Lets bring in the Coast Guard!!!!!

[WolfieBayer]

With Marine Patrol basically being made up of college students looking for a part time job on the lake instead of working at Starbucks, I'm puzzled as to how they are going to enforce a speed limit on the lake. Two summers ago I was fishing with a friend of mine, in a secluded cove with no open traffic lanes close by and Marine Patrol gave my friend a ticket for not having his lights turned on. Instead of saying "Guys, its 20 minutes past the time you need to have your lights on, why don't you turn them on to be safe", these two college boys must have needed to meet their ticket quota for the day. With mentality like this, how will they be able to enforce a law where speedometers on boats are not mandatory nor regulated.

I laugh at the suggestion that people are "afraid" to go on the lakes because of speeding boats. Perhaps we should regulate small boats and canoes and only allow them to venture out 150 feet from shore since the laws regulate the speeds of boats within 150 feet of shore.

Several years ago I watched a boat t-bone another boat..........at the Town Docks. These boats were going headway speed and one boat was sunk. Speed had no involvement here. Another year I watched a boat bring in a person who died from having his leg amputated because the driver of the boat he was in was drunk and slowed his boat abruptly and the victim fell in front of his own boat. And then we have the "Chappaquiddick" incident in Meredith where I'm not convinced speed had anything to do with that either but seems to be a major catalyst for this house bill.

Perhaps for enforcement, if this bill passes the Senate, which I'll do everything in my power to prevent, we should dissolve the Marine Patrol and have the U.S. Coast Guard protect our lakes. They're good at it and probably have the funding to buy more than the 3 radar guns that are reported to be available to Marine Patrol.

There are already regulations pertaining to certain waterbodys whereas you can't have a gasoline powered boat on the water. This not only provides environmental protection for these smaller bodies of water, it also provides a safe haven for canoers, kayakers, etc, etc. If you are afraid and want to go slow, seek out these small ponds and lakes, or simply stay close to shore.

Please don't let this unenforceable bill pass and don't let hype help make up your mind if this is a good thing for the state or not.

[Cal]

There are already regulations pertaining to certain waterbodys whereas you can't have a gasoline powered boat on the water. This not only provides environmental protection for these smaller bodies of water, it also provides a safe haven for canoers, kayakers, etc, etc. If you are afraid and want to go slow, seek out these small ponds and lakes, or simply stay close to shore.


My feeling exactly. There are plenty of places I already cannot go. Why must canoers and kayakers take advantage of or take over control of places I can go?
Kind of like the bicyclers who insist on riding on narrow twisty , turny , two lane roads:confused: . You come over a hill , pulling a trailer and here comes another vehicle toward you and a cyclist in your lane:eek:. Slam the brakes on or even lock them up and the cyclist has the audacity to signal you that you a #1:rolleye2:. Maybe I'm missing something here but I wouldn't think of riding a bike in places like this( and I do ride for exercise) nor would I consider taking my 27' power boat 50 miles offshore.
If you find the little safe ponds and streams so boring , you must LIKE the thrill that comes with the big lake. So now you wish to make it boring too?

[Evenstar]

My feeling exactly. There are plenty of places I already cannot go. Why must canoers and kayakers take advantage of or take over control of places I can go?
... If you find the little safe ponds and streams so boring , you must LIKE the thrill that comes with the big lake. So now you wish to make it boring too?
How many times have I heard the opponents of the speed limit say that the lake should be for everyone? That a speed limit would infringe on their rights? Yet you seem to think that kayaks and canoes should just not use the lake. What about our rights?

The speed limit does not mean that high speed boats can't use the lake, only that they have to slow down. That's all.

Like I've stated many times on this forum: I own a 16 foot sea kayak. It's made for large lakes, flat rivers, and coastal waters. It's not made for ponds. I paddle about 20 miles in an afternoon, and I like being out in large waves. Yet you guys think that I should stick to little ponds!

FYI: Speeding boats do not make a lake more exciting for kayaks - We count on Mother Nature to do that.

[Wannabe]

The lake should be for everyone, if they wish to be included. If certain people are scared of the lake or scared of certain boats, then some people just say "no one is making you stay here."

It's like if one person can't swim, the whole public lap pool should be 2 feet deep so that that one person can stand, when he wishes to take a dip? :look: It's restricting everyone so that a certain group can feel 100% comfortable at all times. Sometimes it seems selfish to me.
You count on mother nature to make the large waves on large lakes and flat rivers? Then those windy white caps are the best kayaking weather? I never see anyone on the lake when mother nature makes the big waves though. :confused:

Not trying to start the whole HB162 argument here. Just not quite understanding the argument.

I agree with the initial post. The accidents/incidents I've seen on the lake have also been at low speeds. I don't understand why they would pass a law without a reliable way to enforce it.
IF the bill is passed, marine patrol obviously doesn't have the necessary resources. Also, I heard the radar guns, now being quoted at $7,000 cannot even accurately record speeds on water? Something about having to be parallel to the object and stationary? Why are they still talking about radar guns, is there a new technology available now? Not understanding that part.
Thanks! Can't wait till summer either way, I'll be out there no matter what! ;)

[Evenstar]

The lake should be for everyone, if they wish to be included. If certain people are scared of the lake or scared of certain boats, then some people just say "no one is making you stay here."

It's like if one person can't swim, the whole public lap pool should be 2 feet deep so that that one person can stand, when he wishes to take a dip? :look: It's restricting everyone so that a certain group can feel 100% comfortable at all times. Sometimes it seems selfish to me.
You count on mother nature to make the large waves on large lakes and flat rivers? Then those windy white caps are the best kayaking weather? I never see anyone on the lake when mother nature makes the big waves though. :confused:
Ok, I’m going to try to explain this to you:

First of all I never said that gusty winds and whitecaps were the best conditions for kayaking - I said that Mother Nature provides all the excitement that we need. But I really have been out on large lakes on all sorts of conditions. I’ve been out in downpours – in 4 foot waves – in very gusty winds - in very cold water (I kayaked last season from mid April, into early November).

So I'm not asking to feel 100% comfortable on our lakes - I'm just asking for equality and that equality includes equal safety from other boaters. It's fairly easy to feel safe out on a large lake in a large powerboat, even with other boats speeding by. It's very different to be out there in a kayak, because you're much more vulnerable when you’re in a boat that is only 23 inches wide and sits just 10 inches out of the water. My 16 foot kayak only weighs 53 pounds. If I’m hit by a large speeding boat, my kayak will be completely destroyed, and I’ll be hurt really badly (at best).

Here are the facts:
1.) The faster you are going, the more distance you cover in the same time period.
2.) Under the same conditions, your reaction times remain exactly the same.
3.) So my chances of being hit by a powerboat increase proportionally as the speed of that boat increases.
4.) I am much more likely to be hit out on the main lake by a boat traveling at 90mph than I am by a boat going 45mpm.

If a powerboat is headed directly at me, and the operator doesn’t happen to notice me until he’s within 150 feet (because of waves, sun, spray, glare on the water, or glare off his windshield – whatever). If it takes the operator just one second to react – which boat will come to closest to hitting me – one that is traveling at 45mph or one that is traveling at 90mph? In that one second, the boat traveling at 45 mph will come 66 feet closer – the one traveling at 90mph will come 132 feet closer.

That’s the problem – it’s like taking a jet ski into a swimming pool and wondering why the swimmers aren’t willing to share the pool with you.

[Woodsy]

There was an attempt along time ago to allow the U.S. Coast Guard to patrol Lake Winnipesaukee. It was shot down (rightly so) in the House of Representatives.

Woodsy

The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

[fatlazyless]

That's right, the Coast Guard is known as the shallow water navy, and all Coasties have to be at least 6'2" tall in case their boat sinks. Lake Winnipesaukee with its' deepest spot of 185' or something was way over their heads! Plus, there's no drug smugglers here crossing from Alton Bay on up to Governor's Island on a dark & stormy night. Way too boring for the Coastie's!

[WolfieBayer]

FYI: Speeding boats do not make a lake more exciting for kayaks - We count on Mother Nature to do that.


Here's a perfect example of why this law will not work. Again, there are already laws on the books protecting you and others from speeding boats. Its called the 150ft head way speed regulation. But yet again, this reg. is not enforced except by happenstance. I fish a lot on this lake and have been several places where boats come by me on plane within casting distance of a fishing lure. What do I do? I grin and bear it. Thats life and there are law breakers everywhere, even on the water.

Look at the Graveyard outside 19 mile bay. Regs. say you have to go headway speed through all channels but I've seen on more occasions than not boats going through the channel on plane. Again, a law on the books, unenforced except by happenstance.

A speed limit on the lake will not make you safer. Maybe a bicycle flag on your Kayak would help instead.

I recall one evening watching a flock of Kayakers leaving the town docks, at dusk, with these tiny little lamps attached to their Kayaks. The funny thing is, if the Kayaker was paddling away from you the light was blocked by their body but I'm sure they would have been the first to complain if a boat hadn't seen their candle in the wind.

Mind you, I am a canoer as well and have spent a lot of time on the big lake as both a power boater and a canoer. If I take my canoe out, I assume the risk of bringing a little water craft onto a big lake.

You say you like big waves on the lake? Well, anything over a 2 foot chop eliminates any boat less than 25 feet in length from going over 30 mph, unless the driver wants to pick their teeth up off of the floor.

Do what they did in Meredith Bay and make some areas headway speed. Thats fine, but leave the open lake open.

Another poor example of legislation was the year that the lake levels were so high that a headway speed rule was imposed for the entire lake because of landowners complaints regarding their shorelines eroding away. The funniest thing I saw during this period were boats going headway speed in in the broads while 3 foot rollers passed them by. Again, another example of the will of the few out weighing the good of the many.

I'm sure I'm saying things that have already been said but I've just started reading all the hoopla over this bill.

[Lakegeezer]

Look at the Graveyard outside 19 mile bay. Regs. say you have to go headway speed through all channels but I've seen on more occasions than not boats going through the channel on plane. Again, a law on the books, unenforced except by happenstance.

Another poor example of legislation was the year that the lake levels were so high that a headway speed rule was imposed for the entire lake because of landowners complaints regarding their shorelines eroding away.

Your statement about going at headway speed through the graveyard is a surprise to me. Is that really a marked channel that requires headway speed, or just 10 bouys that mark the only way through the rocks? I've always assumed the latter.

On the topic of headway speed rule. I liked it because I only lost 2 feet of shoreline that year instead of four. But - going at headway speed for two weekends killed my boat. Unbeknownst to me, the oil injector wasn't working well at idle speed and I burnt the rings in my motor.

[Dave R]

I don't support the speed limit but can assure you it'll be easy to issue tickets and get convictions. Radar works just fine on water and while the speed reading is a function of the angle of incidence, it will never read too high when it's in error, only too low. For instance, if the boat is passing the radar at 30 degrees, the speed reading will be 86.6 percent of actual speed.

[GWC...]

Perhaps we should regulate small boats and canoes and only allow them to venture out 150 feet from shore since the laws regulate the speeds of boats within 150 feet of shore.

That would require common sense, something most government officials lack.

Also, the "girlie-men" would still be fearful of the voyage from shore to their island property, albeit a short distance for most. ;) :D :D :D

[WolfieBayer]

Your statement about going at headway speed through the graveyard is a surprise to me. Is that really a marked channel that requires headway speed, or just 10 bouys that mark the only way through the rocks? I've always assumed the latter.


According to the maps, there isn't a differentiation between safe passage ways and channels. Same buoys mark the hole in the wall.

Tough break about your boat. I have no doubt some of your shoreline was saved but you're probably leeward. The no wake probably didn't help any windward shores.

[jrc]

...
Look at the Graveyard outside 19 mile bay. Regs. say you have to go headway speed through all channels but I've seen on more occasions than not boats going through the channel on plane. Again, a law on the books, unenforced except by happenstance...

I cannot find a law regarding speed through channels. RSA 270-D:2 says

VI. (a) To provide full visibility and control and to prevent their wake from being thrown into or causing excessive rocking to other boats, barges, water skiers, aquaplanes or other boats, rafts or floats, all vessels shall maintain headway speed when within 150 feet from:
(1) Rafts, floats, swimmers.
(2) Permitted swimming areas.
(3) Shore.
(4) Docks.
(5) Mooring fields.
(6) Other vessels.

Most channels are "no wake zones" but the Graveyard is not. Unless there is another boats within 150 feet, why can't you go through on plane?

[Seaplane Pilot]

According to the maps, there isn't a differentiation between safe passage ways and channels. Same buoys mark the hole in the wall.

Hole The Wall is marked as a no-wake zone, but Graveyard is not. I think the issue with the Graveyard is that there may not enough distance between the markers to maintain the 150' safe passage distance. Theoretically, there would have to be 167' between the markers (I think:confused: ) to allow 2 boats with 8'6" beams to pass without going headway speed. Maybe Bizer can inform us of the distance between the markers in the Graveyard. Similar situation with the markers off of the east side of Long Island near FL 58.

[Wannabe]

Would radar detectors be legal on the lake IF the bill passes? haha :D
maybe i'd be free to have that at least.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Hole The Wall is marked as a no-wake zone, but Graveyard is not. I think the issue with the Graveyard is that there may not enough distance between the markers to maintain the 150' safe passage distance. Theoretically, there would have to be 167' between the markers (I think:confused: ) to allow 2 boats with 8'6" beams to pass without going headway speed. Maybe Bizer can inform us of the distance between the markers in the Graveyard. Similar situation with the markers off of the east side of Long Island near FL 58.

There is no 150 foot rule with regard to markers or navigation aids. Unless there is some OTHER reason to slow down the markers do not require headway speed.

Stay on plane right next to Flashing Light 1 or hug FL 3 (near Fatlazyless's place) for instance. No need to stay 150 feet from those markers or the one on Nipple Rock and on and on. The marker in and of itself is no reason to slow to headway speed.

You still have to be at headway within 150' of kayaks, boats, swimmers, swim lines, land (not rocks out in the lake), rafts, docks and such (see jrc's message, #13 in this thread) . But no 150' rule with regard to navigation aids.

side note, I think kayaks and PWCs would be more visible with a long fiberglass whip and a flag attached.

Safe boating.

[pm203]

Would radar detectors be legal on the lake IF the bill passes? haha :D
maybe i'd be free to have that at least.
Detectors and Jammers will be the new standard stealth equipment.But, don,t worry,HB162 will fail in the senate

[Seaplane Pilot]

There is no 150 foot rule with regard to markers or navigation aids. Unless there is some OTHER reason to slow down the markers do not require headway speed.

Stay on plane right next to Flashing Light 1 or hug FL 3 (near Fatlazyless's place) for instance. No need to stay 150 feet from those markers or the one on Nipple Rock and on and on. The marker in and of itself is no reason to slow to headway speed.

You still have to be at headway within 150' of kayaks, boats, swimmers, swim lines, land (not rocks out in the lake), rafts, docks and such (see jrc's message, #13 in this thread) . But no 150' rule with regard to navigation aids.

side note, I think kayaks and PWCs would be more visible with a long fiberglass whip and a flag attached.

Safe boating.

Let me clarify my earlier statement. I didn't mean to imply that the markers themselves had anything to do with the 150' rule. What I meant was that the markers are marking a navigable channel (in this case at the Graveyard) and boats cannot pass outside of these markers without risking some significant damage. Therefore, if two boats are passing one another within the markers, and the markers themselves are not far enough apart to allow 150' between the two passing boats, they either have to slow to headway speed or one boat has to travel outside the marker (risking damage by the hazard that the marker is marking).

[jrc]

... if two boats are passing one another within the markers, and the markers themselves are not far enough apart to allow 150' between the two passing boats, they either have to slow to headway speed or one boat has to travel outside the marker...

Yes, that's exactly how I read the rule.

[Evenstar]

A speed limit on the lake will not make you safer. Maybe a bicycle flag on your Kayak would help instead.
My kayak is bright red on top with a white hull. And I wear a red PFD.
I usually kayak with a friend of mine, who has the same boat in yellow/white. Together, this combination is very visible in almost any condition.

A bicycle flag sticking out of the water isn't really going to make us much more visible. And it would act like a sail in winds, making it very difficult to keep my kayak from tipping over in any cross winds. Plus it would make self rescues and rolls impossible. These are narrow sea kayaks, not wide recreational kayaks. You have to be able to put this type of kayak on edge, just to steer it - which would be nearly impossible with a flag catching the wind.

The fact is that the only boats that ever seem to have any trouble seeing us are the ones moving at the higher speeds.

I kayak on Squam all the time. Squam has a speed limit. Squam is a safer lake for kayaks and canoes because of its speed limit. Slowing down high speed boats will make any lake safer. This isn't exactly rocket science.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

:laugh: Let me clarify my earlier statement. I didn't mean to imply that the markers themselves had anything to do with the 150' rule. What I meant was that the markers are marking a navigable channel (in this case at the Graveyard) and boats cannot pass outside of these markers without risking some significant damage. Therefore, if two boats are passing one another within the markers, and the markers themselves are not far enough apart to allow 150' between the two passing boats, they either have to slow to headway speed or one boat has to travel outside the marker (risking damage by the hazard that the marker is marking).

Sorry 'bout that Seaplane Pilot. I didn't fully digest your post before I replied (my bad). I didn't think that there was 150' between Graveyard markers so had no thought of two boats passing through there at anything above headway.

I agree with you and jrc. Graveyard is too narrow for TWO boats to pass at more than headway. Any reading comprehension courses around the lake, I may need a refresher :laugh: ?

[fatlazyless]

Watching the gf-bl's fly by on the crowded choppy lake the driver's eyesight ahead is not all that clear. The water is choppy, the boat is going fast, it's bouncing around, it's up on plane, there'a a big long hull ahead between the water and the driver. So, how good can the driver's eye of the water-road ahead be? Not all that great!

Many gf-bl's have special padded seats in a padded seat well, where the seat bottom electrically hinges down as the boat speeds up so the driver and passenger is standing and can us their legs-knees as a shock absorber and be 3/4 surrounded by an all-padded seat well. What they do is to drive these high speed 32' - 8000lb-1150hp gf-bl's while personally positioned in the security of their own little well-padded cell. Add in all the sunshine, heat, humidity, noise, music, chit-chat, and _______ to the the choppy waves and speed and it's understandable why seeing a kayak is not so easy.

[hazelnut]

I have no dog in this fight, however:

Wolfiebayer,

You lose credibility when you post incorrect information in your argument. There is NO LAW regulating the speed through the markers at the Graveyard. That is NOT a channel. It is an area marking rocks for navigation purposes only. Any boater may legally pass through that area, on plane, at any speed. The one exception was noted here. That is if another boat is coming through the area it is too narrow to pass 150 feet apart legally, therefore you must come off plane. Often times this is the rule that is broken in that area.

Hole in the wall is in fact a No Wake Zone if the Graveyard was a No Wake Zone it would be marked as such.

I will say that I would have liked to see the Boater Regulation Laws full effect before they enacted a speed limit but......... I guess that is not going to happen.

[WolfieBayer]

Geeesh, after all those years of thinking I was breaking the law by going through the Graveyard at 60 mph my conscious is finally clear.

[hazelnut]

LOL :laugh:

You are not a Law Breaker after all

[Silver Duck]

Evenstar

You are absolutely correct; you do have every right to be out in the main parts of the lake in your kayak. And, motorboat operators have an absolute duty to be aware of your presence and avoid you!

With that said, FLL is correct in saying that a kayak is not always easy to spot (for anyone, not just performance boaters).

If some nincompoop is outrunning his "good visibity distance" (something I've seen all manner of boats doing, not just performance boats), I'm not at all certain that the extra second you spoke of in an earlier post will be enough time for the average person to react, or for the boat to turn enough to miss you.

To be brutally honest, if said nincompoop runs you down, I fear that the difference between the results of a 90 mph collision and a 45 mph collision (or even a 25 mph collision) will not be terribly significant. Please, please don't count on the speed limit to assure your safety!

It seems to me that your situation is similar to that of a jogger running along the side of a road. The jogger has an unquestionable right to be there, and drivers have an absolute obligation to avoid hitting him or her. But, a smart jogger will wear high visibility clothing to help assure that drivers see them! (Heck, even 50+ years ago, my mother made me wear a light colored jacket at night!:D )

You shouldn't have to, just as the jogger shouldn't need to wear a reflective vest, but please consider someone's earlier suggestion that you mount a fiberglass whip and flag to your kayak! I'd really, really hate to read some day that you were run down!

Silver Duck

[Evenstar]

Silver Duck,

Thanks for your concern for my safety - I really do appreciate that. :)

I explained up a few posts why a flag/whip isn't really an option for my type of kayak. It's one of those suggestions that seems really practical until you actually try to put it into practice, and then it just doesn't work.
(I actually inquired about a flag at last April's Paddlesport Show at UNH, and found out why they aren't such a good idea.)

When a kayak is in choppy water the most visible parts are the body of the paddler, and the blades of the paddles - that's why I wear a red PFD and use paddles that have bright yellow/orange blades. I can easily spot another moving kayak a good mile away in most conditions - and it's almost always the blades of the paddles that I notice first. The worse thing that a kayaker can do is to just sit still in the water, hoping that an approaching powerboat sees them - moving makes you much more vissible.

I don't want to get run over at any speed, so I'm constantly on the lookout for approaching boats. I avoid the high traffic areas as much as possible, and I stay near the shore when visibility isn't good.

I'm for a speed limit because I know that speed limits actually do make boating safer, for several reasons.
1.) With all else being equal, a slower boat will see me much sooner than a faster moving boat.
2.) And, once I am seen, a slower moving boat will have more time to avoid me.
3.) If neither boat sees me - I still have a pretty good chance of getting out of the way of a slower moving boat.

[Gilligan]

On the topic of headway speed rule. I liked it because I only lost 2 feet of shoreline that year instead of four.
If you lose shoreline then the tax assessor will have less to tax you on. That could be a good thing. Less property means less property tax, right? :laugh:

[Misty Blue]

Hey Less...

I'v been a coastie since 1990 and I'm 5'3"!

How long can you tread water???

Misty Blue.

[Rayhunt]

Watching the gf-bl's fly by on the crowded choppy lake the driver's eyesight ahead is not all that clear. The water is choppy, the boat is going fast, it's bouncing around, it's up on plane, there'a a big long hull ahead between the water and the driver. So, how good can the driver's eye of the water-road ahead be? Not all that great!

Many gf-bl's have special padded seats in a padded seat well, where the seat bottom electrically hinges down as the boat speeds up so the driver and passenger is standing and can us their legs-knees as a shock absorber and be 3/4 surrounded by an all-padded seat well. What they do is to drive these high speed 32' - 8000lb-1150hp gf-bl's while personally positioned in the security of their own little well-padded cell. Add in all the sunshine, heat, humidity, noise, music, chit-chat, and _______ to the the choppy waves and speed and it's understandable why seeing a kayak is not so easy.
They are called bolster seats ..they dont go down as you speed up .. its an option to sit or stand :rolleye2:
Have you ever heard of glasses or goggles ?? My eyes start to water at 20 mph, bugs, sun, everyone should be wearing eye protection while driving a boat at anything greater than headway speed ..as it is on motorcycles in this state! We kayak along the shore and in coves usually well out of the reach of power boats. Kayaking in the middle of a channel is just plain stupid.
Nonetheless its like a slalom course out here with all the canoes and kayaks :rolleye2: :rolleye2: :rolleye2:

[Fat Jack]

Nice picture...I remember that day. We were out sailing. But then I heard a rumble from the west...I looked across the Broads and saw a Poker Race full of cigarette boats bearing down on us. We were lucky to get out alive. ;)

[Cal]

No problem jack. Don't sail boats have the right of way;)

[Evenstar]

...Kayaking in the middle of a channel is just plain stupid.
Nonetheless its like a slalom course out here with all the canoes and kayaks :rolleye2: :rolleye2: :rolleye2:
The original boats on Winni were the human powered kind. Our type of boat has been on this lake for hundreds of years. So where do you get the right to insult us? After all, we were on the lake first.
It's pretty arrogant to think that high speed powerboats belong on the main lake, while canoes and kayaks don’t have a right to be out on it.

To me, it’s not very smart to operate powerboats at high speed on a lake that is shared by so many slower moving boats.

Here’s some facts for you: In 2002 kayaks represented 52% of all boats sold nationally – with over 350,000 kayaks (compared with ~ 100,000 canoes). Plus sales have continued to increase since 2002. And sales of sea kayaks have increased faster than any other type of kayak. And guess where sea kayaks are used the most? … It’s on lakes, and especially on large lakes.

So, not only are we not going away, we are increasing in numbers.

[fatlazyless]

Kayaking is an excellent aerobic type of a workout. Very very different than the motorboat experience and much more affordable. No trailer, no motor, no sails, just a roof-top rack, a kayak, paddle, pfd, water, food, sunscreen, hat, camera, windbreaker, and a buddy kayaker.....and you are on the big lake! No boat registration needed! Plus, they are fun, and the long skinny ones can really go long distances. While the short fat kayaks are just good for local paddling or fishing, the long skinny ones turn up all over the lake, way out in the middle of open water areas.

Over on the GF-BL forums like Scream & Fly, and Offshore Only, kayaks are referred to as 'speed bumps.' .........very nice!

I believe that Winnipeaukee has a kayaker's trail that visit's the public access areas at Stonedam Island, Bear Island, and Sandy Island, and one other spot with a public access dock. For less than a thousand dollars, you are on the water with a real nice, quiet, and safe kayak. It's true that Kayaks have become much much more popular than canoes. Probably because they are much more stabil and easier to paddle.

Up until March 2005, Meredith had an excellent Kayak store, Parafunalia, which had all types of kayaks. They would keep what I call a herd of kayaks in the corner of Meredith Bay near the Rt 3-25-Inn at Bay Point intersection. There would be like 20 different kayaks all corralled into a big floating mass that was like a big kayak monster or something that would churn with the waves. Too bad, that business moved out and all that's left is a vacant store, now.

Anyway, kayaks have definately been happening big-time on Winnipesaukee!

[Woodsy]

FLL...

I am surprised at you! its ok to use a derogatory term like GFBL in your posts, but if someone calls a kayak a speed bump you take offense? Personally I find both designations rather humorous. The same way calling a pontoon boat a "toon" or "floating patio" of calling a bowrider a "family truckster".


Evenstar...

I don't think that anyone said you don't belong on the Lake. Although it could be interpreted that way. I think you have a much better chance of getting run over by a family bowrider or PWC. There are way more of them on the lake than hi-performance boats. Last year a guy in a bowrider hit a stationary pontoon boat. If he didn't see a pontoon boat, there was no way that guy would have seen a small kayak!

There is no need to pick on anyone for thier choice of boat. Kayaks & Canoes have as much right to Lake Winni as anyone else. I don't see kayaks & canoes getting run over by any type of boat on Lake Winnipesaukee. In fact all of the Coast Guard data points to kayakers & canoeists being a danger to themselves more than anything else.

I do think kayaks & canoes should be registered and thier operators required to wear a PFD. No exceptions.

Woodsy

[Cal]

In fact all of the Coast Guard data points to kayakers & canoeists being a danger to themselves more than anything else.

Now I believe that to be true! And most of that is their attitude or missinformation by salesperson "Bonehead" , Who will sell the a kayak that "can go anywhere" because it's a SEA KAYAK and designed for the ocean:rolleye1:
Face it , the truth of the matter is , it's still a tiny little human powered vessel. The only advantage is you can upright it if you do turn over , unlike a 12' rowboat.
ALL boats have their limitations and those who don't realize it , they will be read about in the newspapers sooner or later , unless the are very lucky.

[Evenstar]

Now I believe that to be true! And most of that is their attitude or missinformation by salesperson "Bonehead" , Who will sell the a kayak that "can go anywhere" because it's a SEA KAYAK and designed for the ocean:rolleye1:
Face it , the truth of the matter is , it's still a tiny little human powered vessel. The only advantage is you can upright it if you do turn over , unlike a 12' rowboat.
ALL boats have their limitations and those who don't realize it , they will be read about in the newspapers sooner or later , unless the are very lucky.
Why would you would make such an ignorant post? You obviously know next to nothing about sea kayaks.

The truth is:
1.) Sea kayaks are involved in the smallest percentage of all kayak accidents.
2.) A beginner would not even buy a sea kayak, and if they were talked into one, they would likely return it, thinking that there was something wrong with it, as they would likely tip over within minutes.
3.) Sea kayaks are expensive, high performance kayaks - made for experienced kayakers. They are narrow, fast, and are very easy to tip (we intentionally tip them to turn faster and to paddle in cross winds - this is called "putting them on edge" or just "edging".)
4.) Sea kayakers are the best educated of all boaters, have had more instruction (lessons, workshops, seminars, pool sessions) than any other type of recreational boater. So the majority of us do know what we are doing and we know the limitations of our boats better than almost any other class of boaters.
5.) Many of us are have been trained (or certified) in various rescue techniques. Most of us carry safey and self-rescue equipment with us, wear the proper clothing (including a PFD). Many of us know how to navigate (with charts and compass)
6.) And the advantages of a sea kayak on a large body of water goes so far beyond just being able to do a roll in one.

Next time please do a little research before you bash an entire class of boater.

[Woodsy]

Why would you would make such an ignorant post? You obviously know next to nothing about sea kayak.

The truth is:
1.) Sea kayaks are involved in the smallest percentage of all kayak accidents.
2.) A beginner would not even buy a sea kayak, and if they were talked into one, they would likely return it, thinking that there was something wrong with it, as they would likely tip over within minutes.
3.) Sea kayaks are expensive, high performance kayaks - made for experienced kayakers. They are narrow, fast, and are very easy to tip (we intentionally tip them to turn faster and to paddle in cross winds - this is called "putting them on edge" or just "edging".)
4.) Sea kayakers are the best educated of all boaters, have had more instruction (lessons, workshops, seminars, pool sessions) than any other type of recreational boater. So the majority of us do know what we are doing and we know the limitations of our boats better than almost any other class of boaters.
5.) The advantage of a sea kayak goes way beyond being able to do a roll in one.

Next time please do a little research before you bash an entire class of boater.

Evenstar...

That statement there is just as ignorant a statement as you claim Cal's statement to be. There is no for any bashing, by anyone. A persons choice in recreation is just that... thier choice.

Woodsy

[jrc]

... So the majority of us do know what we are doing and we know the limitations of our boats better than almost any other class of boaters...

You are extrapolating the skills and knowledge that you have to the rest of the kayakers. Yes, there are kayak enthusiasts that have all these skills but they are a tiny percentage of the overall users of kayaks. There are not 350,000 people in kayak school this year to fill those new kayaks.

Obviously, white-water river kayaking is a seperate topic. But most kayaks today are sold for occasional recreational use. Very few people are making 20 mile open water trips.

None of this means that you shouldn't be kayaking anywhere you want or that you have less rights than the rest of us. But the biggest danger to kayakers is overconfidence. People get in over there heads, end up in the water and die from hypothermia or drowning.

[Cal]

. But the biggest danger to kayakers is overconfidence. People get in over there heads, end up in the water and die from hypothermia or drowning.

My point exactly.
To every kayaker I know( and I realize I don't know them all) it is nothing more that a toy...a little boat to play in...splash around in the surf when you're not coordinated enough to stand on a surf board or take a 10 or 15 minute ride on the bay. In any case they stay near shore so if they do get in trouble , they don't have far to go.
I can't , for the life of me , see why someone would want to cross the broads in a kayak , no more than I would take my boat 40 miles out to sea. Yeah , I probably could and get away with it , but it's not worth the risk.
And the point remains , it's still a tiny little boat.

[Evenstar]

Evenstar...
That statement there is just as ignorant a statement as you claim Cal's statement to be. There is no for any bashing, by anyone. A persons choice in recreation is just that... thier choice.
Woodsy

"In fact all of the Coast Guard data points to kayakers & canoeists being a danger to themselves more than anything else."
"... most of that is their attitude or missinformation by salesperson "Bonehead" , Who will sell the a kayak that "can go anywhere" because it's a SEA KAYAK and designed for the ocean:rolleye1:
Face it , the truth of the matter is , it's still a tiny little human powered vessel. The only advantage is you can upright it if you do turn over , unlike a 12' rowboat."

Ok, fine ... but most of the above post looks a lot like bashing to me.:rolleye2:

[Evenstar]

You are extrapolating the skills and knowledge that you have to the rest of the kayakers. Yes, there are kayak enthusiasts that have all these skills but they are a tiny percentage of the overall users of kayaks. There are not 350,000 people in kayak school this year to fill those new kayaks.

Obviously, white-water river kayaking is a seperate topic. But most kayaks today are sold for occasional recreational use. Very few people are making 20 mile open water trips.

I'm not extrapolating anything - If you read my post again, you'll see that I'm ONLY referring to the skills of the average SEA KAYAKER. My post was not about the skills (or lack of skills) of a recreational kayaker. There's a huge difference between the two types of boats and of the two types of paddlers - which was the whole point of my post.

But the percentage of highly skilled kayakers is still much greater than you think. It's way more than "a tiny percentage".

I know plenty of sea kayakers who think nothing of paddling 20 miles in an afternoon - I can do that in about 4 hours (when the winds aren't too strong). I've done the entire length of Squam and back many times.

[Evenstar]

... To every kayaker I know( and I realize I don't know them all) it is nothing more that a toy...a little boat to play in...splash around in the surf when you're not coordinated enough to stand on a surf board or take a 10 or 15 minute ride on the bay. . . . I can't , for the life of me , see why someone would want to cross the broads in a kayak , no more than I would take my boat 40 miles out to sea. Yeah , I probably could and get away with it , but it's not worth the risk.
And the point remains , it's still a tiny little boat.

And I can't understand why anyone wants to go faster than 45 mph in a boat on a lake. :eek:

You obviously don't know any sea kayakers. No sea kayaker considers their expensive sea kayak to be a toy!

A sea kayak is made for large bodies of water, so crossing the broads in one is not really all that difficult or even a risk (if you know what you are doing - are with at least one other sea kayaker, and have the proper equipment - Oh ... and assuming that there are not a lot of high speed powerboats out there.)

Sea kayaks are not exactly tiny - mine is 16 feet long, which is short for a sea kayak (many are 18 to 24 feet long). Just to give you a better idea of what I'm talking about, here's a photo of a sea kayak (which is much like mine - only my kayak has a red deck). This one is happens to be on the ocean:

[ITD]

4.) Sea kayakers are the best educated of all boaters, have had more instruction (lessons, workshops, seminars, pool sessions) than any other type of recreational boater. So the majority of us do know what we are doing and we know the limitations of our boats better than almost any other class of boaters.




I'm not extrapolating anything - If you read my post again, you'll see that I'm ONLY referring to the skills of the average SEA KAYAKER. My post was not about the skills (or lack of skills) of a recreational kayaker. There's a huge difference between the two types of boats and of the two types of paddlers - which was the whole point of my post.

But the percentage of highly skilled kayakers is still much greater than you think. It's way more than "a tiny percentage".

I know plenty of sea kayakers who think nothing of paddling 20 miles in an afternoon - I can do that in about 4 hours (when the winds aren't too strong). I've done the entire length of Squam and back many times.


I'm fascinated by this, please refer me to the data or study which shows this.

[Cal]

Evenstar,
Excuse me if you thought I was trying to bash you , I certainly wasn't trying to. I would venture to say I am a bit older than you. I remember as a teenager , I knew everything and was all but immortal. It's taken me a lot of years to become as stupid and uninformed as I am. You to , will find this out as you get older and try to reason with someone of your age now.
And even though my boat's 29'2" and weighs a little over 7000 lbs , I still wouldn't go 40 miles out to sea , even though by your standard it would seem to be fine.
Enjoy the "yak";)

[Evenstar]

Evenstar,
Excuse me if you thought I was trying to bash you , I certainly wasn't trying to. I would venture to say I am a bit older than you. I remember as a teenager , I knew everything and was all but immortal. It's taken me a lot of years to become as stupid and uninformed as I am. You to , will find this out as you get older and try to reason with someone of your age now.
And even though my boat's 29'2" and weighs a little over 7000 lbs , I still wouldn't go 40 miles out to sea , even though by your standard it would seem to be fine.
Enjoy the "yak";)

Sorry, but it sure came across as bashing. Try to look at what you posted from my point of view.

Hey, I'm not a teenager! What makes you think you're older than me?

I never suggested that it was fine to take you boat 40 miles out to sea.

"My standard" is to have proper training (including self and tandom rescue techniques), carry the proper equipment, wear a PFD (and the proper clothing for conditions), and use a boat within the conditions that it was designed for.

As much as I've tried to explain all this (several times), you and some others on this forum still don't seem to understand this. Having a larger boat, and a motor doesn't necessarily mean that you are any more prepared or that your boat is any safer than mine (excluding of course, being involved in a collision with another boat).

[jrc]

I'm not extrapolating anything - If you read my post again, you'll see that I'm ONLY referring to the skills of the average SEA KAYAKER...

I guess the nuance of the term "sea kayaker" escaped me. What do you call the other people on those 350,000 kayaks that are not sea kayakers? I mean the ones using kayaks on the sea or other large body or water but without the all the super powers.

Since I lost track of what or why any of this matters to HB-162, this will be my last kayak post. You can have the last word. Although if I can find it, I will post a picture of me and my dad kayaking Winnipesaukee around 1988.

[Evenstar]

I guess the nuance of the term "sea kayaker" escaped me. What do you call the other people on those 350,000 kayaks that are not sea kayakers? I mean the ones using kayaks on the sea or other large body or water but without the all the super powers.

Since I lost track of what or why any of this matters to HB-162, this will be my last kayak post. You can have the last word. Although if I can find it, I will post a picture of me and my dad kayaking Winnipesaukee around 1988.

If you actually read my entire posts you would know. Other kayakers are "white water" or "recreational" kayakers. There are many different types of kayaks, just like there are different types of any other kind of boat. A sea kayaker is basically someone who paddles a sea kayak. This has nothing to do with "super powers" - it's about using a boat for what it is designed for. A recreational kayak just isn't designed for the same conditions as a sea kayak. And my sea kayak isn't designed for shallow white water runs.

All this is related to HB 162, simply because some people on the forum have lumped all kayaks and canoes into the same catagory - and stated that no kayaks belong on the main lake. Some have even suggested that we shouldn't be on Winni at all - but that we should stick to small ponds.

[Cal]

Having a larger boat, and a motor doesn't necessarily mean that you are any more prepared or that your boat is any safer than mine (excluding of course, being involved in a collision with another boat).



OK , that about says it all:)

[Evenstar]

I'm fascinated by this, please refer me to the data or study which shows this.

I actually got that information from a paddlesport symposium that I attended last spring. I don't have time right now to do anything more that a quick search. (And there's like a million kayak sites.) So all I can come up with at this moment is a 2001 survey done in Minnesota:

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/aboutdnr/reports/trails/kayaking_study_summary.pdf (http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/aboutdnr/reports/trails/kayaking_study_summary.pdf)
2001 Survey of Sea Kayak Owners in Minnesota: “Sea kayak owners are mostly middle-aged, in the 40 to 60 age range. Males account for three-fourths of owners, females one-fourth. The educational attainment of sea kayakers is quite high: 78 percent have completed college, which includes 38 percent who have completed a postgraduate degree. Another 6 percent have completed vocational or technical school. Nearly half of households (46%) are in middle income ranges of $30,000 to $80,000, while another 32 percent are over $100,000. Overall, the incomes are high, with a median in the $70,000 to $80,000 range, well above the Minnesota household median."

Another supporting point is that sea kayaks are by far the most expensive and the most difficult type of kayak to master (excluding extreme white water). There's just so much more to learn when you get into a sea kayak. These are high performance kayaks, which do require much more skill to operate (if you expect to be able to stay upright).

I've owned both types of kayaks - the difference in skill level needed is apparent as soon as you try to get into a sea kayak for the first time.

These are not beginner kayaks, so most people who own sea kayaks have been kayaking for quite a while, and they spend much more time on the water each season than the average recreational kayaker. All the people that I know of who own sea kayaks have had quite a bit of instruction on their use.

(I realize this information isn't great, but I will try to find more when I have more time. I just didn't want you to think that I was ignoring your request.)

[Skip]

...I actually got that information from a paddlesport symposium that I attended last spring. I don't have time right now to do anything more that a quick search. (And there's like a million kayak sites.) So all I can come up with at this moment is a 2001 survey done in Minnesota...

...I realize this information isn't great, but I will try to find more when I have more time. I just didn't want you to think that I was ignoring your request...

Any luck finding that data yet to substantiate your claims????

Skip

[Evenstar]

Any luck finding that data yet to substantiate your claims????
Skip
As I posted earlier, I was given this information by an instructor while I was at a paddling seminar. It's not something that I can just pull off the Internet, at least not as far as information that specifically gives the demographics of sea kayakers.

But just Google Sea Kayak Instruction and you'll get some idea of how extensive the skill training is for this sport. (I have posted a message on one of the largest paddling forums, so perhaps someone there can find a link that I can pass on.)

I did find a report that gives a great deal of statistics on canoe and kayak fatalities – the data does also backup what I posted as far as the experience and skill level of sea kayakers, the use of PFD by all types of kayakers, and it also states that sea kayaks are “very sea worthy.”

Taken from:
CRITICAL JUDGMENT II - Understanding and Preventing Canoe and Kayak Fatalities 1996-2002 by the American Canoe Association

“This report includes six years of accident data from the US Coast Guard (USCG) Boating Accident Report Database (BARD).” “From calendar year 1996 through 2002, 574 fatalities associated with canoes and kayaks were reported to the U.S. Coast Guard.” “Among the 558 paddling fatalities for which type of vessel is known, 72% were associated with canoes.” “The remainder 28% was associated with kayaks. Sea kayaks represented a very small proportion of fatalities (1% overall and 5% among kayaks).”

“Kayak Touring – This category of kayaking, sometimes referred to as sea kayaking, includes such diverse activities as day kayaking on a small lake, multi-day kayak excursions, and kayaking on the open ocean. Touring kayaks are typically long, sleek, have storage compartments, and are designed for speed and efficiency. These kayaks are often used for long expeditions and are very sea worthy.”

“The odds that individuals who were paddling kayaks when they died were wearing a properly worn PFD was over six times that of their counterparts in canoes.” 52% of the victims of kayak fatalities were wearing a PFD.

“One of the few published studies that looked at PFD use in a general population, Quan et al. (1998) found that in the state of Washington in 1995, kayakers had the highest rate of PFD use (78%).”

[Rayhunt]

Well its obvious you are an avid kayaker and realy love your kayak..
Let me ask you a few questions.
How much fuel do you put in her ?
Do you go through the wiers channel ?
Do you agree that gas powered boat are an the MAJORITY of vessels on the lake?
Do large wakes make your kayaking experience more or less enjoyable?
Do you have lights on your kayak for night excurrsions?
Do you have to register a kayak ?
Are you required to have a boater safety card to operate a kayak?
Have you ever been or know anyone who has been run over by a powerboat in a kayak ?

Thanks

[sum-r breeze]

Those are very good questions!

[fatlazyless]

Depending on the weather, water surface conditions and time of day, kayaks can and do blend into their watery surroundings and are difficult to see from a moving motorboat.
By some NH law, the motorboater is obligated to watch for the paddled kayak and give it the right of way. A motorboat traveling at 95mph is much much less likely to see a kayak than a motorboat going 5mph! End of argument, I rest my case!

[overlook]

[QUOTE=Evenstar][

Here are the facts:
1.) The faster you are going, the more distance you cover in the same time period.
2.) Under the same conditions, your reaction times remain exactly the same.
3.) So my chances of being hit by a powerboat increase proportionally as the speed of that boat increases.
4.) I am much more likely to be hit out on the main lake by a boat traveling at 90mph than I am by a boat going 45mpm.


3 and 4 are not facts.
Statistacaly there has not been a collision of two boats where one was traveling over 45mph in NH.
Any responsable boater should always be able to keep clear of all objects on the water, nobody should head directly into sun glare for any sustained period. Waves- come on, what duration of wave are you trying to say? Even in the ocean the time is minimal. If an operator is to were glasses driving a car the same should be for boating, MP could probably ticket them for driving to endanger.
You are more in danger from capt. bonehead than fast boats.

[Evenstar]

Well its obvious you are an avid kayaker and realy love your kayak..Let me ask you a few questions. Thanks
Ok, but I can see where you’re headed here. Some of your questions are very leading. I’ll play along this time, and will give you my honest answer to every single one - but be nice.
How much fuel do you put in her?
Since I’m the only “motor”, the fuel goes in me. She (me) can do about 20 miles on a peanut butter sandwich and an apple.
Do you go through the wiers channel?
No, I’ve only put in at Shep Brown's, and I try to avoid high traffic areas.
Do you agree that gas powered boat are an the MAJORITY of vessels on the lake?
Yes, that’s rather obvious.
Do large wakes make your kayaking experience more or less enjoyable?
… that all depends on the wakes. If there are a lot of boats in all direction making large wakes, you end up in conditions much like the natural occurring (from wind and current changes) “confused seas”. Those conditions are not fun, because the waves (or wakes) are coming at you from all directions at once. A single wake (or same direction wakes) can be fun to surf on.
Do you have lights on your kayak for night excurrsions?
I don’t kayak at night, so I’m not required to have navigational lights on my kayak. I do, however always carry a high intensity head lamp, but only for emergency – just in case I’m late in returning – for some unforeseeable reason. I’ve never every been out kayaking before or after daylight, so I’ve never even had to use it. I just like to be prepared.
Do you have to register a kayak ?
In NH? Only if your kayak has a (non-human) motor.
Are you required to have a boater safety card to operate a kayak?
If you are referring to a NH valid safe boating education certificate – No, since this is currently only required for persons operating a powerboat with a motor in excess of 25 HP – which would be way too big for any kayak. Although I have had paddling lessons, including white water lessons – which were give by a ACA/BCU certified instructor. And I have taking a boating navigation workshop, which was given at UNH by a certified sea kayak instructor.

I personally believe that all boater operators should be required to pass a boater safety course – although there should be different certification for different types of boats (Like power, paddle, and sail – at the minimum.)
Have you ever been or know anyone who has been run over by a powerboat in a kayak ?
Personally no, or I probably wouldn’t be here to answer these questions. But I have personally seen several pretty close calls. Last summer a powerboat – traveling at way more than headway speed went right between me and a couple in a tandem kayak. We (the two kayaks) were at most 100 feet apart. Yes, I know about the 150’ rule, but that powerboat operator never saw either one of us, until he was nearly between us (and it was a clear day – and we were in brightly colored kayaks – and were all wearing red or orange PFDs). He came very close to the tandem kayak. It he was going much faster, I’m almost certain that he would have hit one of us. The only reason that kayaks are not hit more often is that most are too afraid to go out on the main lake. Without a reasonable speed limit, it is just a matter of time, before someone’s going to be killed.

I was also kayaking on the Connecticut River last spring with a friend, when a high speed powerboat (going way over 45mph) came flying around a corner and barely avoided us – and we were not even near the middle of the river.

[Evenstar]

[quote=Evenstar][

Here are the facts:
1.) The faster you are going, the more distance you cover in the same time period.
2.) Under the same conditions, your reaction times remain exactly the same.
3.) So my chances of being hit by a powerboat increase proportionally as the speed of that boat increases.
4.) I am much more likely to be hit out on the main lake by a boat traveling at 90mph than I am by a boat going 45mpm.


3 and 4 are not facts.
Statistacaly there has not been a collision of two boats where one was traveling over 45mph in NH.
Any responsable boater should always be able to keep clear of all objects on the water, nobody should head directly into sun glare for any sustained period. Waves- come on, what duration of wave are you trying to say? Even in the ocean the time is minimal. If an operator is to were glasses driving a car the same should be for boating, MP could probably ticket them for driving to endanger.
You are more in danger from capt. bonehead than fast boats.

All my facts are indeed facts. Chances and occurrances are two very different things.

And I do know something about accident statistics - The chance of an accident happening, under any particular condition increases as the period of time between accident increases.

Plus speed increases the probability of any type of accident - as does the density of vehicles/vessels (or any other object) in the area.

Choppy waves and spray make any objects on the water (including kayaks) less vissible. That's also a FACT.

... and what about the capt. boneheads who like to go fast?

[Evenstar]

By some NH law, the motorboater is obligated to watch for the paddled kayak and give it the right of way. A motorboat traveling at 95mph is much much less likely to see a kayak than a motorboat going 5mph! End of argument, I rest my case!
I believe that the paddlers always have the right of way first.
Next are sailboat.
Last are powerboats.

I still always try to obey the navigation rules when any type of boat is approaching. But apparently not all boaters seem to know these rules very well. The only acception is that with sailboats, I try to make sure that I'm not in their direct path, and I try to remain where I'm always visible to the operator of the sailboat.