Buying our first boat!! [Archive]

Toytime

04-05-2006, 07:17 PM

Hello all!!...been lurking here for a while..sitting back..listening..learning..now I'm ready to seek advice. My wife and I are in our early 50's..mortgage is paid off...daughters are all educated and degreed...and finally..we actually have something known as excess capital we can invest in items that we CHOOSE to rather than HAVE to...YIPPEE!!..

Still young enough to have some "toys"..{hence the nickname of Toytime} so we want to buy our first boat. We went to Winnisquam Marine this past Saturday and test drove the new four winns 200 signature.. Awesome!!..

Our daughters went with us and I don't think I could have wiped the smiles off their faces with a power trowel..They absolutely loved it!!

Ahh..but here is the rub..was ready to bargain with the salesman (Very nice fella} but...was told that there is no negotiating on the price..the customer pays the price listed..period. I was rather shocked to say the least.. Now mind you, I am not cheap..more than willing to pay a fair price for a quality product, however I am used to negotiating what I feel is a fair price.

My question to any who may answer is this. Is this a common practice in purchasing a boat? A customer pays the listed price, no negotiating whatsoever, or is this unique to Winnisquam Marine only and other Marinas will talk turkey with a customer?

We are ready to buy cuz summer is about upon us and we want to be ready..but..I want to make sure we are not being financially abused..

Thanks to all who may offer us guidance..

Aquadeziac

04-05-2006, 07:32 PM

Four Winns are a super boat, I owned two of them, both bought from Winnisquam Marine. I found that their price on the boat is somewhat already discounted.....compare their price to the exact same boat at another Four Winns dealer. (You gotta compare apples and apples) At the time I compared their prices to Melvin Village. Lower by thousands. I always got outstanding treatment there. Ed & Mark run a superb outfit. They bend over backwards for all their customers. Aftersales service says a lot about a buisness.

father nukes kid

04-05-2006, 09:58 PM

I sell boats, Tahoe Sportboats. Tahoe is part of Tracker Boats. This is the only boat line that sells their boats at factory direct national pricing. We can't dicker price. All the other brands that I see, working at boat shows, can have different prices for the same product. My research "playing customer" found a $4000.00 difference in one boat. That to me is huge. On the other hand, some dealers actually price the boat lower to start with. Especially if it has been on their floorplan for too long. You may have a great deal. You should price the boat at another dealer to have a better gauge.
Good luck

jrc

04-05-2006, 10:54 PM

there's always a limit. Go to www.fourwinns.com and you can get the list price for the boat you looked at. Depending on popularity, dealership, season, etc, you should be able to get 10% to 30% off the list. I know that's a big range but it's hard to get any closer. Right now the dealers smell spring and that means buyers and that means higher prices. A 20' boat is a popular first boat and the dealer is not worried about gettting stuck with it.

You can and should ask about discounts on accessories, and future service to help the bottom line. Some will, some won't, it doesn't hurt to ask.

You may want to glance through this thread. He spent some time looking at similiar boats.

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22444#poststop

BTW I bought a new boat last fall and paid pretty close to the dealer's first price. But it was a left-over so the dealer had already put in a big discount.

Woodsy

04-06-2006, 06:35 AM

Toytime,

Definitely do some more research. 4Winns are nice, but to be honest there are alot of nice boats in that size/price range. Look at used boat values on NADA and BUC so you can get an idea of how much depreciation the model you are looking at is subject to. Some brands of boats depreciate a lot more than others. Depreciation is a KILLER when it comes to boats.

Your best bet to get a good deal was at the boat show in february. As jrc stated, its spring and that is a popular boat size. If its your first boat, you might want to look into a low hour used boat with some warranty left. It might just be a better bang for the buck.

Don't forget to get your Safe Boater Certificate!

Woodsy

Merrymeeting

04-06-2006, 08:01 AM

Toytime,

I would echo the earlier comments on Winnisquam. I actually prefer their no-dickering, no-games policy.

I bought a new Four Winns from them in 04. Like others, I researched other marinas and prices (quite a few). You will find that Winnisquam is among the lowest if not the lowest. More importantly, you will find that Ed and Co strongly stand behind their products and really know the meaning of customer service.

FWIW, I know of others, including extended family members, who would say the same.

Other than being a happy customer, I have no connection to Winnisquam Marine, nor any other benefit from this testimonial. If you would like more information, feel free to drop me an email or PM.

EllyPoinster

04-06-2006, 08:33 AM

While my purchase of a new 2002 Four Winns included a trade-in, Melvin Village Marina beat Winnisquam's price by about $400. All things being equal, I would have bought at Winnisquam, but I wasn't going to leave the money on the table. In my dealings with them I found both dealerships to be honest and professional operations. I have nothing bad to say about either one and I have been VERY pleased with the boat.

ThePlut

04-06-2006, 10:15 AM

Shopping around is always a fair and reasonable thing to do. And I strongly believe that a thing (boat, car, tv, washer and dryer) is only worth what you are willing to pay for it. If you like the Four Winns, try other Four Winns dealers, see what they are willing to do on the same boat. If this dealer has a no negotiation policy, then he either believes his price is fair (which it may be) or believes he'll sell it (if not to you, to someone else) eventually no matter what. Also, keep in mind customer service as well, saving some $$ on the boat won't be worth it if you have to suffer bad service.

Also, and Four Winns is a great product, but be sure demo other boats in that size as well (Crownline, Sea Ray, Bryant, Cobalt, etc...). Especially if you have only demo'ed the one. Run away from any dealer that won't water test the boat for you.

I work part time for a boat dealer and I can tell you first hand, everything is negotiable, anything else is a sales tactic. And just because a boat has a higher MSRP, doesn't mean that the actual deal won't end up below a lower MSRP priced brand. Don't compare on MSRP, go in, demo what you want and get an offer on the boat you want. Don't be afraid to tell dealers what other boats you are looking at either, that's a motivator for many.

I also echo what others have said, 20' is a popular size and many are traded in for larger sizes in the fall and early spring, so check around local dealers. I know the dealer I work for had 4 20' ers traded in, '05s and '04s and sold them ALL at the Feb boat show for GREAT deals...

Dave R

04-06-2006, 10:21 AM

I also echo what others have said, 20' is a popular size and many are traded in for larger sizes in the fall and early spring, so check around local dealers. I know the dealer I work for had 4 20' ers traded in, '05s and '04s and sold them ALL at the Feb boat show for GREAT deals...

I hear he had a cream puff 2005 burgandy 200...:D

Dave R

04-06-2006, 10:30 AM

Toytime,

Welcome! Congrats on deciding to become boaters. It's a wonderful lifestyle.

Random advice: If you plan to boat on Winnipesaukee, be sure to get a chart. It's a very tough place to navigate without one. I dropped a bit more money on a GPS chart plotter and think it's the best boating investment I have ever made. Get certified, shop around, and test drive more boats (and do so in heavy chop, this is very important). Shopping is fun. Set aside money for accessories like two anchors, comfy PFDs, boat hook, docklines, fenders etc. Get a bimini top with the boat you buy. Being in the sun all day can get old.

Be sure to try a Regal too. I've had two now and really like them.

ThePlut

04-06-2006, 10:36 AM

I hear he had a cream puff 2005 burgandy 200...:D

Actually, he had 3! (two without the boot stripe though...).

:)

CHSLTD

04-06-2006, 11:50 AM

My wife and I purchased a 2005 225 Sundowner from Winnisquam Marine last summer. Our salesman was Ryan Crawford and we were very happy with the no hassle pricing (lowest around) and the amazing service. Sometimes there is more to buying a boat than price, Winnisquam Marine shows it's customers that their commitment to them is 110%. Not to mention the great product and price. If it sounds like I am happy with our experience you are right...We would strongly recommend Winnisquam Marine to you as I have to others.:D

fasttech

04-06-2006, 02:41 PM

Check out Irwin Marine they have about 20 used 20 footers on their web site and you can not get better service anywhere on the lake unless you go to their Alton store on 28A. Good Luck

PaulS

04-07-2006, 10:13 AM

I've bought 2 boats from Winnisquam Marine. No nonsense, no hassling, great price.

GTO

04-07-2006, 10:29 AM

If your stuck on just the Four Winns, fine. But I reccommend you shop around for boats of different makes. If your stuck on the 20 ft, compare other makes in the same length. Some boats are heavier than others and weight makes a big difference on a rough day on the lake.
I have a 23 ft Searay bowrider which is great for me on the big lake.

Dave R

04-07-2006, 12:54 PM

if you want to visit a great site solely for boating, check out www.boatingabc.com Lots of Winnipesaukee folks there and scads of great boating info as well.

Good N' You?

04-07-2006, 07:19 PM

Welcome Toytime!
Good luck with your new boat purchase. Four Winns make a great boat! I sent you a PM, but thought others might want to hear what I had to say about my boat. Here is the link to the Yamaha site:
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/boat/products/modelhome/353/0/home.aspx

I think this boat fits these waters soooo well. The jet drive has so many benefits. Only 18" of draft and less at plane. You simply can go where others can't. And if you were to hit, for example a rock, You won't rip out your out drive, or your prop.
Take one of these boats for a demo and you'll be surprised by this boat. At the least.
Just my opinion.

Dave R

04-07-2006, 09:13 PM

camp guy

04-08-2006, 08:27 AM

Once again the readers of this site have produced answers covering lots of ground with lots of great information. I particularly like the suggestion of trying out a boat in choppy conditions - very common on the big Lake. Now, my little comment: Be prepared for the inevitable remark "You paid WHAT for THAT". No matter how well you shop around and negotiate prices, someone will deflate your financial balloon. That having been said, welcome to the ranks of a boater, and best of luck and enjoy the season.

gtxrider

04-08-2006, 10:56 AM

Take Camp Guys advice. There will be someone who could have gotten it for you wholesale.

Anyway enjoy the boat what ever you chose. It is fun to cruise the lake and explore, sight see and discover new places. We had just as much if not more fun in a row boat with and outboard as with the 4 WINNS Horizon. But than we were much younger and less sophisticated. Ya, I'm sophisticated:rolleye2:

Toytime

04-08-2006, 05:21 PM

Thank you all very much for your replies and advice!! It clears the fog a bit for me. Even tho it has been quite a few years since I have done any boating, I am certain that I want at least a 20 footer for the room and the stability. I do not intend to slip it anywhere, instead will trailor it every time I go out. Will definately take the safe boaters course(as will my wife and both of my daughters). We will take our time about venturing out on Winnipisaukee as it is such a large lake with a lot of traffic and takes time and caution to boat safely.

If I do buy from Winnisquam Marine, I will probably spend quite a few days boating winnisquam at least until I am very familiar with the particular boat I buy. Seeing as how the salesman told me I get free use of their marina's boat launch if I buy there...may as well use it, eh?

Drove by Irwin Marine on the way to Winnisquam Marine and wow!!..that place is huge!!..Even tho they are such a big place do you folks think they would have the time to show a new boat buyer around their inventory?

Will take the advice some have offered and look at similar boats of a different make. I foresee a very hard decision looming ahead!! I can't even rule out the possibility of purchasing a good used late model boat if the price feels right.

Again, thank you all very much for your responses!!..Hope to actually meet and boat with at least some of you good people in the future.

jrc

04-08-2006, 07:06 PM

...Drove by Irwin Marine on the way to Winnisquam Marine and wow!!..that place is huge!!..Even tho they are such a big place do you folks think they would have the time to show a new boat buyer around their inventory?

Irwin has an open house that ends tomorrow, but any boat dealer will show you their inventory. Just walk in the front door and say you want to buy a boat. You should get swarmed. If they don't have time for you before they get your money, they sure won't after.

fpartri497

04-08-2006, 08:30 PM

Toytime:

you might also check out the new boat line called Azure. last july 1 I, took delivery of the AZ200 sport deck boat with the volvo penta 5.0 L V-8. 11 passenger and a very fast boat handles beautifull In rough water. As others have said there are many nice boats out there available.

fpartri497:D

DRH

04-09-2006, 06:26 AM

Irwin has an open house that ends tomorrow ...
We've bought two boats from Irwin (Sea Ray), and our next door neighbor just bought a boat there. We've always found them to be very accomodating and willing to take plenty of time to show customers their inventory. The people we've dealt with there are Bill Irwin, Bruce Wright and Gary Harbour.

Dave R

04-09-2006, 07:06 AM

I have had two excellent experiences with late model used boats. Great way to save some serious dough up front and depreciation when it's time to sell. Also a nice way to get into a bigger boat for the same money. You'll find a vast difference in the quality of rides between a 20 foot boat and a similar design 23 foot boat. The bigger boat will be far less tiring to operate all day. We upsized from a 21 foot boat to a 25 foot boat with the same hull design last year and were utterly shocked by the ride improvement 4 feet and 1400 lbs of dry weight made. One downside to used boat shopping is that a lot of the late model used boats out there have the base engine packages. Often, this is done to keep the sticker price down and the engines are not exactly adequate for the boat. Underpowered boats are not much fun, especially on a choppy body of water, and they hit the used market quickly.

Since you plan to trailer all the time, please be sure you have an adequate tow vehicle. The published boat weights you read are substantially lighter than the actual "real world" weight; and then you'll need to add the substantial weight of the trailer. For instance, my boat has a published dry weight of 4300 lbs. That sounds great since my Durango can tow in excess of 7000 lbs. Well, when you add 1500 lbs for the trailer, 450 lbs of fuel, 80 lbs of water, 400 lbs of gear and a weekend's worth of food and drink, I'm much closer to the actual towing limit.

After you get a boat, post your float plans. Perhaps someone with experience can show you around the lake, it's a bit overwhelming. If I'm around, I'd be glad to lead a tour.

GTO

04-09-2006, 11:43 AM

Wasn't happy at all with my experience at Irwins so bought my Searay somewhere else (alot cheaper) but others have had good luck there I hear. We originally looked at newer used boats but most were still way too expensive and you don't really know what your getting. Pay the extra, get the warranty.

upnorth

04-10-2006, 11:37 AM

I wanted to echo the sentiment about the boat and the marina. I bought a new '05 200 Horizon from them -- Ryan, Ed and Dave are great people. They're really just one of us and happen to sell boats. They very much value customer service and I have had excellent results (to the extent I needed it during my first summer with the boat). I'm very happy with them and the boat and can't WAIT to get it in the water. Good luck.

By the way, a friend mentioned that I ought to wax the hull. Does anyone think it's necessary after just one season? When I had it winterized, Winnisquam did a nice job with taking the goop off the bottom, but I didn't have it waxed.

Merrymeeting

04-10-2006, 12:21 PM

I wax mine twice a year, after taking it out, and before putting it in. After 4 seasons in the water, it still looks like new. While I don't know what it would look like if I didn't do this, seems like cheap insurance to me.

ossipeeboater

04-10-2006, 01:01 PM

.

By the way, a friend mentioned that I ought to wax the hull. Does anyone think it's necessary after just one season? When I had it winterized, Winnisquam did a nice job with taking the goop off the bottom, but I didn't have it waxed.

absolutely wax every year. the acid wash they use to get the goop off takes everything off, i acid wash mine and have it waxed every year and the hull is still perfect except some small scrathces 5 years later.

Silver Duck

04-10-2006, 06:25 PM

Upnorth

Waxing the boat is definitely good idea, and well worth the effort/expense. It will help slow the oxidation (dulling) process on your boat's gelcoat finish. It's even more important on the areas that have constant sun beating down on them (but don't wax the non-skid :eek: ).

Silver Duck

jrc

04-10-2006, 10:13 PM

...
By the way, a friend mentioned that I ought to wax the hull. Does anyone think it's necessary after just one season? When I had it winterized, Winnisquam did a nice job with taking the goop off the bottom, but I didn't have it waxed.

Depends what you mean by hull. Waxing anyplace that get sun is a really good idea. Waxing dark colors is very important. Waxing the portion below the waterline is a waste of time. The first time you get up on plane the wax will get stripped off. There's a few boating forums out there where people will discuss how to, when to and which wax forever.

upnorth

04-11-2006, 07:27 AM

Thanks JRC.

I meant the underside -- basically anything below the rubrail. I do plan to wax the color band, top and inside surfaces, but I wasn't sure about the very bottom. Seems like it would be a pain maneuvering around the trailer, bunks, etc. Frankly, I agree with you -- from a physics point of view, it seems that the wax below the water line doesn't stand a chance.

Merrymeeting

04-12-2006, 06:53 AM

Dave R

04-12-2006, 07:57 AM

If wax doesn't stand a chance, how come the green algae and other junk that adheres to the bottom during the season does? :confused:

Again, we don't go crazy, but we do put 1 coat of wax on the underside (the parts we can reach). In my view, it seems to retard the junk from growing on the underside, and seems to make it easier to clean off at the end of the season. Your mileage may vary...

that's a good point. I think I'll rub algae all over the topsides...

Might want to be careful about waxing the bottom of the boat. In theory, the whole lake could bead up and roll off.

jrc

04-12-2006, 08:11 AM

Merrymeeting may be right. Waxing vehicles is one of those subjects that is long on opinions and short on facts, much like engine oil. I may have chosen to give more weight to the "don't wax the bottom" opinion because I didn't want to lay on my back and do it :laugh:
My boat is in the water all summer, every fall they power washed the gunk off and it looks as good as new. What else could I want?
It certainly can't hurt to wax, although some say it will slow your boat down. Which again contradicts the "doesn't stand a chance" theory.