HUB status in Moultonborough

[phoenix]

I saw that a cost estimate for the HUB was on the agenda for the selectmen's meeting this past Thursday. Does anyone have any info?

[longislander]

It was actually a "The Hub" proponents request for funds from capital reserves to get a cost estimate for the plans; two contractors for a total of $23,050.

The Hub proponents realize a cost estimate needs to be done, now, for the bond etc. and the required 3/5ths vote at the 2023 May town meeting.

Some estimates thrown out there are $15-$20 millon, at today's prices, with a look to future price change.

[fatlazyless]

Here's their web site ..... https://thehubmoultonborough.com ..... and budda-bing-bang-boom ..... hut-hut-hut ..... :patriot::banana::patriot: ..... it includes "a 25-meter 5-lane pool for swimming lessons, water aerobics, and water polo" ..... plus a 40-foot therapy pool.

Also included is a Multipurpose Room with a basketball court layout, walking track, and accordion bleacher seating.

Well, well, well ..... the cold weather winter season happens every year on a regular schedule so these indoor exercise, basketball, pickleball, swim pool water sports facilities will be TOTALLY FANTASTIC.

This looks TOTALLY FANTASTIC and will be a very welcome addition for everyone in the area! ..... :patriot::banana::patriot:

[phoenix]

i hope they told them they will take under advisement for the next year

[phoenix]

FLL maybe you can move

[tummyman]

So now we get an estimate in a few months....or a guess.... about ESTIMATED costs for something that may be built in 2 years. No architectural drawings are available to develop better estimates. No business would ever go out to build something without solid plans and FIRM bids from qualified builders. We have an outside group (The Hub) who surveys folks and have determined a NEED from a portion of the residents. Anyone see the results of the needs review? Who is going to provide the ten year annual operating costs for this behemoth? Or is this another guess in the offing? The legislative body deserves more than estimates and a passive Board of Selectmen so far. The BOS needs a full out financial analysis of the total project costs, bonding fees, operating costs, etc .etc. prepared by qualified neutral parties...certainly not a town employee. It is time to shift the focus to creating a non-for-profit organization to build and operate this facility on town donated land and not strap the taxpayers with another burden. If the NEED is there, then certainly there is a NEED to have those folks build and operate it.

[winni83]

Tummy man is spot on. With all of the fund raising activities the Hub group is supposedly involved in why not use their own funds for the “cost estimates”? Just another example of their hands in the taxpayers’ pockets.

[John Mercier]

Probably looking at a design-build rather than a design-bid-build format.

[fatlazyless]

Is SO very easy to see the architectural drawings ....... go to www.moultonboroughnh.gov/major-projects and click on "The Hub - Community Activity & Aquatic Centre." ....... :patriot::banana::patriot:

[tummyman]

By architectural drawings, I meant the detailed building plans that builders need for all structural design elements including a full bill of materials, etc. All that is available are artist sketches, etc.

[fatlazyless]

Five different pages of architectural drawings .... :eek2: .... made by www.stewarchitects.com, Laconia NH is what's easy to see when you click on "The Hub-Community Activity & Aquatic Centre" at www.moultonboroughnh.gov/major-projects.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The vote for the $23,000 was 4-1, with Kevin Quinlan against it.
By the way, Karel Crawford, who voted for it, is running for State Representative. She will not be getting my vote.

[John Mercier]

By architectural drawings, I meant the detailed building plans that builders need for all structural design elements including a full bill of materials, etc. All that is available are artist sketches, etc.

Design-Build means that doesn't need to exist... just renderings.

Design-Bid-Build would need the plans to bid the job...

[longislander]

Design, build ...


https://www.symmetrybuilders.net/symmetry-builders-blog/2019/7/16/design-build-vs-design-bid-build-delivery-methods#:~:text=Overall%2C%20the%20primary%20diffe rence%20when,separate%20contracts%20to%20the%20dev eloper.

[longislander]

By the way, Karel Crawford, who voted for it, is running for State Representative. She will not be getting my vote.


https://granitegrok.com/blog/2022/08/rino-report-karel-crawford?utm_source=newsletter-108&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Grok

[fatlazyless]

https://granitegrok.com/blog/2022/08/rino-report-karel-crawford?utm_source=newsletter-108&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Grok

So, what the heck ... is GraniteGrok ... www.granitegrok.com/about ... with their motto ... "Dominating the Political Bandwidth in New Hampshire"... so what's this all about?

Definition ..... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominate ..... :patriot::banana::patriot: ...... "dominate"

[FlyingScot]

Even as a person who generally likes this sort of thing, it's hard for me to understand why a majority of year-rounders would want to pay for this. But I wonder how much of the cost will be borne by locals and how much from second homers. Does anyone know the percent of property value attributable to second homes? Second best number might be percent on the water?

Also--can Moultonborough get other towns or people, such as FLL, to bear a portion of the cost in exchange for membership?

[John Mercier]

They could. But I think if you have paying members that the insurance coverage has to be different.

[longislander]

"The Hub" proposal is for a town property, not a private club. Anyone paying taxes to Moultonborough will pay, resident or not, second home or not.

Presently, the tax rate is 6.98/1000. How much of that will change if "The Hub" with the bond is approved by 3/5ths vote at the 2023 town meeting?

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

[John Mercier]

"The Hub" proposal is for a town property, not a private club. Anyone paying taxes to Moultonborough will pay, resident or not, second home or not.

Presently, the tax rate is 6.98/1000. How much of that will change if "The Hub" with the bond is approved by 3/5ths vote at the 2023 town meeting?

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.
He asked about non-residents/non-taxpayers using the facility.

[phoenix]

since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want it

[thinkxingu]

since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want itFrom a (seasonal) outsider, it does seem very weird.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[John Mercier]

How close has the vote been?

[FlyingScot]

"The Hub" proposal is for a town property, not a private club. Anyone paying taxes to Moultonborough will pay, resident or not, second home or not.

Presently, the tax rate is 6.98/1000. How much of that will change if "The Hub" with the bond is approved by 3/5ths vote at the 2023 town meeting?

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

I agree that what you write is 100% true, but it is misleading. Waterfront homes, occupied mostly(?) by nonresidents pay the lion's share of property taxes. Let's call that amount 75%, just for fun. This enables the year rounders to build something for themselves while only paying 25% of the tab. In essence, they get a 75% discount on community centers, schools, and various other things of zero value to Summer people.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, or that the HUB should be built. Only pointing out the political/economic dynamic

[Sue Doe-Nym]

I believe that FS’s number is fairly close….at least that’s what it was about 10 years ago. It really boggles my mind that this HUB entourage is moving forward, full steam ahead, given the current state we’re in with inflation and other pressing issues. People are hurting…..and they are worried about putting gas in their cars/ trucks, food on the table and HEATING their homes this coming season! I am not whining on my own behalf, but I keep thinking of what the vast sums of money we are talking about could do to benefit our citizens who are in need….specifically, the retirees on fixed incomes, for example. I don’t know whether this whole situation makes me more sad or angry…probably both. This project is a terrible idea, particularly at this time.

[John Mercier]

SS adjusts to inflation.
One of the complaints the FED has on trying to get the inflation under control.

[longislander]

Even as a person who generally likes this sort of thing, it's hard for me to understand why a majority of year-rounders would want to pay for this. But I wonder how much of the cost will be borne by locals and how much from second homers. Does anyone know the percent of property value attributable to second homes? Second best number might be percent on the water?

Also--can Moultonborough get other towns or people, such as FLL, to bear a portion of the cost in exchange for membership?


He asked about non-residents/non-taxpayers using the facility.

Where do you see that?
The context was who pays for the build, not the use of the center. Maybe you want to debate his use of the word "cost".

Also, rentals etc. of the center I did address:
Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

If that is what you meant.

I agree that what you write is 100% true, but it is misleading.


Not if you understand taxation in Moultonboroiugh. Moultonborough has been a cash cow for many years. Thank you! to the MA, NY, Conn. and other non-resident Moultonborough taxpayers, including NH, for providing the funding.

It is understood that lakefront property in Moultonborough is the major contributor to the tax base.

[John Mercier]

''Also--can Moultonborough get other towns or people, such as FLL, to bear a portion of the cost in exchange for membership?''

I found it through careful reading.

The SPT is not transferred to Concord, but used as an offset to determine educational grants to each district.
https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2021-02-05/amid-school-funding-anxiety-some-n-h-communities-fear-return-of-donor-towns

[longislander]

The SPT is not transferred to Concord

What are you talking about? This ...?

You will be considered a United States resident for tax purposes...

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/substantial-presence-test

Where does being a US citizen come into "The Hub" posts?

How do you get "donor towns" from "The Hub" a private endeavor to create a town building, on present town property? This isn't part of the Claremont decisions and has nothing to do with education.

Your post:

https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2021-02-05/amid-school-funding-anxiety-some-n-h-communities-fear-return-of-donor-towns


There is no "membership" for "the Hub". It is proposed as a town property. There may be rentals for weddings etc. memberships to pickleball clubs, tennis clubs, etc that are supplemental to the build and maintenance (please don't go there).

You need to google some more.

[John Mercier]

Pointing out that you may soon be a real cash cow.

[fatlazyless]

''Also--can Moultonborough get other towns or people, such as FLL, to bear a portion of the cost in exchange for membership?''

Sure, they have a walk-in fee. For example anyone can go play pickleball in Laconia and it costs $3/two hours time ...... and buoy-O-buoy ..... is it ever busy, busy, busy .... so many people. What Laconia needs is a floating pickleball court in Weirs Beach on the dock spot that used to be home to The Dive for one summer.

How's about a county owned, floating community center, that travels all around Lake Winnipesaukee visiting different towns and is owned and operated by Belknap County ...... just like Gunstock Ski Area!

...... maybe a floating gambling casino operated by the Belknap Indigenous Lost Indian Tribe from high up yonder Alton Mountain ...... ugh! ....;)

[longislander]

Pointing out that you may soon be a real cash cow.

The town is already saying MOOO MOOO MOOO!

[longislander]

Sure, they have a walk-in fee. For example anyone can go play pickleball in Laconia and it costs $3/two hours time .

I (resident) went one time, years back to play pickleball on Moultonborough town courts ... run by the town rec. dept. ... with volunteer instructors ... $5 bucks!

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif3506/f/uploads/outdoor_pickleball_2022.pdf

[John Mercier]

I believe that Laconia already has the extra insurance...
As only a few recreational outlets are resident/taxpayer only.

[longislander]

"The Hub" will not be taxpayer/resident only. Nobody ever said it would be. The pitch will be made at some point that the center can charge for using the pool
or other amenities, non-residents included, and discount the residents or no charge to residents.

I have complete confidence that the town will have adequate insurance. Extra insurance is probably in the mind of the those unsure of adequate insurance.

[Descant]

The folks from MOOOOOultonborough need their own FB group where they could argue using real names. I nominate ThinkXingu as a non-resident shorefront resident to set it up. He is well known for FB Admin skills. Somehow, there is less animosity when you post under your real name.

[longislander]

They've already got more than their share of bloviaters and don't come to this forum because of the same repetitive posters.

[thinkxingu]

The folks from MOOOOOultonborough need their own FB group where they could argue using real names. I nominate ThinkXingu as a non-resident shorefront resident to set it up. He is well known for FB Admin skills. Somehow, there is less animosity when you post under your real name.Thanks for your vote of confidence, but as a seasonal property owner I'm totes fine with "legit" Moultonboroughians running the show!

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[ITD]

Thanks for your vote of confidence, but as a seasonal property owner I'm totes fine with "legit" Moultonboroughians running the show!

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

Hmm, I can read that two ways, Moultonborough-ians or Moultonbo- roughians. lol

I would love to see something like a YMCA come into town, isolated from politics. That would be the ideal situation IMO.

[FlyingScot]

I believe that FS’s number is fairly close….at least that’s what it was about 10 years ago. It really boggles my mind that this HUB entourage is moving forward, full steam ahead, given the current state we’re in with inflation and other pressing issues. People are hurting…..and they are worried about putting gas in their cars/ trucks, food on the table and HEATING their homes this coming season! I am not whining on my own behalf, but I keep thinking of what the vast sums of money we are talking about could do to benefit our citizens who are in need….specifically, the retirees on fixed incomes, for example. I don’t know whether this whole situation makes me more sad or angry…probably both. This project is a terrible idea, particularly at this time.

It's too easy for people who are comfortable (or VERY comfortable) to remember that many folks in our area are struggling. My posts should have noted that. I agree that it would not be right to do this in a way that hit people on fixed incomes

[thinkxingu]

Hmm, I can read that two ways, Moultonborough-ians or Moultonbo- roughians. lol

I would love to see something like a YMCA come into town, isolated from politics. That would be the ideal situation IMO.Bravo!

And totally agree on the Y!

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[tummyman]

The BOS has been basically absent for this entire HUB process. Sure, some folks have needs....but others do not. If the BOS wants to be serious, they will issue a survey to every single taxpayer with results analyzed by a professional firm and including many specifics. This is absolutely needs data from every single taxpaying person....residents and non-residents. And it needs to be done before Town Meeting. Questions should include usage potential, impact on tax rates and bills, etc. etc. etc. Let's do a professional survey designed by folks who have this as their business. Enough of all this so called needs stuff that is not in the public domain. As usual, this could be another potential whim that has not been thoroughly vetted by the people responsible for running the town (BOS) and may end up being underutilized. If other towns want in, then let them share in the capital costs as well...not just the operating costs. Here's an idea...M'boro donates the land under a 99 year zero cost lease to the HUB group and they sell shares of the building to the various towns who want to buy in and use it for their residents. We already see the library with folks from other towns wanting to use our local facility as it is far better than what their town wants or has already. I believe now they have to pay. Set up a Board of Directors, make in non-profit, and enjoy! Local M'boro version of "Pay to Play" !!! Simple..... Private / public partnership....not all funded by M'boro taxpayers.

And just wait for the courts and politicians to possibly reinstate donor towns or some other scheme to fund education.....as always it is just over the horizon and M'boro will get hit VERY HARD.

[John Mercier]

It's too easy for people who are comfortable (or VERY comfortable) to remember that many folks in our area are struggling. My posts should have noted that. I agree that it would not be right to do this in a way that hit people on fixed incomes

I think voters tend to take that all into consideration.
We have quite a few tax exemptions that can be modified for income and net assets to allow a considerable amount of protection.

I think your earlier understanding of voter psychology is what is occurring; and should the vote yield more than 50 percent, but not the 60 percent needed for the bond... I think they will keep trying.

It is the youngest residents that opponents would need to appeal to...

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The voters who want the HUB don’t give a darn about anybody or anything, just as long as they get what they want……it’s that simple. We have watched this for over a decade, and the only changes we note are their increased determination and attitude of entitlement. Their behavior is, in many cases, reprehensible.
P.S. I should not have put everyone in favor of the HUB in the obnoxious category. There are actually some reasonable people who support it.

[winni83]

Does anyone else find the use of the word “Centre” in Moultonborough Community, Activity & Aquatic Centre to be pretentious to an absurd degree?

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Yes…..perhaps it should be named Ye Olde Community Centre. ��
or, this might be better ….YOCC in Utopian Moultonborough Commons.
Or even Moultonborough Meadows….that has a nice ring…

[fatlazyless]

Does anyone else find the use of the word “Centre” in Moultonborough Community, Activity & Aquatic Centre to be pretentious to an absurd degree?

Oh come on ..... is like the difference between gray and gray ......oopsie-doopsie ...... I mean gray and grey ....... not gray and gray ..... but gray and grey ........ you understand ......... so what is the difference between centre and center .....? ....... and any-who ..... Moultonborough was established in 1777 .....https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Moultonborough,_New_Hampshire so CENTRE seem highly and totally appropriate because George Washington actually slept in that corner store that's home to the museum.

You know that centre according to simple ..... https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre .... English refers to "a sports centre is where people go to use sports facilities, such as indoor gymnasiums and indoor swimming pools and indoor therapy pool located at The Centre in Moultonborough, NH."

Is so simple, even a cave man can understand this. ...... ;)

[neckdweller]

I'm fine with the $23K spend which will get some true cost estimates put together.

Regardless of the cost to build, which is sure to be high, I'd love to see detailed estimates of what it costs to run/maintain the facility. I'm one of those 2nd home lake people up here and our primary home is in the seacoast area of NH. There are a couple of larger cities - Dover and Portsmouth, with indoor pools that could probably provide some idea of what those expenses are vs. the revenue they produce. I found a presentation here (https://www.dover.nh.gov/Assets/government/open-government/budget-revealed/FY2023-documents/04062022WK/FY2023_BUDGET_RECREATION_April%206,%202022.pdf) on the Dover pool showing indoor pool costs of $607K with revenue of $150K. Not exactly a breakeven proposition. Similarly, the Portsmouth budget presentation found here (https://files.cityofportsmouth.com/finance/fY23/FY23%20Budget%20Document.pdf) shows a cost to run it of $596K with revenue of $446K. Both of those pools get revenue from not only the patrons using the pools (which I'm pretty sure draw from a larger population area than Moultonborough) but also from local swim teams which as of now are pretty limited up here. (Side note as a swim parent - those swim team fees ain't cheap.) If you assume the Dover deficit is closer to what it would cost that's $450K added to your yearly town budget which is around $.10 or $.11 per thousand. That obviously doesn't account for whatever bond repayment you'd have to do on the $15M-$20M cost to build the center.

I guess this is a long way of saying it would be interesting to see two proposals, one with an aquatic aspect and one without both from a build and ongoing cost basis. While I'm not saying everyone would jump on board supporting a community center with some indoor courts I do think that would have more support given the likely much smaller costs involved. I could be wrong but the pool aspect of this has to drive a decent portion of the build cost.

[winni83]

FLL – I usually ignore your rants but this time I think you should go back and look into your cave for the dictionary. “Oh come on ..... is like the difference between gray and gray, centre and center ..... Moultonborough was established in 1777”

I will readily agree that there is no difference between “gray” and “gray” since they have the SAME spelling. Could it possibly be that you mean one of those words to be “grey”?

If so, then in your research you must have seen statements that both “Centre” and “grey” are British English spellings of the words “Center” and “gray”, although I do think that grey is far less pretentious than “Centre”.
It is the use of the British English word that I find to be so pretentious.
Oh and by the way, you should not have put the reference to Simple Wiki in quotes since you fabricated the quote.

If this pretentious boondoggle were ever to be built in Moultonborough I would be advocating for something like an FLL Tax – a large per user per hour fee for non-residents, especially those from Meredith, to be credited directly to the tax bills of property owners in Moultonborough. :)

[ishoot308]

I'm fine with the $23K spend which will get some true cost estimates put together.

Regardless of the cost to build, which is sure to be high, I'd love to see detailed estimates of what it costs to run/maintain the facility. I'm one of those 2nd home lake people up here and our primary home is in the seacoast area of NH. There are a couple of larger cities - Dover and Portsmouth, with indoor pools that could probably provide some idea of what those expenses are vs. the revenue they produce. I found a presentation here (https://www.dover.nh.gov/Assets/government/open-government/budget-revealed/FY2023-documents/04062022WK/FY2023_BUDGET_RECREATION_April%206,%202022.pdf) on the Dover pool showing indoor pool costs of $607K with revenue of $150K. Not exactly a breakeven proposition. Similarly, the Portsmouth budget presentation found here (https://files.cityofportsmouth.com/finance/fY23/FY23%20Budget%20Document.pdf) shows a cost to run it of $596K with revenue of $446K. Both of those pools get revenue from not only the patrons using the pools (which I'm pretty sure draw from a larger population area than Moultonborough) but also from local swim teams which as of now are pretty limited up here. (Side note as a swim parent - those swim team fees ain't cheap.) If you assume the Dover deficit is closer to what it would cost that's $450K added to your yearly town budget which is around $.10 or $.11 per thousand. That obviously doesn't account for whatever bond repayment you'd have to do on the $15M-$20M cost to build the center.

I guess this is a long way of saying it would be interesting to see two proposals, one with an aquatic aspect and one without both from a build and ongoing cost basis. While I'm not saying everyone would jump on board supporting a community center with some indoor courts I do think that would have more support given the likely much smaller costs involved. I could be wrong but the pool aspect of this has to drive a decent portion of the build cost.

I have no dog in this fight but am just curious as to why a town located on the shores of the largest freshwater lake in NH and already has a beautiful town beach, needs a swimming pool??

Dan

[neckdweller]

I have no dog in this fight but am just curious as to why a town located on the shores of the largest freshwater lake in NH and already has a beautiful town beach, needs a swimming pool??

Dan

I would imagine the argument is that the lake is truly good for swimming 1/3 of the year. I can understand that one more than my next door neighbor who is here only in the Summer but has an inground pool. :confused:

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The proposal will be for TWO pools, not one……and any comparison between Moultonborough and Portsmouth is ludicrous….our population simply doesn’t support such an endeavor.

[neckdweller]

The proposal will be for TWO pools, not one……and any comparison between Moultonborough and Portsmouth is ludicrous….our population simply doesn’t support such an endeavor.

I'm well aware of the differences between those two locations. The Moultonborough population doesn't exactly support the Taj Mahal Fire/Police building and various apparatus housed there but that didn't stop them.

Dover has a 6 lane 25 yard pool coupled with a secondary pool/dive well so roughly the equivalent to the hub proposal when you talk about cost to heat/maintain. I think $600K operating costs is a decent starting point for an estimate. I have no idea what they'd have to do for fees to make a dent in that cost nor do I have any idea what the membership numbers would look like. Portsmouth is $25/month resident adult, $45/month non-resident. Dover does a $170/year resident adult, $330/year non-resident.

[Descant]

There are several schools/colleges with pools and grand athletic facilities that can be used for cost comparisons, both building and operating costs. Paying $23K for somebody to develop similar figures is a waste of (taxpayer) $$.
If Moultonborough was founded in 1777, then the 250th Anniversary plans should be getting underway soon. Most towns have a small operating surplus at the end of the year, and Town Meeting votes as to what to do with that $$. Usually, the vote is to reduce taxes, but you could also vote to establish a capital reserve fund to build a recreation facility.
Of course, if such a facility were reasonably financially viable, many towns would have one, not just colleges and prep schools. (Watch and see what the colleges build when students start getting $10,000 loan forgiveness and tuition skyrockets.)

[Sue Doe-Nym]

I tried to respond to neckdweller awhile ago, but got knocked offline….maybe there’s a message there! Anyhow, those pushing the HUB have no interest in worrying themselves about maintenance costs. Nor are they worrying about user fees, memberships, and all that mundane stuff that should be part of the plan. I guess that’s one of the requirements for membership in the “Entitlement Club”….having the taxpayers willingly open their wallets for everything…..sort of an offshoot of college loan forgiveness. Anyhow, my mind travels to a future decade, and I look askance at the piles of timber, broken bricks, and other debris where the Community Centre of Moultonborough used to stand, a place we just had to have, but once the magic and glitter wore off and people got bored, it began a journey into obsolescence. Does that sound overly dramatic? Perhaps, but I can visualize something similar happening…..and the costs will continue. The loan must be paid.

[John Mercier]

There are several schools/colleges with pools and grand athletic facilities that can be used for cost comparisons, both building and operating costs. Paying $23K for somebody to develop similar figures is a waste of (taxpayer) $$.
If Moultonborough was founded in 1777, then the 250th Anniversary plans should be getting underway soon. Most towns have a small operating surplus at the end of the year, and Town Meeting votes as to what to do with that $$. Usually, the vote is to reduce taxes, but you could also vote to establish a capital reserve fund to build a recreation facility.
Of course, if such a facility were reasonably financially viable, many towns would have one, not just colleges and prep schools. (Watch and see what the colleges build when students start getting $10,000 loan forgiveness and tuition skyrockets.)I believe that the $23k is coming from the established capital reserve fund.

[ITD]

I believe that the $23k is coming from the established capital reserve fund.

Aren't those funds used to keep bond prices down?

[John Mercier]

Not really.

Think of it like setting a little aside every year to purchase a new vehicle instead of waiting till you need one and then financing the whole thing.

With the CRF you are paying ahead and earning interest (but usually losing to inflation), with a bond you are borrowing then repaying with devalued dollars.

Usually enough CRF gets used with the bonding to make the payment seem much lower.

Just various groups have realized that the CRF is a lower voting threshold than the bonding; so it has become much more popular.

[phoenix]

interesting you never see an advocate of the HUB post . I guess best to stay out of the limelight

[John Mercier]

interesting you never see an advocate of the HUB post . I guess best to stay out of the limelight

I think the last vote had less than 100 in support.... so they may not even have someone on the forum.

[tis]

It must be true. You just read it on the internet.


:laugh::laugh:And especially if our local jokester writes it!!

[phoenix]

John I would be shocked if they didn't monitor this site

[John Mercier]

John I would be shocked if they didn't monitor this site
They might... but would it add value to their strategy?

I would guess few of the people on the forum are residents of Moultonborough, and even fewer are young enough to be in it for the long haul.

They have to convince that younger group that this type of recreation has merit.

That may be harder than they think, but it is the only strategy they have.
This forum probably doesn't have a strong target audience when that subset is the focus.

[loonguy]

A quick search of the Forum members identified 99 who said they were from Moultonborough or included Moultonborough in their member name. That is certainly a small percentage of the total Forum membership, but I suspect it includes some on both sides of the issue. 99 is also a very small percentage of the residents of Moultonborough, so the issue might still find majority support in Moultonborough at some point.

[thinkxingu]

A quick search of the Forum members identified 99 who said they were from Moultonborough or included Moultonborough in their member name. That is certainly a small percentage of the total Forum membership, but I suspect it includes some on both sides of the issue. 99 is also a very small percentage of the residents of Moultonborough, so the issue might still find majority support in Moultonborough at some point.Yeah, but how many—like me—don't have locations filled out? I think there's quite a few Moultonborough peeps here.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[John Mercier]

Residents that are Millennials.

You can move Boomers with senior tax exemption changes written into the article tied to the HUB, but that creates a problem for the younger voters. GenX... we don't have the numbers worth targeting. So Millennial residents need to be convinced of the value... not always an easy thing.

[ApS]

:offtopic:

You know, the more I think about it, my suggestion for a 200-yard open water swim test in order to qualify for a NH motorboat license is making SO much sense.

Probably 66.6% of all the NH motor-boaters are very lousy swimmers who can just barely swim 25-yards on a good day, so this new requirement could encourage them to learn better swimming skills.

Hey there Mr Motor-Boater out there reading this, so how bad is your swimming skill ...... and you know the honest answer is 'not very good!'

Even the Marine Patrol officers only need to swim 50-yards as an MP job entry requirement, and 50-yards in a swim pool is like nothing because you can push off the pool walls at the end of the pool for a good length of that 50-yards so it's really a 25-yard swim test.

Nobody swims very much on Lake Winnipesaukee anymore, everyone uses a motor and gets FAT, and that's all there is to this!

With this new 200-yard motorboat swim requirement, an indoor swim pool funded by the Moultonborough tax payers will fast become a VERY happening place. Almost no one goes swimming anymore by swimming the crawl, breast stroke or side stroke. Is very rare to actually see anyone swimming. 50 to 60 years ago, people would swim at the beach by doing laps along the outer most rope line. If someone did that today the lifeguard would whistle them in except there's NO lifeguard on duty anymore to whistle them in, plus no one do's it, anyway.

So, how did the lakes region become a non-swimming region despite the presence of a big lake? ..... :eek:
For the same reason that sailing, canoeing, and rowing have lost their respective lusters.

We're getting beat up.

[tis]

Residents that are Millennials.

You can move Boomers with senior tax exemption changes written into the article tied to the HUB, but that creates a problem for the younger voters. GenX... we don't have the numbers worth targeting. So Millennial residents need to be convinced of the value... not always an easy thing.

Maybe we need to start letting the people that want all these goodies pay for them!!

[loonguy]

Yeah, but how many—like me—don't have locations filled out? I think there's quite a few Moultonborough peeps here.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

I do not dispute this point, but my perspective is that although the people commenting on the issue on the Forum are mostly negative, there are many more out there who are entitled to vote and might vote for it at some point even though they have not expressed support on the Forum. Negative comments on the Forum do not, and should not, preclude supporters from pursuing what they view as a worthwhile project for Moultonborough and campaigning for it in whatever manner they deem appropriate.

[John Mercier]

Maybe we need to start letting the people that want all these goodies pay for them!!

Define ''goodie''.
Recreation is always an extra... and mostly collectivized.

Lake Winnipesaukee is owned by all the residents of NH, but Moultonborough residents benefit from it more than say Franklin residents... how would we make that fair to Franklin residents?

Imagine that the lakes went non-motorized, or worse, what effect would that have on Moultonborough?

Life is never ''fair''.

[tis]

Define ''goodie''.
Recreation is always an extra... and mostly collectivized.

Lake Winnipesaukee is owned by all the residents of NH, but Moultonborough residents benefit from it more than say Franklin residents... how would we make that fair to Franklin residents?

Imagine that the lakes went non-motorized, or worse, what effect would that have on Moultonborough?

Life is never ''fair''.

But people on the lake certainly pay more taxes than most of those in Franklin! We choose to live on the lake and know we will pay more taxes. If you vote for the wants of a town, not needs, maybe those who vote for them should pay more. Seems fair to me.

[thinkxingu]

But people on the lake certainly pay more taxes than most of those in Franklin! We choose to live on the lake and know we will pay more taxes. If you vote for the wants of a town, not needs, maybe those who vote for them should pay more. Seems fair to me.Way too slippery a slope there, tis—by that same rationale, people without kids in the schools shouldn't have to pay taxes for schools.

While I agree there's a line between "necessary" services like water, safety, and education and "goodies" like recreation centers, that line is supposed to be defined (by an honest process) by the citizens in the town.

I don't think there's any question that the HUB would be cool to have in town; the question is whether the process is honest, and if it's fair to taxpayers/worth the overall cost to the overall constituency.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[tis]

Way too slippery a slope there, tis—by that same rationale, people without kids in the schools shouldn't have to pay taxes for schools.

While I agree there's a line between "necessary" services like water, safety, and education and "goodies" like recreation centers, that line is supposed to be defined (by an honest process) by the citizens in the town.

I don't think there's any question that the HUB would be cool to have in town; the question is whether the process is honest, and if it's fair to taxpayers/worth the overall cost to the overall constituency.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

I think they should help me out with my taxes on my lakefront property? Why should I pay so much? (tongue in cheek of course)

[ITD]

Imagine that the lakes went non-motorized, or worse, what effect would that have on Moultonborough?

Life is never ''fair''.

Clear water year round?

[John Mercier]

But people on the lake certainly pay more taxes than most of those in Franklin! We choose to live on the lake and know we will pay more taxes. If you vote for the wants of a town, not needs, maybe those who vote for them should pay more. Seems fair to me.

But the property owners/residents of Franklin that also own the lake do not make out the way that Moultonborough residents do... you don't transfer those taxes to Franklin.

But using the lake is using their property.

[tis]

But the property owners/residents of Franklin that also own the lake do not make out the way that Moultonborough residents do... you don't transfer those taxes to Franklin.

But using the lake is using their property.

The”donor” towns pay a lot to Franklin for schools since you’re using Franklin.

[John Mercier]

There is no such thing currently as a donor town.
There is a group looking to recreate the donor towns.

https://newhampshirebulletin.com/2021/06/23/donor-towns-tax-cuts-and-the-elusive-education-funding-solution/

[tis]

Technically no, but we the richer towns still pay a lot more toward state education than the poorer towns. That's why I put the word donor in quotes.

[John Mercier]

Doesn't work that way.

The money raised by the SWEPT is kept in Moultonborough and used to offset what would be listed as the local school tax rate.

None if it ever goes to the State... it all stays local.

[longislander]

https://www.nhbr.com/new-school-funding-funding-lawsuit-focuses-on-property-tax-inequality/


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif3506/f/uploads/2021_tax_rate_history_0.pdf


https://indepthnh.org/2022/06/28/new-challenge-filed-to-state-education-funding-system/


https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/news/state/2022/07/15/new-nh-education-funding-lawsuits-focus-inequality-property-taxes/10059076002/

[tis]

Doesn't work that way.

The money raised by the SWEPT is kept in Moultonborough and used to offset what would be listed as the local school tax rate.

None if it ever goes to the State... it all stays local.

Sorry, you are wrong. We pay a local school tax and a state school tax.

[John Mercier]

And the receipts from both go right into the Moultonborough school system.
None of it is transferred to another municipality or school district.

It has not been transferred since 2011.

If we change back, then the SWEPT would be collected and redistributed... and since it would not all go back into the Moultonborough system... the local school taxes to be raised would need to make up for the difference.

The State figures the districts educational grant, minuses the SWEPT, and then should the district still need more, provides that money with the Lottery revenue (much like the Augenblick Formula) and covers the difference using unallocated funds... since the money from tobacco is drying/dried up... that is largely business taxes.

So if a district raises more than the total of its grant... it doesn't get any extra funding... but it doesn't send any money anywhere else. It is all used to offset the local school tax portion.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

This thread started as a commentary on the HUB. We are not now a donor town, but the threat is always there because we are known as a tax rich town. We spend in excess of $30k each year for each child attending our schools. What this has to do with the HUB is probably this: when is enough enough?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[loonguy]

I have never viewed Moultonborough as a tax rich town. Rather it is a low tax rate town, which is one of many reasons why I choose to live here, and likely would continue to be a low tax rate town even with the addition of the HUB.

[tis]

It's complicated because it doesn't actually go to the state but it raises more school money and in the richer towns cuts the amount the state gives them. It is still a mandatory STATE tax.

[John Mercier]

All State taxes are mandatory.
But since there is no ''donation'', it isn't a donor town to Franklin.

And since the Education Trust Fund grant money that does go to the other districts comes from mostly business taxes... that also would not be a significant factor in Moultonborough.

Moultonborough went from a farming community to a bedroom community, and it did so in about on half century.

But what does the next half century look like? That is the question that town voters will need to answer.
They may not get it right, but it almost certainly will not be what it is today.

Franklin was a huge mill town (city)... and it was doubtful that the voters at that time realized that the mills would not be there in the future. So it has suffered while it looks to rebuild on a different path.

What will Moultonborough be a half century from now? Right now, they are riding the Boomer Wave.

[tis]

Here’s what you need to know:

SWEPT is part of a home or business property tax bill, which means it is remitted to the home or business owner’s town or city. The town or city does not give SWEPT money to the state, despite being called a “state tax.”
Since it is a “state tax,” it appears on the state budget as a part of the education trust fund. In practice and for accounting purposes, SWEPT money is counted as state funds. In reality, these funds are all locally raised dollars.
State law has required NH property owners to raise $363 million per year in SWEPT funds since 2005.
Whatever a town raises in SWEPT, is deducted from what the state would pay the town in adequate education grants and stabilization grants for their schools.
Most communities have additional local education taxes, since SWEPT funding and state funding (including adequate education grants and stabilization grants) do not cover the total cost for their local schools.
There is a legislative proposal this year to eliminate SWEPT all together.

[John Mercier]

I don't see a LSR for that...
Where did you find it?

Removal of SWEPT would require the State to raise an addition $363 million dollars through another format.

Which format are they proposing to do that through?

[tis]

https://reachinghighernh.org/2019/02/01/state-education-property-tax-locally-raised-locally-kept/

[John Mercier]

That was a 2019 legislative proposal...

It was voted down as the money would need to come from another tax source.
It is unlikely to be brought up, as we are attempting to lower taxation in other areas.

[FlyingScot]

I have never viewed Moultonborough as a tax rich town. Rather it is a low tax rate town, which is one of many reasons why I choose to live here, and likely would continue to be a low tax rate town even with the addition of the HUB.

Moving back on topic--this is a fundamental point--Moultonborough has had very low tax rates for a long time. We can debate whether that's good or bad, or whether HUB is good or bad. But there's no question that HUB runs against the traditional approach/values of the town, an approach that current homeowners had in mind when they moved in.

As you might have sensed from some of my other posts (haha), I like change, progress, etc. But this kind of thing always rubs me the wrong way. I don't like it when people move to woodsy areas and cut down trees, or put in strip malls and shopping centers, or crank up the tax base on folks who just want to be left alone.

[tis]

That was a 2019 legislative proposal...

It was voted down as the money would need to come from another tax source.
It is unlikely to be brought up, as we are attempting to lower taxation in other areas.

You just asked me where i got the info about where the money goes and so I sent you the link.

If you look at your tax bill you will see you are charged for:

Town Tax
County Tax
Local School Tax
State School Tax

That is all I am saying. I do not like to argue.

[tis]

I have never viewed Moultonborough as a tax rich town. Rather it is a low tax rate town, which is one of many reasons why I choose to live here, and likely would continue to be a low tax rate town even with the addition of the HUB.

You might not have viewed it as a tax rich town but the state considered it to be one when we had the donor town taxes. Yes the tax rate is low, but the value of the town is high, thus a donor town. Little towns like Freedom which doesn't even have a school was a donor town and was contributing to town likes Manchester (not a donor town). Moultonboro, Tuftonboro, Wolfeboro, Alton---most if not all towns around the lake were donor towns. I can't remember if Laconia was or not.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

I have never viewed Moultonborough as a tax rich town. Rather it is a low tax rate town, which is one of many reasons why I choose to live here, and likely would continue to be a low tax rate town even with the addition of the HUB.

If the HUB becomes a reality…UGH…. I don’t know how you can think that Moultonborough would remain a low tax town, given $20 million +/- for construction, plus annual maintenance costs, which will not be inexpensive.
My guess is the proponents of this will not want to charge for usage, but will want everything to be borne by the taxpayers.

[John Mercier]

You just asked me where i got the info about where the money goes and so I sent you the link.

If you look at your tax bill you will see you are charged for:

Town Tax
County Tax
Local School Tax
State School Tax

That is all I am saying. I do not like to argue.
No. I understand how the funding works.
I was asking about the legislative proposal ''this year'' to remove SWEPT altogether.
I could not find the LSR, so I asked for the link.

[John Mercier]

If the HUB becomes a reality…UGH…. I don’t know how you can think that Moultonborough would remain a low tax town, given $20 million +/- for construction, plus annual maintenance costs, which will not be inexpensive.
My guess is the proponents of this will not want to charge for usage, but will want everything to be borne by the taxpayers.

Based on bonding, probably increase the tax rate by 50 cents to $1...
that would still place Moultonborough in the bottom half of tax rates for the State.

I think the average tax rate is somewhere around $20/$21.

Not suggesting that the HUB is a reasonable expenditure; just that the low tax rate would still be a valid statement.

[thinkxingu]

Based on bonding, probably increase the tax rate by 50 cents to $1...
that would still place Moultonborough in the bottom half of tax rates for the State.

I think the average tax rate is somewhere around $20/$21.

Not suggesting that the HUB is a reasonable expenditure; just that the low tax rate would still be a valid statement.$1 isn't a huge sum, of course, but it would be something like a 14% increase on its own.

My biggest concern is that I just don't see it being useful to enough people. There are only two or three very small gyms in the area and what courts we have nearby are never busy.

I just don't see a need for meeting space and pools in such a small, seasonal town.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[tis]

$1 isn't a huge sum, of course, but it would be something like a 14% increase on its own.

My biggest concern is that I just don't see it being useful to enough people. There are only two or three very small gyms in the area and what courts we have nearby are never busy.

I just don't see a need for meeting space and pools in such a small, seasonal town.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

And when these towns want to push the passage of something, they always say it will only cost .05 a thousand or .10 a thousand. But you take 400 thousand or for lake front a million and add a lot of other pet projects that only add a nickel or a dime or a dollar per thousand and it adds up.

[longislander]

NH tax rates
See "total rate".

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/municipal/documents/21-tax-rates.pdf

[phoenix]

And remember the operating costs will add forever

[Sue Doe-Nym]

In a perfect world, this HUB mania would disappear. Since that’s unlikely, I wish some group with significant financial backing would undertake this project, raising funds by selling interest in the project, and making it a for- profit project, something that many citizens from surrounding towns could use, and everyone would be happy campers, especially the taxpayers not being stiffed with the entire bill.

[phoenix]

I think the town is too small to do that also. It won't be used enough to keep dues down to make it affordable that's why they want taxpayers to foot the entire bill . Let's hope the town will continue to vote this down

[John Mercier]

And when these towns want to push the passage of something, they always say it will only cost .05 a thousand or .10 a thousand. But you take 400 thousand or for lake front a million and add a lot of other pet projects that only add a nickel or a dime or a dollar per thousand and it adds up.

To FS's point, how many of the voting residents have million dollar lake homes?

The appeal from either side needs to be toward the voting center. They will be the ones that actually make such a decision.
In any of the voting districts, those are the people that actually set the policy and spending for the future.

So the $400K home owner that votes, may not want to spend $200 to $400 per year for something they feel they will never use.

Its all about appealing to the voters.

[ITD]

The problem with stuff like this is once that door is opened the flood gates are loosed. Give them an inch....

[John Mercier]

These things are inevitable as you move to a bedroom community.

[Descant]

Posted earlier in this thread was that the NH average cost per public school student is $18000 and that Moultonborough spends $30,000. If those numbers are correct, then Moultonborough voters are not at all afraid of being big spenders. You just have to whine a little and say "It's for the children" and you get your votes.

[tummyman]

New preliminary tax assessments are just out in Moultonborough. From a sampling, looks like lakefront land increased 30.74%. With such large waterfront land changes, the burden for paying off the bonding on a project like the HUB further shifts onto the backs of those who do not vote ! All you need to do is "want" something and then get enough folks to support it on the basis that those who do not want or need it have to pay without any voice. When will logic and reason rule ???

[thinkxingu]

New preliminary tax assessments are just out in Moultonborough. From a sampling, looks like lakefront land increased 30.74%. With such large waterfront land changes, the burden for paying off the bonding on a project like the HUB further shifts onto the backs of those who do not vote ! All you need to do is "want" something and then get enough folks to support it on the basis that those who do not want or need it have to pay without any voice. When will logic and reason rule ???When you say 30%, do you mean $.20 up from the $7 it currently is or 30% increase to assessed values?

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[tummyman]

Waterfront land portion of assessed valuations appears up 30.74% vs last years assessed waterfront land values that are part of the total property assessed values. The tax mil rate per $1000 of valuation will be determined later in the year for the December billing.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Our assessment is up 26%. Land assessment increased 31%.

[John Mercier]

So what was the average increase?
Then you can tell if more shifted toward or away from you.

[ITD]

So what was the average increase?
Then you can tell if more shifted toward or away from you.

This. Be curious to see.

[phoenix]

My assessment land up 30.7% and building up 16% ( have no idea why )

[tis]

I think all the newly assessed towns went up quite a bit due to the market being so expensive. When the new assessments came out in Tuftonboro, everybody was pretty worried because they went up by these kind of amounts both on the lake and off. Everybody is just hoping the rate is much lower- with such high assessments it certainly should be-at least this year. Next year if a lot more projects get approved by voters, and therefore spending goes up, who knows what will happen to our taxes.

[phoenix]

Not a lot of waterfront houses were on the market last year. At one point in sept there was one. Few waterfront houses raised the price but if sample is small is it valid . It doesn't look like they at all tyried to judge views etc since it seems the rising tide lifted all boats

[John Mercier]

You could argue validity of the assessment.
There is a process.

[tis]

Not a lot of waterfront houses were on the market last year. At one point in sept there was one. Few waterfront houses raised the price but if sample is small is it valid . It doesn't look like they at all tyried to judge views etc since it seems the rising tide lifted all boats

That's true. Very few for sale signs on the lake!!

[longislander]

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/assessor/pages/valuation-update-information

[ACME on the Broads]

*Moultonborough residents (year round / seasonal) take a look at the new "proposed" property assessments for 2023....the increases are staggering. We own a modest lake access home and our appraisal increased 26%! Nothing done in the way of improvements in the last 2 years....insanity! Perhaps the assessors are preparing for the inevitable housing bust?

No Lifeguards at our public beaches
No Swimming rafts
The Hub ?

Timing is everything.

[lakesregionguy]

perhaps at some point there will be a "need" for an indoor 18 hole golf course

[phoenix]

From the minutes of the last selectman's meetings there was a discussion about using excess assessments to reduce the tax rate (had a large increase in assessed values) . Two wanted to leave the excess in additional reserve. The vote was 3-2 to reduce the tax rate. I wonder if the other two wanted to
increase in the reserve account for HUB. I am sure someone who was there might know.

[tis]

perhaps at some point there will be a "need" for an indoor 18 hole golf course

:rolleye2: No kidding.

[longislander]

The Nov.3, 2022 discussion on the Unassigned Funds from 2022 was an attempt by two board members to "review and refill" the Capital Reserves accounts. The Capital Improvements Program Committee reviews every year, anyway. $1.9 million is the number that was discussed for this year's surplus.

I wonder if the other two wanted to
increase in the reserve account for HUB.



More than likely.

CR148, the Community Center capital reserve account is the only one draining/drained. The Hub group talked the select board to appropriate $23,000 a while back, from this account, to pay some contractors to find out how much the cost will be for The Hub. The last town annual report shows a balance of a little over $27,000. Almost gone. A citizen at the meeting mentioned (tongue-in-cheek) they might as well use the remaining $4,000 or so to get a study on the annaul cost of maintaining the pool.

The last annual report shows a balance a total of capital reserves of $5.3 million or so with about 29 accounts or so.

Yes ... after a year, use taxpayer money to find out how much it will cost to build The Hub. Presumption is in anticipation of the May town meeting petition for the Hub and bond.

The last select board meeting of 11/17/2022 was supposed to annouce the new tax rate. A NH DRA issue temporarily prevented this from happening but should come out soon. With the 3 out of 5 select board vote to reduce the tax rate rather than take the tax money and fill some capital reserves should bring the the tax from the present 6.98/1000 to 5.xx/1000.

[longislander]

Moultonborough
Just got town eblast. Hope this tax rate is not a typo!

"Tax Collector: The confirmed Tax Rate for 2022 is $4.78. "

Year Total Municipal County Local Ed State Ed
2022 $4.78 $1.25 $0.80 $1.76 $0.97

2021 2022
$6.98 $4.78 Total tax rate

-$2.20$ -31.5%


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif3506/f/uploads/tax_rate_history_-_2022.pdf

[phoenix]

well, it looks official. Good for selectmen Returning money to taxpayers

[thinkxingu]

When do assessment values change? Specifically, if residents paid half ($3.49) in July with a certain assessed value, will the assessed value be the same for the December bill?

And, if so, the equation will be assessment/1000 x 1.29, yes?

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[longislander]

The property tax year runs from April 1 through March 31. Property taxes are based on the assessed value of your property on April 1 of each tax year.

"The Town of Moultonborough bills twice each year. The first bill of the year is a partial payment, based on one-half of the previous year’s tax .,.. . This tax bill, printed and mailed out near the end of May, is usually due July 3rd every year."

"The tax rate is set in the fall of the year. The final bill is calculated using the new rate multiplied by your property’s assessed value as of April 1st less any payments made on the first bill. Printed and mailed in the middle to end of October, it is usually due December 1st each year. Interest at 8% per annum is charged on tax bills not paid by the due dates."

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/tax-collector/faq/what-billing-process


https://nhtaxkiosk.com/?KIOSKID=MOULTONBOROUGH

[phoenix]

so anyone whose assessed value that went up less than 31.5% should see a second half bill lower than the first half

[longislander]

Depends ....

https://www.depend.com/en-us/

[longislander]

Just got back in the house.
All kidding aside.
Just took a look at what my tax should be, if I'm doing this correctly:

old assessment X .00698 = old year tax = x 1/2 = last July tax, that I paid
new assessment X .00478 = new tax = x 1/2 = next tax for next July

This Dec tax:
new assessment X .00478 = new tax base less last July payment = this Dec.tax

Old and new assessments are on the town website property cards tax/gis.

[ACME on the Broads]

Curious if anyone has been able thus far to validate if the discussed $4.78 number is in fact the new Moultonborough Tax rate?

Thank you in advance.

[longislander]

The moultonborough tax collector has posted on the town website. See attached.

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif3506/f/uploads/tax_rate_history_-_2022.pdf

[ITD]

The tax rate is absolutely meaningless. What is this year's tax levy versus last year's?

[phoenix]

i guess i a confused. The assessment for each property has been finalized .My taxes for the year will be my assessed value x the tax rate. so to me its very meaningful

[ITD]

i guess i a confused. The assessment for each property has been finalized .My taxes for the year will be my assessed value x the tax rate. so to me its very meaningful

It is in that respect.

But the tax rate going up or down does not cause your tax bill to go up or down, the tax rate is merely a calculation that splits the levy among everyone.

The way that the tax collector in this town publishes the tax rate is not completely honest in my opinion. It gives the impression that taxes are going down. A more honest number would be to publish what the average value home will pay in taxes this year versus last year. I suspect the average tax bill increased this year unless something radical happened. The tax rate is meaningless.

[FlyingScot]

It is in that respect.

But the tax rate going up or down does not cause your tax bill to go up or down, the tax rate is merely a calculation that splits the levy among everyone.

The way that the tax collector in this town publishes the tax rate is not completely honest in my opinion. It gives the impression that taxes are going down. A more honest number would be to publish what the average value home will pay in taxes this year versus last year. I suspect the average tax bill increased this year unless something radical happened. The tax rate is meaningless.

When I read in comments in light of earlier extensive threads on assessments prior to tax rates being published, it sounds like you're more focused on a political point than what the actual bills will be. The assessments are finalized, the rate is critical info for every homeowner.

[longislander]

The tax rate is absolutely meaningless. What is this year's tax levy versus last year's?

Tax Levy:IRS :
"A levy is a legal seizure of your property to satisfy a tax debt. Levies are different from liens. A lien is a legal claim against property to secure payment of the tax debt, while a levy actually takes the property to satisfy the tax debt."

tax rate X assessement = tax ... thank you! Keeps away the tax collector when paid.

A more honest number would be to publish what the average value home will pay in taxes this year versus last year. I suspect the average tax bill increased this year unless something radical happened. The tax rate is meaningless.

When paying the town tax, most don't care about average tax bill. They care about their tax.
RE: Moultonborough, why not wait till the moultonborough taxes are sent out. Then see if tax went down. Then the conversations can begin on how "dumb" it was for the select board to return money back to the taxpayer, rather than spend on non-budgeted items.

[John Mercier]

It is in that respect.

But the tax rate going up or down does not cause your tax bill to go up or down, the tax rate is merely a calculation that splits the levy among everyone.

The way that the tax collector in this town publishes the tax rate is not completely honest in my opinion. It gives the impression that taxes are going down. A more honest number would be to publish what the average value home will pay in taxes this year versus last year. I suspect the average tax bill increased this year unless something radical happened. The tax rate is meaningless.

That is done during the annual budget, when monies are actually being allocated for expenditure.

Assessments don't change the budgeted expenditures.

[TheProfessor]

since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want it

GOOD QUESTION !

How that woman got elected is beyond comprehension.

Many years ago I had a witch for a tenant.
But was advised by the witch that witches are "good" witches.
As in the vein of Laurie Cabot below.

LINK (https://www.lauriecabot.com/)

Go figure !

[tis]

Two reason these people keep getting elected- either people don't know how they stand or they are part of the crowd that has their pet project.

[ITD]

When I read in comments in light of earlier extensive threads on assessments prior to tax rates being published, it sounds like you're more focused on a political point than what the actual bills will be. The assessments are finalized, the rate is critical info for every homeowner.

Please just read what I wrote and don't try to read my mind, you suck at it.

[ITD]

That is done during the annual budget, when monies are actually being allocated for expenditure.

Assessments don't change the budgeted expenditures.

Exactly John, I've been saying this for quite a while. Budgets also need to be voted on for the spending to happen.

Publishing a graph that shows tax rates decreasing, which is totally meaningless, makes me wonder why the tax collector does it?

[ITD]

Tax Levy:IRS :
"A levy is a legal seizure of your property to satisfy a tax debt. Levies are different from liens. A lien is a legal claim against property to secure payment of the tax debt, while a levy actually takes the property to satisfy the tax debt."

tax rate X assessement = tax ... thank you! Keeps away the tax collector when paid.



When paying the town tax, most don't care about average tax bill. They care about their tax.
RE: Moultonborough, why not wait till the moultonborough taxes are sent out. Then see if tax went down. Then the conversations can begin on how "dumb" it was for the select board to return money back to the taxpayer, rather than spend on non-budgeted items.

Levy means to impose, such as impose a tax on the town.

Part of the problem is that people don't want to understand this stuff. Those who want to spend more money love that. Letting people think that rising real estate prices are the reason taxes rise is deceptive. It needs to stop.

The government should not collect one penny more than it needs, having a surplus is a result of very poor planning IMO.



Side note: Is there a multi quote function in this forum?

[John Mercier]

Exactly John, I've been saying this for quite a while. Budgets also need to be voted on for the spending to happen.

Publishing a graph that shows tax rates decreasing, which is totally meaningless, makes me wonder why the tax collector does it?

I think the BOS started that.
In a City, the budget process is different than the towns... and I think the City Council wanted to somehow promote they were being conservative with tax dollars... even though the tax rate is actually not the real means to confer that.

I think the town BOS just followed along.

I would love to change town budget votes to some time right after people got a tax bill in the mail... that would really do the trick.

[phoenix]

Well for most its a drop ( my assessment went up 26% ) so this is a drop. i understand someone is paying more or at least.maybe new construction . of course John will role out his depends

[John Mercier]

Longislander did the ''depends''.

I don't know what the overall valuation increased in Moultonborough... so I don't know if 26% is good, bad, or par.

[tummyman]

Overall valuation up 24.05%........(2022) $4,892,023,118 vs (2021) $3,943,560,976

[phoenix]

Sorry john you are correct

[ACME on the Broads]

Perhaps one of our current (or past) selectmen could weigh in here, maybe Chuck Mcgee?

[thinkxingu]

When do assessment values change? Specifically, if residents paid half ($3.49) in July with a certain assessed value, will the assessed value be the same for the December bill?

And, if so, the equation will be assessment/1000 x 1.29, yes?

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using TapatalkI thought the answer to this was that the assessments stay the same for July/December, but it appears that's incorrect and that the assessments stay the same for December and the following July—at least that's what my tax bills show.

Also, December tax bills are ready!

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[longislander]

I thought the answer to this was that the assessments stay the same for July/December

The do.

The assessmennts are effective as of April 1st ... April 1 to March 31

" ... all property taxes shall be assessed on the inventory taken in April of that year, ..."

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/V/76/76-2.htm


The tax rate changes for December

Go to this site. The assessment for both years should be there.

https://www.nhtaxkiosk.com/default.aspx




Since this thread started with "HUB status in Moultonborough", Moultonborough voters should be sure and take the survey:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdKPbBFhwuIWQNo-NF2L_eP30dwccCjfs8CBt_amdui-O4q1g/viewform

https://thehubmoultonborough.com/

[longislander]

Exactly John, I've been saying this for quite a while. Budgets also need to be voted on for the spending to happen.


Budgets are voted on ... at town meeting. They can be changed there and modified etc. Some of us have motioned at the meetings, to change a lline item of the budget when the warrant article comes up, to change a number to 0 (zero). If majority vote agrees ... the line item changes to 0. Any other number or vote follows the same process.

[thinkxingu]

My assessment for this (December) bill was higher than for the last (July) bill.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[longislander]

The July and December assessments should be based in the April assessment.

Your property card on the town tax/gis map should show 2020, 2021, 2022 assessments on the right side.

https://www.axisgis.com/moultonboroughNH/

If you went to the tax kiosk, there should have been the 2021 and 2022 assessments at the bottom left of each invoice.

Or, maybe you should call the tax assessor and ask what are your assessments

Name Title Phone
Thomas P. Hughes Town Assessor (603) 476-2347 x315
Tracy Cragin Assessing Technician (603) 476-2347 x306

I might have posted this prior:

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/tax-collector/faq/what-billing-process

[tummyman]

Maybe I do not understand your first sentence, but the June bill is based on the prior year assessed valuations. It is not updated to the new assessments as of April 1st until the December bill.

[thinkxingu]

Maybe I do not understand your first sentence, but the June bill is based on the prior year assessed valuations. It is not updated to the new assessments as of April 1st until the December bill.Ok, that makes sense. I figured the April assessments would have been in place for the July bill.

Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[longislander]

the June bill is based on the prior year assessed valuations.

I believe it was due in July not June.
But, correcty, the 2022 first half-year tax bill was April 2021 assessment X 6.98/1000.

Maybe April of which year needs to be clearified. "Assessment" in any month, used in conversations can be confusing.

I may be wrong, but this December's tax bill is based on the April 2022 assessment x the new tax rate of the fall of 2022, less payments made against the 2021 assessment X old tax rate (2022 July bill). New tax rate doesn't happen till the fall which became 4.78/1000.

The tax that was due by 7/1/2022 was based on the April 2021 assessment x 6.98/1000 tax rate.

The December 2022 tax bill due 1/11/2023 is based on the April 2022 assessment x 4.78/1000 tax rate less payment on the July bill.

The July 2023 tax bill will be the April 2022 assessment x tax rate set in the fall of 2022 (4.78/1000)

The tax rate is set in the fall of the year. The final bill is calculated using the new rate multiplied by your property’s assessed value as of April 1st less any payments made on the first bill.

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/tax-collector/faq/what-billing-process


Now, getting back to The Hub thread... How many MoBo residents on this forum have taken the survey? Why aren't you asking what is :

Would you vote in support of building The HUB as designed, if the impact to taxpayers was LESS than $0.36/$1000 of town assessed property value?

Try extrapolating "the cost" of the Hub from that number and what did they use for assessed value.

Isn't this fun!

[longislander]

Mea Culpa!

Please note the above references to tax bills should be adjusted to acknowledge that tax bills are half year cycles.

[thinkxingu]

Since this thread started with "HUB status in Moultonborough", Moultonborough voters should be sure and take the survey:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdKPbBFhwuIWQNo-NF2L_eP30dwccCjfs8CBt_amdui-O4q1g/viewform

https://thehubmoultonborough.com/

I just took the survey.

Two of the questions have to do with tax increases (paraphrased): "would you vote for the HUB for $.06/$1k or $.36/$1k" tax impact? That's a pretty sizable gap.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[longislander]

From the town eblast I got today:

"Tax Collector: The Tax Bills were mailed from our Printing Company on Monday, December 5, 2022. Please be advised that amounts will be posted online no later than Thursday, December 8, 2022. The due date for the 2nd Half Real Estate Taxes is January 11, 2023. Should you have any questions, please contact the tax office."

The kiosk seems to have the bill; at least mine seems to be correct, including the veteran's discount.

https://www.nhtaxkiosk.com/default.aspx

[longislander]

The .036/1000 relates to the building.
The .06/1000 relates to the operating costs ... allegedly.

The combination of the two, if correct, would give the annual cost, presumably for, say a ten year bond etc. (my guess).

The survey states " $0.36/$1000 of town assessed property value"

I did my home assessment and came up with a difference of $196 from my present annual tax and the added cost tax. I then attempted to extrapolate for a total cost to build. I have my number, but will wait till the Dec. 15 select board meeting when the proponents of The Hub are supposed to give an update on the survey. They will probably be asked, outright, what is the cost.There's a reason the absolute value of the cost (present value) is not on the survey.

You may already have, but here is valuations assigned by the NH DRA:

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/municipal/documents/22-tax-rates.pdf

You'll note the valuations, total tax rate and total commitment.

[winni83]

I just took the survey.

Two of the questions have to do with tax increases (paraphrased): "would you vote for the HUB for $.06/$1k or $.36/$1k" tax impact? That's a pretty sizable gap.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

The $.06 is for the annual operating cost and the $.36 is for the cost to build. I am sure that the HUB proponents know what the total cost will be and they will try to delay putting that figure out as long as possible. I think it will be huge. The survey is misleading to say the least. I responded to the survey and not in a nice way.

[longislander]

While not attacking The Hub proponents ... but ... they approached, and the town granted $23,000 from capital reserves to get a cost. My underestanding is two contractors were approached and one complied. They have a cost, I believe.

How "good" is the estimate and the estimators?

Some folks in town have guessed @ $15-20 million.

The number I came up with, playing with my assessment, is in that ballpark, depending on assumptions, give or take a $million or two.

[longislander]

Much discussion on assessments, but liittle talk on total tax rates. The two give the tax bill (semi-annual) that hits the wallet.

In Moultonborough, the tax rate went from $6.98/1000 to $4.78/1000 thanks in part to the $1.8 million returned (municipal) to the taxpayers. Thanks to Tummyman for being the "tip of the spear" that got that going. The select board finally followed town policy #32 keeping 12.5% for unassigned funds and still gave the $1.8 million back to the taxpayers.

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif3506/f/uploads/32_fundbalance2015.pdf


Will the tax rate go up next year ... maybe. Will the Lakes Region real estate prices come down after this crazy year and bring assessments down... who knows.


The four components of the total tax rate all went down this last billing cycle:

Moultonborough:

2021 2022 $ change % change

Municipal $2.23 $1.25 -$1.08 -46.4%
County $1.01 $ .80 -$ .21 - 20.8%
Local Edu. $1.97 $1.76 -$ .21 -10.7%
State Edu. $1.67 $ .97 -$ .70 -41.9%

Total
Tax rate $6.98 $4.78 -$2.20 - 31.5%


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif3506/f/uploads/tax_rate_history_-_2022.pdf



Now ... for The Hub!

[tummyman]

When you look at the total assessed valuation for the town, $.06 cents per thousand valuation equates to approx. $300,000 of annual operating costs.That is a lot of added money to the town expenses for a facility that seems like a want and not a need. We already have a community center and a lot of unused school gym space. And there is no guarantee that this is even a reasonable number. And there is no plan on offsetting any of these costs with usage / membership fees. So the real cost may be a whole lot more.

Concerning the estimate of costs, remember it was TOWN money that was used to get the cost estimate BUT there is no disclosure by the town. Why is this information being withheld from the public??? Who has determined that taxpayers cannot see the detailed information now? So taxpayers fund the cost to get an estimate but the HUB people get the results. And there was supposed to be at least two estimates but now only one?? So this one estimate is now the gold standard? There is no guarantee on anything unless the HUB gets a firm quote to build.

[John Mercier]

Design/Build would always be firm.
But you really don't know what you will get for the money until it is done.

[longislander]

The $23,000 was requested and granted from capital reserves (CR148), town funds. How much spent? Town activity is subject to Right-To-Know requests, RSA 91-A. Whether done by design or otherwise, the Hub proponents (503- c 3) is probably not under the town umbrella and not subject to RTK. If the town has a copy of the estimate (more than likely) that could be RTK.

Also,

4.78/1000 + .36/1000 + .06/1000 X town assessed property value = added cost to munipal tax rate
4.78 + .36 + .06 = new rate
4.48 + .36 + .06 = 5.2 (all /$1000)

new rate X town valuation = new tax commitment

$5.2/$1000 X $4,892,023,118 = $25,438,520

new tax commitment less old commitment = difference for Hub
$25,438,520 less $23,355,110 = $2,083410

Added $2+ million for the build and annual operating cost cost!!!???

Let's say it is a 10 year bond or something ... can this be anywhere right???
Like, a $20 million 10 year bond at ?% interest???

My logic, if not my math, is probably faulty.

Oh well ... someone will probably ask for a cost number at the Dec15th meeting.


https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/municipal/documents/22-tax-rates.pdf

[winni83]

It seems to be that there are two separate groups involved in promoting the Community Center. The first is Friends Of The Moultonborough Community Center; this is a nonprofit corporation formed in NH.
See
https://quickstart.sos.nh.gov/online/BusinessInquire/BusinessInformation?businessID=714337

The second is The HUB Moultonborough Community, Activity and Aquatic Center. The HUB recently changed the pretentious “Centre” to “Center”. As best I can tell, the HUB is not registered with the NH Secretary of State. It appears from the HUB webpage that donations go to the Friends of the Moultonborough Community Center. See

https://thehubmoultonborough.com/

The HUB webpage describes the HUB as “The HUB Community Center Working Group is comprised of six private citizens brought together by Mark Borrin and Kim Johnson to establish a focus on a needs-based approach to design, construct and equip a town owned Community center in Moultonborough.” The HUB webpage also states that “The group was formed privately as an off-shoot of the 2021 town meeting Article #16 – an article to create plans and cost estimation for building a Community Center in Moultonborough. The group has worked privately and has been presenting its findings to the Moultonborough Select Board periodically.”
So what entity got the approximately $23,000 to fund the estimate? Did the Town pay for it directly or did the money go to The Friends Of The Moultonborough Community Center or the HUB? Seems to me it should be easy enough to track the expenditures from whatever account it was disbursed.

[longislander]

I believe you are correct ... two separate groups. The Friends etc. is an LLC created to get donations under 501(c)(3) and get the donations.

"a 501(c) organization may not allow its donors to write off donations while a 501(c)(3) organization lets its donors take tax deductions on their contributions."

The Hub is promoted " ... to establish a focus on a needs-based approach to design, construct and equip a town owned Community center in Moultonborough."

Principals of both organizations are the same (not all of them, though).

It is accepted that the Thursday, May 11, 2023 Town meeting (second session) scheduled for 6:00 PM will have a warrant article for the Hub. It is no longer on Saturdays.The select board has the legal right for this. The town legislative body votes on which month; March or April or May. Will this be a petiitioned article or an article submitted by the select board without a petition for the Hub (judging by comments made at BoS meetings). Some may feel, if the select board puts it in, it will be more convincing, rather than a petition.

It is more than likely The Hub group principals, since the $23,000 is not a donation and the town hopefully didn't get involved with tax deduction of public money. Another interesting angle pointed out in the past might be for those who donated in 2022 and will claim 2022 tax deductions. The 501(C)(3) has stated in the past it would return the donations if the build fell through. That wouldn't happen till 2023. Means what ... 2022 tax return amendment or risk an IRS audit?


See section C of these BoS minutes:
https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif3506/f/minutes/bos_minutes_8.18.2022.pdf

[winni83]

From the minutes of the 8-18-22 BOS meeting (emphasis added):

"C. Moultonborough Community Centre (“The Hub”) construction cost estimator proposals: Chairman Quinlan reviewed the agenda report to approve proposals from vendors, Castagna and CONESTCO for the purpose of completing a con-struction cost estimator to build a community center, today known as “The Hub.” Further, that vendors use the Moultonborough Community Center sche-matic design created by Stewart Associates Architects. Ms. Kim Johnson, 201
Page 4 of 6
Moultonborough Neck Road reported that cost quotes include finalizing costs for early 2023 so that there are more solid numbers for Town meeting. Cur-rently, there is $27,411 in the fund and they have fund raised approximately $35,000. Chairman Quinlan said that they need the plans from February 2022, project #2018.131. Ms. Diane McArthur, 57 Long Point Road asked questions on cost, maintenance, staffing, energy requirements to name a few and came from a place where they had an aquatic center. She asked about phasing, and Ms. Johnson said that phasing resets the construction project; during various community meetings, it was the residents who expressed their desire for a pool. Discussion ensued.
Motion: Selectman Beadle To approve both proposals from vendors, Castagna and CONESTCO for the purpose of completing a construction cost estimator to build a town community center, today known as the Hub. Further, proposal from Castagna Consulting group for $12,250 and with a not to exceed proposal from CONESTCO for $10,800. Both expenditures are to be distributed from the Community/Senior Center Capital Reserve Fund as presented and to authorize the Town Administrator to sign and that all communications go through the Town Administrator. Chair Quinlan added for project #2018-131 from Stewart Architects and that they use the February 2022 drawings. Seconded: Vice Chairman Colby Vote: 4 – 1 Selectman Quinlan opposed.
Motion passed."

So if all communications on the estimate are to go through the Administrator, why are they not subject to a Right to Know Request?

[longislander]

So if all communications on the estimate are to go through the Administrator, why are they not subject to a Right to Know Request?


Good point!
They probably are!
Leads right back to a BoS warrant article and not a petition.

Should also note from the minutes:

Vote: 4 – 1 Selectman Quinlan opposed.
Motion passed.


Also,
I believe it has been said somewhere that only one contractor provided info.
Could it be CONESTCO?

http://conestco.com/

http://conestco.com/id5.html

[longislander]

From the minutes of the 8-18-22 BOS meeting (emphasis added):

From the agenda for the 8-18-22 meeting:

See pages 40, 41 and 42

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif3506/f/agendas/08_18_22_bos_agenda_packet.pdf

[FlyingScot]

The .036/1000 relates to the building.
The .06/1000 relates to the operating costs ... allegedly.

The combination of the two, if correct, would give the annual cost, presumably for, say a ten year bond etc. (my guess).

The survey states " $0.36/$1000 of town assessed property value"

I did my home assessment and came up with a difference of $196 from my present annual tax and the added cost tax. I then attempted to extrapolate for a total cost to build. I have my number, but will wait till the Dec. 15 select board meeting when the proponents of The Hub are supposed to give an update on the survey. They will probably be asked, outright, what is the cost.There's a reason the absolute value of the cost (present value) is not on the survey.

You may already have, but here is valuations assigned by the NH DRA:

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/municipal/documents/22-tax-rates.pdf

You'll note the valuations, total tax rate and total commitment.

These numbers maker it interesting, and also understandable from the proponents perspective. If a person expects to use the facility regularly, even once/month or two, then $200/year (and presumably $1200 up front) is a no-brainer.

Of course, for those who do not expect to use it periodically, especially if on a fixed income...

[John Mercier]

I always wondered this concept...

Explain ''fixed income''.

Inflation goes up 10%... SS goes up 10%... and working labor wages go up 3-5%.

Medicare goes up 10%, and a limit kicks in... market medical insurance goes up 10%... and workers lose their health insurance.

I think we ''overplay'' the ''fixed income'' a bit.
It isn't like many seniors couldn't go back to work... they just don't want to.

[longislander]

Here we go!

Explain ''fixed income"

I think we ''overplay'' the ''fixed income'' a bit.
It isn't like many seniors couldn't go back to work... they just don't want to.
Today 03:05 PM


Explain fixed income:
Simple: that income which an individual can provide himself/herself (cognizant reflexive pronouns) into day-to-day activities to survive in that same society, or continue to exist in a norm deemed acceptable, in some semblance of societal acceptance, let alone self-respect, and deemed "worthy".

Not everyone has "benes". I'm fortunate to have some (many). No gifts ... I worked for them; in industries (plural) and including close to two years in Vietnam with the 189th Assault Helicopter Company, Army, (doorgunner in UH-1 and school-trained in Avionics)(in Vietnam, May 1967-Feb.1969, Pleiku, Central Highlands) supposedly fighting for our democracy, which is actually a republic.

I'm 75 years young and living comfortably in Moultonborough (have property/2nd home since 1974) on fixed income ... SSA ... pension ... RMD. I don't need my RMD and would rather not be required to take it out. I have more trouble figuring out what to do with my RMD.

Are you?

Bring it up again when you're my age.

[John Mercier]

But your income is not ''fixed'' if it adjusts for inflation... the real world doesn't do that. Hence why real wages are down.

[longislander]

But your income is not ''fixed'' if it adjusts for inflation... the real world doesn't do that. Hence why real wages are down.


Of course, for those who do not expect to use it periodically, especially if on a fixed income...

Most of us understood what was meant and in what context.

FlyingScot didn't say "fixed" but "fixed income".

Google "fixed income", or better yet Google "fixed income definition" and see what you get.

Here's Merriam Webster dictionary for"fixed income":
" having a uniform or relatively uniform annual income or yield
bonds and preferred stocks are fixed-income securities
inflation has its hardest impact on such fixed-income groups as people who have retired on social security"


Ya, ... I suspect you didn't mean investments ...google "fixed income" anyway and see.

You have no idea of my income, "fixed" as in "static" as I believe you intended.

"Adjustments to inflation" are varied. Those on Social Security just got a COLA. Ask many of them if their Soc Sec. income is still "fixed" relative to living expenses ... or actualy went down substanstially relative to inflation. Does "fixed" count if living expenses skyrocket?

The thread conversation was evolving about relative costs to a proposed town tax increase, not a literal definition of a word ... "fixed" ... but subject to interpretation.

Wages are not the same as income. Are wages down:

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.nr0.htm

How about layoffs and bankruptcies?

[John Mercier]

"fixed income" when truly an inflation-adjusted income... is an oxymoron. Especially when using it to infer that retirees are in more of a financial bind than the employed population.

It is like crying wolf... and why many times they are voted against.

[longislander]

... is an oxymoron

You've got it half-right.

[winni83]

In the agenda packet for the Board of Selectmen's meeting tomorrow the "Cost Estimate" for the HUB is included, along with an estimate of operating costs. I have not been though it yet, but note that the cost is estimated to be $14,243,515 if I read it correctly.

See17913

[longislander]

Build cost: $ $14,243, 415
Operating cost: $394,432 less $125,000 income = $269,432

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif3506/f/uploads/the_hub_-_moultonborough_community_activity_and_aquatic_cen tre_-_3-14-2022.pdf

Agenda packet:

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif3506/f/agendas/12_15_22_bos_agenda_packet.pdf

Agenda pages 6-27 are the Architects, Stewart Associates, build
specifications.


Pages 28-44 are Conestco's probable costs
Agenda page 28 is summary of cost
Agenda pages 29-43 is detail of Conestco opinion of probable build cost
Agenda page 44 is Conestco probable annual operating cost and income

[phoenix]

hope someone goes to the meeting to give us a report. Hard to believe that this size of unnecessary project could get thru the town meeting .

[ITD]

Not all "fixed income" is a government program. There are pension schemes that are fixed income, people rely on things like annuities too. Even Social security, with it's increases should still be considered a fixed income. Adjusting for inflation does not increase the spending power. In fact, many would argue that inflation indices used to quantify inflation aren't even close to reality.

[phoenix]

hard to believe you can run this facility for less that 400K

[longislander]

hope someone goes to the meeting to give us a report. Hard to believe that this size of unnecessary project could get thru the town meeting .


I'm usually there for the select board, two business meetings per month, but not the work sessions.

Looking at the agenda and The Hub is scheduled for section VI, A, and depending on how long the badge ceremony lasts (Section III,A) I'd guess around 4:10-4:20 PM or so is when the Hub part of the meeting should come up. presumption is the proponents of the Hub will go to the mike and give an update.

If you have time, go to the stream and watch the stream live.

https://townhallstreams.com/towns/moultonborough_nh

[John Mercier]

Not all "fixed income" is a government program. There are pension schemes that are fixed income, people rely on things like annuities too. Even Social security, with it's increases should still be considered a fixed income. Adjusting for inflation does not increase the spending power. In fact, many would argue that inflation indices used to quantify inflation aren't even close to reality.

But when you are using it to imply that the working population isn't hurting like those with inflation-adjusted retirement incomes, it is going to fall on very deaf ears.

Especially since the working population is seeing their incomes increase at a slower rate than the ''fixed'' incomes. I see it every day. We have a lot more working poor *yes - I know that is considered not PC currently* than we wish to admit to.

[longislander]

What I'm confused about is regarding the Conestco cost $14,512,847 relative to the survey questions and town valuation.

Survey:
Would you vote in support of building The HUB as designed, if the impact to taxpayers was LESS than $0.36/$1000 of town assessed property value?

Would you vote in support of building The HUB as designed, if the annual operating costs after construction, had an impact to taxpayers of LESS than $0.06/$1000 of town assessed property value?

($.36/$1,000 + $.06/$1,000) of the survey X town assessed value $4,892,023,118 (without the added Hub cost) is:

.00042 X $4,892,023,118 = $2,054,650

If the survey is factoring a bond somewhere, it would be unusual for a town to have less than a ten year bond at some % interest.

$2million + a year for ten years would be in the $20 million+ range, not $14.5 million of the Conestco quote.

[John Mercier]

The bond would not include the operating cost... just the build cost.

.36/1000 x 4,892,023,118 = 1,761,128.32

The value of the HUB does not come into play as town property is not in the total assessment, it is treated as a non-profit devoid of property taxes.

The above figure using a 10 bond would make the bond value vary with the interest rate to be paid.

A mortgage calculator estimates that would be about a 4% bond rate using 10 years as the term.

[longislander]

I agree about the operating cost not being part of the bond.

The two numbers were just to highlight the expense to the town and let folks play with the numbers. They are both paid by the taxpayers ... at some point.

The Hub building is not a non-profit. The 501C(3) non-profit (HUB Community Center Working Group) is a group formed to get funds for a new town building, on town property. They are a separate entity. The building (not the group) would then be added to town assets.

I introduced a bond into the thread since bonds were not mentioned in the survey nor costs estimates (at least I didn't notice). I do not disagree with your estimate of the bond. Why haven't you included your calculations, or at least the link to the calculator you used?

https://www.nhmbb.org/

https://www.nhmbb.org/images/pdfs/Final_2022_Series_C_OS.pdf

In the past (almost annually) the recreation center warrant article on the town warrant has been by petition. It appears that this attempt is to have the select board submit by appropriation, not petition. Might look better coming from the governing body.

The debate/vote at town meeting will be " for, school crowd" v. "against, seniors" to get the 3/5ths majority vote to approve the warrant article (usually one article including bond).

The seniors might ask why ten years. Why not 29 years. Let the younger crowd pay longer since they will enjoy a lot longer before the building is paid off. A floor motion to amend the bond, presuming there is one (I "presumed" the bond into this thread) could cause more confusion at town meeting.

I did send this to the select board and town moderator.

RE: bonds.
Dated NHMA article; 2012
"Thus, any amendment to a bond article must satisfy not only RSA 39:2, but must also not change the “subject” for purposes of RSA 33:8-a, I. There are no Supreme Court cases on the scope of permissible amendments of a bond article. Given the level of scrutiny, amendments to bond articles should be treated conservatively. Check with bond counsel if an amendment is anticipated."

https://www.nhmunicipal.org/town-city-article/amendments-warrant-articles-guidance-town-meeting

[John Mercier]

Calling the building a ''town asset'' doesn't change the fact that town property is not assessed for taxation purposes.

[longislander]

The value of the HUB does not come into play as town property is not in the total assessment, it is treated as a non-profit devoid of property taxes.

I agree. I misunderstood your comment. The Hub will become a town asset, but town assets are not taxed.
The town will still need to pay for the building/bond, however through, taxation.

What is the relevance of the $.36/$1000 assessment relative to the $14,512,847 bond, if a bond? Where did the $.36/$1000 come from.

The bond would not include the operating cost... just the build cost.
.36/1000 x 4,892,023,118 = 1,761,128.32

The $4,892,023,118 is total valuation. The total Tax effort is $23,355,110

[phoenix]

or a liability depending on your prospective. Also, the estimate is not binding, and the cost could be higher if approved and goes out to bid as everything is going up including interest rates

[longislander]

Agree with phoenix.

Also,

Did this one more thing before heading out:

https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/amortization-calculator/

Loan amount: $14,243,415
Loan term: 10 Years
Rate: 4%
Loan start date: Dec 2022 (just for this exercise not 2023)


Results I got:

Monthly payment: $144,208
Total Interest paid: $3,061,503
Total cost of loan paid: $17,304,918
Payoff date: Dec.2032

[John Mercier]

I agree. I misunderstood your comment. The Hub will become a town asset, but town assets are not taxed.
The town will still need to pay for the building/bond, however through, taxation.

What is the relevance of the $.36/$1000 assessment relative to the $14,512,847 bond, if a bond? Where did the $.36/$1000 come from.



The $4,892,023,118 is total valuation. The total Tax effort is $23,355,110

Estimated annual bond premium (principal and interest) based on term and rate using a mortgage calculation divided by the total property valuation declared in a cost per thousand of valuation. $14.5M over 10 years at around 4% is about .36 per thousand.

[John Mercier]

I agree. I misunderstood your comment. The Hub will become a town asset, but town assets are not taxed.
The town will still need to pay for the building/bond, however through, taxation.

What is the relevance of the $.36/$1000 assessment relative to the $14,512,847 bond, if a bond? Where did the $.36/$1000 come from.



The $4,892,023,118 is total valuation. The total Tax effort is $23,355,110

They could play with the term to keep the annualized cost in-line corresponding to the estimate of .36 per thousand.

A project that is design/build in general already has the contractor so it doesn't go to bid. That is the bid; and the price is locked.

[longislander]

Just heading out the door to Concord but should be back for the 4:00 PM meeting.

Annualized cost should be part of the annual budget, as in a contractual, monetary town responsibility.

Valuation sets the tax rate, but the town budget is part of the tax effort, I believe. Town Tax effort divided by Town Valuation = Town tax rate.

I suspect a "build contractor" RFQ would go out in the spring/summer if the town approves the warrant article. The one of two "cost contractors" Conestco (the other did not meet requirements set) does not appear "big" enough to get the job done.

I would agree price is locked when the town and contractor have signed a contract.

[John Mercier]

It does become part of the annual budget.
But because it is a bond premium... it isn't open to being adjusted.

I am not sure how they would word an open bonding amount.

Maybe bond up to... but not really sure.

Most often the design/build locks the number and then the amount is bonded at the next town budget vote or denied.
That process is then either dropped or repeated again for the next cycle until the bond warrant passes.

[longislander]

Still waiting for the wife. Maybe this where the survey numbers come from:

Just noticed bond monthly payment: $144,208 X 12 months = $1,730,496 annual payments

$1,730,496 annual payment divided by $4,892,023,118 valuation = .0003537 or .03537/1000

Close enough to " $.036$/1000 of town assesed property value "impact to taxpayers" .

[longislander]

Sitting here waiting for the wife to get out of her appointment. I don't usually take my laptop but did today and noticed a typo in last post.

$1,730,496 annual payment divided by $4,892,023,118 valuation = .0003537 or .03537/1000

Close enough to " $.036$/1000 of town assesed property value "impact to taxpayers" .

Should be $.36/$1000 not $.036/$1000

[longislander]

Back in MoBo and getting ready for the meeting.

If it's $1,730,496 added to the town tax effort, then:

Present municipal Tax effort $6,144,066 and add $1,730,496 = $7,874,562 is new municipal tax effort.

$1,730, 496 added to $23,355,110 ( present total tax effort, Municipal + County + Local Ed. + State Ed.) = $25,085,606 new total tax effort

The municipal $7,874,562 divided by $4,892,023,118 (Valuation) = 1.61/1000 town tax rate. Present tax rate is 1.25/1000

Total tax rate is presently 4.78/1000. New rate is 5.14/1000
1.61 + .80 + 1.76 + .97 = 5.14

[longislander]

After this evening's select board meeting ... actually a 15 year bond at 5.25%, not 10 year at 4% ... no one knew how the $.36/$1000 was calculated, except given by the bond folks saying .36/1000 ... of what ... did the only rational thing.

Went to Buckeyes, had a couple of brews with dinner and came home.

Good Bye and so long!

[longislander]

15 year bond at 5.25% interest

Monthly payment $114,500 x 12 months = $1,374,000 annually
Total interest paid $6,366,520
Total cost of loan $20,609,935
Payoff date Dec 2037

[tis]

Just watching these towns spend money, I am beginning to think recreation is more important than police, fire, infrastructure. Is that what government is supposed to be about?

[fatlazyless]

Just watching these towns spend money, I am beginning to think recreation is more important than police, fire, infrastructure. Is that what government is supposed to be about?

NH towns have their own local public school buildings that usually have gymnasiums that can be used for adult recreation during off school hours, when the student population is not using them. Volleyball, basketball, and pickleball programs are all doable in the off-hours at your local school gym.

For three dollars you can play pickleball from 10:15-11:45, Tues, Thurs, Friday at the Laconia Community Center ..... www.laconianh.gov/1030/Community-Center ....... two p-ball courts with a maple hardwood floor ..... where and when the best pickleballers go to play!

[John Mercier]

Just watching these towns spend money, I am beginning to think recreation is more important than police, fire, infrastructure. Is that what government is supposed to be about?

Boating, snowmobiling, alpine skiing, horseback riding, etc, etc, etc...
The towns/cities focus on what the population focuses on.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

This is definitely NOT the time to be pushing the ridiculous HUB on Moultonboro taxpayers. A perfect solution, percolating in my sick mind, would be to have nonresident waterfront taxpayers suddenly claim their NH property as their primary residence, and then appear at Town Meeting in May and vote against the warrant article. I realize this isn’t necessarily a practical solution, but a huge percentage of our taxes (70%?) are paid by non residents. Who knows? Maybe enough taxpayers will be sick of having their wallets picked!

[John Mercier]

You mean March?
They would just add it to the next cycle like they have been doing.

It is actually pretty hard to get a bond to pass... and that is on items that many may consider necessary; like fire or police.

[longislander]

You mean March?

Moultonborough changed the "town meeting day" to May a couple of years ago. For 2023, "ballot voting" day is May 9th, Tuesday, for voting on officials, zoning, and other items only allowed by statute. The second session is on Thursday May 11th, starting at 6:00pm, at the school academy.

Legally, the town voters (legislative body) decides the meeting month, either March, April, or May. The governing body, (select board for MoBo) decides the time and day, legally, of the second session.

For many, many years, the second session was on Saturday, starting in the morning around 9:30am or so, after the School District annual meeting at the same location.

Some believe the premise for the change away from Saturday, was because the change to May interfered a lot with warm weather activities, that were not affected as much in March; e.g., boating, outdoor sports etc.

Others believe the change to a night session during the week, not weekend, was to keep the seniors away from voting against The Hub.

[FlyingScot]

Some believe the premise for the change away from Saturday, was because the change to May interfered a lot with warm weather activities, that were not affected as much in March; e.g., boating, outdoor sports etc.

Others believe the change to a night session during the week, not weekend, was to keep the seniors away from voting against The Hub.

Great illustration of how the "pure...perfect..." romanticized version of democracy that is Town Meeting is among the least democratic structures. Basically, people have to "pay" (with their valuable time) to vote. Much more appropriate for major issues would be a ballot question in November and/or elected representatives with authority

[TiltonBB]

Great illustration of how the "pure...perfect..." romanticized version of democracy that is Town Meeting is among the least democratic structures. Basically, people have to "pay" (with their valuable time) to vote. Much more appropriate for major issues would be a ballot question in November and/or elected representatives with authority
Other people may have opposing views.

I grew up in a town with an open Town Meeting format. It gives every citizen the opportunity to question department heads, Selectmen, Finance Committee, School Committee and any town official about any issue. Anyone can go to the microphone and state their case and amend the wording of any line item or the amount to be appropriated.

If someone views their time as too valuable to get involved in the decision making they also lose the opportunity to educate themselves about the issues. A simple ballot question can be worded in many ways to push the desired outcome.

Many people move into a town and their only concern is trash disposal and how well their street gets plowed. They couldn't name one Selectman or town official and learn very little about how the town operates. Those are not the people I would want voting on important questions that will shape the future of the town.

[John Mercier]

We use SB2.
Ballot question in March.

The deliberative session allows for the question/answer/comment/amend without making the town meeting take all day.

[TheProfessor]

I grew up in a town with an open Town Meeting format. It gives every citizen the opportunity to question department heads, Selectmen, Finance Committee, School Committee and any town official about any issue.

SB2 does the exact same thing. And cuts all the bulls**t out.

[longislander]

I wasn't a resident yet, but Moultonbourough has voted 4 times for SB2 adoption, in the past and failed. Senate bill SB2 passed in 1995 and put the question on the Tuesday ballot for adoption (need a petition). Most voters probably didn't understand what SB2 is/was. In 2019 the NH legislature changed the adoption process with HB415. It changed SB2 adoption from the Tuesday ballot ... to the business session of town meeting. There will be an SB2 petition on Moultonborough's 2023 warrant. Some of us are getting ready with handouts.

SB2 vs. Traditional Meeting

FOR SB2:
SB2: A Month to Research Warrant Discussions Before Voting.
SB2: All Warrant Articles Are Voted on Tuesday Ballot, not just electing
officials, zoning, and other required by statute.
All day voting. In and out in a little while. Not hours and hours waiting
to vote.
SB2: Absentee Ballots Include ALL Warrant Articles
Snowbirds, military, and other absentees can vote on all warrant articles.
SB2: All Voting is Secret, in curtained voting booth
Traditional meeting hand, card, or paper votes intimidate some voters.


AGAINST SB2:
Fewer Attendees at SB2 Deliberative Session
There should be! Many already know how they will vote.
SB2 Does Not Allow Debate of Warrant Articles
Not true! Yes, it does, at the deliberative session. Same as traditional.
SB2 Does Not Allow Amendments to Warrant Articles
Not true! Yes, It Does, at the deliberative session. Same as traditional.
Traditional Meeting Allows For More of a Social Event.
No, it doesn't. SB2 Deliberative Session social event can be the same.
SB2 Jeopardizes the Budget
Traditional imperils the budget more. SB2 has default budget or other.

[Descant]

We changed from traditional to SB2 in 1996. I've been active in town government since 1990 and active in the community since 1976. We used to have huge turnout to towm meeting-three gymnasia full, connected electronically, three big monitors, One Moderator with an assistant in each gym. Worked pretty good. Now, we get ~50 attendees plus department heads. Some union members if there is a contract to vote on, but generally, you can't amend the contract already agreed to by the BOS, just vote yes or no.
The default budget is a scam. Despite attempts to clean up the process, it frequently is closely equal to or even exceeds the proposed budget. All the folks who were afraid that ballot voting would kill the expansion budgets found a way around that by being liberal with the calculation of the default budget. The budget also gets expanded by taking must haves (new roof) out of the operating budget and putting them in as separate warrant articles to make the budget look more conservative. If you like voting by mail for President, you'll love SB2.

[longislander]

Moultonborough has about 5,000 residents. I haven't checked this year, but usually has close to 4,000 registered voters. At a normal town meeting there's about 250-300 voters that show-up, if no rec.center on the warrant. With rec. center like what will come up in 2023, probably 500-700 voters for the first 2-3hours. After the rec.center/bond vote that must legally be voted on first, attendance will drop by @50% or more for the balance of the articles on the warrant.

The same years will have 800-1200 Tuesday voters. Tuesday voter turnout is always much greater than second session.

Which is more important? How many folks show-up for a meeting or how many actually vote! SB2 absentee votes would provide even more democracy by allowing them to vote on all articles. They can't in traditional. They pay taxes. Why not provide a vote.

Does your town have an "official budget committee" ? MoBo doesn't.

https://www.nhmunicipal.org/town-city-article/municipal-budget-committee-roles-and-responsibilities

"Default budget'' means the amount of the same appropriations as contained in the operating budget authorized for the previous year, reduced and increased, as the case may be, by debt service, contracts, and other obligations previously incurred or mandated by law, and reduced by one-time expenditures contained in the operating budget. “One-time expenditures” are appropriations not likely to recur in the succeeding budget.

https://www.nhmunicipal.org/town-city-article/default-budget-sb2-towns#:~:text=%22Default%20budget''%20means%20the, time%20expenditures%20contained%20in%20the

Capital expenditures, like a new roof, don't belong in the operating budget. They belong in capital reserve that has projected future costs.

If there was a way to confirm voter ID and guarantee vote integrity in mail-in ballots, I'd be all for it. However, I have no confidence it can be done. Towns can do so ... if they are well managed.

Towns and voters are different, however.

[John Mercier]

Absentee voting is voting by mail.

[longislander]

Absentee is voting by mail ... and does have safeguards. Must obtain ballot from the town clerk, checked by the town for voter registration, checked by the town moderator and town clerk after the election. Is anything 100% ...

Then again, maybe all the town officials are crooks!

A lot easier to falsify "in-person" voting, than by absentee ballot.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXIII/657/657-4.htm

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif3506/f/uploads/2022_-_absentee_ballot_application_-_state_5-22.pdf

Next ....

[fatlazyless]

Absentee voting is voting by mail.

A local, full time resident might have a medical appointment in Hanover or Boston on election day and they can vote their absentee ballot with the town clerk a day or two or three or four, earlier.

[longislander]

Absentee voting is voting by mail.

Based whose definition.

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference
Published November 3, 2022

https://www.dictionary.com/e/absentee-ballot-vs-mail-in-ballot/

[John Mercier]

By how we do it.

From your linK...

"An absentee ballot is a ballot used to cast an absentee vote, which is submitted, usually by mail, by a voter known as an absentee."
"When someone is approved to vote absentee, election officials mail the voter an absentee ballot, which they complete and sign, and return by mail or, under certain circumstances, fax"

[longislander]

Is this the link you mention.!

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference

[longislander]

Returning to the title of this thread ... HUB status in Moultonborough and
regarding the $.36/$1000 mentioned in the survey.

Found out from the source of the survey that the number is the last entry on the bond statement received by the source which is titled : FY-Est Tax Rate Inc.. Here's the last three columns (of 10) of a NH muni bond for MoBo 2022 Valuation $4,892,023,118 at 5.25% for 15 years

Fiscal yr. Total
Payment Assessed Valuation FY-Est Tax Rate Inc..
$356,085.38 $ 4,892,023,118 $0.07

My calculations seem to indicate the last number on the left is a ratio of Total Payments divided by Assessed Valuation:

($356,085.38/$4,892,023,118) X 1000 = $.072789, shortened to $ .07

Worst yet, they used the first entry (they said) which is interest only, no principal. The other columns have the interest and principal. The other columns each have a number for FY-Est Tax Rate Inc.. and seem to follow process of calculartion.

MoBo valuation this 2022 year $4,892,023,118; 2021 last year $3,943,560,976; difference $948,462,142. 24.1% Almost a billion dollars

The valuation on the bond is the same for all 15 years and does not change, not annually like our assessments and taxrate.

I'll let the reader dedcide what this has to do with "assessments" regarding the survey.

[John Mercier]

Is this the link you mention.!

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference

The quotes come from the link you posted.

[longislander]

What is it you don't understand?

Based whose definition.

Absentee Ballot vs. Mail-In Ballot: Know The Difference
Published November 3, 2022

https://www.dictionary.com/e/absentee-ballot-vs-mail-in-ballot/

Heading out for now ...
Let me know how I can help you understand.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Longislander, it sounds as though by their estimates, this HUB monstrosity will cost the taxpayer .07+/- per $1000 assessed value. Their figures do not take into account operating costs, which will be significant. Am I on the right track? Thanks.

[John Mercier]

What is it you don't understand?



Heading out for now ...
Let me know how I can help you understand.

I quoted your link...
Maybe you should have read it before posting it.

[phoenix]

We have all seen how almost everything has gone up and to assume that this price won't go up if it gets out to bid is wishful thinking . Also interest rates may go up. So, whatever the estimate presented will end up going up. We need a great turnout of no voters as i assume all those in favor will be at the town meeting

[John Mercier]

Longislander, it sounds as though by their estimates, this HUB monstrosity will cost the taxpayer .07+/- per $1000 assessed value. Their figures do not take into account operating costs, which will be significant. Am I on the right track? Thanks.

The 7 cents per thousand is the estimated annual operating cost for the first year.

[longislander]

Am I on the right track?

Just got back from Heath's. Making a stir-fry tonight.

Yes you are correct regarding the operating costs, they are not included. However, each of the 15 years has a different Y-Est Tax Rate Inc.., since the principal or interest has yearly change.The Hub estimate is $14,243,415 and the 2022 town valuation is $4,892,023,118.

I did two bonds, one, a Level Debt bond and the other for a Level Principal bond principal $14,243,415 at 5.25% interest for 15 years. I should say they are NHMBB, NH Municipal Bond Bank bonds, not mine. The calculation for what is the last column is mine, but the number is on the bond.

Here are the numbers from the last column of the Level Debt bond: the first year is .07 but is interest only. Year two is .27, the rest of the years are .28

Here are the numbers for the Level Principal bond: .07,.34, .33,.32,.31,.30,.29,28,.27,.26, 25,.24,.23, .22, .21, and two for last year .21,.20 (Feb & Aug.)


At the end of the 15years:
Level Debt bond: total Interest $6,692,400.02
Total payments for 15 years: $20,935,815.02

Level Principal bond:total interest $5,959,762.52
Total Payments for 15 years: $20,203,177.52.

Each year has a different total.

.07/1000 of $4,892,023,118 is $342,441 the interest only for the first year only, not what it will cost per year.
The $14,243,415 cost is 29% of the present town valuation of $4,892,023,118.

I won't post here the annual costs principal and interest for each for type of bond,but I have in the bonds in PDF format. Haven't tried to post a PDF yet.

The bond will probably be more because at the 12/15/22 select board meeting it was mentioned a number of $15 mllion was going to be used. Probably another million plus in the end.

This expense should show up annually in the budget (didn't say operating cost).

[longislander]

The 7 cents per thousand is the estimated annual operating cost for the first year.

No it's not. Operating costs aren't even the calculation. It is part of the building cost quote only.

The same contractor that did the $14,243,415 building estimate quoted $248,932 for total operating expense. If you believe that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell ya!

[longislander]

We have all seen how almost everything has gone up and to assume that this price won't go up if it gets out to bid is wishful thinking . Also interest rates may go up. So, whatever the estimate presented will end up going up. We need a great turnout of no voters as i assume all those in favor will be at the town meeting

Agree.

And please stick around for a vote on SB2, since the bond has to legally be one of the first warrant articles voted on at town meeting.

[longislander]

I quoted your link...
Maybe you should have read it before posting it.

No you didn't ... you quoted part of it, I suspect. I won't bother looking it up. I do read and understand the links I post. Ohhh ... that's right. You're the one that had trouble understanding "fixed" from "fixed income" when nobody else seemed to have the difficulty. Sometimes only God can help, presuming an acceptance that God exists ... not just in Google!

[John Mercier]

The portion all talk of ''mail''.
Fixed is not adjusted.

Like a ''fixed'' mortgage... the rate doesn't adjust.

SS is not fixed... it is adjusted.
And many times adjusted far beyond earned income.

It is why the kids say... ''OK Boomer''.

[longislander]

The portion all talk of ''mail''.
Fixed is not adjusted.

Like a ''fixed'' mortgage... the rate doesn't adjust.

SS is not fixed... it is adjusted.
And many times adjusted far beyond earned income.

It is why the kids say... ''OK Boomer''.



What the hell are you saying!

[pondguy]

"If you build it they will come":argue:

[John Mercier]

What the hell are you saying!

Really?
You don't know the difference between ''fixed'' and ''adjustable''?
You didn't know that an absentee voter registration or absentee vote in NH was most likely going to go through the mail?

Do you think a resident of Moultonborough working long hard hours to earn a living and seeing low wage increases is going to have sympathy for someone that just saw a bigger increase than they did?

It would be like may stating, woe is me... I watched my $7 million dollar portfolio go down to $6.5 million. The average person, even in Moultonborough, is not going to sympathize as my ''loss''.

The Millennials know they are getting the raw end of the deal because they are not on a ''fixed'' income...

[longislander]

You are so confused with your opinions ...

The portion all talk of ''mail''.
Fixed is not adjusted.

Like a ''fixed'' mortgage... the rate doesn't adjust.

SS is not fixed... it is adjusted.
And many times adjusted far beyond earned income.

It is why the kids say... ''OK Boomer''.

What the hell are you saying!


Now add...

Really?
You don't know the difference between ''fixed'' and ''adjustable''?
You didn't know that an absentee voter registration or absentee vote in NH was most likely going to go through the mail?

Do you think a resident of Moultonborough working long hard hours to earn a living and seeing low wage increases is going to have sympathy for someone that just saw a bigger increase than they did?

It would be like may stating, woe is me... I watched my $7 million dollar portfolio go down to $6.5 million. The average person, even in Moultonborough, is not going to sympathize as my ''loss''.

The Millennials know they are getting the raw end of the deal because they are not on a ''fixed'' income...



Repeat: What the hell are you saying?

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Getting back to my original question for longislander: are we assuming costs of $.36 + $.07 = $.43 per $1000 assessed value, to include operating expenses, such as staff salaries, utilities, insurance, etc., etc.? If so, a taxpayer with a property assessed at $1,000,000 would have an annual property tax increase of $430. Am I on the right track? So many unknowns, and this is so unnecessary!

[longislander]

Not trying to avoid the .$036/$1000 and $.06/$1000 but... maybe I am.

The survey says!:
"$0.36/$1000 of town assessed property value?"
"$0.06/$1000 of town assessed property value?"

$.36 + $.07 = $.43 per $1000 assessed value, Definitely no, since operating costs are not part of the bond and the false .07 for intetrest only in the first year is ... is.

I'd suggest taking a different path and use the MoBo Tax Rate Breakdown;
Here goes and hope my math is correct:

Year Total =Municipal +County+ Local Ed +State Ed
2022 $ 4.78 $ =1.25+ $ 0.80 +$ 1.76 +$ 0.97

2022
Town tax rate is 1.25
Total tax rate is 4.78

The 1.25 is derived from dividing the tax effort by valuation = tax rate

For municipal rate 2022 it is $6,144,066/$4,892,023,118 X 1000 = 1.25
For total tax rate 2022 it is $23,355,110/$4862,373,529 X1000 = 4.78

Using an Amortization calculator

$15,000,000 bond for 15years @ 5.25% interest yields $120,582/month X 12 months = $1,446,984 (one year) X 15 years = $21,704,760
https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/amortization-calculator/

Add $1,446,984 to $6,144,066 = $7,591050 divided by valuation $4,892,023,118 = $ X 1000 = 1.55 new muni tax rate

Add $1,446,984 to $23,355,110 = $24,802,094 divided by valuation $4,892,023,118 =5.07 new total tax rate


To find the tax increase multiply your assessment by 4.78/1000 then multiply your assessmnet by 5.07/1000 and subtract the higher number from the lower number and that will be the dollar increase (with these numbers).

In other words subtract the present 2022 tax from the new tax and difference is the cost for that year. The added bond cost will be applied to the annual appropriation.

Check: 1.55+.80+1.76+.97 = 5.08 (close enough after rounding) new Total tax rate

[longislander]

Using the difference in tax rates, my tax bill would go up 21.3% if it had been done for this year.

[tummyman]

In my opinion, it might be good for this blog to get back to the real topic...the HUB instead of debating absentee voting that would not apply to this project. Just saying...

[longislander]

Just finished supper (stir-fry) and took another look at my calculation for my assessment. I must have been dazed before supper with the calcualtions. My bill would come in at an increase of 6.09% of the 2022 tax bill, not 21.3%.

:cheers:

[Sue Doe-Nym]

I am not sure of your calculations, but don’t forget the 13%+/- rebate we got from the town in 2022 for tax overpayments returned to the taxpayers. If you figure that 13% + your 7%, the amount is roughly your original amount. Don’t forget….that tax rebate was a one time event.

[longislander]

The $1.8 million returned to the taxpayers was what brought the rate down to $4.78/$1000. That was part of the unassigned funds and the select board still had enough money for the 12.5% that is supposed to be kept for unexpected expense, according to town policy #32. I was part of that debate at the select board meeting, arguing for returning the $1.8 mllion to the taxpayers. Some of the 5 select board members wanted to put into capital reserves. One of the capital reserve funds is CR148. It happens to be the capital reserve fund for a Community/recreation center! The board vote was 3-2 to give back the $1.8 miillion to the taxpayers. Yes there are strong Hub supporters on the select board.

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sites/g/files/vyhlif3506/f/uploads/32_fundbalance2015.pdf

[longislander]

Sue Doe-Nym

a property assessed at $1,000,000

$1,000,000 X $.00478 = $4780
$1,000,000 X $.00507 = $5070

$5070 - $4780 = $290


$290 is what percent of $4780
$290 = y/100 X $4780
6.1% = Y or the percentage increase in the 2022 tax bill
or
29000 divided by 4780 = 6.1

[fatlazyless]

North Conway NH ..... www.northconwaycommunitycenter.org/our-facility ..... has a community center which opened on November 13, 2016.

"After twelve years of planning, the dream became a reality!" ... :patriot:

[John Mercier]

North Conway NH ..... www.northconwaycommunitycenter.org/our-facility ..... has a community center which opened on November 13, 2016.

"After twelve years of planning, the dream became a reality!" ... :patriot:
Each community is different.

[phoenix]

FLL what no pool ?

[TheProfessor]

Note that the gymnasium at the Meredith Complex cannot be used for any official organized sports such as basketball.

Wrong type of flooring material.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

My point in all this was to try and get a general idea of the tax impact on our residents, and there are so many unknowns here….but this much I do know….this is a very ambitious and expensive project for a town the size of moultonborough, and the thought of pouring this much money into something that will undoubtedly be underutilized once the excitement wears off….and the costs will continue indefinitely. This whole thing reminds me of the proverbial dead horse: “when the horse is dead, GET OFF!” The proponents just won’t get off!