. Who knows or cares how fast the boat was going? I'm sure you do, but whether they were going 25mph or 45mph, the force of impact would still be significant. "These Tragedies", please spare us all your lack of facts and understanding, not to mention the lack of numerous Tragedies there.

If this sad accident had involved an 18' bowrider going 22 mph, and the head of a pro speed limit group was injured, you'd probably shut your mouth. Biased ignorance knows no bounds apparently, and at least 2-3 of you people have shown your complete lack of respect, not to mention complete lack of compassion or class. Your statement to the contrary does not cover up your own personal, compelling need to justify your position. IMO, it reflects poorly on you.

Boating used to be a fraternity, regardless of boat or type of boat. Any boating accident is to be taken seriously, and I've read many stories of such accidents around the country. As such, I offer my condolences to families and friends of people I've never met, never knew. Because as boaters, they are all part of my extended family.

Reform This Turtle.

And if this sad accident had involved an 18' bowrider going 22 mph, and the head of a pro speed limit group was injured,this forum would have lit up like a Christmas tree. So when is a good time to hear something you dont want to hear? I refer you to Winnipesaukee's excellent post this AM on the speed limit thread. He discusses when it's appropriate to discuss the war in Iraq after another soldier has died...immediatly. The driver in this accident was a spokesperson for an anti speed limit organization, in other words she was political. Politicizing this accident? It's like someone being accused of politicizing the Iraq war. As alluded to in other forums, clearly this subject additionally touches a nerve for the GFBL no speed limit crowd because after this accident, any remaining shred of credibility for this group vaporized (see links below).
Mr. Beaudoin is quoted as saying that he didn't know why they were going so fast. Are you going to tell him to shut his mouth too?
For another perspective on how people view some of these recent events, check out the thread under boatered.com; even more revealing are the comments/letters section in today's Union Leader following the article about the accident. I think you may be surprised at some of the comments that appear in forums that are not so predominantly weighted by the GFBL/no limits crowd.
Given the tone of your angry diatribe, you will of course minimize the fact that people on the speed limit side have and continue to offer condolences (including myself) to the victim(s). And a fitting tribute to Ms. Beaudoin would be to decrease the chances that this happens again.
So VtSteve...please check out these links
Reform This VtSteve...see how silly this looks

[Woodsy]

Turtle Boy... and others!

Your way off base here. Until the experts weigh in on the accident, there is no proof that the Formula was exceeding the nighttime limit of 25MPH as proposed by HB-847.

If the accident reconstruction team determines that she was in fact traveling less than the proposed 25 MPH limit, then essentially a speed limit would have done nothing to have prevented this tragedy.

At this point in time, this accident is just that... an accident! The causes of this tragedy will no doubt play out in a VERY public fashion.

Woodsy

[VtSteve]

Turtle Boy... and others!

Your way off base here. Until the experts weigh in on the accident, there is no proof that the Formula was exceeding the nighttime limit of 25MPH as proposed by HB-847. In fact I am willing to bet that the boat was more than likely traveling at speed less than 25 MPH. The Formula is a 15,000 lb fiberglass boat striking a 6' high vertical wall!

If the accident reconstruction team determines that she was in fact traveling less than the proposed 25 MPH limit, then essentially a speed limit would have done nothing to have prevented this tragedy.

At this point in time, this accident is just that... an accident! The causes of this tragedy will no doubt play out in a VERY public fashion.

Woodsy

Exactly. Like others, I would "expect" the damage to even more severe if the boat was going fast, but what the heck do I know?

[Turtle Boy]

If the accident reconstruction team determines that she was in fact traveling less than the proposed 25 MPH limit, then essentially a speed limit would have done nothing to have prevented this tragedy.



Though in reality if a boater as experienced as Erica Blizzard misses the channel between Diamond and Rattlesnake at night at 25 MPH, how does that bode for the average (less experienced)boater going 25 MPH at night? Some feel that 25 MPH was too high a compromise for night time and that 20 MPH(Squam) or less (some other states) would be more appropriate to consider after HB 847 sunsets.
Anyway, thankyou (seriously) for your calm, measured, polite reply..TB

[Ryan]

Though in reality if a boater as experienced as Erica Hazzard misses the channel between Diamond and Rattlesnake at night at 25 MPH, how does that bode for the average (less experienced)boater going 25 MPH at night? Some feel that 25 MPH was too high a compromise for night time and that 20 MPH(Squam) or less (some other states) would be more appropriate to consider after HB 847 sunsets.
Anyway, thankyou (seriously) for your calm, measured, polite reply..TB

Thank YOU for your detailed conclusions on the events that transpired. No need to wait for the official investigation now. Case closed. All Hail HB847.

[VtSteve]

Turtle, everything posted here and elsewhere is conjecture, pure and simple. This was a larger boat, apparently off course, and hitting a large object above the waterline. It resulted in loss of life and severe injuries.

We can all speculate about what happened. My initial thoughts are of no valid concern, but they are of genuine horror. This type of accident can happen to anybody, anywhere. We'll probably find out the facts as they become available. For now, I prefer to think it is a terrible tragedy that happened to friends and fellow boaters. I prefer to assume nothing other than a simple accident occurred, because that's just the way I am.

I don't know whether your knee-jerk reaction about the "other" thread is simply because you care so gosh darn much about people, or maybe there's something else going on here. All I know is that Sunday was Father's day, and there some pretty miserable, heartbroken parents out there.

I'm not a GFBL boater, and I'm probably a bit more anal about being cautious than average. Most of us care deeply about friends and family, and take our role and responsibilities as Skipper pretty seriously. I've read the thread over at BoaterEd. Much more civil, but no more informative.

[VtSteve]

Though in reality if a boater as experienced as Erica Hazzard misses the channel between Diamond and Rattlesnake at night at 25 MPH, how does that bode for the average (less experienced)boater going 25 MPH at night? Some feel that 25 MPH was too high a compromise for night time and that 20 MPH(Squam) or less (some other states) would be more appropriate to consider after HB 847 sunsets.
Anyway, thankyou (seriously) for your calm, measured, polite reply..TB


The laws currently provide that everyone is responsible for piloting their boats in a manner that is safe in the given conditions. I know many like solid numbers, laws, tables and data. Too fast for given conditions is a common citing in many accidents. It can be as slow as 1 mph as far as I'm concerned. I'm not scared about night boating, but I am scared about boaters without lights, kayaks on moonless nights, fog, I'm just cautious. But many seem to need a special law.

It appears from the data so far that it was at least very dark, likely raining, "possibly" foggy. I'd be going slow on a night like that. I'd probably not go out on the lake if I didn't have to. If those very conditions existed at the time of the accident, then the you know what would have been superseded by the old laws anyway. And I think you know that.

[Turtle Boy]

The laws currently provide that everyone is responsible for piloting their boats in a manner that is safe in the given conditions. I know many like solid numbers, laws, tables and data. Too fast for given conditions is a common citing in many accidents. It can be as slow as 1 mph as far as I'm concerned. I'm not scared about night boating, but I am scared about boaters without lights, kayaks on moonless nights, fog, I'm just cautious. But many seem to need a special law.

It appears from the data so far that it was at least very dark, likely raining, "possibly" foggy. I'd be going slow on a night like that. I'd probably not go out on the lake if I didn't have to. If those very conditions existed at the time of the accident, then the you know what would have been superseded by the old laws anyway. And I think you know that.

And I do see your point and am grateful that the tone here has ratcheted down a notch (mine too). My concern is that on a dark foggy rainy night, to do the damage I saw on that boat, 25 MPH would not fit the "reasonable and prudent" criteria. We'll just have to wait and see.
And I'm sorry if it seemed I was belittling your earlier post. What strikes a nerve with me is that on this forum the speed limit people have often been portrayed as being pure evil. I know (all) of you don't believe this. I''m very protective of my small family and do not want to wake up at 2:30 AM with a 37' formula boat in my grandson's bed on top of him, or for him to be hit in the open water as happened to that man in '02 in Meredith.
Anyway,thanks...TB

[kjbathe]

Against my better judgment, here goes...

No speed limit, no matter how high or low it's set, is going to be a magic prevent-all for accidents. Short of banning human presence on the water's surface, there is nothing that will prevent an operator from accidentally missing a marker, hitting a shoal, or running into an island. It might help minimize the damage if one does those things at a lower speed, but we can't legislate away the fact that accidents can and will happen.

That being said, all we know right now is enough to fuel conjecture and speculation. We can only guess at speed. We don't know for certain who was at the helm (although we think we have an idea based on press reports). We've heard conflicting reports about the weather -- was it foggy, rainy, had it cleared, was there some moonlight? Those reports came from different observations around the lake at differing times on the night in question. I've looked across that part of the lake from the shore on a mostly clear night and viewed only inky darkness over the water where I knew a Diamond and a Rattlesnake Island should be, but darned if I could see them. Multiply that 10-fold trying to figure it out while under way. We just don't know.

Now, also against my better judgment, I'm going to hazard a semi-educated guess at speed and do so based solely on the weight, position and damage of the boat shown in the photo above and some common references. I'll admit my marine structural engineering experience comes from designing nuclear-powered underwater weapons platforms with advanced materials and not the composite-layup pleasure boats being discussed here, but the fundamental engineering principles don't change. (Great.... more speculation.... ;))

Last year a boat ran aground on Eagle Island and ended up ON EAGLE ISLAND, well into the trees. That wasn't the case in this accident. And in looking at the photos, the damage is limited to the first 20% or so of the length. What looks catastrophic at first seems to be fairly well contained. It appears the top portion of the bow remains intact although disconnected, possibly sheared horizontally where it came in contact to what appears to be a roughly 90-degree edge of the rock in the Channel 9 video. That seems reasonable on the surface. In addition, the rest of the hull appears to have split and peeled back along the keel line. Those are what the two flaps of hull hanging down look like to me. This also seems like a reasonable mode of crack propagation and failure for perpendicular contact of the rigid axis of the hull to a stationary surface. In the photo, the lift harness is compressing the deck and hull and some delamination of the deck/hull interface seems to be present. I don't know if this is a result of loading/unloading of the boat by crane after the designed structural integrity of the vessel had been compromised, or if that was a result of the collision itself, but for the sake of speculation, I'll guess the latter.

What I'd really like to know is how heavy the anchor is and how far away the summer camp is that allegedly got nicked by the anchor. Putting those two pieces together would give us an approximate idea of the momentum present and required to get the anchor from the boat to the building, thus yielding an approximate speed of the boat at the point of anchor departure. But even then, that calculation quickly gets complicated by whether or not the anchor was mounted, how much drag there was on the winding mechanism, blah, blah, blah, but it would be nice to know.

Anyway, that the boat reportedly came to rest in the water and not ON the island, that the hull structural failure is limited to the front of the boat and that it appears to be relatively well contained separation and delamination, and that we can't currently account for the cause of the hull/deck separation (although I'd be comfortable assuming initially that this is where much of the collision energy may have been dissipated, also accounting for the reported loud noise), I'm guessing (emphasis on guessing) that people will be surprised at the speed with which this collision took place. I'm way way way out here on this limb speculating based on many assumptions and one photo, but I don't think the speed at impact is going to be nearly as high as people think it was. But time will bear that out.

We now return to our regularly-scheduled agenda-driven finger pointing... ;)

[Turtle Boy]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy
Though in reality if a boater as experienced as Erica Hazzard misses the channel between Diamond and Rattlesnake at night at 25 MPH, how does that bode for the average (less experienced)boater going 25 MPH at night?

Thank YOU for your detailed conclusions on the events that transpired. No need to wait for the official investigation now. Case closed. All Hail HB847.

There are no conclusions here, only the statement that if a boater as experienced as Ms. Blizzard can miss this channel, what are we to expect of less experienced boaters.
Your rather nasty, bitter, and sarcastic response is something I've referred to in the past on this forum, that some posters diminish any semblance of civilized and intellectual discourse. Other (former) posters on this forum have contacted me saying this is what made them stop posting here...this near rabid attack against anything at all pro speed limit. What you have left is a forum where nearly everybody has the same opinion. Refer to the posts at boatered.com and after today's article on the accident in the Union Leader if you want to see some other opinions. Don't you think you could do better than this Ryan?

[B R]

TB,

The difference here is you are trying to promote an agenda and Erica is the one paying the price. When Mr Hartman was tragically killed, no one on this forum tried to do anything but write sympathies to the families. When the trial tried to bring up the "there was no light on his boat at the time" theory, no one here used that and promoted it as even a remote possibility. A lot of us don't see the same sympathy coming from the pro-speed limit crowd. We see them using this tragic accident to promote their cause and I personally find it very distasteful.

Go ahead, attack!!!

[SAMIAM]

Just a note to the speed limit folks whom are gleefully waiting for charges against Erica for exceeding the speed limit and BWI.......Erica rarely drinks and if she does it is a social glass of wine.I'm guessing that there are some who visualize a drunken,crazed, go fast boater ripping through the broads at 2 o'clock in the morning.But, what you will find,I believe,is a girl and her friends who went out to play a fathers day trick on her dad and simply missed a marker in the fog.
Please don't act indignant.....some of your posts speak for themselves.

[Islander]

A lot of us don't see the same sympathy coming from the pro-speed limit crowd.



I think you are not looking hard enough!

The "leaders" of the pro-speed limit side has been either silent or extremely sympathetic. I did a quick check and find that the four members you are talking about have 30, 36, 32 and 5 posts. I don't think they represent our movement.

My heart goes out to the families involved. This is not the time for idle speculation.

[2Blackdogs]

BR:

Oh, you can say that Erica is paying the price all right, and sympathies did abound back then, but your memory of the outrage during Mr Hartman's tragic death tells us "You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know".

This forum ranted for days even before we learned who the perpetrator was and where his boat was hidden away. The white stern light was indeed used as a good defense by some still posting here.

Years later, the legal team of Sisti & Twomey was criticized by one of the same posters as being inadequate for Pamela Smart's successful murder of her husband, "so what could Littlefield have expected when he hired the same New Hampshire legal team?"

The outrageous support continues.

[VtSteve]

TB,

The difference here is you are trying to promote an agenda and Erica is the one paying the price. When Mr Hartman was tragically killed, no one on this forum tried to do anything but write sympathies to the families. When the trial tried to bring up the "there was no light on his boat at the time" theory, no one here used that and promoted it as even a remote possibility. A lot of us don't see the same sympathy coming from the pro-speed limit crowd. We see them using this tragic accident to promote their cause and I personally find it very distasteful.

Go ahead, attack!!!


Now now. What is not very helpful is that the PSL crowd refuses to acknowledge anything other than a simple speed limit law.

In each and every case presented, time after time, probably this one as well, existing laws were broken, or, it was just an accident due to human misjudgment.

They simply cannot deal with not having a neat little legislation package to feel good about. I know these accidents frustrate many, especially the ones that have been discussed many times. The 28 mph accident was infamous for misunderstanding the problem. In areas of increased enforcement all around the country, accidents go down over the long run, and best of all, repeat offenders get thrown out.

It's not a perfect world, and stuff happens.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy
Though in reality if a boater as experienced as Erica Hazzard misses the channel between Diamond and Rattlesnake at night at 25 MPH, how does that bode for the average (less experienced)boater going 25 MPH at night?


Referring to her as Erica Hazzard is just plain rude and uncalled for, especially given the circumstances. For whatever the reasoning may be, she probably has more boating experience than you or most on this forum. She grew up in the industry. Put your head back in your shell or go troll elsewhere.

[Turtle Boy]

TB,

The difference here is you are trying to promote an agenda and Erica is the one paying the price. When Mr Hartman was tragically killed, no one on this forum tried to do anything but write sympathies to the families. When the trial tried to bring up the "there was no light on his boat at the time" theory, no one here used that and promoted it as even a remote possibility. A lot of us don't see the same sympathy coming from the pro-speed limit crowd. We see them using this tragic accident to promote their cause and I personally find it very distasteful.

Go ahead, attack!!!

But wait a minute. I respectfully want to point out my post from 4:33 PM today. My "agenda" is that I would not want this 37 foot Formula boat to be landing in my grandson's bedroom at 2:30 AM. Clearly the GFBL/ no speed limits people have an agenda too. "Promote my cause"?...Sure...my cause is that I don't want a boat similar to the one involved in the fatal accident this past weekend to kill one of my family members. I would find that to be very distasteful. And as my previous posts infer, what the speed limit proponents also find distasteful is the premise made by people like you that this "agenda" of concern for their family is so inherently evil and self-serving.

[brk-lnt]

.Sure...my cause is that I don't want a boat similar to the one involved in the fatal accident this past weekend to kill one of my family members.

Then stay FAR away from the lake. Anything less greatly increases your risk of being involved in a random accident.

All the legislation in the world won't make the lake "safe". Legislating to get as close as reasonably possible goes against most of the founding principles of this country and only serves to dumb down society.

Next you'll be recommending that we all take a gramme Soma...

[Turtle Boy]

Referring to her as Erica Hazzard is just plain rude and uncalled for, especially given the circumstances. For whatever the reasoning may be, she probably has more boating experience than you or most on this forum. She grew up in the industry. Put your head back in your shell or go troll elsewhere.

Go back to my origional post and you will see that this was quickly (and I thought) quietly corrected. I was reading the post to my wife and realized the mistake and said, "oh boy, give me the lap top, they'll go nuts over this one". However, if you check the phone book, you probably will find that Blizzard and Hazzard are both equally uncommon surnames. Truly no offense was intended by this mistake.
As far as your rude and prickley comment about putting my head in my shell or go troll elsewhere, I put forth my inference from earlier that it is sad that one of your most visible spokespersons tacitly became one of ours last weekend. Yes, the last shred of credibility of the GFBL/no limits crowd vaporized with this accident. Very sad

[Bear Islander]

But wait a minute. I respectfully want to point out my post from 4:33 PM today. My "agenda" is that I would not want this 37 foot Formula boat to be landing in my grandson's bedroom at 2:30 AM. Clearly the GFBL/ no speed limits people have an agenda too. "Promote my cause"?...Sure...my cause is that I don't want a boat similar to the one involved in the fatal accident this past weekend to kill one of my family members. I would find that to be very distasteful. And as my previous posts infer, what the speed limit proponents also find distasteful is the premise made by people like you that this "agenda" of concern for their family is so inherently evil and self-serving.

I fully understand your agenda. However this is not the time or the place to push that agenda. You are doing your cause more harm than good in my opinion. Give it a rest for now.

[Turtle Boy]

I fully understand your agenda. However this is not the time or the place to push that agenda. You are doing your cause more harm than good in my opinion. Give it a rest for now.

Please refer to Winnipesaukee's post on the speed limit thread from earlier this am

[Turtle Boy]

in fact, here it is

As the U.S. Constitution says, the press (i.e. truth telling) is absolutely necessary in order to have a free state. When we allow the press to take steps away from truth-telling, it affects us all.

Where in the Constitution does it say anything remotely close that? The First Amendment guarantees the press freedom to publish information (whether truthful or not--it doesn't specify, nor does it need to) without the government interfering with it or censoring it in any way.

This forum is a form of the press and its users have the freedom of expression on it--although the Webmaster has a right to censor, but is very good about keeping it a medium for the free exchange of information.

The 1A was created to protect both the popular views of the majority AND the unpopular views of the minority. Anyone here is free to discuss the speed limit debate with regard to the recent accident and that discussion should be respected. There is already a thread of everyone sending their condolences to the families involved.

Given that, it is both healthy and beneficial to the Winnipesaukee community for there to be a thread about this. There was no "grieving-period wait" to discuss the politics of 9/11. We continue to discuss the politics of the conflict in Iraq, and do not "wait" a period of time every time a soldier dies. Yes, we all feel terrible about the accident and wish the families the best. But there is more to discuss.

[Bear Islander]

And I have the right to MY opinion. At this time people are in shock, angry, frustrated or emotional. You are not going to change any minds in this environment. You can only push both sides farther apart.

In this life there is a time to speak up, and a time to shut up, this is the latter.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

... Sorry....I don't buy it FLL......GUILTY AS CHARGEDI am still not ready to jump to conclusions and you are free to believe what you want.

[HUH]

Go back to my origional post and you will see that this was quickly (and I thought) quietly corrected. I was reading the post to my wife and realized the mistake and said, "oh boy, give me the lap top, they'll go nuts over this one". However, if you check the phone book, you probably will find that Blizzard and Hazzard are both equally uncommon surnames. Truly no offense was intended by this mistake.
As far as your rude and prickley comment about putting my head in my shell or go troll elsewhere, I put forth my inference from earlier that it is sad that one of your most visible spokespersons tacitly became one of ours last weekend. Yes, the last shred of credibility of the GFBL/no limits crowd vaporized with this accident. Very sadWow.. ive never heard anyone sensationalize anything so much.. Your what I would call the quitisential finger pointer "See, SEE what can happen" when not only do you have no facts to base your rediculous rantings on you show absolutly no empathy for the families who have actually lost a family member.

[flyry49]

If she was exceeding 6 MPH/no wake, speed was a factor. It's obvious the boat was closer to Diamond Island than 150'. " Well maybe if she saw the no wake sign or "the island" she would have slown down", and by the way the headway speed law is 300 feet from shore not 150. nice try tho

[NightWing]

" Well maybe if she saw the no wake sign or "the island" she would have slown down", and by the way the headway speed law is 300 feet from shore not 150. nice try tho

300' only if you are on a 2 person ski craft.

[Skip]

According to this article (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Boat+driver+in+fatal+crash+i mproves&articleId=039aa80b-dc5d-4267-9d50-3f898b11eafc) in today's on-line edition of the Union Leader, Blizzard's condition has been upgraded. Additionally, the Marine Patrol continues to investigate a number of possibilities surrounding the collision.

[B R]

I fully understand your agenda. However this is not the time or the place to push that agenda. You are doing your cause more harm than good in my opinion. Give it a rest for now.

Thank you.

We'll have facts at some point and I'm sure it will be discussed fully then. For now, everything is pure speculation and nothing more.

[Dave R]

" Well maybe if she saw the no wake sign or "the island" she would have slown down", and by the way the headway speed law is 300 feet from shore not 150. nice try tho

Wow, great post. Some corrections are needed though...

There are no "no wake" signs near Diamond Island. The closest is at Smith's Point, more than a mile away and not at all relevant,

"Slown"? Not a word I'm familiar with.

Excerpts from NH law:

270-D:1 Definitions

VI. "Headway speed'' means 6 miles per hour or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way.


270-D:2 General Rules for Vessels Operating on Water

VI. (a) To provide full visibility and control and to prevent their wake from being thrown into or causing excessive rocking to other boats, barges, water skiers, aquaplanes or other boats, rafts or floats, all vessels shall maintain headway speed when within 150 feet from:
(1) Rafts, floats, swimmers.
(2) Permitted swimming areas.
(3) Shore.
(4) Docks.
(5) Mooring fields.
(6) Other vessels.

There are circumstances where this particular law does not apply, but not being able to see an island at night is not one of them.

Simply put: If this one simple law had been obeyed, this accident (and nearly every other tragic accident on the lake, including the one that killed Mr. Hartman) would not have happened.

[HUH]

Wow, great post. Some corrections are needed though...

There are no "no wake" signs near Diamond Island. The closest is at Smith's Point, more than a mile away and not at all relevant,

"Slown"? Not a word I'm familiar with.

Excerpts from NH law:

270-D:1 Definitions

VI. "Headway speed'' means 6 miles per hour or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way.


270-D:2 General Rules for Vessels Operating on Water

VI. (a) To provide full visibility and control and to prevent their wake from being thrown into or causing excessive rocking to other boats, barges, water skiers, aquaplanes or other boats, rafts or floats, all vessels shall maintain headway speed when within 150 feet from:
(1) Rafts, floats, swimmers.
(2) Permitted swimming areas.
(3) Shore.
(4) Docks.
(5) Mooring fields.
(6) Other vessels.

There are circumstances where this particular law does not apply, but not being able to see an island at night is not one of them.

Simply put: If this one simple law had been obeyed, this accident (and nearly every other tragic accident on the lake, including the one that killed Mr. Hartman) would not have happened.

An accident is pelotudo called Peteneitor a specific, identifiable, unexpected, unusual and unintended external event which occurs in a particular time and place, without apparent or deliberate cause but with marked effects. It implies a generally negative probabilistic outcome which may have been avoided or prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.
No law can prevent an accident!
You and others that continualy talk about this long list of tragic accidents ?
Please list them off for us. I know of the Hartman case (27 mph I believe and the driver was convicted of BUI and served time)
And this one which is still under investigation and looks to clearly be a tragic accident and nothing more !
This perponderence of tragic accidents thats continualy repeated is pure sensationalism and un called for at this time !

[AC2717]

I noticed there were no bow numbers on the hull, unless it was white or bright letters below the rubrail. If that was a dealer HIN, meaing the plaquard that is put in the windshielf when you go test drive a boat by the dealer, Lakeport could be in serious trouble and that is not a good thing for marina. Let's hope this is not taken into conderation.

Sorry to bring this up but there are these type of people out there, not saying the familys of who got hurt are. DO NOT TAKE THIS IN ANY OTHER WAY BUT AS A MERE POINTING OUT WHAT I SAW IN THE PHOTO

[LDR4]

I have been reading some of these posts regarding this terrible accident over the past few days and have resisted writing my own because I was sure that all of this would eventually die down and did not want to add fuel to the fire. Unfortunately there are way to many people with way too much time on their hands (see turtleboy) that have already been able to conclude the cause of this accident was excessive speed and therefore find it acceptable to use this forum as a place to become Judge and Jury and convict someoneone of something that she has not even had a chance to defend herself of.

Yes I opposed the speed limit bill. I also do not have a boat that will go above 30 mph so it does not, and will not affect how I boat on the lake. I am against the bill because I think that the effort and money that has been put into this debate (by both sides) would be much better served being directed towards things like increased Marine Patrol presence on our lakes (all of them not just Winni) and stricter boater education requirements.
People are going to exceed 45 mph and 25mph whether there is a speed limit in force or not, and the Marine patrol does not, and will have the resources to effectively prevent that.
I don't know whether that boat was doing 20 mph or 50 mph that night. The only people that do (or will) are the people who survived the accident and the officials charged with the responsibility of determining the cause.

There will be plenty of time for everyone involved in the speed limit debate to get in their "I told you so's" once all the facts are determined.
This is still the United States, and we are still all "Innocent until proven Guilty"

Until we hear from those parties, I would suggest that we put this discussion on hold and pray for those recovering and for Stephanie and her family.

[sa meredith]

DaveG
While I certainly agree with the spirit of your post, I believe (as stated earlier), that other than mechanical failure, it really does not matter what the cause is. The captain is responsible for everything that takes place on his/her boat. Everything. And, as has been stated in this forum COUNTLESS times, the first order of reponsibility of the captain, is the safety of his/her passengers. I feel for Erica, as, no matter what, her life had changed forever.
But a girl has died, and there is a reason. I'm sure her family will want answers to all of their questions. And, utimately, I believe the captain will be held responsible for what occured on her boat.

[parrothead]

DaveG
While I certainly agree with the spirit of your post, I believe (as stated earlier), that other than mechanical failure, it really does not matter what the cause is. The captain is responsible for everything that takes place on his/her boat. Everything. And, as has been stated in this forum COUNTLESS times, the first order of reponsibility of the captain, is the safety of his/her passengers. I feel for Erica, as, no matter what, her life had changed forever.
But a girl has died, and there is a reason. I'm sure her family will want answers to all of their questions. And, utimately, I believe the captain will be held responsible for what occured on her boat.

But until the investigation is completed it does no one any good to speculate on what happened in that boat. Until that time we should offer support to the family and friends of these women. I can't imagine what they must be going through, and don't think we should make it worse by trying to pass blame. Just let the investigators do their job.

[VtSteve]

According to this article (http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Boat+driver+in+fatal+crash+i mproves&articleId=039aa80b-dc5d-4267-9d50-3f898b11eafc) in today's on-line edition of the Union Leader, Blizzard's condition has been upgraded. Additionally, the Marine Patrol continues to investigate a number of possibilities surrounding the collision.


Great news Skip, thanks for the update.

[VtSteve]

I wouldn't go there.

BoatEd.com is discussing this incident, and they are being very critical of operating in fog. One reason I hope the discussion moves on with the "nuts and bolts" of the incident to another thread...NOT this one.

I'm sure you told them all of your personal weather observations from that night. Remember, the full moon and clear skies? Seems it was pretty easy to see the outline of the shore and all that?

[SIKSUKR]

And I have the right to MY opinion. At this time people are in shock, angry, frustrated or emotional. You are not going to change any minds in this environment. You can only push both sides farther apart.

In this life there is a time to speak up, and a time to shut up, this is the latter.

Thanks BI.Erica Hazzard huh?This clown is way out of line.Just incredibly brutal.I hope you never have to read crap like this about one of your friends.

[parrothead]

But wait a minute. I respectfully want to point out my post from 4:33 PM today. My "agenda" is that I would not want this 37 foot Formula boat to be landing in my grandson's bedroom at 2:30 AM. Clearly the GFBL/ no speed limits people have an agenda too. "Promote my cause"?...Sure...my cause is that I don't want a boat similar to the one involved in the fatal accident this past weekend to kill one of my family members. I would find that to be very distasteful. And as my previous posts infer, what the speed limit proponents also find distasteful is the premise made by people like you that this "agenda" of concern for their family is so inherently evil and self-serving.

I don't think that the either group would like to see a boat land on anyone. This was an accident, there is a set of circumstances that caused it to happen, and we don't know what those circumstances are. You talk about what could happen, a boat hitting your house and landing in your Grandson's bedroom. At this time you thankfully don't have to deal with a tragedy. You don't think that it is self-serving to use this tragedy to further your agenda? People on this forum know the families, and are in pain. There is a time and a place for debate and this isn't one of them. Let the authorities complete their investigation before yo pass judgment.

[wildwoodfam]

I noticed there were no bow numbers on the hull, unless it was white or bright letters below the rubrail.

DO NOT TAKE THIS IN ANY OTHER WAY BUT AS A MERE POINTING OUT WHAT I SAW IN THE PHOTO

You didn't see the numbers because - THERE WAS NO BOW REMAINING!!!

I continue to read these posts - many while shaking my head, some get my attention enough to call someone else over to read the post to make sure I am not misreading or misunderstanding.....SURELY you are kidding about the bow numbers?????

Unbelievable!!

[secondcurve]

The facts surrounding this tragedy will come with time. However, the accident serves as an unfortunate reminder that we all should have adequate insurance on our boats and also anyone with significant assets should have an umbrella policy. If a lady with as much boating experience as Ms. Blizzard can get into this type of accident it can happen to most anyone.

[Dave R]

You and others that continualy talk about this long list of tragic accidents ?
Please list them off for us. I know of the Hartman case (27 mph I believe and the driver was convicted of BUI and served time)
And this one which is still under investigation and looks to clearly be a tragic accident and nothing more !
This perponderence of tragic accidents thats continualy repeated is pure sensationalism and un called for at this time !

I have never mentioned any "long list of tragic accidents". I do know there has been more than the two you mention though. There are many dumb and shockingly benign accidents in the lake's past that would have been avoided by simply following the 150' law too. That's not sensational, it's simply common sense.

[HUH]

I have never mentioned any "long list of tragic accidents". I do know there has been more than the two you mention though. There are many dumb and shockingly benign accidents in the lake's past that would have been avoided by simply following the 150' law too. That's not sensational, it's simply common sense.Sorry, I did misread your post and thought it read that a speed limit would have eliminated this accident. I see that you were referring to the 150 rule and agree 100%. First thing that popped into my mind when I read about the accident was that they were off course.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

With all the comments about "safe speed" I came accross this on boat-ed.com which sounds almost exactly like what I learned in a USCG boating course I took many years ago.

Safe Speed

A safe speed is a speed less than the maximum at which the operator can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and stop within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In establishing a safe operating speed, the operator must take into account visibility; traffic density; ability to maneuver the vessel (stopping distance and turning ability); background light at night; proximity of navigational hazards; draft of the vessel; limitations of radar equipment; and the state of wind, sea, and current.

[flyry49]

Wow, great post. Some corrections are needed though...

There are no "no wake" signs near Diamond Island. The closest is at Smith's Point, more than a mile away and not at all relevant,

"Slown"? Not a word I'm familiar with.

Excerpts from NH law:

270-D:1 Definitions

VI. "Headway speed'' means 6 miles per hour or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way.


270-D:2 General Rules for Vessels Operating on Water

VI. (a) To provide full visibility and control and to prevent their wake from being thrown into or causing excessive rocking to other boats, barges, water skiers, aquaplanes or other boats, rafts or floats, all vessels shall maintain headway speed when within 150 feet from:
(1) Rafts, floats, swimmers.
(2) Permitted swimming areas.
(3) Shore.
(4) Docks.
(5) Mooring fields.
(6) Other vessels.

There are circumstances where this particular law does not apply, but not being able to see an island at night is not one of them.

Simply put: If this one simple law had been obeyed, this accident (and nearly every other tragic accident on the lake, including the one that killed Mr. Hartman) would not have happened.


sorry if u dont like how i spell words, this forum isnt about writing formal essays so if it bugs you 2 damn bad. but u know exactly what it means. and you totally reached my point when i said if she saw a no wake sign. i know this island is terribly marked which also makes it hard to see it at night in the "rain" yes we all know she was moving faster than headway speed and breaking that law. im sure if she saw the island she would have tried to obey the headway speed law. so until you can prove how fast she was going stop talking about it

[AMekler]

You didn't see the numbers because - THERE WAS NO BOW REMAINING!!!

I continue to read these posts - many while shaking my head, some get my attention enough to call someone else over to read the post to make sure I am not misreading or misunderstanding.....SURELY you are kidding about the bow numbers?????

Unbelievable!!

there were no bow numbers on the boat. there was a dealer plate on the boat.
AMekler

[Dave R]

sorry if u dont like how i spell words, this forum isnt about writing formal essays so if it bugs you 2 damn bad. but u know exactly what it means. and you totally reached my point when i said if she saw a no wake sign. i know this island is terribly marked which also makes it hard to see it at night in the "rain" yes we all know she was moving faster than headway speed and breaking that law. im sure if she saw the island she would have tried to obey the headway speed law. so until you can prove how fast she was going stop talking about it

When you are trying to make a convincing argument, good spelling and grammar help make your argument seem more credible. Your spelling and grammar are an excellent match for your argument.

[kthy66]

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080620/GJNEWS02/923893320/-1/CITNEWS


Lets keep things in perspective

[woodswalk]

My wife and I often look to this forum for information. last night while she was on line I asked her to see what the winni site had to say about this recent incident. her response from the other room was simply "oh my god".

Shame all over you!!!- not all, (and you know who you are).
After looking through some of these posts, Me thinks a good portion of the boating crowd ought get their own know-it-all website and let the winni site do what it does best-
be a source one can go to to find out valuable information. :yawn:

[NHKathy]

I have to say, I agree with Woodswalk - this should really stop. This thread has gotten WAY out of hand... :(
I also agree that this site is where to go for a source of valuable info about the Lakes Region, but every day when I log in lately, this thread is always there on top as having the newest post, and it's just back and forth arguing - no new info (such as updated conditions of those injured).
My condolences go out to the families involved, and prayers for recovery to the 2 women that were injured.

[VtSteve]

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080620/GJNEWS02/923893320/-1/CITNEWS


Lets keep things in perspective


That was a great tribute to her, sounded like a great woman.

[kthy66]

Yes she really did..
So sad for her parents and siblings. May god grant them serenity and peace in this time of need.

[wildwoodfam]

there were no bow numbers on the boat. there was a dealer plate on the boat.
AMekler


I dont recall reading anything about this being a dealer boat from Channel.

Not that it matters - if she had the dealer plate - there is still no issue. My point was - post on not seeing bow numbers was pretty obvious considering there was no bow left.

[AMekler]

I was on the island after the event sunday morning and noticed a dealer plate near the passenger side windshield. I'll check my pictures.
AMekler

[codeman671]

I dont recall reading anything about this being a dealer boat from Channel.

Not that it matters - if she had the dealer plate - there is still no issue. My point was - post on not seeing bow numbers was pretty obvious considering there was no bow left.

This was not a dealer boat from Channel...???

It was from Lakeport Landing, the family dealership. It is listed on their site for sale.

[AMekler]

see the photo attachement

[codeman671]

see the photo attachement

The picture depicts just in front of the windshield area, not the front/side of the bow where a number would be found. ???

If there was a dealer plate it would most likely be placed on the dash however could be tossed anywhere with that hit.

[pmj]

No that it matters, but boats do not need to show bow/registration numbers if they have USCG documentation. That said, most lake boats probably do not apply for documentation but you never know


it's a totally moot point.

[wildwoodfam]

Gotta love digital cameras and the ability to enlarge the photo, I can now see the dealer plate on the boat!

And my apologies - I said Channel and of course new it was Lakeport. That's what happens when you are on the other side of the lake, everything beyond the Weirs blurs together!

Still a very sad story unfolding here...

[SAMIAM]

Am I the only one confused ? as I scroll down ,I don't seem to find any order in the posts.Last post was on the 16th and I key onto "more replies below currant depth"...and still can't find todays post. I'm a 3 on a scale of 10 when it comes to computer skills.....guess I need someone to explain things to me.

[Seadoo]

Am I the only one confused ? as I scroll down ,I don't seem to find any order in the posts.Last post was on the 16th and I key onto "more replies below currant depth"...and still can't find todays post. I'm a 3 on a scale of 10 when it comes to computer skills.....guess I need someone to explain things to me.

Do not worry about it, it's all bull anyway.

[Seaplane Pilot]

This week's Gilford Steamer - a local news rag - (emphasis added) reported the boat driver's name as "Erica Buzzard". Totally disrespectful and unprofessional, even though it was most certainly unintentional. Now how difficult it is to get a fact like this right? Doesn't the editor proof read?

On top of this, several of the news articles over the past week spelled both Winnipesaukee and Gilford incorrectly. How are we supposed to believe these articles, when these media cannot even get simple facts correct? Embarrasing to say the least.


http://granitestatenews.com/pdf/GIL.2008.06.19.pdf See page 2.

[Tank151]

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071219/GJNEWS02/709126805


Skip,
See paragraph 3 of the above Citizen article. I don't disagree with your comments above about Mr. Littlefield, but it certainly does seem to me that he was aquitted of being drunk. Do I think he probably was? Sure. But I think he was not found guilty of that charge.

Drunk conviction or NOT, Mr. Littlefield admittingly was drinking which was verified by receipt information at the Dockside Restaurant and by accounts of witnesses who observed him impaired!

His accident killed an person as well as put himself, his wife and children and friends lives in jeopardy. Let's not forget, he cowardly left the scene of the accident, leaving the injured and could have assited them with Medical assistance.

We don't have the FACTS on the Diamond Island accident, so these two incidents can't be compared!

[SIKSUKR]

I had a look at the crash site on Saturday.I stayed a good 500-700 ft away as not to bother the homeowner,although I did not see any indication of anyone there.It seems little doubt in my mind Erica was headed for Sleepers Island and crashed into Diamond.Obviously she did not see this very unlit island.It appears the the boat hit a 5-6 ft shear wall of granite that would be in the direct path to Diamond.Looking at that wall and also the damage to the boat,it would appear to me it would not take very much speed to result in the damage seen on her boat.The boat had to come to an immediate stop.This is ONLY my uneducated perception of what I've seen.Take it for what it is but I'll be very surprized that when the investigation is complete and if there is a speed determination that it will be more than 20-30 mph.Let me say again that this is just a pure guess on my part but I would think weather will turn out to be the main factor in the crash.

[NHDOLFAN]

I am very curious as to why Marine Patrol has taken this amount of time to make a statement. If the driver was impaired in anyway shape or form, I would think Marine Patrol would make a statement about the incident. If you think about crashes that take place and kill or seriously hurt someone, the police always make some statement about whether alcohol or drugs were a factor. This incident has been hush hush, which I don't understand.

[chipj29]

I am very curious as to why Marine Patrol has taken this amount of time to make a statement. If the driver was impaired in anyway shape or form, I would think Marine Patrol would make a statement about the incident. If you think about crashes that take place and kill or seriously hurt someone, the police always make some statement about whether alcohol or drugs were a factor. This incident has been hush hush, which I don't understand.

The boats driver was in critical condition, I believe in an induced coma. They would most likely need to interview all parties involved before they can make a statement of any kind.

[NHDOLFAN]

I understand that the driver was seriously hurt. However, that would not prohibit Marine Patrol from taking blood samples. I would assume that Marine Patrol could do a lot for speculation, one way or the other.

[Skip]

I am very curious as to why Marine Patrol has taken this amount of time to make a statement. If the driver was impaired in anyway shape or form, I would think Marine Patrol would make a statement about the incident. If you think about crashes that take place and kill or seriously hurt someone, the police always make some statement about whether alcohol or drugs were a factor. This incident has been hush hush, which I don't understand.

This is an extremely serious & sensitive incident. And unlike motor vehicle fatalities, which hapen at an all too often pace even here in New Hampshire, boating fatalities remain a rare event.

The New Hampshire Marine Patrol has perhaps its best and most seasoned investigator at the helm of this investigation, Lt. Tim Dunleavy. I am confident that Dunleavy will conduct an accurate and thorough investigation, and the results of his labor will become fully public at the appropriate juncture.

I would rather the authorities involved, which are obviously the NHMP and most likely a review being conducted by the Belknap County Attorney's Office, take all the time possible to examine all the evidence before coming to any conclusion. Premature speculation on behalf of the investigating authorities could have extremely damaging effects on the victims.

Each case is diufferent. For example, a few weeks ago a woman was killed just over the border in Berwick, Maine in a hit & run accident. The authorities quickly identified the driver but have continued to investigate with no arrest imminent, even though the driver has been identified. Initially the family was upset and went to the media. But after a meeting between the family and the investigators the family is now satisfied with the case and willing to be patient.

There is a lesson to be learned here.

As long as the families directly involved are satisfied with the pace and scope of the investigation, maybe we, as curious spectators, should be respectful and patient as well.

[NHDOLFAN]

I comprehend your point and confident that Lt. Dunleavy will do the best job he can. While there are far less boating fatalities, nonetheless, this is not the 1st one. Do you think Marine Patrol has given info to the families involved? Of course not! They have given them bits and pieces but not the whole piece. I'm sure, at some point soon, one of the papers will file papers for the Right to know. If that happens, then they will have to make a statement vs. being proactive.

[2Blackdogs]

Turtle Boy... and others!

Your way off base here. Until the experts weigh in on the accident, there is no proof that the Formula was exceeding the nighttime limit of 25MPH as proposed by HB-847. In fact I am willing to bet that the boat was more than likely traveling at speed less than 25 MPH. The Formula is a 15,000 lb fiberglass boat striking a 6' high vertical wall!

If the accident reconstruction team determines that she was in fact traveling less than the proposed 25 MPH limit, then essentially a speed limit would have done nothing to have prevented this tragedy.

At this point in time, this accident is just that... an accident! The causes of this tragedy will no doubt play out in a VERY public fashion.

Woodsy
Woodsy, everyone is calling for "no speculation", but you're already calling the speed under 25!

If you'd been at the scene, you'd see that the "6' vertical wall" is actually much less than that. If I'd been standing in a canoe, I'd be looking down at that "wall", not up, and I'm under 6' tall, I assure you.

Even now, as the summer continues to empty the lake, the lake is not at the same level as when I was there. If we're going to speculate as to speed, as SIKSUKR and Woodsy are here, it's really too late to see if the wall is really only 4' or even 3', and the boat well up on plane.

The existing boat could be put on a test sled, and see how far an unsecured anchor would fly.... to strike a wood target at deck height ....when the sled's forward momentum is arrested by cable or chain.

Now, why is it okay to speculate here today and to abandon the discussion already started at the Speed Limits sub-forum? "Hush-hush" seems to be the word of the day!

And isn't Lt. Dunleavy the officer who converted Littlefield's self-suggested 2800 rpms into 28mph?

A "fact" we've been stuck with all these years?

[NightWing]

And isn't Lt. Dunleavy the officer who converted Littlefield's self-suggested 2800 rpms into 28mph?
A "fact" we've been stuck with all these years?

That speed of 28mph was not plucked out of the air but was confirmed in ways other than rpm claimed by the operator. It was determined by exhaustive testing and accident reconstruction by extremely qualified MP officers and personnel. To suggest other is inflammatory and disrespectful to those entrusted by the State to investigate. If LT. Dunleavy said 28mph, then that is what it was.

[Skip]

I comprehend your point and confident that Lt. Dunleavy will do the best job he can. While there are far less boating fatalities, nonetheless, this is not the 1st one. Do you think Marine Patrol has given info to the families involved? Of course not! They have given them bits and pieces but not the whole piece. I'm sure, at some point soon, one of the papers will file papers for the Right to know. If that happens, then they will have to make a statement vs. being proactive.

Just a few final comments.

This is an active law enforcement investigation. As long as the investigation is ongoing the agencies investigating are not subject to disclosure under 91-A (Right to know law).

In many motor vehicle cases where preliminary results are released almost immediately it is because the individual charged was able to give a concious donation of blood, breath or urine and the resulted in immediate arrest. In cases where samples are taken for analysis relative to someone unable to give consent there usually is a much longer process involved. In very serious cases a subsequent charge, if the evidence so dictates, may not occur until an indictment is handed down by a grand jury. Let me add that in this particular case there has been no evidence yet released to indicate that any laws were violated.

Finally, I have no idea and no desire to speculate on what communications may have occured between the families and the investigating authorities. I only gave an example of a nearby case where weeks have passed and no arrest has yet been made, to show that the one week that has occured since this incident is neither unusual nor precedent setting.

The only thing I do know, and will repeat for the last time, is that I have full confidence that the assigned investigators will conduct a proper investigation and release all necessary information to the public in a timely, legal and fair fashion.

[EricP]

Meanwhile, outside of this forum, the rumor mill is in full gear. I am not going to repeat what I have heard as it's all ridiculous and in some cases disrespectful. My point is look what happened when Moses went up the mountain. People don't change! I for one will wait for official communications.

Thank you Skip for your perspective, I couldn't agree more.

[chipj29]

I would think that the person would have to be able to give permission to have blood taken and tested. In absense of that, I would think the police would have to obtain a warrant, and I am sure there would be some sort of court decision. Put it this way, if she were my daughter, I would not want someone taking her blood for anything other than a medical reason. I would fight that as hard as I could. Prove that she acted criminally, then we will talk. Innocent until proven guilty.

That's my opinion, whatever that may be worth.

[ITD]

That speed of 28mph was not plucked out of the air but was confirmed in ways other than rpm claimed by the operator. It was determined by exhaustive testing and accident reconstruction by extremely qualified MP officers and personnel. To suggest other is inflammatory and disrespectful to those entrusted by the State to investigate. If LT. Dunleavy said 28mph, then that is what it was.

:rolleye1: Estimated to be 28 mph, he estimated it.:rolleye1:

[codeman671]

I would think that the person would have to be able to give permission to have blood taken and tested. In absense of that, I would think the police would have to obtain a warrant, and I am sure there would be some sort of court decision. Put it this way, if she were my daughter, I would not want someone taking her blood for anything other than a medical reason. I would fight that as hard as I could. Prove that she acted criminally, then we will talk. Innocent until proven guilty.

That's my opinion, whatever that may be worth.

From a medical standpoint, the hospital would already know at this point however with the medical privacy laws it would take a court order for the investigators to access them. Coming from somewhat of a medical background I can say that they would definitely have to do a full blood screening during the initial triage and for the ongoing treatment process. If there was alcohol, illegal drugs or prescription meds in her system they would have to know immediately as it could have serious effects with other meds used during treatment,

[Skip]

...I would think that the person would have to be able to give permission to have blood taken and tested. In absense of that, I would think the police would have to obtain a warrant, and I am sure there would be some sort of court decision. Put it this way, if she were my daughter, I would not want someone taking her blood for anything other than a medical reason. I would fight that as hard as I could. Prove that she acted criminally, then we will talk. Innocent until proven guilty...


First, let me reiterate that no evidence has been provided to the public indicating that any crime has taken place in reference to the discussed incident.

That said, I provide the following RSA to show that in the case we are discussing, mandatory blood testing must occur as required by State law. Consent is not optional.



265-A:16 Blood Testing of Certain Motor Vehicle Fatalities. – When a collision, boating accident, or OHRV accident results in death or serious bodily injury to any person, all drivers or operators involved, whether living or deceased, and all deceased vehicle, boat, or OHRV occupants and pedestrians involved shall be tested for evidence of alcohol or controlled drugs. A law enforcement officer, authorized agent, or peace officer shall request a licensed physician, registered nurse, certified physician's assistant, or qualified medical technician or medical technologist to withdraw blood from each driver or operator involved if living and from the body of each deceased driver or operator, deceased occupant, or deceased pedestrian, in accordance with RSA 611-B:14, II, for the purpose of testing for evidence of alcohol content or controlled drugs; provided that in the case of a living driver or operator the officer has probable cause to believe that the driver or operator caused the collision or accident. All tests made under this section shall be conducted by the forensic science laboratory established in RSA 106-B:2-a or in any other laboratory capable of conducting such tests which is licensed under the laws of this or any other state and which has also been licensed by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services under the Clinical Laboratory Improvement Act of 1988, as amended. A copy of the report of any such test shall be kept on file by the medical examiner. The filed report is not a public record under RSA 91-A. However, the report shall be made available to the following:
I. Any highway safety agency for use in compiling statistics to evaluate the effectiveness of its program; and
II. Any person, including his or her legal representative, who is or may be involved in a civil, criminal, or administrative action or proceeding arising out of an accident in connection with which the test was performed.

[chipj29]

First, let me reiterate that no evidence has been provided to the public indicating that any crime has taken place in reference to the discussed incident.

That said, I provide the following RSA to show that in the case we are discussing, mandatory blood testing must occur as required by State law. Consent is not optional.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Skip...guess my logic is a bit off.

But please don't think I was insinuating a criminal act occurred in this instance. That was not my intent.

[Skip]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Skip...guess my logic is a bit off.

But please don't think I was insinuating a criminal act occurred in this instance. That was not my intent.

Nope Chip, didn't think you were insinuating anything, and you raised a very good point....a belief that many folks share.

While most of us agree that rampant speculation and gossip can be harmful in a situation like this, an intelligent discussion of different points like you and others have raised provide an opportunity for each of us to educate ourselves on the issues pertinent to the incident.

[jeffk]

From a medical standpoint, the hospital would already know at this point however with the medical privacy laws it would take a court order for the investigators to access them. Coming from somewhat of a medical background I can say that they would definitely have to do a full blood screening during the initial triage and for the ongoing treatment process. If there was alcohol, illegal drugs or prescription meds in her system they would have to know immediately as it could have serious effects with other meds used during treatment,

The test results used for medical purposes are not used by law enforcement. They require their own separate samples and process it in their own lab. My guess is that this preserves the chain of evidencebecause only law enforcement approved people access the samples and removes any legal wrangling as to whether the hospital should have shared personal medical information with law enforcement. It also removes ethical problems for doctors who are supposed to treat patients vs. aiding in their prosecution.

I agree with Skip, let's agree that this is a tragedy and wait for the professionals to evaluate what happened.

My prayers for all involved and their families.

[NightWing]

:rolleye1: Estimated to be 28 mph, he estimated it.:rolleye1:

Given, but it was based on the accident reconstruction and investigation. Don't roll your eyes so much. They may stick that way. (OWT);)

[The Big Kahuna]

It might have been Erica's boat, but who says she was driving? Maybe she was letting someone else drive, that may explain a lot.

[codeman671]

The test results used for medical purposes are not used by law enforcement. They require their own separate samples and process it in their own lab. My guess is that this preserves the chain of evidencebecause only law enforcement approved people access the samples and removes any legal wrangling as to whether the hospital should have shared personal medical information with law enforcement. It also removes ethical problems for doctors who are supposed to treat patients vs. aiding in their prosecution.

I agree with Skip, let's agree that this is a tragedy and wait for the professionals to evaluate what happened.

My prayers for all involved and their families.

Somewhat true, but in the case of alcohol where the BAC drops steadily when not being "supplemented" a sample taken later is useless (thus Littlefield's flight). Try waking a judge at 3am on a Sunday morning to get authorization to get a sample. In this case it would have to come from tests done at the hospital.

My post in no may is insinuating any thoughts or speculation of alcohol being related.

[Skip]

Substantial information surrounding the crash is now being investigated, including the possibility that alcohol was involved.

Latest developments in this morning's CITIZEN. (http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080624/GJNEWS02/921566568/-1/CITIZEN")

[VtSteve]

Substantial information surrounding the crash is now being investigated, including the possibility that alcohol was involved.

Latest developments in this morning's CITIZEN. (http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080624/GJNEWS02/921566568/-1/CITIZEN")

I hope this wasn't the case, but just an unfortunate accident.

[SIKSUKR]

Substantial information surrounding the crash is now being investigated, including the possibility that alcohol was involved.

Latest developments in this morning's CITIZEN. (http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080624/GJNEWS02/921566568/-1/CITIZEN")

From my standpoint,Dunleavy is doing the right thing here.All of these items and circumstances must be investigated.It does not infere these occupants were inpaired but it does need to be confimed or not.As hard for me as it is to see implications of DWI,I believe it has to be looked at.

[AC2717]

You didn't see the numbers because - THERE WAS NO BOW REMAINING!!!

I continue to read these posts - many while shaking my head, some get my attention enough to call someone else over to read the post to make sure I am not misreading or misunderstanding.....SURELY you are kidding about the bow numbers?????

Unbelievable!!

Again, :confused:Clearly some people that read the forum do not read the whole posting when they feel someone is wrong, As I would like to draw attention to the last line of my post in big capital letters.
To continue this though: if I am not mistaken the bow letters are supposed to be above the Rub rail, hence the reason for my post. Just a mere pointing out of what i saw in the photo and that is it.

[NHDOLFAN]

Wow. This article shows that someone was drinking. Now, whether the person(s) were impaired is a different story. At what speed would a boat need to be traveling to be on plane? I'm sure that Formula could answer this question. Only time will tell but it does not look good.

[EricP]

Those several empty beer cans could have already been in the boat or from earlier in the day/evening.

[UncleRay]

Wow. This article shows that someone was drinking. Now, whether the person(s) were impaired is a different story. At what speed would a boat need to be traveling to be on plane? I'm sure that Formula could answer this question. Only time will tell but it does not look good.

According to the tests on this hull, it looks to plane off at about 19/20 mph.

http://www.boattest.com/oem/general-info.aspx?ID=1192&lp_id=381#TestResult



If you care to run the math, this will get you close:

Minimum Planing Speed in Knots:

2.3 x ((32.2 x (all up displacement in pounds)^0.333)^0.5)/1.6889

For example, an 18' boat at 2,323.2 pounds (including crew) may plane at 13.902 knots.

The formula has no input for the shape of the hull. It just calculates the speed required to lift 2300 pounds. It also does not indicate how difficult it will be to get the hull to 13.9 knots. However, in my ignorance, I believe it may be somewhat representative. If the boat was surfing down a wave at 13.9 knots, it may very well be planing.

[2Blackdogs]

Looks like Uncle Ray got "called in".

A rule of thumb is that the larger the city, hospital, emergency room, fire department or police force, the more sophisticated the attention to official inquiry. Europe, I'm reading today, has the technology to find fingerprints on anything made of metal, even if it's old or submerged. European laboratories are far better funded than US laboratories.

When an agency has only a handful of annual investigations like this one (or even fewer), it's not going to be sophisticated at all. Worse, the investigation in a tourist-dependent state is subject to fierce political and economic community pressures.

Perhaps "the showing to the door" of Safety Director Dick Flynn will change that impression, but funding to the NHMP is already such a rarity that the radar guns, the radar survey, and officer's radar training were grieved as major expenses. Or so we were told here. The survey itself was widely criticized as unscientific, and suggested a political pressure at work to make the findings "turn out right".

The presence of alcohol evidence has turned this discussion to the real intent of the NHRBA, and that is to perpetuate a party-hardy atmosphere for Winni's cowboys. We haven't heard from the primary proponent of A.I.S. lately, especially with today's potentially embarrassing link to the NHRBA. It's too late to impeach the president of NHRBA now, but it could happen.

I hope you're wrong about the driver behind the wheel. That driver might be the one who cannot speak in defense.

[chipj29]

...
The presence of alcohol evidence has turned this discussion to the real intent of the NHRBA, and that is to perpetuate a party-hardy atmosphere for Winni's cowboys. We haven't heard from the primary proponent of A.I.S. lately, especially with today's potentially embarrassing link to the NHRBA. It's too late to impeach the president of NHRBA now, but it could happen.

I hope you're wrong about the driver behind the wheel. That driver might be the one who cannot speak in defense.


Here you go again...yet one more COMPLETELY uncalled for post.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Another story:

Jun 24, 10:48 AM EDT
Alcohol may have been involved in NH boat crash

GILFORD, N.H. (AP) -- Investigators are looking into possible criminal charges in a fatal boating accident on New Hampshire's Lake Winnipesaukee last week.

In court documents, the Marine Patrol said it is investigating whether the death of 34-year-old Stephanie Beaudoin, of Meredith, was a negligent homicide.

Court affidavits say a surviving passenger, 34-year-old Nicole Shinopulos, of Burlington, Massachusetts, told investigators she and the two other women on the boat had been drinking before they crashed into Diamond Island around 2:30 a.m. on June 15.

The boat's driver, 34-year-old Erica Blizzard, of Laconia, suffered serious injuries. Blizzard is the president of the New Hampshire Recreational Boaters Association, which has opposed boating speed limits on the lake.

She is in stable condition at Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center in Lebanon.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NH_BOAT_FATAL_NHOL-?SITE=NHCOD&SECTION=STATE&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2008-06-24-10-48-28
------------------

And, as I posted earlier, the boat was going too fast for the conditions.

[Ryan]

And, as I posted earlier, the boat was going too fast for the conditions.

Please don't take this the wrong way:

How fast were they going again? I don't recall reading what the investigators determined their speed to be?

As a general comment, enough with the speculation. We need to let the investigators sort this out before anybody jumps to conclusions.

[COWISLAND NH]

Can we get some hard facts please...like the Marine patrol accident log form last year...if any one wants to point fingers at who had the most accidents and why lets see who they really were. I can not stand the finger pointing at people apposed to the speed limit. SPEED???:rolleye1:Let's try someone making a bad judgment....plain and simple folks!

[Skip]

...A rule of thumb is that the larger the city, hospital, emergency room, fire department or police force, the more sophisticated the attention to official inquiry...When an agency has only a handful of annual investigations like this one (or even fewer), it's not going to be sophisticated at all. Worse, the investigation in a tourist-dependent state is subject to fierce political and economic community pressures...

Normally I ignore deliberate attempts to troll, but I'll make an exception this time to reassure the readers that this invetigation is in safe & capable hands.

As has been noted by numerous public sources, the lead investigator is Lt. Tim Dunleavy of the NHMP. Dunleavy is a career full time law enforcement supervisor that is recognized by the New Hampshire Court system, Underwriters Labratory and the United States Coast Guard as an expert in boat accident reconstruction amongst a number of other qualifications & duties, and can and has succesfully testified to same.

He also has extensive experience in responiding to, investigating, and succesfully prosecuting numerous criminal violations of the State's boating regulations, including a fair share of the fatalities that have occured on our waters the last few decades.

Finally, numerous serious crimes occur throughout our State in various small locals on an annual basis. All Departments in this State utilize neighboring community experts, each County Attorney's Office, the State Attorney General's Office, the NH State Police, the State Police Crime Lab and a long list of private and federal agencies to assist in all levels of evidence gathering and criminal investigation and prosecution.

The root cause of this tragedy will be thoroughly investigated and the public will have timely and relevant material released at the appropriate juncture, just as today's new stories have proven.

While it takes only the ability to operate a keyboard to be a troll, rest assured that the folks in charge of this investigation are much more qualified than the naysayers at their respective craft.

Skip

[VtSteve]

Well Blackdogs, they are investigating anything and everything, as many assumed. Your constant insinuations, riddled with sarcasm and demeaning language, pretty much put you in the position of an agenda poster. Regardless of the outcome of this accident, most of us could pretty much predict what you'd write for each potential outcome.

One of the chief criticisms in the SL arguments is that many of us have read about numerous accident stories, seen the raw data, and tried to discuss solutions as we both participate in boating and care for ourselves and others. While others have distorted data, misinterpreted it, or even ignored it altogether.

In the end, all that counts is safety and reducing accidents. Something tells me that's not your number one goal here.

[flyry49]

According to the tests on this hull, it looks to plane off at about 19/20 mph.

http://www.boattest.com/oem/general-info.aspx?ID=1192&lp_id=381#TestResult



If you care to run the math, this will get you close:

Minimum Planing Speed in Knots:

2.3 x ((32.2 x (all up displacement in pounds)^0.333)^0.5)/1.6889

For example, an 18' boat at 2,323.2 pounds (including crew) may plane at 13.902 knots.

The formula has no input for the shape of the hull. It just calculates the speed required to lift 2300 pounds. It also does not indicate how difficult it will be to get the hull to 13.9 knots. However, in my ignorance, I believe it may be somewhat representative. If the boat was surfing down a wave at 13.9 knots, it may very well be planing.


i can tell you right now that this boat wont fully plane out till close to 30 mph but why don't we leave this investigation to the investigators? my thoughts and prayers are with the people involved

[Waterbaby]

Looks like Uncle Ray got "called in".

A rule of thumb is that the larger the city, hospital, emergency room, fire department or police force, the more sophisticated the attention to official inquiry. Europe, I'm reading today, has the technology to find fingerprints on anything made of metal, even if it's old or submerged. European laboratories are far better funded than US laboratories.

When an agency has only a handful of annual investigations like this one (or even fewer), it's not going to be sophisticated at all. Worse, the investigation in a tourist-dependent state is subject to fierce political and economic community pressures.

Perhaps "the showing to the door" of Safety Director Dick Flynn will change that impression, but funding to the NHMP is already such a rarity that the radar guns, the radar survey, and officer's radar training were grieved as major expenses. Or so we were told here. The survey itself was widely criticized as unscientific, and suggested a political pressure at work to make the findings "turn out right".

The presence of alcohol evidence has turned this discussion to the real intent of the NHRBA, and that is to perpetuate a party-hardy atmosphere for Winni's cowboys. We haven't heard from the primary proponent of A.I.S. lately, especially with today's potentially embarrassing link to the NHRBA. It's too late to impeach the president of NHRBA now, but it could happen.

I hope you're wrong about the driver behind the wheel. That driver might be the one who cannot speak in defense.

No matter how many times I read this, I cannot make it relevant to this thread.....................please don't elaborate, I'm not sure it will help your cause.

[Airwaves]

The AP article that RI Swamp Yankee quotes is based on this article in the Laconia Citizen. (http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080624/GJNEWS02/921566568/-1/CITNEWS)

The AP story is heavily editied and the Laconia Citizen article relies exclusively on court documents filed to get various search warrants needed for the investigation.

To restate my point the AP article was based on the Laconia Citizen Article. The Citizen article was based on the reading of court documents. I did not see anywhere in the article where anyone involved in the investigation or accident was actually interviewed for the story.

This comes back to the ongoing reduction in newspaper workforce and the regurgitation of a marginal story as fact by other news organizations and drawing conclusions from it. It's going to get worse friends.

[Newbiesaukee]

Just a question. Is it the case that the bow letters are supposed to be above the rub rail? I am not the most experienced boatman, but this does not seem to be the case. What is the deal?

[Turtle Boy]

The AP article that RI Swamp Yankee quotes is based on this article in the Laconia Citizen. (http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080624/GJNEWS02/921566568/-1/CITNEWS)



This comes back to the ongoing reduction in newspaper workforce and the regurgitation of a marginal story as fact by other news organizations and drawing conclusions from it. It's going to get worse friends.

Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal. Check out the Union Leader's article(and check out the letters...many NH citizens must view this as a state wide embarrassment).

www.theunionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Alcohol+may+have+been+involv ed+in+boat+crash&articleId=1...

think this one over a bit further Airwaves. Very sad.

[HUH]

Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal. Check out the Union Leader's article(and check out the letters...many NH citizens must view this as a state wide embarrassment).

www.theunionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Alcohol+may+have+been+involv ed+in+boat+crash&articleId=1...

think this one over a bit further Airwaves. Very sad.
I would say that its "Ironic" that she was the head of a lobbying group against a boating bill. But the Bill had nothing to do with drinking and the facts are not in as to whether speed was a factor/issue.
:rolleye2:

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Turtle Boy
Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal.
Yes, the story is marginal in its accuracy.

It was written based entirely on affidavits submitted to the courts in order to get a search warrant and not on any evidence uncovered or conclusions drawn by investigators. Just a routine justification by investigators for permission to search for evidence.

As I pointed out no one, not a single person appears to have been interviewed for the article to even question why the need for some of the items listed in the affidavit.

It appears to be an affidavit submitted by a good investigator looking for permission from the courts to tear the boat appart and not overlook anything but no reporter questioned why this or why that. It's much easier to just get the court documents and write your story based on them without doing any footwork, cheaper too!

Very very very poor reporting and it's regurgitated statewide through AP so it becomes "fact". The "Union Leader" article you provided a link to just proves my point. It is the same Laconia Citizen article under the AP title. The Union Leader did not do their own reporting on the story, just regurgitated a marginally accurate story.

It's going to get worse, and not just with this story unfortunately :(

[Rinkerfam]

I was half paying attention to WMUR's eleven o'clock broadcast when I thought I heard it stated that the NH Marine Patrol was leaning toward a negligent homicide case with regard to the incident at Diamond Island. Can anyone confirm or dismiss this?

[EricP]

Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal. Check out the Union Leader's article(and check out the letters...many NH citizens must view this as a state wide embarrassment).

www.theunionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Alcohol+may+have+been+involv ed+in+boat+crash&articleId=1...

think this one over a bit further Airwaves. Very sad.

You are exactly the person the press is appealing to. I lost respect for the press many years ago. You still buy into it and believe everything they say is gospel.

[VtSteve]

Whoa....marginal story? Outspoken proponent of "no limits needed" and head of NHRBA crashes boat at 2:30 AM, passenger says they were drinking at Wolftrap, M.P. states they were at planing speed and that beer cans found at scene? That's not marginal. Check out the Union Leader's article(and check out the letters...many NH citizens must view this as a state wide embarrassment).

www.theunionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Alcohol+may+have+been+involv ed+in+boat+crash&articleId=1...

think this one over a bit further Airwaves. Very sad.

The state wide embarrassment Could be, that once again, speed limits have nothing to do with the accident. If you bark up the wrong tree too long, your neck will be permanently strained.

[Airwaves]

Orignally posted by Rinkerfam
I was half paying attention to WMUR's eleven o'clock broadcast when I thought I heard it stated that the NH Marine Patrol was leaning toward a negligent homicide case with regard to the incident at Diamond Island. Can anyone confirm or dismiss this?
That was taken from the same Citizen/AP article that I've been talking about as not being very good reporting. In the Citizen article it says
"In support of the search warrant Dunleavy said the department is currently investigating whether a negligent homicide occurred."
So if WMUR reported that the Marine Patrol is leaning toward a negligent homicide case it is further distortion of an initally badly reported, poorly written story.

See how easy it is when you don't do your own work?