No wake - lake wide?? [Archive] - Winnipesaukee Forum

Lakegeezer

05-16-2006, 11:21 AM

When the lake is over 505 ft (normal being 504.32), should there be an automatic no-wake zone declared? While a no-wake zone has an impact on boaters and likely reduces the visitors to the area, it may make sense. At .68 feet (8 inches) above full lake, there is signficant lake front erosion, dock and boat damage. Add wake, and it only gets worse. According to Bizer's graphic, there have been only three cases in over 20 years where 505' has been exceeded. In 98, there was a no-wake rule. We're rapidly heading to a fourth example (second in a year). Why not declare no-wake now?

Cobalt

05-16-2006, 11:36 AM

Hi Lakegeezer,

I wondered what level the lake reached back in 1998 when there was a no wake rule. I cannot recall if it exceed 505.00, but it seemed a bit higher than the current level. It was also declared later in the boating season when there was much more activity on the lake. Maybe, the early season lack of boating activity will allow more time to lower the lake level before any restrictions are declared.

Gatto Nero

05-16-2006, 11:51 AM

I Maybe, the early season lack of boating activity will allow more time to lower the lake level before any restrictions are declared.

I sure hope so. 1998 was painful!

Woodsy

05-16-2006, 12:22 PM

Lakegeezer,

As with everything, its all about the almighty dollar, in this case tourist $$$!! This weekend is the all important Spring Fishing Derby and next weekend is Memorial Day! These weekends are the kickoff to the summer season. I seriously doubt any of the tourist based local businesses want to see a NWZ implemented, especially considering the abysmal winter tourism.

Woodsy

Bear Islander

05-16-2006, 01:02 PM

The Bizer web site shows the 1998 high to be 505' 6". Since the lake is now just over 505' and the rain will continue for some time I would guess we will go above the 1998 level. Even if it stopped now the run off will bring the level up.

Looks to me like there will be a speed limit on the lake.

Woodsy

05-16-2006, 01:18 PM

Bizer shows it just below 505'...
NH DES shows that it might be just above 505'...

They increased the output of the Lakeport Dam, even though there is severe flooding downstream. I don't think the lake level will climb another 6" or so... but you never know.

We might just get a temporary NWZ...

Woodsy

Bear Islander

05-16-2006, 01:47 PM

If you check that DES page you will find the lake has gone up 16" in the last 72 hours. I think it will go up at least another 6". I hope I'm wrong.

Gatto Nero

05-16-2006, 02:09 PM

Who would make the call about a lake wide NWZ? Is that a DES function?

BTW, it took me a while to find the DES web page you were referring to so for anyone else that may be interested here is the link.

http://www.des.state.nh.us/rti_data/wein3_TABLE.HTML

It's pretty cool that it monitors it by the hour.

ITD

05-16-2006, 02:38 PM

If you check that DES page you will find the lake has gone up 16" in the last 72 hours. I think it will go up at least another 6". I hope I'm wrong.

Wow, 16 inches, imagine if the lake hadn't been low, this would be a disaster. I think all the people who chastised the dam operators at that meeting a few weeks ago had better be writing their apology notes and thanking the dam operators for their foresight.

itchin for fishin

05-16-2006, 06:30 PM

Wow, 16 inches, imagine if the lake hadn't been low, this would be a disaster. I think all the people who chastised the dam operators at that meeting a few weeks ago had better be writing their apology notes and thanking the dam operators for their foresight.

If they have that level of ability to forsee, they are in the wrong business! We can thank them for the luck they had keeping it that low.

Merrymeeting

05-16-2006, 07:54 PM

If they have that level of ability to forsee, they are in the wrong business! We can thank them for the luck they had keeping it that low.

I for one believe that more than luck has been involved. If you look at some of the extremes they've had to deal with from Mother Nature over the last 12-24 months, they've done an outstanding job, lowering when things were unusually high, and getting it back to level (either way) when necessary.

It's a thankless job, but I'm glad someone takes care of it.

upthesaukee

05-16-2006, 10:01 PM

Keeper, a job well done. Mother Nature can certainly be fickle, and hand us all a lot to deal with, but most of us don't have to worry about what is going to happen with the economy or property. To balance it all, and try to anticipate what should happen, then react in such a positive way when we don't get the anticipated weather, and then to react when it goes the other way, and then get back where it belongs, and... Oh heck, you know what I mean. Heck of a good job, and thanks for all you do for all of us. (I'm sure it is more than just one person, Keeper, so thanks to all.) :)

JohnNH

05-17-2006, 07:07 AM

Woodsy,

In general, all the boats fishing the derby will be trolling at 2 to 4 mph. This should not cause an issue.

John/NH

Woodsy

05-17-2006, 07:21 AM

John...

Its not the trolling.... Its the return trip to Weirs with a live fish.

The fish have to be ALIVE when delivered to the weighing station at the Weirs. Not all boats have live wells for the fish. If you caught a 6lb tagged salmon up in Moultonborough Bay, the fish would more than likely be dead before you could idle your way to the Weirs...

I know alot of local businesses (at least the ones I have talked to) are looking forward to a successful Spring Derby. They lost alot of $$$ with no snowmobile tourism over the winter.

I don't think its going to be much of an issue. The wise ole Dam Operators have increased ther output of the dam, and it has stopped raining. The Lake is high, but I don't think its going to get high enough to warrant a lake-wide NWZ. Unless of course it rains again...

Woodsy

Bear Islander

05-17-2006, 02:08 PM

Woodsy

I'm not sure you understand what is going on here. I am at Bear Island, I came up to take out my dock because it was 2 inches under water. One dock section is gone, probably in Wolfeboro. Some of my neighbors docks are floating and there are none more than 3 inches out of the water.

If the lake goes up another 2 inches it will pass the 1998 high. The weather forecast is for rain on and off through Monday. In any event run off will bring the lake up more.

I saw about 20 boats today and all but 2 where already going no wake speed. I don't know if they will declare the lake a NWZ but if they don't I will be like asking them why not.

Weirs guy

05-17-2006, 02:59 PM

Based on what I've heard today keeper and his pals will be bringing the lake down for this weekend. Good news, unless your downstream.

Woodsy

05-17-2006, 03:07 PM

Bear Islander...

Here is a link to an article in todays Laconia Citizen that does a better job of explaining the situation than I do. It seems at this point all parties are in agreement that talk of a lakewide NWZ is premature. You will need membership to view this.

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060517/CITIZEN0101/105170212/-1/CITIZEN

I am merely pointing out that the Spring Derby is this weekend, and Memorial Day is next weekend. Both of these weekends bring in big tourist $$$ to the area. Considering that local tourist dependant merchants barely squeaked thru the winter, any action that might decrease the number of visitors to the region is seriously frowned upon.

I understand your problem and I am sure your not the only waterfront property owner who would like to see a lake wide NWZ.

Woodsy

islandAl

05-17-2006, 03:35 PM

Considering that local tourist dependant merchants barely squeaked thru the winter, any action that might decrease the number of visitors to the region is seriously frowned upon.
Woodsy

Too bad
What if they come and have bad experience with filthy water. They might never come back and tell all their friends not to come. Better to miss a weekend or two than ruin reputation.
The water in Moultonborough bay is brown with the runoff. Debris everywhere makes for un-enjoyable boat trips and real danger going over headway speed.
The land owners will need to file abetments over the loss of property.

ApS

05-17-2006, 06:05 PM

A rain shower is presently covering the Ossipees, and the Union-Leader is calling for thunderstorms tomorrow—Thursday.

I have the highest dock on my shore, and it only has three inches of freeboard. (Can I say my dock has "freeboard"?)
:confused:

Major problem

05-17-2006, 07:32 PM

John...

Its not the trolling.... Its the return trip to Weirs with a live fish.

The fish have to be ALIVE when delivered to the weighing station at the Weirs. Not all boats have live wells for the fish. If you caught a 6lb tagged salmon up in Moultonborough Bay, the fish would more than likely be dead before you could idle your way to the Weirs...
Woodsy

There are several ways of verifying that a fish has been freshly caught in Winni during the tournament but I see nothing in the rules that says the fish has to be "alive and kicking".

The real pressure to hurry to the weigh-in station is when you've caught "a good one" 15 mins before the deadline.

SteveS

05-17-2006, 08:32 PM

Bear Islander...

It seems at this point all parties are in agreement that talk of a lakewide NWZ is premature.
Woodsy

I am an interested party, and I sure don't agree that talk of a lake wide no-wake rule is premature. It's a real possibility, and worthy of careful consideration, since it would affect so many different constituencies.

Bear Islander

05-17-2006, 10:22 PM

Woodsy

That Citizen article seems to have been written several days ago and does not reflect current conditions.

The Citizen article quotes the "current" lake level as 504.32, if you check the DES sight you will find that the lake has not been that low since 10am Sunday April 14.

The lake is now 505.30, that is 12" higher than when that article was written.

lfm

05-18-2006, 06:59 AM

I think the citizen article wasn't clear. Isn't full lake 504.32, and according to the the citizen the lake level was 7" over that, which would mean that the lake has risen 5" since that article was written.

Woodsy

05-18-2006, 07:24 AM

Bear Islander...

The article was written YESTERDAY... and you didn't understand this particular sentence.

"Lake Winnipesaukee has risen 15 inches since Friday and currently is about seven inches over its full capacity at 504.32 feet above sea level."

Full Lake is 504.32 or if you need the conversion, 504 Ft, 3.84 inches. This mornings DES website listed the current level at 505.30. Almost exactly 1' above full lake. They have increased the output of the Lakeport Dam to 1256CFS. That flow rate will be able to lower the lake about .75" per day.

I understand your concern as a waterfront property owner. However, I don't think that 1' above full lake constitutes a flood of such epic proportions as to require lakewide restrictions, especially given the economic importance of these next two weekends. However, as the article stated, a lake-wide NWZ is a very contentious issue, with many competing interests.

Woodsy

Quilt Lady

05-18-2006, 07:26 AM

camp guy

05-18-2006, 07:51 AM

Let's not get all balled up in the details of hundredths of inches, nor the specifics of dates and times, the increased water level presents a potential for DES problems and needs to be addressed. The economic concern is minor compared to the long-term concerns to the economy if the Lake suffers. If I remember correctly, in late June and early July of 1998 there was a lake-wide NWZ due to high water. There was also a bass fishing tournement on the Lake at this time and those boys with their go-fast fishing boats had to comply with the local rules and keep it at 6 MPH or slower, a real trick with a 17' boat powered by a 225 hp outboard !! The Mount Washington had to abide by the NWZ, also, and it kept running. And here we are today, none the worse off for that period of NWZ, and we will be here next year, too, none the worse off for a NWZ this year. The preservation of the shoreline and personal property is more important than the fleeting economics associated with unrestricted boating. The answer, boat responsibly and act with courtesy.

SteveS

05-18-2006, 07:52 AM

Woodsy:

How do you calculate the relationship between the current flow rate at Lakeport & the future lowering of the lake? Is an estimate of inflow via rain & runoff included in your ciphering?

ApS

05-18-2006, 08:44 AM

After the fog lifted, I saw not one floating section, but two sections of those stairways one associates with docks and shorelines. There are large trees (sawed off trees), and large dimensional lumber.

Most of this stuff is too big to load into my boat, and too heavy to pull aboard a bigger boat. I called the MPs, and got a newbie who recorded its presence. I've also got less dock "freeboard" than yesterday.

:eek:

Bear Islander

05-18-2006, 08:55 AM

Woodsy

That's not the way I read the article, but since FLL is 504.32 you must be correct.

The good news is that the lake has stopped rising and the weather forecast has improved a little. I would agree that as it stands right now a NWZ is not necessary. However Memorial Day boating could do a lot of damage if the lake is high. Lets hope things improve by then.

Woodsy

05-18-2006, 09:32 AM

Bear Islander...

That particular sentence is a bit tough to understand. I had to read it a few times myself.

I agree, a high lake coupled with Memorial Day boat traffic could spell trouble.

I am hoping they keep the output of the Lakeport Dam high... at the current rate with no excessive rain, they can drain the lake down almost 6"-7" by Memorial Day.

Camp Guy had it right when he said boat responsibly and with courtesy. Make sure that if your going to get on or off plane that you are well away from shore, and be mindful of other peoples property & docks.

Woodsy

Seaplane Pilot

05-18-2006, 10:09 AM

SAMIAM

05-18-2006, 10:15 AM

I don't think that a lake wide NWZ does a lot of good.Mother nature does not obey our rules and sends some pretty good sized waves our way when the wind comes up.Mostly on the eastern side of the lake,I realize ,but stormy weather sometimes brings a south wind.....and the other shore gets hammered. Oh well,maybe we should just get the Army Engineers to build dykes all ther way around the lake like New Orleans.

jrc

05-18-2006, 10:54 AM

I don't want to throw bombs at anyone in particular, but I dread the thought of the cabin cruisers plowing by, throwing up 4' wakes with the lake at these levels. Throw in the high price of gas, which adds more incentive to cruise at plowing speed. :(

Plowing speed is the worst gas mileage. Cruiser owners should know that a planing boat gets the best MPG at "no wake" speeds or just fully on plane. Those middle speeds, where the boat is climbing out of the hole, are the worst for MPG and for wakes. On a typical boat, the more wake you make the more gas you use. Of course what people should know and what they do are not always the same.

Very high speeds near wide open throttle also hurt your MPG, but no one thinks there saving fuel at full speed.

gtxrider

05-18-2006, 11:00 AM

Plowing speed is the worst gas mileage. Cruiser owners should know that a planing boat gets the best MPG at "no wake" speeds or just fully on plane. Those middle speeds, where the boat is climbing out of the hole, are the worst for MPG and for wakes. On a typical boat, the more wake you make the more gas you use. Of course what people should know and what they do are not always the same.

Very high speeds near wide open throttle also hurt your MPG, but no one thinks there saving fuel at full speed.

Yes if they want to save fuel get it up on a plane ASAP. Plowing thru the water is like driving your car in 1st gear.

Rayhunt

05-18-2006, 02:01 PM

Is the blanket no wake going to be initiated ? :confused: I know of many docks that are floating and being liffted up by the high water and im seeing boats plowing along !!

Rayhunt

05-18-2006, 02:06 PM

NOW is the time to implement the no wake ban ...we have several docks being damaged presently ..This weekend will be harmful to many shoreline structures , erosion etc ..Whats the word from MP ?? Do they have a website up ?
Thank you:D

Excalibur

05-18-2006, 02:50 PM

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
N.H. DEPARTMENT OF SAFETY
DIVISION OF SAFETY SERVICE
BUREAU OF MARINE PATROL

Thursday, May 18, 2006

For additional information, contact: Director David T. Barrett, (603) 293-2037.

N.H. MARINE PATROL URGES NO-WAKE SPEED FOR BOATERS

GILFORD, N.H. - As New Hampshire residents begin their recovery from a week of devastating rains, the New Hampshire Marine Patrol is asking boaters to operate at headway speed on public waters until the flood water levels subside.

With the high water levels, wakes from boats traveling greater than headway speed pose an additional threat to private property and damage natural habitats.

"While those directly affected by the recent weather begin the arduous task of clean-up, those of us who have opportunity to enjoy the benefits of boating on our lakes, rivers and ponds can personally contribute to that," said Director David T. Barrett of the Department of Safety's Marine Patrol. "The New Hampshire Marine Patrol urges all boaters to proceed at headway speed when operating on all our public waters until the water levels subside to normal elevations."

Mee-n-Mac

05-18-2006, 03:18 PM

Looking at the DES data for today it appears the lake may be hitting a plateau. The level has remained constant for the last 8 or so hours and if we don't get any significant rainfall it should start coming down. The prediction I saw calls for some rain on Friday (in the AM) but I don't know how much is expected to fall. My guess is that by next weekend the lake will be high but not excessively, so a lake-wide NWZ won't be needed then. Guess we won't be breaking the all time record this year (which is fine by me).

What I'm thinking is how lucky we were that the lake started out low when the rains came. If it had been filled to a normal level we'd really be up the creek w/o a paddle*. Given the flood of last year and now this, I'm thinking of ways to be better prepared to handle high waters. It's not a question of if but only one of when. The Lakeport dam, and more limiting the downstream drainage, just doesn't have the capacity to handle these kinds of storms. This isn't going to change anytime soon, if ever. It's up to "us" to handle what Mother Nature dishes up.

*Either that or it's time to open a store - do you think they (http://www.pbase.com/brantrockgreenharbor/image/60184782) are franchising ? ;)

GWC...

05-18-2006, 04:59 PM

Forecast is looking rather wet...

http://www.intellicast.com/WeatherImg/CustomGraphic/fcstmap48.gif

http://www.intellicast.com/IcastPage/LoadPage.aspx?loc=usa&seg=LocalWeather&prodgrp=SurfaceMaps&product=ForecastTomorrow&prodnav=none&pid=none

Lake height chart - Hourly Data:
http://www.des.state.nh.us/rti_data/wein3_TABLE.HTML

05/13 Sat 3.66 - .52 54 240 CFS Here comes the rain
05/14 Sun 4.24 + .04 53 237 CFS 3.95" rain. Lake up 6".
05/15 Mon 4.68 + .49 52 234 CFS Largest 2-day gain in since 1982
05/16 Tue 4.96 + .79 52 394 CFS
05/17 Wed 5.18 + .98 52 713 CFS
05/18 Thu 5.33 +1.09 52 1256 CFS
05/19 Fri 5.37 +1.10 54 1799 CFS Only up 1/2 inch
05/20 Sat 5.46 +1.18 53 2300 CFS Another 0.7" rain yesterday
*--------------------------------------
Until the water level subsides,
The N.H. MARINE PATROL URGES NO-WAKE SPEED FOR BOATERS

http://www.bizer.com/bztnews.htm#lakelevel

Seems to my memory that comment was given for the need of courtesy and consideration to others, regarding the usage of the Lake, during the speed limit debates.

Have some forgotten, already?

Lakegeezer

05-18-2006, 06:14 PM

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
N.H. DEPARTMENT OF SAFETY
DIVISION OF SAFETY SERVICE
BUREAU OF MARINE PATROL

Thursday, May 18, 2006

N.H. MARINE PATROL URGES NO-WAKE SPEED FOR BOATERS

This is good news. Not everyone will get the message, not everyone will comply with the request, but it will help the lake to some degree. I plan to go looking for bass beds with my trolling motor this weekend. I'm wondering what the bass do when the climate changes the water levels so fast.

secondcurve

05-18-2006, 07:25 PM

Does the "urges" langauage mean that the NWZ is optional? Can the Marine Patrol implement a "required" NWZ? I'm trying to understand the language and its implications. Thank you in advance.

Orion

05-18-2006, 08:03 PM

Does the "urges" langauage mean that the NWZ is optional?

Does it matter? Just do it. We don't need our parents to tell us what's right. Do we?

secondcurve

05-18-2006, 09:14 PM

Orion:

Obviously, your parents never taught you manners. I'm simply trying to understand the Marine Patrol rules. If yu have nothing of value to add, please don't respond. Thanks.

upthesaukee

05-18-2006, 10:21 PM

Does the "urges" langauage mean that the NWZ is optional? Can the Marine Patrol implement a "required" NWZ? I'm trying to understand the language and its implications. Thank you in advance.

The memo from Director Barrett would seem to be talking about all NH waterways, not just Winni. Secondly, most written communication, including laws, insurance contracts, etc. use words like "shall" or "must" to denote a mandatory action, leaving words like "urge" to be suggestive in nature, and while it would seem to be a prudent or wise thing to do, would not be mandatory.

That's the good news:

Bad news: NWS has issued a flood watch for Friday, with low pressure developing along the mid Atlantic coast and overspreading this region on Friday. Rain can be locally heavy, with 1-2 inches possible, along with some hail before tapering off sometime Fri night. Expect saturated ground to allow runoff and streams and rivers to rise rapidly.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings:(

Orion

05-18-2006, 10:34 PM

Sorry SecondCurve. It was not meant to be a personal attack, though it was poorly written and appeared to be. Just a comment to everyone that we should do it anyway and not wait for the "officials" to tell us to do so.

Airwaves

05-18-2006, 11:59 PM

Hi All,
I just would like to get back to a statement I read from a post on Wednesday from Weirs Guy:
Based on what I've heard today keeper and his pals will be bringing the lake down for this weekend. Good news, unless your downstream.
Is there any truth to this? If so I'd like to know now since we are in the midst of a major clean up operation and if we are going to get more water from the lake, and another half inch or so of rain Friday, I'd really like a heads up!

Mee-n-Mac

05-19-2006, 05:02 AM

Hi All,
I just would like to get back to a statement I read from a post on Wednesday from Weirs Guy:

Is there any truth to this? If so I'd like to know now since we are in the midst of a major clean up operation and if we are going to get more water from the lake, and another half inch or so of rain Friday, I'd really like a heads up!

Well they've increased to outflow at Lakeport just recently. I'd guess that this new, higher rate will continue unless it threatens to re-flood downstream. From GWC's and UTS's posts it sounds like we'll be getting another inch or so of rain so perhaps the dam guys will scale back a bit. In either case I'd be concerned that the water will rise somewhat this weekend.

The inflow and outflow for the Lakeport dam can be found here (http://www.des.state.nh.us/dam/graph/chart2006.htm). I think there is a hour by hour chart as well but I couldn't find it. Depending on where downstream you are you might want to find the discharge rates for other dams which can be found here (http://www.des.state.nh.us/RTi_Home/). ie - the discharge from the Winnipesaukee River (http://www.des.state.nh.us/RTi_Home/station_information_display.asp?ID=TLTN3&NAME=Winnipesaukee+River)might be useful to those on the Merrimac.

secondcurve

05-19-2006, 05:46 AM

Orion:

Thanks for the apology. I appreciate it. My boat will remain tied up until at least the Memorial Day weekend. Let's all pray for a prolonged period of sunshine.

Woodsy

05-19-2006, 06:26 AM

According to this article in todays Union Leader, the lake-wide NWZ is VOLUNTARY.

Why it isn't a mandatory NWZ is beyond me. I can only guess that DES doesn't see the need for it.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Winni+Derby+starts+today+wit h+fewer+anglers+on+hand&articleId=6646077f-112b-4ed4-a022-daa5d3ad3123

I am guessing that because its not a mandated NWZ, very few will get the message. Even if they do, they are not bound to obey it. Last a lake-wide NWZ was implemented, it was MANDATORY. It received an incredible amount of media coverage, with tv, radio and print. Today its just a small blurb...

Woodsy

Lakegeezer

05-19-2006, 06:57 AM

In the NWZ of 98, air-horns were useful in letting the relatives of Captain Bonehead know that they were leaving too much wake.

For those of you that have boats tied up to a dock, you may want to check the connection. My boat is listing towards the dock, because the ropes are connected to an eyelet dock-side and the boat is now tied too tight. The dock is a bit crooked, and decking on the low side is even with the water. Every time a boat goes by with wake, the dock is washed with the wake. For once, I'm glad the weather doesn't look good for the weekend. It will keep the boating population down, and those that fish tend to understand the issues about lake ecology.

Weirs guy

05-19-2006, 11:21 AM

Airwaves,

Don't quote me on this, I'm by no means an expert. I know that earlier in the week there was talk of brining Silver lake in Belmont, part of the Winni watershed, up 2'(?) over flood stage to bring winni down. I'm not sure if todays rains or other variables have changed that. I was just hoping that we aren't making matters worse downstream to save our own beaches and docks.

Just more proof that Keeper and his dam buddies can’t win. Somebody somewhere won't want the extra water.

Lakegeezer

05-19-2006, 04:20 PM

It will keep the boating population down, and those that fish tend to understand the issues about lake ecology. I was wrong. I have been watching fishing boats go by all afternoon. All were cruising at wake speed. Each time they go by, the lake is slapping at the shore line in places that haven't seen water since 98 and it is eroding quickly. At least the boats are fairly small, and the wake is 1-2 feet. No heavy cruisers so far.

DRH

05-19-2006, 07:06 PM

I was wrong. I have been watching fishing boats go by all afternoon. All were cruising at wake speed. Each time they go by, the lake is slapping at the shore line in places that haven't seen water since 98 and it is eroding quickly.Based on our observations today, the "no wake" request is being ignored by practically all boaters. Unless the "request" is changed to a "requirement", I am afraid there is going to be significant shoreline and dock damage.

Sunbeam lodge

05-19-2006, 07:54 PM

One other misleading part of the article were the comments about the amount of junk floating out there. The lake is presently calm and I can see lots of stuff floating out in front of our house: tree parts (various sizes), dock posts and decking and even a red gasoline can that a passing boat picked up. Once the wind and wave action picks up, it will be hard to see this stuff. Keep your eyes open and slow down . . . unless you don't mind paying out the big bucks for a new prop!
Who do you call to tow or pick up large trees or docks that are floating and are definately a safety hazard. Some may land on your property and it may cost quite a bit to haul them off.
Also, I feel we are going to lose a lot of Loon nests this year as the water is the highest I have seen it since 1998.

Weekend Pundit

05-19-2006, 08:21 PM

Another good reason to keep the speed down is the amount of debris that may still be out there, at or just under the surface. A co-worker was out on Winnipesaukee yesterday and he saw quite a bit of junk out there. The last thing you want to do is hit that while you're on plane. It's a quick way to bring a premature end to your boating season.

Rinkerfam

05-19-2006, 10:48 PM

I can only hope that everyone, whether lakefront property owners or not, will abide by the headway speed only "recommendation". Even though I fall within the "not" category, and would love nothing more than to take an early season rip around the lake this weekend, I can't think of a more inconsiderate thing to do. Please everyone....Do the Right Thing!!

Orion

05-20-2006, 05:30 AM

I can only hope that everyone, whether lakefront property owners or not, will abide by the headway speed only "recommendation".

Sadly, my observations are that it's being pretty much ignored. People either don't know or don't care. I'm sure it's not very well disseminated and many that have heard are not complying because it's not mandatory.

ApS

05-20-2006, 05:51 AM

"...Who do you call to tow or pick up large trees or docks that are floating and are definately a safety hazard. Some may land on your property and it may cost quite a bit to haul them off..."

I wondered this myself. I called the MPs on the staircases, but got no commitment from the "newbie" dispatcher.

Later, I towed and tied one set to my shoreline. A yellow Tow boat appeared, passed slowly by my address (one I had left with the MPs), raced around a bit, then left.

I'd guess that taxpayers are paying for the "tow" of large debris. 'Sure wish they'd return -- I'm getting quite a collection. Maybe once it's ashore, they won't tow it?

BTW: My dock now has just 2" of freeboard remaining. It shook heavily with just the light chop of Friday afternoon. There were heavy showers in the Ossipee Mountains towards dusk yesterday.

I agree with DRH: The NWZ message was too little and too late.

SAMIAM

05-20-2006, 08:43 AM

With a big fish tournament on this weekend,I don't think there's much hope that bassboaters will observe the NWZ.
Fortunately, most bass boats have a modified V and don't throw off much of a wake

KBoater

05-20-2006, 09:35 AM

The last time 1998 that the NO WAKE was imposed was around the 4th weekend (I think) Almost everyone obey the speed and if you didn’t then anyone that saw you let you know you were doing wrong (horns, hand signals, etc). Wolfeboro Bay was calm most of the time and that was an interesting site with many boats out there. There were posting at all the public accesses so new launchers could know the restriction. It was well advertised. I’m not sure the state has done this currently. Is the correct?

Just Wonderin

05-20-2006, 12:35 PM

Bear Islander

05-20-2006, 12:42 PM

The lake is now higher that it was in 1998 and approaching the all time high from 1984.

If we needed a NWZ in 1998 why don't we need one now?

BlackCatIslander

05-20-2006, 12:44 PM

Previously, thanks to Gatto Nero and GWC I have been able to get fairly current info on the level of the lake so as to see how much freeboard I have at my dock. Today, I noticed the last reading from DES on the lake level is 1600 or 4:00pm yesterday. With more rain since then, does anyone know what is happening to the lake level. Yesterday, it seemed to hold at about 505.40.

Silver Duck

05-21-2006, 06:29 PM

I was out earlier today, obeying the restriction, and nearly got run over several times! And, it wasn't just the fishermen. One of Capt. Bonehead's relatives in a bowrider loaded with kids went flying by about 30 feet away. :eek: One large cruiser (I think that it might have been Manitou) went by pushing a wake that, when it reached the dock, shot up between the boards to more than knee high!

I saw exactly one other boat trying to go along with the NWZ (other than those that were trolling - and they don't count! :D )

Somehow, I don't think that voluntary is going to cut it. If a lakewide NWZ is going to happen, the MP will need to make it mandatory. But, hopefully by next weekend the lake will be down to a reasonable level again and it won't be needed!

Silver Duck

jeffk

05-21-2006, 07:53 PM

Unfortunately I think we are out of time. Bizer states that when the Lakeport dam has an outflow of 1920 CFS the lake level can be dropped about an inch a day. They are currently running the dam at about 2300 CFS outflow and the lake level is still rising (just a pinch looking at the lakeport dam data). Given best case the lake could lowered maybe 6 inches over the next 5 days still leaving it about 8 inches above normal full lake. Past high water peaks have taken 2 - 3 weeks to get down to the full lake level.

My dock is currently under water, dropping the lake 6 inches would mean that any boat that put out a moderate wake would swamp my dock next weekend. I'm sure that there is significant shoreline damage being done and the shore is already weakened because of all the runoff.

I was looking forward to zippy boating next weekend as much as anyone else but there's just too much water to get rid of in 5 days. They should start telling everyone that it's mandatory now so the message has time to circulate.

BroadHopper

05-21-2006, 08:01 PM

I have to echo Silver Duck comment. I took a cruise today from Minge Cove to Sleepers Island and several boats were planing. One cruiser was at 'high wake' speed. The MP will have to make it mandatory. Hopefully the lake level will be back to normal by July. :)

Seaplane Pilot

05-22-2006, 06:54 AM

This so called voluntary no-wake is a farce. Boats were bombing by all weekend, oblivious to the people that are suffering tremendous damage to their property. This is an outrage and needs to be addressed both short term and long term. These boneheads at DES won't even let a tree be cut down, yet one boat going by throwing up a wake with these high lake levels does more damage than anything. I urge everyone who is affected by this to call marine patrol today. Even better, lets all call the state reps such as Johnson and Pilliard who were so outspoken on the speed limit bill. Now's their chance to take some action that will really benefit someone.:fire:

SIKSUKR

05-22-2006, 06:57 AM

Lake Lady 6

05-22-2006, 07:29 AM

The VOLUNTARY NO WAKE IS NOT EFFECTIVE. In years when it was "mandatory" many boaters ignored it but it did help the situation. The Wini Derby was no problem. The Marine Patrol asked for cooperation via the marine radio from the fishermen which should have been heard by anyone operating on the lake (if they had their radio on). The fishermen were trolling and therefore not causing a wake. As for the pleasure boats, there were fewer than usual for a weekend but they were either unaware of the Marine Patrol request or chose to ignore it. Witnessed one cruiser throwing a large wake and a Marine Patrol boat in the area - expected the Marine Patrol might have stopped the cruiser just to politely inform them of the request for NO WAKE. No way. . .
Today's wind is causing havoc along the shoreline. We are experiencing high waves washing over the dock and shoreline. Thankfully there won't be many boats out today.
Memorial Day weekend will be a huge problem if there is no restriction in place.

dlindberg

05-22-2006, 07:36 AM

Question, Why blame the people on the lake this past weekend. MAybe just maybe a good potion of these people did not know. Had they not been on this site or reading a lakes region newspaper how wood they. To properly do it in the am until a certain hour they choud have sat on all the ramps and TOLd the people or a paid a kid 8 bucks an hour to hand out fliers at all the ramps. Don't blame the boaters that is absurd. Most people would be excited to get their botas on the water for the first time on a nice day!

Why would you build your dock below or at full lake, doesn't make any sense to me??

codeman671

05-22-2006, 08:16 AM

Why would you build your dock below or at full lake, doesn't make any sense to me??

if you built your dock high enough for it to be above current water level (1ft above full lake) it would look ridiculous for most of the season when the water is well below full lake. Being that high also could damage the sides your boat if not bumpered well when the water is down. I agree that building one below full lake is foolish but around the full lake mark seems to be a happy medium.

Rattlesnake Gal

05-22-2006, 08:23 AM

We did not witness any of the fishermen throwing wakes on Saturday or Sunday during the derby - thank you!
But… there were plenty of other boaters, including the Mount that was not being considerate. :(
:confused: If damage to occurs from a boat creating a large wake, can they be held responsible for it?
The biggest piece of debris that came to our dock was a very large, cut log. There were plenty of sticks and smaller limbs floating around, even one with a pretty nice lure attached. (Makes up for the two my son lost.) Many of the lake residents have had to place weights on their docks to help curb any damage.
If you lost an Ingram Micro baseball hat, I retrieved it for you. :laugh:

Seaplane Pilot

05-22-2006, 08:27 AM

Woodsy

05-22-2006, 08:27 AM

RG...

Yes a boat owner is responsible for damage caused by thier wake.

Seaplane...

If a boater truly doesn't know about the restriction, and the restriction is voluntary, you really can't get too mad. There was very little press about the voluntary NWZ.

I chose not to go out on the boat at all this weekend.

Woodsy

Seaplane Pilot

05-22-2006, 08:37 AM

Seaplane...

If a boater truly doesn't know about the restriction, and the restriction is voluntary, you really can't get too mad. There was very little press about the voluntary NWZ.

Woodsy

C'mon Woodsy, what happened to common sense? Everything is underwater, yet a boater (even the Mt. Washington according to RG) is throwing up wakes that cause even more damage. Does everything have to be a mandate these days?

KPW

05-22-2006, 08:45 AM

The lake is now higher that it was in 1998 and approaching the all time high from 1984.

If we needed a NWZ in 1998 why don't we need one now?

I was on the island this weekend and the level was not as high, at least not visually, as it was in 1998.

I had to leave the sundeck quite a few times when the boats were not voluntarily traveling at headway speed.
:eek:

codeman671

05-22-2006, 08:54 AM

C'mon Woodsy, what happened to common sense? Everything is underwater, yet a boater (even the Mt. Washington according to RG) is throwing up wakes that cause even more damage. Does everything have to be a mandate these days?

I don't recall common sense being something that is checked when a dealership is selling a boat to a potential buyer. We've all seen enough idiots on the lake that probably should not even be driving a tricycle although they are tooling around in a 30' cruiser.

Seaplane Pilot

05-22-2006, 08:58 AM

I don't recall common sense being something that is checked when a dealership is selling a boat to a potential buyer. We've all seen enough idiots on the lake that probably should not even be driving a tricycle although they are tooling around in a 30' cruiser.

Codeman - you are correct. I guess it's wishful thinking on my part. The ironic thing is that Cap't. Bonehead probably had to wade through 6" of water on his dock to get to his 30' cruiser.

Bear Islander

05-22-2006, 09:31 AM

I think a big part of this problem is that people don't understand what is going on. How often do any of us look back and see the problems our wake may be causing.

When you see with your own eyes topsoil being washed into the lake that is your drinking water, or when you watch a line of docks jump up and down, you start to get the idea.

Tir Na Nog

05-22-2006, 10:06 AM

By that I mean that it does not seem that the State or boating facilites (Marinas and such) are getting the word out. I went out of Goodhue Hawkins on Satuday morning, but they were not sure that the NWZ had been declared. I stuck in the area of Wolfeboro Bay, Parker's and Barndoor, and around that area boats were doing more than headway speed when not close to the shore line. If you had not been checking this board before the weekend you may not have known of the problem or the request for a voluntary NWZ. In 1998, that was the second year I had a boat on Winni and the NWZ was very well posted. Although for some it may be common sense to expect a NWZ, for others that are not familiar with the problems created by high water, it is not as obvious. The State should be posting, rather than relying on limited media coverage and word of mouth.

TomC

05-22-2006, 10:35 AM

If its not a rule (that gets enforced), it is probably a case of the boat operator's desire to get wherever they are going exceeding the concern for the consequences to an anonymous property owner. ..

jrc

05-22-2006, 11:06 AM

I'm probably one of the people you are all complaining about. But let me tell you my side of the story. These floods occur about every ten years. When I built my house, I had to build everything for the 100 year flood. No lake front owner should have been surprised that this could happen. These rains were predicted on all the TV news days before, no one should have been surprised they were coming.

When docks were flooded in 84 and 98, did the owners improve them to prevent damage? When the TV predicted a foot of rain last weekend did owners prepare? Did they remove or secure loose dock sections? Did they sandbag sensitive areas? Did they do anything to help themselves?

When I went out this weekend, I did my best to prevent damage. I idled much further for shore than I normally would, at least 500' feet. But I did come up on plane and make a wake after that. If there was a mandatory no-wake I would have obeyed or stayed in dock. If there was a chance of my wake injuring someone, I would have stayed in dock.

I have the same sympathy for people who have property damage, as I do for people you build too close to the ocean.

Dams and other human devices have only a limited ability to control nature. The lake will flood every few years. Prepare for it. Don't expect the entire lake to shutdown for you.

Bear Islander

05-22-2006, 11:30 AM

jrc

You are so without a clue I don't know where to start. I assume the real reason you didn't obey the recommended speed is because you didn't want to.

When you live on an island a dock is not a luxury its a necessity. Sorry I didn't rebuild mine out of titanium so you can go fast 100% of the time. Many of my neighbors have no idea there is a problem and couldn't do anything if they did. One lives in Michigan and another in California.

However you are assuming this is just about docks. You forgot Loon nests, erosion, drinking water, septic infiltration etc..

Have fun this weekend Captain.

Mink Islander

05-22-2006, 12:11 PM

Why is it so terribly unreasonable to ask boaters to go headway speed for a few short weeks in order to protect property and the environment from further unnecessary damage? Your "blame the victim" attitude is little more than a petty rationalization so you can "justify" your poor citizenship in the lakes community. You exemplify precisely why a temporary but mandatory NW ordinance is needed before this weekend.

I've forwarded your post to the Dept of Safety, making exactly that point to them. Thanks for sharing.

Orion

05-22-2006, 12:29 PM

If your purpose is to quickly get from one part of the lake to another, take the car around. Otherwise just enjoy the pleasure of the boat ride a little longer and slower. We all like boating anyway, don't we. It's a lot more quiet as well, and you get to enjoy the scenery longer. You'll also not be pounding the waves and can actually have pleasant conversations in the boat while on your cruise.

Mink and Bear Islanders are right on!

Gatto Nero

05-22-2006, 12:31 PM

This is not meant as a justification for not following the suggested NWZ. That should be common sense. Unfortunately, I too saw lots of boats going at full tilt yesterday, some at less than 150' from my dock. But, in all honesty, the damage that was caused was nothing compared to what is going on today with the waves caused by wind. I am seeing consistent 2' waves pounding my shore and dock. It would take a fleet of cruisers doing about 15 knots to do the kind of damage I'm seeing today.

Seaplane Pilot

05-22-2006, 12:36 PM

NonVoting Taxpayer

05-22-2006, 12:49 PM

Hey jrc, just curious, where were you going that it was so necessary for you to go out on your boat when the lake was so high and they were asking for no wakes? Are you one of those people who drives around the barricades when they are doing road construction?

KonaChick

05-22-2006, 01:01 PM

JRC..when i heard the rains were coming I tried to move back my 175' of shoreline but my husband and I got tired of all the shoveling....:rolleye2:

Russtic

05-22-2006, 01:12 PM

"Mandatory common sense" by way of a mandatory lake-wide NWZ is needed for a couple weeks. A small price to pay to preserve the lake.
Russtic

tricia1218

05-22-2006, 01:51 PM

You are going to be sadly dissappointed if you are expecting manditory common sense to prevent damage. This is a society that has on Coffee cups "Hot" and on plastic bags "please do not place on head."

Not trying to be a smart***, just pointing out a fact.

topwater

05-22-2006, 01:52 PM

Common sense, the dictionary describes it as, A VIRTUE THAT 95% OF BOATERS DON'T HAVE ! If you fall into the 5% don't do any bashing, you know I'm correct !! With that said, the MOTTO of this great state we live in is " LIVE FREE OR DIE " which means you should be able to do what you want-when you want to, IF it is not againest the law! This is a wonderful state we live in, its just to bad we can't all get along. It will never happen , people will always think they have every right and the next person has none, because it happens to THEM ! If all the Island property owners got together and published a few phamplets and posted at thier respective launches, it might make a difference. I KNOW- I KNOW it shouldn't cost YOU any money, but the state will do nothing because it is not a mandatory NWZ. Just my thought on the subject. No need to bash anyone, this is not directed at anyone, just MY thoughts. OH and Yes I have a boat and I do go On Winnie alot, however did not take the boat out this weekend due to the high waters everywhere.

DRH

05-22-2006, 02:30 PM

Sitting at the Weirs yesterday,I watched 95% of the boats I could see get up on plane.Everyone that went between Eagle and Governors seemed to hold their speed.Are the no-wake bouys in place yet in that area?I couldn't see any from the Weirs. SIKSIKR - the No Wake markers between Governor's and Eagle Islands have been in place for at least a month.

Grant

05-22-2006, 03:09 PM

I'm probably one of the people you are all complaining about. But let me tell you my side of the story.

...(message truncated)...

I have the same sympathy for people who have property damage, as I do for people you build too close to the ocean.

Dams and other human devices have only a limited ability to control nature. The lake will flood every few years. Prepare for it. Don't expect the entire lake to shutdown for you.

Man, this is so beyond ignorant on so many levels that I really shouldn't respond. I should get up and walk away from the computer now.

Have you considered the many docks that sustained considerable ice damage last winter? (Obviously, no,) Believe it or not, SOME of those docks are owned by folks who've not yet returned to the Lake, or who have not yet had time (or secured the permits) to make the necessary repairs. Factor in some exceptionally high water and UNNECESSARY wake action, and the damage is compounded. We had some major ice damage at our place, and have begun the process to make the repairs. It happens -- like high water and wind-generated wave action. But such repairs require wetlands impact permits, etc. It takes time. Lots of time. Lots of money, too.

I was on the Lake in May and June of 1984, when the water went way over the docks. There was no NWZ imposed then, and for much of the time the Lake remained blissfully calm. And those few boats on the Lake during the period kept the speeds down and wakes to a minimum. Know why? It was Good old-fashioned common sense and courtesy in a small (perhaps symbolic or -gasp!- neighborly) attempt to do what we could. It wasn't "all about us."

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that attitudes such as jrc's are more often the rule than the exception these days. But, hey, to each his own. Live free and kiss my butt.

jrc

05-22-2006, 03:14 PM

Great Idea

05-22-2006, 04:07 PM

We were out at our place on Sat/Sun and waves from the passing boats were coming 15 to 20 feet into our yard. jrc's attitude is no surprise. One boat went by three times with a large butt dragging wake just so they could get another look at the "spectacle" and water crawling like a small tsunami into our yard. They even took pictures! UNBELIEVABLE. 2 areas of the shoreline have already failed and 2-3 more areas are soon to follow if we get the normal Memorial Day traffic and cabin cruiser parade. The damage to our property may well be in the thousands of dollars or more? Probably not worth arqueing with folks like those who took pixs of it or those like jrc since they don't really cares unless it is happening directly to them. I will however share it with Marine Patrol in hopes they might see the light and do something before someone else experiences significant damage also. Please do what you can follow forum members and spread the word that NO WAKE is the right thing to do over the next couple of weeks. Thanks in advance for your help. Slow down and enjoy the ride.

Bear Islander

05-22-2006, 05:19 PM

jrc

If somebody hits my dock section I will give them an apology and pay for the damage if my insurance won't. That's because I take responsibility for my actions. You should try it sometime.

I hope you don't go through life thinking your actions are acceptable just because they're not illegal. Anyway you ARE legally responsible for any damage done by your wake.

ITD

05-22-2006, 05:33 PM

Well, I knew I would take a verbal bashing here, so I'm not going to complain. I decided to boat as my recreation. Yes, I could have choosen to pick a different activity. Some of you decided to own an island or shorefront home as a recreation. You could have bought a house in the mountains. Your choice does not trump mine. Your dock is no more necessary than my boat. I broke no laws and actually adjusted my activities to suit the conditions. The fact that I didn't completely comply with the urging of our MP is my choice. I applied the spirit of the suggestion and avoided wakes near shore.

The owner and operators of the Mount Washinton made the same choice. The Mount was out all weekend. She ran at her normal speed, with no more than a dozen passengers on board.

Bear Islander, a few weeks from now, when someone runs into the dock section you lost will you pay to repair his boat? Why didn't you at least tie some rope to the sections so they wouldn't get away. When you repair this dock will you build it for the next flood in about 2016, or will just expect me to watch out for you again? I'm not saying platinum, just high enough and sturdy enough for the normal Winnipesaukee flood conditions.

Sadly this is the attitude that I feared would occur with a "voluntary" lakewide no wake zone.
What you are failing to consider here jrc is the amount of silt and junk your wake is dragging into the lake as you tool around. Also the damage to the shoreline that you are causing. I know it requires a little sacrifice, but a week or two at headway speed isn't a big deal and the lake will be better for it. It's not just about Bear's dock, or a few homes that are in the flood plain. I think as long as the lake is as flooded as it is now there should be a mandatory lake wide no wake zone. The NWZ should stay in effect until the lake is within a couple of inches of full lake.

Knomad

05-22-2006, 06:19 PM

I would hope that the property owners do not take the comments of a few irresponsible boat owners as being a majority opinion. Though our lake property is our slip and our boat, I think most boat owners appreciate and respect the concerns of the land owners.
I spent all day Monday with the help of "neighbors" filling and pilling up sandbags and was able to keep my residence dry from the backwater of the Merrimack river. The least I can do to help my lake neighbors from sustaining any damage to their property.

jrc

05-22-2006, 06:37 PM

jrc

If somebody hits my dock section I will give them an apology and pay for the damage if my insurance won't. That's because I take responsibility for my actions. You should try it sometime...

Bear Islander has earn my respect with this and I take him at his word. I'm actually sorry I called him out in my last post, I should not have gotten personal.

I always take resposibility for my actions, how have I ducked them? I came on this forum and admitted what I did.

jrc
...I hope you don't go through life thinking your actions are acceptable just because they're not illegal. Anyway you ARE legally responsible for any damage done by your wake.

I'm sorry, but in our society we are governed by laws. My actions were acceptable because they were legal and I did no damage. I was at least 500 feet from shore before I made a wake. How big is my wake at 500 feet? Could you even measure it's effect versus the damage caused by flooding and wind driven waves.

I have focused on damage to human structures mainly because the jury is still out on environmental issues. Many environmentalist will argue that although floods cause short term damage, in the long run they are good for the ecosystem. Why do you think they are always trying to get dams removed.

Rinkerfam

05-22-2006, 11:14 PM

By Memorial Day weekend 2005, I had already been on my boat three times. As I post this reply, I have not yet seen my boat this season. If the lake level does not improve by this weekend, even though it will cause me great mental anguish, my boating will be limited to "headway speed" if I go out at all. Preservation of the lake as well as a consideration for those who live on her shores are the underlying motivation for me.

Mee-n-Mac

05-22-2006, 11:25 PM

{snip}
I'm sorry, but in our society we are governed by laws. My actions were acceptable because they were legal and I did no damage. I was at least 500 feet from shore before I made a wake. How big is my wake at 500 feet? Could you even measure it's effect versus the damage caused by flooding and wind driven waves.
{snip}

While I don't entirely disagree that we as waterfront-ers and dock-ers should take the primary responsibility for proactively limiting the damage due to unusual weather / flooding, I don't think that means you should do whatever you want. I don't mean this in a strictly legal sense but rather in a common courtesy sense. A parallel might be a case of conflicting lawn parties. You might have one every weekend and play the music you like at or under the legal limit. I might have one special occasion (say a wedding) where I'd like to not hear your music that day. Knowing this is a unusual and not frequent occasion I would hope that you'd respect my wish and hold off for that short time, not because you are legally reguired to but rather because it's the courteous thing to do.

As to the damage caused by wakes on docks ... it's going to depend on the dock and wake size obviously. I saw a number of boats on plane up and down Alton Bay this weekend, some leaving bigger wakes than others. The wind today did more damage (to 2 docks up and down from ours) than those wakes did. Put more boats out there and have the wakes combine (think next weekend) and it might have been a different story. While I'd like to be able to authoritatively tell you at what distance your wake will have diminished to some inconsequential size, I can't. I can say I've watched the wakes come from boats across the bay (1000+ ft away) and they look to be the same size as 100 ft away. It wouldn't surprise me if it took more than a mile to reduce a wake to "small". It's on my "got nuthin better to do list" to measure some day.

As to a mandatory lake wide NWZ - now that the fishing derby has passed I'll guess it'll happen. The authorities need to implement it now and get the word out if they want any meaningful compliance come next weekend, when it'll be needed (assuming we now can't get the lake down 6+"). I talked to 2 neighbors, both with boats and neither had heard of the voluntary NWS restriction this weekend. Neither would I, had it not been for the forum.

Grant

05-23-2006, 05:54 AM

You can mandate no-wake zones and speed limits, but not common sense.

Bear Islander

05-23-2006, 07:46 AM

You are correct Grant.

And if everybody had common sense, and used it, we wouldn't need so many laws.

Woodsy

05-23-2006, 07:56 AM

Woodsy's Prediction for the Weekend...

Sometime during the day friday, a mandatory NWZ will be implemented. This will be implemented on friday so as to minimize the impact to local businesses from people cancelling thier weekend plans... gotta love that 24hr cancellation rule all the hotels/motels have.

At the risk of getting lynched...

As far this debate goes, it is a silly p*ss*ng contest between the haves (waterfront property owners) and the have nots (tourists & non property owning boaters). Niether interest trumps the other. If the lake wide NWZ was voluntary, then jrc did nothing wrong. He is under no legal obligation at all to limit his activities because a bunch of property owners didn't build thier docks properly. In fact, IF (thats a big IF) his wake damaged a dock, I don't think the dock owner would have ANY legal recourse. Although he is responsible for the damage his wake causes, I doubt a court would find him responsible for damaging a dock that was built below the high water mark, essentially an making it an improperly built dock.

Shoreline Erosion is an issue to be sure, and boat wakes don't help. But erosion is a natural process. If the NH DES was concerned about shoreline erosion they too would have asked for a lake-wide NWZ. I suspect we will hear from them before the weekend.

Alot of you speak about common sense. Its really kind of funny because it is strictly from your point of view, most vocal are the waterfront property owners. Just because the lake is 13" high, you expect everyone to know enough to slow down. Most people don't know how high the lake is. A small blurb in the local newspaper does not an informed public make. Unlike 1998, this was not a well covered media event. You cannot expect someone to behave in a different manner if they are not informed.

As an informed individual, I have left my boat tied to the dock.

Woodsy

KonaChick

05-23-2006, 08:54 AM

It is YOUR responsibility as a boat owner to know the conditions of the body of water you are boating on. With such easy access to the internet and so many different publications it's not difficult to find out.

Island Lover

05-23-2006, 12:27 PM

Hi Woodsy

Since there is a guy on the lake with a $700,000.00 Nor-Tec boat I'm not sure the boaters are really the "have nots". Plus there are quite a few performance boats and Carvers that cost more than waterfront property.

There a many families that have a small cabin on the water because 75 years ago grandfather paid $200 for a lot and built it on weekends. Some are blue collar folk that have a problem coming up with the taxes every year. They live in fear that they will have to sell the family heirloom if property values get to crazy.

Some cabins are owned by multiple families, a cabin near me has four owners that timeshare.

Your have and have not theory doesn't hold water.

Woodsy

05-23-2006, 01:35 PM

Island Lover...

You missed my point. This is about what the waterfront property owners want vs what is best for the general public. I am just pointing out that there is more than one point of view on this issue.

Waterfront property owners are approaching this problem from your point of view, essentially your wallet. You don't want the additional cost of repairing your dock. I don't blame you. However, had the dock been built to height greater than the high water mark, you wouldn't have this problem. 13" inches above full lake does not make this a flood of epic proportions.

As I have stated before there are many competing interests, waterfront property owners, businesses, public access and use etc. It is very difficult to balance these competing interests. In the end no one is truly happy with the compromises the politicians will come up with.

I understand that some struggle to make the tax payments. Lake Winnipesaukee property values have skyrocketed, driven by other folks who can afford to pay the taxes. I wish I had the luxury of being in a position that allowed me to afford both a primary residence and a waterfront vacation residence. Sadly I do not...

BTW, The $700K Nortech owner has a nice property on the water... He is a "Have".

An article on WMUR... http://www.wmur.com/news/9260614/detail.html

Woodsy

Dave R

05-23-2006, 02:09 PM

I tend to agree with Woodsy on this one. One should consider nature a bit more when contructing a dock or residence. Leaving a dock in for the Winter (and sustaining unknown damage) and then being unable to tend to it during an accurately forecasted heavy rain spell, to me, is a pretty irresponsible thing to do. That dock could very well become the debris we all hate to see floating around in the lake. Frankly, I'd rather see beer cans, given the choice; at least they won't sink a boat or rip off a lower unit and make a big oily mess.

That said, I'm keeping my boat out of Winnipesaukee until the NWZ request is lifted. Just cuz I can legally make waves does not mean I will... I do feel empathy for those who did not plan well and hope the damage you sustain is minimal.

KonaChick

05-23-2006, 03:10 PM

Orion

05-23-2006, 03:14 PM

You guys are missing the point. The docks are not the main concern. When the water submerged them, those that were vulnerable were generally damaged at that point as the decking floated off. While there may still be some docks that could sustain further damage due to wave action, those would likely be far and few between. On the other hand, nearly the entire shoreline has some soil areas that are now under water. The wave action is deteriorating those areas, damaging the erosion control plant life and undermining waterfront tree root systems. It is also causing siltation as the sediments are washed into the lake and creating areas for weed beds to grow. I won't even mention formerly fertilized grass areas that are now awash.

Woodsy

05-23-2006, 03:34 PM

Just to be clear,

I am not arguing for or against a lake-wide NWZ. I am just pointing out that there are competing interests at work.

I respected the voluntary NWZ and kept my boat at the dock this past weekend.

Woodsy

mcdude

05-23-2006, 05:05 PM

HotDog

05-23-2006, 05:49 PM

Channel 5 (Boston) just did a short blurb about Winni and the lake level. They interviewed some guy from DES who stated that at this rate it would be mid-June before the lake level was back to "normal".

yeah new 9 WMUR also had that guy and a NH marine patrol come up and ask everone to go headway speed (not mandatory) this weekend. it also can be found @ www.wmur.com

Paugus Bay Resident

05-23-2006, 06:37 PM

WMUR as well, here's the link http://www.wmur.com/news/9260614/detail.html

Aquadeziac

05-23-2006, 07:45 PM

jrc

05-23-2006, 09:37 PM

Lets see. If jrc is out in a fancy restaurant and I walk up near him and fart in close proximity to his $40 NY Steak, I am doing nothing illegal. But I am being inconsiderate....among other things. How did you say you like your steak, jrc? :laugh: :laugh:

Well that's a cute story, but not really a good analogy. If you read my posts, you will see that I made an effort, even though I had no legal obligation to do so. You may think I didn't make enough of an effort and you're entitled to that opinion. In your fart story you're trying to ruin my meal. If you accidentally fart near me, well those things happen.

Just so you know where I coming from, I've paid my dues. I owned a condo for years, right on the broads. I paid the fees every year to fix the dock damage. I had my boat bent and broken against the docks by waves and wakes. I've been on the bow of my boat hanging on to a mooring ball with all my strength as boats blasted by 20 feet away. I've out been in the dingy, looking through the crests. This is just the cost of being on the lake. When 3 foot waves were crashing on our dock, and boats were putting huge wakes on top of that, they never shut the lake down for us.

jrc

05-23-2006, 10:13 PM

BTW I never said that I was against a lake wide no wake zone. There was no NWZ when I went out and I knew I was behaving. Do I trust my fellow humans to behave on Memorial Day weekend? I'm on the fence.

This really is a seperate question from my original point. Which was that lake front property owners can't expect me to give up my rights, just to protect them from something they should have planned for and mitigated against.

I'm giving up on this thread now. If you want to bash or fart, please do it by PM.

Frdxplorer

05-24-2006, 12:49 AM

Alot of people have called JRC ignorant or something of the sort. Although I would love to see everyone tool around at headway, JRC seems to at least be rational. That is alot more than can be said for some morons. And it is hard to know the circumstances behind every driver.

Alot of people have eluded to common sense. One definition on Websters states as follows..."2 : sound and prudent but often unsophisticated judgment"
While perhaps not popular, I have to believe that JRC's behavior falls within this definition. Few, if any, of us are experts. We must all use our own judgement. I am in no position to judge JRC's determination that he was far enough from shore to cause little or no damage.

Again, I would encourage all boaters to obey the NWZ and play it safe.

Belmont Resident

05-24-2006, 05:30 AM

To get respect you have to give respect. I've told my sons that you do not automatically warrant respect nor do you respect anyone just because they are an adult.
Many adults now a day do not deserve respect. Many do!
As with the issues on the lake, many property owners post here behind a screen name stating whatever comes to mind no matter who it hurts. You talk to many boaters and they will say right out they have no respect for property owners. Why because many, not all, act as if they are the sole owner of their domain and all the water in front of it. Sure you pay taxes on that property for the right to have that nice view, but that view comes at the cost of knowing that the property you value is also open to public use.
Sit back and read some of the postings and you wonder why boaters do not care about property damage. You push NWZ, speed limits and complain about things that they have no control over just because you want control over the water.
Maybe you had a bad experience with some boaters, there are some real winners out there. But not all of use are disrespectful, but when you lump us all into a category and judge us as inconsiderate just because of what we choose to drive, how fast we like to go or weather we like to tie up, raft and hang with friends then do not expect us to care when you desire our cooperation to keep your property from washing into the lake.
It goes both ways!!!!

ApS

05-24-2006, 06:11 AM

Reading some of the replies as to why there shouldn't be a NWZ lakewide reminds me of my teenage son and how he argues about being responsible. He always has some spin on it as to why his irresponsible actions are okay. What I suggest property owners do this weekend is make sure your video cameras are all charged up and get out there and start filming! As the law states you are responsible for your wake and any damage it causes. Get it on film and if someone's wake causes damage to your property record it and get the tape to Marine Patrol.
1) Although yours is the most sensible answer to a wake damage claim, much of the damage occurs in increments -- like a "death of a thousand cuts".

I've only heard of one successful wake damage claim, and that was in Maine, is taking ten years to prosecute, and involved a fatality.

2) As to "why his irresponsible actions are okay", we've seen that urge didn't get it last weekend.

We've also seen that "wakes disappear after 500 feet (http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showpost.php?p=31964&postcount=82)", and that urge really means "optional".

3) In prior years, there was complete compliance with a lake-wide NWZ — and I was especially pleased to see it. Since 1998's NWZ though, there are about 30,000 new boats/boaters in New Hampshire: Plus, we're witnessing a Marine Patrol that appears increasingly "enforcement-averse".

Is there mention of such high-water NWZs on the boater's test, and isn't education the only way to eliminate such behavior? :confused:

Solution:
Docks (and shorelines) need to be 6 inches higher. :rolleye2:

jkjoshuatree

05-24-2006, 07:00 AM

Why Can't We All Just Get Along!!!!!!!

Mink Islander

05-24-2006, 07:02 AM

Please don't try to turn this into a class issue -- boaters vs. lake front property owners. It's not at all about that. The lake is very high. It's damaging property and the environment (shoreline). There's a large amount of debris in the water that also creates significant additional boating hazards. To ask the boating community (which actually includes the lakefront property owners too) to go headway speed for a couple of weeks once every 10 years or so when we have exceedingly high water isn't much to ask, frankly. The state is expressly asking the boating public to do that. They're not saying, "use your judgement to decide how fast to go" -- reason being everyone can debate ad nauseum what will or won't create damaging wakes, is a safe speed, etc.

The request is as simple as it is reasonable -- go headway speed everywhere on the lake until lake levels have returned to more seasonal levels.

Seaplane Pilot

05-24-2006, 07:39 AM

It's really amazing to read some of these posts. The Town of Hooksett can impose a travel ban on the entire city during the floods, yet nobody blinks an eye. However, the suggestion to impose a mandatory no wake zone turns into a class war! You, Cap't Bonehead have every right to use the lake, just as everyone else does. However, you have no right whatsoever to cause damage to my property by your actions - in this case making waves that cause dock damage and further shoreline erosion. Therefore, I believe it is your responsibility to alter your actions to prevent damage to my property during these unusual conditions.

Here's the best way to resolve this: Call Marine Patrol 603-293-2037 and tell Director Barrett your position - either impose the mandatory no wake zone or don't impose it. A voluntary no wake zone is a joke and might as well not exist. My vote is for the mandatory no wake zone and Director Barrett has received the message.

JTA

05-24-2006, 09:21 AM

I think we're under a voluntary no wake request. I arrived yesterday and putted the two miles out to my place on Cow Is. Every boat I've seen since has been up on plane except one which was plowing water thinking that that was "headway speed"? The resulting wake was greater than being on plane. No wake means SLOW .. NO WAKE!
There was a bass tournament years ago during a no wake period. The bassers who went by my place were going as fast as they could without going up on plane. As a result, they plowed a pretty good wake. Most bass boats leave hardly a ripple when they are up on a plane.
Anyway, my point is that a voluntary no wake request won't work on this coming weekend.

SAMIAM

05-24-2006, 10:23 AM

Ouch !........Poor jrc is just getting HAMMERED.....and everyone has legitimate concerns about erosion,dock damage,loon nesting etc. The only point I bring up in his defense is the fact that wind generated waves are bigger than most boat wakes and I'm wondering what the point is of going headway speed while plowing through 2' swells.
At least I don't have to rake my beach this year........it's under water.
:rolleye1:

KonaChick

05-24-2006, 11:24 AM

It will always be this way on certain issues reguarding the lake..the daytrippers/renters against the lakefront homeowners. Perhaps us as lakefront property owners have a more long term vision concerning what happens at the lake as compared to a live for the moment mentality. Just a thought.....

Orion

05-24-2006, 11:25 AM

...I'm wondering what the point is of going headway speed while plowing through 2' swells.

There actually is a reason to still go slow due to the compounding effect of the wind as it acts on boat-generated waves, creating much larger waves because it has a surface to push on. There is no question that the wind is doing plenty of damage though. Too bad.

Dave R

05-24-2006, 02:56 PM

There actually is a reason to still go slow due to the compounding effect of the wind as it acts on boat-generated waves, creating much larger waves because it has a surface to push on. There is no question that the wind is doing plenty of damage though. Too bad.

Brings up an interesting philosophical question. Is the shoreline erosion really "damage" or just change? Lets face it, the shoreline is constantly eroding and always will be. Even with no boat traffic at all, I bet this naturally occuring flood would cause more erosion than all the boat traffic of the last few years during "full lake" and lower periods.

ITD

05-24-2006, 03:47 PM

Brings up an interesting philosophical question. Is the shoreline erosion really "damage" or just change? Lets face it, the shoreline is constantly eroding and always will be. Even with no boat traffic at all, I bet this naturally occuring flood would cause more erosion than all the boat traffic of the last few years during "full lake" and lower periods.

Let's delve a little deeper into this question. Had the dam never been built, would the lake still be flooded? I'm not so sure it would be. The dam was effectively closed during the worst of the flooding, my understanding is that this is done to help areas further downstream that flood very easily and would have suffered much more damage. The price we pay to help our neighbors. Ah, help our neighbors, what a concept, apparently doesn't apply to some boaters.......

Mee-n-Mac

05-24-2006, 04:22 PM

Let's delve a little deeper into this question. Had the dam never been built, would the lake still be flooded? {snip}

Well of course it would have been ;) Naturally w/o the dam the lake level would have been feet lower than is considered normal these days and the rise due to rain much less than what happened but I'm sure people would still be complaining about how "flooded" the lake is ... err ... would be. Then again w/o the dam the norm would be more frequent, large rises and drops in lake level so perhaps people would be used to such deviations. ;)

Lakegeezer

05-24-2006, 08:06 PM

Thanks to those who minimize their wake. It is appreciated.

Boat wake may be 90 degrees from the wind, and impacts the lake much differently than wind. It is twice as bad for the lake shore to be hit with both wind and wake.

If there is another flood within a year or two, it is more than coincidence. It should be considered as evidence of climate change.

I wonder what the real damage will be. The shoreline has been eroded. There has been a heavy dose of silt added to the lake. The lake ecosystem has experienced a second flood within seven months. The impact to the lake might take five years to recover if no more episodic events occur.

Sailboats, kayaks and cameras is my Memorial day weekend theme.

All the web gathered data from the state's monitoring sites points out that the dam operators are doing a good job. They estimate three weeks till normal water level. I believe them.

Kevin C

05-24-2006, 11:31 PM

It will always be this way on certain issues reguarding the lake..the daytrippers/renters against the lakefront homeowners.Please don't generalize about the "daytrippers/renters against the landowners". I for one fall into the former category and have thusfar respected the NWZ by staying away from the boat and lake that I love and respect.

I feel as though some members of the forum eat their young.

Mee-n-Mac

05-25-2006, 04:27 AM

{snip}
I feel as though some members of the forum eat their young.

Only the tasty ones ! :eek: :D

Kevin C

05-25-2006, 08:14 AM

Only the tasty ones ! :eek: :D

Tastes like chicken!! :laugh: :laugh:

rander7823

05-25-2006, 08:44 AM

With all of the fuss you are all making I am wondering if we should rethink our trip to the lake this year. My parents had brought my brother and myself up to the lake in the mid seventy's and My wife and are started bringing our 3 girls up 4 years ago and they love it. We rent a condo at Samoset and are going to be up the July 8-15th, but it sounds like the lake is a mess. Are things going to be back to "normal" by then? There isn't much of a beach to begin with there and we were planning to take them out on the Mt Washington, but a three hour cruise sounds like it will turn into a trip on the SS Minnow.

Are the skee ball games at the Weirs under water?:liplick:

KonaChick

05-25-2006, 09:20 AM

Kevin C true...not all daytrippers/renters fall into the "live for the moment category" , I should have said some...that's why the last sentence I posted was.. "Just a thought". I feel this way about renters from personal experience. The place next to use was rented on and off througout the summer. I can't tell you how disrespectful the majority of the renters were towards our beautiful lake. Disreguarding boating rules, littering, loud late into the night..the list goes on. Thank god the place was so run down that as the years went on the owner had trouble renting it out. To be honest the most respectful group that has ever rented next door were the tournament fisherman. I still feel this way that many daytrippers/renters "in general" don't respect the lake as those of us who have a more permanent vested interest do. IMHO

Zee

05-25-2006, 09:26 AM

Don't cancel your vacation! Mother Nature has a way of equalizing these situations. The water level can go down a lot in seven weeks. It is already starting to drop. This is all very temporary. The water level doesn't go down as quickly as it goes up but it will drop. The lake is as beautiful as it ever was, you just have to go slower and enjoy it more. I wouldn't be surprised if in seven weeks the level is back to its mid-summer average.

Mee-n-Mac

05-25-2006, 10:24 AM

{snip} We rent a condo at Samoset and are going to be up the July 8-15th, but it sounds like the lake is a mess. Are things going to be back to "normal" by then? There isn't much of a beach to begin with there and we were planning to take them out on the Mt Washington, but a three hour cruise sounds like it will turn into a trip on the SS Minnow.

Are the skee ball games at the Weirs under water?:liplick:

I wouldn't worry about it. By that timeframe things will have long been back to normal ... well anything due to the recent weather. Can't say how much "normality" you'll find that time of year in the Weirs area though :eek: :D