Lake Daytime Speed Limit

[tummyman]

Here is a new one to chew on....

An alert came out today from NH Lakes regarding legislation on rescinding the current daytime boat speed limit. New bill...HB1424 is set for a hearing next week to eliminate the daytime boat speed limit in its entirety. See below for info:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dear Valued Members and Friends of the Lake,

We have received notice that the public hearing for HB1424: relative to the speed limit for watercraft on Lake Winnipesaukee, will be set for February 22, 2022 at 1pm. The meeting will be in the large Representatives Hall which is safer for social distancing.

House Bill 1424 proposes to overturn the daytime boating speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee. It is not too late for you to use your voice in opposition of this bill.

The increase in boating as a popular recreational activity coupled with the increased desirability to live and play in the Lakes Region, suggest that removing the speed limit could have severe consequences to public safety. For over a decade, the law has proven effective in discouraging reckless speeding. We need your help to keep the current speed limit law in place with NO changes because it is still effective.

If you do testify, we encourage you to include your stance on not amending this bill relative for The Broads. The location known as the Broads is the largest span of open water on Lake Winnipesaukee and is known for extremely hazardous conditions on days with inclement weather and high winds.

If the current speed limit law is overturned it would be a monumental and expensive effort to recover. We urge you to oppose this new legislation by taking the following actions:

1.) Contact the House Transportation Committee Members (See Button Below)
Write an email, send a letter or make a call to committee members explaining why the current speed limit is appropriate and why the law should not be changed.
An emphasis on safety concerns with anecdotes of personal/family boating experiences should be included to support your opposition to HB 1424.
Click the button below for contact information
2.) Testify and Sign Up in Opposition of HB 1424 at the Public Hearing
You are welcome to attend the public hearing and give public testimony.
Alternatively, you can CLICK HERE to submit your opposition through the NH House of Representatives Website. The website allows you to indicate your position and upload your remote testimony. If you choose to upload a remote testimony, your testimony will be publicly available here.
Step One: Click Link Above for Remote Testimony
Step Two: Fill Out Information and Select Date of Hearing (2/22/2022)
Step Three: Select Committee (Transportation)
Step Four: Select Bill (HB 1424)
Step Five: Select I am: (Member of the Public)
Step Six: Select who you are representing
Step Seven: Indicate your position
Step Eight: Upload Remote Testimony (optional)
Your voice counts! Please contact the NH House Transportation Committee Members now to help ensure that Lake Winnipesaukee remains a safe and enjoyable recreational experience for all.

Thank you.
Pat Tarpey, President
Lake Winnipesaukee Association

To submit written comments, mail to:
HouseTransportationCommittee@leg.state.nh.us

[webmaster]

Some discussion from last November:

https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?p=364685

[chachee52]

So they want the speed limit everywhere except the Broads? Or including the Broads too?
I was always a fan of let the unlimited speed on the Broads even back when it first got put on the books. And I don't own a boat that can exceed 45 so it has nothing to do with me wanting to go that fast.

[lakewinnie]

AN ACT relative to the speed limit for watercraft on Lake Winnipesaukee.


The proposed House Bill reads as follows:

"Be it Enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Court convened:

1 Speed Limits; Lake Winnipesaukee. RSA 270-D:2, X(b) is repealed and reenacted to read as follows:

(b) Where no hazard exists that requires lower speed for compliance with subparagraph (a), the speed of any vessel in excess of 30 miles per hour during the period from 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise shall be prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable or prudent and that it is unlawful.

2 Effective Date. This act shall take effect January 1, 2023."

Hard to imagine this gaining any legislative traction.

[Senter Cove Guy]

...and go as fast as you want on the water in the daytime.

It's time for the boating speed limit to Die!

[Woodsy]

Not that this needs to be rehashed again...

I think the 45MPH limit should be lifted.... Especially in the Broads where visibility is measured in MILES! The SL does nothing to improve safety (no daytime accidents where speed was a factor), and it is rarely if ever enforced.

I would rather see the already short staffed MP spend their time enforcing the myriad of other violations (such as ROW and no wake) that occur on a daily basis!

I specifically didn't mention the 150" rule as IMHO, unless they are danger close (within 50') I really don't worry about it.

Woodsy

[John Mercier]

At 50' what is the distance the vessel would travel when throttle was cut and the vessel allowed to drift forward?

[John Mercier]

AN ACT relative to the speed limit for watercraft on Lake Winnipesaukee.


The proposed House Bill reads as follows:

"Be it Enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Court convened:

1 Speed Limits; Lake Winnipesaukee. RSA 270-D:2, X(b) is repealed and reenacted to read as follows:

(b) Where no hazard exists that requires lower speed for compliance with subparagraph (a), the speed of any vessel in excess of 30 miles per hour during the period from 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise shall be prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable or prudent and that it is unlawful.

2 Effective Date. This act shall take effect January 1, 2023."

Hard to imagine this gaining any legislative traction.

It could. This item may see increases in valuations of lakefront properties as individuals with higher incomes might feel that 45mph in all situations is imprudent and costing them what they consider valuable time - sort of like sitting in a traffic jam; the vehicles are moving but slower than they want.

[Descant]

To my knowledge, NH is the only state with a 150' boat to boat 150' rule. It does not gain us anything except a lot of jibber jabber on places like this forum. Certainly not an advanced safety record compared to other states. Mostly unenforced, especially on lakes less than 10,000 acres. Time for it to go.

[TiltonBB]

To my knowledge, NH is the only state with a 150' boat to boat 150' rule. It does not gain us anything except a lot of jibber jabber on places like this forum. Certainly not an advanced safety record compared to other states. Mostly unenforced, especially on lakes less than 10,000 acres. Time for it to go.

There are over 1 million boats registered in Florida and many more nice boating days than New Hampshire has. There is no speed limit, and no 150 foot rule, and there does not seem to be a safety problem.

Since 2007 I have had a boat in Florida and use it often during the winter. People in other boats regularly pass by 50 feet away, sometimes 25 feet away. You get used to it and it is no big deal. Would I prefer that they stay a little further away? Sure, but it is no big deal if they don't.

We need to get back to "Live Free or Die"

[John Mercier]

Really? So listen to the loud music and suck it up.

[BroadHopper]

Yet weekends during seasons are the craziest most dangerous time to boat in NH. I've boats in Maine, Massachusetts, and VT as well as Florida and lakes along the Colorado River. I actually feel safer boating outside of NH.

So how do 150' and speed limits laws make the lakes safer? It doesn't. What will make the lake safer is enforcing common sense into these people and revoking their rights to operate rather than slapping them with warnings and or small fines.

[Woodsy]

At 50' what is the distance the vessel would travel when throttle was cut and the vessel allowed to drift forward?

What does it matter how far a boat drifts after the throttle is chopped? This is not a collision situation or a ROW violation.

Woodsy

[John Mercier]

With no speed limit and no safe zone as being proposed on this forum, I would presume that the concern to an open non-motorized craft would be a great deal enhanced.
If a boat approached too quickly and veered away sharply at speed, it could overturn or swamp them.

[phoenix]

Wow you could get across the broads in two minutes faster. I thought this issue was dead

[John Mercier]

It will never be.
I think that people don't realize that the population in the county and even more so the lakes' usage is going to continue to grow... maybe faster than in recent history.
I see a day not to distant than any property with a view of the lake will be built out. That property like that on Winni will fetch over one million just for a view, and lake frontage will be measured in multiple millions.
When people have that much money invested into something, they usually are not going to be highly concerned with those that have to tow their boat to the lake and use a public launch... much less anyone that is in a non-motorized craft.

They would be paying tens of thousands in property taxes to low cost municipalities like Moultonborough to maybe more than the average household income to those in municipalities like Laconia.

[Riviera]

So how do 150' and speed limits laws make the lakes safer? It doesn't.

Speed limits and the 150’ rule probably make the lake “somewhat” safer, because both restrictions provide for increased reaction times that allow for accident avoidance in a few limited situations. Whether or not the increased reaction times provides a statistically significant improvement in safety is debatable

I also boat in FL, where 25 mph speed limits are common in congested areas, such as in tighter areas of the inter-coastal waterway. In more open areas, there are no speed limits. There is no 150’ rule, which would be nearly impossible to implement in the inter-coastal, due to the narrow dredged channels, and the significant quantity of boat traffic. I don’t feel any safer in either boating location.

In my opinion, the speed limits in NH were brought about as a result of boat noise, as opposed to boat speeds. In the 80’s, there was a proliferation of “go fast” boats with loud through hull exhausts. There was (is) a perception of speed associated with the noise, and the noise was disturbing to those who enjoyed the peaceful nature of the lake. Authorities found it hard to enforce noise ordinances, which ultimately (in my opinion) brought about the speed limit legislation. I’ll bet most people who supported speed limits would have been just as happy, if not happier, if boats were quieter, as opposed to slower.

Part of the problem is that people get so passionate about these issues, that they tend to argue for the extremes. If I were king, I’d implement the following rules, in an effort to maximize everybody’s enjoyment of the lake:

1. Ban through hull exhaust on any boat sold within one year post legislation. There is no reason that one boaters preference for loud noise should impact everybody within ear shot of that noise. Existing through hull exhausts could be grandfathered, but only if they are on a boat manufactured pre-legislation, and only if they note the through hull exhaust on their registration form, so as to avoid post legislative conversions.

2. Keep the 150’ rule. It’s too controversial an issue to change, and everybody has enjoyed the lake with the rule in effect for many years. It’s not that big a deal to endeavor to keep your distance from other boats, and it probably aids in maximizing the enjoyment of those boaters who operate at slower speeds, or in smaller vessels.

3. Keep the 45 mph speed limit on most of the lake, but eliminate the speed limit in the Broads. 45 mph is fast enough in most of the bays, where there tends to be more boat congestion. In the Broads, there is plenty of room, and it would allow those with faster boats to traverse the lake faster, and allow a place for them to enjoy some of the exhilaration of traveling at a higher rate of speed.

Aside from the thru hull issue, this doesn’t change much from the status quo. In reality, the 150 foot rule, and the speed limit, are difficult for marine patrol to enforce, due to the challenges of definitively determining a violation. If there was a bit of give and take on both sides, I think there would be less bickering about the rules, and more enjoyment for everybody.

But, I’m not a king, and I don’t get to make the rules. Hopefully those who do make the rules will try to see both sides of these issues, and legislate something that makes sense.

[John Mercier]

Exhaust noise is covered under a different RSA.

[Riviera]

Exhaust noise is covered under a different RSA.

Correct. I believe the law was put in place in the 80’s. The problem was (is) that the law allows for above water exhaust if there is a “muffling device”. The muffling device is undefined, so boaters were arguing that the flappers on the pipes were “muffling devices”, even though they did little or nothing to mitigate the sound. They also allowed switchable exhausts, so it was impossible to determine if an offending device was on, or not, when a boat was stopped for a noise violation. Further, it was so difficult to accurately determine a methodology to measure the sound, that marine patrol gave up trying to enforce the law.

If the goal is to make the boat quiet, the exhaust needs to be underwater when the boat is running. The original intent was good. The wording was poor.

I think its better now than it was in the 80’s, but in my opinion, there are far too many obnoxiously load boats out there, that do not meet the spirit or intent of the law.

[8gv]

Many "captains" operate their boats on Winni in an unsafe manner.

There are not enough water cops to deal with all that goes on.

If something bad is going to happen, it happening at a slower speed will likely result in a less bad outcome.

I believe:

There are boaters that do not exceed the current limit.

There are boaters who exceed the limit by 10-20%.

There are boaters that exceed the limit by a much larger margin.

If there is no limit, I expect at least two if not all three of the groups above to go faster.

Consider highway driving.

If the limit is 55 there are a few going that speed but most are going faster with some going much faster.

In a 70 zone it's the same but faster.

Would you want to have NO speed limit on I93?

If that were the case, what would you expect for speeds and speed differentials?

Without naming names, I'll just suggest that some drivers have a daily white knuckle, dog eat dog commute to work.

They are the ones who aggressively assert themselves on your rear bumper as they rush to their calming lake retreat.

"They" operate their boats the same way.

Keep the speed limit.

[Senter Cove Guy]

Many "captains" operate their boats on Winni in an unsafe manner.

There are not enough water cops to deal with all that goes on.

If something bad is going to happen, it happening at a slower speed will likely result in a less bad outcome.

I believe:

There are boaters that do not exceed the current limit.

There are boaters who exceed the limit by 10-20%.

There are boaters that exceed the limit by a much larger margin.

If there is no limit, I expect at least two if not all three of the groups above to go faster.

Consider highway driving.

If the limit is 55 there are a few going that speed but most are going faster with some going much faster.

In a 70 zone it's the same but faster.

Would you want to have NO speed limit on I93?

If that were the case, what would you expect for speeds and speed differentials?

Without naming names, I'll just suggest that some drivers have a daily white knuckle, dog eat dog commute to work.

They are the ones who aggressively assert themselves on your rear bumper as they rush to their calming lake retreat.

"They" operate their boats the same way.

Keep the speed limit.

You are comparing apples and oranges.
Die speedlimit, Die!

[TiltonBB]

In the 80's the Marine Patrol would station a boat in the Weirs Channel near the southern end of the no wake zone. They had a second boat with a decibel meter set up about 1/2 mile south in Paugus Bay. That boat would set out a couple of floats about 30 feet apart.

When the Marine Patrol Officer in the Channel found a boat that he felt might be too loud he directed them to go through the markers at cruising speed while their sound output was measured.

I had a friend who tried to quiet his boat down to the point that after adding baffles he hung truck mud flap off of the swim platform down to the water. The boat was still too loud and he had to take it off of the lake.

To their credit, the Marine Patrol allowed him several "free passes" after he did all the work on it to see if it was quiet enough.

[chachee52]

If I remember correctly, when the speed limit was put into affect, the chief of MP at that time did say that he was against the speed limit. Mostly because he said that less than 1% of boating accidents in NH had to do with speed. there were other reasons.
I too am, and was back in the day, on the side of leave the Broads no speed limit and keep the bays with a limit.
And there are are roads in the North West where my friend was stationed that had speed that said "at your own risk". And I'm sorry, but 93 is pretty much no speed limit at times. :laugh:
Also when I was younger, there were way more MP boats on the water and they did pull people over for the 150' rule. I witnessed it many times.
Everyone isn't going to be happy with any rule that anyone suggests. This is one reason I don't live in a Condo. I might agree with a rule but don't tell me that I can't do it :D

[tis]

In the 80's the Marine Patrol would station a boat in the Weirs Channel near the southern end of the no wake zone. They had a second boat with a decibel meter set up about 1/2 mile south in Paugus Bay. That boat would set out a couple of floats about 30 feet apart.

When the Marine Patrol Officer in the Channel found a boat that he felt might be too loud he directed them to go through the markers at cruising speed while their sound output was measured.

I had a friend who tried to quiet his boat down to the point that after adding baffles he hung truck mud flap off of the swim platform down to the water. The boat was still too loud and he had to take it off of the lake.

To their credit, the Marine Patrol allowed him several "free passes" after he did all the work on it to see if it was quiet enough.

We were "invited" to take our boat to Timber Island to be tested on a Sunday morning. Once we were stopped the boat could not be on the lake until we passed the test. In the meantime we had work done on it to try to make it quieter so we could pass the test. We flunked. After a few tries and about 6 or 7 thousand dollars we finally passed -but just barely. At that time I don't think the marinas really knew what to do to quiet them. I loved that boat, it was one of my favorite ever boats. And also at that time "Captain's Call" ( the ability to switch between loud and quiet) was illegal. Now I am pretty sure it is legal.

[fatlazyless]

And I'm sorry, but 93 is pretty much no speed limit at times. :laugh:

NH Office of Highway Safety .... https://twitter.com/nh_ohs/status/1480936528868261888

[chachee52]

NH Office of Highway Safety .... https://twitter.com/nh_ohs/status/1480936528868261888

Never said that it didn't. Just sharing my opinion that on 93 people drive whatever they want anyway. Hence I put the laughing emoji on it. SenterCoveGuy said " what if 93 had no speed limit". Got passed the other day while I was going 75 keeping up with traffic like I was going about 20 mph.

[John Mercier]

If I remember correctly, when the speed limit was put into affect, the chief of MP at that time did say that he was against the speed limit. Mostly because he said that less than 1% of boating accidents in NH had to do with speed. there were other reasons.
I too am, and was back in the day, on the side of leave the Broads no speed limit and keep the bays with a limit.
And there are are roads in the North West where my friend was stationed that had speed that said "at your own risk". And I'm sorry, but 93 is pretty much no speed limit at times. :laugh:
Also when I was younger, there were way more MP boats on the water and they did pull people over for the 150' rule. I witnessed it many times.
Everyone isn't going to be happy with any rule that anyone suggests. This is one reason I don't live in a Condo. I might agree with a rule but don't tell me that I can't do it :DTim (Captain of MP) was opposed because the system is not accurate unless being approached or following a vessel at a specific angle. That is much different than the highway or trails where a LEO or CO can position themselves more easily to the angle of oncoming traffic.

[chachee52]

Tim (Captain of MP) was opposed because the system is not accurate unless being approached or following a vessel at a specific angle. That is much different than the highway or trails where a LEO or CO can position themselves more easily to the angle of oncoming traffic.

That was "one of the other reasons". Didn't want to add another aspect to the law in this discussion. Was trying to keep it to the speed. But yes, radar gun are almost useless on the water. Also the initial "testing" time frame was significantly decreased before they passed the bill.

[John Mercier]

That was his main reason. It is the same reason that the Major (Tim Acerno) of F&G gave against snowmobile/OHRV speed limits on frozen lakes/ponds.

They have brakes and don't create a wake, unlike boats, and still have the same setbacks from other objects.

[sunset on the dock]

That was "one of the other reasons". Didn't want to add another aspect to the law in this discussion. Was trying to keep it to the speed. But yes, radar gun are almost useless on the water. Also the initial "testing" time frame was significantly decreased before they passed the bill.

There were speed limits on our roads before there was radar. Just because enforcement may be more difficult on the water is no reason to throw out the speed limit in its entirety. Most people obey the law. Ditto just because some people pass you when driving 75 MPH on 93 is no reason to allow unlimited speeds on our highways.

As far as the Broads and unlimited speeds...this was shot down 11 years ago in Concord as well. It's the hub of the lake where people travel to get to island homes or from one port to another. Fishermen, sailors (including kids learning to sail with the LWSA), family boaters are all going in different directions.

Given the # of businesses and high profile organizations opposing HB 1424 this bill will be laughed right out of the State House. HB 1424 is nutz.

Need another reason to keep the speed limits on the lake and Broads: per Lake Winni Assoc. email sent out to its 1000 members last week: "The number of people obtaining their boat license has increased from 6500 in 2019 to over 30,000 in 2020. This represents almost a 500% increase in new and inexperienced boaters on our lakes."
And NH boat registrations have increased 14.7 % since 2013.

[Seaplane Pilot]

There were speed limits on our roads before there was radar. Just because enforcement may be more difficult on the water is no reason to throw out the speed limit in its entirety. Most people obey the law. Ditto just because some people pass you when driving 75 MPH on 93 is no reason to allow unlimited speeds on our highways.

As far as the Broads and unlimited speeds...this was shot down 11 years ago in Concord as well. It's the hub of the lake where people travel to get to island homes or from one port to another. Fishermen, sailors (including kids learning to sail with the LWSA), family boaters are all going in different directions.

Given the # of businesses and high profile organizations opposing HB 1424 this bill will be laughed right out of the State House. HB 1424 is nutz.

Need another reason to keep the speed limits on the lake and Broads: per Lake Winni Assoc. email sent out to its 1000 members last week: "The number of people obtaining their boat license has increased from 6500 in 2019 to over 30,000 in 2020. This represents almost a 500% increase in new and inexperienced boaters on our lakes."
And NH boat registrations have increased 14.7 % since 2013.

Flush the speed limit down the toilet where it belongs.

[John Mercier]

Which would mean that even if they changed it... more than likely they would need to change it back.

The lakes... especially Winnipesaukee... is going to draw a lot more people and homes to it over the next decade. I can't even imagine how F&G is going to handle the public demand for launch sites.

[Winilyme]

Flush the speed limit down the toilet where it belongs.

Such a sophisticated comment.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Such a sophisticated comment.

We’ll excuse me, you elitist snob. How about “Repeal the speed limit law, and dispose of it in the repealed law file.” Does that live up to your sophisticated standards?

[thinkxingu]

We’ll excuse me, you elitist snob. How about “Repeal the speed limit law, and dispose of it in the repealed law file”. Does that live up to your sophisticated standards?With punctuation flaws like that, I should hope not. I mean, we're in America—put the period INSIDE the quotation marks, you heathen!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[8gv]

Now that we have settled the lake speed limit issue can we please move on to more pressing items?

It drives me nuts when a singular subject is conjugated as if it were plural!

Also, let's not conjugate with the noun found in a prepositional phrase.

It is not the subject.

Sheesh!

Thank you!

:D

[gillygirl]

Now that we have settled the lake speed limit issue can we please move on to more pressing items?

It drives me nuts when a singular subject is conjugated as if it were plural!

Also, let's not conjugate with the noun found in a prepositional phrase.

It is not the subject.

Sheesh!

Thank you!

:DSum, es, est, sumis, estis, sunt.

Sorry, I saw the word conjugate and my Latin teacher entered my body.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[chachee52]

There were speed limits on our roads before there was radar. Just because enforcement may be more difficult on the water is no reason to throw out the speed limit in its entirety. Most people obey the law. Ditto just because some people pass you when driving 75 MPH on 93 is no reason to allow unlimited speeds on our highways.

As far as the Broads and unlimited speeds...this was shot down 11 years ago in Concord as well. It's the hub of the lake where people travel to get to island homes or from one port to another. Fishermen, sailors (including kids learning to sail with the LWSA), family boaters are all going in different directions.

Given the # of businesses and high profile organizations opposing HB 1424 this bill will be laughed right out of the State House. HB 1424 is nutz.

Need another reason to keep the speed limits on the lake and Broads: per Lake Winni Assoc. email sent out to its 1000 members last week: "The number of people obtaining their boat license has increased from 6500 in 2019 to over 30,000 in 2020. This represents almost a 500% increase in new and inexperienced boaters on our lakes."
And NH boat registrations have increased 14.7 % since 2013.

And there was no speed limit on the lake for years as well, and I don't have the stats but there are also more cars on the road as well and the speed limit on most highways have increased as well.

I've said it so many times. one rule about anything is never going to please everyone. But again if > 1% of boat accidents had to do with speed when the law went into affect, but I would imagine that car accidents due to speed is higher.

Either way, speed limit or not, my boat doesn't do 45 so it doesn't effect me, but it will with the 600 hp pontoon boat that was at the boat show this week!!!:eek:

[TiltonBB]

Tim (Captain of MP) was opposed because the system is not accurate unless being approached or following a vessel at a specific angle. That is much different than the highway or trails where a LEO or CO can position themselves more easily to the angle of oncoming traffic.

Marine Patrol Director David Barrett, Captain Dunleavy's boss, opposed the speed limit law in 2005.

The head of the state agency that would have to enforce the limits is opposed. Marine Patrol Director David Barrett said the law would be unenforceable. He also said supporters are pushing the law to get rid of high-performance speed boats.

"This is feel-good legislation," Barrett said. "The proponents are being disingenuous. This is exclusionary and being used to get rid of a kind of boat they don't like."

Although David Barrett has passed away (2011) he was right in 2005, and remains right today.

[sunset on the dock]

Hmmm...in 2011 80% of NH house voted in favor of the speed limit with an even higher percentage from reps representing towns that border the lake. Now with more boats registered in NH and a 500% increase in boating licenses I wonder how the vote will go this time?!

[FlyingScot]

"This is feel-good legislation," Barrett said.[/B] "The proponents are being disingenuous. This is exclusionary and being used to get rid of a kind of boat they don't like."

Although David Barrett has passed away (2011) he was right in 2005, and remains right today.

Well, he can't really be right about both of these points at once, but does offer some insight. If it's "feel-good legislation" that means it does nothing. If it's "getting rid of a kind of boat they don't like", I agree--it has gotten rid of a large number of very load boats--as posted above.

Like so many issues on the lake--it is a small number of insensitive jerks that create the demand for more rules. When your boat can be heard a mile away, or your wake is creating a washing machine effect in a cove because you're circling 20X, you're creating the support for more legislation

[John Mercier]

I don't think it was loud boats. Exhaust regulation would have done that.
Common property requires them to protect the interests of even the lightest user.
At 150 feet, wouldn't a faster boat create more of a disrupting wake to non-motorized users/etc?

Noise even from a static source would be more of the first regulation.
But I think speed and distance is more about the wake and reaction time.

[Jdarby]

Need another reason to keep the speed limits on the lake and Broads: per Lake Winni Assoc. email sent out to its 1000 members last week: "The number of people obtaining their boat license has increased from 6500 in 2019 to over 30,000 in 2020. This represents almost a 500% increase in new and inexperienced boaters on our lakes."
And NH boat registrations have increased 14.7 % since 2013.


This is exactly my concern with removing the limit. The lack of experience was obvious on the water last summer. Sure, every summer you have the clueless boat renters but it seemed far worse this last season. I just think the timing for this is bad with that variable in play.



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[lakewinnie]

This is exactly my concern with removing the limit. The lack of experience was obvious on the water last summer. Sure, every summer you have the clueless boat renters but it seemed far worse this last season. I just think the timing for this is bad with that variable in play.



Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

I was opposed to the speed limit back when the law passed. I never thought it was about safety - it was my understanding that the real culprit in most fatal accidents had been alcohol.

Today, I'm more on-the-fence. I did see a lot more idiots on the lake these past few summers compared to 12-14 years ago. Although, at the same time, I don't recall the recent new wave of boaters going at excessive speeds. My recent experience is that many of these idiots do not know the rules of the road.

[John Mercier]

Because the one item they think they remember is the speed limit.
Imagine them at a faster pace.

[Patofnaud]

Too many laws.

Just have one law, a "do not be stupid " law, and repeal the dozens of other laws that all come down to stopping folks from being stupid.

You cut someone off, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
You swamp someone, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
You fly through an NWZ, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
You ride on the swim platform, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
You take your dark green/black kayak/canoe way offshore on a Saturday afternoon, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
Etc,,,

And actually, a planning hull when going faster makes LESS wake/erosion than one plowing along. Speed = better. Just don't do it when it would be a stupid thing to do.

[Descant]

Too many laws.

Just have one law, a "do not be stupid " law, and repeal the dozens of other laws that all come down to stopping folks from being stupid.

You cut someone off, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
You swamp someone, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
You fly through an NWZ, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
You ride on the swim platform, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
You take your dark green/black kayak/canoe way offshore on a Saturday afternoon, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
Etc,,,

And actually, a planning hull when going faster makes LESS wake/erosion than one plowing along. Speed = better. Just don't do it when it would be a stupid thing to do.

Without looking it up, isn't that USCG rule 6? Only they use the word "reasonable".

[Patofnaud]

You are correct sir. Been a long time since I dipped a prop in the salty stuff.

Rule 6 - Safe Speed
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

Nice and simple. A lot simpler than RSA's abc123, xyz234, 5.89 and 2.4 but only during certain times if maintaining proper steerage unless the sun is in your eyes 30 mins before sunset. (/sarcasm)

[John Mercier]

Too many laws.

Just have one law, a "do not be stupid " law, and repeal the dozens of other laws that all come down to stopping folks from being stupid.

You cut someone off, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
You swamp someone, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
You fly through an NWZ, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
You ride on the swim platform, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
You take your dark green/black kayak/canoe way offshore on a Saturday afternoon, you're stupid, here's your ticket.
Etc,,,

And actually, a planning hull when going faster makes LESS wake/erosion than one plowing along. Speed = better. Just don't do it when it would be a stupid thing to do.Daytime Speed Limit is 45 mph. You are saying that boats don't plane at that speed?

[Patofnaud]

Daytime Speed Limit is 45 mph. You are saying that boats don't plane at that speed?

No, where did you see that? I said faster = less wake.

[Dick]

At 150 feet, wouldn't a faster boat create more of a disrupting wake to non-motorized users/etc?

Actually, the opposite is true. For example, bass boats make a small wake when on
plane. Big cruisers plowing along at slow speeds and wake boats generate very big wakes

[Woodsy]

I don't think it was loud boats. Exhaust regulation would have done that.
Common property requires them to protect the interests of even the lightest user.
At 150 feet, wouldn't a faster boat create more of a disrupting wake to non-motorized users/etc?

When it comes to planing hulls, boat wakes are function of water displacement & mass... the faster a boat goes the less mass is in the water, the less mass in the water, the less energy the wake has to cause damage.

Woodsy

[John Mercier]

No, where did you see that? I said faster = less wake.

I presume that whether a boat is traveling at 45 mph or at 75 mph it would be roughly on plane and create about the same wake although with a different wave speed... the displacement being roughly the same.

The distance the wave travels, and the speed that it travels, is what allows the second craft to take action to navigate the disruption in the surface.

[John Mercier]

When it comes to planing hulls, boat wakes are function of water displacement & mass... the faster a boat goes the less mass is in the water, the less mass in the water, the less energy the wake has to cause damage.

Woodsy
After a certain speed... the same amount of displacement will occur regardless. It would never get to the point that no mass was in the water.

[John Mercier]

In the end, I think they will legislate whatever needs to be changed to increase the property values surrounding the lake. It shifts more of the tax burden toward lake properties... and that is supported by the greatest number of constituents.

The recent build-out of certain parcels, along with the faster increase in valuation of certain areas, has help to keep taxation in other parts more suppressed.

[Woodsy]

After a certain speed... the same amount of displacement will occur regardless. It would never get to the point that no mass was in the water.

You do not understand how planing hulls work... while there will be always be "some" mass in the water, at speed it is a fractional amount of the total boat weight/displacement.

Boats with planing hulls are designed to rise up and glide on top of the water when enough power is supplied. These boats may operate like displacement hulls when at rest or at slow speeds but climb toward the surface of the water as they move faster.

Boats with planing hulls can skim along at high speed, riding almost on top of the water rather than pushing it aside. The faster a planing hull goes in the water.. the less water is displaced by the mass of the boat. The less boat in the water, the less energy the boat wake has.

Think of a flat stone skipping across the top of the water...

Woodsy

[Dick]

What a shame that the sound system used in Representatives Hall was so poor that most of us could not hear/understand the speakers.
Further, did it seem to you that the House Transportation representatives were disengaged . . .didn't want to be there.

[John Mercier]

You do not understand how planing hulls work... while there will be always be "some" mass in the water, at speed it is a fractional amount of the total boat weight/displacement.

Boats with planing hulls are designed to rise up and glide on top of the water when enough power is supplied. These boats may operate like displacement hulls when at rest or at slow speeds but climb toward the surface of the water as they move faster.

Boats with planing hulls can skim along at high speed, riding almost on top of the water rather than pushing it aside. The faster a planing hull goes in the water.. the less water is displaced by the mass of the boat. The less boat in the water, the less energy the boat wake has.

Think of a flat stone skipping across the top of the water...

WoodsyI do understand the inverse function of displacement and speed. That is why I question wave speed. A higher wave speed... even if the wave has a lower amplitude... results in a greater conservation of kinetic energy over a specified distance. That is what the scientific studies showed.
The faster boat is displacing less water mass at a higher rate of speed.

[John Mercier]

Actually, the opposite is true. For example, bass boats make a small wake when on
plane. Big cruisers plowing along at slow speeds and wake boats generate very big wakes
Again that is amplitude of the wave...

[Woodsy]

I do understand the inverse function of displacement and speed. That is why I question wave speed. A higher wave speed... even if the wave has a lower amplitude... results in a greater conservation of kinetic energy over a specified distance. That is what the scientific studies showed.
The faster boat is displacing less water mass at a higher rate of speed.

You are correct in that the faster boat (on plane) is displacing far less water at a higher rate of speed than it would at a slower speed. It is also transferring far less energy to the water.

The planing hull design is where the relationships change. Planing hulls are designed to give little resistance to the water and take advantage of hydrodynamic lifting.

The hydrodynamic lift of the hull design is what changes the wave form of the wake. When on plane there is very little displacement (relative to size & mass) very little drag (mostly the drives) and thus very little energy transferred to the water in the form of a wake. The energy is instead expended as speed.

The wake of boat on plane has very little energy transferred from the hull, so the amplitude is low, wave energy is low, and wake dissipates very quickly.

Woodsy

[John Mercier]

But it is increasing wave speed.
That is what all the studies that they do is telling them.

They aren't slowing the rate of speed near shore just because they feel like it.

[Woodsy]

But it is increasing wave speed.
That is what all the studies that they do is telling them.

They aren't slowing the rate of speed near shore just because they feel like it.

All functions of a wake created by a boat are the result of an energy transfer. This energy transfer is directly related to boat displacement. The amount of energy in a wave depends on its height and wavelength as well as the distance over which it breaks. Given equal wavelengths, a wave with greater amplitude will release more energy when it falls back to sea level than a wave of lesser amplitude. The speed of the waves has little to do with this.

A boat on plane displaces very little water and thus transmits very little energy to the water. The low energy waves dissipate quickly. Assuming the boat on plane maintains 150' off the shoreline (per the law) by the time the wake reaches the shore there is little energy left.

This wave energy discussion is the crux of all the proposed wakeboat rules.

Woodsy

[The Real BigGuy]

Thanks Woodsy. You did a great job of explaining the wake phenomenon


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[John Mercier]

All functions of a wake created by a boat are the result of an energy transfer. This energy transfer is directly related to boat displacement. The amount of energy in a wave depends on its height and wavelength as well as the distance over which it breaks. Given equal wavelengths, a wave with greater amplitude will release more energy when it falls back to sea level than a wave of lesser amplitude. The speed of the waves has little to do with this.

A boat on plane displaces very little water and thus transmits very little energy to the water. The low energy waves dissipate quickly. Assuming the boat on plane maintains 150' off the shoreline (per the law) by the time the wake reaches the shore there is little energy left.

This wave energy discussion is the crux of all the proposed wakeboat rules.

Woodsy
You are still not submitting a study to the Legislature with all your credentials to support your findings. The Lake Association is.
Should a court fight ensue at a later date... most lawyers would rather have the credentialed studies on their side.

[Woodsy]

You are still not submitting a study to the Legislature with all your credentials to support your findings. The Lake Association is.
Should a court fight ensue at a later date... most lawyers would rather have the credentialed studies on their side.

Blah Blah Blah... our discussion was about wave energy. There are plenty of credible studies that support my findings. I certainly could have posted my links but as you seemed so focused on wave speed the point would have been moot.

Woodsy

[John Mercier]

Not the ones being presented to the Legislature.
The Legislature is a very large body representing very diverse interests... and many times doing what it can to avoid lawsuits.

So somewhere along the line it determined that a boat should not come near the shore or another object in the water if travelling at more than headway speed.

The other object in the water may be for safety and reaction time - who knows? - but the shore has to be erosion... and that must mean the transmission of kinetic force in some manner.

You would need to present studies to overcome that... especially for legislators that are not focused on Lake Winnipesaukee - unless the bill specifies Lake Winnipesaukee.

For Lake Winnipesaukee, and maybe some other lakes, it should be rather easy... they want the property around the lake - within sight of the lake - to build dramatically in value... as it lowers the relative taxation to the properties not near the lake.

If you can show the safety and erosion risks are lower, then the higher speeds may lead to the property around the lake double or tripling in value - maybe a bit over done... but higher than now. That would lower the amount of property tax that needs to come from the other properties within a municipality, school district, and even the county.

[Blyblvrd]

Not the ones being presented to the Legislature.
The Legislature is a very large body representing very diverse interests... and many times doing what it can to avoid lawsuits.

So somewhere along the line it determined that a boat should not come near the shore or another object in the water if travelling at more than headway speed.

The other object in the water may be for safety and reaction time - who knows? - but the shore has to be erosion... and that must mean the transmission of kinetic force in some manner.

You would need to present studies to overcome that... especially for legislators that are not focused on Lake Winnipesaukee - unless the bill specifies Lake Winnipesaukee.

For Lake Winnipesaukee, and maybe some other lakes, it should be rather easy... they want the property around the lake - within sight of the lake - to build dramatically in value... as it lowers the relative taxation to the properties not near the lake.

If you can show the safety and erosion risks are lower, then the higher speeds may lead to the property around the lake double or tripling in value - maybe a bit over done... but higher than now. That would lower the amount of property tax that needs to come from the other properties within a municipality, school district, and even the county.

Lol.


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[John Mercier]

It isn't really funny.
There are many, such as myself, that want to see the lake properties increase in value and be built out... there are others that want to see that build out restrained.
If there is no additional erosion or safety issues by increasing, or doing away with, a limit that is very hard to enforce... it would mean that more boaters may want to be on our local waters.
Those boaters would want direct access rather than the use of a public access that may have limited parking and longer waits.

We could see a build out that might take decades due to material prices transpire quickly. That build out removes pressure on local budgets and keeps our property rate from rising.

But we have always been told that added erosion and loss of safety would result in collapsing property values... something that would shift costs back to us.

[TiltonBB]

It isn't really funny.
There are many, such as myself, that want to see the lake properties increase in value and be built out... there are others that want to see that build out restrained.

But we have always been told that added erosion and loss of safety would result in collapsing property values... something that would shift costs back to us.
"There are many, such as myself, that want to see the lake properties increase in value" Would that be so people in waterfront homeowners can carry the heavy end of the tax burden?

"Shift costs back to us"? So you see the issue as waterfront owners VS non waterfront owners?

First: There are many waterfront property owners who are year round New Hampshire residents. Making an Us VS them self serving argument looks petty.

But more important: New Hampshire has set itself up through it's tax structure to benefit substantially from non resident taxes and the tax revenue supported by the tourist industry. Many,many non residents contribute substantially to the tax base that the state uses, while taking very little in government supported services.

It is counter productive to bite the hand that feeds you.

[John Mercier]

They are properties.
It doesn't matter to anyone whether the property is occupied by the owner, or how long.

The higher that a sector of property goes within a district, the more that the cost of the budget as a percentage is shifted to that property.

Lakefront and Lake view are currently hot commodities... keeping that going is good for the tax rate when you have budgetary pressures on labor - which makes up much, if not most, of the local budgets.

If someone is willing to pay more for a property because they feel that they can do more of what pleases them... then the value of the property is likely to rise faster than the base... and it will shift the budgetary costs in that direction.

It insures that the housing sector stays strong... and the housing sector, not tourism, is the strongest part of what we have going in the Lakes Region. If we stop building or renovating... we lose jobs, lots of jobs. That improvement of the property makes the property worth more.

This isn't new. It just that currently we have an up cycle that we want to keep going. Some will sell... but that will mean that others are willing to buy.
And after they buy, they tend to renovate which keeps the construction industry busy.

So it isn't an US vs Them. They want the property, and want to build/renovate and we want them to come and purchase the properties and build/renovate. If a higher speed on the lake makes that happen... I don't see that as a bad thing.

We've been told for years that the opposite would happen.

[Garcia]

They are properties.
If a higher speed on the lake makes that happen... I don't see that as a bad thing.

We've been told for years that the opposite would happen.

I find it highly, highly doubtful that a higher lake speed (or lower one than what is currently in place for that matter) will have any bearing on the price of waterfront properties.

[Lakegeezer]

It isn't really funny.
There are many, such as myself, that want to see the lake properties increase in value and be built out... there are others that want to see that build out restrained.There has to be a balance. A 2015 Moultonboro watershed study included a build-out report. Water quality metrics were measured for today, for a pre-development era and for build-out based on current regulations. It showed that, at the time there was 26% of land within the study area that could be built on. Build-out would occur between 2039 and 2058, depending on growth rates. A phosphorus level above 8 accelerates aging of the lake. We are already there in the Moultonboro Bay Inlet study area and would add to the aging acceleration if build-out happened. See graphic. Basin 1 is Greens Basin inner basin, Basin 2 is the basin including Evergreen Island and Basin 3 is from Lees Mills to roughly Buzzels Cove. TP is total phosphorus concentration.

Even in today's building craze, too many wavers are granted and many rules to control water runoff are ignored. Restraint is needed because the pressure to build satisfies an immediate need but the impact lags by decades. By the time cyanobacteria blooms keep us out of the water every August, it will be too late for easy corrections.

[John Mercier]

I find it highly, highly doubtful that a higher lake speed (or lower one than what is currently in place for that matter) will have any bearing on the price of waterfront properties.

You don't think some boat owners would choose one over the other?
I would think that someone with a high speed boat, or looking to purchase a high speed boat, would want to own or rent property on a lake that supported that desire.

[John Mercier]

There has to be a balance. A 2015 Moultonboro watershed study included a build-out report. Water quality metrics were measured for today, for a pre-development era and for build-out based on current regulations. It showed that, at the time there was 26% of land within the study area that could be built on. Build-out would occur between 2039 and 2058, depending on growth rates. A phosphorus level above 8 accelerates aging of the lake. We are already there in the Moultonboro Bay Inlet study area and would add to the aging acceleration if build-out happened. See graphic. Basin 1 is Greens Basin inner basin, Basin 2 is the basin including Evergreen Island and Basin 3 is from Lees Mills to roughly Buzzels Cove. TP is total phosphorus concentration.

Even in today's building craze, too many wavers are granted and many rules to control water runoff are ignored. Restraint is needed because the pressure to build satisfies an immediate need but the impact lags by decades. By the time cyanobacteria blooms keep us out of the water every August, it will be too late for easy corrections.We started to sell Bonide because it was the first to offer chemical fertilizer that used boron instead (still has phosphorus in the starter)
Moultonboro has a low tax rate... and the family and friends that we have there will say it is because of all the waterfront properties. The high valuation relative to the budget keeps the tax rate low. But in Belknap county, I think Alton has the lowest. The other municipalities are going to go after the tax base were they can.

So even if new structure is not built, but more money is expended into the currently existing structures, it is good for the housing industry and the tax base. It may be short term thinking... but if the same house that sold last year for a million sells this year for more that budgetary inflation, it will affect the tax base overall.

Waterfront and view seem to be in high enough demand that they are more likely to see price appreciation faster than the others. The home owners paying more for those existing properties tend to upgrade.

The pro is usually more of an energy efficient unit (windows/doors/insulation/HVAC upgrade)... the con is that higher priced existing units leads to gentrification.

[Garcia]

You don't think some boat owners would choose one over the other?
I would think that someone with a high speed boat, or looking to purchase a high speed boat, would want to own or rent property on a lake that supported that desire.

No I don't, just as the implementation of the speed limit has not had a positive or negative impact on waterfront property.

[John Mercier]

Well, someone seems to be bringing it to the attention of Rep. Bordes.

[lakewinnie]

It isn't really funny.
There are many, such as myself, that want to see the lake properties increase in value and be built out... there are others that want to see that build out restrained.
If there is no additional erosion or safety issues by increasing, or doing away with, a limit that is very hard to enforce... it would mean that more boaters may want to be on our local waters.
Those boaters would want direct access rather than the use of a public access that may have limited parking and longer waits.

We could see a build out that might take decades due to material prices transpire quickly. That build out removes pressure on local budgets and keeps our property rate from rising.

But we have always been told that added erosion and loss of safety would result in collapsing property values... something that would shift costs back to us.

That's funny - I thought I read somewhere (maybe it was in an old thread) that the Lake was for the enjoyment and use of all NH residents, not just waterfront landowners. Now getting back to boats and speed limits...

[John Mercier]

Equal enjoyment.

But all property owners have protection from abutting owners doing or allowing for something that would damage their property.

For the 1.3 million plus residents of NH, many of us are not going to see that lakes or mountains as more than the monetary value to represent to us.

For me, the lake is just what draws the building. I never travel near Lake Winnipesaukee except when going to a property in relation to building.
The value to me is different than the other ''owners'' that may use the lake for other means.

For me, it is like being a shareholder in Facebook, I don't use it... but I like the way the profits move the share price.

[sunset on the dock]

One of the Republican Reps on the Transportation Committee has let it be known that he has received 800 emails against the bill to eliminate daytime speed limits on Winni and only 10 in favor. He says that the bill is essentially dead.

[znh]

All functions of a wake created by a boat are the result of an energy transfer. This energy transfer is directly related to boat displacement. The amount of energy in a wave depends on its height and wavelength as well as the distance over which it breaks. Given equal wavelengths, a wave with greater amplitude will release more energy when it falls back to sea level than a wave of lesser amplitude. The speed of the waves has little to do with this.

A boat on plane displaces very little water and thus transmits very little energy to the water. The low energy waves dissipate quickly. Assuming the boat on plane maintains 150' off the shoreline (per the law) by the time the wake reaches the shore there is little energy left.

This wave energy discussion is the crux of all the proposed wakeboat rules.

Woodsy

That sounds good. Too bad most of the large cruisers that create giant wakes are never anywhere near on plane...hence the issue with their giant wakes.

Speed limits and wakes seems like two completely separate issues. I know I'm a little late to the thread here but why are the two being discussed under the same umbrella?

[Outdoorsman]

Equal enjoyment.

But all property owners have protection from abutting owners doing or allowing for something that would damage their property.

For the 1.3 million plus residents of NH, many of us are not going to see that lakes or mountains as more than the monetary value to represent to us.

For me, the lake is just what draws the building. I never travel near Lake Winnipesaukee except when going to a property in relation to building.
The value to me is different than the other ''owners'' that may use the lake for other means.

For me, it is like being a shareholder in Facebook, I don't use it... but I like the way the profits move the share price.

For many of us, this is not like "being a shareholder in Facebook"!

Perhaps you could step back a bit, and let those whose lives are changed on these topics, make the comments.

Perhaps not comment on 100% of the threads on this forum?

[upthesaukee]

That sounds good. Too bad most of the large cruisers that create giant wakes are never anywhere near on plane...hence the issue with their giant wakes.

Speed limits and wakes seems like two completely separate issues. I know I'm a little late to the thread here but why are the two being discussed under the same umbrella?

Many, if not most, of the large cruisers do not have "planing hulls", they have displacement hulls. They will not get up on plane in the way our bowriders and runabouts do.

Dave

[Descant]

For many of us, this is not like "being a shareholder in Facebook"!

Perhaps you could step back a bit, and let those whose lives are changed on these topics, make the comments.

Perhaps not comment on 100% of the threads on this forum?

Hmmm. FLL, our busiest poster over time, posts about 433 times per year. We all have our individual opinions about the factual accuracy of his posts. John Mercier posts about 100 time per month/1200 per year. I suggest each member judge the factual accuracy of his posts accordingly. BTW, FLL is not trying to sell anything.

[sunset on the dock]

By Kevin Landrigan, New Hampshire Union Leader

Mar 1, 2022 Updated 57 min ago

A House panel voted by a 5-1 margin to recommend killing legislation that would eliminate the daytime, 45 mph speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee.

CONCORD — A move to get rid of the daytime speed limit on New Hampshire’s biggest lake failed a House committee test Tuesday, after citizens flooded legislators with hundreds of emails in opposition.

Many owners and sellers of large recreational boats favor dumping the 13-year-old limit of 45 mph on Lake Winnipesaukee that kicks in a half an hour before sunrise to half an hour after sunset.

The nighttime speed limit on the lake is 30 mph.

Rep. Aidan Ankarberg, R-Rochester, said 600 people signed up remotely in support of the bill, with 200 opposed.

Five House Republicans from five of the state’s 10 counties agreed to sponsor the measure (HB 1424).

The chairman of the House Transportation Committee and the House deputy speaker didn’t want to kill it.

But state Rep. Dennis Thompson, R-Stewartstown, said more than 800 emails he received against the bill convinced him to drop his support as a co-sponsor.

Thompson joined the 15-3 majority on the House Transportation Committee who voted to recommend the full House kill the bill later this spring.

“Early on I thought it wasn’t a bad idea,” Thompson said.

The Winnipesaukee Sailing Association started one petition in favor of the speed limit, which had more than 300 supporters.

“The typical family motorboat can’t go 45 mph anyway. This bill is aimed primarily at huge, high-speed ‘muscle boats’ that can go 80 mph and plenty more,” the petition said. “Fortunately, the existing law has kept a lot of those monsters off the lake.”

Marine patrol had no position

Rep. Ted Gorski, R-Bedford, said he was certain many boaters could stay safe without a speed limit, but he worried about those who weren’t careful.

“I appreciate the responsible boat owners who might be able to navigate this,” Gorski said. “What I am more concerned about are the irresponsible boat owners.”

The state Division of Marine Patrol that polices traffic on the state’s lakes and ponds took no position on the bill.

Rep. Michael Bordes, R-Laconia, prime author of the measure, said he was open to compromise.

Supporters convinced him to extend the bill beyond his original idea, to only eliminate the speed limit on “The Broads,” the island-free, very wide expanse north of Governor’s Island in the center of the lake, where owners of large boats often go to travel at maximum speeds.

Bordes also said he could live with leaving the speed limit in place on the weekends, when boat traffic is most congested.

But Rep. Karel Crawford, R-Center Harbor, said she can’t support any change.

“It’s a safety issue as far as I am concerned. I felt like eliminating the speed limit in Lake Winnipesaukee, whether it is in The Broads or not, would be a hazard to our citizens using the lake,” Crawford said.

Committee Chairman Tom Walsh, R-Hooksett, said he’s been safely boating on the lake for decades and thinks changing the speed limit would not make it less safe.

“You can go slower if it’s busy,” Walsh said. “If we have an issue with unqualified boaters, maybe we should be looking at that.”

Most of the state’s largest lakes have no speed limits, though 40 mph is the fastest a boater can go during the day on Spofford Lake near the Vermont border and Squam Lake, the bucolic waterway that was the location for the Academy Award-winning film, “On Golden Pond.”

A number of much smaller ponds and rivers have even lower posted limits.

Former Gov. John Lynch signed a 2010 law that made the Lake Winnipesaukee speed limits permanent.

The Legislature in 2009 set speed limits for two years to test the idea, but a year later lawmakers acted to enshrine them

[fatlazyless]

On a rainy and foggy Tuesday early morning, June 17, 2008 at about 2-am, a 37' Formula with three women onboard struck a rocky ledge on the shoreline of Diamond Island resulting in one death.

After the Friday, July 4, 2008 Independence :patriot: Day holiday weekend, like on July 7 or 8 or 9 or so, Gov John Lynch signed the initial Lake Winnipesaukee 45-day/30-night speed limit into law. If I remember correct, it was in effect for one year and then got extended, or something.

[tis]

It seems to me, as it seemed to me last time that it's the legislators that don't live around the like that don't want to change it. Why should they care? I didn't see an official count so maybe I am wrong.

Also the Diamond Island crash involved alcohol as do most of these serious crashes.

[sunset on the dock]

It seems to me, as it seemed to me last time that it's the legislators that don't live around the like that don't want to change it. Why should they care? I didn't see an official count so maybe I am wrong.

Also the Diamond Island crash involved alcohol as do most of these serious crashes.
Actually in 2011 greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake voted in favor of the speed limit. And Karel Crawford is from Moultonboro

And as far as alcohol is concerned one's chances of avoiding a near miss from an impaired driver going 45 MPH are a lot better than if they are going 70 MPH.

[codeman671]

On a rainy and foggy Tuesday early morning, June 17, 2008 at about 2-am, a 32' Fountain with three women onboard struck a rocky ledge on the shoreline of Diamond Island resulting in one death.

After the Friday, July 4, 2008 Independence :patriot: Day holiday weekend, like on July 7 or 8 or 9 or so, Gov John Lynch signed the initial Lake Winnipesaukee 45-day/30-night speed limit into law. If I remember correct, it was in effect for one year and then got extended, or something.

It was a 37' Formula sport cruiser, not a 32' Fountain.

If you are trying to tie the speed limit to this accident, I would focus more on the alcohol, weather conditions and failure to maintain a proper lookout.

[thinkxingu]

I kinda like where we're at because, let's be honest, the only people not speeding on the lake are the ones who don't take that level of speedboat there because of the limit.

It's like the highway system now. Sure, there's a 55/65 MPH speed limit that keeps supercars and bikes to a minimum but nobody actually stays under 65.

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[joey2665]

Actually in 2011 greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake voted in favor of the speed limit. And Karel Crawford is from Moultonboro

And as far as alcohol is concerned one's chances of avoiding a near miss from an impaired driver going 45 MPH are a lot better than if they are going 70 MPH.

The issue at hand is day time speed limits. This incident referred to above happened at night where the limit wouldn’t change.


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[tis]

Actually in 2011 greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake voted in favor of the speed limit. And Karel Crawford is from Moultonboro

And as far as alcohol is concerned one's chances of avoiding a near miss from an impaired driver going 45 MPH are a lot better than if they are going 70 MPH.


Interesting. Would you have a list?

[sunset on the dock]

Interesting. Would you have a list?

You can go to the archived list at the NH House of Representatives and go back to 2011.

[Descant]

Interesting. Would you have a list?

Roll call votes in the House are available on line as a link from the bill's docket.

[tis]

Roll call votes in the House are available on line as a link from the bill's docket.


I thought maybe he had found it already so had the list.

[John Mercier]

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/bill_status/legacy/bs2016/Roll_calls/billstatus_rcdetails.aspx?vs=177&sy=2010&lb=H&eb=SB0464&sortoption=&txtsessionyear=2010&txttitle=speed&ddlsponsors=&lsr=2782

[fatlazyless]

It was a 37' Formula sport cruiser, not a 32' Fountain.

If you are trying to tie the speed limit to this accident, I would focus more on the alcohol, weather conditions and failure to maintain a proper lookout.

As I recall, wasn't the driver also the president of SBONH, Safe Boaters of New Hampshire which opposed a Lake Winnipesaukee speed limit. .... :eek: ..... and it got mega-tons and tons of attention in the NH media and NH news.

[sunset on the dock]

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/bill_status/legacy/bs2016/Roll_calls/billstatus_rcdetails.aspx?vs=177&sy=2010&lb=H&eb=SB0464&sortoption=&txtsessionyear=2010&txttitle=speed&ddlsponsors=&lsr=2782

I think you want the 2011 vote.

[John Mercier]

The 2011 vote was opposition to increasing Lake Winnipesaukee daytime speed limit to 55.

It was voted down... and this would be the House Roll Call.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/bill_status/legacy/bs2016/Roll_calls/billstatus_rcdetails.aspx?vs=199&sy=2011&lb=H&eb=SB0027&sortoption=&txtsessionyear=2011&txttitle=speed&ddlsponsors=&lsr=623

[chachee52]

As I recall, wasn't the driver also the president of SBONH, Safe Boaters of New Hampshire which opposed a Lake Winnipesaukee speed limit. .... :eek: ..... and it got mega-tons and tons of attention in the NH media and NH news.

Its my understanding she was something like that, maybe VP of SBONH or something, and it came across that Lynch passed the bill kind of out of spite in a lot of peoples minds. This accident didn't break any of the laws that passed right after.
MP didn't want to bill at the time because it was still being studied, and because of the weather that year there was only a few days they were actually able to use the radar guns up to that point of time.
Its a shame. Loved watching and listening to the "monster muscle" boats (as someone stated, not my words) run up and down the broads.

[John Mercier]

The Governor only gets to sign, let become law without their signature, or veto bill.

Lynch saw a 268 to 79 vote. Smart governors tread lightly when you see that kind of ratio.

Afterward when they tried to raise the speed limit... the vote was still 276 to 75... so the House conviction to the speed limit had gotten stronger.

If my dates are correct, that was the legislative term with the Republican super-majority.

[sunset on the dock]

Yes, having a Winni speed limit was popular then as it is now. If you listened to the testimony in Concord in February, 6 marinas on the lake have come out as being against HB 1424 and one marina owner even showed up to testify in person against the bill. Now Lake Winnipesaukee Association, NH Lakes Association and Lakes Region Conservation Trust have joined in opposition. Fast forward to last Tuesday and no surprise a bipartisan rejection, 15:3, to kill the bill.

[codeman671]

As I recall, wasn't the driver also the president of SBONH, Safe Boaters of New Hampshire which opposed a Lake Winnipesaukee speed limit. .... :eek: ..... and it got mega-tons and tons of attention in the NH media and NH news.

In 2010 it was Scott Verdonck (OCDACTIVE here on the forum). Not sure about previous to that. I think SBONH is no longer.

[webmaster]

As I recall, wasn't the driver also the president of SBONH, Safe Boaters of New Hampshire which opposed a Lake Winnipesaukee speed limit. .... :eek: ..... and it got mega-tons and tons of attention in the NH media and NH news.She was the President of the NH Recreational Boaters Association (NHRBA).

[fatlazyless]

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 was about two years prior to 2010 with regard to who was president of the Safe Boaters of New Hampshire on that infamous, rainy, foggy night of the Diamond Island crash.

Similarly, the NH Marine Trades Assoc. has a website or an organization(?) to promote wake boarding with a You Tube, "Wake Responsibility Wave Study" .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daa0U56zvwc&feature=youtu.be .... Sep 1, 2020 ....2:09 at their website or organization(?) that is named www.boatingnh.com

...... A-mazingly ..... this video link actually works ..... 3-cheers! ..... :laugh:

[LIforrelaxin]

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 was about two years prior to 2010 with regard to who was president of the Safe Boaters of New Hampshire on that infamous, rainy, foggy night of the Diamond Island crash.

Similarly, the NH Marine Trades Assoc. has a website or an organization(?) to promote wake boarding with a You Tube, "Wake Responsibility Wave Study" .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daa0U56zvwc&feature=youtu.be .... Sep 1, 2020 ....2:09 at their website or organization(?) that is named www.boatingnh.com

...... A-mazingly ..... this video link actually works ..... 3-cheers! ..... :laugh:

There where two entities which fought against the speed limit...

Safe Boaters of New Hampshire (SBONH), who's preseident fought for the speed limit but was not the person involved in the Diamond Island Crash, and was on this forum as OCDActive..... SBONH tried to hold on, but lack of involvement from members caused it to die out.

Now the person who crashed into Diamond Island... was part of and I believe president of NH Recreational Boaters Association (NHRBA), which also died, because of the incident on Diamond island as well as loss of interest after the speed limit was enacted....

[znh]

All of this just seems kind of silly and a huge waste of money and resources...of which how much is taxpayer money?

If I watch 100 boats cross the Broads on a Saturday afternoon, maybe 10% of them could even break the 45 MPH speed limit if they tried, in flat water, by themselves on their boat.

I have also seen most of the boats that can easily do 45+ go that fast and without any issues or real safety concerns. I was told by a Marine Patrol officer that they issue less then 10 speeding tickets a year on Winni.

So what is really the issue here? It's not income from the state writing speeding tickets, it's not really an issue of need as most boats can't and wouldn't go much faster. Just seems like a lot of time and energy and resources wasted for a such a non-issue. Just keep it as it is and move on...

[phoenix]

Glad it was defeated but like the moultonboro rec center it keeps coming back

[swnoel]

How many boaters on the lake have actually been affected by this law? My guess is not many can or want to travel over 45MPH. My boat will do 40+/- mph at WOT and is a a very unpleasant ride. Course bass boats and cigarette style hull boats are designed for those high speed rides, but I'd guess they can't be very pleasurable either.

[TiltonBB]

There are a lot of boats on Winnipesaukee, and most jet skis, that will exceed the 45 MPH speed limit.

I don't think the speed limit is enforced much, if at all. It would come in to play in the reconstruction of serious accident. In many boats the engine computer leaves a trail so after an accident the engine RPM at the time of the accident could be used with reasonable accuracy to determine the boat speed.

I regularly see boats and jet skis exceeding the speed limit, without incident. The law was, and remains, a feel good law.

[fatlazyless]

There are a lot of boats on Winnipesaukee, and most jet skis, that will exceed the 45 MPH speed limit.

I regularly see boats and jet skis exceeding the speed limit, without incident. The law was, and remains, a feel good law.

For kayaks and stand-up paddle boards, the speed limit definitely makes the paddler FEEL GOOD!

For something like $300-400 at Wally World you can take yourself way out there on the big lake with a kayak/sup paddle, pfd & whistle and be good to hit the wide open water spaces out there.

Kayaks and sups tend to be somewhat invisible to motor boats and will show up way out beyond the spar markers in the motorboat channels so the speed limit makes the lake a safer place to go paddle the Lake Winnipesaukee big waters.

Motorboats certainly seem to have a lot of needs ..... a motorboat need registration, NH boater certificate, gasoline, insurance, and rocky water at least 5' deep while a kayak/sup only needs a paddle and .... a BIG :) SMILE!

[swnoel]

There are a lot of boats on Winnipesaukee, and most jet skis, that will exceed the 45 MPH speed limit.

I don't think the speed limit is enforced much, if at all. It would come in to play in the reconstruction of serious accident. In many boats the engine computer leaves a trail so after an accident the engine RPM at the time of the accident could be used with reasonable accuracy to determine the boat speed.

I regularly see boats and jet skis exceeding the speed limit, without incident. The law was, and remains, a feel good law.


How do you know how fast they're actually going?

[TiltonBB]

How do you know how fast they're actually going?

I am a trained observer. I also have a radar gun. I didn't state that I knew how fast they were going, only that they had exceeded the 45 MPH limit.

I have a pontoon boat and a V hull boat, both of which have GPS speedometers (and both capable of speeds in excess of 45 MPH).

I have been out in my boats, of course only doing 45, and been passed by boats going faster.

Any questions?

[sunset on the dock]

I have also seen most of the boats that can easily do 45+ go that fast and without any issues or real safety concerns. I was told by a Marine Patrol officer that they issue less then 10 speeding tickets a year on Winni.

So what is really the issue here?

I suspect no speeding tickets have been issued on my residential street for the entire year. And I suspect no tickets have been issued regarding dogs pooping in the park down the street. That does not mean that we should make these activities legal.

[Woodsy]

I suspect no speeding tickets have been issued on my residential street for the entire year. And I suspect no tickets have been issued regarding dogs pooping in the park down the street. That does not mean that we should make these activities legal.

That is a false equivalency.... Rules/Laws on the road have nothing to do with rules on the water. The reasons for both are vastly different.

The DAYTIME speed limit on the lake has had ZERO effect on lake safety. There were no high speed (>45MPH) accidents before the speed limit... there have been no high speed (>45MPH) accidents since the passage of the speed limit. During the day a boaters visibility is measured in miles, not yards or feet.

Almost every accident on this lake has occurred at NIGHT and involved alcohol. There have been other mitigating factors as well, reduced visibility, operator error, etc etc.

The speed limit is a feel good law that luckily is rarely enforced. I would prefer the MP deal with the boneheads who do not know the ROW rules and the NWZ rules. Usually the 150' rule doesn't get me riled unless they are danger close (<40')

Woodsy

[VitaBene]

I suspect no speeding tickets have been issued on my residential street for the entire year. And I suspect no tickets have been issued regarding dogs pooping in the park down the street. That does not mean that we should make these activities legal.

Who do you post as usually?

[sunset on the dock]

That is a false equivalency.... Rules/Laws on the road have nothing to do with rules on the water. The reasons for both are vastly different.

The DAYTIME speed limit on the lake has had ZERO effect on lake safety. There were no high speed (>45MPH) accidents before the speed limit... there have been no high speed (>45MPH) accidents since the passage of the speed limit. During the day a boaters visibility is measured in miles, not yards or feet.

Almost every accident on this lake has occurred at NIGHT and involved alcohol. There have been other mitigating factors as well, reduced visibility, operator error, etc etc.

The speed limit is a feel good law that luckily is rarely enforced. I would prefer the MP deal with the boneheads who do not know the ROW rules and the NWZ rules. Usually the 150' rule doesn't get me riled unless they are danger close (<40')

Woodsy

Well your take on this seems to be somewhat at odds with the 83% of the Transportation Committee who voted to kill the bill this week, bipartisan no less. And the 80% of reps who supported the SL 11 years ago. And the greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake that supported the SL 11 years ago.

[fatlazyless]

"The speed limit is a feel good law that luckily is rarely enforced." ... Woodsy[/QUOTE]

Hey Woodsy, you used to have a Donzi ...... do you still have it and use it?

Was it a Donzi Sweet-16 or a Donzi much larger and what's it got for an engine?

[Woodsy]

"The speed limit is a feel good law that luckily is rarely enforced."

Hey Woodsy, you used to have a Donzi ...... do you still have it and use it?

Was it a Donzi Sweet-16 or a Donzi much larger and what's it got for an engine?

Why does that matter? I make no secret of who I am or what boat(s) I possess.

Woodsy

[Woodsy]

Well your take on this seems to be somewhat at odds with the 83% of the Transportation Committee who voted to kill the bill this week, bipartisan no less. And the 80% of reps who supported the SL 11 years ago. And the greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake that supported the SL 11 years ago.

Sunset...

It's safe to say that most of the transportation committee has nothing to do with representing Lake Winnipesaukee. Only 2 lakes region towns are represented, but and only 1 representative ron the committee is from a town bordering the lake.

Nor does it change any of the facts I posted above.... ZERO accidents at a speed >45MPH.

Personally I don't really care or worry about speed when I am on the water. Its a rare day when I cruise faster than 45MPH, even though my boat is capable of 1.5X that speed.

Woodsy

[sunset on the dock]

Sorry Woodsy...Karel Crawford is from Moultonboro and voted to kill the bill. Not that that matters...people from all parts of the state boat on Winnipesaukee and like you have their own opinions. And as said, 11 years ago greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake supported the speed limit.

And I was pleased to learn that the Lake Winnipesaukee Association and Lakes Region Conservation Trust have formally opposed the bill. And the NH Lakes Association. And the Lake Winni Sailing Assoc. And the NH Lakes Advisory Board. And 6 Winni marinas, one of whose owners spoke at the Trans. Comm. hearing. Check out the testimony, it's quite easy, all videotaped and available online. It is quite compelling.

[DEJ]

Woodsy wrote: Nor does it change any of the facts I posted above.... ZERO accidents at a speed >45MPH.

[Woodsy]

Sorry Woodsy...Karel Crawford is from Moultonboro and voted to kill the bill. Not that that matters...people from all parts of the state boat on Winnipesaukee and like you have their own opinions. And as said, 11 years ago greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake supported the speed limit.

And I was pleased to learn that the Lake Winnipesaukee Association and Lakes Region Conservation Trust have formally opposed the bill. And the NH Lakes Association. And the Lake Winni Sailing Assoc. And the NH Lakes Advisory Board. And 6 Winni marinas, one of whose owners spoke at the Trans. Comm. hearing. Check out the testimony, it's quite easy, all videotaped and available online. It is quite compelling.

I edited my post accordingly... thanks for pointing that out.

Like I said above I personally don't worry too much about the speed limit.

Speed limits on the roadways don't stop people from buying sports cars like a Porsche or a Corvette and driving them faster than allowed. I don't think a speed limit on the lake stops people from buying fast boats and driving them faster than allowed either.

Now if the economy tanks or hi-test gas gets ridiculous... then you might see the folks with those boats slow down a little.

Woodsy

[sunset on the dock]

Woodsy wrote: Nor does it change any of the facts I posted above.... ZERO accidents at a speed >45MPH.

Zero? Really? You need to get your facts straight. Wonder how that swimmer did?


State of New Hampshire
DEPARTMENT OF SAFETY
Robert L. Quinn, Commissioner of Safety
Division of State Police
James H. Hayes Safety Building, 33 Hazen Drive, Concord, NH 03305

Colonel Nathan A. Noyes
Director



February 3, 2022


The following accidents have been identified as being related to speeds potentially in excess of limits set by RSA 270-D:2 X:

2013
July 7th 5:00 pm Operator of PWC (Personal Watercraft) fell into handle bars 45 mph
July 20th 8:00am Operator struck underwater object and boat sunk 45 mph

2015
August 23rd 8:17am Powerboat struck swimmer 65+mph

2018
September 2nd 2:56pm PWC fall over board 50 mph


Sincerely,

Timothy C. Dunleavy
Marine Patrol Captain

[joey2665]

Woodsy wrote: Nor does it change any of the facts I posted above.... ZERO accidents at a speed >45MPH.

Zero? Really? You need to get your facts straight. Wonder how that swimmer did?


State of New Hampshire
DEPARTMENT OF SAFETY
Robert L. Quinn, Commissioner of Safety
Division of State Police
James H. Hayes Safety Building, 33 Hazen Drive, Concord, NH 03305

Colonel Nathan A. Noyes
Director



February 3, 2022


The following accidents have been identified as being related to speeds potentially in excess of limits set by RSA 270-D:2 X:

2013
July 7th 5:00 pm Operator of PWC (Personal Watercraft) fell into handle bars 45 mph
July 20th 8:00am Operator struck underwater object and boat sunk 45 mph

2015
August 23rd 8:17am Powerboat struck swimmer 65+mph

2018
September 2nd 2:56pm PWC fall over board 50 mph


Sincerely,

Timothy C. Dunleavy
Marine Patrol Captain

May not be zero, but 3 incidents in 7 seasons and extremely minimal for the amount of boats on the lake.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[chachee52]

May not be zero, but 3 incidents in 7 seasons and extremely minimal for the amount of boats on the lake.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

I only saw 2 that fell into the "against that rules".

Thank you Woodsy for saying what you have been saying. At the time of the original bill, I know MP stated less than 1% of all boating accidents in NH had anything to do with speed.
And falling off a jet ski is just stupidity and bad driving most of the time. Yes, randomly a rouge wave, but most of the time the accidents I hear from jetskis are they jumped the wave and hit their head or another boat.

[sunset on the dock]

May not be zero, but 3 incidents in 7 seasons and extremely minimal for the amount of boats on the lake.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

Again, as alluded to previously, just because there were no accidents on my street in the last 7 years does not mean I will advocate to have no speed limits on my street.

[TiltonBB]

Again, as alluded to previously, just because there were no accidents on my street in the last 7 years does not mean I will advocate to have no speed limits on my street.

Let's use your logic: There were probably no dog bites on your street either but shouldn't we outlaw dogs on your street just to eliminate that possibility.

It looks like only two incidents that would have fallen outside the speed limit in 9 years. That statistic, on a lake with thousands of boats, actually illustrates the opposite of what you are trying to say.

It solidifies that fact that speed is not, and has not been, a problem. It remains a "feel good" law.

Anyone who thinks that two incidents in 9 years represents a problem is kidding themselves.

[DEJ]

I always go with the experts when it comes to safety on the lake, in this case the experts are Marine Patrol, they were not in favor of this law.

[sunset on the dock]

Actually the MP did not come out as in favor or not. Ditto Marine Trades Assoc. But the NH Lakes Management Advisory Committee did come out as against the bill. It is a 19 member NH governmental agency, not simply a single head of the MP with his own agenda. And I also consider the NH Lakes Assoc. and Lake Winni Assoc. as knowledgeable stewards of the lake. And six marina owners know what helps and hurts the local economy.

But here is the really interesting part. Two of the bill's co-sponsors, Littlefield (R)( Laconia) and Dennis Thompson withdrew their support citing their objections to this reckless bill. I'm told that when a sponsor, in this case two, withdraws their support for a bill then said bill is pretty much dead on arrival. We saw a harbinger of that when the committee voted 15:3 to ITL.

[chachee52]

Again, as alluded to previously, just because there were no accidents on my street in the last 7 years does not mean I will advocate to have no speed limits on my street.

Going around in circles. Again, forget about the last 7 years. When there was no speed limit on the lake, speed was not a factor in over 99% of all accidents.
Again taking the speed limit off or keeping it in place has no affect on how I boat. My boat doesn't go about 45 anyway. But when laws make no sense statistically, like it did when it was first put into affect, than its a "feel good law" as others have stated.

[John Mercier]

RBOB jumped 23 cents today.
But we haven't really seen the local economy make the change as of yet.

[joey2665]

Again, as alluded to previously, just because there were no accidents on my street in the last 7 years does not mean I will advocate to have no speed limits on my street.

Just because there are 3 accidents on 93 doesn’t mean we need to drop the speed limit down to 45 either.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[sunset on the dock]

Just because there are 3 accidents on 93 doesn’t mean we need to drop the speed limit down to 45 either.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

And just because there are only 3 accidents on 93 doesn't mean we remove all speed limits from said highway.

And getting back to the 2 reps who withdrew co-sponsorship and the 6 marinas who oppose the bill, to quote James Carville, "it's the economy stupid".
Safety is just one of many reasons to preserve the speed limit on the lake.

[Seaplane Pilot]

I have contacted my state rep encouraging them to introduce a bill requiring safety flags on all kayaks. That’s a REAL safety issue, unlike the useless speed limit law.

[fatlazyless]

Their kayak two-bladed paddle seems to get noticed, first, by a motorboat as it approaches and alters its course. Painting the blades high gloss white works good what with the paddle movement to be seen from something like 1/2-mile away, across the water.

A flag doesn't work as well as a moving twin blade paddle because the flag is stationary, unlike the paddle, and a flag just blends into the background when seen from a distance.

So, kayaks already have an identifier as seen by an approaching motorboat with the twin-bladed, moving paddle and the color bright white is a lot better than a dark color to get seen by the driver in an approaching motorboat.

[thinkxingu]

Hey, we agree on something! A boating outing doesn't go by without a kayaker or canoeist in the middle of a busy passage being a safety hazard.

Note that I didn't say "nuisance" because everyone has access to the lake, but there's a courtesy that comes from thinking safety.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[joey2665]

And just because there are only 3 accidents on 93 doesn't mean we remove all speed limits from said highway.

And getting back to the 2 reps who withdrew co-sponsorship and the 6 marinas who oppose the bill, to quote Larry Carville, "it's the economy stupid".
Safety is just one of many reasons to preserve the speed limit on the lake.

Here is were you are incorrect. Nationwide due to the low accident rates speed limits were increased in many areas to 65 and 75.

So maybe the speed limit shouldn't be removed but at least increased in the daytime. Oh wait, a compromise, how original these days :)

[thinkxingu]

If I'm not mistaken, speed limits were more about fuel conservation, right?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[LoveLakeLife]

James Carville, not Larry.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[sunset on the dock]

James Carville, not Larry.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

Sorry, will correct. We have an acquaintance named Larry Carville. And I have also been corrected on another point. Three, not two co-sponsors of HB 1424 are no longer supporting the bill. John Potucek has joined Reps. Littlefield and Thompson. All three are Republicans. I know some on this forum will disagree but I would respectfully argue that when half of a bill's co-sponsors defect it seems to me that people are coming to the realization that this bill is irresponsible, reckless, and wildly unpopular.

[lakewinnie]

Zero? Really? You need to get your facts straight. Wonder how that swimmer did?


State of New Hampshire
DEPARTMENT OF SAFETY
Robert L. Quinn, Commissioner of Safety
Division of State Police
James H. Hayes Safety Building, 33 Hazen Drive, Concord, NH 03305

Colonel Nathan A. Noyes
Director



February 3, 2022


The following accidents have been identified as being related to speeds potentially in excess of limits set by RSA 270-D:2 X:

2013
July 7th 5:00 pm Operator of PWC (Personal Watercraft) fell into handle bars 45 mph
July 20th 8:00am Operator struck underwater object and boat sunk 45 mph

2015
August 23rd 8:17am Powerboat struck swimmer 65+mph

2018
September 2nd 2:56pm PWC fall over board 50 mph


Sincerely,

Timothy C. Dunleavy
Marine Patrol Captain

"related to speeds potentially in excess of limits..."

I would need to know more about these three accidents to conclude that they were due to boats going over 45 mph day/30 mph night. Are these basically all of the fatal accidents where the boat/PWC was going over the speed limit? If so, thus the qualifier "potentially".

Everyone here knows that a boat going slower than the speed limit can kill a swimmer.

I don't find these statistics compelling one way of the other, without knowing more about these accidents.

[John Mercier]

If I'm not mistaken, speed limits were more about fuel conservation, right?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

For the highway... yes.

The US has always had a problem that some refuse to accept.
Even during our highest domestic crude oil production... we produced roughly 13/mbd and used 21/mbd.

[Descant]

I have contacted my state rep encouraging them to introduce a bill requiring safety flags on all kayaks. That’s a REAL safety issue, unlike the useless speed limit law.

When we were going through the speed limit stuff ~2009 a couple of reps on the RR & D committee took all the safety issues that people complained about that had nothing to do with speed, and put them into a separate bill. Flags for kayaks, canoes, whistles, etc. Amazingly, people like the Camp Directors Association fought this stuff because while they were trying to teach safe boating, they were concerned that if you gave a kid a whistle, he would blow it. There's a real eye roller.
Historically speed limit bills go to the Transportation Committee and prior to 2008 there had been ~18 bills that had failed. Speed limit advocates did two things. They found a committee chair on their side who convinced the Speaker to assign the bill to his committee, not Transportation, but RR & D. Second, instead of using lobbyists, they ran a series of public surveys that showed that statewide, 62%(?) of the population thought speed limits would improve safety. Then they went around to newspaper editorial boards and convinced them to print editorials in favor of speed limits (SAFETY). Any Rep or Senator who had no personal boating experience was hard pressed to "vote against safety." It was a good strategy and it worked, even though there were no statistics demonstrating a link between speed and accidents. (On the highway, there is some evidence that weaving around and tailgating cause accidents, but speed is easier to enforce, so speed limits and radar guns get the nod.)
My recollection is that there were a handful of GFBL boats with obnoxious operators that really pushed the desire to get rid of them and speed won even though many people didn't like the noise. Noise bills were successfully passed, but the speed people apparently didn't want anything to dilute their successful message. In any event, most of the noise is gone along with the high speeds. Or, maybe the high speeds are still there, but since they're quiet, nobody notices enough to call in a complaint? Time to focus on wake boats and loud stereo as the new enemy.

[FlyingScot]

My recollection is that there were a handful of GFBL boats with obnoxious operators that really pushed the desire to get rid of them and speed won even though many people didn't like the noise. Noise bills were successfully passed, but the speed people apparently didn't want anything to dilute their successful message. In any event, most of the noise is gone along with the high speeds. Or, maybe the high speeds are still there, but since they're quiet, nobody notices enough to call in a complaint? Time to focus on wake boats and loud stereo as the new enemy.

Exactly--it is the obnoxious operators that lead to clampdowns on all--GFBL guys, circling wake boats, jet skis weaving through bowriders and toons....We might debate and nitpick safety, but it's these things that spike stress levels for others and lead to hundreds of emails

[Boatbottom952]

That is a false equivalency.... Rules/Laws on the road have nothing to do with rules on the water. The reasons for both are vastly different.

The DAYTIME speed limit on the lake has had ZERO effect on lake safety. There were no high speed (>45MPH) accidents before the speed limit... there have been no high speed (>45MPH) accidents since the passage of the speed limit. During the day a boaters visibility is measured in miles, not yards or feet.

Almost every accident on this lake has occurred at NIGHT and involved alcohol. There have been other mitigating factors as well, reduced visibility, operator error, etc etc.

The speed limit is a feel good law that luckily is rarely enforced. I would prefer the MP deal with the boneheads who do not know the ROW rules and the NWZ rules. Usually the 150' rule doesn't get me riled unless they are danger close (<40')

Woodsy

Not sure people will understand you Woodsy, Way Way to much Common Sense in that statement. IQ does not equal Common sense. Money doesn't equal Common Sense. It's either YOU have it or you Don't.

[Boatbottom952]

Who do you post as usually?

Remember " Rusty "

[LikeLakes]

Again, as alluded to previously, just because there were no accidents on my street in the last 7 years does not mean I will advocate to have no speed limits on my street.

Sunset, I get what you are trying to say. I just don't see the equivalency. I'm guessing you mean you are on a side street, probably 25 or 30 mph limit? Let me know if I'm wrong. I agree, and I bet every person here would agree, that speed limit is appropriate and necessary for a neighborhood street.

I believe the 45 mph speed limit in large open water areas is neither needed nor effective. Just my opinion, of course. Would I consider an 80 mph limit appropriate? I don't know, but I'd have to think about it.

Now back to your street. If they implemented a 10 mph limit, would it be appropriate? Would you then perhaps advocate that yes there should be a limit, but 25 or 30 is the correct number?

Not really trying to argue with you, I really do respect the "limit is appropriate" side of the discussion. But I think part of the discord is how 45 mph is viewed by boaters like me, I'm an owner of a 60 plus mph boat and feel the limit is neither needed nor effective.

[John Mercier]

The bill was not specified to large open water.
Maybe it will get amended. Maybe they will need to wait until the next session.

[fatlazyless]

Stand-up paddle boards are required to have a pfd onboard and a whistle while kayaks are required to have a pfd but not a whistle. Has something to do with the Coast Guard decision that a stand-up paddle board is a vessel .... toot-toot ... :eek:???

And, actually wearing the pfd is not required in NH if age-16 or older, or something??? Common sense tells you to wear a pfd with a good loud whistle or maybe an air horn! Air horns come small enough to fit in a pocket on a pfd or be worn around the neck on a lanyard.

[sunset on the dock]

Sunset, I get what you are trying to say. I just don't see the equivalency. I'm guessing you mean you are on a side street, probably 25 or 30 mph limit? Let me know if I'm wrong. I agree, and I bet every person here would agree, that speed limit is appropriate and necessary for a neighborhood street.

I believe the 45 mph speed limit in large open water areas is neither needed nor effective. Just my opinion, of course. Would I consider an 80 mph limit appropriate? I don't know, but I'd have to think about it.

Now back to your street. If they implemented a 10 mph limit, would it be appropriate? Would you then perhaps advocate that yes there should be a limit, but 25 or 30 is the correct number?

Not really trying to argue with you, I really do respect the "limit is appropriate" side of the discussion. But I think part of the discord is how 45 mph is viewed by boaters like me, I'm an owner of a 60 plus mph boat and feel the limit is neither needed nor effective.

30 MPH is an appropriate speed limit for my street. And 45 MPH is what the public feels is an appropriate speed on the lake. How do I justify my argument? The public has weighed in:

As noted in my previous posts:

1) 80% of the house voted in 2011 that 45 MPH was appropriate with greater than 80% of reps from towns bordering the lake.

2) The Transportation Committee with a 15:3 vote last week concurs.

3) Business agree that 45 MPH is an appropriate speed. Over 300 businesses supported the implementation of our 45/30 law a decade ago. This included marinas and this time around 6 of them are opposing HB 1424. They know what is good for their bottom line. One marina owner testified as such at the recent hearing in Concord.
I walk to the town docks in Meredith during the summer and boats are lined up waiting for an open dock space.

4) Influential organizations/stewards of the lake feel 45 MPH is an appropriate speed.

Lakes Region Conservation Trust
Lake Winnipesaukee Association
NH Lakes Management Advisory Committee
NH Lakes Association
Loon Preservation Committee
Wolfeboro Waters
NH Camps Directors Association
Lake Winnipesaukee Sailing Association
Camps Brookwoods, Deer Run, Kabeyun, Belknap, and Sandy Island Camp

I get it. You have a boat that goes 60 MPH. Rep. Bordes has a boat that will go 58 MPH. Rep. Bordes stated in the LDS article last fall that NY, the state from which he hailed, has no speed limits on lakes...wrong, Lake George for example has a SL of 45 MPH. He states that owners of $250K-$350K boats are some of the safest/responsible boaters around. Many would take issue with that given the Littlefield accident, the fatal accident occurring off Diamond island, or online bragging by an anti speed limit advocate regarding alcohol consumption. These are not hallmarks of responsible behavior.

People do not want another open invitation to have ocean going speed boats return to the Broads racing back and forth. The whole tenor of the lake has changed with implementation of the common sense 45/30 MPH speed limit. People want to enjoy all parts of the lake. They do not wish to recreate on an aquatic racetrack anymore than you would want to have a picnic on the median strip of I-93. Again, points 1-4 above show that the public agrees.

[LikeLakes]

Well said and as I said above, I don't think you are wrong. My stance on the limit actually isn't because of my boat, I rarely go over 45 anyway and the few times I do it's on a weekday in calm water with virtually nobody in any proximity to me. I just wonder about the research behind it. But, if most people want it, I don't have a strong enough objection to do anything more than accept it as the law.

[sunset on the dock]

Well said and as I said above, I don't think you are wrong. My stance on the limit actually isn't because of my boat, I rarely go over 45 anyway and the few times I do it's on a weekday in calm water with virtually nobody in any proximity to me. I just wonder about the research behind it. But, if most people want it, I don't have a strong enough objection to do anything more than accept it as the law.

And I appreciate your measured stance and open minded, even tempered approach. A good lesson for many who post on this forum. Thanks!

[TiltonBB]

Many would take issue with that given the Littlefield accident, the fatal accident occurring off Diamond island, or online bragging by an anti speed limit advocate regarding alcohol consumption. These are not hallmarks of responsible behavior.

People do not want another open invitation to have ocean going speed boats return to the Broads racing back and forth. The whole tenor of the lake has changed with implementation of the common sense 45/30 MPH speed limit. People want to enjoy all parts of the lake. They do not wish to recreate on an aquatic racetrack anymore than you would want to have a picnic on the median strip of I-93. Again, points 1-4 above show that the public agrees.

The accidents you cite had nothing to do with speed. The "feel good" speed law would not have prevented either accident.

"People do not want another open invitation to have ocean going speed boats return to the Broads racing back and forth."

That was never the case. I have been on the lake some part, or all, of every summer since 1970. Were there a few speed boats passing by now and again? Sure. Were there a significant number of speed related accidents? NO Two speed related incidents in 9 years is actually proof that speed is not, and has never been, a problem.

It is a feel good law for people who would like to see Winnipesaukee become Squam lake.

Almost every jet ski on the lake can exceed 45 MPH. Many can go over 60. Should we throw them off the lake too?

People should be a lot more concerned about the shoreline damage and noise cause by the wake boats. They are a bigger, growing, problem than a few speed boats ever were.

[sunset on the dock]

The accidents you cite had nothing to do with speed. The "feel good" speed law would not have prevented either accident.

"People do not want another open invitation to have ocean going speed boats return to the Broads racing back and forth."

That was never the case. I have been on the lake some part, or all, of every summer since 1970. Were there a few speed boats passing by now and again? Sure. Were there a significant number of speed related accidents? NO Two speed related incidents in 9 years is actually proof that speed is not, and has never been, a problem.

It is a feel good law for people who would like to see Winnipesaukee become Squam lake.

Almost every jet ski on the lake can exceed 45 MPH. Many can go over 60. Should we throw them off the lake too?

People should be a lot more concerned about the shoreline damage and noise cause by the wake boats. They are a bigger, growing, problem than a few speed boats ever were.

Nor did I say, intimate, suggest, or otherwise allude that it was speed. If you read my post carefully, I make the point that many would disagree with Rep. Bordes' contention that the owners of $250-$350K boats are some of the most safe and responsible boaters. The Littlefield and Blizzard accidents (both alcohol related), and an anti speed limit advocate boasting of excess alcohol consumption do not scream "safe and responsible behavior".

As far as PWC's that can go 60 MPH...fine, they can also go 45 MPH too.

But as said in my earlier post, points 1-4, the public (and the legislature) support our commonsense 45/30 speed limit.

I too have been on the lake since the 1970's. And the positive change in the last 10 years with our 45/30 speed limit has been immense.

[thinkxingu]

And the positive change in the last 10 years with our 45/30 speed limit has been immense.

Can you elaborate? I'm not being snarky, I'm just interested in the changes you've seen.

I've only been boating Winni since '14, but it seems like these last few years have been the "worst," and every single issue is something other than speed: bad/incapable docking, boats too close at the wrong speed (swamping), people unaware of where they are, etc.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[LIforrelaxin]

These threads still get out of hand I see...

Having been on the lake since 85, I can say that I have scene the speed limit do very little.... Hell when the decibel limit was first enacted, it did more to change the atmosphere of the lake then the speed limit.

I will also say that I see plenty of watercraft exceed the speed limit when it is safe to do so... (Probably some even when it is not so safe to do so).... in the end I think the legislation is still a waste of ink and the paper it was written on...

It is a feel good law, very hard to enforce, and quite honestly there are more important things for the MP to be spending their limited man power on.

As someone else mentioned, a feel less comfortable on the lake then I did just a few years ago, mainly because of the next generation of boaters, who don't seem to get the basic laws of the water, let alone worrying about their speed.

[TiltonBB]

Can you elaborate? I'm not being snarky, I'm just interested in the changes you've seen.

I've only been boating Winni since '14, but it seems like these last few years have been the "worst," and every single issue is something other than speed: bad/incapable docking, boats too close at the wrong speed (swamping), people unaware of where they are, etc.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

The biggest thing that has changed in the 50 plus years I have been on Winnipesaukee is the lake is busier now than it was many years ago. With that increase, I have noticed an increase of people who struggle docking, are unaware of how to properly trim a boat while underway, and are oblivious to the boats around them.

Nothing changed with the inception of the "feel good" speed limit. The speed limit had zero effect on safety on the lake. The only thing the speed limit fanatics couldn't point out is evidence that speed is, or was ever, a problem. That is why it makes no sense, it just makes them feel good. If there was evidence that speed was problem I would be glad to revisit the issue.

I am out on the lake a lot. Between 7 years operating tours 60 to 90 hours per year, and using my own boats in addition to that, I average over 300 hours per year on Winnipesaukee. I am fortunate to own a home that looks out at a wide area of the lake so I can see a lot and I am well aware of what is going on.

It is too bad there aren't better opportunities for people to learn about boat safety and handling but I am not sure the people who need the help would take advantage of it.

[chachee52]

But as said in my earlier post, points 1-4, the public (and the legislature) support our commonsense 45/30 speed limit.

I too have been on the lake since the 1970's. And the positive change in the last 10 years with our 45/30 speed limit has been immense.

Will agree to disagree that the lake is safer in the last 10 years. Growing up on the lake and boating the entire time. The I will definitely say I pick and choose the times I go out during the summer now compared to 10-15 years ago when I used to feel safe going out anytime in my 14 ft and then 18 ft boats. Now have a 25 ft and feel I'm playing dodge boat from others. As people have mentioned, it has nothing to do with speed, just people oblivious of what's going on.

And the argument that a majority of legislators support the speed limit is like saying "if everyone jumps off a bridge it must mean its a good idea". That just means the Legislators just don't care or they are getting some kind of kick back by someone?

The argument that speed limit is safer I think is what people are arguing, Its not, and there is no evidence that it is. Do a majority of people support a speed limit because a) their boats don't go above 45 anyway and B) even if their boat does go that fast, 99% of the time they don't. I think that is more the supporters of it. It just doesn't matter to people if there is a speed limit of not on the lake because it doesn't matter.

[sunset on the dock]

Will agree to disagree that the lake is safer in the last 10 years. Growing up on the lake and boating the entire time. The I will definitely say I pick and choose the times I go out during the summer now compared to 10-15 years ago when I used to feel safe going out anytime in my 14 ft and then 18 ft boats. Now have a 25 ft and feel I'm playing dodge boat from others. As people have mentioned, it has nothing to do with speed, just people oblivious of what's going on.

And the argument that a majority of legislators support the speed limit is like saying "if everyone jumps off a bridge it must mean its a good idea". That just means the Legislators just don't care or they are getting some kind of kick back by someone?

The argument that speed limit is safer I think is what people are arguing, Its not, and there is no evidence that it is. Do a majority of people support a speed limit because a) their boats don't go above 45 anyway and B) even if their boat does go that fast, 99% of the time they don't. I think that is more the supporters of it. It just doesn't matter to people if there is a speed limit of not on the lake because it doesn't matter.

Would you try once again please, this time in English.

[John Mercier]

In English, non-issue.

[fatlazyless]

Attention, all you Lake Winnipesaukee WACK-A-DOOZIES:

Going 45-mph in a boat on Lake Winnipesaukee is VERY fast and going any faster is totally WACK-A-DOOZIE!

Driving Rt 93 at 100-mph and driving Lake Winnipesaukee at speeds above 45-mph is totally WACK-A-DOOZIE ........ (period). ..... :laugh:

For all the sail boaters, kayaks, sup's, canoes, rowboats, and normal motor boats ...... the go fast - be loud boaters are a WACK-A-DOOZIE safety issue.

So, don't be a WACK-A-DOOZIE and obey the 45-mph speed limit!

[BroadHopper]

My opinion and a number of seasoned boaters who have been on the lake for decades can and will agree that the lake is more dangerous as the years go by. Overcrowdenous and lack of common sense are worst! I'm glad I am able to enjoy the other Lakes Region lakes on the weekends while the 'pesaukee yahoos take over. Off-season Winnipesaukee is OK.

Now if we can enforce the current laws and make the safety course more stringent with a refresher course every few years, it will go a long way.

Adding more laws without enforcement does not work!

[Garcia]

My opinion and a number of seasoned boaters who have been on the lake for decades can and will agree that the lake is more dangerous as the years go by. Overcrowdenous and lack of common sense are worst! I'm glad I am able to enjoy the other Lakes Region lakes on the weekends while the 'pesaukee yahoos take over. Off-season Winnipesaukee is OK.

Now if we can enforce the current laws and make the safety course more stringent with a refresher course every few years, it will go a long way.

Adding more laws without enforcement does not work!

I agree. Looking at the crowds on the water today, the last thing I think should happen is to get rid of the speed limit. If it were up to me (and I know it isn't) I would add resources ($$$) to the marine patrol to enable them to better enforce existing laws, create a stricter education/license program, and greatly increase the registration/lake fees on boats larger than 25 feet to help fund things. Popular and realistic? No.

[Descant]

I agree. Looking at the crowds on the water today, the last thing I think should happen is to get rid of the speed limit. If it were up to me (and I know it isn't) I would add resources ($$$) to the marine patrol to enable them to better enforce existing laws, create a stricter education/license program, and greatly increase the registration/lake fees on boats larger than 25 feet to help fund things. Popular and realistic? No.

You can increase funding to Marine Patrol by checking the box on your gas tax refund to go to the Navigation Safety Fund. It's a tax deductible donation. M Money aside, Marine Patrol always has staffing problems i.e. getting trained officers who can work 3-4 months a year.

[Bear Islander]

Attention, all you Lake Winnipesaukee WACK-A-DOOZIES:

Going 45-mph in a boat on Lake Winnipesaukee is VERY fast and going any faster is totally WACK-A-DOOZIE!

Driving Rt 93 at 100-mph and driving Lake Winnipesaukee at speeds above 45-mph is totally WACK-A-DOOZIE ........ (period). ..... :laugh:

For all the sail boaters, kayaks, sup's, canoes, rowboats, and normal motor boats ...... the go fast - be loud boaters are a WACK-A-DOOZIE safety issue.

So, don't be a WACK-A-DOOZIE and obey the 45-mph speed limit!

I think the word is WACK-A-DOODLE. I'd look it up but my dictionary does not speak Jive.

[fatlazyless]

While it's not a dictionary word, wack-a-doozie is all about how it sounds, especially when used with multi-syllable Lake Winnipesaukee.

Is a slang word..... wack-a ..... wack-a ..... wack-a .....out there on Lake Winnipesaukee ..... it's a wack-a-doozie type of a day! ..... ;):laugh:

Is Slang as Swell as It Used to Be? ........... Yas! ....... www.nytimes.com/2022/03/22/opinion/swell-slang.html

[LikeLakes]

It is too bad there aren't better opportunities for people to learn about boat safety and handling but I am not sure the people who need the help would take advantage of it.

Agree completely. Boat handling, knowing basic boating "rules of the road", are the real issues affecting safe boating on Winni. Some additional training would help.

Alcohol is a big factor but I view it differently. Passing too close to another boat, or cutting them off, or poor docking are a problem. Boating when drunk is criminal.

Speed simply isn't a safety factor IMO.

[sunset on the dock]

Agree completely. Boat handling, knowing basic boating "rules of the road", are the real issues affecting safe boating on Winni. Some additional training would help.

Alcohol is a big factor but I view it differently. Passing too close to another boat, or cutting them off, or poor docking are a problem. Boating when drunk is criminal.

Speed simply isn't a safety factor IMO.

Speed simply isn't a safety factor because the 45/30 limit is working. Hence the support by 6 marinas and the many organizations quoted earlier.

45 MPH + alcohol = very bad
75 MPH + alcohol = very bad X factor of 10

[Seaplane Pilot]

Speed simply isn't a safety factor because the 45/30 limit is working. Hence the support by 6 marinas and the many organizations quoted earlier.

45 MPH + alcohol = very bad
75 MPH + alcohol = very bad X factor of 10

Let me put it a different way: Speed wasn’t a safety issue before the completely useless speed limit became law. Speed is now not a factor after the completely useless speed limit has been law for many years.

[LikeLakes]

Speed simply isn't a safety factor because the 45/30 limit is working. Hence the support by 6 marinas and the many organizations quoted earlier.

45 MPH + alcohol = very bad
75 MPH + alcohol = very bad X factor of 10

Going back to where I started, which is that I just don't think there is much if any science behind the number 45 .... By your premise shouldn't they make the speed limit 30 mph, since 30 MPH + alcohol = less bad?

As I said, I separate alcohol usage from this because it is criminal, irresponsible behavior. We don't reduce the speed limit on our highways because it would make it safer when drunk drivers are on the road.

[codeman671]

75 MPH + alcohol = very bad X factor of 10

Can you cite an accident where this has been the actual case on Winnipesaukee? Both Littlefield and Blizzard's accidents were sub-45mph situations.

[sunset on the dock]

Going back to where I started, which is that I just don't think there is much if any science behind the number 45 .... By your premise shouldn't they make the speed limit 30 mph, since 30 MPH + alcohol = less bad?

As I said, I separate alcohol usage from this because it is criminal, irresponsible behavior. We don't reduce the speed limit on our highways because it would make it safer when drunk drivers are on the road.


And what is the science behind 70 MPH on the highway? Can you cite that? No we don't decrease the speed limit on our highways to make it safer when drunk drivers are on the road but neither do we increase or eliminate them like you want to on the lake.
As far as codeman's recent post, I think he missed the post about a swimmer being hit at 65+ MPH on Winni in 2015. And googling fatal high speed accidents on other lakes in other states might be a worthwhile endeavor for codeman.

But again...the present speed limit law, as said, is supported by 6 marinas, and 300 businesses when it was made permanent 11 years ago, and now several high profile lake organizations (LWA, NH Lakes Assoc., LRCT, LWSA, LPC, NHCDA). And 80% of the NH house in 2011. But of course every single one of these people and organizations must be terribly wrong/misguided ?!?

[granitebox]

And what is the science behind 70 MPH on the highway? Can you cite that? No we don't decrease the speed limit on our highways to make it safer when drunk drivers are on the road but neither do we increase or eliminate them like you want to on the lake.
As far as codeman's recent post, I think he missed the post about a swimmer being hit at 65+ MPH on Winni in 2015. And googling fatal high speed accidents on other lakes in other states might be a worthwhile endeavor for codeman.

But again...the present speed limit law, as said, is supported by 6 marinas, and 300 businesses when it was made permanent 11 years ago, and now several high profile lake organizations (LWA, NH Lakes Assoc., LRCT, LWSA, LPC, NHCDA). And 80% of the NH house in 2011. But of course every single one of these people and organizations must be terribly wrong/misguided ?!?

Speed limits have been increased in the United States and continue to be legislated - there are roads with speed limits of 85 mph in Texas. I'm not sure citing driving speed limits support lake speed limit argument.

[John Mercier]

In a way, they do.
The appropriate use and regulation of common property is usually more consensus among the masses.

With 1.3 million plus residents, some of never on the lake, the debate fall to what value to us as shareholders?

The 55 mph speed limit was to convince us to conserve fuel for the benefit of everyone including ourselves. Technology changes and so the factors lead to a different set of conclusions, that once accepted by the masses change the perception of what is the correct regulation.

[sunset on the dock]

Speed limits have been increased in the United States and continue to be legislated - there are roads with speed limits of 85 mph in Texas. I'm not sure citing driving speed limits support lake speed limit argument.

Texas square miles: 268. Lots of open roads.
NH Square miles: 9,349

Ocean square miles: 139 Million
Winnipesaukee square miles: 71

Texas and the ocean...let 'er rip.
NH and Winni...another story!

[TiltonBB]

Let me put it a different way: Speed wasn’t a safety issue before the completely useless speed limit became law. Speed is now not a factor after the completely useless speed limit has been law for many years.

You are missing the point: With the implementation of the speed limit nothing has changed with regard to safety on the lake. The speed limit just makes some people feel good. It's all about their feelings.

[LakeDad]

In a way, they do.
The appropriate use and regulation of common property is usually more consensus among the masses.

With 1.3 million plus residents, some of never on the lake, the debate fall to what value to us as shareholders?

The 55 mph speed limit was to convince us to conserve fuel for the benefit of everyone including ourselves. Technology changes and so the factors lead to a different set of conclusions, that once accepted by the masses change the perception of what is the correct regulation.


Anyone who drove 60-80s cars knows it could be hairy, even at 75-80 mph. Aerodynamics, braking, tires and stability were poor. Headlights were weak.

Today, even the most basic ****box can do a stable 100mph with 2 fingers on the wheel.

[John Mercier]

Correct.
But you still need to convince a majority - an probably not a near majority - that the change is acceptable.

There is no science - 45 mph, 42 mph, 48 mph - could have been any chosen number... the only science is psychology of the owners. Common property - 1.3 million plus owners.

[Boatbottom952]

How many boaters on the lake have actually been affected by this law? My guess is not many can or want to travel over 45MPH. My boat will do 40+/- mph at WOT and is a a very unpleasant ride. Course bass boats and cigarette style hull boats are designed for those high speed rides, but I'd guess they can't be very pleasurable either.

In the morning, when it's just a small chop or Flat smooth, 73 mph is quite awesome. The only thing you need to avoid is salmon guys. Flip the coin/ after 11am, No way to go that fast in a bass boat. Sometimes you hit so hard your butt cheeks are coming out your ears and your spine is 1 inch shorter.

[The Real BigGuy]

I have no problem with high speed boats. I’ve been in a friend’s Fountain 15 or so years ago doing in excess of 90. Second most exciting boat ride I have ever had. It isn’t speed that is the problem. The lake is much more crowded then it was years ago and pure probability would say there are more ass-hat operators on the lake then there were years ago.

If you could guarantee me that all people doing 75 + in the broads would have the common sense to slow down and operate safely around other boats in more congested areas I’d be all for upping the speed limit. Unfortunately, you can’t and a few of “me first” operators will ruin it for all. Witness all the “no wake”, “stand on”, & “150 ft” jugheads out there.

In summation, leave the damn speed limit where it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[Seaplane Pilot]

You are missing the point: With the implementation of the speed limit nothing has changed with regard to safety on the lake. The speed limit just makes some people feel good. It's all about their feelings.

I think that's what I was trying to say. We're on the same side of this issue, Tilton. Get rid of this useless law, and focus time and resources on issues that will actually improve safety.

[LikeLakes]

Anyone who drove 60-80s cars knows it could be hairy, even at 75-80 mph. Aerodynamics, braking, tires and stability were poor. Headlights were weak.

Today, even the most basic ****box can do a stable 100mph with 2 fingers on the wheel.

My '68 Olds F-85 that I drove in my early 20's would definitely have been offended by this post. :laugh:

[AltonCAM]

My '68 Olds F-85 that I drove in my early 20's would definitely have been offended by this post. :laugh:

Not as hairy as riding your mastodon 10,000 years ago at 75-80 mph.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[sunset on the dock]

Apparently another one of the co-sponsors has withdrawn his support for HB 1424 which means that 4 out of the original 6 co-sponsors no longer support this bill. This speaks volumes.

[sunset on the dock]

In today's LDS:


To The Daily Sun,

I am a professional mariner and hold the highest license issued by the U.S. Coast Guard, master. I have also attained master high speed vessel, master ocean fishing gross registered 5000 ton and master ocean towing 1600 ton. My entire adult life has been spent on the water as my career.

Over the past 30 years on Winnipesaukee, I have seen big changes, far more crowded, boaters that don’t know, understand or care about the rules, a lack of courtesy towards others, and a lack of empathy towards others sharing the same waterway.

As sad as it is to see what the lake is becoming, we did see some positive changes with the speed limit, some of the go-fast boats left, making room for families, pontoon boat sales have jumped, which have far less ecological impact on the lake than others. Many of those remaining decided that chancing running The Broads at 60 was better than being caught doing 90. Human nature dictates people will always go faster than posted, just like on our highways.


As a former operator of a commercial high-speed vessel in service to the U.S. Marine Corp., training, equipment and rules for high speed vessels are far different than what is required for operating ships at 20 knots. A three person watch must be in place, within reach of helm at all times, if the deck officer needs to get up, the engineer of the watch, or EOW, must be seated in the command chair. This is in open ocean at 40 knots, with the best equipment, not a lake, filled with small boat traffic, doing up to 100 mph. Boaters have no special training or equipment, just the money to go out and purchase 100 mph boats. Being on the lake is not “safer” than being on the roads. On the road we worry, about staying in our lane, and crossing traffic. On the lake that traffic can come from 360 degrees of approach. Boats have no “lookouts”, radar or ECDIS. Instead we have distractions such as children, spilling one's “drink” and objects shifting and moving about the boat with winds and motion. The lake has small spar buoys that are all but invisible at high speeds and shallows. Add in kayaks/canoes which are harder to see while traveling at high speed. Speed means less time to react, period, which is why professional mariners require special licenses and training.

Finally, we are destroying our lake. It is already overloaded, being polluted with unburned gas fumes. The faster you go the higher the fuel burn, horsepower required to speed is not linear. So, how long can we protect this incredibly valuable asset before it gets shut down to powerboats because of the damage done? Thirteen lakes have been shut down to powerboats in New York state because of pollution. Let’s do what we can to mitigate the damage from pollution and erosion while we can, while keeping the lake safer, cleaner, and more family friendly.


John Ratcliffe

Center Tuftonboro

[fatlazyless]

"Thirteen lakes have been shut down to powerboats in New York state because of pollution." .... from above post

One lake named Thirteenth Lake in Johnsburg NY and not thirteen lakes in New York state is probably more accurate. Thirteenth Lake allows electric trolling motors.

https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/outlakes/dec-proposes-to-ban-gas-motors-on-13th-lake

Is a wee bit confusing .... www.visitlakegeorge.com/recreation/thirteenth-lake .... with regard to "Thirteen Lakes have been shut down to powerboats ... "

[Boatbottom952]

"Thirteen lakes have been shut down to powerboats in New York state because of pollution." .... from above post

One lake named Thirteenth Lake in Johnsburg NY and not thirteen lakes in New York state is probably more accurate. Thirteenth Lake allows electric trolling motors.

https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/outlakes/dec-proposes-to-ban-gas-motors-on-13th-lake

Is a wee bit confusing .... www.visitlakegeorge.com/recreation/thirteenth-lake .... with regard to "Thirteen Lakes have been shut down to powerboats ... "



So, is it 13 different lakes that he's trying to make you believe and mis-lead the public like so many politicians do on purpose, or is that the name of ONE LAKE that has been shut down?

[fatlazyless]

In 2011 or 2012, one lake named Thirteenth Lake in Johnsburg, New York was closed to gasoline engines and limited to electric motors only.

Thirteenth Lake is 329-acres, at an elevation of 1673', located in the Siamese Ponds Wilderness Area with the lake shore predominantly State of New York owned lands classifies as wilderness. Some privately owned parcels adjoin the lake.

Private homeowners and others complained about noise, air pollution and water pollution issues.

www.fishbrain.com/fishing-waters/HNXD7_Lb/thirteenth-lake

[Descant]

So, is it 13 different lakes that he's trying to make you believe and mis-lead the public like so many politicians do on purpose, or is that the name of ONE LAKE that has been shut down?

FLL was just trolling and you took the bait. You'll get used to it in awhile. BTW, There are several NH lakes where power boats are prohibited, or where there are like 10 mph speed limits. They're listed in your rule book.

[fatlazyless]

The sentence in the quoted letter from John Ratcliffe that says " Thirteen lakes have been shut down to power boats in New York state because of pollution." is not a factual statement, and it probably was derived from the power boat shut-down on Thirteenth Lake.

......just say'n .... that's all ..... possibly a Google search showed that Thirteenth Lake in New York state was shut down and it got re-translated into thirteen lakes in New York state have been shut down.

[The Real BigGuy]

If you Google lakes shut down to powerboats several of various sizes, in various states, come up over past years for various reasons such as erosion, pollution, etc. Most appear to be temporary closures.


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[John Mercier]

I think we may be looking at fitting more and more people into a finite space.

[Boatbottom952]

The sentence in the quoted letter from John Ratcliffe that says " Thirteen lakes have been shut down to power boats in New York state because of pollution." is not a factual statement, and it probably was derived from the power boat shut-down on Thirteenth Lake.

......just say'n .... that's all ..... possibly a Google search showed that Thirteenth Lake in New York state was shut down and it got re-translated into thirteen lakes in New York state have been shut down.

I knew the answer before I wrote the question. Was waiting for a response from that thread starter. Yes FLL, it was done with intent. It sounds much better to some to say it that way.

[sunset on the dock]

This just came to my in box. HB 1424 has been defeated today, apparently with a loud enough majority voice vote that a roll call vote was not done. Rep. Bordes, the sponsor of the bill, chose not to speak. And with a vote of 15:3 against the bill in the Transportation Committee and with the defection of 4 of the bill's 6 original co-sponsors the outcome should surprise no one. There was significant bipartisan support for our present 45/30 speed limit law.

Dear 45/30 Supporters:

We are pleased to report that the NH House has voted “Inexpedient to Legislate” (ITL) on HB 1424. This action grants final approval to the Transportation Committee recommendation to kill the bill. The House action ensures the current speed limit law will remain in place.

Today’s vote was conducted by voice only, so no record or roll call will be available.