Results!!!!! No Wake

[Great Idea]

I just received this email from Director Barrett's office. I spoke earlier with Director Flynn's office and he read a letter I had emailed in. They said action was forth coming........ It feels good to know that our state officials do listen!!! Thanks to all who championed the cause for NO WAKE.




Director Barrett has asked that I respond to your recent e-mail regarding Lake Winnipesaukee. Please be advised that the Department of Safety has just issued a press release announcing the adoption of an emergency rule as follows:

Saf-C 402.001 Emergency Restriction. Notwithstanding any rule to the contrary, until further notice, not person shall operate a vessel at a speed greater than headway speed within 600 feet from shoreline upon the waters of Silver Lake in the towns of Tilton and Belmont, Lake Winnipesaukee, Lake Winnisquam and Lake Opechee.

[Dave R]

600 feet is better than 150 but maybe not enough... Has the water dropped any or is it still full+13"?

[B R]

so people can start cancelling their weekend plans and make plans to go elsewhere.

i just cancelled mine.

[HotDog]

600 ft is fine don't be cancelling your plans!!!!!!!!

[mcdude]

Kayakers and Canoers....now is the time to actually go out on the BIG lake and enjoy!

[ITD]

so people can start cancelling their weekend plans and make plans to go elsewhere.

i just cancelled mine.

Thank you, especially if your plans had included bombing around in the lake.

My boat was scheduled to go in this Sunday, I just postponed for at least two weeks.

I still think this doesn't go far enough.

[Kevin C]

Thank you, especially if your plans had included bombing around in the lake.

My boat was scheduled to go in this Sunday, I just postponed for at least two weeks.

I still think this doesn't go far enough.

ITD....I think you assume to much when you use words like "bombing" and you know what you do when you assume. I don't blame him for cancelling and being disappointed. A day out on the big lake is precious. I too have postponed my boating given the present scenario until the lake drops, however, I like to bring it up beyond no wake speed at times when it's ok to do so

[ITD]

ITD....I think you assume to much when you use words like "bombing" and you know what you do when you assume. I don't blame him for cancelling and being disappointed. A day out on the big lake is precious. I too have postponed my boating given the present scenario until the lake drops, however, I like to bring it up beyond no wake speed at times when it's ok to do so

You're right, bombing was too strong a word and I will quit on this before I dig in deeper. Sorry your plans were ruined BR (and Kevin) and thank you for choosing not to add to the problem by keeping your boat off the lake or not boating above headway speed.

[ApS]

"...I just received this email from Director Barrett's office. I spoke earlier with Director Flynn's office and he read a letter I had emailed in. They said action was forth coming........ It feels good to know that our state officials do listen!!! Thanks to all who championed the cause for NO WAKE..."

We needed NO WAKE. What we got is scarcely better than last weekend's "urged".

Apparently state officials don't realize that wakes travel huge distances and don't stop magically at 600 feet.

Enforcement will be more difficult than the 150-foot rule, IMO. Hundreds just got carte blanche to cause mayhem. :(

[TomC]

..what everyone meant by "no wake lake-wide"? Was this what happened in the earlier "no wake" periods (i wasn't around the lake in 84, and i don't recall the 98 incident very well...)

600 ft instead of 150 ft doesn't seem to be much of a "decision"

[KonaChick]

so people can start cancelling their weekend plans and make plans to go elsewhere.

i just cancelled mine.
If it makes you feel better you're in good company. We as lakefront homeowners have also cancelled our plans to enjoy a weekend on the lake. It is depressing especially with temps. that are supposed to be in the 90's by Sunday. It's a small sacrifice to wait until things have dropped a bit though and that way we can keep down the wakes and hopefully keep damage to ALL things around the shoreline to a minimum.

[SJF]

Yep we also just canceled our plans. That is 5 more people that won't be able to spend their money in the lakes region. I hope this doesn't affect the economy in the area to badly. There are a lot of local businesses that count on these holiday weekends. Happy Memorial Day and see you in a few weeks!

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

..what everyone meant by "no wake lake-wide"? Was this what happened in the earlier "no wake" periods (i wasn't around the lake in 84, and i don't recall the 98 incident very well...) ...

As I recall, in 1998 the emergency No Wake restriction was for all of Lake Winnipesaukee. No exclusion 600 feet from shore as is the case today.

It did get a bit tedious boating at only headway back then. Particularly when I (very slowly) went to help a disabled boat get away from the rocks...

[Coolbreeze]

You are a fool if you cancell your holiday lake plans this weekend all because you can't go faster than headway speed! I know a boat is a big part of the lake, but common! I love the opportunity to get on that lake at any time under any circumstances,except lightning ofcoarse. As the previous poster put it, this is probably the safest time and rare opportunity to use a row boat or canoe on the lake and really enjoy and appreciate the true beauty without getting run over. Plus... think about how quiet it will be. Like being back in theold days. I will gladly take your place if you feel like trading! Relax and enjoy it even if it isn't what you are use to or planned on. When this "crisis" passes, you will look back on it and say "man, remember how quiet the lake was that holiday weekend, that sure was nice". Have a happy holiday.

[MAXUM]

Well this will make for a nice quiet weekend on the lake.

[Quilt Lady]

The "No Wake" was for the entire lake, with no exceptions. It was actually a very pleasant time on the water. Our sailboat was the fastest thing on the water. You could talk to other boaters as you went past. The fishing was great. Those who are cancelling their reservations are going to miss out on some "most excellent" time on the lake. When you slow down, you can see so much more of the lake, poke around places you've never been and get a real feel for the peace and beauty of the lake that we all cherish. It's only for a short time until the dam operators can restore the lake to its normal level. I, for one, plan to enjoy the slower speed. No need for sour grapes. When life hands you lemons, make lemonade!:)

[Airwaves]

Just FYI,
Here is what we are dealing with "downstream" of the lake. Putting the boats in? Not happening any time soon!

Even though the TV cameras are gone, the Merrimack River is still OVER flood stage at the Lowell Motor Boat Club.

Our Commodore heard that Winni is going to drop the lake by two feet just after Memorial Day, that will mean water at the LMBC, still above flood stage, will increase again.

We still can't get our docks into the water much less launch boats.

So, complain about No Wake? Come on down and help us complain about No Boating!

[Kona Bay Girl]

Do the Mount, Doris E., and Sophie C. still have cruising rights around the lake? If so, it's 10 bucks (on the Doris) for an hour of lake time and with gas the way it is, it seems like a pretty good deal.

I'm coming up this weekend; in fact I'm leaving at 6:30 AM for 3 whole days of awesomeness.

[Merrymeeting]

I find it interesting that they limited it to just a select few lakes.

Though I was happy to discover this morning that Merrymeeting is down 4-6" since last weekend and seems to be dropping fast now. This is good news for Winni too as once we're done releasing, your inflow will slow too.

[Woodsy]

They basically limited the NWZ restriction to the headwaters of the Merrimack River. I doubt they are going to drop Lake Winni 2' as Airwaves Commodore heard... they will drop the lake to just below full...

I knew the restriction would come as soon as it would be difficult for the tourists to cancel thier plans. I am surprised that they compromised on 600'.

Woodsy

[jkjoshuatree]

You are a fool if you cancell your holiday lake plans this weekend all because you can't go faster than headway speed! I know a boat is a big part of the lake, but common! I love the opportunity to get on that lake at any time under any circumstances,except lightning ofcoarse. As the previous poster put it, this is probably the safest time and rare opportunity to use a row boat or canoe on the lake and really enjoy and appreciate the true beauty without getting run over. Plus... think about how quiet it will be. Like being back in theold days. I will gladly take your place if you feel like trading! Relax and enjoy it even if it isn't what you are use to or planned on. When this "crisis" passes, you will look back on it and say "man, remember how quiet the lake was that holiday weekend, that sure was nice". Have a happy holiday....I completely agree with CoolBreeze and QuiltLady.

Lake Winnipesaukee it one of the prettiest place on earth and to cancel your plans because of the "no wake" rule is insane.

There are a million other things to do in, on, or around the lake.

Hiking, fishing, horseback riding, getting in the car and exploring all the off-the-beaten roads around the lake (there must be hundreds of them-I try to explore at least one town in its entirety every year), not to mention shopping, fine dining, museums, and some great public libraries.

I live in the city, so just the thought of sitting on our porch on Bear Island with my family and enjoying the fresh air and tranquility is more than enough for me. I'd be there even if the forecast called for monsoons for the next three days.

Spend more time with your family, get to know them again, play stupid games, take a walk through the woods.

I'm a little bummed about the "no wake" rule? Yes. My dad just bought a brand new boat (our first one in over thirty years) and I'd love to be out in it waterskiing, hydrosliding, and tubing.

But I wouldn't miss being at the lake in ANY condition for anything in the world.

Okay...I'm stepping off my soapbox now. Thanks for listening to my rant.



Jk

[ITD]

I didn't know boat wakes only traveled 500 feet. Sounds like bureaucrat science to me.

[GusMan]

Wow.... I never knew it was up to certain people to decide what is foolish or not when it comes other people's hard earned vacation dollars.

Talk about arrogance.....

Gusman

[B R]

You are a fool if you cancel your holiday lake plans this weekend all because you can't go faster than headway speed! I know a boat is a big part of the lake, but common! I love the opportunity to get on that lake at any time under any circumstances, except lightning of coarse. As the previous poster put it, this is probably the safest time and rare opportunity to use a row boat or canoe on the lake and really enjoy and appreciate the true beauty without getting run over. Plus... think about how quiet it will be. Like being back in the old days. I will gladly take your place if you feel like trading! Relax and enjoy it even if it isn't what you are use to or planned on. When this "crisis" passes, you will look back on it and say "man, remember how quiet the lake was that holiday weekend that sure was nice". Have a happy holiday.

When all you have is a boat on the lake, spending $300-$400 a day when the lake is basically closed seems foolish to me.

What I am most upset about is we called marine patrol on Wednesday and they were adamant that the lake would be open. I’m not saying it's wrong to have a no wake limit, I’m saying the lack of communication on the subject was terrible. You have the governor saying "New Hampshire is open for business". All of us "day trippers" will probably disagree with that statement when we bring our boats to our usually place and find the lake practically closed. We’ll be at the Cape, not a bad second choice.

Woodsy, you took back your prediction too soon. You were right on!!!

[KonaChick]

Someone should call Mike Wallace..i smell a conspiracy! Wait..i think he's retired and on the lake boating (headway speed 600' from shore of course)!! ;)

[Woodsy]

We have a bunch of competing interests, so it is a compromise...

NH had a very lackluster winter tourist season due to lack of snow. Then all of this flood damage. Where is the money supposed to come from to pay for the flood damage and make up the lost revenue? Tourists & daytrippers!

600' will dissipate alot of the energy from the wakes of smaller boats... the bigger cabin cruisers have the potential to do some damage.

Woodsy

[Lake Lady 6]

I agree with you that the State could have imposed the ban earlier in the week so that those that wished to change their plans would have had more time to do so. The problems were here as early as 10 days ago.
We visit friends on the Cape and the offshore boating is great and the place to be if speed is your thing. Of course there isn't much to see out on the ocean and wide open but to each his own. When we first came to Lake Winnipesaukee we would stay in motels and tow our boat. We spent at least 8 hours a day, weather permitting, on the lake cruising. We knew every nook and cranny, what was for sale, where they were building, etc. Since the mid 80's we have owned a place on the water and it never ceases to amaze me the majority of large boats (not cabin cruisers) always go by at a high rate of speed - they certainly are not appreciating any of the mountain views, etc.
Maybe the answer is the ocean. There is a lot of ocean shoreline in New England.
Enjoy your weekend on the Cape.

[playinghooky]

For me it's hard to judge distance especially over water. Most people have trouble judging 150 feet no less 600 feet. So I went on to Google Earth and did some measurements. For example Alton Bay ranged from about 1300 feet wide to 3,000 feet wide further north. It's about 1950 feet wide across from Echo Point to the west side. What this means is that you could go full speed anywhere down Alton Bay as long as you stayed out in the middle (except around Sandy Point). Sandy Point is only around 850 feet across. I'm not suggesting you do this but it just gives you and idea of how far 600 feet really is. It really shouldn't hamper anybodies boating too much for the weekend.

[Island-Ho]

What a cop out by the powers that be. 600 feet is no better than the normal 150 feet as far as wake effect on docks and shorelines. I plan to be at the lake, and will certainly comply with the 600 foot rule and more. I need my boat to get to my island property, but once there I will enjoy the lake from non-motorized vessels. I had no problem keeping to headway speed last time this was imposed, even for my 2 mile ride. Just think, you can even talk to your passengers without shouting. I can't believe people are actually changing their plans because they have to slow down within 600 feet of shore instead of 150 feet, but thank you anyway. :) The lake should be a little less hectic than normal this weekend.

[gtxrider]

From what I am reading the lake is not closed there are speed restrictions. Go out and enjoy a nice leisurely cruise see the sites. Some of us don't have the chance this weekend to be at the lake.

How about some cheese with the whine?

[Lake Lady 6]

The NWZ rule is in effect officially 600 feet from shore. Unfortunately it is difficult for most people to visualize the distance from shore and most do not care.
I have been working outside all day and have observed about 2 out of 10 boats observing the NWZ. The boats that have been coming from the West Alton Marina area and heading to the west side of Rattlesnake have been among the worst offenders. Only one boat was going at headway speed. Have the marinas posted the official notice??
Perhaps the boaters are aware of the NWZ rule and choose to ignore it - they should stand on shore and see the effect as the wave increases as it rolls in.
You can't legislate common sense, courtesy or concern for others - there will always be a Capt. Bonehead on the water.

[John A. Birdsall]

I will also not be putting my boat in this weekend, but that has not changed my plans I leave for the State in one hour. I think that a speed limit has been placed on the lake. Never mind 25 or 45, It seems odd that this happens but it is something we all can live with, it won't be long. I think people will find it difficult to judge the 600' rule, and then also perhaps have to apply the 150' rule. Needless to say I hope that this Memorial Day will not cause anyone to have additional memorials to do, So Drive safe, drive responsibly either on land or on water. God Bless America!

[Winni]

We needed NO WAKE. What we got is scarcely better than last weekend's "urged".

Apparently state officials don't realize that wakes travel huge distances and don't stop magically at 600 feet.

Enforcement will be more difficult than the 150-foot rule, IMO. Hundreds just got carte blanche to cause mayhem. :(

I tried calling the Governor's office, the best governor we've had in a long time by the way, but was really disgusted. I was on hold forever and then told by the fellow answering the phone he would absolutely communicate my concerns to the Gov. He even used the word "promised"!

Well, contrary to what the Governor's website tells us, he apparently is not listening on this one. Have none of these grown men ever stuck their fingers in a bowl of water, swished them around, and seen what happens at the edges of the bowl?

Essentially that is what is going to happen this weekend. It always seems no one cares unless we get about 5 - 10 deaths due to a certain cause anymore. It was obviously the case with the 45/25 speed limit proposal, and it's holding true here once again. How many kids on waterskis, or whatever, are going to have to be hurt by the debris in the water? Does no one care that pieces of, if not whole docks, are going to come loose? Does no one care that people's boats are going to be damaged, not to even mention what will happen to the shore's wildlife nests!

Sorry, but I don't have the money to burn as those fellows who want to buzz my lake do. I don't have the money to rebuild my dock and I surely don't want to see anyone hurt by the debris. What was the Gov. thinking with this one? He needs a lesson in physics! It ABSOLUTELY should have been 100% NO WAKE, not only all weekend, but until we are back down to an at least close-to-normal level! Yes, I am mad about this one!:mad:

[Aquadeziac]

Lets see what happens Tuesday. Everyone will be home again, and then they can make the NWZ lake-wide. The merchants will have full pockets. There will be that much more unnecessary property damage done. But the all-mighty dollar will still rule. Seems to me that if these people have to lay out more and more money for property damage that could have been avoided, thats that much less revenue for the crying shopkeepers to rake in over a longer amount of time than just a three day weekend. Disposable income now becomes necessary income. Real tunnel vision, wouldn't you say? I don't recall this much whining in 1998 when the lakewide NWZ was in effect over the Fourth of July holiday.

[Belmont Resident]

Since many are so concerned why not take a proactive approach?
Call the marinas and ask if they have signs posted letting boaters know about the rule.
Or better yet print some out and post them yourself, I'll bet the marinas will not mind.
I found out only by mistake and I live here.

[Grant]

Well, you can mandate "now wake," but that doesn't mean people will comply. And the 600 feet does nothing. A big "belongs-in-the-ocean" boat came blowing by our place last evening, probably going 40-50 MPH, and a good 500-800 feet out. The resulting wake was a good as if he'd been 200 feet off shore.

[jkjoshuatree]

Wow.... I never knew it was up to certain people to decide what is foolish or not when it comes other people's hard earned vacation dollars.

Talk about arrogance.....

Gusman



Gusman, I hope you're not talking about me. It has nothing to do with arrogance. For those of you who know me, you know I don't have an arrogant bone in my body.

All I'm saying is that the Lakes Region has a lot to offer beside the lake itself.

This "the lake has a no wake zone...whaahhhh.....I'm gonna go to the Cape instead....whaahhhh....." is getting a little old.

Grow up.

[Winni]

:( Since many are so concerned why not take a proactive approach?

Well, I tried the proactive approach, but that doesn't work either. I've been watching these monster boats, who claim they make no wake on plane (right....), zipping by my place since Thursday, and it's now Saturday morning. I tried calling the governor's office. I tried calling the Marine Patrol multiple times. Last night I even brought them a nice big hunk of someones dock with a lot of nice long nails sticking out of it that washed up onto our boat ramp as an example of the deathly salad of trash floating out in the middle of our bay.

I got lambasted for all this effort. All I'm trying to do is get the Marine Patrol to understand that "dispatching" is not the answer. It doesn't work with the 150 ft. rule and it's not going to work with a 600 ft. rule. By the time these selfish people go blasting by, they are long gone before a Patrol boat can be "dispatched"! Who, by the way, is going to say they were 601 ft. away or 599? How can you ever read their numbers or identify them as anything but a "red boat"? (Sound familiar? It's just like the 150 rule. We've been through all this with the same arguments about the 45/25 limit and look where it got us.)

My suggestion to the Marine Patrol was to post patrol boats in each of the large bays around the largest lakes as deterrents. (Yes, I know they need to answer emergencies first.)

Perhaps by doing this, just as you naturally slow down when you see a policeman on the side of the road with his lights flashing (admit it; we all do it), it would at least slow down some of these people somewhat. But, instead of my suggestion being "heard", as usual, all I seemed to get were the excuses. This is no different than saying the 150 ft. rule will take care of everything; it doesn't work. This rule won't help either. Those who care will comply. Those who don't won't.

As for posting hand written, non-official signs at marinas, are you kidding? The people blasting their monster boats around this weekend are so arrogant they aren't going to care what's posted there! They don't under normal circumstances care about others and they won't now. Their only interest is in their own misguided adrenaline rush as they screw it to the rest of us.

Sorry, I don't want to be mean, but this IS the reality (see my tag) and yes, the proper word to use is "arrogant"!

[SAMIAM]

Aquadesiac...that was a pretty rude and thoughtless remark..."crying shopkeepers" indeed.In case you haven't noticed,there is very little industry in the lakes region.Tourism is the very engine that drives the economy.
Those of us in business got rained out two weeks in a row.We badly need a successfull holiday weekend,especially after a winter with no snow.
I don't think anyone is totally happy with the 600' rule,but it shows a little compromise on both sides.
The "almighty" dollar,as you call it,is what paves the roads,keeps schools open,provides fire and police service.Look at the bright side....at least you won't have to rake your beach.

[NFFL]

Very well said MJP!

[Lakegeezer]

The rule is sort of working up north of Moultonboro bay. I'm in an area where safe passage is less than 600', so everyone passing by should be leaving no wake. Lots of big boats out, and all but a few are going slow until they hit the big part of the bay. The bass boats and the midsize cruisers (23'-28') are the worst scofflaws today. Many bass boats are going by slow, but at maximum wake speed. Don't they get it? The midsize boats are the ones that don't seem to care at all, and just fly by with the family on board. When blasted with an airhorn, they just wave. I'd guess 80% compliance overall. The shoreline is taking a beating when the captain boneheads go by, but its not continuous. Better than last weekend, and much better it would be with no rule at all. No power boating for me today. I'm going out shopping, to show the local businesses that no-wake doesn't mean no money.

[Aside the Point]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Everyone boating should check the Web-cams. Watch boats pass, white wakes curling, reload the image and see the effect on the water surface. Then go to the Gallery and view the images of 'Houses.' Many of the older camps, built close to the water, must be nearly floating off of foundations. Let's watch our wakes!

[DRH]

I'd guess 80% compliance overall. The shoreline is taking a beating when the captain boneheads go by, but its not continuous. Better than last weekend, and much better it would be with no rule at all. I'd say it's about the same over our way today in West Alton ... probably 80% compliance. The other 20% either don't know or don't care about the 600' restriction.

The midsize boats are the ones that don't seem to care at all, and just fly by with the family on board. Again, it's much the same here. Most of the performance boats we've seen today seem to be complying.

Considering that it's Memorial Day weekend, boat traffic seems to be relatively light overall.

[GusMan]

jkjoshuatree,

Yes, my note was in reference to your claim that anyone who altered their vacation plans due to the nowake restriction on winnie was "foolish".

That is an arrogant statement whether you meant it or not. To decide that you know what's best for *anyone* other than yourself is just plain silly. Furthermore, you imply that changing ones plans is a case of "whining" about the no wake zone.... not necessarily. I'm fairly confident that most of the people who heard about the nowake zone and chose to go elsewhere know that the lake has much to offer.

I'm not looking for an argument.....

I never whined, nor commented about the no wake zone... I simply turned left onto route 104 West (instead of East) and travelled over to Newfound and had a glorious day cruising (or bombing) around on an almost deserted lake and managed to land a few nice smallies to boot. For *MY* purposes... it was a much better option than my original plan of heading to winnie for the day.

Pretty simple, huh??

I truly hope *all* property owners survive these conditions with minimal damage...

Gusman

[ApS]

Boats here were so "all over the map" with respect to distance to shore, there was no point in determining a percentage of No-Wake compliance. Since most of my day was doing carpentry on the dock, a perpetrator-based rating system was in order—"A" being the best on the lake:

1) Outboards (All, irrespective of speed) should rate a B+ in dock-rocking.
2) Pontoon boats rate an "A"
3) Jet-Skis aren't in the running—Okay, an "A"
4) Ski-boats and wake-boats get a "D"
5) Remaining inboards: "D-"

An airhorn was used twice pre-emptively on two light cruisers, with 50% effectiveness. (One slowed to headway—one "didn't hear".) :rolleye2:

A NW wind piped up at about 3:20PM: That wind, combining now with the boat wakes, repeatedly crashed the dock and pegged the dock-rocker meter. (The surface of a large water-filled garbage can). Some very large wakes appeared "out of nowhere".

One funny encounter earlier this morning was two inboards heading towards one another at ¾-throttle -- about 200' offshore. When they came within 600' of one another, they slowed to "headway speed". When clear, they took off again.

Talk about "Not Clear on the Concept"! :laugh:

All in all? Not too bad—with two more days to go.
:eek: :confused:

[Winni]

jkjoshuatree,

I'm not looking for an argument.....

... I simply turned left onto route 104 West (instead of East) and travelled over to Newfound and had a glorious day cruising (or bombing) around on an almost deserted lake
Gusman

First of all, this is not the kind of forum where people use that kind of language. I am surprised the web master even allowed your post!

Second, the people here are not trying to tell others how to behave. They are worried and concerned about the loon nests, the otter nests (which we have on our neighboring land) and other wildlife that live at the edge of lakes...something you apparently care little about. They are worried about the safety of the general public who might be hurt by the debris in the water. And, they are worried about the land, docks, boats, etc. many, not just they themselves, have poured their hearts and souls into, in most cases, to maintain.

So, that was really nice of you to go mess up the shores of Newfound instead of Winnipesaukee. I'm sure the otters, loons, and people whose docks are underwater on Newfound are appreciative of your generosity.

If you are this disrespectful in your writing, I'm not surprised you don't recognize arrogance when you see it in the mirror.

[VarneyPoint]

So, that was really nice of you to go mess up the shores of Newfound instead of Winnipesaukee. I'm sure the otters, loons, and people whose docks are underwater on Newfound are appreciative of your generosity.

MJP,
Before you go accusing GusMan of doing something utterly destructive to Newfound Lake, maybe you should do some research. According to the DES Dam Bureau website, the height of Newfound Lake is right where it is supposed to be and is not at all flooded. He didn't do anything wrong. In fact, bravo to him for thinking outside the box.

http://www.des.state.nh.us/RTi_Home/station_information_display.asp?ID=NFLNH&Name=Newfound+Lake+Dam

[PaulS]

I saw a letter from the State of NH posted at 2 different marinas (I on Winnisquam, the other on Winnipesaukee). The marine patrol was also out in force "educating" those that weren't aware of the new rule. Paugus Bay was definitely quieter than usual, so the 600' rule is at least be helping somewhat. There is still alot of debris in the water, which is a good reason to go slow even if you aren't worried about the property owners and shoreline.

[jkjoshuatree]

jkjoshuatree,

Yes, my note was in reference to your claim that anyone who altered their vacation plans due to the nowake restriction on winnie was "foolish".

That is an arrogant statement whether you meant it or not. To decide that you know what's best for *anyone* other than yourself is just plain silly. Furthermore, you imply that changing ones plans is a case of "whining" about the no wake zone.... not necessarily. I'm fairly confident that most of the people who heard about the nowake zone and chose to go elsewhere know that the lake has much to offer.

I'm not looking for an argument.....

I never whined, nor commented about the no wake zone... I simply turned left onto route 104 West (instead of East) and travelled over to Newfound and had a glorious day cruising (or bombing) around on an almost deserted lake and managed to land a few nice smallies to boot. For *MY* purposes... it was a much better option than my original plan of heading to winnie for the day.

Pretty simple, huh??

I truly hope *all* property owners survive these conditions with minimal damage...

Gusman




First of all Gusman,


Nice language. You're a class act.

Second of all, you should read my post(s) again. I never called anyone foolish. There was a quote from another forum member that I used.

You're missing the point completely.

I'm just letting people know that Winni has a lot to offer in all of its surrounding towns and areas and it'd be good if we could take care of the environment, businesses, and property of lakeside owners all at once.

After all, we're all in this together.


Jk

[KennyOfTheLake]

No less than three people at Irwin Marine reminded us of the no wake restriction when they put our boat in. This was our first boating of the season and we enjoyed just being out there even if it was just at headway speed most of the time. Very light boat traffic in Paugus, and as others have observed, about 80% compliance. 20% are jerks, which seems like the typical ratio for most things.:rolleye2:

KOTL

[Winni]

MJP,
Before you go accusing GusMan of doing something utterly destructive to Newfound Lake, maybe you should do some research. According to the DES Dam Bureau website, the height of Newfound Lake is right where it is supposed to be and is not at all flooded. He didn't do anything wrong. In fact, bravo to him for thinking outside the box.

First of all, I don't think I accused him of "something utterly destructive", but more like being inconsiderate and thoughtless. Newfound's levels are one thing, but I know that lake well and it is certainly not the size or character of lake anyone should be "bombing" around on at any time. Also, the tone and words used in his post were not, I believe, appropriate for this forum. I'm sorry you didn't like my comment, but I think his was just grossly inappropriate.

Now, if he had said respectfully something like, "I looked up Newfound's levels (and, are you even sure he knew that before he went there?) and finding them to be at normal levels, spent a nice day fishing there instead," then I wouldn't have had a problem. But, that's not what was said or how it was said.

As for Newfound, did you happen to notice in those charts how rapid the draw down was from the dam? Don't you wonder how the people below that dam feel about that? Imagine if that were done at Winnipesaukee? Good grief! I imagine there is someplace I can go look up if that rapid draw down did do damage, but frankly I'm getting off this computer today and going out to enjoy our beautiful weather for a change.

Anyway, none of this diminishes the fact that the NWZ on Winni. should have been lake-wide, not just for 600ft., and it was just a wrong decision by the governor. Many of you are saying you see 80% compliance, but it only takes one big jolt of waves from one boat to do damage. 20% is still 20% too many. I've had enough of this, though. I hope you all have a nice weekend. Get outside and enjoy it!

(p.s. In another thread, Bizer says Newfound had been 28" above level on 5/15! Ya' think they might have been a little nervous there about boats out on their lake this weekend regardless of what the charts show? Also, Right On!, JK; we are all in this together!)

[Coolbreeze]

WOW! It is amazing how fast the topic of not enough water in the lake can go polar opposite...too much water. YIKES!!

[Winni]

Just in for lunch and wanted to report what I'm observing as boaters zip around Little Mark Island...full speed ahead! No 20% observance here! They're barely even observing the 150 ft. rule! As I said right along...the MPs should have had a boat stationed in each of the large bays. This whole thing has become nothing but a joke. It may just take a little longer for the waves to hit shore. I could practically build a whole new dock with the stuff washing up on our shore! Groan....:(

And...uh, mcdude...I wouldn't be out there in my kayak today if my life depended on it; 'cause it would. What a mess!

[mcdude]

And...uh, mcdude...I wouldn't be out there in my kayak today if my life depended on it; 'cause it would.

Thanks for the heads up, MJP. I had pretty much come to the same conclusion. Other than this glorious weather, the other nice thing I've noticed about this week-end is NO BUGS!!!

:look:

[GusMan]

You're right... I apologize for the language...
Inappropriate phrase used without thinking and
without hostile intent.

Gusman

[GusMan]

Also... I edited the offending reply out of the original message...

Not trying to hide from it... just cleaning it up.

Gusman

[Winni]

I feel so sorry for the Marine Patrol. We had so many violators, including a few PWCs doing wheelies no more than 60ft. from our shore (for hours!), I finally started calling the Marine Patrol around 1:00 pm. 4 calls later and they still didn't show and my husband started getting really fed up. I think he probably made another 5 or 6 calls. At 5:20 pm, they FINALLY showed and of course everyone had cleared out for supper (and/or because he was there) and all was (fairly) calm.

I'm telling you I'm ready to bust a gasket! I watched two kayakers have to hold on to each other not 10 ft. off my shore so they wouldn't be tipped over by the waves. When the MP got here we told him exact descriptions of the PWCs and showed him what house they were at. He came back and told us, "They have them all covered up and denied everything!" Well, of course! Then he told me he'd need me to, and you all know this bit of insanity, "Get their bow numbers!"

My word, people, what is it going to take to get some sanity into our NH government!!! I think I'm living in a parallel universe, because it just seems that no one in Concord is getting it! :eek: I'm beginning to believe the state motto is mis-stated, it might as well read, "Live Free AND die," because I feel like I must be dead...no one is listening!

[JK47]

The MP can't be everywhere at once. If people are being irresponsible and you know where their dock/house is, go over there and inform then of the no wake rule. Much of it is innocent - many people not boating from marinas have no idea about the no wake restriction. Above all, relax and enjoy the holiday. :)

[ApS]

Tolerable as Saturday was, today was awful.

You could have told me that the No-Wake Rule had been rescinded at 2PM today, and I'd have believed you. (And the exhaust-noise abatement rule, too).

I re-learned something about wakes: You can make a huge arc with your boat and the inside, more curved, wake will triple in intensity and size as it reaches the shore: One of the biggest wakes crashing against my dock today was made by a ski-boat close to the opposite shore, one-half mile away.

They constructed my dock really well in 1985, but my neighbor's much newer docks have been taking a beating. One neighbor has a dock made with mahogany decking. What that's going to look like after a month of this -- is anybody's guess.

There appears to be more debris in the water today than yesterday, and nobody's slowing to pick up any of it.

These aren't the boaters of 1984. (Or 1998, for that matter). :(

[Winni]

The MP can't be everywhere at once. If people are being irresponsible and you know where their dock/house is, go over there and inform then of the no wake rule. Much of it is innocent - many people not boating from marinas have no idea about the no wake restriction. Above all, relax and enjoy the holiday. :)

Oh, don't worry; we DID inform them and as I said, they just denied everything they were doing. We went over and had a discussion of the 3 rules they were breaking over and over and what it was doing to the wildlife and all of our docks. They still lied to the MP 4 hours later! I've been through this enough times to know the routine, believe me! There is not a thing the regular law abiding citizen/victim can do.

This isn't about the MPs. It's about Gov. Lynch making the tourist dollar more important than the safety of the wildlife, the public, and our property. He put the MPs in an impossible position. They are hugely understaffed and underpaid. It IS about Lynch not looking at the whole picture. As someone said in another post, this is worse than no ruling at all.

Clearly you must not live on the shores of one of the affected lakes or are in an area not as exposed as we are. We've all been just holding our breaths here waiting for someone to get hurt or our boats or docks to get bashed with trash or snapped off in whole or part. If you were sitting there watching your dock (which has always been very secure) being thrashed about, as well as your boat and those of your neighbors, you would not be having such a nice weekend either.

Glad you're enjoying it; I'm not and won't be until all these self-centered fools get off the water. Then we can gear up for the invasion of 500,000 +/- more people who could also care less about the preservation of the NH Lakes Region in about 2 more weeks... Zoom Zoom... It is so sad to see what has happened here in the last 20 years. And, I think we're supposed to call this "progress", right?

[hiker47]

It is with amusement and disgust that I have read some of the postings and replies. The words selfish, arrogant, and seldf centered cross my mind. I feel soory for the merchants with the poor winter and rainy weekends as well as the landowners who have property destroyed by the flooding. What I can't understand is the people who have no regard for others or their property as well as no regard for their safety or the safety of others. I have heard many times " no one owns the lake" or "we have the same rights to the lake as the propery owners". Consider this before you speed across the lake, in violation of the law, or reply in anger to others thoughts. God owns the lake because hemade it. He has given all of us the privelege of using it and enjoying it. Also, along with rights are respect and responsibility. It is a privelege to use the lake, not a right, and that privelege is constatntly earned by being respectful of others and rsponsible in followingh the rules and laws set forth.
Life is too short, Slow down, stop and smell the roses. They really doo smell very nice. YIS, doc

[foster]

mjp, it sounds to me that you might never be happy or content around people having a good time in ways that you do not approve of. so why don't you move to a nice secluded place with no one around ? you cant change other people by complaining, you can only change your own attitude.

[KonaChick]

My husband is up today doing some seasonal chores. The water is unbelievably high...he's been coming to the lake his whole life and had never seen it this high. Our dock is taking a pounding he says...not many observing the NWZ w/in 600' of shore...hell not ever our neighbors are he said. MJP I know how furstrated you are we have similar neighbors. Their favorite thing to do is let their 12 yr. old kids and friends out on the jetski's alone....they do it all the time. I've called MP so many times it's on speed dial..they've never show up. Foster it doesn't sound like to me that MJP is upset about people having a good time in ways he does not aprove of..it sounds as if all he wants is for people to have thier good times w/in the confines of the law. Funny that he's the one you pointed out in your post..and not the people who were breaking the law.

[Airwaves]

Let me preface this by saying I have looked at, but NOT read, all the posts on this topic.

One thing that keeps coming through to me, especially in some of the later posts, is the lack of response by MP to calls for violations.

During the 45/25 discussion it was pointed out by myself and a number of others that perhaps MP forces need to be expanded and a couple of ideas on how to fund the expansion were presented.

Another item that someone posted during the 45/25 debate. I don't know what has come of it but I think it's a great idea. IIRC someone posted the Laconia paper was thinking about adding the Marine Patrol to their police call list. Publishing the calls that are logged into MP and how they were handled.

It might be interesting to see what they are doing and how many boats they have on the lake during peak periods. It would give us more information about whether they are underfunded and overworked, or just an agency that needs to get their act together.

[foster]

Have you ever passed a car that was doing the speed limit? have you ever slightly rolled a stop sign? should i call the cops on you when i see it, no i dont think so. maybe a little more Live and let live, unless a person is being hurt by another then i would step in. when the wind blows are you going to call the cops on mother nature? when its all over and the water goes down, go help your neighbors rebuild their dock and live your life.

[KonaChick]

[QUOTE=foster]Have you ever passed a car that was doing the speed limit? have you ever slightly rolled a stop sign? should i call the cops on you when i see it, no i dont think so. maybe a little more Live and let live, unless a person is being hurt by another then i would step in. when the wind blows are you going to call the cops on mother nature? when its all over and the water goes down, go help your neighbors rebuild their dock and live your life.[/QUO


No the police shouldn't be called I agree with you there. Now let's take it a step further. What if I was speeding by your home 25 times a day? What if you had kids who rode their bikes..walked to friends houses on that very same road I was speeding up and down on?? Would you call the police then? I bet you would. That's how I feel. You ride by my home at ungodly speeds and put my family or property in danger...I'm going to call the police.

[HotDog]

KonaChick,
i know what your saying but speeding by a house in a car is a lot different then speeding by your house on a boat, do you swim across the lake more then 60' away from your house? prob. not and if you are then you shouldn't, if someone comes closer to your house will swiming then you should call but, that aren't damaging anyone.

[Tir Na Nog]

I just got back to the Boston after a weekend up at the Lake. We did get out on the boat both Saturday and Sunday. We boat out of Wolfeboro. I saw very few boats following the No Wake rule. Nor did it seem to me that anyone at Goodhue hawkins was advising boaters of the rule. Saturday was a little windy and there were not as many boats out when we were at around 4, but even in Wolfeboro Bay the boats were popping right up to speed and pushing a wake as soon as they got away from the docks. On Sunday, there were may more boats out and even less compliance. We motored over to Alton Bay and as we came to the area of Echo Point (where I think it would be tough to keep 600 feet from either shore) we saw all of these boats coming out at headway speed and I thought at least there the word was out. A little further in the Bay I saw why. There was a MP boat cruising out. CLearly noncompliance was not just a lack of knowledge. I saw one boat passing all the others at headway speed, probably not even following the 150 foot rule as to other boats, and he immediately powered down when he saw the MP boat, which I had hoped would be pulling him over. There seems very limited enforcement of the rules. Has NH ever considered something similar to the Coast Guard Auxillary to help out on the lake? Auxillary volunteers have been very helpful to the Coasties with little expense as they are volunteers.

[Dave R]

Perhaps a silly question, but if folks are worried about their docks taking such a beating, why not just pull them out until the water goes down?

[ApS]

I just got back to the Boston after a weekend up at the Lake. We did get out on the boat both Saturday and Sunday. We boat out of Wolfeboro. I saw very few boats following the No Wake rule. Nor did it seem to me that anyone at Goodhue hawkins was advising boaters of the rule. Saturday was a little windy and there were not as many boats out when we were at around 4, but even in Wolfeboro Bay the boats were popping right up to speed and pushing a wake as soon as they got away from the docks. On Sunday, there were may more boats out and even less compliance. We motored over to Alton Bay and as we came to the area of Echo Point (where I think it would be tough to keep 600 feet from either shore) we saw all of these boats coming out at headway speed and I thought at least there the word was out. A little further in the Bay I saw why. There was a MP boat cruising out. CLearly noncompliance was not just a lack of knowledge. I saw one boat passing all the others at headway speed, probably not even following the 150 foot rule as to other boats, and he immediately powered down when he saw the MP boat, which I had hoped would be pulling him over. There seems very limited enforcement of the rules. Has NH ever considered something similar to the Coast Guard Auxiliary to help out on the lake? Auxiliary volunteers have been very helpful to the Coasties with little expense as they are volunteers.
Except for Goodhue, which I didn't see, your observations match mine. :look:

Sunday was somewhat windier than today and Saturday, and did a better job of "covering up the evidence". (Many boats could spread a big wake and go faster+ than headway). Today was calm with somewhat better compliance, but full of exhaust >>koff<< >>koff << fumes , like most calm weekend days.

It seems that the 600' rule was neglectful of those dock owners without a breakwater which, in my neighborhood, is about 95% (without breakwaters). Remember,
"The 600' Rule Was a Compromise of Competing Interests", which were tourism and...and...and...I forgot the other one. http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7629/stupid17dq.gif

There was a Marine Patrol Auxiliary but was disbanded, according to a 2002 letter written to the Granite State News following a hit&run fatality. The writer, from Tuftonbboro, appeared upset that the MP Auxiliary's work—restricted to a floating advisory role—went under-appreciated.

BTW: Today offered an opportunity to put out water-filled garbage cans on the "high" side of my dock that had developed from last week's heavy winds and high water. (http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showpost.php?p=32169&postcount=5) Thanks mostly to a boat towing a tube, the affected dock end-piling appears to have nearly "settled back in"!

(Now if the governor can just raise the lake about another 4 inches, I should be able to get it perfectly level). ;)

[Island Life]

I keep my boat at Fay's and I didn't see any signs announcing the no-wake rule. If I hadn't read about it here, I wouldn't have known. Saw MP several times but they weren't enforcing the no-wake rule.

Three or four sections of different docks have washed up on my beach. Two of them look to be of standard size and I thought it might be a good idea to drop them off someplace where they can be claimed by people looking to replace the sections they've lost. Any ideas about where I could leave them?

[Winni]

mjp, it sounds to me that you might never be happy or content around people having a good time in ways that you do not approve of. so why don't you move to a nice secluded place with no one around ? you cant change other people by complaining, you can only change your own attitude.

I did move to a place like that almost 20 years ago, but then people like you showed up. Your avatar says it all...then there's mine...

[KonaChick]

KonaChick,
i know what your saying but speeding by a house in a car is a lot different then speeding by your house on a boat, do you swim across the lake more then 60' away from your house? prob. not and if you are then you shouldn't, if someone comes closer to your house will swiming then you should call but, that aren't damaging anyone.

Hotdog this is all in reference to our property being damaged by large wakes because of the high water.....I'm saying that the reference to sliding through a stop sign or someone passing me on the highway speeding isn't a good one because the large wakes rolling across my beach and dock due to boats not obeying the law ARE doing damage...it's NOT as trivial as the comparison of sliding through a stop sign or someone passing you on the highway over the speed limit. People just aren't getting it. :confused:

[DRH]

Perhaps a silly question, but if folks are worried about their docks taking such a beating, why not just pull them out until the water goes down?A great many docks on the lake are permanent, installed either on pilings driven down into the lake bottom or on cribs which contain large rocks to secure the dock to the lake bottom. Only "seasonal" docks can be raised up out of the water.

[Woodsy]

Nobody seems to get that there are competing interests...

Bottom line is that 600' was a reasonable compromise. As I predicted, nobody is really happy with it. I really don't think that the word got out as well as it should have. That might have been somewhat intentional. We do need the tourist $$$ to help pay for all of the flood damage.

I did witness an MP boat stationed in Paugus Bay for most of the day Sat & Sun. He was pretty busy "informing" people of the NWZ. Paugus was pretty calm...

Woodsy

[Dave R]

A great many docks on the lake are permanent, installed either on pilings driven down into the lake bottom or on cribs which contain large rocks to secure the dock to the lake bottom. Only "seasonal" docks can be raised up out of the water.

I'd think any dock built to survive ice would have an easy time with water and would not be in danger. If not, perhaps a re-design is in order. I doubt this'll be the last flood.

This a great opportunity for folks to fix weaknesses in design and implementation. Seems to me, that would a better way to spend time than fretting about wakes. If folks really care about maintaining their property in it's current state, they should do what is necessary to prevent it from changing.

[B R]

Wow.... I never knew it was up to certain people to decide what is foolish or not when it comes other people's hard earned vacation dollars.

Talk about arrogance.....

Gusman



Gusman, I hope you're not talking about me. It has nothing to do with arrogance. For those of you who know me, you know I don't have an arrogant bone in my body.

All I'm saying is that the Lakes Region has a lot to offer beside the lake itself.

This "the lake has a no wake zone...whaahhhh.....I'm gonna go to the Cape instead....whaahhhh....." is getting a little old.

Grow up.


Grow Up? I think you need to grow up a bit yourself.

Maybe it was a knee jerk reaction; but I'd been trying to find out the status of the lake all week, and all we got was "there's nothing wrong up here, come on up". I boat all the way down Paugus Bay. That makes going anywhere with at no wake a 2 hour trip, one way. Sorry, that's not boating to me (me i said, your opinion may differ).

I made one comment that we were going somewhere else, and you've decided to attack me. Maybe it was a little whiney, but I wasn't happy with how the information was getting out. I vented. I know that's something new to this site, sorry i offended/bothered you.

We go up every weekend and I consistently put 150 hours on my boat each year. We save those non boating days for bad weather weekends. No need to start that now (again, my opinion).

[jkjoshuatree]

Grow Up? I think you need to grow up a bit yourself.

Maybe it was a knee jerk reaction; but I'd been trying to find out the status of the lake all week, and all we got was "there's nothing wrong up here, come on up". I boat all the way down Paugus Bay. That makes going anywhere with at no wake a 2 hour trip, one way. Sorry, that's not boating to me (me i said, your opinion may differ).

I made one comment that we were going somewhere else, and you've decided to attack me. Maybe it was a little whiney, but I wasn't happy with how the information was getting out. I vented. I know that's something new to this site, sorry i offended/bothered you.

We go up every weekend and I consistently put 150 hours on my boat each year. We save those non boating days for bad weather weekends. No need to start that now (again, my opinion).All you need to do is go back and look at my original post. It just talks about all of the other things Winnipesaukee and the Lakes Region has to offer besides actually being on the lake.

It benefits everyone when people are up there for a long holiday weekend.

When people say they're going to go somewhere else because they can't be "zipping" around the lake, I get a little defensive and for that I apologize.

I love being on the water as much as the next guy, but I'd rather be at Winni (NWZ or not) than any where else on earth. And I've been to some pretty amazing places.

[Winni]

I'd think any dock built to survive ice would have an easy time with water and would not be in danger. If not, perhaps a re-design is in order. I doubt this'll be the last flood.

Most people who have permanent docks have winter circulators. These are simply machines that keep the water moving, do no harm to the environment, and keep ice from forming around these docks in winter. Even these are no match for Mother Nature, however. Even the most sturdily built dock with multiple circulators cannot battle against ice floes. A few years back one of my neighbors, who has a very sturdy dock and circulators, stood there and watched a big chuck of ice during ice-out take away 1/2 his u-dock in seconds. That was over $5,000 in damage in a blink of an eye. There is simply nothing anyone can do when nature takes its course. So, I wish people would stop trying to blame shore owners and scold them for not having sturdy docks.

As for floods and waves... Like ice, we can't control or predict flooding. No one ever saw this perhaps-once-in-a-lifetime type of situation coming, not even the weathermen. We do the best we can with the money we have to keep our docks from letting go and causing public danger. No one could predict the kinds of beatings our docks would take last fall and now again this spring. But, the thing is, there are NO MACHINES that can stop wave action, and this CAN BE CONTROLLED by people, so it should have been.

So, please stop criticizing us and realize we are as much concerned about public safety and danger to wildlife as we are about our own property damage, maybe even more. A dock can be rebuilt, but a child getting hurt while tubing (yes, they did it in the fruit salad of debris right in front of our house on Sunday) or a loon nest with eggs destroyed just so someone can get an adrenaline rush, is unthinkable.

Hope this is the last time I have to reiterate this...:rolleye1:

[LIforrelaxin]

MJP, very good post....you are right on with your comments.......

Now I am new here and trying not to blast people.....and of course at the momment can't even tell you who made the comment....but someone in this thread, posed the question of why not just take a seasonal dock out. Well for those that have never put a dock in or out let me just say....it is not that easy. I would have loved to have taken my dock out....as welll as my nieghbors (my aunt and uncles) but....I can't do it be myself....I have to get help to help me, which is usually not a problem....but to ask someone to give up thier weekend to help me.....and then be left to ask the same person to help me a few weeks later....come on...

For a situation that happens so seldom....people should just grow up....and realize that once or twice in thier lives they may not be able to what they want when they want..............

[Kevin C]

I have stayed off the lake for the last couple of weekends (which has been killing me as I have yet to be out on the lake this year) in an effort to respect the lakefront owners situation as well as the environmental impact, not to mention the floating debris around the lake. I found the following statement from Bizer about the lake:

The flow of water leaving Lake Winnipesaukee at the Lakeport Dam is measured in cubic feet per second. At near full blast, the damn can release 1.24 billion gallons of water per day, or about enough water to lower the level of Lake Winnipesaukee just one inch. -Bizer

Can anyone tell me what the status of the outflow is presently and what the estimate is for the lake to be at an acceptable level so that normal boating operations can resume? I know that the outflow from the lake has to be respectful of those downstream.:confused:

[Mee-n-Mac]

{snip} Can anyone tell me what the status of the outflow is presently and what the estimate is for the lake to be at an acceptable level so that normal boating operations can resume? I know that the outflow from the lake has to be respectful of those downstream.:confused:

The discharge rate for the Lakeport dam can be found here
http://www.des.state.nh.us/RTi_Home/station_information_display.asp?ID=LKPN3&NAME=Lakeport+Dam

while the hour by hour lake level can be found here
http://www.des.state.nh.us/RTi_Home/station_information_display.asp?ID=WEIN3&NAME=Lake+Winnipesaukee

As to when the lake is low enough to be "normal" ... good question and I was just wondering that myself. Looking at Bizer's graph I'd say that when the lake drops about another 6" it would be in the range of normal levels. Kinda hard to argue for NWS at that point. Personally I'll be very happy when it drops 6". Anyone know what the level was when the NWZ was lifted in '98 ? I guess I could look it up ....

On another note LG had suggested an automatic NWZ anytime the lake was above 505' so perhaps another 0.2' might be sufficient ?


EDIT : ooops that's a 1/2 ft marking on Bizer's chart so make that 6" not 12".

[Winni]

Bottom line is that 600' was a reasonable compromise.

Fact: This was not a compromise. Compromise was not possible in this issue. 150 ft., 600 ft., 800 ft...it doesn't matter. $ won; they were, in the end, all that mattered.

Physics 101: You put your finger in a bowl of water; stir it around, and the "waves" will hit the edge of the bowl. You DO NOT put your finger in the water; you DO NOT stir it around, and the waves (except those produced by nature itself) will NOT hit the edge of the bowl. (p.s. It doesn't matter where you put your finger in the bowl.)

You might want to reread your tag line. :rolleye1:

[Kevin C]

Thanks Mee-n-Mac for the websites and your reply.....now bookmarked for future reference.

[Winni]

Have any of you noticed not one word has been said in these forums, at least that I've seen, about what this weekend is really about? It is especially important today, May 30th, the original "Memorial Day". We are all so busy arguing and protecting our own "beliefs" that no one has bothered to say a word about what we should really be worrying about...

...that no more soldiers must die or be injured. I lived through the Vietnam era and I lost people I went to school with. I watch the news every day. We are all missing the most important point here:

Thank you, with the greatest pride and sincerity, to all who are currently in uniform serving us and to those who have passed and served us.

[Dave R]

Most people who have permanent docks have winter circulators. These are simply machines that keep the water moving, do no harm to the environment, and keep ice from forming around these docks in winter. Even these are no match for Mother Nature, however. Even the most sturdily built dock with multiple circulators cannot battle against ice floes. A few years back one of my neighbors, who has a very sturdy dock and circulators, stood there and watched a big chuck of ice during ice-out take away 1/2 his u-dock in seconds. That was over $5,000 in damage in a blink of an eye. There is simply nothing anyone can do when nature takes its course. So, I wish people would stop trying to blame shore owners and scold them for not having sturdy docks.

As for floods and waves... Like ice, we can't control or predict flooding. No one ever saw this perhaps-once-in-a-lifetime type of situation coming, not even the weathermen. We do the best we can with the money we have to keep our docks from letting go and causing public danger. No one could predict the kinds of beatings our docks would take last fall and now again this spring. But, the thing is, there are NO MACHINES that can stop wave action, and this CAN BE CONTROLLED by people, so it should have been.

So, please stop criticizing us and realize we are as much concerned about public safety and danger to wildlife as we are about our own property damage, maybe even more. A dock can be rebuilt, but a child getting hurt while tubing (yes, they did it in the fruit salad of debris right in front of our house on Sunday) or a loon nest with eggs destroyed just so someone can get an adrenaline rush, is unthinkable.

Hope this is the last time I have to reiterate this...:rolleye1:

You can roll your eyes at me all you want but if you continually sustain damage to you dock you really ought to consider making it removable. Same for your neighbor unless they have $5000 to throw away every few years. I spend a lot of time on another lake and every year we put the dock in and take the dock out. The dock has survived for 18 years and has plenty of life left. I doubt the 24'x6' main dock plus the 4'x8' extension cost more than $3000 to build, including the wheels on which it rolls (which make it easily removeable). It can be put in and taken out by one person and uses nothing but "off the shelf" hardware that's widely available around the lake. It's also modular and can be expanded in size with no added difficulty. I am not criticizing or scolding you, just trying to offer a suggestion.

I was not out there tubing in the debris or making wakes at your place this weekend.

If you are expecting people to behave themselves out of the goodness in their hearts, you are bound for disappointment. Most people are not very considerate. You can complain about people making wakes on this forum and call the MP forever and I can assure you the wakes and erosion will continue as always. Instead of complaining, I suggest doing something to help yourself. You are blessed with the luxury of living in one of the most beuatiful places on this earth, yet you come here looking for sympathy when you have to deal with some of the occasional downsides of lake living. I'll save my sympathy for folks that dealt with "real" flooding issues; folks in NH/MA whose homes were destroyed by the recent rains, folks who survived the recent tsunami, or the Hurricane survivors down south.

[Dave R]

MJP, very good post....you are right on with your comments.......

Now I am new here and trying not to blast people.....and of course at the momment can't even tell you who made the comment....but someone in this thread, posed the question of why not just take a seasonal dock out. Well for those that have never put a dock in or out let me just say....it is not that easy. I would have loved to have taken my dock out....as welll as my nieghbors (my aunt and uncles) but....I can't do it be myself....I have to get help to help me, which is usually not a problem....but to ask someone to give up thier weekend to help me.....and then be left to ask the same person to help me a few weeks later....come on...

For a situation that happens so seldom....people should just grow up....and realize that once or twice in thier lives they may not be able to what they want when they want..............

That was me that suggested taking the dock out. Just trying to be realistic. If you want to watch your property get wrecked for three days instead of doing something about it, it's certainly your prerogative. I honestly hope the damage was minimal. I didn't cause any of it, I wasn't there.

[Winni]

I was not out there tubing in the debris or making wakes at your place this weekend.

If you are expecting people to behave themselves out of the goodness in their hearts, you are bound for disappointment. Most people are not very considerate.
I'll save my sympathy

So, what is the point here?

I never accused you of tubing in front of my house...where did you get that idea from? Wow! Talk about mis-reading!

How naive do you think I am? I am so discouraged about people having "goodness in their hearts" I could throw up. Just look at what happened with HB162! But, that doesn't mean I'm going to stop trying to get people to understand the harm they do to nature and others. To stop would be to give up, and I'm betting you already figured out I'm not one to give up easily.

I never once asked for your or anyone else's sympathy. I asked for your, and everyone else's understanding and consideration of the situation and said over and over it was not just about personal property, but more importantly about public safety and the preservation of wildlife and the natural surroundings...or did you just conveniently choose to skip that part in my postings?

Joke's on you: I do not have a permanent dock! In fact, I never said in any of my postings that I did. My neighbors, who I was also concerned about, do. In fact, all we have and all that was bouncing around, was the deck at the water's edge we connect our removable dock to. We can't remove the extension; that part is permanent and could be easily replaced, though it could have been a hazard in the water had it let loose. What saved it was that our removable dock sections and all the metal poles it uses were piled on top of that section. The waves were so heavy, however, even with all that weight...and it is A LOT...the extension, which is well set in rocks and land, was still bouncing around.

Put your "sympathy" wherever you want. That doesn't make hurting others, including wildlife and people who aren't smart enough to stay off the Lake when there is an unusual situation like this, right. Who cares where you put your sympathy? I do care where you put your brain, however.

I'm so sick of this. I don't want to keep going around this. If people chose to be naive about reality then just go ahead and be so; I'm not foolish enough to think I can change everyone, but if I can just get even one person to stop and take a second look at the harm they might be doing at any time they choose to use the Lake, then I've accomplished something. Whether others judge my writing to be worthwhile or not, I really don't care. If I'm negatively judged, so what; getting kudos is not why I write. If you actually care about the world, then, well, "Thanks". If you don't, just remember that old phrase, "What goes around, comes around."

Furthermore, if you do care about New Hampshire, then do something; don't just talk. I suggest joining the Forest Society, the NH Lakes Association, WinnFABS, anything that actually makes a difference. Yes, I do feel sorry for the hurricane victims and people all over the world who suffer, but I live here, so I'm trying to do something about here.

[Misty Blue]

Here is a trick that I use.

When the Lake is high and waves threaten the decking on my dock I pull the canoe on to the dock and fill it and some stragically placed trash cans with water. They hold the dock down and are easy to empty when the Lake returns to normal.

I do this for my out of state neighbors as well, except for the guy four doors down who doesn't like my dog. He crossed a line!

[Island Girl]

Below are some threads from past years on the old forum re: 1998 and 1994.

If I read correctly, the No-Wake in 1998 was lifted on July 11 which according to Bizer's chart was about 4.75. (Please correct me if I am wrong.)

The lake will drop 1.3 inches per day at 2550 outflow, also according to Bizer. It looks like it is dropping nicely, now at 5.14. (My dock is probably not underwater anymore!) Flow at 8 am this morning was 2486.

If I do the math correctly (I have never been known for that) we need .39 less to get to 4.75... approximately 5 inches, about 4 days.. I have not accounted for the inflow from the watershed. I believe that .08 is one inch of lake level.(Again correct my math. I won't be offended)

Thanks Bizer for the daily chart update (and all that you do)... it is most helpful.

Links to statistics are on the Wave and Weather Watch page at www.rattlesnakecam.com/watch.htm (http://www.rattlesnakecam.com/watch.htm).

IG :coolsm:

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforum/archive1.cgi?noframes;read=63006
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforum/archive1.cgi?noframes;read=12126
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforum/archive1.cgi?noframes;read=12133
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforum/archive1.cgi?noframes;read=12171
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforum/archive1.cgi?noframes;read=8041
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforum/archive1.cgi?noframes;read=8709

[Islander2]

All this does not take into consideration the 3 inches, and possibly up to 5 inches, as predicted by WMUR, of rain predicted between now and Sunday morning. Let hope we don't get that much.

[Weirs guy]

I may have missed it somewhere here, but is there any news on changing to a lake wide NWZ? If not I’d realy like to push for one, because either my opinion of 600’ is different from most peoples, or the MP’s realy aren’t interested in enforcing the rule, but either way it did not work.

[KonaChick]

Dave R your rationale doesn't make sense to me. The reason why my husband and I are able to afford this "luxury" is because we have worked hard and made some inelligent business decesions. I won't even go into the hours, days, years that my husband spent building up his business. This wasn't handed to us on a silver platter. Of course we want to protect our assets and more importantly the asset of Lake Winnipesaukee itself. You make it seem trivial that we as waterfront homeowners want to make sure our beloved land and the land surrounding our precious Lake Winnipesaukee is protected. THIS IS OUR HOME!!! You're portraying us as rich bluebloods who are complaining that the "commonfolk" are ruining our martini time. IT JUST AIN'T SO!!! :rolleye1:

[jrc]

Konachick,
I don't think Dave R, I, or anyone said that you or the other lake front owners shouldn't be able to do everything in your power to protect your investment, whether you earned it or inherited it. That power includes petitioning the government to make the whole lake a no wake zone and cajoling boat operators to voluntarily not make a wake. You of course, have every right to do those things.

I just don't think that was the only thing or the best thing the lake owners could do to prevent property damage from this event and future events.

[Dave R]

Dave R your rationale doesn't make sense to me. The reason why my husband and I are able to afford this "luxury" is because we have worked hard and made some inelligent business decesions. I won't even go into the hours, days, years that my husband spent building up his business. This wasn't handed to us on a silver platter. Of course we want to protect our assets and more importantly the asset of Lake Winnipesaukee itself. You make it seem trivial that we as waterfront homeowners want to make sure our beloved land and the land surrounding our precious Lake Winnipesaukee is protected. THIS IS OUR HOME!!! You're portraying us as rich bluebloods who are complaining that the "commonfolk" are ruining our martini time. IT JUST AIN'T SO!!! :rolleye1:

I am certain I never stated or inferred that lake front land owners are "rich blue bloods" etc. I am not jealous of land owners, I am happy for those that choose this lifestyle and have worked hard for it AND those that did not have to work for it. I have also always respected the rights folks have as landowners. To state, as I did, that someone is "blessed with the luxury of living in one of the most beautiful parts of the planet" does not mean I'm jealous or feel this person is a snob. I thought it sounded pretty nice, actually. That said, I suppose if you are not very religious, you could reasonably translate "blessed" into something less friendly like "entitled", but that is not at all what I meant.

[Dave R]

So, what is the point here?

I never accused you of tubing in front of my house...where did you get that idea from? Wow! Talk about mis-reading!

How naive do you think I am? I am so discouraged about people having "goodness in their hearts" I could throw up. Just look at what happened with HB162! But, that doesn't mean I'm going to stop trying to get people to understand the harm they do to nature and others. To stop would be to give up, and I'm betting you already figured out I'm not one to give up easily.

I never once asked for your or anyone else's sympathy. I asked for your, and everyone else's understanding and consideration of the situation and said over and over it was not just about personal property, but more importantly about public safety and the preservation of wildlife and the natural surroundings...or did you just conveniently choose to skip that part in my postings?

Joke's on you: I do not have a permanent dock! In fact, I never said in any of my postings that I did. My neighbors, who I was also concerned about, do. In fact, all we have and all that was bouncing around, was the deck at the water's edge we connect our removable dock to. We can't remove the extension; that part is permanent and could be easily replaced, though it could have been a hazard in the water had it let loose. What saved it was that our removable dock sections and all the metal poles it uses were piled on top of that section. The waves were so heavy, however, even with all that weight...and it is A LOT...the extension, which is well set in rocks and land, was still bouncing around.

Put your "sympathy" wherever you want. That doesn't make hurting others, including wildlife and people who aren't smart enough to stay off the Lake when there is an unusual situation like this, right. Who cares where you put your sympathy? I do care where you put your brain, however.

I'm so sick of this. I don't want to keep going around this. If people chose to be naive about reality then just go ahead and be so; I'm not foolish enough to think I can change everyone, but if I can just get even one person to stop and take a second look at the harm they might be doing at any time they choose to use the Lake, then I've accomplished something. Whether others judge my writing to be worthwhile or not, I really don't care. If I'm negatively judged, so what; getting kudos is not why I write. If you actually care about the world, then, well, "Thanks". If you don't, just remember that old phrase, "What goes around, comes around."

Furthermore, if you do care about New Hampshire, then do something; don't just talk. I suggest joining the Forest Society, the NH Lakes Association, WinnFABS, anything that actually makes a difference. Yes, I do feel sorry for the hurricane victims and people all over the world who suffer, but I live here, so I'm trying to do something about here.

The sole point of my posts was to point out the absurdity of whining on the internet instead of protecting one's property. Posting on here about how inconsiderate people are, how greedy the politicians are, and how unresponsive the MP is, does absolutely nothing to help preserve anyone's property or the health of the lake. I THINK A LAKEWIDE NWZ is a good idea right now. But it did not happen so I'm trying to be realistic and offer a solution.

Tell me more about what you are trying to do here. I see lots of empty words and little action. As a lake front land owner, you have vastly more power to stop erosion than I do. What have you done?

Joke's on me huh? I don't think smashed up docks are funny. Maybe irresponsible, but not funny.

Perhaps you missed the news, WinnFABS actually failed to make a difference. HB162 did not pass, but I'm not really sure what that failed bill has to do with this discussion. As far as I know, there have been no high speed accidents during the flooding.

I never felt you were accusing me of making wakes or tubing in front of your house. Just pointing out that you need not condsider me the same type of person that would do that just because you disagree with my thoughts on what constitutes reasonable actions to take to prevent erosion. You have my understanding and consideration. I am not part of the problem.

Perhaps nothing can be done to help during this flood. For those that suffer damage now, I ask: What are your plans to prevent the same type of damage 7 or so years from now when the next flood happens? Whining 7 years from now will have the same effect then as it has now.

[KonaChick]

Dave R sorry but I think that's exactly what you were implying. Having our docks and land destroyed isn't an occassional "downside" to lake living. When you say that I think of the things that truly are an occassional downside to owning on the big lake...traffic coming up on Fridays, guests that stay too long, mice in the house, cleaning the beach up, ignorant boaters. Theses are all examples of the occassional downside we experience up at the lake. Having our docks destroyed, erosion of our beaches, wildlife nests on our property destroyed because of ignorant boaters who refuse to follow the law are more than a "downside", they are an outrage. We don't need your sympathy we need compliance of the law and some common sense both of which were in short supply this holiday weekend.

[Winni]

Thank you, KonaChick. As for DaveR, I am just giving up. He will never get it so it's not worth any more of my effort. Have a nice life, Dave, just leave the rest of us alone. Getting you to understand is a fruitless endeavor.

[Moultonborolifeguard]

Most people who have permanent docks have winter circulators. These are simply machines that keep the water moving, do no harm to the environment, and keep ice from forming around these docks in winter. Even these are no match for Mother Nature, however. Even the most sturdily built dock with multiple circulators cannot battle against ice floes. A few years back one of my neighbors, who has a very sturdy dock and circulators, stood there and watched a big chuck of ice during ice-out take away 1/2 his u-dock in seconds. That was over $5,000 in damage in a blink of an eye. There is simply nothing anyone can do when nature takes its course. So, I wish people would stop trying to blame shore owners and scold them for not having sturdy docks.

As for floods and waves... Like ice, we can't control or predict flooding. No one ever saw this perhaps-once-in-a-lifetime type of situation coming, not even the weathermen. We do the best we can with the money we have to keep our docks from letting go and causing public danger. No one could predict the kinds of beatings our docks would take last fall and now again this spring. But, the thing is, there are NO MACHINES that can stop wave action, and this CAN BE CONTROLLED by people, so it should have been.

So, please stop criticizing us and realize we are as much concerned about public safety and danger to wildlife as we are about our own property damage, maybe even more. A dock can be rebuilt, but a child getting hurt while tubing (yes, they did it in the fruit salad of debris right in front of our house on Sunday) or a loon nest with eggs destroyed just so someone can get an adrenaline rush, is unthinkable.

Hope this is the last time I have to reiterate this...:rolleye1:


Your actually wrong about the docks with the circulators. My dock doesn't have any circulator near it during the winter. It uses a machine to stop wave action. Its called a break water. It just gets iced up completely every year. In the last 7 years we've had one 2x6 break because of the ice, and we are on the broads. Also I would maintain that peoples children have a lot better chance of getting hurt tubing from falling off going to fast, hitting bouys or other objects during normal conditions than debris caused by the high water. If your really worried about the danger than maybe we should just ban all water activities all together according to you just to be safe. Also those PWCs that were bothing you so much put out little to no wake. They almost certainly put out less wake than a bigger boat out at 600 feet. I would know I own and use one. I virtually garuntee, that you hate them when they are over 150' from shore during any normal summer if they are in front of your house. Instead of haivng the government spend more of my tax money trying to control people via MP why don't you just relax. The water level is plummeting rapidly now and in a few days with a little wind the water will be much lower and much less debris free. O well to bad looks like there'll be no NWZ this summer. :D

[Dave R]

Dave R sorry but I think that's exactly what you were implying. Having our docks and land destroyed isn't an occassional "downside" to lake living. When you say that I think of the things that truly are an occassional downside to owning on the big lake...traffic coming up on Fridays, guests that stay too long, mice in the house, cleaning the beach up, ignorant boaters. Theses are all examples of the occassional downside we experience up at the lake. Having our docks destroyed, erosion of our beaches, wildlife nests on our property destroyed because of ignorant boaters who refuse to follow the law are more than a "downside", they are an outrage. We don't need your sympathy we need compliance of the law and some common sense both of which were in short supply this holiday weekend.

I think you may have taken a well-deserved sarcastic response to MJP as an attack on all land owners by me. It was not. Don't flatter yourself, you are not envied as much as you think.

Lets put my "occasional downside" comment back in perspective. The context in which it was written was thus: Compared to folks losing homes, loved ones, and lives to hurricanes, floods and tsunamis, your erosion and dock problems are indeed just an occasional downside of choosing to live next to water. I know it probably seems like the end of the world when your dock gets busted up, but it's nothing that cannot be repaired and things could be vastly worse. If you were truly responsible, you would have already been prepared for the high water and the dock would be just fine.

If you truly cared about wildlife on the lake, you'd NEVER own a house on the lake. That land of yours was stolen from those poor furry little animals who can no longer call it home and are probably very, very sad every time they think about it. Especially the cute ones becuase somehow, I doubt snapping turtles feel sadness. A true nature lover would turn the place into a human-free animal sanctuary. Please, let us know how that turns out.

If in this context, you still think your situation is an "outrage", give FEMA a call. Maybe they will declare your property a distaster area and bail you out.

[Weirs guy]

Instead of haivng the government spend more of my tax money trying to control people via MP why don't you just relax.

We can't relax if individuals such as yourself are swamping our beaches with your selfish actions. I mean, come on, why is it so hard to slow down for a few days or weeks if it helps everyone enjoy themselves? I really don't care if you boat or don't, your attitude is the problem, along with a lot of others here. I sided with the go fast crowd on HB162, but this weekends actions have started to change my mind.

You expect us to put up with all the inconvenience but can’t be bothered to do anything yourselves. We could build walls, sandbag, or the like. But you could slow down FOR A WEEKEND! I’m not some tree hugger, or environmental nazi, just a guy who wants to live and let live. But I’m also not going to let somebody else’s good time ruin mine.

So the next time one of you decides to go blowing past my beach ignoring the 600' NWZ ask yourself this question, if I’m “too lazy” to build a wall or put up sandbags, am I too lazy to pull all the debris out of the water I’ve found on my beach? Bet that slows you down. If not then stop by and we can discuss it in person, I've been flagging down people all week to no avail and maybe we can share our points of view.

[Woodsy]

Folks..

Its getting a bit contentious here, and there is no need for it. Everybody needs to look at the BIG picture, not just thier particular slice of it.

The reality of the situation is that Lake Winnipesaukee is THE biggest economic engine for NH. There has to be a balance between the interests of the waterfront property owners, businesses, and the general public. Unfortunately you cannot please everyone. Revenues are down due to a lackluster winter tourist season especially around Lake Winnipesaukee and we all have to pay for the flood damage down in southern NH. The $$$ have to come from somewhere. The powers that be decided that it was not in the best interests of the state (general public) to mess with the economic engine that is Lake Winnipesaukee, a compromise was reached and thus we have a 600' NWZ.

I think the 600' NWZ was a fair compromise... had this event occured later in the season when boat traffic is much heavier, say after the kids were out of school, I have no doubt that it would have been a lake-wide NWZ.

I do sympathize with the property owners whose property is seeing some erosion and whose docks are getting bashed a bit because of the high water & boat traffic. You guys & gals are getting thrown under the bus, no doubt about it. However, you are a very small but vocal percentage of the general population, with many of you citizens of other states. The $$$ have to come from somewhere to make up the revenue shortfall. Would you like to see an increase in your property tax to cover this shortfall? If the tax was temporary, say it only went up another $1 per thousand for 1 year? I doubt anyone will would seriously entertain that idea. So where is the money supposed to come from to make up the shortfall and pay for the flooding? Does someone have any better ideas?

Tourism drives the NH Economy. You start messing around with that and pretty soon some dock damage & shoreline erosion will be the least of your problems.

The Dam Operators in Lakeport are draining the lake as quickly as possible. In a week or so all will be close to normal.

Woodsy

PS: For the record I saw very few performance boats out this weekend. It seemed to be moslty fish boats and runabouts. I did see a few big cruisers. At Braun Bay on saturday it was all cruisers & runabouts with only 5-6 performance boats. The docking at the NASWA was similar.

[KonaChick]

I think you may have taken a well-deserved sarcastic response to MJP as an attack on all land owners by me. It was not. Don't flatter yourself, you are not envied as much as you think.

Lets put my "occasional downside" comment back in perspective. The context in which it was written was thus: Compared to folks losing homes, loved ones, and lives to hurricanes, floods and tsunamis, your erosion and dock problems are indeed just an occasional downside of choosing to live next to water. I know it probably seems like the end of the world when your dock gets busted up, but it's nothing that cannot be repaired and things could be vastly worse. If you were truly responsible, you would have already been prepared for the high water and the dock would be just fine.

If you truly cared about wildlife on the lake, you'd NEVER own a house on the lake. That land of yours was stolen from those poor furry little animals who can no longer call it home and are probably very, very sad every time they think about it. Especially the cute ones becuase somehow, I doubt snapping turtles feel sadness. A true nature lover would turn the place into a human-free animal sanctuary. Please, let us know how that turns out.

If in this context, you still think your situation is an "outrage", give FEMA a call. Maybe they will declare your property a distaster area and bail you out.


Everytime you reply your true self shines through like a beacon. :D

[Moultonborolifeguard]

We can't relax if individuals such as yourself are swamping our beaches with your selfish actions. I mean, come on, why is it so hard to slow down for a few days or weeks if it helps everyone enjoy themselves? I really don't care if you boat or don't, your attitude is the problem, along with a lot of others here. I sided with the go fast crowd on HB162, but this weekends actions have started to change my mind.

You expect us to put up with all the inconvenience but can’t be bothered to do anything yourselves. We could build walls, sandbag, or the like. But you could slow down FOR A WEEKEND! I’m not some tree hugger, or environmental nazi, just a guy who wants to live and let live. But I’m also not going to let somebody else’s good time ruin mine.

So the next time one of you decides to go blowing past my beach ignoring the 600' NWZ ask yourself this question, if I’m “too lazy” to build a wall or put up sandbags, am I too lazy to pull all the debris out of the water I’ve found on my beach? Bet that slows you down. If not then stop by and we can discuss it in person, I've been flagging down people all week to no avail and maybe we can share our points of view.

Actually this summer I haven't been boating much at all yet, and certainly haven't broken any rules or swamped anyones property. I was arguing more against the attitude presented by some of the people here. I have no problem staying far away from shore or going slower. I can understand people don't want their property wrecked. I do have a problem with people who basiclly want a NWZ as an excuse for not having boat traffic in front of their house as seems to be evident in a number of people here.

[codeman671]

Your actually wrong about the docks with the circulators. My dock doesn't have any circulator near it during the winter. It uses a machine to stop wave action. Its called a break water.

Breakwaters are only used in certain instances, depending on the direction you are facing and the distance of open, unobstructed water. Many docks on the lake use circulators, I would dare say that there are more permanent docks on the lake without breakwaters than with. For instance where we are located there are only a few breakwaters on the side of Mark facing Governer's but most of the island has permament docks using circulators.

Some even use circulators with breakwaters. Breakwaters these days are getting harder and harder to permit through DES.

[codeman671]

PS: For the record I saw very few performance boats out this weekend. It seemed to be moslty fish boats and runabouts. I did see a few big cruisers. At Braun Bay on saturday it was all cruisers & runabouts with only 5-6 performance boats. The docking at the NASWA was similar.

I second that. Most of the boats that I saw were cruisers or family runabouts. There was considerably less performance boats in the areas that I traveled. For the most part I saw better compliance from the performance boats.

[Dave R]

Everytime you reply your true self shines through like a beacon. :D

Thank you! I do try.

[ApS]

"...The sole point of my posts was to point out the absurdity of whining on the internet instead of protecting one's property..."
This site—and the lake's present messy 600' situation—was on television last night.

Think The Governor watches TV news?

"...There has to be a balance between the interests of the waterfront property owners, businesses, and the general public. Unfortunately you cannot please everyone..."

The state needs to add four more lanes to I-93: Even more businesses, property owners, and "general public" could arrive here, and no business would be allowed to have a lean year. We can even raise the lake level another foot or two every time business suffers a "bad winter". [/sarcasm]

"...If you were truly responsible, you would have already been prepared for the high water and the dock would be just fine..."

My dock was rebuilt above 1984's high water. And, when my dock was rebuilt, the vast majority of boats were NOT being dragged to Winnipesaukee on 4-wheeled trailers.

(Or six wheels, for that matter). :(

[jrc]

Thank you! I do try.

Careful Dave, that batch of tar and feathers they whipped up for me has your name on it. :laugh:

[Dave R]

Careful Dave, that batch of tar and feathers they whipped up for me has your name on it. :laugh:

Thanks, I'm pretty thick skinned, or maybe just ambivalent. My turn to be the scapegoat. All the erosion is my fault.

I'd be much less sarcastic about this subject if folks said something like: "I filled sand bags and made temporary dams to protect my property, but I was unable to avoid damage caused by wakes", instead of "I called the MP 20 times today, I joined WinnFABs, I complained on the Internet, and I STILL have erosion". Ugh, hello... do something besides picking up the phone, writing checks and typing. It's YOUR land, be a person of action; the world loves people of action.

Somehow, pointing this out makes me as (or perhaps more) evil than the folks actually causing the erosion.

[ITD]

Thanks, I'm pretty thick skinned, or maybe just ambivalent. My turn to be the scapegoat. All the erosion is my fault.

I'd be much less sarcastic about this subject if folks said something like: "I filled sand bags and made temporary dams to protect my property, but I was unable to avoid damage caused by wakes", instead of "I called the MP 20 times today, I joined WinnFABs, I complained on the Internet, and I STILL have erosion". Ugh, hello... do something besides picking up the phone, writing checks and typing. It's YOUR land, be a person of action; the world loves people of action.

Somehow, pointing this out makes me as (or perhaps more) evil than the folks actually causing the erosion.

Ah, you've graduated from build better docks to sandbags, I see progress. I haven't heard a good reason not have a lakewide NWZ, other than it will interfere with the "economic engine". Come to think of it, construction is an economic engine, builders should adopt some of these arguements.

Anyway, building walls, be they of concrete or sand seems to be ridiculous to me when a little courtesy will solve the problem. Oh well.

BTW, I think dams, even temporary ones are frowned upon by DES.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Ah, you've graduated from build better docks to sandbags, I see progress. I haven't heard a good reason not have a lakewide NWZ, other than it will interfere with the "economic engine". Come to think of it, construction is an economic engine, builders should adopt some of these arguements.

Anyway, building walls, be they of concrete or sand seems to be ridiculous to me when a little courtesy will solve the problem. Oh well.

BTW, I think dams, even temporary ones are frowned upon by DES.


As a boater and being on the waterfront I've got a foot in "both houses" that seem to be emerging in this discussion. I think 600' is not enough distance to dimish wake size effectively* but to the extent that it may have kept people off the lake it did work somewhat. I think that the people with boats that throw large wakes should be more considerate and either leave them at the dock or do NWS wherever but I don't expect everyone to do that. Some people are just plain ignorant of their wakes, others ignorant of the effect of the lake level and still others just don't give a ... hmmm ... hoot. Given that realitity and the fact the Mother Nature doesn't abide by any of our rules I put the the barrels back on the dock, just like I did last fall. I have a neighbor a few docks down that watched me do this 2 weeks ago and did nothing. My dock is intact and his is demolished. And I'll add it was the constant pounding from the waves of last weeks storms that did it, not this weekends boat wakes, so we all need to get a little perspective here. Given last falls floods I can muster only mild sympathy for the landowners who didn't learn from that lesson and do something to protect their assets. People who put in their seasonal docks and didn't fasten down the decks (as GN mentions here (http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showpost.php?p=31521#post31521)) get no sympathy from me. They and the large wakers are both in the wrong.

*I'm remotivated to make a "Winni Wave-o-meter" to record wave and wake size and then do some tests to measure wake reduction vs distance. Then I can forward the data to Concord so they have something solid to base their decisions on.

[Dave R]

Ah, you've graduated from build better docks to sandbags, I see progress. I haven't heard a good reason not have a lakewide NWZ, other than it will interfere with the "economic engine". Come to think of it, construction is an economic engine, builders should adopt some of these arguements.

Anyway, building walls, be they of concrete or sand seems to be ridiculous to me when a little courtesy will solve the problem. Oh well.

BTW, I think dams, even temporary ones are frowned upon by DES.

Progress or just a lack of reiteration? I still don't advocate poorly built docks even if you think poorly built docks are somehow progress. I don't claim to have all the answers but I cannot imagine how shoddy workmanship or lack of care for one's property has ever been the right thing to do

I suspect everyone agrees that courtesy will solve the problem. There isn't enough though. That's the reality that needs to be dealt with. Protecting your property hardly seems ridiculous to me. I'd swear it's common sense.

If the law (through the DES) does not allow you to protect your property and allows others to damage it, well, I guess you're hosed. You've obviously done your homework and realized nothing can ever be done. Sad to say it seems that giving up is the right thing to do in this case :( Perhaps I'm just too optimistic.

[KonaChick]

Dave R..you seem to think all our docks are made of lincoln logs....I don't get it.

[ITD]

As a boater and being on the waterfront I've got a foot in "both houses" that seem to be emerging in this discussion. I think 600' is not enough distance to dimish wake size effectively* but to the extent that it may have kept people off the lake it did work somewhat. I think that the people with boats that throw large wakes should be more considerate and either leave them at the dock or do NWS wherever but I don't expect everyone to do that. Some people are just plain ignorant of their wakes, others ignorant of the effect of the lake level and still others just don't give a ... hmmm ... hoot. Given that realitity and the fact the Mother Nature doesn't abide by any of our rules I put the the barrels back on the dock, just like I did last fall. I have a neighbor a few docks down that watched me do this 2 weeks ago and did nothing. My dock is intact and his is demolished. And I'll add it was the constant pounding from the waves of last weeks storms that did it, not this weekends boat wakes, so we all need to get a little perspective here. Given last falls floods I can muster only mild sympathy for the landowners who didn't learn from that lesson and do something to protect their assets. People who put in their seasonal docks and didn't fasten down the decks (as GN mentions here (http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showpost.php?p=31521#post31521)) get no sympathy from me. They and the large wakers are both in the wrong.

*I'm remotivated to make a "Winni Wave-o-meter" to record wave and wake size and then do some tests to measure wake reduction vs distance. Then I can forward the data to Concord so they have something solid to base their decisions on.

I'm in both camps also, I chose not to get my boat which was scheduled to be launched last Sunday. My docks have held up well (pipe dock with wood decks that are nailed together). Erosion hasn't been that bad but you can see a fine cloud of silt in the water after every series of waves from wakes. Agree with you on the float away docks and also on the large wakers. As I said before the cruisers and so called GFBL boats seemed to be the most courteous as far as wakes my observations. The "runabouts" that were out either had no clue or didn't care.

Let me know if you need any help with the "Winni Wave-o-meter", sounds like a 6 cocktail project to me.:D

If we follow the MP directors logic, no one should ever have to worry about tsunamis again.

[ITD]

I suspect everyone agrees that courtesy will solve the problem. There isn't enough though. That's the reality that needs to be dealt with.


Bingo, I suspect the useless proclaimation of a 600' NWZ was the result of a poll watching puffed suit in the NH corner office. Good leaders are hard to find. Tough decisions are hard to make.


Protecting your property hardly seems ridiculous to me. I'd swear it's common sense.




Let's try this one more time, I think we agree on the basic concepts, we just don't agree as to the extent to which they should be carried out. I want to try an analogy here. Suppose your house is robbed. You've taken reasonable precautions, dead bolts, locked your windows, alarm system still you got robbed. I come along and say "Pfft, Dave, :rolleye2: there is much more you could have done, this is your fault" . "Why you should have barred all your windows, and installed steel plates over your doors. Dug a moat around your home, filled it with alligators and water and installed a draw bridge." "Then you will be safe and I will listen to your complaint about being robbed, otherwise, suck it up and be quiet."

You, Dave, say to yourself, "Well he does have a point, there is more I could have done." "However, if I bar up my windows, and install steel plates over my door, my quality of life will diminish". "If I dig a moat, fill it with alligators and build a draw bridge, my neighbors won't be too happy, the natural beauty of my lot will be destroyed. Never mind the issue of alligator dung all over my lawn." "At first glance, ITD's bars and moats seem like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. But who wants to live next to a moat?"

All right, I have too much time on my hands.........:rolleye1:

[Dave R]

Bingo, I suspect the useless proclaimation of a 600' NWZ was the result of a poll watching puffed suit in the NH corner office. Good leaders are hard to find. Tough decisions are hard to make.




Let's try this one more time, I think we agree on the basic concepts, we just don't agree as to the extent to which they should be carried out. I want to try an analogy here. Suppose your house is robbed. You've taken reasonable precautions, dead bolts, locked your windows, alarm system still you got robbed. I come along and say "Pfft, Dave, :rolleye2: there is much more you could have done, this is your fault" . "Why you should have barred all your windows, and installed steel plates over your doors. Dug a moat around your home, filled it with alligators and water and installed a draw bridge." "Then you will be safe and I will listen to your complaint about being robbed, otherwise, suck it up and be quiet."

You, Dave, say to yourself, "Well he does have a point, there is more I could have done." "However, if I bar up my windows, and install steel plates over my door, my quality of life will diminish". "If I dig a moat, fill it with alligators and build a draw bridge, my neighbors won't be too happy, the natural beauty of my lot will be destroyed. Never mind the issue of alligator dung all over my lawn." "At first glance, ITD's bars and moats seem like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. But who wants to live next to a moat?"

All right, I have too much time on my hands.........:rolleye1:

Point taken.

[Dave R]

Dave R..you seem to think all our docks are made of lincoln logs....I don't get it.

Have to admit, I don't get this either. Lincoln logs???

If you mean that I think all docks are easy to remove, I don't believe that. The association docks at our place in Maine are put in by crane. The docks we need to personally move are heavy, but on wheels. Very slick design, never any weather damage.

[Weirs guy]

I think at the end of the day the problems aren't with the boaters on this forum, as by your own claims most of you have stayed home. But telling us property owners to stop whining and relax isn't going to make it any better then us telling you boaters to slow down if their boats are still at the dock. I thought someone had proposed boaters self policing each other with air horns like in '98? I’d use one, but I doubt anyone would listen to one coming from shore. The MP is useless (I watched one MP boat Sunday night from 6:45 – 7:15 float off the Weirs town docks WATCHING boats break the NWZ). I’d fight city hall and the DES about a breakwater or such, but since the issue was only this weekend (high water, boats going to fast too close to shore) I don’t think the expense is justified.

So with those options gone, and my wife insistent that the paint ball gun will shoot father then 600’ :rolleye1: , I’m open to suggestions.

[Dave R]

I think at the end of the day the problems aren't with the boaters on this forum, as by your own claims most of you have stayed home. But telling us property owners to stop whining and relax isn't going to make it any better then us telling you boaters to slow down if their boats are still at the dock. I thought someone had proposed boaters self policing each other with air horns like in '98? I’d use one, but I doubt anyone would listen to one coming from shore. The MP is useless (I watched one MP boat Sunday night from 6:45 – 7:15 float off the Weirs town docks WATCHING boats break the NWZ). I’d fight city hall and the DES about a breakwater or such, but since the issue was only this weekend (high water, boats going to fast too close to shore) I don’t think the expense is justified.

So with those options gone, and my wife insistent that the paint ball gun will shoot father then 600’ :rolleye1: , I’m open to suggestions.



The next flood is the one I'd be planning for. Statistically, there's plenty of time to apply for permits if you think you can design something that'll help.

My potato cannon is good for just about 600 feet using Aqua Net hair spray as propellent and Russetts as ammo. I can send you the plans.

[KonaChick]

Careful Dave, that batch of tar and feathers they whipped up for me has your name on it. :laugh:

JRC that would be a waste of a perfectly good batch of tar and feathers...especially since I plan to use them to patch up the holes in my rickety dock. :D

[Airwaves]

This is my second, and last post on this topic.

I thought the topic dealt with wake and enforcement.

One last time I will suggest that transparency is the great equalizer!

Will one of the newspapers, daily or weekly, publish Marine Patrol calls, responses etc. like they do with town police and fire depts? Maybe even the Manchester Union Leader since the MP has boats in all state waterways and along the coast?

If the "log" is published and made pubic *BTW the log IS a public document* then we can stop all this name calling crap!

I thought the name calling went away with the end of the 45/25 legislation, apparently I am wrong.

If I am wrong about the animosity spilling over from the 45/25 issue then this is my last post.

[jrc]

good to see a sense of humor

[ApS]

"...Even when everyone complies with the law, bad things happen..."
Question: How much of Lake Winnipesaukee's floating debris, floating lumber, runoff, mud, erosion, waves, wakes, and stressed waterfront structures did you actually witness this past week?

"...*I'm remotivated to make a "Winni Wave-o-meter" to record wave and wake size and then do some tests to measure wake reduction vs distance. Then I can forward the data to Concord so they have something solid to base their decisions on..."
The makings of a very sensitive "Winni Wave-O-Meter" is sitting on your dock! :) (That being water-filled garbage cans.)

If you noticed, the wakes impacting your dock produce sympathetic concentric rings on the water's surface. The rings are most intense towards the center and will sometimes send up a jet of water!

To take advantage of those rings, you can set up a low-mass float with a lever attached. This will transmit the vibrations to a suitable display to demonstrate the intensity of wake impacts. It can even record the exhaust pulses from a noisy boat—and before the boat comes into sight! (And why I've long-suggested a seismometer be used to measure exhaust noise).

[Weirs guy]

My potato cannon is good for just about 600 feet using Aqua Net hair spray as propellent and Russetts as ammo. I can send you the plans.

Hmm....... :D

And speaking of the media helping spread the word, did anyone else catch WMUR's 6 a.m. broadcast yesterday when they announced that the NWZ was 60' out? No wonder people from out of town don't know whats going on!

[Mee-n-Mac]

{snip}
Let me know if you need any help with the "Winni Wave-o-meter", sounds like a 6 cocktail project to me.:D


Your wording is so apropos :eek: I wanted to make a system without the typical mechanical float so I looked for some electronic method. Long story short, I came across the link below as the simplest way (minus the RF parts) to do what I wanted*.

http://www.merl.com/papers/docs/TR2002-21.pdf

------------ CAUTION GEEK ALERT CAUTION -------------------
-- Look away now or you'll be "Dilbert-ized" and be unable to have children or anything recognizable as a life --

*So what did I want ... well I wanted to be able to have a system that recorded the highs and lows of the water level for a week unattended. That meant some storage device like the ubiquitous USB flash "drives" we see. Better yet I wanted to record enough measurements in fine enough increments (+/-5' in 8 bits = ~0.5" resolution) to be able to reconstruct the each wave moment by moment (? 10 Hz, more ?), not just record the highest high, the lowest low. I wanted to be able to time stamp the measurements and lastly it had to be cheap enough that several could be built w/o breaking my "frugal" nature ;) So a simple micro-controller (uC) like in the URL, a parallel plate capacitor that sits partial submerged, a reference cap, a battery, a USB drive, some switches and an LCD display for user input/output and the mechanical housing, PWB, etc and you have it ... the Winni Wave-o-meter. Clamp it to your dock post or perhaps anchor it offshore and once a week swap USB drives. Review the data on your PC using Excel or such. Next time people are talking about wave or wake heights we might actually have some facts to back them up :eek: Biggest problem (for me) is programming the uC to write to the USB drive. I'll have to ask "Mee" for some help there.

[Belmont Resident]

Some observations from this Sundays ride.

We left the Lakeport end or Paugus Bay, only 2 other performance boats to be seen all the way up 2 the channel. Paugus bay was full of family boats all jockeying for the ability to get up on plane while pushing the headway speed thing in essence making a larger wake than if they were on plane. In the channel everyone was in a rush to go nowhere. Boaters driving up the sides in an attempt to cut in further up.
Took us ½ hour to get through the channel. Went out around eagle island noticed almost all runabouts with families and some cruisers. Once out in the open we got up to about 60, went by the Witches past Welch Island and ran over to Trexlers marina where we stopped to wait for another boat. On the way over we noticed one carver making about a 4’ wake.
While drifting we were passed by a fishing boat within 50’.
We spent time helping a disabled boat then left for home. We took the route between Bear and Mark Island traveling at headway until we got past Mark Island.
We were passed by several boats all traveling within 100’while on plane.
One particularly close call by a grey sided Formula cruiser from Lakeport marina. He passed within 50’ of us while within 100’ of the tip of Mark Island then we witnessed him and every other boat around us blow the NWZ off Governors Island.
The rest of the trip back to the dock was uneventful.
Not once did we see a performance boater do anything wrong, not that we saw many of them out there anyways. 95% of the boats were runabouts or cruisers.
This was my son’s last ride for 2 years; he leaves to go over seas this month to fight a war I do not believe in for a president I despise.

[ossipeeboater]

We can't relax if individuals such as yourself are swamping our beaches with your selfish actions. I mean, come on, why is it so hard to slow down for a few days or weeks if it helps everyone enjoy themselves? I really don't care if you boat or don't, your attitude is the problem, along with a lot of others here. I sided with the go fast crowd on HB162, but this weekends actions have started to change my mind.

You expect us to put up with all the inconvenience but can’t be bothered to do anything yourselves. We could build walls, sandbag, or the like. But you could slow down FOR A WEEKEND! I’m not some tree hugger, or environmental nazi, just a guy who wants to live and let live. But I’m also not going to let somebody else’s good time ruin mine.

So the next time one of you decides to go blowing past my beach ignoring the 600' NWZ ask yourself this question, if I’m “too lazy” to build a wall or put up sandbags, am I too lazy to pull all the debris out of the water I’ve found on my beach? Bet that slows you down. If not then stop by and we can discuss it in person, I've been flagging down people all week to no avail and maybe we can share our points of view.


the issues out there this weekend weren't caused by go fast boats they were caused by inconsiderate people. I live in a no wake zone and truthfully would rather have the boats come through at 70 that 3-4 mph over no wake speed putting up the biggest wake they could. That was the issue with HB162 it addressed somethng that wasn't the cause of the issues on the lake. I boat winni 10-12 days per year and am on Ossipee about 45 days a year and in the last 6 years I've been out there I haven't had 1 issue with boats going too fast but have multiple issues per day with people vioalting the NMW and the 150 foot rules.

[Weirs guy]

ossipeeboater, let me try and be more specific. I’m not a boater so I’ll stay away from using terms that I don’t understand. My issue this week has been with "boats" (motorized means of transportation traveling on water) that were well within 600' of my beach making waves/wakes/tsunami's that caused water to wash over my little beach, my kids, wife and me. My words were “go fast crowd”, not “go fast boats”.

I was opposed to hb162 because I personally detest any law that takes away from personal freedoms. However, if this weeks behavior is the norm that some of the hb162 supporters deal with, then I can see there reasoning for supporting the bill. If I were a boater I would be concerned that behavior like this past weekends could lead to another speed limit bill.

HOWEVER, I’m not trying to restart the speed limit debate by any means. I think Dave R hit the nail on the head in another topic when he said that your observations from this weekend depended on where you live. I’ve never had issues with wakes when the lake is at normal levels, other people do. It would be great if we could cut the lake up into “regions” with different requirements (this half is a NWZ, that quarter has a speed limit, this sections wide open racetrack), but that’s not practical for every square inch of the lake.

So I’m back to a potato and paint ball guns.:cool:

[Mee-n-Mac]

{snip}
So I’m back to a potato and paint ball guns.:cool:

How about "The Beast" from these guys ...
http://www.waterballoonlaunchers.com/

[Weirs guy]

Now we're talking!

[twins]

I hate to interrupt such a spirited exchange of ideas (and keep this thread alive!), But I purchased one of the twin islands (Gem Island) in Melvin Bay over the winter and have been concerned about the status of the dock. We were planning on leaving from Florida to go to the island for the summer right when the rains hit but have delayed our trip as I'm sure our dock was under a foot of water.

We're hoping to leave at the end of next week, and would like to know if there is a dock to tie our boat to.

If anyone is out on the lake and in the area, could you take a look and let us know, I would appreciate it.

[Islander2]

twins,

Which one is Gem, the one closer to Melvin Village, or the one further away? Will see what the weather conditions are when I arrive later today, and could take a cruise by, if the rain lets up.

[twins]

It is the furthest from Melvin Bay, the northwestern twin. Thanks.

[ITD]

Your wording is so apropos :eek: I wanted to make a system without the typical mechanical float so I looked for some electronic method. Long story short, I came across the link below as the simplest way (minus the RF parts) to do what I wanted*.

http://www.merl.com/papers/docs/TR2002-21.pdf

------------ CAUTION GEEK ALERT CAUTION -------------------
-- Look away now or you'll be "Dilbert-ized" and be unable to have children or anything recognizable as a life --

*So what did I want ... well I wanted to be able to have a system that recorded the highs and lows of the water level for a week unattended. That meant some storage device like the ubiquitous USB flash "drives" we see. Better yet I wanted to record enough measurements in fine enough increments (+/-5' in 8 bits = ~0.5" resolution) to be able to reconstruct the each wave moment by moment (? 10 Hz, more ?), not just record the highest high, the lowest low. I wanted to be able to time stamp the measurements and lastly it had to be cheap enough that several could be built w/o breaking my "frugal" nature ;) So a simple micro-controller (uC) like in the URL, a parallel plate capacitor that sits partial submerged, a reference cap, a battery, a USB drive, some switches and an LCD display for user input/output and the mechanical housing, PWB, etc and you have it ... the Winni Wave-o-meter. Clamp it to your dock post or perhaps anchor it offshore and once a week swap USB drives. Review the data on your PC using Excel or such. Next time people are talking about wave or wake heights we might actually have some facts to back them up :eek: Biggest problem (for me) is programming the uC to write to the USB drive. I'll have to ask "Mee" for some help there.


Oh my, you are serious about this, as with most good ideas, someone usually (but not always) has thought of it before. So, being the lazy engineer (mechanical) that I am I googled wave sensor and came up with this link, http://www.oceansensorsystems.com/products.htm#WaveLogger looks like just what the doctor ordered and those cocktails taste much better when you don't have to work while drinking them. In fact, you can even download their logging software. I wonder if they would let us "evaluate" a couple for a few weeks?:emb:

[Mee-n-Mac]

Oh my, you are serious about this, as with most good ideas, someone usually (but not always) has thought of it before. So, being the lazy engineer (mechanical) that I am I googled wave sensor and came up with this link, http://www.oceansensorsystems.com/products.htm#WaveLogger looks like just what the doctor ordered and those cocktails taste much better when you don't have to work while drinking them. In fact, you can even download their logging software. I wonder if they would let us "evaluate" a couple for a few weeks?:emb:


Looks like just what the doctor ordered ! I didn't see a price list but I'll make the leap and guess it's more than I'd care to pay (like that's a leap) :D Good info though, sounds like 30 Hz is a better sampling rate. So let's see 30 x 60 secs x 60 mins x 24 hrs x 7 days * 1.25 FF = ~ 23 MB of storage. No problem there. I may actually have to make one, if only to get (back) into uC programming and to learn the tools. Many fun and useful widgets can be made from them.

[jrc]

Looks like just what the doctor ordered ! I didn't see a price list but I'll make the leap and guess it's more than I'd care to pay (like that's a leap) :D Good info though, sounds like 30 Hz is a better sampling rate. So let's see 30 x 60 secs x 60 mins x 24 hrs x 7 days * 1.25 FF = ~ 23 MB of storage. No problem there. I may actually have to make one, if only to get (back) into uC programming and to learn the tools. Many fun and useful widgets can be made from them.

Warning geek alert!

I've got a couple 8051's and the assembler from the late 80's, but it's on 5.25 disks. I even have a few UV erasable eproms. Let me know where to send them. My wife keeps telling me to throw away all this stuff, but I knew it would come in handy some day. I wonder can you address 23 MB with an 8051, might need to bank swap. ;)

[ApS]

"...Erosion hasn't been that bad but you can see a fine cloud of silt in the water after every series of waves from wakes..."

Effects of our present high-water episode won't be noticed right away.

With our series of historical high-water extremes, embankments are washed of silt, mud, duff, sand, and will reshuffle the rocks that line the shores. The grasp that trees have on the shoreline are weakened, and trees one after the other, will fall into the lake. Sunlight, now newly admitted to the shallows, will promote long strands of algae—something that wasn't present when I first saw the lake.

This tree was photographed as it's a red pine that's succumbing at its roots and will eventually fall into the lake. Red pines seem to suffer erosion worse than white pines, and red pines in particular are declining in numbers around the lake.

There may be no better natural filter for lakewater than matted pine needles. The gradual loss of pines will likely result in greater velocity of runoff into the lake, resulting in more soil loss, faster rates of high water extremes, "improved" milfoil habitat, and more algae.