Hb925

[PaulS]

This bill proposes to doubling the real estate taxes on 2nd homes. This would be disasterous.

1 Property Taxes. Amend RSA 72:6 to read as follows:

72:6 Real Estate.

I. All real estate, whether improved or unimproved, shall be taxed except as otherwise provided. Any real estate which is not primary residential real estate, as defined in paragraph II of this section, and is otherwise subject to taxation under this chapter shall be taxed by the town or city at a rate twice that of primary residential real estate.

II. In this section, “residential real estate” means the real estate which the taxpayer occupies as his or her principal place of abode together with any land or buildings appurtenant thereto and shall include manufactured housing if used for said purpose.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2007/HB0925.html

[jeffk]

This would also hit businesses for double property taxes. It also contains provisions for business payroll taxes and increasing and expanding other existing taxes. I guess this is a sign of the "new philosophy" in Concord. What a mess. :(

[Island Lover]

If I read it right this would also double the taxes on all commercial property.

It doesn't double the tax on second homes, it doubles the tax on all real estate that is NOT a primary residence.

For a couple of years now I have been considering declaring myself a Meredith NH resident. Getting a NH license and voting here. If this were to pass it would be an easy decision.

[secondcurve]

This would certainly start a real estate recession in NH.

[Skip]

If I read it right...It doesn't double the tax on second homes, it doubles the tax on all real estate that is NOT a primary residence....

The bill has been retained in committee. And the bill, if passed as proposed, would indeed double the tax on second homes. You can own as many homes as you want in New Hampshire but only one home can be designated as the property owner's/tax payer's primary residence.

Island Lover, you need to carefully re-read the definition provided in paragraph II. ;)

[TomC]

...but after the Real Estate values tank, tourism declines, and businesses relocate - the tax revenues would probably stabilize right about at the same level they are currently.... Somebody who understands the interdependency of the whole economic model has to simulate the effects of this "solution" because if the Author of HB925 thinks that the answer is to take all tax receipts from "non-resident" properties and multiply by 2 - he is sorely mistaken...

[Onshore]

Skip -

I trust many here are not familiar with the legislative process in NH. Perhaps you could explain what it means when a bill is "retained". It might be a relief to some people. Thanks

[Skip]

Skip -

I trust many here are not familiar with the legislative process in NH. Perhaps you could explain what it means when a bill is "retained". It might be a relief to some people. Thanks

Sure....

It means it never made it out of House Ways & Means this legislative session and thus will not come to the full house for a vote this year. It can still come out of committee next year for action in the second year of this current legislative body. This gives folks plenty of time to contact members of the committee or their own respective representative to express their opinions on this particular piece of legislation. But their will be no action this year....

[fatlazyless]

Hey Island Lover, becoming a resident in Meredith is not so easy. If your case has any doubt you have to appear before the select board and they basically have a hearing. If they are not familar with you by face, or by relative, or by employment, then they ask questions like: does your house have year-round heat and water and where do you work?

No surprise that in Massachusetts which has an income tax, one can become a resident in 30 seconds, while in New Hampshire it can take three years of re-hearings. In Mass, it is determined at the state level, and in New Hampshire it is determined at the town level.

[LIforrelaxin]

Well this is what I saw comming..... NH needs money, and they are going to get it come hell or high water..... Now maybe NH residents might want to start reconsidering things like sales tax.... No the property taxes will not go down, but it might stop them from going up....

The NH dream is going to die one way or another.... unless the NH residents wake up and realize that Taxes are going to happen.... the deal is you can make it so expensive to have a second home in NH in which case people will look new vacation spots (and they will)..... or you can slide a small sales tax in that will go almost unnoticed.

Bottom line property taxes will not go down from current levels, however they can be held at bay by revamping the tax system.... State spending is not going to go down, and the state needs money....

[SAMIAM]

LI....I'm a native....and I agree with you.It's very simple,we elected democrats and they can't wait to install bigger ,more intrusive government and more taxes..I think a sales tax is the only fair way go.Tourism is the engine runs the lakes region and they want to tax and regulate it,thinking that they won't annoy residents as long as the "other guy" is paying.

[SIKSUKR]

OK FLL,is this the Democratic advantage that you so exhaustingly speak of when trashing the "Republican Advantage"?If this DEMOCRATIC majority gets it's way,I think we'll all have to buy lottery tickets now and get lucky to be able to afford a second home and have our small businesses survive.I certainly saw it coming.I don't know why others can't.Ah yes,I now live in New Hampshirechussetts.Wonderfull.

[fatlazyless]

Along the same lines as the double-tax on second homes and commercial property, I propose a quadrouple sales tax on foreign luxury cars that cost above 40k, with an extra 10% hi-status penalty tax for BMW. Mercedes, Lexus & Range Rover.

If it is not sold and serviced by Meredith Ford, Lovering Volvo or Meredith Harley Davidson then it's got to be be quadrouple sales-taxed, big-time! It's time to wheel those toll stations up and out of the woods and protect our Meredith borders!

Big surprise coming, the now under-construction State round-a-bout at the intersection of the Parade Rd and Daniel Webster Hghwy, up at the top of the hill, will include a 75 cents toll gate with the net to be split between the state and town.......yes! Let's bring back those Old Man of the Mountain 1/2 price tokens!

What has happened to this state? Since 2003, we have lost the Old Man, lost the half-price tokens, viewed the assessed property values and property taxes go thru the leaky roof, and replaced almost every right-wing, whacky, concealed hand gun carrying, republican with a do-gooder, over-protective, kindergarten supportn' democrat! Is this something like the infamous Egyptian curse of Pharoah Tooten-Hooten-Fanooten and reincarnated in Live Free or Die, New Hampshire style as the curse of the Old Man of the Mountain, ayuh?

[phoenix]

i would also become a resident if this were to pass. what is most troubling is second home owners already pay for services that they don't use like schools and i am ok with that but doubling makes no sense at all and yes would cause real estate prices to drop on the lake.

[Weirs guy]

Two words;

Tax Cap.

Every year my employer gives me a certain percentage increase in my pay based on the cost of living increase from the year before. If that increase isn't enough to pay for the new truck, boat, car, snowmobile, maid, ect. I want, tough.

First off we'd need to make sure that the current taxes are acceptable to pay for what the state needs, but once thats done it seems only fair that the state should have the same kind of limits in place.

[Island Lover]

Hey Island Lover, becoming a resident in Meredith is not so easy. If your case has any doubt you have to appear before the select board and they basically have a hearing. If they are not familar with you by face, or by relative, or by employment, then they ask questions like: does your house have year-round heat and water and where do you work?

No surprise that in Massachusetts which has an income tax, one can become a resident in 30 seconds, while in New Hampshire it can take three years of re-hearings. In Mass, it is determined at the state level, and in New Hampshire it is determined at the town level.

I don't know where you are getting your information but it is not so. There are state and federal laws that govern voter registration. The only requirement that could be in question is if I am a resident. There are no time limits for instance, you can move in today and be a voting resident right away.

The question could arise as to if I sleep more nights in Meredith than anywhere else. But that is no problem.

I have already spoken to the Meredith Town Clerk about this. She was skeptical when I said Bear Island, but after we talked it through she saw no problem.

There is no law against moving from MA to NH? Or that says a NH resident can't have a second home in MA.

[John A. Birdsall]

State having limits? on spending or on receiving? Limits like telling the wife she has a limit on spending at yard sales or chocolate factories? Like limits on beer consumption. That will never happen. Every spending bill gets brought for passage has garbage bills added to it.

I do agree that somehow or other all forms of government need to have spending caps. getting a ten dollar allowance does not allow you to spend 10.01

[Mee-n-Mac]

This line says it all;

X. Dedicates revenues from the taxes established in this bill to the education trust fund.

So the NH way is to tax 2'nd home owners, most likely out of state people, to fund the school system that the out of staters don't even use. Yup, sounds fair to me.





Ooops, almost forgot

[/sarcasm]

[ITD]

Welcome to Democrat nirvana, this bill would start the hackarama, but would by no means be close to enough to keep it going, you know what that means don't you???:eek:

[Parker Island Fun]

its easy to become a NH resident the selectman are not involved at all.

but you should know that the tax man now liveth in Concord. hope you all who could vote enjoy what your crazy protests has wrought.:eek:

[BlackCatIslander]

I presume that a bill filled must have a representative as a sponsor. Who is the rep and where does he/she come from?

[AC2717]

Hi i am new to the forum as a poster, for 6 months or so now I have just been reading to get information, but i had to join today. I just bought a place on the lake on Paugus Bay:) of which I am really excited, although because it is in Laconia, I am paying $2,300 in taxes on a 400sqft bldg in a cottage condo association. At that time I wa snt complianing about the taxes. But to double it up, knowing this would be at least two years away I would be forced to sell because who would be bale to afford $383 a month in taxes on top of a mortgage, WOW! I have no problem paying for taxes the way they are now for services I cannot use, but i gaurentee you this tyope of increase would flood the market with property for sale it would criple the real estate and then even more because they would not be getting their pound of flesh from the out of state'ers they will start in on the residents for more taxes. THere is nothing wrong with a sales tax, works fine every other state. I live in RI and I pay a 7% sales tax and people do not complain about that. I some of us might need the local residents to start phoning their representatives and start voicing their opinions. I am scared I do not want to give my 2nd seasonal home that I pay year round taxes on!

I have already shown a couple of other owners in the area this bill and they said the miute that passes they will consider trying to sell, but who would buy at those tax rates! no matter what the cost of the property is

[AC2717]

I presume that a bill filled must have a representative as a sponsor. Who is the rep and where does he/she come from?

it is on the top of the bill

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Here's a link to the bill http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2007/HB0925.html

No doubt there will be some serious lobbying against this. Talk about killing the goose that laid the golden egg :rolleye2:

Take a look at the luxury tax on purchases over $10K (can you say boat), vehicles over $30K and last but not least, "changes the method of calculating the beer tax to a method based on price rather than volume"

Say goodbye to economic growth

[jetskier]

I don't know where you are getting your information but it is not so. There are state and federal laws that govern voter registration. The only requirement that could be in question is if I am a resident. There are no time limits for instance, you can move in today and be a voting resident right away.

The question could arise as to if I sleep more nights in Meredith than anywhere else. But that is no problem.

I have already spoken to the Meredith Town Clerk about this. She was skeptical when I said Bear Island, but after we talked it through she saw no problem.

There is no law against moving from MA to NH? Or that says a NH resident can't have a second home in MA.

It is a major endeavor to shift residency. I am fairly sure that you must spend a higher percentage of time in the New Hampshire residence to qualify that as a primary residence. In addition, there are tax, voting, education and estate issues etc...not simple.

The bottom line is that the tax rates are already very high. Most people are paying on the order of $5k to $20k of real estate taxes. If this is doubled, then it will make owning lake property untenable for most out of state owners. This will flood these properties onto the market and reduce the economic benefits of out of state tourism. I believe that if you do an economic model, the tax revenues will likely go down and this will cause huge issues for the local economy and business. Personally, I pay property taxes and registration fees for the boat, snowmobile etc... In addition, quite a bit of my disposible income is spent in New Hampshire.

My sense is that it is unwise to risk a principal industry by unduly burdening it with taxes.

Just my 2 cents.

Jetskier:cool:

[RLW]

I have already shown a couple of other owners in the area this bill and they said the miute that passes they will consider trying to sell, but who would buy at those tax rates! no matter what the cost of the property is
I believe if one thinks this way and would put property up for sale if this is pasted, they had better start now and beat the rush just in case. There is always someone wanting to buy nice property and will pay the taxes. My question is and maybe has been asked and answered and I missed it. I thought the town did the taxing of all properties in the towns, not the state?? :)

[Skip]

I believe if one thinks this way and would put property up for sale if this is pasted, they had better start now and beat the rush just in case. There is always someone wanting to buy nice property and will pay the taxes. My question is and maybe has been asked and answered and I missed it. I thought the town did the taxing of all properties in the towns, not the state?? :)

The Town does the taxing but the enabling State legislation is found under RSA 72:6, which this bill intends to modify. All Cities & Towns operate under the umbrella of the State, contrary to popular belief NH is not a home rule State.

The additional revenue this scheme would generate would be earmarked for the Educational Trust Fund.

[Dave R]

EVERY sponsor of this bill:

Rep. Hamm, Merr 4;
Rep. Wells, Rock 8;
Rep. Gould, Rock 5;
Rep. K. Shaw, Hills 26;
Rep. Mulholland, Graf 10

Voted to pass HB162 last year.

I suppose doubling the taxes on most of the lakefront homes will get rid of quite a few boats and make speed limit supporters happy. That said, the folks that can afford half a million bucks on the targeted boats, surely can afford a few grand more in property taxes.

I would never support such a bill, but on the bright side, my kids could really benefit from the extra school funding and perhaps prices will drop enough for me to get a bargain price on a nice, year round, lakefront place to retire in in a few years.

[BlackCatIslander]

I am sure that this bill will never go very far through the legislative process. However, what might be worrisome is something like tax classification in Massachusetts whereby residential tax rates are set at one number and industrial tax rates are set at a multiplier, such as 1.35 times the residential tax rate. In effect that is what this bill is trying to do. I am not an attorney but I am sure that discriminating against second home owners could be overturned in the courts. Another way of classification would be to zone all waterfront as a single class and apply a multiplier to the taxes.

Lets hope that some sanity will prevail.

[tis]

They do something similar in Florida. If you are a resident (homesteader), your taxes are capped at 3% per year. If you are not, the sky is the limit. An Alabama couple is challenging it right now. It will be interesting to see what happens.

[ITD]

I love that term.

From Wikipedia:

Citizens Against Government Waste

Citizens Against Government Waste (CAGW) considers 'earmark' to be an ambiguous and neutral term, and prefer to define 'pork' as "a line-item in an appropriations bill that designates tax dollars for a specific purpose in circumvention of established budgetary procedures". In their 2006 edition of the Congressional Pig Book, the group identified nearly 10,000 projects that met at least one of their seven conditions:

<DL><DD>"Not specifically authorized; Not competitively awarded; Not requested by the President; Greatly exceeds the President’s budget request or the previous year’s funding; Not the subject of congressional hearings; or Serves only a local or special interest." </DD></DL>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earmarking

Essentially, this money is "earmarked" for the "education trust", but in reality will be used for every hack use in the book. Hold on to your wallets New Hampshire, the new government has taken over and they need money, YOUR MONEY, and unfortunately mine too.

[The Big Kahuna]

What people like myself that own a property in NH and a second at the lake?

[NonVoting Taxpayer]

I'll just form a Church or a school and not pay any taxes on my property if that's the way New Hampshire wants to be. Easier to do than you might think.

[fatlazyless]

Maybe, having non-primary home owners taxed double on their property taxes could make for some good changes. It's tough to predict but maybe it would lower property values and encourage ownership by real live-in locals as opposed to people from away. In my neighborhood, about six out of eight homes are unoccupied from September to June. There are almost no people what-so-ever. There are no children what-so-ever as far as I know and the yellow school bus just does not need to travel down here. Local ownership by real residents would no doubt include school age kids. I mean, a big reason why people live in Meredith is because of its' schools. So, double taxation could over time make a change in the local home ownership demographic.

I suppose if someone were to live year round out on Bear Island with school age kid(s) the town could be obligated to provide transportation, but maybe not? Getting back and forth to Bear Island can be very problematic right now.

[phoenix]

and where are the jobs that can attract all these new home owners that will live there full time and afford to live on the lake?

[fatlazyless]

Where are the jobs......a very good question. For some, the jobs are working for the local towns: Meredith, Centre Harbor, and Laconia as teachers, police, and other municipal employees. The local municipalities are most definately at the top of the list for wages, benefits and pensions. If second homes were double-taxed, the town employees who are the recipients on the spend side of the property tax could start to move on up to the shoreline district.

...and why not? Did you see the very long list of wages and benefits paid by the Gilford schools.

[ITD]

Let's see, 6 out of 8 essentially unoccupied houses paying a full property tax burden and the state still need to raise taxes. So how is it, when those essentially unoccupied houses each have a family with 2.5 kids requiring more services and more schools, how is that going to make things less expensive? Really need to think these things out, careful what you wish for you might end up chasing your wish off your lawn day in and day out.

[jetskier]

The monies that come in from out of state owners fund local programs. Out of state owners put little or no burden on the infrastructure. In addition, they foster the local industries including the restaurants, marinas, etc... The trickle down from an out of state exodus will affect revenues of local business and the reduction in real estate values will affect tax revenue. All in all, a terrible scenario. Frankly, the industry and financial opportunites of Massachusetts are much better than New Hampshire. But, New Hampshire is the beneficiary of that with out of state spending.

Jetskier:cool:

[ApS]

]"...Maybe, having non-primary home owners taxed double on their property taxes could make for some good changes..."[/B]
Or not:

"...From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs...."
—Karl Marx, 1875 (http://tinyurl.com/wvrqw)
"...We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good...."
—Senator Hillary Clinton (http://www.hillaryforpresident-2008.com/), 2004

While a prolonged downturn would definitely occur among preowned lakefront McMansions, it's the older second homes that will be snatched-up and replaced by new custom McMansions with a bigger tax "contribution".

Overall, assessments will drop, but HB925 is the family-camp endangerment bill.

[AC2717]

I might not of got off on the right foot with my views and may not understand fully hte benifits that MIGHT arise out of this one but, one thing I know is for sure. Just because people work their butts off and scrape some scratch together to buy a place on the lake, or on the mountains or close to either two, whether from NH or not, does not mean they should be penalized for it! i guess it might just be another attack on middle class blue collar and white colors alike. One thing that makes me skeptical about this one is we would have to think that some of the congressmen and women have boats over the value of $10k and have vehicles over the value of $30K, by the way the average cost of an auto now a days is up over $25k for a fact.
This just does nto make any sense no matter how you try to justify it, YOu are right in the fact that multiple homes and bldg are vacant for the off season but think of all that tax money pumped into the state and the smaller amount of people that benefit from it, take the out of staes away and now No one but NH residents are going to pay these heavy tax burdens, that would not work in any state and would criple that particular state's economy.
there is a thing called "tourism" for a reason:look:

[Island Lover]

The bill has been retained in committee. And the bill, if passed as proposed, would indeed double the tax on second homes. You can own as many homes as you want in New Hampshire but only one home can be designated as the property owner's/tax payer's primary residence.

Island Lover, you need to carefully re-read the definition provided in paragraph II. ;)

Skip

I have re-read it carefully but it still looks like all real estate EXCEPT Primary Residential will have its tax doubled. Paragraph II is the definition of what is to be excepted.

Unless there is something not posted that changes the meaning, then I don't understand.

[NonVoting Taxpayer]

If this bill passes the residents or Primary home Owners had better watch out for their wallets.
Developers or Real Estate Companies will be able to buy all this property dirt cheap and than rent them out to families who will put more kids in your schools, more trash in your dumps and basically more stress on your infrastructure. This will cause each city or town's budget to increase and the burden will be shared not only by non-residents, but the residents looking to get out of funding their own schools. What do you think will happen to resident taxes if a town's tax levy increased by lets say 50%. Guarantee residents will pay more tomorrow than they are paying today even with the shifting of the tax burden.
All of this is probably a mute point because the economy in New Hampshire would tank so bad for a couple years because all of these cheap homes will now be occupied by residents with lets say three kids and the taxes will increase so much the residents won't be able to pay their taxes, therefor, the towns wont be collecting the taxes, they will be chasing them through for closures.
Now the big problem is where will all these new famalies work? Good thing they just raised the minimum wage in New Hampshire because you all will be making the $7.50 per hour by the time this all pans out should it pass.
This should be called the "How to Kill the Economy" bill, should it pass. I will say the Politicians in New Hampshire seem to be getting very creative lately. It makes for a good laugh reading about what they are doing.
New Hampshire, smile because the rest of the country is starting to laugh at you not with you.

[vrrooom]

As some of you know, the american revolution was fought over taxes under the cry "No taxation without representation". I would encourage every property owner to claim NH as their residence at least arround town meeting/voting time, and help the towns and state get a grip on spending.

I have abodes in several states, and keep records to prove that I spend over 180 nights in NH. We sure dont want to meet the tax man in NJ or any other states with Income Taxes which were institued to reduce property taxes (Did not happen by the way).

I have a suggestion for the Concord Tax man, this is patterned after FL, and is called the Homestead Exemption. A residents appraised property value is reduced by some large dollar amnount, shifting the tax burden to non residents and commercial properties. This Homestead Exemption has stood the test of time ,courts and would be a way for the 'crats to shift more of the tax burden to non residents. :coolsm:

[Skip]

Skip

I have re-read it carefully but it still looks like all real estate EXCEPT Primary Residential will have its tax doubled. Paragraph II is the definition of what is to be excepted.

Unless there is something not posted that changes the meaning, then I don't understand.

It is easy to get confused by this bill, a fact I think the sponsors are hoping for!

You need to realize that there is a significant difference between property that is used as a primary residence, and the primary residence of the owner of record (the taxpayer). This bill addresses and exempts the primary residence of the taxpayer, and doubles the taxes on resdiential properties that same taxpayer owns that is not his primary residence.

Example: I own a house in Nashua that I claim as my primary residence. This bill does nothing to change the tax status of my house in Nashua. Also I am the owner of record (and taxpayer) of a second home located on Lake Winnipesaukee. Since I am the taxpayer on this second property but it is not my primary residence (I can only claim one primary residence) then under this bill the property taxes for this second home will be doubled, with the additional funding going to the Educational Fund.

The exclusion in paragraph II is not for "primary residences" but only for the primary residence of the taxpayer.

The example also applies to out of State residents that have a primary residence in another State but a second home here in New Hampshire. They would be taxed double on their second home here in New Hampshire.

And for the record I believe this bill is just plain stupid! Thank God the Ways & Means Committee has buried it for this year, giving everyone plenty of time to let the Committee and their local legislators know what a crazy proposal this is!

[Bear Islander]

The way I read this it includes commercial property. It also includes rental property.

All real estate pays double unless the "taxpayer occupies as his or her principal place of abode"

Why do people think its hard to become a New Hampshire resident? Its not like joining a country club, you don't need the selectmens approval. Just move in.

[Island Lover]

Moving in sounds OK to me. If I am a NH resident I can stop paying MA income tax, and if this passes pay less real estate tax.

But the real money savings will be when I take out a fishing license!

[jetskier]

As some of you know, the american revolution was fought over taxes under the cry "No taxation without representation". I would encourage every property owner to claim NH as their residence at least arround town meeting/voting time, and help the towns and state get a grip on spending.

I have abodes in several states, and keep records to prove that I spend over 180 nights in NH. We sure dont want to meet the tax man in NJ or any other states with Income Taxes which were institued to reduce property taxes (Did not happen by the way).

I have a suggestion for the Concord Tax man, this is patterned after FL, and is called the Homestead Exemption. A residents appraised property value is reduced by some large dollar amnount, shifting the tax burden to non residents and commercial properties. This Homestead Exemption has stood the test of time ,courts and would be a way for the 'crats to shift more of the tax burden to non residents. :coolsm:

You are absolutely right. I have properties in Florida and they allow residents to claim a homestead excemption that is a fixed decrease on the value of the assessment. It should be noted that there are some interesting differences and similarities to this bill:

First, many out of state owners (such as myself) own the property for rental. You can not claim the primary residence homestead excemption, but the costs are passed off to the renters as prevailing increases in the rental rates. Renters in New Hampshire will see the same increase in rent if this bill ultimately passes.

Second, areas that have attracted the second property buyer (ex: Miami Beach) are suffering a massive real estate downturn and the local economy is suffering. In this case, it was associated more with speculative builiding.

I would maintain that New Hampshire already gets a dispropotionate amount of tax revenue from Winnipesaukee property owners. Assessments have gone through the roof over the years and most properties are assessed at full market value at the market peak. As I said before, this will certainly kill the golden goose. While we can not vote the politicians out of office directly, the economic fallout will likely be enough for the locals to do so.

My 2 cents

Jetskier:cool:

[KonaChick]

I'm wondering if this bill (god forbid) does pass..and second homeowners decide to make the lake their primary residence, won't that overwhelm the local infrastructure of the towns surrounding the lake? Crowded schools, roads, overwhelmed police and fire depts., etc? I mean there is the potential there for the populate to double in some of these "summer" towns. Just a thought....

[Weirs guy]

First, many out of state owners (such as myself) own the property for rental. You can not claim the primary residence homestead excemption, but the costs are passed off to the renters as prevailing increases in the rental rates. Renters in New Hampshire will see the same increase in rent if this bill ultimately passes.

Thats an interesting point jetskier made. What about the guy with 2 kids who works at wal-mart and rents part of a duplex from someone. Since that duplex isn't the owners primary residence, he gets wacked with the double tax bill and passes it on to the renter. This would hurt a lot of hard working lower income people in the area as well as out of staters with houses here.

[nightrider]

Not everyone who owner lakefront property are necessarily wealthy. You have many properties that have been in families for a generation or more and were purchased for a very moderate cost half a century, or more, ago. Many of these people cannot afford a doubling of an already exhorbitant tax burden. If these people want to hold onto their property instead of selling, they will most likely have to rent to retain their property. This will translate into lake front homes being filled all summer long, rather than just weekends, and with people who may not respect the lake and land as much as the long-time property owner. The renters will be on the lake all day long,all week long, all summer long, trying to get their vacation bang-for-the-buck. This overuse may cause the already overburdened lake to deteriorate faster than ever. Is this what the people in Concord want to take a chance on??? Do residents really want 2nd home owners to have to rent the properties to pay for taxes. Do residents really want renters who have no vested interest in property values living in the houses next to them or across the street??? I hope everyone thinks hard on this one before imposing this tax.

[Bear Islander]

Nightrider is right about this.

There have been several properties on Bear that has been sold because the families can't pay the taxes. There are homes that have been in the same family for a hundred years and more. They are not rich, just regular folk trying to keep their hands on an heirloom that has been passed down to them.

[Rose]

Anyone ever think that the people who proposed this bill realize how unpopular it will be, so that when they propose the 3% sales tax, people will decide that's an easier pill to swallow?

[LIforrelaxin]

Moving in sounds OK to me. If I am a NH resident I can stop paying MA income tax, and if this passes pay less real estate tax.



You must be retired.... because if you work in Ma. and stay working in Mass. even though you might claim NH residence.... you will still pay Ma. income tax..... And another catch 22 here is if you work in MA. and stay in Ma. durring the work week in a private residence, and are in the Ma. borders more then 180 days you will have a hard time conviencing the Ma. Government that you are a NH resident...... Claiming residency unless you live and work in a state gets tricky..... sometime you end up paying taxes in two states as is the case for NY workers that work in VT. They pay thier Vermont income tax on thier wages and then pay NY the differnce between NY income tax and Vermont income tax.......

[ITD]

Anyone ever think that the people who proposed this bill realize how unpopular it will be, so that when they propose the 3% sales tax, people will decide that's an easier pill to swallow?

Pretty insightful Rose, I think you are onto something.

Maybe they want to raise taxes so the politicians can have have a soft landing when they leave elected office, like Democrat Marty Meahan, who "beat out" several actually qualified candidates to become President of the UMASS system, for a mere $280,000 per year, plus a car AND a driver and a full pension when he decides to retire. If you're not rich when you go in, you can become rich when you get out, all on the taxpayers back.

Oh yeah, keep asking for those extra taxes, hacks like Marty need to live, richly, off your money.:D

[Dave R]

Anyone ever think that the people who proposed this bill realize how unpopular it will be, so that when they propose the 3% sales tax, people will decide that's an easier pill to swallow?

I don't think this bill will be all that unpopular with the typical NH homeowner. The majority do not own two homes and probably never plan to. I imagine renters would be pretty unhappy about it since landlords will just pass this increase along to tenants.

[wehatetoquitit]

since most of the Islands are occoupied by 2nd homes, I don't imagine they will be happy either. Especially, since they typically do not have children attending local schools or benefit from other local services that are afforded to the main land residences.

[Rose]

...Democrat Marty Meahan, who "beat out" several actually qualified candidates to become President of the UMASS system, for a mere $280,000 per year, plus a car AND a driver and a full pension when he decides to retire...

Actually, he's only been hired as the Chancellor for UMass - Lowell...the President of the UMass system is Jack Wilson. Not sure what he makes, but it's probably 7 figures.

Being a graduate from UMass - Lowell (3 times), I can tell you that Meehan can't be any worse than the chancellor who just retired. Of course, I'm a little biased since he was trying his best to kill the meteorology program at the school, to the point where one semester we only had one full-time professor. Luckily, the head of the Center for Atmospheric Research was against this, and since the Center brings a lot of money to the university, he got his way and actually expanded the program.

The only adminstrator who did anything for UMass - Lowell was William Bulger...not exactly a beacon of integrity, but the North campus was a dump until Bulger came along.

[ITD]

Actually, he's only been hired as the Chancellor for UMass - Lowell...the President of the UMass system is Jack Wilson. Not sure what he makes, but it's probably 7 figures.

Being a graduate from UMass - Lowell (3 times), I can tell you that Meehan can't be any worse than the chancellor who just retired. Of course, I'm a little biased since he was trying his best to kill the meteorology program at the school, to the point where one semester we only had one full-time professor. Luckily, the head of the Center for Atmospheric Research was against this, and since the Center brings a lot of money to the university, he got his way and actually expanded the program.

The only adminstrator who did anything for UMass - Lowell was William Bulger...not exactly a beacon of integrity, but the North campus was a dump until Bulger came along.

You're right, UMass - Lowell, was ULowell when I graduated in 1984. I still can't grasp the salary plus the car and driver, these people have no shame, in fact they feel it is owed to them.

[jrc]

Maybe once we get our NH income tax in place, we can afford some good patronage, maybe even some graft and corruption. With our current tax system, we can barely pay the bills never mind having jobs like that. :laugh:

I know NH government isn't perfect, I'm sure there's some bums, but it's nowhere near what goes on in "rich" states.

BTW I'm very afraid of HB 925. Think about it, it taxes mostly non-voters and helps mostly voters. What pol can resist? We have to hope that there sense of fairness overrides their vote greed.

[Airwaves]

APS
You disappoint me. I stopped posting to this forum months ago because of nonsense like this.

You have quoted a website and are trying to pass it off as something that it is not! The quote?

"...We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good...."
—Senator Hillary Clinton, 2004

Your source?
http://www.hillaryforpresident-2008.com

That is NOT Hillary Clinton’s website. It is a website generate by someone opposed to the politics of Hillary. You are well aware of this fact given that you had to visit the website in order to gain the quote and link, yet you pass it off as if it were true!

Who owns the website? Whoever owns it, won't own up to it!

http://who.godaddy.com/WhoIs.aspx?domain=hillaryforpresident-2008.com&prog_id=godaddy

Interesting that the actual owner of the website slams Hillary, using her name in an attempt to confuse folks, but won't step forward himself.

So, how can anyone continue to believe anything else you have to say?

As for the debate at hand, gosh I am only a taxpayer in NH, not a voter. I guess you NH residents have things well in hand!

Out

[fatlazyless]

HB 925 has a list of about ten new tax increases including a sales tax on motor vehicles costing more than 30K, single items costing more than 10k, change in the beer tax, estates more than 3 million, gambling, entertainment......payrolls of 10k+/week and some other stinkers I cannot remember and....and....and the already mentioned second homes and commercial property double-trouble tax.

According to the last Meredith assessment, the land on my 1/4 acre residential lot is worth 70% as much as the land on the one acre commercial lot under the Inn at Bay Point, at the big intersection of State Routes 3 and 25. How can that be?

Maybe I'm not the brightest bulb out in the barn but this HB 925 would sure help your everyday working stiff like me who just struggles to buy gasoline and pay his property taxes.

So here's hoping it passes and gets tagged the Senator Judd Gregg Powerball gambling tax because it would be the future cure to his Powerball winning of $850,000. on 10/20/05 with no NH tax what-so-ever. I, for one, am getting tired of subsidizing Judd's use of state services with my McChicken 8 cent taxes. How many McChickens does it take to support Sen Gregg? HB 925......onward and upward to the NH State Senate! It's good to have a Democratic majority that has some basic common sense!

[Mee-n-Mac]

{snip} Maybe I'm not the brightest bulb out in the barn but this HB 925 would sure help your everyday working stiff like me who just struggles to buy gasoline and pay his property taxes. {snip}


With your extra $$ may I suggest you partake in a limited-time offer I have for you. The bridge to Govenor's Island is up for sale. Think of all the profits you can make by charging tolls. E-mail me @ Igottascam.chizler.net and I'll 'splain all the details. Just have the cash handy !

Actually you're "no doubt about it" right. The way I see it, with all the rush to sell off all those 2'nd homes, the real estate market will crash. With the reduced valuations your property tax will reduce (rates, did someone say rates ... baah) and you'll come out ahead. Might be hard to buy a pizza or such with all the businesses that'll close but it's a small price for you to pay. The good thing is that the McDonalds at the top of the hill will likely stay in business and you'll still get your McChickens. Which is doubly good since I believe Senator Gregg will be making more flights to/from DC (to lobby for some "economic relief" for NH) and thus will be needing more gas which you have to pay for.

ps - I'm writing to the NH legislators to increase the taxes on fast food. You see there's an epidemic of obesity these days and I hear fast food is one cause. Just doesn't seem right to me that my health care $$s are paying for someone just to overeat w/o the financial consequences. Besides who has the spare $s to go out to eat ? Since it's common sense (just like the seatbelt law) it should be passed. Perhaps Senator Gregg will have to take the train to DC afterall.

[ITD]

APS
You disappoint me. I stopped posting to this forum months ago because of nonsense like this.

You have quoted a website and are trying to pass it off as something that it is not! The quote?



Your source?
http://www.hillaryforpresident-2008.com

That is NOT Hillary Clinton’s website. It is a website generate by someone opposed to the politics of Hillary. You are well aware of this fact given that you had to visit the website in order to gain the quote and link, yet you pass it off as if it were true!

Who owns the website? Whoever owns it, won't own up to it!

http://who.godaddy.com/WhoIs.aspx?domain=hillaryforpresident-2008.com&prog_id=godaddy

Interesting that the actual owner of the website slams Hillary, using her name in an attempt to confuse folks, but won't step forward himself.

So, how can anyone continue to believe anything else you have to say?

As for the debate at hand, gosh I am only a taxpayer in NH, not a voter. I guess you NH residents have things well in hand!

Out

Come on Airwaves,

This may have not been pounced on by the mainstream press but here is the quote and I have seen the video, it's out there and you're in the media, you should be able to find this easily, if you were to actually look.

Hillary said at a $10,000 a plate fundraiser in 2004.

Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you," Clinton said, according to the Associated Press. "We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you.
"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

From the first link I found: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39205

Whenever you hear "common good", just think of Karl Marx and what a success he was.....

It's pretty easy to slam Hillary, you just have to use her own words via quotes.

This is absolutely relevant to this thread because it shows the jeopardy that our Lake Winnipesaukee owner and user wallets are in when these people get into power. Just about every post FLL does is like a page off the Democrat party talking points. People for these taxes just don't understand that they will end up paying for this, not the proverbial other guy they are trying to pass the bill off to.


Edit: Just found it again, buried in an article nice and deep, where it hard to find: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20040629-0007-ca-clintons-sanfrancisco.html

[NonVoting Taxpayer]

Sounds like New Hampshire missed the boat when they didn't elect Gary Dodds. According to the news this morning and the charges being brought against him, he would have fit right in with the rest of the New Hampshie Politicians..

[Airwaves]

ITD
Once again you miss the point.

APS has always been very good at making cases for his arguments and providing credible sources and links. He and I disagree on the speed limit issue but I enjoy his debate

My criticism is tht APS chose to use a completely anonymous and blantantly biased source for his quote on Hillary. Complete with a link through Clinton's name.

His argument and use of the quote would have been much more compelling if he had chosen to use, as you did, credible sources with appropriate links.

Now, was that quote taken out of context? That's another discussion for another forum.

[GrandmaBig6]

We are getting off track here about this ridiculous bill that has been proposed…

I just want to make sure I understand what is being written here and what the bill is all about. Basically, anyone who is not a permanent resident of the State of NH will have their real estate taxes doubled. Am I understanding the bill and all the postings correctly?

I do not own a house in NH, but each of my aunts do. These ladies are senior citizens, retired and living on limited incomes. They each own a place in NY where they pay taxes. They go to their NH homes for 4 months a YEAR for a vacation.

Do you mean to tell me, if the bill passes, that these ladies will have their taxes doubled even though they do not use the schools, etc., for more than 8months a year?

Do I have this right?

[fatlazyless]

Yes, that is correct. HB925 would double the prop tax on non-primary homes plus add a list of ten other tax increases. It will most likely not get passed and will die in 'retained in committee.' Basically, with neither an income or sales tax and killer-diller property taxes a lot of local, voting home owners are under stress and the polticians are feeling their constituents' pain, or something? Stay tuned to the long running saga of 'how do we get someone else to pay for everything in tax-free New Hampshire and preserve the (not-so-wonderfull) NH Advantage?'

[ITD]

ITD
Once again you miss the point.

APS has always been very good at making cases for his arguments and providing credible sources and links. He and I disagree on the speed limit issue but I enjoy his debate

My criticism is tht APS chose to use a completely anonymous and blantantly biased source for his quote on Hillary. Complete with a link through Clinton's name.

His argument and use of the quote would have been much more compelling if he had chosen to use, as you did, credible sources with appropriate links.

Now, was that quote taken out of context? That's another discussion for another forum.

Sorry Airwaves, but it is you that misses the point. The point is that regardless of the source, the information that APS referenced was an accurate quotation of the Senator's speech easily verified and your post gives the impression that APS or the website he referenced made the quote up. Nothing could be further from the truth. Before you jump on someone else for misinformation, make sure you have it right yourself.

As far as context, there is no way that an idea so well articulated and spoken by the Senator could be taken out of context and although I would love to hear your spin on it we are getting way off track here.

[Skip]

...Basically, anyone who is not a permanent resident of the State of NH will have their real estate taxes doubled. Am I understanding the bill and all the postings correctly?...

Just a quick correction. It doesn't matter if the property owner is a resident or non-resident. Permanent residents's of New Hampshire that own second properties that they do not reside in would also pay double.

But remember, Way & Means did not put this bill forward and retained it in committee. It WILL NOT be brought to the House floor for a vote this year. Everyone has plenty of time to voice their concerns and my prediciton is this bill, like hundreds of other proposed this year, will die quietly within the committee.

[AC2717]

Well to me what is scarey is that, whether or not this bill makes it, is that it was thought up and presented meaning that something like this could be right behind it again and we will be constantly dodging bullets, hopefully without getting hit.
:confused:

[Airwaves]

ITD
This is my last word on this topic since, as has been pointed out, it is getting way off topic.
You wrote:
The point is that regardless of the source, the information that APS referenced was an accurate quotation of the Senator's speech easily verified
The fact is, the quote was made at a $10,000 a plate fundraiser for Barbara Boxer and spoken to people who could afford to pay $10,000 to go to a political fundraiser. This is something that both of your sources pointed out but APS's source, that is masquerading as an "official" Hillary site, did not.
You wrote:
your post gives the impression that APS or the website he referenced made the quote up. Nothing could be further from the truth
The way that APS used the quote especially given the topic of this thread, was intended to imply that Hillary was ready to "take away" from the average taxpayer in NH for the "Common Good".

So yes, source material is very very important!

As Skip points out, the bill has been retained in committee and is dead for the year.

I do have a question, when I looked up the party affiliation of the five folks who sponsored the bill, 3 were listed as D and 2 were listed as R&D.

What is an R&D?

[Airwaves]

Appears I can't edit my posts.

I just wanted to make it clearer that Hillary made the comment to folks who could afford to pay $10,000 a plate, for a political fundraiser, and was talking about the Bush tax cuts during a time of war.

[ApS]

"...APS has always been very good at making cases for his arguments and providing credible sources and links. He and I disagree on the speed limit issue but I enjoy his debate.
Thank you, and likewise to you!

Since that "Common Good" excerpt was one I'd only heard on the airwaves, locating those unwritten words was more difficult than I'd expected.

That it had the unintended consequence of returning another credible voice to this forum's debates was a plus.

(Neener Neener Neener). :D

[Skip]

...I do have a question, when I looked up the party affiliation of the five folks who sponsored the bill, 3 were listed as D and 2 were listed as R&D...What is an R&D?

Ah, the mysterious R & D!

Each primary a number of politicians in partisan races find themselves unopposed. Let's say the politician in question is a Democrat. If ten or more Republican voters write his/her name in on the blank Republican box for that race, his/her name will appear on both sides of the general election ticket. Since he/she is now on both sides of the general election ticket he/she has been morphed in to a R & D!

In reality, the individual elected is still a loyal member (usually) of their initial party, you might have to dig a little deeper to find out which party that is.

In my area the County Commissioners are usually Democrats and usually unopposed in the primary. Since the top vote getter in the general election usually is annointed and the Commission Chair, they try and get as many Republican voters to write them in in the primary and look for the extra republican votes in the general election from straight ticket voters. Oops, looks like straight ticket voting is going away!

Isn't politics grand???!!! :)

[vrrooom]

As one of my NH politico friends tells me they are RINO's:translated as Republicans In Name Only. Because until recently, in some parts of the state you could not get elected if you ran as a Democrat, so what did you do, you ran as a Republican. Now that the winds have changed direction in Concord, you will see more ships of pollitics with their true colors flying. JMNHO.:emb:

[ApS]

One unintended consequence of this bill is a mass-ingress of Republicans who own 2nd homes in New Hampshire. They will change their state residency to NH, closing the apparent gap between the two parties in the state.

However, the definition of "residential real estate" indicates that if you live at your 2nd home for seven or eight months of the year—as I do—that this doubling of property taxes will not apply.

Definition:

"...II. In this section, “residential real estate” means the real estate which the taxpayer occupies as his or her principal place of abode together with any land or buildings appurtenant thereto and shall include manufactured housing if used for said purpose..."

A second unintended consequence is to force more 2nd-home owners into the rental market.

Now that Bike Month already faces "gouging rates" for rentals (http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?p=46793#post46793), this can't be good news for visiting bikers—who already "contribute" to an additional 8% Meals-and-Rooms-Tax.

(Not that the property tax hike wouldn't be worth it, you understand). :laugh:

[Skip]

...However, the definition of "residential real estate" indicates that if you live at your 2nd home for seven or eight months of the year—as I do—that this doubling of property taxes will not apply...

No, that is not true.

You can only claim one primary residential residence in New Hampshire. Only your primary residence is exempted in this tabled proposal. To claim that residence, it must be your legal residence. In New Hampshire, length of stay does not determine your primary residence.

Example, I live, vote and hold my driver's license in, say, Florida. I have a second residence in New Hampshire. I spend the better part of the year at my New Hampshire home. Under this proposed bill my New Hampshire home is not my primary residence and therefore subject to enhanced taxation.

In New Hampshire legal residency is not tied to how many days a year you spend in the State. Unfortunately that misconception continues to be widespread.

[tis]

Also CW, if you took a real estate exemption in NH, you would lose the one in Fl. (which I assume is why you are a Fl. resident?) To get the homestead in Fl., you have to have a letter from your town saying you get no other exemptions on your NH (or whatever) property.

[jetskier]

No, that is not true.

You can only claim one primary residential residence in New Hampshire. Only your primary residence is exempted in this tabled proposal. To claim that residence, it must be your legal residence. In New Hampshire, length of stay does not determine your primary residence.

Example, I live, vote and hold my driver's license in, say, Florida. I have a second residence in New Hampshire. I spend the better part of the year at my New Hampshire home. Under this proposed bill my New Hampshire home is not my primary residence and therefore subject to enhanced taxation.

In New Hampshire legal residency is not tied to how many days a year you spend in the State. Unfortunately that misconception continues to be widespread.

Skip, can you offer a pointer to the source of this information? My wife is a CPA and the estate planning course (CPE credits) indicated otherwise.

Jetskier:cool:

[This'nThat]

This is what you get when you put the dems in office. Tax and spend, tax and spend.:rolleye2:
You left one thing out -- and NOT THINK. These people ALWAYS assume that they own your money, and that we all agree with their tax and spend ways. It's a very arrogant attitude, and shows exactly what happens when they get a little power.

[Skip]

Skip, can you offer a pointer to the source of this information? My wife is a CPA and the estate planning course (CPE credits) indicated otherwise.

Jetskier:cool:

Not sure what your specific question is in relation to the post. Shoot me a PM with the particulars....:)

[This'nThat]

BTW I'm very afraid of HB 925. Think about it, it taxes mostly non-voters and helps mostly voters. What pol can resist? We have to hope that there sense of fairness overrides their vote greed.
Worse than that, this would only be the start. Do some research. Every state that began new taxes set them at an initial rate, and then RAPIDLY increased that rate in subsequent years. The toughest part was getting the tax bill in place at the beginning -- increasing the rates was easy. Check out the recent history in New Jersey on their sales and income taxes.

[RLW]

No, that is not true.
You can only claim one primary residential residence in New Hampshire. Only your primary residence is exempted in this tabled proposal. To claim that residence, it must be your legal residence. In New Hampshire, length of stay does not determine your primary residence.
Example, I live, vote and hold my driver's license in, say, Florida. I have a second residence in New Hampshire. I spend the better part of the year at my New Hampshire home. Under this proposed bill my New Hampshire home is not my primary residence and therefore subject to enhanced taxation.
In New Hampshire legal residency is not tied to how many days a year you spend in the State. Unfortunately that misconception continues to be widespread.
What reaaly does constitutes ones primary residence. If it is a drivers license, what if one does not drive, if it is if one is registred to vote, many do not do that either as it is ones choice. Some places call for at least 3 bills be delivered to an address in the town which they claim their residence in. That's not had to do.
This is questions only and not to start a problem :)

[Skip]

What reaaly does constitutes ones primary residence. If it is a drivers license, what if one does not drive, if it is if one is registred to vote, many do not do that either as it is ones choice. Some places call for at least 3 bills be delivered to an address in the town which they claim their residence in. That's not had to do.
This is questions only and not to start a problem :)

Its even more complicated. What if you are homeless? You still have a right ot vote somewhere.

What if you live full time in an RV and travel the country, owning no property except the four wheels underneth you? You still have to have a home in order to vote, register your RV and so on.

That is why the old standard of 180 days or three utility bills are no longer the standards.

In New Hampshire what they have done is evolve in to the belief that you can call anywhere home, as long as you only call one place home. Much of this has been driven from the federal level to ensure everyone has a right to vote and are not discriminated against by local officials with varying definitions of residency. Up until a few years ago virtually every community in New Hampshire had different standards to determine residency. FLL was not far off in his joke about having to meet with the selectmen so they could "divine" whether you were worthy enough to call their community home.

This is such an important issue, especially concerning voting rights, that virtually all election officers and many volunteers (I serve as an elected ward moderator in my City) attended mandatory education on this particular subject given by the New Hampshire Attorney General's Office last year. It was very meaningful and eye opening training!

Unfortunately the looser definitions afforded to residency by the courts and the feds also can also lead to abuse, but that's another thread.

By the way, this is New Hampshire's legal definition of resident:

21:6-a Residence. – Residence or residency shall mean a person's place of abode or domicile. The place of abode or domicile is that designated by a person as his principal place of physical presence for the indefinite future to the exclusion of all others. Such residence or residency shall not be interrupted or lost by a temporary absence from it, if there is an intent to return to such residence or residency as the principal place of physical presence.

Ah, the lawyers just love this stuff! ;)

[Skip]

...The last page of the NHCTC/Laconia Admissions Application says that if a student is not financially independent and living apart from their parents, that the parents must be domiciled in NH for 12 continuous months and have no other domicile. Someone there told me that was actually relaxed from a former two-year residency requirement!...

Establishing yourself as a legal resident of New Hampshire (or establishing a legal domicile) is a completely separate issue then maintaining legal residence in the state for a minimal prescribed time in order to obtain in-state tuition rates! :)

[Skip]

My apologies....your post makes sense to me now upon second look and you are absolutely correct. New Hampshire is very strict when it comes to not only tuition issues for our colleges, but just as strict at the local school level as well. :)