Taxes

[Biggd]

My property tax bill up again in Meredith.:(
Anyone else see a significant increase?

[phoenix]

Mined went up in Moultonboro by 12%

[FlyingScot]

Not to pry too much, but it would be good to know specifics in these discussions. If your tax dollars are up/down, what's the % change, and is your home on the water? Also, what's the increase in the town's budget?

[joey2665]

The City of Laconia increased the assessed value by 9.5%

[Biggd]

Not to pry too much, but it would be good to know specifics in these discussions. If your tax dollars are up/down, what's the % change, and is your home on the water? Also, what's the increase in the town's budget?The rate went up in Meredith, my assessment stayed the same. I'm not on the water but have water rights and a dock.

[feb]

Meredith; Waterfront;Assessment stayed the same;Taxes up 7.5% over previous bill.

I just shake my head, feel bad for myself for a minute and move on.They ain't ever going down. But there will come a day where its no longer sustainable.

[Biggd]

Meredith; Waterfront;Assessment stayed the same;Taxes up 7.5% over previous bill.

I just shake my head, feel bad for myself for a minute and move on.They ain't ever going down. But there will come a day where its no longer sustainable.That day is getting close for many people. I'm not directly on the water so my taxes are still pretty manageable,
But, with two homes and being retired, I'm not sure how much more I will accept before deciding it's not worth it anymore.

[tis]

That day is getting close for many people. I'm not directly on the water so my taxes are still pretty manageable,
But, with two homes and being retired, I'm not sure how much more I will accept before deciding it's not worth it anymore.


That's what's scary. At what point do people say it's not worth it anymore even if they can afford it. How do you justify those kind of taxes for two months or so? I think the towns need to wake up and slow down their spending.

[LIforrelaxin]

Taxes will continue to go up it is just the way it is. I don't know how much the Tax Rate itself has changed in Moultonborough, but I don't think too much, but what continues to increase is the Value of my property. As each neighbor around me puts up a bigger home, my value continues to go up as well.....

Knowing how much I can sell the property for, it is likely a mater of time, before I decide it isn't worth it. Right now however we are considering what work it would take to have something we would be comfortable renting.... That is a way to make some money, keep the property, and not be burdened by it....

[TomC]

A lot of people dream of retiring here, so they can enjoy the place that for many years, in some cases, was just a weekend/vacation place. With retirement comes living off fixed income whether from pensions, annuities, or the "4% rule" drawing from a portfolio... ever-increasing taxes will drive a number of these folks away. Seems a shame...

[Biggd]

A lot of people dream of retiring here, so they can enjoy the place that for many years, in some cases, was just a weekend/vacation place. With retirement comes living off fixed income whether from pensions, annuities, or the "4% rule" drawing from a portfolio... ever-increasing taxes will drive a number of these folks away. Seems a shame... That's what I'm faced with, retired with two homes, one in Ma and one in NH. My wife doesn't want to live in NH full time and at some point I may need to sell one, it would most likely be the lake house. :( If it was just up to me the decision would be an easy one, I would retire at the lake.

[tummyman]

It is human nature to complain about taxes, but there is a solution. People need to get involved in what is happening in their town. Get on the Advisory Budget Committee or run for an office, etc. etc. In M'boro, schools are spending huge amounts of money and just ignoring taxpayers. Just recently 8 people announced retirement and even with low enrollment, the school board has decided to hire replacements...another stick in taxpayers eyes. One of the retirees was a principal. Why do they need three principals and a Supt. of less than 500 students? Dumb.... There is no accountability. Watch the school meetings on-line.....but see that only one or two residents show up and ask questions. Same for Select Board. There are lots of very smart people around, but most just pay their tax bills and grumble. Get off your butt and get involved...or just suck it in and pay. Up to you.....

[John Mercier]

If they aren't residing here, and only spending a couple of months...
Not really that easy to ''get involved''.

[feb]

I think one problem with the "at what point will towns wake up and start being frugal" thought is that it isn't as strong because for every one of us trying to keep a grip on our dream there are 100 people in line waiting for us, with cash, to lose that grip and decide to sell to them. Towns don't care who pays as long as they pay.

[longislander]

Moultonborough's present tax rate, 5.65, is the second lowest in 36 years.
The previous tax rate, 5.70, was the third lowest in 36 years.
The lowest tax rate in 36 years was the 4.78 which was prior to the 5.70 rate.

There are pros and cons to assessments. Sellers are smiling, and probably downsizing, here or wherever.

Tax bills ...

[thinkxingu]

I think one problem with the "at what point will towns wake up and start being frugal" thought is that it isn't as strong because for every one of us trying to keep a grip on our dream there are 100 people in line waiting for us, with cash, to lose that grip and decide to sell to them. Towns don't care who pays as long as they pay.Without going too far off-topic, this is the problem with many things.

I remember people complaining about the exponential rise in ticket prices for the Bank NH Pavilion when ticket companies took over—a few years later, and there are still enough people paying those prices for it not to be an issue.

I'll add that the current state of consumer debt in America might indicate that not only are people willing to overspend on things, but that they're willing to finance that overspending.

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

[tis]

Moultonborough's present tax rate, 5.65, is the second lowest in 36 years.
The previous tax rate, 5.70, was the second lowest in 36 years.
The lowest tax rate in 36 years was the 4.78 which was prior to the 5.70 rate.

There are pros and cons to assessments. Sellers are smiling, and probably downsizing, here or wherever.

Tax bills ...

That sounds good but is misleading. It may be the lowest rate in 36 years but the assessment is the highest in forever. Each town and school votes to spend so much money and need to collect that amount no matter how they call it.

[longislander]

That sounds good but is misleading. It may be the lowest rate in 36 years but the assessment is the highest in forever. Each town and school votes to spend so much money and need to collect that amount no matter how they call it.

It is not misleading ... it is factual.

Voters determine two of the four segments to the town tax rate:
Municipal, county, local school, and state school.

Town voters have a say on municipal and local school.

The state school rate is still being determined by the NH Supreme Court and the two court cases regarding SWEPT etc.

The town and school don't vote ... the voters ... vote and the decision is based on plurality.

[Biggd]

I think one problem with the "at what point will towns wake up and start being frugal" thought is that it isn't as strong because for every one of us trying to keep a grip on our dream there are 100 people in line waiting for us, with cash, to lose that grip and decide to sell to them. Towns don't care who pays as long as they pay.We haven't really had a recession in over 15 years, other than the first 6 months of the pandemic and then prices took off. That's the only thing that really resets the economy and causes prices to decline. Prices on everything have gone up substantially and people are still working off that sub 3% borrowed money. At some point the consumer will balk at the increases and pull back. I don't think things can keep going up at this rate much longer without a pull back.

[tis]

It is not misleading ... it is factual.

Voters determine two of the four segments to the town tax rate:
Municipal, county, local school, and state school.

Town voters have a say on municipal and local school.

The state school rate is still being determined by the NH Supreme Court and the two court cases regarding SWEPT etc.

The town and school don't vote ... the voters ... vote and the decision is based on plurality.

It's factual but it "sounds good" until you say the assessment has doubled so you are not paying less. But I don't think I need to explain that to you. Oh thank you, I didn't realize that, I thought it was the school and town that voted not the voters.

[TomC]

At some point the consumer will balk at the increases and pull back.

that's already happening with cars... manufacturers drove the average transaction price for a car to $50K... they are sitting on lots now. I heard a commercial on the radio for a car dealer in Maine who was offering $12k below invoice (not MSRP) on some Jeeps and Ram trucks...

[longislander]

I thought it was the school and town that voted not the voters.

You might need to comprehend the disctinction from assessments ... tax rate ... and the multilpication of the two to determine the tax bill.

I'm please you now understand the difference between town/schools and voters.

Moultonborough had at its last annual town meeting and annual school district meetings, I think, around 250 voters, out of a resident population of over 5,000 and around 4,700 registered voters.

How do you think that affects the Moultonborough tax bill ?

[John Mercier]

We haven't really had a recession in over 15 years, other than the first 6 months of the pandemic and then prices took off. That's the only thing that really resets the economy and causes prices to decline. Prices on everything have gone up substantially and people are still working off that sub 3% borrowed money. At some point the consumer will balk at the increases and pull back. I don't think things can keep going up at this rate much longer without a pull back.

Maybe.
But lakefront/access property in central NH is a finite supply.

So it doesn't take a whole lot of demand to keep those prices rising.

[FlyingScot]

Maybe.
But lakefront/access property in central NH is a finite supply.

So it doesn't take a whole lot of demand to keep those prices rising.

Exactly. With median prices >$2MM, nobody's borrowing to be on the water. It's all capital gains from a very hot stock market. Look for a cut in taxes on the wealthy to boost lake prices higher, or a drop in the S&P to bring them lower

[Biggd]

Maybe.
But lakefront/access property in central NH is a finite supply.

So it doesn't take a whole lot of demand to keep those prices rising.That doesn't keep people from looking elsewhere, like Maine. The very wealthy will own all the NH lakefront, and the rest will look to Maine, where there is a much larger supply.

[TheProfessor]

My property tax bill up again in Meredith.:(
Anyone else see a significant increase?

Don't view many attending school board meetings.
Police, fire, DPW . . . buy anything that they want.
Who do you think pays for all of this?


Only answer is SB2. Up Up or Down vote. Done.

Or whine or wine all of the time.

[Biggd]

Exactly. With median prices >$2MM, nobody's borrowing to be on the water. It's all capital gains from a very hot stock market. Look for a cut in taxes on the wealthy to boost lake prices higher, or a drop in the S&P to bring them lowerMany of those very wealthy refinanced their business debt and when their businesses make more, they also make more. I'm sure Trump renegotiated all the loans on his real estate empire at very low rates as did many other commercial and income producing property owners did. But the stock market has also contributed to all this wealth. I think 2025 will be a make or break year, hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
I know I'm holding off on any big expenditures for at least the first six months to see which way it goes but I'm 70 and not your typical consumer anymore.

[Biggd]

Don't view many attending school board meetings.
Police, fire, DPW . . . buy anything that they want.
Who do you think pays for all of this?


Only answer is SB2. Up Up or Down vote. Done.

Or whine or wine all of the time.I'm not a resident so I can't really move the needle by voting.
All I can't do is sit back and watch, and pay until I no longer can.
I have a neighbor that put his home on the market just before the election. He's in his 80's and his wife 90. I think he missed the top of the market because he's already dropped the price 50K and there's not many lookers. I think that home would have sold quickly last spring.
I feel bad for him because he has to sell, and he took out a reverse mortgage to continue to be able to pay his bills. He has 200 ft on the water, so his tax bill is high.

[secondcurve]

We haven't really had a recession in over 15 years, other than the first 6 months of the pandemic and then prices took off. That's the only thing that really resets the economy and causes prices to decline. Prices on everything have gone up substantially and people are still working off that sub 3% borrowed money. At some point the consumer will balk at the increases and pull back. I don't think things can keep going up at this rate much longer without a pull back.

The recession during the pandemic was actually just two months! Length of the recession aside, your point is well taken. I’m not wishing for a recession but when one hits many things will be reset as there is a lot of leverage in the economy.

[TheProfessor]

We haven't really had a recession in over 15 years,

From Google:

"According to available data, since 1789, the average number of years between recessions in the United States is roughly 5-6 years"

That is the average in years.

[jeffk]

The actual tax you pay is a complicated matter with multiple moving parts.

Your assessment is based on your properties value as COMPARED TO OTHERS IN THE TOWN. The net value of the property can go up, or down. The desirability of YOUR property can go up or down as measured by similar properties that have sold recently. This evaluation is not an exact science. A sale (or a couple) driven by someone willing to pay a premium for getting what they want can ripple through all other similar houses. Limited availability of properties can drive up competition and prices. The overall economy can limit or explode what people are willing to pay for property. The real issue is if YOUR property stands out to gain, or lose, from the factors that are driving the prices. There could be a general increase in prices but your house is in a desirable town and houses there similar to yours are being bid up. Your house valuation goes up with THEIR sales. You have a more valuable house and get the taxes that go along with that. When the town's percent change in valuation is announced, you can compare YOUR percent change in valuation and estimate that your taxes are going up or down and, generally, how big the change will be.

Then there is the town's budget. Again there can be many factors in play. There can be special considerations for THIS year that drives taxes up. Frankly, it seems that most budgets of towns around the lake are not exploding. Maybe they have been have been comparatively higher for a long time but they don't tend to make great leaps upward unless there are justifiable costs. YES, I know people can quote exceptions. However, if you live in a town that has had high taxes for the last 20 years, do you think that is going to change?

The tax RATE is set by the overall town valuation and the town's budget.

All the above has to play out before you get your tax bill. Every time new valuations get sent out, people panic because they have, usually, gone up. You need to take into account overall town valuation and the town budget. Then you have to wait for your actual tax bill.

I'm not saying it won't be bad news but until you get it, you can't be sure what it will be. As information is released prior to the bills coming out, you may estimate but ALL the information needs to be compared.

[Biggd]

From Google:

"According to available data, since 1789, the average number of years between recessions in the United States is roughly 5-6 years"

That is the average in years.Long overdue, "caution" is the theme for 2025.

[TomC]

I'm not a resident so I can't really move the needle by voting.
All I can't do is sit back and watch, and pay until I no longer can.
I have a neighbor that put his home on the market just before the election. He's in his 80's and his wife 90. I think he missed the top of the market because he's already dropped the price 50K and there's not many lookers. I think that home would have sold quickly last spring.
I feel bad for him because he has to sell, and he took out a reverse mortgage to continue to be able to pay his bills. He has 200 ft on the water, so his tax bill is high.

Pretty tough that an octogenarian can't live out his days at his place if it is taxes that drove him out... it would be pretty easy to fix that. For example, in the case of a person over a certain age, maybe 80 or 85, taxes accrue but are deferred and settled (including interest) with the estate after death...

[Susie Cougar]

Pretty tough that an octogenarian can't live out his days at his place if it is taxes that drove him out... it would be pretty easy to fix that. For example, in the case of a person over a certain age, maybe 80 or 85, taxes accrue but are deferred and settled (including interest) with the estate after death...

This is a very good idea that I believe deserves to be talked about more. No one should be forced out of their home because of taxes. This seems like a very logical solution because the money is tied up in the home.

[John Mercier]

There is already a mechanism in statute.

The problem seems to be that regardless of what people are told, they do not save enough for retirement. Especially the retirement they want.

I watch people retiring in their late 60s and 70s building dream homes with stairs and no thought to the age-in-place concept. So I think regardless of what government tries to do, we fail as individuals to grasp the concept some times.

[Weekend Pundit]

As best I can tell everyone's taxes went up. I would need to take a look at my past few tax bills to see the breakdown over the past 10 years.

The tax rate in Gilford has decreased every year over the previous 9 years. This year the tax rate went up. In 2020 the tax rate was $15.03. In 2021 it was $12.28, down 18.3%. In 2022 it was $12.25, down 0.2%. In 2023 it was $10.30, down 15.9%. This year it was $11.25, up 9.22%.

Did the town's spending - municipal & school - increase that much?

Taking into account the revaluation that saw a 0.75% increase in the value or Gilford property, that doesn't make sense. Our tax rate for local education increased $0.57 (6.67%) and state education increased $0.08 (6.67%), so of the total $0.95 tax rate increase, $0.65 of that was for education. The last $0.42 was split between the municipal and county, with the town being $0.36 and the county $0.06. Figure in the revaluation and our tax rate ended up going up 95 cents.

[ITD]

These tax increases on the town level are pretty easy to stop. Town meeting sets the rate in most towns around here. Go to town meeting and vote against increases. It's pretty simple, if enough people vote this way, taxes won't go up. Tax rate does not matter, it is adjusted every year based on what the town meeting voted to spend, divided by the total RE valuation per 1000. What matters is every little (or large) increase in spending approved, that amounts to a cup of coffee a day or more, those add up.

[tis]

These tax increases on the town level are pretty easy to stop. Town meeting sets the rate in most towns around here. Go to town meeting and vote against increases. It's pretty simple, if enough people vote this way, taxes won't go up. Tax rate does not matter, it is adjusted every year based on what the town meeting voted to spend, divided by the total RE valuation per 1000. What matters is every little (or large) increase in spending approved, that amounts to a cup of coffee a day or more, those add up.

Exactly!! Perfectly said. But they need to vote for school budget too, as well as town.

[TheProfessor]

Go to town meeting

SB2
Solves all of this crap.

Many cannot sit for hours listening to all sorts of people babbling at the microphones.

SB2. All day voting. Walk in. Vote. Walk out.

Simple.

[Descant]

Pretty tough that an octogenarian can't live out his days at his place if it is taxes that drove him out... it would be pretty easy to fix that. For example, in the case of a person over a certain age, maybe 80 or 85, taxes accrue but are deferred and settled (including interest) with the estate after death...

I guess a lot depends on the next generation, if there is one, and what their desires and abilities are. Absent the kids being a solution, I think of two ideas that may apply.
1. Reverse mortgage
2. Sell or donate the property with a retained residency clause

Handled properly, either of these might give you a lump sum of cash and minimal overhead costs going forward.

Back to taxes:
My experience many years ago as a selectman was that the BOS has considerable flexibility in working out taxes and property seizures/sales. Town and City Councils have less flexibility due to charters.

[Weekend Pundit]

Go to town meeting

SB2
Solves all of this crap.

Many cannot sit for hours listening to all sorts of people babbling at the microphones.

SB2. All day voting. Walk in. Vote. Walk out.

Simple.

For SB2 towns (like mine), there are also the deliberative sessions in February which goes over the town and school warrants. They can be amended during those sessions which means there are two opportunities to deal with town and school spending. (Yes, I know some towns have their town and school district meetings in either April or May, but they are the exception.)

I have to admit that one of my biggest pet peeve are folks - specifically year round residents - who will complain about their property taxes yet they "couldn't be bothered" to attend town/school district meetings if a traditional meeting or the deliberative and/or voting sessions in SB2 towns. When I hear that they neither attended or voted, my sympathy for their plight fades. It may sound heartless, but too often they want someone to fix the problem <U>after</U> the fact, something they could have headed off if they had bothered to participate. (I point to the town of Croydon as an example and how they cut their school budget somewhere around 50% last March - it may have been more, but memory fails me at the moment - because too many voters in Croydon couldn't be bothered to attend the school district meeting. The hew and cry that went out after that was beautiful to see as I am sure town and school district meeting attendance will be much higher in 2025 because of it.)

[ITD]

SB2
Solves all of this crap.

Many cannot sit for hours listening to all sorts of people babbling at the microphones.

SB2. All day voting. Walk in. Vote. Walk out.

Simple.

Fortunately most of the voters in Moultonboro know this absolutely not true and voted sb2 down last time it was up.

[tis]

SB2
Solves all of this crap.

Many cannot sit for hours listening to all sorts of people babbling at the microphones.

SB2. All day voting. Walk in. Vote. Walk out.

Simple.

I agree. A lot more people vote in SB2 towns BUT still not enough.

[tis]

Fortunately most of the voters in Moultonboro know this absolutely not true and voted sb2 down last time it was up.

Why do you think this and why are the voters afraid of SB2? They don't WANT more people to vote? SB2 won't "solve all of the crap" but it certainly will bring out more voters. I just don't understand how anybody can be afraid of SB2 unless they are the tiny little group that would like to control each town. Please enlighten me.

[jeffk]

I can understand the faults of SB2.

Responsible citizens should take time to understand the issues they are voting on. At a town level, the issues are not on TV or in many papers. Sometimes the only place you can learn about them is at town meeting.

If you are focused on the issue that school budgets are too big and you don't come to a town meeting, there is little chance you might hear the other side of the discussion. And vice versa.

As to the "tiny little group" that likes to "control" the town, isn't it just as likely that a budget that is sensible can be overridden by a group whose only purpose is to defeat that budget without further ado. With SB2, it's easy. No discussion. No exchange of ideas. Just vote it down. I have seen such things happen and at the next voting opportunity it is reversed because the impact of the cuts upsets so many people that they made sure they came out to vote the next time.

To be clear, I am not on either side of this spending discussion. I believe that town spending should be limited and that we are probably spending on things we shouldn't be. On the other hand, there are some things we DO need to spend on; even if it stretches our pocketbook somewhat. The only way to sort this out is to discuss it and ask questions. If you are too busy to attend a town meeting to listen and then vote, maybe what you are complaining about isn't all that important to you. If you find yourself outvoted all the time, maybe you are living in a town that just doesn't see things your way. That's the way democracy works, the majority gets what they want. The RIGHT WAY to change minds and votes is to present reasoned and persuasive discussion, not to drop vote bombs and scurry home.

[TomC]

I guess a lot depends on the next generation, if there is one, and what their desires and abilities are. Absent the kids being a solution, I think of two ideas that may apply.
1. Reverse mortgage
2. Sell or donate the property with a retained residency clause

Handled properly, either of these might give you a lump sum of cash and minimal overhead costs going forward.

some good ideas... only thing about a reverse mortgage is that it is only applicable to one's primary residence. Of course a regular cash-out mortgage could also extract cash from the property.

[Biggd]

some good ideas... only thing about a reverse mortgage is that it is only applicable to one's primary residence. Of course a regular cash-out mortgage could also extract cash from the property.Pretty tough for a retired person in their 70's and 80's to get a regular mortgage with no income. I also think it would be difficult to get someone to buy it and let you continue to live in it without a substantial monthly rent. A reverse mortgage is probably your only option.
Just to clarify, my neighbor is moving into an assisted living facility in Peabody Ma. because his wife needs constant care. He needed 400K buy in money to reserve their apartment which he didn't have, thus the reverse mortgage. So, he needs to sell no matter what! The stock market taking a nosedive yesterday won't help the real estate market. The property is on the market for 1.25 million. By the time he pays off the real estate fees, reverse mortgage, and capital gains taxes there's not much left. It may seem like he will have a lot of money left, but those assisted living facilities get a hefty monthly rent that will eat into that money depending how long they both live.
My neighborhood is starting to turn over as a lot of my neighbors are in their 80's. Another one of my elderly neighbors cashed out last spring and sold his waterfront home this past summer for 1.55 million and bought a brand-new home in Meredith away from the lake for 1 million. Another one sold a family camp for 1.3 million and cashed out. It looks like they both may have caught the top of the market, JMO.

[MeredithMan]

Pretty tough for a retired person in their 70's and 80's to get a regular mortgage with no income. I also think it would be difficult to get someone to buy it and let you continue to live in it without a substantial monthly rent. A reverse mortgage is probably your only option.
Just to clarify, my neighbor is moving into an assisted living facility in Peabody Ma. because his wife needs constant care. He needed 400K buy in money to reserve their apartment which he didn't have, thus the reverse mortgage. So, he needs to sell no matter what! The stock market taking a nosedive yesterday won't help the real estate market. The property is on the market for 1.25 million. By the time he pays off the real estate fees, reverse mortgage, and capital gains taxes there's not much left. It may seem like he will have a lot of money left, but those assisted living facilities get a hefty monthly rent that will eat into that money depending how long they both live.
My neighborhood is starting to turn over as a lot of my neighbors are in their 80's. Another one of my elderly neighbors cashed out last spring and sold his waterfront home this past summer for 1.55 million and bought a brand-new home in Meredith away from the lake for 1 million. Another one sold a family camp for 1.3 million and cashed out. It looks like they both caught the top of the market, JMO.

Big-
At the risk of going off-topic, your neighbor had to put down 400K to reserve a spot at an Assisted Living? I've not heard of that before...we looked at a lot of Assisted Living places when we moved my in-laws into one, and the most that had to be paid up front was one month's rent. And you are correct, the rent is not cheap...I think it is like $18K/mo for both in-laws, (they charge by the person and by the services required for each).

[tis]

I can understand the faults of SB2.

Responsible citizens should take time to understand the issues they are voting on. At a town level, the issues are not on TV or in many papers. Sometimes the only place you can learn about them is at town meeting.

If you are focused on the issue that school budgets are too big and you don't come to a town meeting, there is little chance you might hear the other side of the discussion. And vice versa.

As to the "tiny little group" that likes to "control" the town, isn't it just as likely that a budget that is sensible can be overridden by a group whose only purpose is to defeat that budget without further ado. With SB2, it's easy. No discussion. No exchange of ideas. Just vote it down. I have seen such things happen and at the next voting opportunity it is reversed because the impact of the cuts upsets so many people that they made sure they came out to vote the next time.

To be clear, I am not on either side of this spending discussion. I believe that town spending should be limited and that we are probably spending on things we shouldn't be. On the other hand, there are some things we DO need to spend on; even if it stretches our pocketbook somewhat. The only way to sort this out is to discuss it and ask questions. If you are too busy to attend a town meeting to listen and then vote, maybe what you are complaining about isn't all that important to you. If you find yourself outvoted all the time, maybe you are living in a town that just doesn't see things your way. That's the way democracy works, the majority gets what they want. The RIGHT WAY to change minds and votes is to present reasoned and persuasive discussion, not to drop vote bombs and scurry home.


Although a SB2 town doesn't have a "town meeting" at which they vote on many of the articles, they do have a "deliberative session" before voting day where the taxpayers can become more informed and can propose changes to amendments if they want to. So this is where you have your "exchange of ideas". I agree, it's not easy to find out information, you have to work for it.

[Weekend Pundit]

Although a SB2 town doesn't have a "town meeting" at which they vote on many of the articles, they do have a "deliberative session" before voting day where the taxpayers can become more informed and can propose changes to amendments if they want to. So this is where you have your "exchange of ideas". I agree, it's not easy to find out information, you have to work for it.

I have seen deliberative sessions in our town with a couple of hundred attending and others with less the 50. Some of that depends upon what's on the town or school warrant.

During the voting session we see between 1300 and 1500 voters (out of ~5900 registered voters) showing up to vote. But I have no idea how well informed they may or may not be when they enter the voting booth. I have no idea how many vote based upon reason and logic and those who vote based upon how they feel. It's a crap shoot.

I have seen town and school budgets rejected by the voters, and I did not disagree with them for doing so. I have seen budgets passed by voters that I thought should have been rejected because they were too loaded with "nice to haves" rather than "need to haves". (I think the problem is that some folks have a problem telling the difference between the two.)

In the end it comes down to what the voters decide. If they don't like the increased taxes their vote created, they have no one to blame but themselves. However, there are still too many of our fellow townsfolk that cannot seem to make the connection between the two.

[Biggd]

Big-
At the risk of going off-topic, your neighbor had to put down 400K to reserve a spot at an Assisted Living? I've not heard of that before...we looked at a lot of Assisted Living places when we moved my in-laws into one, and the most that had to be paid up front was one month's rent. And you are correct, the rent is not cheap...I think it is like $18K/mo for both in-laws, (they charge by the person and by the services required for each).These are not nursing homes. They are high end apartments that you buy into and when you pass on, a percentage of the money goes back into your estate. They cater to couples where one is healthy and can continue to live an independent life while knowing your partner is being taking care of 24/7. There are many that require even higher buy-ins for the very wealthy.
There is one in Lexington Ma, Brookhaven, that was getting 400K buy in back in the 90's. I can only imagine what the buy in now is. I had a business at that time that was within a football field away, the residents were very wealthy.

[tis]

I have seen deliberative sessions in our town with a couple of hundred attending and others with less the 50. Some of that depends upon what's on the town or school warrant.

During the voting session we see between 1300 and 1500 voters (out of ~5900 registered voters) showing up to vote. But I have no idea how well informed they may or may not be when they enter the voting booth. I have no idea how many vote based upon reason and logic and those who vote based upon how they feel. It's a crap shoot.

I have seen town and school budgets rejected by the voters, and I did not disagree with them for doing so. I have seen budgets passed by voters that I thought should have been rejected because they were too loaded with "nice to haves" rather than "need to haves". (I think the problem is that some folks have a problem telling the difference between the two.)

In the end it comes down to what the voters decide. If they don't like the increased taxes their vote created, they have no one to blame but themselves. However, there are still too many of our fellow townsfolk that cannot seem to make the connection between the two.

The sad thing is most people don't really understand what they are voting for.

[MeredithMan]

Ah, Ok. Understand. I wasn't thinking it was a nursing home, which is very different than Assisted Living. In my in-laws Assisted Living place, they have an apartment, but go to the dining room for all their meals and the staff gives them their medications and there is a pub and regular entertainment. There is no ownership/equity, however...just straight rental payments. I was not aware that there were places where residents could have an equity participation.

I learned something new today. Thanks!

[Biggd]

I talked to a Meredith resident last night that told me the town was looking for a 12% increase but got too much push back from residents. They "found money" somewhere to keep the increase down. Where did this "found money' come from? Did they have a surplus from the previous year?

[Biggd]

Ah, Ok. Understand. I wasn't thinking it was a nursing home, which is very different than Assisted Living. In my in-laws Assisted Living place, they have an apartment, but go to the dining room for all their meals and the staff gives them their medications and there is a pub and regular entertainment. There is no ownership/equity, however...just straight rental payments. I was not aware that there were places where residents could have an equity participation.

I learned something new today. Thanks!This couple picked this particular facility because it was close to their children.
I know this is off topic, but this is what many elderly owners face when taxes go beyond what is affordable to them even though they own the property out right and waterfront is not a priority any longer.

[BroadHopper]

Entry to one of these communities is income-based. You can buy a cottage with an HOA, or you can rent an apartment. I consider the initial investment as long-term care insurance. No matter what happens you are taken care of until passed. They use any income you have such as annuity, pensions, etc as well as your social security as factors for monthly rent. They even used Medicare and any supplement you may have to pay for medical costs. So the initial investment varies among individuals. When you pass, if you have extra money in savings and annuities, they will be passed to your heirs.

You need to check it out and not base your thinking on hearsay. I can live in my condo off campus should I sign up. If I need assisted living or nursing care. I'm covered. I also enjoy all the benefits of the community such as social events, gym, dining/cafe et al. I enjoy at-home care if needed. It's worth looking into in your late years.

[TheProfessor]

My property tax bill up again in Meredith.:(
Anyone else see a significant increase?

Nice newer huge police station, nice newer fire station, nice recreation center, subsidized lake docks, and on and on.

Who decided that town taxpayers should be in the recreation business?

[pondguy]

Also, a new Library and DPW building a new Town Hall will probably be next.

[Biggd]

Nice newer huge police station, nice newer fire station, nice recreation center, subsidized lake docks, and on and on.

Who decided that town taxpayers should be in the recreation business?At least I'm glad to visually see where my taxes are going. I wouldn't exactly call the police and fire stations recreational facilities.
After talking with the guy last night, I'm happy they didn't take the 12%.

[John Mercier]

Nice newer huge police station, nice newer fire station, nice recreation center, subsidized lake docks, and on and on.

Who decided that town taxpayers should be in the recreation business?
The town voters.

[tis]

Nice newer huge police station, nice newer fire station, nice recreation center, subsidized lake docks, and on and on.

Who decided that town taxpayers should be in the recreation business?

Yes. Wolfeboro a town of 6000 has a ski slope and a hockey rink. I agree, recreation in a lot of these towns is out of control.

[tbonies]

Although a SB2 town doesn't have a "town meeting" at which they vote on many of the articles, they do have a "deliberative session" before voting day where the taxpayers can become more informed and can propose changes to amendments if they want to. So this is where you have your "exchange of ideas". I agree, it's not easy to find out information, you have to work for it.

Nice to see a thoughtful well reasoned post amongst all the annual tax whiners.

[Descant]

Nice newer huge police station, nice newer fire station, nice recreation center, subsidized lake docks, and on and on.

Who decided that town taxpayers should be in the recreation business?
Lakefront towns often get substantial sums of money from boat registrations that they put back into docks, beaches, etc. These are all good for our biggest industry: tourism.

As we have national parks, and state parks, we have local parks and recreation. In many towns, facilities like hockey rinks and swimming pools were paid for by advocate groups and service clubs who did fundraising. Sometimes a bequest provided seed money. In Merrimack, the Trustees of Trust Funds manage several million dollars that benefit schools, library, parks, etc. These millions started out as bequests that have grown, some more recent that will grow. In recent years, we spent $100K four years in a row to upgrade 4 school libraries. We spent $300K to make gymnasium bleachers ADA compliant and rebuilt the playing surfaces that were 50 years old. Some years ago (250th anniversary) a group of citizens organized the town to build a park and bandstand at NO cost to the taxpayers. That's who decided, along with the voters. This goes on all over the place, but nobody knows it.

[FlyingScot]

This couple picked this particular facility because it was close to their children.
I know this is off topic, but this is what many elderly owners face when taxes go beyond what is affordable to them even though they own the property out right and waterfront is not a priority any longer.

I'm pretty sure my parents live in this very facility--Brooksby Village? With all due respect, your posts are a tad misleading. The target Brooksby buyer is moving in because they are no longer able/willing to maintain their house. The basic economics are that you sell your home and use the proceeds to buy a condo. As noted above, your children sell the condo at a controlled price when you die. You're not going to make $ off your condo, but this is not an economic hardship, it's just being old. So unless the couple is different than the typical Brooksby buyer, I think this is different than being forced off the lake due to taxes.

Brooksby is a very nice place for folks no longer able to maintain a house, and as noted above, they have various levels of nursing care available. Plus good food and social stuff--it's kind of like a college dorm for old people

[TiltonBB]

Brooksby is a very nice place for folks no longer able to maintain a house, and as noted above, they have various levels of nursing care available. Plus good food and social stuff--it's kind of like a college dorm for old people

I have an elderly friend who has lived at Brooksby Village for over 20 years. She and her husband sold their very nice home in an upscale community nearby and he has since passed It is a good social setting for people who are not as mobile as they once were. The monthly fee for a two bedroom is currently $3,511 after a buy in of $438,000 to $578,000 and includes meals, cable, internet, and all utilities and taxes. It is not for everyone but it is an option for many.

https://www.ericksonseniorliving.com/brooksby-village/about-us

[ApS]

Yes. Wolfeboro a town of 6000 has a ski slope and a hockey rink. I agree, recreation in a lot of these towns is out of control.

For Wolfeboro, 6000 sounded low, so I checked. The 2023 estimate (the newest) is 6600.

What stood out (to me) was finding 17% are under 18 years old. (I would have guessed a lower number). :confused:

Wolfeboro's ski slope has been around for many seasons, so it must be the hockey rink that is costly.

[Biggd]

I'm pretty sure my parents live in this very facility--Brooksby Village? With all due respect, your posts are a tad misleading. The target Brooksby buyer is moving in because they are no longer able/willing to maintain their house. The basic economics are that you sell your home and use the proceeds to buy a condo. As noted above, your children sell the condo at a controlled price when you die. You're not going to make $ off your condo, but this is not an economic hardship, it's just being old. So unless the couple is different than the typical Brooksby buyer, I think this is different than being forced off the lake due to taxes.

Brooksby is a very nice place for folks no longer able to maintain a house, and as noted above, they have various levels of nursing care available. Plus good food and social stuff--it's kind of like a college dorm for old peopleThey aren't forced to sell because of taxes but he did tell me that his children couldn't afford to take the place over so that was a factor in their decision. They are fortunate that the property is worth a lot of money, but they were hoping to finish out their lives there. They added a handicap ramp to aid in their staying in the home but that was eventually not enough to keep them in the home.
At some point the waterfront becomes a burden more than a place of peace and serenity. But others in my neighborhood have cashed out because the cost of keeping their homes has exceeded their income level and the value to sell high was too tempting.
Everyone has their own crosses to bare.

[winterh]

Yes. Wolfeboro a town of 6000 has a ski slope and a hockey rink. I agree, recreation in a lot of these towns is out of control.

How much does the town chip in to keep the rink and ski slope going? I know they recently renovated the rink. No idea where the funds came from. I would like to think the rink is close to break even with all the ice rentals.

[Weekend Pundit]

How much does the town chip in to keep the rink and ski slope going? I know they recently renovated the rink. No idea where the funds came from. I would like to think the rink is close to break even with all the ice rentals.

I can't speak to how Wolfeboro funded its rink, but Gilford just got a grant to help renovate its rink. The town has to match the grant funds, something that has to be approved by voters in March. The town still has to pay for the renovations, but only half of what it would have otherwise paid if not for the grant.

[tis]

For Wolfeboro, 6000 sounded low, so I checked. The 2023 estimate (the newest) is 6600.

What stood out (to me) was finding 17% are under 18 years old. (I would have guessed a lower number). :confused:

Wolfeboro's ski slope has been around for many seasons, so it must be the hockey rink that is costly.

They just built a new hockey rink- don't quote me but I think it was around 13 million and part of it was raised by donation but I don't remember how much. In recent years they got a new tow, a new building and they make snow.

[tis]

How much does the town chip in to keep the rink and ski slope going? I know they recently renovated the rink. No idea where the funds came from. I would like to think the rink is close to break even with all the ice rentals.

I would love to know the answer to your questions but it's not easy to find out. I think Back Bay Hockey wanted to buy the rink but I don't think the town wanted to give it up. As I said to APS, making snow can't be cheap and they make it for the ski slope.

[jeffk]

Although a SB2 town doesn't have a "town meeting" at which they vote on many of the articles, they do have a "deliberative session" before voting day where the taxpayers can become more informed and can propose changes to amendments if they want to. So this is where you have your "exchange of ideas". I agree, it's not easy to find out information, you have to work for it.

I was aware of this and absolutely agree that you COULD go to the "deliberative session" if they wanted to. However, people pushing SB2 were emphasizing the problem of sitting through the long combined deliberative session and voting. They emphasized the ease of just voting (cluelessly) under SB2.

I don't think SB2 encourages responsible citizenship. "Easy" citizenship, yup.

[John Mercier]

In the modern world, where much of the population doesn't have a standard schedule, ease means something.

It does make it a bit more difficult for those that support a spending line to make their case in a differing format.

[jeffk]

If you seek easy solutions, you deserve the results that you get.

[John Mercier]

I've been fairly happy with our results.

SB2 allows me to vote on the issue, even if I can't make the schedule due to work/etc.

Very few things are emergencies, and the basic items we generally understand.

[tis]

In the modern world, where much of the population doesn't have a standard schedule, ease means something.

It does make it a bit more difficult for those that support a spending line to make their case in a differing format.

Are you saying you think the deliberate session is more difficult than the town meeting? Not sure what you mean.

[Diver1111]

As I sell Long Term Care Insurance and have for 25 years, in my experience, the whole Down Payment question is only associated with Continuing Care Retirement Communities aka CCRCs.

CCRCs allow for "aging in place" meaning while you may reside in an "Independent" area on the grounds at first, as your needs increase you can move to the Assisted Living Facility/ALF area on the same grounds, perhaps a Nursing Facility also on the same grounds and the most expensive-the Memory Care unit or wing. Bottom line is that you don't have to move-the CCRC theoretically can provide soup-to-nuts services in one location.

While I have not read an Application to a CCRC in a long time, all have some sort of sum of money you must produce as part of the move to a CCRC. Some give some of back at death, some I have read give perhaps 90% back at death etc.. While they are similar contractually, no CCRC I have encountered is the same. Read everything they give you.

CCRCs may not look like one especially if you only focus on say, the ALF part.

No ALF any of my Clients have ever moved to required any Down Payment of any kind. You choose and pay for any services you need above what is included in the Contract w/the montlhy rent according to any Plan-of-Care/POC you may have.

Contrary to popular opinion Long Term Care Policies pay for all sorts of things provided at a CCRC as long as you meet the claims criteria. Where you live is for the most part not even relevant.

Some folks cancel their LTC Insurance coverage because-for whatever reason-they were under the impression that because they paid money upfront to move into a CCRC that the coverage was redundant-not so and generally a big mistake.

[John Mercier]

Are you saying you think the deliberate session is more difficult than the town meeting? Not sure what you mean.

Probably about the same...
But the schedule is harder.

SB2, I have all day to vote and it only takes a couple minutes.
The deliberate session, I can choose to attend or not depending on if I have an issue I want to address.

In town meeting, you have to sit through the whole thing and watch issues hashed out that sometimes are more a pet peeve than serious savings/spending.

[tis]

Probably about the same...
But the schedule is harder.

SB2, I have all day to vote and it only takes a couple minutes.
The deliberate session, I can choose to attend or not depending on if I have an issue I want to address.

In town meeting, you have to sit through the whole thing and watch issues hashed out that sometimes are more a pet peeve than serious savings/spending.

So you're saying the town meeting is harder because you can't vote without sitting through the meeting right? I agree and the town meeting is often at night and runs very late so that sometimes people leave and then a vote can be brought up again and revoted.

[TheProfessor]

Also, a new Library and DPW building a new Town Hall will probably be next.

"They" want everything. Yet complain when it comes time to pay for such.

I hear over and over that these same people are against "big governement" yet wish to build and buy the biggest and bestest of "stuff" - by that same government that they so dispise.

[tis]

"They" want everything. Yet complain when it comes time to pay for such.

I hear over and over that these same people are against "big governement" yet wish to build and buy the biggest and bestest of "stuff" - by that same government that they so dispise.

It used to be what was needed. Now it's big Christmas wishes and dreams.

[John Mercier]

So you're saying the town meeting is harder because you can't vote without sitting through the meeting right? I agree and the town meeting is often at night and runs very late so that sometimes people leave and then a vote can be brought up again and revoted.

Correct.
The process is not timely for those with certain schedules, and we no longer live in a society were communication is limited.

[Biggd]

"They" want everything. Yet complain when it comes time to pay for such.

I hear over and over that these same people are against "big governement" yet wish to build and buy the biggest and bestest of "stuff" - by that same government that they so dispise.I never met anyone that enjoys paying more for something every year. :confused:
I am glad I can see the improvements my tax contributions are making to the town and I'm happy I own a home in Meredith but that doesn't mean I should enjoy paying more every year. I'm happy with all the improvements Meredith has made. It's made owning a home there much more enjoyable. I hope I can afford to continue to own it for years to come, that's my concern. The past few years with high inflation has cut deep into my retirement spending, esp insurances, so if I seem like I'm complaining too much I apologize.
Voicing a concern on this forum should be accepted, not condemned.
If you're happy with paying more money every year, then I'm happy for you. By the way, I don't "dispise" Government.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

[secondcurve]

I'm pretty sure my parents live in this very facility--Brooksby Village? With all due respect, your posts are a tad misleading. The target Brooksby buyer is moving in because they are no longer able/willing to maintain their house. The basic economics are that you sell your home and use the proceeds to buy a condo. As noted above, your children sell the condo at a controlled price when you die. You're not going to make $ off your condo, but this is not an economic hardship, it's just being old. So unless the couple is different than the typical Brooksby buyer, I think this is different than being forced off the lake due to taxes.

Brooksby is a very nice place for folks no longer able to maintain a house, and as noted above, they have various levels of nursing care available. Plus good food and social stuff--it's kind of like a college dorm for old people

The one hidden danger with places like brooksby is you aren’t actually buying a condo. Said another way there is no security for your “buy in”. If Brooksby goes bust you have an unsecured bankruptcy claim. It’s happened in the past. See the attached article https://www.fa-mag.com/news/americans-risk-losing-life-savings-when-retirement-homes-go-bust-80550.html

[FlyingScot]

The one hidden danger with places like brooksby is you aren’t actually buying a condo. Said another way there is no security for your “buy in”. If Brooksby goes bust you have an unsecured bankruptcy claim. It’s happened in the past. See the attached article https://www.fa-mag.com/news/americans-risk-losing-life-savings-when-retirement-homes-go-bust-80550.html

Very interesting. I did not check this before they moved in, but Brooksby has all the qualitative signs of a well financed stable place, and I've had aunts and uncles living there for decades. If I had to do this again, I would check more carefully on their parent, as you suggest. (Separately, I would not say that a condo is risk-free wrt exposure on others' potential financial woes.)

Nevertheless, I would still recommend Brooksby unreservedly to any whose life-stage/financial situation fits

[secondcurve]

Very interesting. I did not check this before they moved in, but Brooksby has all the qualitative signs of a well financed stable place, and I've had aunts and uncles living there for decades. If I had to do this again, I would check more carefully on their parent, as you suggest. (Separately, I would not say that a condo is risk-free wrt exposure on others' potential financial woes.)

Nevertheless, I would still recommend Brooksby unreservedly to any whose life-stage/financial situation fits

I agree with your assessment. I’ve never heard anyone say anything bad about Brooksby and I have friends whose parents are there and they all say positive things about the community so it is highly likely Brooksby is financially solid. That being said, if I ever wind up considering that community or one like it I’d look at the credit profile of the entity as part of my diligence. On the way in the typical resident is leaving their home that they have often been in for many years while Brooksby is scrutinizing their financial condition so it is typically traumatic
for the soon to be resident and few think to ask about the credit of Brooksby. As a result, I wanted to share what I have learned about the industry.

[winnisquam]

Sanbornton waterfront. Tax assessment went up 112%, just over $2M now. Taxes went from $20K to $26K a year. Filed an abatement with solid basis of six larger properties and more frontage, denied!

We have 3 seasonal camps with an apartment over a garage on 2 acres with 175' of frontage all built between 1950 and 1974.

Their basis is market value. All dwellings are grandfathered so we can tear down and rebuild with year-round homes or sell the property with the same intent, so getting taxed on what we could do!

[Biggd]

Sanbornton waterfront. Tax assessment went up 112%, just over $2M now. Taxes went from $20K to $26K a year. Filed an abatement with solid basis of six larger properties and more frontage, denied!

We have 3 seasonal camps with an apartment over a garage on 2 acres with 175' of frontage all built between 1950 and 1974.

Their basis is market value. All dwellings are grandfathered so we can tear down and rebuild with year-round homes or sell the property with the same intent, so getting taxed on what we could do!My father inlaw had a camp in Sanbornton, not on the water but steps to the town beach. When he passed 10 years ago it was left to his 5 children, the oldest bought the other 4 out. I had just purchased my house in Meredith, I have water rights and a dock. He pays almost twice as much as me in taxes and his property and house is half the size. Across the street from him is a small camp, under 500 sq ft, on 200ft of prime waterfront with an outrageous tax bill.
When we were looking to buy, Laconia and Sanbornton were out of the question because of the high taxes.

[secondcurve]

Sanbornton waterfront. Tax assessment went up 112%, just over $2M now. Taxes went from $20K to $26K a year. Filed an abatement with solid basis of six larger properties and more frontage, denied!

We have 3 seasonal camps with an apartment over a garage on 2 acres with 175' of frontage all built between 1950 and 1974.

Their basis is market value. All dwellings are grandfathered so we can tear down and rebuild with year-round homes or sell the property with the same intent, so getting taxed on what we could do!

Actually, I think you are paying taxes on a valuable piece of land. There is only so much waterfront and two acre lots with 175 feet of frontage and multiple foot prints are much sought after. It would be nice to broaden the tax base so government wasn’t so reliant upon property taxes. Unfortunately, that will never happen because the politicians would use such a change to increase tax receipts. Until something changes property owners are going to bear the burden.

[John Mercier]

Our State government runs on largely income and sales taxes, that are partially transferred to the municipalities to lower the property taxes.

The only thing currently in the works is court cases to remove the SWEPT retainment and another to possibly increase the State education grants.

[The Real BigGuy]

Who pays “income tax” in NH?


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[The Real BigGuy]

Sanbornton waterfront. Tax assessment went up 112%, just over $2M now. Taxes went from $20K to $26K a year. Filed an abatement with solid basis of six larger properties and more frontage, denied!

We have 3 seasonal camps with an apartment over a garage on 2 acres with 175' of frontage all built between 1950 and 1974.

Their basis is market value. All dwellings are grandfathered so we can tear down and rebuild with year-round homes or sell the property with the same intent, so getting taxed on what we could do!


Did your assessment go up 112% or 12%? If it actually went up 112% that means it was assessed at less than $1M before.


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[TomC]

Who pays “income tax” in NH?

Business Profit tax can be thought of as an income tax for business owners. Dividends and Interest is also taxed, so if you live on that - your income is taxed...

[The Real BigGuy]

I agree! However the State of NH would disagree. They can’t possibly let the public think the State has an “Income Tax”! That would violate all of the politicos campaign promises![emoji33]


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[ITD]

Who pays “income tax” in NH?


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There is a tax on interest and dividends in NH, but it is being phased out, this is the last year of that tax.

[John Mercier]

BET also includes the income.

The State of NH doesn't have a ''general'' income or sales tax.

Income and sales taxes have the problem that the revenue moves up and down with the economy... while the property tax has stable revenue.

[tis]

I agree, BPT and BET are definitely income taxes.

[The Real BigGuy]

I sometimes believe that Nh’rs complain too much about the “income tax” they pay in the form of BET & BPT. First, let us not forget that BET is/can be deducted from BPT and second, a very small percentage of the population are subject to business taxes. BET/BPT are not dissimilar to business taxes in other states.


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