WinnFabs/Laconia Citizen Letter to the Editor

[Airwaves]

:eek:

I found this on the Laconia Citizen website! I can not believe the crap that I read and the endorsement of the Laconia Citizen Editor without the paper forcing Winnfabs to actually name a single source they "quote"!

Journalism? And they wonder why newspaper circulation is dropping!

The WinnFabs/Laconia Citizen editorial article does not limit itself to areas where there is a safe passage law already in effect since it does not say where the survey was taken or who was quoted.

So, the New Hampshire Marine Patrol research is flawed, but this "National survey" is accurate and reflects what is happening on Lake Winnipesaukee? I think not!!!

I don't see any reference to boater education, reduction in the number of boating accidents or lack of accidents involving speed. OR NEW HAMPSHIRE!

None of the WinnFabs "Quotes" are attributed to ANY law enforcement agency or organization or anyone else for that matter!

Read for yourself!

Letters to the Editor - May 14, 2008
Article Date: Wednesday, May 14, 2008
Family Alliance backs boat speed limit in N.H.

Editor, The Citizen: WinnFABS (Winnipesaukee Family Alliance for Boating Safety) went back to authorities around the country at lakes where there are speed limits—let's listen to their experience and wisdom and pass House Bill 847, the 45/25 mph boating speed limits for Lake Winnipesaukee:

Summary of WinnFABS' Followup Survey with Boating Authorities Around the U.S. at lakes where there are speed limits:

1. What are the positive effects of a speed limit? "Enables control of lake, particularly at busy times. Speed creates a potential for harm. Allows for governing the conditions of boat movement."

"Speed is an issue! Speed limits improve reaction time cutting down on accidents and injury. Boats have not changed in 40 years other than to increase power. They lack any safety equipment (like that required in cars; seat belts, airbags, padded dash, etc.) so boaters have no protection. For every fatality there are 20 injury accidents and most are head injuries which can result in drowning. Speed and recklessness are the most important factors."

"Less accidents and less shoreline erosion. There is a real need to control activity and speed to keep the public safe."

2. Are there any negative effects?"Really none, you can accomplish all of the outdoor boating recreations (other than high speed racing) at speeds less than 45 mph. Water skiing and tubing are done no faster than 25-30. That's plenty fast enough."

3. Do your officers like having a speed limit, does it contribute to their effectiveness?" Yes, the lake's reputation for strict enforcement creates a very high level of compliance by boaters."

"Speed limits come into play with an increase in congestion. Speed limits are another tool in the enforcement belt."

"A speed limit is not a single silver bullet, often it provides a reason to stop a boat and the opportunity to check for other violations."

"Yes — in the long run, it is less work as there is less negative behavior on the water and less injury accidents. Boats have no brakes, you cannot stop as you can in an automobile."

4. Do speed limits make lakes safer?"I believe they do. It would be chaos otherwise"

"Very much so, it equalizes the boating abilities among different boating populations (age, experience, size of boat). Limits create stability and equality on the water."

5. Do you get any feedback from boaters on speed limits? "No comments from boaters. Law is just accepted. Businesses appreciate the enforcement on the lake — no negative comments from any businesses, not even those servicing boats."

6. Other comments?" I think it is a moral obligation to protect people on the lake."

"I think there is a significant comparison of lakes and highways. Stopping distances are critical — speed creates an opportunity for injury and death."

"TOW USA has done a study that shows people give up boating when they see a lack of safety on the water. The boating industry is slow to accept this reaction."

"45 mph is plenty fast. More than that and the boat does not have much contact with the water."

"The boat industry is a major impediment to all boating laws and that NASBLA, being financially dependent upon the manufacturers, is not going to lead the charge for change."

"The most dangerous situations occur with the combination of fast and slow craft. Perceived reaction times and ability are so different. The only choice is to slow down the fast boats to improve safety."

It just makes good common sense to pass House Bill 847.

Sandy Helve, president

WinnFABS

[Lakegeezer]

They lied, they won. When the bill sunsets in two years, maybe there is another chance. The country was led into war by lies. We should not be surprised that fear and lies worked to bring speed limits as well. NH should change its slogan from "live free or die" to "the nanny state".

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Airwaves, they may have one a battle, but they have not yet won the war! This isn't over by a long shot.

[Bear Islander]

It's not Journalism. It's a "letter to the editor". The opposition could have sent a letter with your bullet points and I bet they would have printed that as well.

I can't find any lies or errors in it. But if it quotes people it should have included the source.

[Seaplane Pilot]

http://www.aquariussanctuary.com/biographies.html

Sandy Helve
Having been psychic and intuitive my entire life, I began to earnestly and in a disciplined manner to understand and to develop my gift further 25 years ago through courses, workshops and other avenues on both the West and the East coasts. I somehow knew that I would be helping others in assessing information that the universe sends to us. Having been doing readings for ten years, particularly studying under the tutelage of Sonia Choquette, I have no particular modality except to sit down with you in a comfortable setting, first passing along my reading then answering any specific questions that you may bring.

If it is the same person, hell she's a psychic - she already knew the speed limit would pass! Hey, wait a minute...that's not fair, that's cheating. :laugh:

[SIKSUKR]

Yup,this pretty much sums up the substance of Winnfabs case through this whole process.There are no facts to back their position so they just throw out words and inuendo with no basis and hope the public buys into it.Guess what,its working.Just plain shamefull.

[parrothead]

I still don't get how decreased shore erosion is provided as a benefit of a speed limit. Boats cause a larger wake at slower speeds. This is not a dig at whether there should be a speed limit or not, it just doesn't make sense how a speed limit would affect boat wakes. The speed limit will not have any affect on erosion, since by 45 most boats are on plane anyway and making a smaller wake. I just don't get how anyone that has ever been on a boat can say that a limit on the maximum speed will affect wake size.
If the argument is that there will be less boats, I don't think that will be true. You may lose some go fasts, but as the lake becomes "safer" won't more trailered boats come to the "safe" lake?

[Seaplane Pilot]

The enemy is not Winnfabs, the enemy are those hacks in Concord. We need to start a campaign to vote every one of these people that voted for this bill - both House and Senate, OUT OF OFFICE. Because if we don't, this is only the beginning of a very slippery slope that will continue to erode our freedoms.

[BroadHopper]

Sad day for 'undeniable rights'. In a state where motorcyclists don't wear helmets, automobile drivers and passengers over 12 do not require seat belts and liquor stores on the interstates despite tough dui laws, where is this leading too? the 'Live free or die' motto will become just that. A motto.
Soon, the landowners who own lake front properties will complain of the erosion as the large boats slow down. My family lives on the Broads and we are already seeing the effects. It will get worst.
I will continue to bare foot ski despite the fact that it is about 53 mph. No one will take my hobby away from me, my children and hopefully my grandchildren. I wiil make sure there is meaning in the motto, 'Live Free or Die'.

[VtSteve]

I still don't get how decreased shore erosion is provided as a benefit of a speed limit. Boats cause a larger wake at slower speeds. This is not a dig at whether there should be a speed limit or not, it just doesn't make sense how a speed limit would affect boat wakes. The speed limit will not have any affect on erosion, since by 45 most boats are on plane anyway and making a smaller wake. I just don't get how anyone that has ever been on a boat can say that a limit on the maximum speed will affect wake size.
If the argument is that there will be less boats, I don't think that will be true. You may lose some go fasts, but as the lake becomes "safer" won't more trailered boats come to the "safe" lake?

That was always the rub. The proponents ignored such topics as enforcement of existing laws, while provided fluff and diversions such as erosion. Like I said many times now, if everyone goes out on Saturdays for a couple of hours and goes Big Wake speed, I'm sure even the most ignorant would wake up to those comments about erosion.

The only real solution to solving any problems, perceived problems, or even just changing conditions, is to have people express their opinions. Real opinions, not BS and lies. That's where the real problems started in the speed limit debates.

1) The proponents lied so often it was hard to keep up. In the end, this law was All about discouraging the GFBL boats from coming back, and it was hoiped they'd mostly all leave.

2) The GFBL crowd refused to acknowledge that some in their ranks (small minority), were ticking off some people with their arrogant behavior. They failed to even acknowledge this, so once again, a few hurt the many

3) The boaters at large are still left with inexperienced new boaters, arrogant and thrillseeking people in bowriders and the like, and the drinks. Nobody knows exactly how the MP will enforce this speed limit, since nobody ever mentioned providing additional funds.

4) The Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllly big lie is that this law would provide a safer lake. We'll see. The NWZ obviously were not being enforced as per the many observations and rants of BI. The 150' limit as well was not enforced, as per the same stories and rants.

Too bad people cherish causes more than solutions.

[EricP]

The enemy is not Winnfabs, the enemy are those hacks in Concord. We need to start a campaign to vote every one of these people that voted for this bill - both House and Senate, OUT OF OFFICE. Because if we don't, this is only the beginning of a very slippery slope that will continue to erode our freedoms.

YES!!! I'm in.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Count me in, Now it will be an election issue!

[chipj29]

Count me in, Now it will be an election issue!

Is there a way to find out how each Senator voted?

[Bear Islander]

If it is the same person, hell she's a psychic - she already knew the speed limit would pass! Hey, wait a minute...that's not fair, that's cheating. :laugh:

If you don't know its the same person you should not have posted it. Perhaps not even then. This is nothing but a bad faith attack on an individual because you lost. It's a low blow and I thought better of you.

I ask you to remove that post.

[Chris Craft]

If you don't know its the same person you should not have posted it. Perhaps not even then. This is nothing but a bad faith attack on an individual because you lost. It's a low blow and I thought better of you.

I ask you to remove that post.

I could argue that you also lost, you just don't know it yet. IMO no one is going to win in this. Just more laws and less freedoms, more expenses and the growing of Gov. for the people of NH :( Some day some one is going to come up with a law that you don't like and you will no longer be able to do something that you love. All for what? :confused::confused:

[SIKSUKR]

If you don't know its the same person you should not have posted it. Perhaps not even then. This is nothing but a bad faith attack on an individual because you lost. It's a low blow and I thought better of you.

I ask you to remove that post.

I think we need to lighten up here a little bit.SP's post was made with tongue in cheek and never said it was the same person.See the smiley at the end of the post?

[Resident 2B]

http://www.aquariussanctuary.com/biographies.html

I see they have removed the Bio for a psychic who happens to be named Sandy Helve from their Bio list sometime today, since the post this morning.

I would have thought a good psychic could have seen this coming. :look: :)

For the record, I think psychics are great people!

R2B

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

http://www.aquariussanctuary.com/biographies.html

I see they have removed the Bio for a psychic who happens to be named Sandy Helve from their Bio list sometime today, since the post this morning.

I would have thought a good psychic could have seen this coming. :look: :)

For the record, I think psychics are great people!

R2B

Here is a link to Aquarius Sanctuary archived Bio Page (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:VHjGhLfAZbUJ:www.aquariussanctuary. com/biographies.html+Sandy+Helve&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us) I'm not sure of the lifespan of that archive but it has the bio. Scroll down to Sandy Helve on the Bio page. I have no idea if this is the same person that is mentioned above as President of WinnFabs and I am not drawing any conclusions. More than one person can have the same name.

I would guess that this Sandy Helve's Bio was removed because she is no longer associated with that organization - find their current home page HERE (http://www.aquariussanctuary.com/index.html) if you are interested. I don't know if the bio page update was coincidence or a result of R2B's post.

Ask me sometime about the psychics that would come on the radio talk shows to display their abilities. Not all psychics are created equal. Just ask Miss Cleo :laugh:

[Skip]

You know Skipper, it ain't a bad gig if you can get it.

According to the recently revamped website, the woman in question was getting $200 an hour for "psychic & intuitive readings"....no refunds allowed!

Hey, FLL needs to get in on this gig....its an allowable in-home business and in just one 40 hour work-week Ol' Less could bag enough cash to pay an entire year's worth of Meredith property tax...plus score himself a fistful of lucky mega-bucks tickets! :laugh:

[fatlazyless]

Thanks Skip, what an excellent suggestion.....will have to email a 19.95 check for the introductory lesson.

While psychic energy has been powering sailboats, kayaks, canoes and rowboats for centuries....I suddenly have developed a "NEED FOR SPEED" and first thing tomorrow morning will be paying a visit to the nearby BAJA dealer at the Weirs. Will be look'n for a good deal on a new Baja 27' Outlaw! Like, how is the local Fountain, Baja, Formula & Donzi market doing?

Maybe I can trade my 20 year old, 12', $1750 sailboat in for a 27' Baja with a single 454 when I tell the sales guy that it runs on psychic energy. What the heck.....with a 45mph limit, a 27' hull and a 454hp will never-ever be getting above aproximately 3000revs....boohoo!

Will include in my trade-in offer.....a brand new box a granola!:D Wish me some good trade-in luck, you all.:)

[Seaplane Pilot]

If you don't know its the same person you should not have posted it. Perhaps not even then. This is nothing but a bad faith attack on an individual because you lost. It's a low blow and I thought better of you.

I ask you to remove that post.

BI, Have you completely lost it? You call this an attack? A low blow? You people really have too much time on your hands. Just because of this crazy post of yours, I will not remove mine. It was a lighthearted attempt at humor after your victory - there was no attack, express or implied. Clearly I qualified it by saying "If this is the same person". Grow up and get off your soapbox - I thought better of you. :fire:

[Gilligan]

Reading the letter from the president of WinnFABS makes me think that the FABS part stands for FABrication.:confused:

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Bear Islander:
It's not Journalism. It's a "letter to the editor". The opposition could have sent a letter with your bullet points and I bet they would have printed that as well.
I can't find any lies or errors in it. But if it quotes people it should have included the source.

Actually the following comment by the editor makes it journalism since the editor is selling the comments as fact.
Editor, The Citizen: WinnFABS (Winnipesaukee Family Alliance for Boating Safety) went back to authorities around the country at lakes where there are speed limits—let's listen to their experience and wisdom and pass House Bill 847, the 45/25 mph boating speed limits for Lake Winnipesaukee:
Now the editor certainly has every right in the world to publish, but a list of unattributed quotes presented as fact is unacceptable and raises questions about the ethics and realiability of the publication.
I don't know who, if anyone, actually uttered those words and under what context. And in that context I don't know how you can write that you can find no lies or errors when you don't know who issued the quotes, or even if perhaps they were written around the table one night at a Winnfabs meeting!

The one quote that was attributed seems to be from a fictitious firm. A google of "Tow USA" shows military pics, a hobby site, aircraft tow bars, apparel, weather forecasts, on line music, scale pilots, a 'speed racer' ad and fly cheap to thialand...that was on page one of google under "tow usa"!

All that calls into question the factual authenticity of that "letter to the editor" that contained such experience and wisdom!

[Bear Islander]

Actually the following comment by the editor makes it journalism since the editor is selling the comments as fact.

Now the editor certainly has every right in the world to publish, but a list of unattributed quotes presented as fact is unacceptable and raises questions about the ethics and realiability of the publication.
I don't know who, if anyone, actually uttered those words and under what context. And in that context I don't know how you can write that you can find no lies or errors when you don't know who issued the quotes, or even if perhaps they were written around the table one night at a Winnfabs meeting!

The one quote that was attributed seems to be from a fictitious firm. A google of "Tow USA" shows military pics, a hobby site, aircraft tow bars, apparel, weather forecasts, on line music, scale pilots, a 'speed racer' ad and fly cheap to thialand...that was on page one of google under "tow usa"!

All that calls into question the factual authenticity of that "letter to the editor" that contained such experience and wisdom!

I think you are wrong about that. The editor did not write any part of that letter, or comment on it. Where is says "Editor, The Citizen:" that is the salutation. It shows that the letter was addressed to the Citizen. If you take a look you will find every letter to the editor starts that way. Everything after the colon was written by Sandy.

[tis]

What did I miss? I have been away for a couple of days. I thought the governor was going to veto it. Why did he change his mind, does anyone know?

[Islander]

What did I miss? I have been away for a couple of days. I thought the governor was going to veto it. Why did he change his mind, does anyone know?

The Governor never said he would veto it. In fact he has said he will sign it.

[EricP]

The Governor never said he would veto it. In fact he has said he will sign it.

When did he say that? I have a letter here from the Govenor that pretty much shows he is neutral at the time it was sent to me, maybe 2 months ago, and I've seen nothing official that says he'll sign it, just speculation. I'll have to find the letter, but essentially he was waiting and weighing facts.

[chipj29]

The Governor never said he would veto it. In fact he has said he will sign it.

In an Article in the paper a couple months ago, he said he didn't know if he would sign it.

[hazelnut]

In an Article in the paper a couple months ago, he said he didn't know if he would sign it.

:D I can't help but think and compare this conversation to an inmate waiting on death row for the Governor to call. :D It's like we're all sitting in the electric chair saying "I know he's gonna call, man just wait a few more minutes." :laugh:

My guess is that he signs it. I wish that weren't the case but I'm guessing he will. :(

[Islander]

In an Article in the paper a couple months ago, he said he didn't know if he would sign it.

He may have been on the fence two months ago, but in a nationally distributed Associated Press article last Friday, he said he would sign it.

But the reason I posted was to say that he never claimed he would veto it. That was wishfull thinking on the part of the opponents. Why don't we wait and see what he really does.

[chipj29]

He may have been on the fence two months ago, but in a nationally distributed Associated Press article last Friday, he said he would sign it.

But the reason I posted was to say that he never claimed he would veto it. That was wishfull thinking on the part of the opponents. Why don't we wait and see what he really does.
And the point of my post was that up until recently, he has not said he would or wouldn't sign it.
Maybe the wishful thinking was on your end? Meh, either way, he will do whatever he may think is right. My opinion does not matter anymore.

[Airwaves]

Bear Islander I respectfully disagree. The following was written by the editor as a way to show endorsement and give the list of unattributed quotes credibility.
WinnFABS (Winnipesaukee Family Alliance for Boating Safety) went back to authorities around the country at lakes where there are speed limits—let's listen to their experience and wisdom and pass House Bill 847, the 45/25 mph boating speed limits for Lake Winnipesaukee:
As I said there is no way of knowing where these quotes came from, whether they were actual quotes or just something that "sounded good" tossed around the table at a Winnfabs meeting.

[Skip]

...Bear Islander I respectfully disagree. The following was written by the editor as a way to show endorsement and give the list of unattributed quotes credibility...

Actually Bear Islander is correct, the opening lines that appear to be an endorsement by the Editor are actually Ms. Helve's opening paragraph.

If you check this LINK (http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080515/OPINION02/154741159) to the same letter submitted by Ms. Helve to the Nashua Telegraph during the same time frame you find the exact same opening verbiage.

By the way, the Telegraph is in no way connected with the Foster family owned Foster's/Citizen paper chain.

I wholeheartedly agree with your concern that the quotes contained within the letter are not attributable to any credible source. But so it goes when you are adept at employing large doses of hyperbole to get your point across.

Remember, it is called the "opinion page" for a very good reason...as many contributions are heavy on opinion but not necessarily backed by fact....;)

[tis]

Well, since he is a dem. it doesn't surprise me he will sign it. But I was hoping he would use some common sense and not sign it. I am very disappointed in the republican senators that signed it. Why can't they think for themselves? I guess my contact with my senator ( a republican) didn't do any good as he voted for it. What happened to republicans for less government, less taxes??? rinos.

[Airwaves]

Bear Islander I was giving some thought to your post that the following:
WinnFABS (Winnipesaukee Family Alliance for Boating Safety) went back to authorities around the country at lakes where there are speed limits—let's listen to their experience and wisdom and pass House Bill 847, the 45/25 mph boating speed limits for Lake Winnipesaukee:
was not written by the Citizen and if what you and now Skip wrote is true then the Citizen's Editorial staff really needs to take a refesher course in journalism.

Yes Skip, I know how op-ed pages work and that they are opinion, but at least in my neck of the woods if someone is writing an opinion piece containing quotes and they expect to get it published then they must attribute those quotes. In this case the entire piece was a list of unattributed quotes.

Very poor journalistic and ethical standards IMHO

[Gilligan]

The timing of the publishing of the WinnFABS letter is not coincidence. Too late for a rebuttal.

Who are the authorities? Are these alleged quotes actually a synopsis of the responses they claim they received? Is that why they don't attribute the quotes to anyone? Did they make up these quotes as representative of those they received?

Now think a moment. If you wanted to make a point to non-boating voters what would you do?

If you were to go back to authorities (whoever they are) at lakes with speed limits, would you go back to those people who were opposed to your position or would you only contact those who agreed with you in your first contact with them? This could mean that their follow up contacts were with pre-screened alleged authorities they re-contacted for this "survey". Why re-contact those who were opposed to your position during your initial contact with them? Many of us are authorities on boating on Lake Winnipesaukee, is that the kind of authority WinnFABS cite?

Maybe a large mailing to Gov. Lynch with a copy of the WinnFBS letter and a brief note above it pointing to the questionable content would help. Who made the quotes, what is the other side of the debate? No comments from boaters they say? Of course no mention that those lakes with absolute speed limits do not have the NH 150 foot rule. Whiz by close to other boats while on plane on those lakes.

It just might have him think more about his veto power. Even 10 letters could make a difference. The more letters the more influence. He is a politician and should be able to recognize propaganda when it is pointed out to him. If you want to do something, do it. ASAP.