Cost of fuel...

[garysanfran]

It's going to be interesting to see what effect high fuel costs will have on boating this summer. The demand for boats last year, combined with people taking local vacations, made the lake traffic busy.

[Descant]

I filled the tanks last October, should be good for most of 2022 until time to fill again. Regardless of price, fuel is a small part of the total cost of running my boat.

[BoatHouse]

I believe the Ave price for Summer 2021 on the lake was $3.89 - $3.99. Given the gas prices have risen about $0.25/gallon since early October, we are looking at $4.25 per gallon for Summer 2022. That is if gas prices stay flat.

If the ave price for gas on the lake is $4.25, I do not see people dumping their boats.

Maybe if the price goes above $5.00 things will be different.

IFF there are no geopolitical incidents, I believe there is actually a good chance the price will go down slightly by summer as US oil production continues to increase.

[NH.Solar]

If the situation in the Ukraine does blow up, the lake will be again a very quiet and peaceful place. $5 a gallon this summer? or maybe even more??

[tbonies]

It's going to be interesting to see what effect high fuel costs will have on boating this summer. The demand for boats last year, combined with people taking local vacations, made the lake traffic busy.

If a person who owns a boat bases usage on how much fuel costs, should that person REALLY have a boat?

[camp guy]

Are you paraphrasing "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" ?

[codeman671]

If the situation in the Ukraine does blow up, the lake will be again a very quiet and peaceful place. $5 a gallon this summer? or maybe even more??

People are tired of being cooped up and hiding from covid. I don't think $5.00 per gallon gas will quiet things down. For me? Not at all. I might tell the kids to take it a bit easier on the jet skis, or make them haul it from the gas station instead of filling at the marinas, but it won't change my summer.

[garysanfran]

Obviously the answer depends on how much one uses their boat. A tank of gas will last me quite a while. My neighbor spends several hours every day... pulling water skiers. Back-and-forth...forth-and-back...from left-to-right...right-to-left...

The cost won't affect me much....But I'm thinking my neighbor will reset the day's schedule a bit.

[John Mercier]

People are tired of being cooped up and hiding from covid. I don't think $5.00 per gallon gas will quiet things down. For me? Not at all. I might tell the kids to take it a bit easier on the jet skis, or make them haul it from the gas station instead of filling at the marinas, but it won't change my summer.
I didn't change my lifestyle at all for covid; but I do think that high gasoline prices would calm down the economy at the margins.

[Loventhelake]

It’s January with temps in the negative… new and used boats at the marina I work at have been flying out the door. Over 10 boats sold last week alone, I don’t think anyone is really concerned with what gas prices are or will be in the upcoming season.

[John Mercier]

But they will complain about it.

[Descant]

If these are new boat owners, they probably haven't learned to think in terms of 30 gph at WOT vs. 2gph at 8 knots.

[Dave R]

If these are new boat owners, they probably haven't learned to think in terms of 30 gph at WOT vs. 2gph at 8 knots.

Not many boats on the lake are going to achieve 2gph at 8 knots (though pontoons might be able to, I don't know much about them). That's 50' single (small) diesel trawler territory. A typical lake boat that can actually burn 30 GPH (that's around 400 propshaft HP for gas) is going to maybe see 4 knots at 2GPH.

A few years ago, when gas was around 4 bucks a gallon on the street, we often saw people cruising around at 7 to 12 knots in <30' v-hull boats. That's literally the worst possible speed range for MPG in boats like that. Either run at idle or cleanly on plane at around 50-60% power (or faster). My last boat, a 25' deep V with a Bravo 3 I/O got 2 MPG at 50 MPH (43 knots and WOT). It got 1.4 MPG at 10 MPH (8.6 knots). At around 30MPH, it got around 2.6 MPG on average.

[lakewinnie]

Not many boats on the lake are going to achieve 2gph at 8 knots (though pontoons might be able to, I don't know much about them). That's 50' single (small) diesel trawler territory. A typical lake boat that can actually burn 30 GPH (that's around 400 propshaft HP for gas) is going to maybe see 4 knots at 2GPH.

A few years ago, when gas was around 4 bucks a gallon on the street, we often saw people cruising around at 7 to 12 knots in <30' v-hull boats. That's literally the worst possible speed range for MPG in boats like that. Either run at idle or cleanly on plane at around 50-60% power (or faster). My last boat, a 25' deep V with a Bravo 3 I/O got 2 MPG at 50 MPH (43 knots and WOT). It got 1.4 MPG at 10 MPH (8.6 knots). At around 30MPH, it got around 2.6 MPG on average.

I'm not sure how this equates to MPG, but I get around 5 GPH at 30 MPH in my 24 foot Four Winns bowrider with the 5.3 liter Volvo Penta. That seems to be the sweet spot.

[John Mercier]

If the situation in the Ukraine does blow up, the lake will be again a very quiet and peaceful place. $5 a gallon this summer? or maybe even more??

It could get there without anything happening in the Ukraine. When a barrel of WTI almost reached $150, we had a much less vigorous GDP growth.

[Dave R]

I'm not sure how this equates to MPG, but I get around 5 GPH at 30 MPH in my 24 foot Four Winns bowrider with the 5.3 liter Volvo Penta. That seems to be the sweet spot.

Just divide the MPH by the GPH to get MPG. 30/5=6 so 6 MPG.

6MPG in a 24 foot bowrider seems pretty optimistic though.

Assuming you have a 300 HP 5.3, I'd expect the top speed to be close to 50 MPH. Since drag is a function of the square of speed we can calculate the HP needed to go 30MPH if the boat tops out at 50MPH

50x50=2500 2500/300=8.33
30x30=900 900/8.33 = 108 HP

It takes roughly .08GPH to make 1 HP so 108 HP would require 8.64 GPH so I think you are getting around 3.5 MPG, 30/8.64= 3.5

[steve-on-mark]

Way to cerebral for my feeble mind...my aft mounted fuel tanks are plastic and see through, so when they get low I break out the 5 gallon gas can. I use roughly a gallon of fuel back and forth to Glendale or Mt. View, but I'm not breaking any speed records.

[lakewinnie]

Just divide the MPH by the GPH to get MPG. 30/5=6 so 6 MPG.

6MPG in a 24 foot bowrider seems pretty optimistic though.

Assuming you have a 300 HP 5.3, I'd expect the top speed to be close to 50 MPH. Since drag is a function of the square of speed we can calculate the HP needed to go 30MPH if the boat tops out at 50MPH

50x50=2500 2500/300=8.33
30x30=900 900/8.33 = 108 HP

It takes roughly .08GPH to make 1 HP so 108 HP would require 8.64 GPH so I think you are getting around 3.5 MPG, 30/8.64= 3.5

I think most of your assumptions are spot on - with my current prop setup, my top speed is just a little over 50 mph.

I may be too simplistic in my approach here, but I basically take the gallons used in filling up the tank divided by the engine hours between fill-ups. I've been doing this since I bought the boat, and I have about 320 engine hours. With this math, I usually come out between 5 and 6 when I haven't been towing skiers, tubers, etc. When not towing, my cruising speed in decent conditions is usually around 30 mph. Not too scientific, and probably not very accurate.

[upthesaukee]

When I had a Sunbird with a 135 HP Optimax outboard installed, it had a Mercury smart guide installed in place of the regular speedometer. It had a speedometer, fuel flow g/h, gallons used, functions, among others.

I found it helpful to find that sweet spot for speed and economy. Also, the fuel used gave a better idea of fuel remaining, not that I would want to run it down to one gallon left. :D

Dave

[swnoel]

Are you paraphrasing "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" ?
Boom! Kind of like those owning lake front property complaining about their property taxes.

[thinkxingu]

Boom! Kind of like those owning lake front property complaining about their property taxes.Ummmm...I totally disagree.

There are so many longtime lakefront owners who have gotten crushed from the increased taxes and, including some members here, who have lost homes that have been in their families for generations as a result.

Also, there are many, many families who have been priced out of boating these last years, and that's troublesome to me as well.

I get the math and value and all that jazz, but I think it's totally reasonable to have an issue with costs rising so exponentially that swaths of people lose access or have to forgo other important things to cover the increased costs.

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[NH.Solar]

Here is a recent prop innovation that may help to stretch the ol' fuel economy, Sharrow propellers (https://www.sharrowmarine.com/).
Strangest looking prop I've ever seen but who is to say that mobius strip blades won't work? I find this prop absolutely fascinating and apparently so does the commercial marine world. Stay tuned...

[Dave R]

Here is a recent prop innovation that may help to stretch the ol' fuel economy, Sharrow propellers (https://www.sharrowmarine.com/).
Strangest looking prop I've ever seen but who is to say that mobius strip blades won't work? I find this prop absolutely fascinating and apparently so does the commercial marine world. Stay tuned...

Those are really cool and do seem to work as advertised, based on two articles I have read. They sure are proud of them though; yikes, the prices are eye-watering!

[John Mercier]

Ummmm...I totally disagree.

There are so many longtime lakefront owners who have gotten crushed from the increased taxes and, including some members here, who have lost homes that have been in their families for generations as a result.

Also, there are many, many families who have been priced out of boating these last years, and that's troublesome to me as well.

I get the math and value and all that jazz, but I think it's totally reasonable to have an issue with costs rising so exponentially that swaths of people lose access or have to forgo other important things to cover the increased costs.

Sent from my SM-G950U using TapatalkBut they are not forgoing other important things.
I see this all the time. People that can't afford their rent purchasing all sorts of ''toys''.
It is a choice they are making.
In 1995, Polaris and Bombardier requested independent studies on the future direction of their businesses. In 1998, they publicly released that information at the International Snowmobile Congress... most people left the room as they thought they were going to speak of global warming.
They didn't.

They spoke of the recent change to financing their own products and discovering how financially unstable those seeking their products really were.
After that, they locked the data until a shareholder lawsuit forced Polaris to release it. Bombardier, instead, chose to spin off the recreational division... that later had to go to bankruptcy due to poor management.

It was some of the earliest data that the anyone had bothered to correlate telling them that even after Reagan and O'Neil had warned Americans that savings Social Security under the Greenspan Commission plan meant the Americans would really need to focus more on retirement saving... and simply were not.

That data is not at this time eye-opening... but a lakefront home, or even a vacation home, is a luxury. Those that have saved millions for retirement and can keep the home up... pass it along without burden... and put their children/grandchildren in a position to continue to afford its upkeep... more power to them. For the rest, it is just a luxury that may be unreasonable.

It happens throughout the system.

[FlyingScot]

Ummmm...I totally disagree.

There are so many longtime lakefront owners who have gotten crushed from the increased taxes and, including some members here, who have lost homes that have been in their families for generations as a result.

Also, there are many, many families who have been priced out of boating these last years, and that's troublesome to me as well.

I get the math and value and all that jazz, but I think it's totally reasonable to have an issue with costs rising so exponentially that swaths of people lose access or have to forgo other important things to cover the increased costs.

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I agree that lake prices are rising too fast for the general good. I also agree that lots of people complain about property taxes and assert that they are forced to sell.

But like snowel, I do not believe these people who are doing the asserting that property taxes have forced them out of a place that's been in the family for generations. These multi-generational homes are worth 10X (30X?) what grandpa paid. Even for a modest home, we might call that a $1MM windfall. That potential cash might be too much to resist selling the house, but let's not call it forced by the evil taxman. Rent it for 2-3 weeks in July, then drive up for the rest of the summer and thank God for grandpa's good sense

[garysanfran]

I agree that lake prices are rising too fast for the general good. I also agree that lots of people complain about property taxes and assert that they are forced to sell.

But like snowel, I do not believe these people who are doing the asserting that property taxes have forced them out of a place that's been in the family for generations. These multi-generational homes are worth 10X (30X?) what grandpa paid. Even for a modest home, we might call that a $1MM windfall. That potential cash might be too much to resist selling the house, but let's not call it forced by the evil taxman. Rent it for 2-3 weeks in July, then drive up for the rest of the summer and thank God for grandpa's good sense

You can't pay taxes with equity unless you borrow against it. Renting your place to pay taxes means you have to go elsewhere, can't have nice things and it will put you in a higher tax bracket. No one should be taxed out of their homes and it happened to every one of my neighbors over 60 years.

[camp guy]

The real, hard cold facts about fuel for boating can drive you crazy trying to figure out the details. The basic, simplest rule is: When you see a marina, fuel up, when you see the next marina (guess what) fuel up. I sold my boat several years ago, and truthfully, don't miss it.

[John Mercier]

You can't pay taxes with equity unless you borrow against it. Renting your place to pay taxes means you have to go elsewhere, can't have nice things and it will put you in a higher tax bracket. No one should be taxed out of their homes and it happened to every one of my neighbors over 60 years.
They weren't saving enough for retirement.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-right-retirement-formula-is-based-on-the-value-of-your-home-2019-03-20#:~:text=Take%20the%20market%20value%20of%20your %20house%2C%20and,a%20house%20whose%20market%20val ue%20is%20%241.4%20million.

[Dave R]

You can't pay taxes with equity unless you borrow against it. Renting your place to pay taxes means you have to go elsewhere, can't have nice things and it will put you in a higher tax bracket. No one should be taxed out of their homes and it happened to every one of my neighbors over 60 years.

We have friends that live year round in a Hampton Beach condo and they have Summers off from work. They advertise the condo on AirB&B at a really high nightly price and rent it out (last minute due to the high price) about 20 nights a Summer. When it's rented out, they simply take a road trip somewhere and stay in hotels or with family/friends. Those 20 nights easily pay all their expenses for the road trips, and all their property taxes.

If people somehow forgot that property taxes almost never go down and don't plan for increases, there are creative ways to cover the costs.

If people bought boats in 2020 thinking marine diesel was always going to cost $1.49 a gallon, they didn't really plan well.

[Descant]

We have friends that live year round in a Hampton Beach condo and they have Summers off from work. They advertise the condo on AirB&B at a really high nightly price and rent it out (last minute due to the high price) about 20 nights a Summer. When it's rented out, they simply take a road trip somewhere and stay in hotels or with family/friends. Those 20 nights easily pay all their expenses for the road trips, and all their property taxes.

If people somehow forgot that property taxes almost never go down and don't plan for increases, there are creative ways to cover the costs.

If people bought boats in 2020 thinking marine diesel was always going to cost $1.49 a gallon, they didn't really plan well.


Where is $1.49?? Here's a trip from NJ to Great Bay, July 2020.

Captain Bills Landing (1st fuel up in Pt Pleasant NJ) 240 gallons at 2.60 per Gallon 624.00
Oakland Marina (2nd fuel up) Oakland marina NY 153 gallons at 2.60 per gallon 398.00
Town of Sandwich (3rd fill up 220 gallons at 2.25)
Great Bay Marina was also about $2.60 but I can't find that receipt easily.
Compare:
Price at MVYC in Sept 2021 was 3.98; $4.49 at Y Landing October 6 2021.

[garysanfran]

We have friends that live year round in a Hampton Beach condo and they have Summers off from work. They advertise the condo on AirB&B at a really high nightly price and rent it out (last minute due to the high price) about 20 nights a Summer. When it's rented out, they simply take a road trip somewhere and stay in hotels or with family/friends. Those 20 nights easily pay all their expenses for the road trips, and all their property taxes.

If people somehow forgot that property taxes almost never go down and don't plan for increases, there are creative ways to cover the costs.

If people bought boats in 2020 thinking marine diesel was always going to cost $1.49 a gallon, they didn't really plan well.

What a PITA that must be. Last minute rental and they have to vacate and remove all valuables? Where do they keep copies of their tax returns? Gotta remove them! Empty closets, etc. Just to pay your taxes...I hope where they live is worth that effort.

[MeredithMan]

The previous owners of our Meredith place lived there full time. It was their primary and only home. They rented it for the entire month of August to pay the taxes. They indicated that they would take all their personal stuff and cram it into their walk-in closet which they could lock from the inside. They were, (and still are), working full time, so I don't know where they went, but it wasn't on vacation.

It's one thing if you have a place as a rental/investment property, but the thought of total strangers being in my home and touching and using my things, gives me the heebie-jeebies.

[John Mercier]

They will suffer from the cost of fuel also.
People will choose to vacation closer to home.

History has shown that oil futures are a better inflation hedge than gold...
And that when consumers must pay a lot more for fuel they tend to offset travel.

Building suppliers notice the increase expenditures toward yards, which is what we are already setting up for.

[Dave R]

They will suffer from the cost of fuel also.
People will choose to vacation closer to home.

History has shown that oil futures are a better inflation hedge than gold...
And that when consumers must a lot more for fuel they tend to offset travel.

Building suppliers notice the increase expenditures toward yards, which is what we are already setting up for.

Assuming you are referring to my Hampton Beach friends, I don't think fuel costs will negatively affect Summer business at all. Historically, the vast majority of tourists in Hampton Beach aren't traveling long distances to get there and many local folks that put off travel due to high fuel costs will take vacations closer to home. It's the Wal Mart of vacation spots, it thrives regardless of economic conditions.

[Dave R]

Where is $1.49?? Here's a trip from NJ to Great Bay, July 2020.

Captain Bills Landing (1st fuel up in Pt Pleasant NJ) 240 gallons at 2.60 per Gallon 624.00
Oakland Marina (2nd fuel up) Oakland marina NY 153 gallons at 2.60 per gallon 398.00
Town of Sandwich (3rd fill up 220 gallons at 2.25)
Great Bay Marina was also about $2.60 but I can't find that receipt easily.
Compare:
Price at MVYC in Sept 2021 was 3.98; $4.49 at Y Landing October 6 2021.

Yankee Fisherman's Co Op in Seabrook (right across the harbor from our slip) was selling diesel for $1.49 in May and June of 2020. I think it went up to $1.99 by the end of the Summer. They don't advertise and the fuel dock is not exactly obvious. My boat has a 1000 mile range at my typical 8.5 knot cruise, so I buy the vast majority of my fuel there.

Was that you in the Chris Craft that I said hi to in Gosport Harbor late last season?

[Dave R]

What a PITA that must be. Last minute rental and they have to vacate and remove all valuables? Where do they keep copies of their tax returns? Gotta remove them! Empty closets, etc. Just to pay your taxes...I hope where they live is worth that effort.

They have it setup such that it's ready to rent all the time. They live simply and travel light. They have no sentimentality about the condo or much of anything in the condo, it's like a hotel room to them. I am pretty sure they can easily afford the taxes and such without renting, it's just a nifty way to make a few bucks and let someone else pay the bills.

FWIW, my wife and I do something similar. We sold our (empty nest) house and the vast majority of of large belongings in Summer of 2020 and moved aboard our boat in Hampton Beach. We moved into a rented Hampton Beach Condo in Fall 2020 and moved back to the boat in Spring 2021 right after we bought the condo we were living in. We rented out the condo on AirBnB the entire time we were on the boat in 2021 and are doing it again this year (lots of repeat customers are booking it up already). It worked out really well for us and the rentals pay the vast majority of our condo bills for the year. We have a property manager that takes care of everything to do with the rentals.

Like our friends, we have no sentimentality about the condo; it's just a place to to live and the few valuables we have here go in storage or on the boat while the condo is rented out. Living like this is certainly not for everyone, but we are have the time of our lives. No more snow to manage, no firewood to process, no well pump to deal with, no roof to replace, no septic system to maintain, no lawn to mow, no leaves to rake, no garden to weed, no mulch to spread etc. We just pay a trivial monthly HOA fee and everything is taken care of.

Maintaining and improving the boat absorbs a lot of my time, but it's a labor of love and nowhere near as time consuming as the house and yard were. Maintaining and improving the boat is also giving me a tremendous knowledge of all the systems on board and I'm certain that will come in handy when the boat inevitably needs repair in some exotic location.

My wife and I both think last Summer was the best Summer of our lives. Releasing the lines and heading out for a week or two of Summer cruising on the New England coast is the best. The only "regret" while cruising was that we were missing out on the shenanigans with friends at the marina while we were gone. Fortunately, by the end of the season, said friends were joining us on their own boats. Anchoring for a few days in a beautiful harbor with a group of like-minded friends in a flotilla is wicked fun. We all use our dinghies to go to shore or to gather on each other's boats and have dinners together.

[fatlazyless]

Just purchased one single gallon of hi-test, 91-octane Irving $4.19 gasoline for the Troy-Bilt 24" snowblower, plus replaced the spark plug and old yucky engine oil in anticipation for today's Friday, February 25 prediction for 8-12" snowfall. On Wednesday it was like 60-degrees, sunny, and warm; a fine day to work on the snowblower, outdoors.

The Motorcraft replacement spark plug cost something like $1.49 at Walmart.

First time ever that I spent the big money on hi-test gasoline to coax a little stronger performance out of the old snowblower.

It was money well spent! ..... $4.19 .... :D ..... hey, it's a high priority DEEP snowfall item! .... :laugh:

To power up the kayak and the sup this coming spring & summer will stick with that reliable energy source ..... a box of breakfast cereal ...... Quaker 'Simply Granola' .... with milk .... same price as hi-test at $4.19/box.

[Charlie T]

Just purchased one single gallon of hi-test, 91-octane Irving $4.19 gasoline for the Troy-Bilt 24" snowblower, plus replaced the spark plug and old yucky engine oil in anticipation for today's Friday, February 25 prediction for 8-12" snowfall. On Wednesday it was like 60-degrees, sunny, and warm; a fine day to work on the snowblower, outdoors.

.

First time ever that I spent the big money on hi-test gasoline to coax a little stronger performance out of the old snowblower.



I hate to break it to you but it's a common and mistaken belief that High Octane fuel will provide you with more power. The high octane gas contains more "knock inhibitors" to prevent pre ignition in higher compression engines which have the potential to make more HP. Those knock inhibitors take up "space" in the gallon of gasoline that would otherwise contain hydrocarbons that contain energy. Essentially a gallon of 91 contains fewer BTU's (energy) than a gallon of 87. Most small equipment engine manufacturers specifically recommend against higher octane fuel as it gives poorer performance than "regular".

[John Mercier]

I think I might shovel more this storm... I need the exercise.

[fatlazyless]

I hate to break it to you but it's a common and mistaken belief that High Octane fuel will provide you with more power. The high octane gas contains more "knock inhibitors" to prevent pre ignition in higher compression engines which have the potential to make more HP. Those knock inhibitors take up "space" in the gallon of gasoline that would otherwise contain hydrocarbons that contain energy. Essentially a gallon of 91 contains fewer BTU's (energy) than a gallon of 87. Most small equipment engine manufacturers specifically recommend against higher octane fuel as it gives poorer performance than "regular".

Thanks for the info. My gas container only holds one gallon of gasoline so's I should use it in the Subaru and go get a real non-ethanol single gallon from that 603-Gas in M-boro, tomorrow, after this snow storm is done for the snowblower and possibly the lawn mower & weed-wacker. Thinking a one gallon container will keep it more fresh than a larger container.

With 12" snow forecast, is smart to get out there and do the driveway ahead of the storm, before the snow falls ....... duh!!!!

[John Mercier]

If the gasoline is being used right away... ethanol or non-ethanol shouldn't matter.

It seems to be when it sits for a long time the ethanol degrades from the humid air.

[BoatHouse]

Well - It looks like the price of gas on the lake could be well over $5.00/Gallon. Maybe closer to $6.00.

Now that may keep people from going W.O.T. and pulling the kids on tubes.

I have already set the stage for my summer visitors to expect short trips and lots of Anchor time. :-)

[WinnisquamZ]

“Passing the hat” on tubing days


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[Lake Fan]

The way things are going I think automobile gas will soon be $5.00 or $6.00 a gallon. If that's the case, marina gas could be $7.00 or more easily.

Should be more elbow room at Braun Bay this summer.


Well - It looks like the price of gas on the lake could be well over $5.00/Gallon. Maybe closer to $6.00.

Now that may keep people from going W.O.T. and pulling the kids on tubes.

I have already set the stage for my summer visitors to expect short trips and lots of Anchor time. :-)

[AC2717]

over the weekend my family was put on notice by me that we will only be taking 1 car to NH unless not going on the same day, otherwise if we get there at 10pm we get there at 10pm waiting for everyone. No more 2/3 cars heading to the same location 100 miles away for now:rolleye1:.

There goes my sunsets alone

[BoatHouse]

over the weekend my family was put on notice by me that we will only be taking 1 car to NH unless not going on the same day, otherwise if we get there at 10pm we get there at 10pm waiting for everyone. No more 2/3 cars heading to the same location 100 miles away for now:rolleye1:.



There goes my sunsets alone



I was thinking the exact same thing!


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[thinkxingu]

I was thinking the exact same thing!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)Ditto, which makes me wonder what traffic will be like...or wait times at restaurants...

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[LIforrelaxin]

Given the pandemic, and now this gas price issue. It is likely going to mean continued struggles for some NH businesses.

Myself it looks like the truck will stay home more and we will take the wifes car more often. As for boating, the season is short, and for everything else there is Mastercard....

[SAB1]

I think if gas hits $6 or $ 7 a gallon here there will be larger issues than boat gas…..

[Descant]

Some think this is supply and demand, but recall there are folks in DC who think this is exactly what we need to reduce carbon footprint and they have effectively eliminated enough supply to do away with a free market economy. I just don't understand how those folks can have so much money and not want to own a boat. Maybe they are just guests on other peoples/lobbyists boats?

[TiltonBB]

Some think this is supply and demand, but recall there are folks in DC who think this is exactly what we need to reduce carbon footprint and they have effectively eliminated enough supply to do away with a free market economy. I just don't understand how those folks can have so much money and not want to own a boat. Maybe they are just guests on other peoples/lobbyists boats?
Everyone is different.

Some of us love our time on our boats, and we are not on our boats, we are thinking about the next time we can be.

Many of us love our time at the lake, and when we are not there, look forward to the next time we can be.

But, we have to remember, many people would be just as happy to stand at the Museum of Fine arts and stare at a picture, and wish they could own it. (In my mind, that is just because no one ever took them out on Lake Winnipesaukee in a boat. Who wouldn't love that?) :)

[John Mercier]

Recreational boats are a bad investment unless you are a manufacturer or salesperson.

Oil hasn't been a free market since OPEC was created before I was born.
To effectively control the price of oil, you need to be an exporting country.

''In our February 2022 Short-Term Energy Outlook (STEO), we forecast that crude oil prices will remain high enough to drive U.S. crude oil production to record-high levels in 2023, reaching a forecast 12.6 million barrels per day (b/d). We expect new production in the Permian Basin to drive overall U.S. crude oil production growth.
In the February STEO, we forecast that U.S. crude oil production will increase to 12.0 million b/d in 2022, up 760,000 b/d from 2021. We forecast that crude oil production in the United States will rise by 630,000 b/d in 2023 to average 12.6 million b/d. We expect more than 80% of that crude oil production growth to come from the Lower 48 states (L48), which does not include production from Alaska and the Federal Offshore Gulf of Mexico.
Production from new L48 wells, particularly in the Permian region, drive our forecast of U.S. crude oil production growth. Legacy production, or crude oil production from existing wells, typically declines relatively quickly in tight oil formations, and we expect that production from new wells will offset these legacy production declines.
Crude oil prices have generally increased since April 2020, resulting in increased crude oil production. The Brent spot price for crude oil (the international benchmark) reached $97 per barrel (b) on February 7, 2022, the highest nominal price (not adjusted for inflation) since September 17, 2014.
From January 8, 2021, to February 7, 2022, the L48 added 220 oil-directed rigs, 114 of which were in the Permian region. We forecast that production in the Permian region will average 5.3 million b/d in 2022 and 5.7 million b/d in 2023.''

Doesn't seem to be any problem other than low prices that limited US oil production. If OPEC doesn't pump... then US drillers will.
Will OPEC pump to knock out those US drillers... maybe... but we will have to see.

[WinnisquamZ]

I think if gas hits $6 or $ 7 a gallon here there will be larger issues than boat gas…..

Can’t disagree


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[Boatbottom952]

Can’t disagree


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They're talking $200 a barrel for Oil. $7-8 dollars a Gallon if that happens.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Pretty soon you’ll see the Witches turned into a massive charging station for your electric boats. What a perfect world it will be… (tongue is in cheek).

I say:

DRILL - BABY - DRILL !

[MeredithMan]

Recreational boats are a bad investment unless you are a manufacturer or salesperson.

True 'dat, as the hip people say. They're not an investment at all, unless it's maybe a 1930's mahogany Chris Craft or something of that ilk. The only "return" you'll get is enjoyment; no different than spending money on any other hobby or sport that you do in your down-time. Maybe one difference though...boats are now so darn expensive to buy/keep/maintain...that's where some folks get in over their heads financially.

[mswlogo]

It’s about time it’s priced what it should be.

I don’t care if it’s $10/gallon personally.
I’m 99% Solar for all energy needs.

But I do care how much it impacts the economy.
And care about families that simply can’t afford it.

Such a sudden change is never good.
Pleasure Boats are the last problem.

I had wished they taxed the hell out of gas while it was cheap to help fund desperately needed road / bridge reconstruction. And alternative fuels so that we are less dependent on oil.

[MAXUM]

It’s about time it’s priced what it should be.

I don’t care if it’s $10/gallon personally.
I’m 99% Solar for all energy needs.

But I do care how much it impacts the economy.
And care about families that simply can’t afford it.

Such a sudden change is never good.
Pleasure Boats are the last problem.

I had wished they taxed the hell out of gas while it was cheap to help fund desperately needed road / bridge reconstruction. And alternative fuels so that we are less dependent on oil.


Yes just don't pay attention to the fact that those solar panels are made of highly toxic materials and the manufacturing process isn't exactly environmentally friendly, but that's OK it's done out of sight in China so who cares. And this stuff is being thrown in landfills that are NIMBY.

Just like the EVs, don't pay any attention to the extremely harmful strip mining (overseas so out of sight out of mind) that is occurring to get the raw materials to make batteries that too are highly toxic to manufacture and recycle\dispose of.

When we as a nation are committing economic suicide to virtue signal how "green" we are and to do so turning a blind eye to the environmental impacts that occur elsewhere to do it.... it's comically hypocritical. This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.

[Garcia]

This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.

Who are they - and where are they?:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[FlyingScot]

Yes just don't pay attention to the fact that those solar panels are made of highly toxic materials and the manufacturing process isn't exactly environmentally friendly, but that's OK it's done out of sight in China so who cares. And this stuff is being thrown in landfills that are NIMBY.

Just like the EVs, don't pay any attention to the extremely harmful strip mining (overseas so out of sight out of mind) that is occurring to get the raw materials to make batteries that too are highly toxic to manufacture and recycle\dispose of.

When we as a nation are committing economic suicide to virtue signal how "green" we are and to do so turning a blind eye to the environmental impacts that occur elsewhere to do it.... it's comically hypocritical. This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.

Standard oil industry misinformation. Every reputable study shows huge environmental benefits to both solar and EVs, even after taking these points into account.

A related issue that does not require scientific analysis--the economic benefits to homes and businesses with solar panels were huge even before the price run up. Now they are massive.

As msw points out--if you have solar, heat pumps, and an EV, jumps in oil prices have virtually no impact on your wallet. I'm pretty sure that last year my net energy bill for a 3,000 sq ft house in Mass plus an electric car was a negative number--I received more in green energy credits than I paid for heat, lights, and gasoline. I'm an extreme case, but for anyone with a house in a sunny spot, solar panels are like an ATM on the roof

[MAXUM]

Standard oil industry misinformation. Every reputable study shows huge environmental benefits to both solar and EVs, even after taking these points into account.

A related issue that does not require scientific analysis--the economic benefits to homes and businesses with solar panels were huge even before the price run up. Now they are massive.

As msw points out--if you have solar, heat pumps, and an EV, jumps in oil prices have virtually no impact on your wallet. I'm pretty sure that last year my net energy bill for a 3,000 sq ft house in Mass plus an electric car was a negative number--I received more in green energy credits than I paid for heat, lights, and gasoline. I'm an extreme case, but for anyone with a house in a sunny spot, solar panels are like an ATM on the roof

This has nothing to do with oil.... you may find this story rather interesting.

My electric bill right now is running me about $25.00 per month here in Idaho. Why so cheap? Hydroelectric power and a lot of it. What could be more green than that? Well the environmentalists out here want to remove the dams and return the rivers to their "natural state" which they have no coherent plan to replace the power generated from them which will drive those costs skywards, and how much sense does it make to replace something that is in place now, working awesome and is already renewable?

The net result of this beyond the power void it creates? Lack of flood control, inability to guarantee irrigation water to all the ag producers, taking away the transportation lanes for many products that use more efficiently these riverways for transporting goods and dumping them where? Rail lines or OTR trucking? Hmm....

Makes zero sense, but to the greenies they want what they want to hell with anyone else or the economic suicide that it takes to get there.

I am NOT anti alternative energy, I really think it will get there, but it takes time, this is an emerging technology so let it emerge. In the mean time coherent and responsible energy needs to be readily available to all at a reasonable cost to consumers. We have the ability to be self sufficient, and with that independent on the world stage, that translates into an ability to handle events such as what is going on today differently. This is not a provocative way of thinking - it is a sane and sensible thing to do. Bankrupting the country and funding outlaw states that wreak havoc around the world does not.

[garysanfran]

Americans can be impatient and want change immediately. A drastic change in energy should be evolutionary, not revolutionary. Otherwise you end up with expensive technology obsolete in a very short time.

If nuclear is not a part of the discussion, it's not going to be a serious discussion.

[garysanfran]

I found this quite educational...I know it's an ad...

https://news.energysage.com/solar-panel-efficiency-cost-over-time/

[WinnisquamZ]

At these numbers, thinking of converting to propane from oil. Currently have propane for parlor stove and cooking. Has anyone recently undergone the conversion?


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[thinkxingu]

As msw points out--if you have solar, heat pumps, and an EV, jumps in oil prices have virtually no impact on your wallet. I'm pretty sure that last year my net energy bill for a 3,000 sq ft house in Mass plus an electric car was a negative number--I received more in green energy credits than I paid for heat, lights, and gasoline. I'm an extreme case, but for anyone with a house in a sunny spot, solar panels are like an ATM on the roof

You realize how much this stuff costs? What percent of America has the money to outlay for this?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[mswlogo]

Yes just don't pay attention to the fact that those solar panels are made of highly toxic materials and the manufacturing process isn't exactly environmentally friendly, but that's OK it's done out of sight in China so who cares. And this stuff is being thrown in landfills that are NIMBY.

Just like the EVs, don't pay any attention to the extremely harmful strip mining (overseas so out of sight out of mind) that is occurring to get the raw materials to make batteries that too are highly toxic to manufacture and recycle\dispose of.

When we as a nation are committing economic suicide to virtue signal how "green" we are and to do so turning a blind eye to the environmental impacts that occur elsewhere to do it.... it's comically hypocritical. This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.

All forms of energy cost. The idea is to diversify. Nothing it perfect.
But it sure beats burning fossil fuel.

The panels will get recycled. There isn’t much infrastructure yet in the US because there isn’t much need. EU started Solar earlier and has recycling programs now.

https://www.cedgreentech.com/article/can-solar-panels-be-recycled

You’re just trying to justify burning fossil fuel is better.

Your right that EV’s have a long ways to go to be carbon neutral too.

But I don’t mind helping fund energy diversity. EV’s will get better and better.
Each generation of Tesla batteries aims to use less heavy metals.

Your just trying to justify your gas burning ICE is sone how better. Well sure isn’t good for the lakes.

Your also right that China might be more sloppy in producing batteries and panels.

It is the direction things are going. Massive facilities are going Solar and EV for a reason. I doubt the aim it to pollute more. Amazon, Apple, Meta etc all aim to be carbon neutral. Carbon is the major problem right now. Yea, we will have deal with other side effects too.

Go ahead and encourage the world to keep buying oil from OPEC and Russia I guess is your plan.

I’ll take my chances with PV and EV. Much more manageable, long term.

[mswlogo]

At these numbers, thinking of converting to propane from oil. Currently have propane for parlor stove and cooking. Has anyone recently undergone the conversion?


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You do realize propane is much more expensive than oil. It might not be for a short while, but it will probably continue that track. It does burn a lot cleaner and less issues. But I’d much more expensive.

[mswlogo]

You realize how much this stuff costs? What percent of America has the money to outlay for this?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

You have a point.

Solar is pretty cheap though.

My ROI is 6 years. After that it’s PROFITABLE.
Yes, will make money.
Because I take some burden off the grid they pay me CASH to be self sustaining.

Solar is NOT free. You are prepaying it.
The rule of thumb is I’m paying about 0.08 KWh (as opposed to 0.26 KWh in MA).

You can lease and save some money long term.
But if you can afford it you do save money, quite a bit, long term.

Say your electric bill is $150 a month.
Multiple that out 20 years and it’s $36,000

Install Solar for $18K. Bill goes to $0.00

You save $18,000.00

Now that assume price doesn’t go up. The more it goes up the more you save.

Now you could invest that $36,000 too and keep paying for electricity.
I elected to go green-ER

EV’s are almost in reach of average consumer. Maybe 5 more years.
You don’t need to be rich to own one now. But you need to be comfortable.
If you can afford lake property I suspect you can afford both with no problem.

The number one reason I buy a Tesla is, it’s one of the safest vehicles on the planet to get me to and from NH. It’s the only way I can justify it because it’s not financially sound just yet. Even with Solar to power it.

[thinkxingu]

You have a point.

Solar is pretty cheap though.

My ROI is 6 years. After that it’s PROFITABLE.
Yes, will make money.
Because I take some burden off the grid they pay me CASH to be self sustaining.

Solar is NOT free. You are prepaying it.
The rule of thumb is I’m paying about 0.08 KWh (as opposed to 0.26 KWh in MA).

You can lease and save some money long term.
But if you can afford it you do save money, quite a bit, long term.

Say your electric bill is $150 a month.
Multiple that out 20 years and it’s $36,000

Install Solar for $18K. Bill goes to $0.00

You save $18,000.00

Now that assume price doesn’t go up. The more it goes up the more you save.

Now you could invest that $36,000 too and keep paying for electricity.
I elected to go green-ER

EV’s are almost in reach of average consumer. Maybe 5 more years.
You don’t need to be rich to own one now. But you need to be comfortable.
If you can afford lake property I suspect you can afford both with no problem.

The number one reason I buy a Tesla is, it’s one of the safest vehicles on the planet to get me to and from NH. It’s the only way I can justify it because it’s not financially sound just yet. Even with Solar to power it.You realize that everything before and after "install solar at $18k" is worthless, right?

Something like 60% of Americans would be wiped out by a thousand dollar expense.

The increase in fuel, food, clothing, etc. costs are going to force hundreds of thousands from middle class to lower class status.

What percent of Americans can afford $18k?! And, if they'd have to take a loan out in order to do so, or not pay off other loans in the process, your ROI is directly affected.

True story: I was at Market Basket last week and the guy next to be bought two rolls of toilet paper even though the 4-pack was on sale for 25% off because he only had enough in his budget for two rolls. Extrapolate that to all areas of life, and therein lies the glitch.

THAT'S most of America.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Descant]

Am I wrong? Currently, we pay to maintain the power grid, and the utility charges accordingly, billing for power used, delivery/grid and taxes and fees. At some point in time, the practice of buying solar back from individual residences will cease as the number of people paying full price drops below a certain level. Like Social Security, Medicare and other government programs, when there are more people taking benefits and too few paying the bill, the system will fail. Right now, the law requires the grid to buy your excess electricity like a government program. When that subsidy goes away, the ROI for solar will change dramatically, and may collapse. Ask your school board why all those flat roofs don't have solar panels. It's not economically feasible, and the voters don't want to pay huge upfront costs that have no conversion subsidy, right?

[John Mercier]

I think most of you are missing the point.
Large corporations do large projects... not an individual or a small group.
So other than rooftop solar, a backyard windmill, or some smaller system... it really is just a matter of historical precedent for large corporations.

Build a nuclear facility, go bankrupt. Attempt to build a pipeline in southern NH or reverse the flow in northern NH, face the backlash from both political parties. Try to build a transmission line, face the backlash from both political parties and lose millions.

So other than conservation... the only new sourcing will be those small projects.

Complaining may make some feel better, but it doesn't change the fact that we are using more than we can supply without relying on others that many, if not most, we don't like.

By the way... 4.20 at the pump.

[mswlogo]

Am I wrong? Currently, we pay to maintain the power grid, and the utility charges accordingly, billing for power used, delivery/grid and taxes and fees. At some point in time, the practice of buying solar back from individual residences will cease as the number of people paying full price drops below a certain level. Like Social Security, Medicare and other government programs, when there are more people taking benefits and too few paying the bill, the system will fail. Right now, the law requires the grid to buy your excess electricity like a government program. When that subsidy goes away, the ROI for solar will change dramatically, and may collapse. Ask your school board why all those flat roofs don't have solar panels. It's not economically feasible, and the voters don't want to pay huge upfront costs that have no conversion subsidy, right?

You do know what Net Metering is, right?
You don’t get it all back. NH takes 25%. MA takes 20%.
There are also connect fees etc.
But you can “pay” for it with kwh at least you can in MA
So you size your system to over produce enough to cover it.

So electric company can produce less energy when needed.
So both parties win.

Now if everyone did that, it would not work. But currently it does.
And we have a long ways to go.

Things will adjust accordingly.

In some states don’t offer NetMetering.
Then you invest in battery. There is no need to with NetMetering.

By the time the ROI gets bad the the panels will be much cheaper, more power and cheaper batteries.

26% tax credit ends this year BTW.
I plan to install another Solar system in NH this year to get the tax credit.

And I’ll probably get premium dollars for my house in MA when I show the buyer my electric bill and EV charger. So it won’t matter that I ever reached my ROI date.

[mswlogo]

You realize that everything before and after "install solar at $18k" is worthless, right?

Something like 60% of Americans would be wiped out by a thousand dollar expense.

The increase in fuel, food, clothing, etc. costs are going to force hundreds of thousands from middle class to lower class status.

What percent of Americans can afford $18k?! And, if they'd have to take a loan out in order to do so, or not pay off other loans in the process, your ROI is directly affected.

True story: I was at Market Basket last week and the guy next to be bought two rolls of toilet paper even though the 4-pack was on sale for 25% off because he only had enough in his budget for two rolls. Extrapolate that to all areas of life, and therein lies the glitch.

THAT'S most of America.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Like I said. If you can’t afford it. You lease. That’s what all the Solar calls are and guy in the Home Depot store is selling. Zero out of pocket. You will pay less for electricity and over time it will save you more. My friend did that and they put in a whole new service for free. If system doesn’t produce enough juice. Say in winter the roof is covered. They PAY him a check to give the electric company to pay his bill !!

Anyone that is considering Solar probably owns a home to put the Solar on.
I suspect most home owners could afford it.

It’s one of the best purchases I’ve ever made.

I have to laugh when anyone tries to argue against it. Just ridiculous. Like it’s a crime or something.

If you get a full Tesla setup (Solar and EV) it will time the charging of your car to when you are over producing on Solar. (Saves that 25% on NetMetering). Since the EV is fairly flexible of when it gets filled.

[FlyingScot]

This has nothing to do with oil.... you may find this story rather interesting.

My electric bill right now is running me about $25.00 per month here in Idaho. Why so cheap? Hydroelectric power and a lot of it. What could be more green than that? Well the environmentalists out here want to remove the dams and return the rivers to their "natural state" which they have no coherent plan to replace the power generated from them which will drive those costs skywards, and how much sense does it make to replace something that is in place now, working awesome and is already renewable?

The net result of this beyond the power void it creates? Lack of flood control, inability to guarantee irrigation water to all the ag producers, taking away the transportation lanes for many products that use more efficiently these riverways for transporting goods and dumping them where? Rail lines or OTR trucking? Hmm....

Makes zero sense, but to the greenies they want what they want to hell with anyone else or the economic suicide that it takes to get there.

I am NOT anti alternative energy, I really think it will get there, but it takes time, this is an emerging technology so let it emerge. In the mean time coherent and responsible energy needs to be readily available to all at a reasonable cost to consumers. We have the ability to be self sufficient, and with that independent on the world stage, that translates into an ability to handle events such as what is going on today differently. This is not a provocative way of thinking - it is a sane and sensible thing to do. Bankrupting the country and funding outlaw states that wreak havoc around the world does not.

I think we agree!:)

I agree 100% that climate change has made disabling hydropower a really bad thing to do, and that we should be increasing hydropower. And that we need a sane coherent system. And that funding bastards like Putin and MBS in Saudi Arabia is terrible in several different ways.

Our only difference may be that I'm more eager to get off oil--in part due to climate change, in part due to geopolitical issues. But if your using hydro today, I salute you

[FlyingScot]

You realize how much this stuff costs? What percent of America has the money to outlay for this?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I agree that the outlay is tough for many people:

On solar--pretty much any homeowner with a decent roof and credit rating can lease panels with no money down, and still get the majority of the savings from the systems.

On heat pumps--I would only expect a person to do this if they were doing a renovation, so they have cash.

On EVs--they are less expensive than they appear and getting cheaper all the time. Volkswagen, just for example, is now shipping their ID.4, price is about $35K after EV rebate. More coming soon from VW, Ford, Subaru, Nissan, in addition to higher cars.

[mswlogo]

I think we agree!:)

I agree 100% that climate change has made disabling hydropower a really bad thing to do, and that we should be increasing hydropower. And that we need a sane coherent system. And that funding bastards like Putin and MBS in Saudi Arabia is terrible in several different ways.

Our only difference may be that I'm more eager to get off oil--in part due to climate change, in part due to geopolitical issues. But if your using hydro today, I salute you

I totally agree too.

Almost anything we do will cause some harm.

It really bothered me how so many were against more windmills.
Stupid stupid arguments from really smart people.

Yes, they will kill some birds. Yes, you will see them. Yes there will be some impact installing them. But they are a net win vs the alternatives.

We may never get rid of oil. But that’s ok.
But we can try to rebalance sources so we use a little of each.
Too much of anyone causes the most harm.

Wasn’t it hydro power that Canada wanted to send down our way that 95% NH said no too. I don’t even care if it passed through NH. If MA burns less oil, that’s good for NH too.

Like someone mentioned. Why should all the harm happen in China and NH get off with little or no impact? We all have to share some burden for energy.

Looking at Windmills and allowing a power line through was a pretty small penalty compared to sacrifices other states make. Coal states, fracking states, oil states, mining states.

Would I prefer not have solar panels on my pretty new house. Sure. But it’s worth it and I’ll make it work with the least visual impact. And for the record Solar might not work out in NH for me. I’m not gonna cut a bunch of trees for it. Maybe I’ll put up a wind mill. That would go over big ;)

[FlyingScot]

Am I wrong? Currently, we pay to maintain the power grid, and the utility charges accordingly, billing for power used, delivery/grid and taxes and fees. At some point in time, the practice of buying solar back from individual residences will cease as the number of people paying full price drops below a certain level. Like Social Security, Medicare and other government programs, when there are more people taking benefits and too few paying the bill, the system will fail. Right now, the law requires the grid to buy your excess electricity like a government program. When that subsidy goes away, the ROI for solar will change dramatically, and may collapse. Ask your school board why all those flat roofs don't have solar panels. It's not economically feasible, and the voters don't want to pay huge upfront costs that have no conversion subsidy, right?

A couple of great points!

I agree the subsidies will taper off as more people get solar, so get in soon! I disagree the system will fail--the government will subsidize as easy landing--just as it is doing with the programs you cite.

School Boards and other nonprofits are not eligible for the big money part of the subsidies. A homeowner or business gets 26% of their solar investment back immediately in the form of a tax credit. (Businesses also get accelerated depreciation on top of that--87% in Year 1). Schools, local governments, and nonprofits such as YMCAs and churches do not pay taxes, so they do not get the credit. In effect, if a car dealer and a church both buy solar, the church is paying 50% more than the car dealer. Obviously this is messed up and makes it impossible for the School Boards. (The Build Back Better bill had a provision to fix this.)

[mswlogo]

A couple of great points!

I agree the subsidies will taper off as more people get solar, so get in soon! I disagree the system will fail--the government will subsidize as easy landing--just as it is doing with the programs you cite.

School Boards and other nonprofits are not eligible for the big money part of the subsidies. A homeowner or business gets 26% of their solar investment back immediately in the form of a tax credit. (Businesses also get accelerated depreciation on top of that--87% in Year 1). Schools, local governments, and nonprofits such as YMCAs and churches do not pay taxes, so they do not get the credit. In effect, if a car dealer and a church both buy solar, the church is paying 50% more than the car dealer. Obviously this is messed up and makes it impossible for the School Boards. (The Build Back Better bill had a provision to fix this.)

You make good points.

But I bet most installers would give churches and non profits a 26% better price.
I guarantee they mark up a good chunk because they know your getting 26% off. I bet prices drop proportionally when credits expire.
I don’t care that much though. It’s the small companies trying to get into new tech that needs it just as much as the consumer does.

I guarantee Tesla got most of the EV Tax credits. Once they expired prices dropped.

[MAXUM]

I think we agree!:)

I agree 100% that climate change has made disabling hydropower a really bad thing to do, and that we should be increasing hydropower. And that we need a sane coherent system. And that funding bastards like Putin and MBS in Saudi Arabia is terrible in several different ways.

Our only difference may be that I'm more eager to get off oil--in part due to climate change, in part due to geopolitical issues. But if your using hydro today, I salute you

Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.

[NH.Solar]

First a few points of clarification;
1. When the NH PUC changed the rules on net metering four years ago the credits issued for excess solar production exported back into the grid went from dollar for dollar to ~75 cents on the dollar on the credit side. The individual utilities, not the State, were allowed to retain the 25% net metering discount. At the same time the PUC decreed that the utilities in turn would have to change their crediting from kWh to a monetary basis. Overall this seems to me a very equitable plan, the utilites get to keep 25% on the power exported into their grid, and the consumer can now use the credits to offset the fixed net metering costs that formerly would have always produced a billing. This was especially beneficial to the NHEC customers because the credits can now be used against their stiff $31 meter (membership) fee. I have a modest 8.2 kW roof mounted solar array, but from April until usually January don't see a billing at all ...very satisfying.

2. Leasing solar is only good for the solar installer! Generally the programs only reward you with a fixed low monthly utility rate in exchange for mounting an array on your property. If the general utility rates should ever go down you may find yourself locked into a contract rate that is higher than the public utility rate and upside down. This is fairly unlikely, but rates do occasionally decline. The Co-op will sometimes do this when they hike their fixed memebership fee and present it as a marketing advantage when in fact for most clients the higher meter fee offsets any temporary decline in the kWh rate. By the way don't take this as a criticism of the Co-op, they are only doing what's neccesary to accomodate their ever increasing costs while presenting it to their clients as favorably as possible.
Second, if you have a leased solar array on your roof that asset is not yours, and it is in fact a huge deteriment to your property. If you ever want to sell, the contract has to be assumed by the new buyer, or you need to pay the cost to have the array removed and the roof made weatherproof again.
3. The solar installer gets to keep the 26% ITC ....nuff said.

As far as affordability for the general public goes, it shouldn't be a problem at all as long as you have maintained your credit scores. We generally refer our clients to Mascoma Bank for financing their renewable energy projects. Their program is excellent, they are local, and the service top notch. The end result for the potential solar buyer is that their monthly outlay to finance their solar array is the same or maybe even less that their current monthly utility bill ...but at the end of their financing contract they own the solar array producing their power and from that point forward that portion of their electricity is coming to them for free. In addition, should they wish to sell their home in the near future the asset value of the array is part of the value of the home they are selling. Sure there will still be some buyers that shy away from a solar array, but not that many.

The cost of EV's... I bought a pristine loaded Chevy Volt coming in off of a lease two years ago and it has been a wonderful experience! The car had 23K miles on it when I took possession and Colonial Chevy in Mass delivered it to my New Hampton home for just $23k, with an extended warranty covering it to 50k miles! I have nearly that on it already and will be trading it soon for another newer lease end low mileage Volt. The car is a delight to drive, has all of the goodies I want, and easily saves me $250 a month in fuel alone over the cost of driving my Duramax. Whenever possible I try to charge it midday so that my excess solar goes into the Volt at 100% of value, rather than at night when that same solar energy would have been subjected to the 25% net metering discount. I can leave my New Hampton home and rive up to Cannon and back and it only costs me a 1/4 gallon of gas (the Volt has a backup onboard generator), and if I wantedto go to the Cape, I'll be somewhere across the Mass border before the generator even starts purring in the background. Best part is, even when I'm running on the generator the car still is getting 40+ mpg and has the scoot of an EV.
I do have money down on both the new Ford Lightning and a Chevy Silverado EV and will take whichever I can first get my hands on. I'd prefer the Ford because it is bedirectional and can actually feed power back into my home when the grid is down, but would prefer the Chevy because they say it will be offered as a 2500 and then I could lose my trusty but expensive to run Duramax.

Finally, dams and windmills. I am part owner of a dam on a 53 acre pond and if there were a power line close enough to hook 3 phase into it would be a perfect sistuation ...but there isn't. This means that myself and my neighbor are fully responsible for the maintenance and liabilty of this dam. It is worth it because ofthe pristine and very private nature of our shared pond, but I wouldn't recommend it for most. We have to get it inspected by the DES every four years and should they ever find a deficiency we are on the hook for it.
I can also see the Rumney windmills from my hilltop home site and while I like what I see right now, I really don't want to see any more.

It is my opinion that the best solution in everyway for our need for energy, both locally and on the grand scale, is efficiency improvements and localized solar with energy storage. The batteries are the key and the progress since Elon Musk came alone and said to the world, "yes we can", has been astonishing. I do takethe time to contact out public reps every now and again and plead the case for moving the State and Federal incentives off solar generation and into energy storage, but so far it has been a case of shouting into the wind. Maybe someday...

[mswlogo]

Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.

Not saying everyone should have an EV.

But I’d care to understand your reliability concern.

My 2.5 year old Model X has yet to have any service. And for many service tasks they come to me !!! It never sees gas stations (except to fill the gas can for the lawn mower) and I rarely even need to stop for a charge. And I commute between MA and NH 120 miles away. It’s also an absolute beast in the snow. And believe me, I need a good snow machine. Better than the top end Jeep’s I’ve had. Lot’s people can’t afford those either but I don’t see negativity towards them. Loaded Pickups are now pushing $60-$70k.

Any one can have Solar (that has a place to put it). Not anyone can afford full purchase with no loan. Lots of people can’t afford to pay cash for their cars but they still buy new cars. There are plans for folks without excess cash if you bother to look.

There are also co-ops you can join. You don’t have to necessarily push power to the grid from your roof. But I don’t know that much about them.

Now the days of No out of pocket for Solar may be dwindling or less attractive. I don’t know todays details. But a few years back it was a bargain.

[Dblblkdiam]

Just my 2 cents on the subject for anyone interested in solar & heat pumps

My 3,600 sq ft home has leased solar panels. I am locked into a price per kWh generated which as of right now is better than mkt. Might not always be the case, but kept the install cost ~18K in my pocket.
I generate more power than I consume so i generate credits on my electric account through net metering.

My current heat is oil
I recently installed entire home heat pumps and integrated controls which creates a hybrid system. Heat pumps work until around 20 degrees, then the oil kicks in to support in extreme temperatures. Oil consumption has materially gone down.
My solar credits cover the costs to operate the heat pumps & A/C.
When pricing out the replacement of my old central A/C, to add the heat pump functionality was around $7K. I received $7K+ rebate from MassSave to convert so basically the heat pump "option" was free.
MassSave also let me finance the difference in cost for 7 years at zero percent interest. Just another perk of going green or more efficient.

[garysanfran]

So long as China is the largest supplier of lithium, nations that depend on electric cars will become more beholden to China.

I believe China is also the largest producer of solar panels.

Plus our medical supplies and almost every trinket you buy in the "kitchen wares" section of any market.

Becoming more dependent on China is not my idea of independence.

[mswlogo]

So long as China is the largest supplier of lithium, nations that depend on electric cars will become more beholden to China.

I believe China is also the largest producer of solar panels.

Plus our medical supplies and almost every trinket you buy in the "kitchen wares" section of any market.

Becoming more dependent on China is not my idea of independence.

Really? According to this it’s Australia and Chile that produces most Lithium.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/268789/countries-with-the-largest-production-output-of-lithium/

[NH.Solar]

Ir used to be the most of the solar modules installed in the USA were from China, but no more. The Trump administration instituted a stiff tariff on all solar modules from China to stop market flooding and as a consequence most panels installed now are either domestically made or from Indonesia. Naturally I disagreed with Trump's decision when it was first announced, but in the long run it proved to be quite a bonus. The only Chinese modules currently exempt from some reason from the tariff are bifacials ..which we use a lot of ;-) LG used to be our go-to, but they have recently announced that they are abandoning the modules industry to focus on their home batteries.
Lithium does look like it could become more and more valuable as time goes by, and for this reason I have recently bought stock in one US LI recycling company and am waiting for the IPO on the other. Returns are only ok on the one I'm invested in but my fingers are crossed. The other already has a huge stock pile of old EV batteries, has been partially funded by both Ford, Volvo, and Tesla, and is staffed by a lot of former Tesla employees ...hmmm

[John Mercier]

Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.New wells already on the way. The price simply needed to be high enough for the drillers to feel that the long term investment in a well would not be lost by a simple blip in the price. It makes no sense to drill a well that has a $50/$60$80 per barrel expense in a market that is not willing to pay more than that expense.

But it takes time to hire and train personnel, and not exactly a productive supply chain for equipment and parts.

[MAXUM]

Not saying everyone should have an EV.

But I’d care to understand your reliability concern.

My 2.5 year old Model X has yet to have any service. And for many service tasks they come to me !!! It never sees gas stations (except to fill the gas can for the lawn mower) and I rarely even need to stop for a charge. And I commute between MA and NH 120 miles away. It’s also an absolute beast in the snow. And believe me, I need a good snow machine. Better than the top end Jeep’s I’ve had. Lot’s people can’t afford those either but I don’t see negativity towards them. Loaded Pickups are now pushing $60-$70k.

Any one can have Solar (that has a place to put it). Not anyone can afford full purchase with no loan. Lots of people can’t afford to pay cash for their cars but they still buy new cars. There are plans for folks without excess cash if you bother to look.

There are also co-ops you can join. You don’t have to necessarily push power to the grid from your roof. But I don’t know that much about them.

Now the days of No out of pocket for Solar may be dwindling or less attractive. I don’t know todays details. But a few years back it was a bargain.


Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.

[granitebox]

Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.

Its always an issue to me when someone references "I have a friend" or "I know a guy" or "I read that...."

I have a model 3, about 20,000 miles on it with no issues. Perhaps you really do know people who have nothing but problems but that's not representative of the car or the EV industry.

Consumer Reports - an unbiased review IMO rates the 2022 Tesla Model 3 as a recommended car - no small feat.

[mswlogo]

Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.

Price does not imply quality. I had a Model 3 as well. Only problem it had was a stress crack in the rear window. That’s it. Friend bought a Model 3 before me and just traded it for a Model Y. He had 50K miles and never saw service either. They gave him almost full price back in trade. I’m also getting almost full price back on my X in trade (cost almost nothing to own or run for 2.5 years). It was only due to luck due to shortages, increase in prices etc. Only reason I’m trading is because I can get back what I paid. Same for my friend and true fir many ICE cars as well.

I agree, Model 3 has had some issues (all Teslas have some issues). Yet Tesla is still #1 in customer satisfaction. I bet most of your friends still enjoy the car even after the frustration of the failures. A common failure is the 12V battery doesn’t last long and can leave you stranded and doesn’t give much warning. And if it dies it’s not easy to deal with. If you get the warnings, any warnings IMMEDIATELY get it to service.

https://insideevs.com/news/486130/tesla-consumer-reports-owner-satisfaction-win-2020/amp/

I don’t care for leases either. And don’t like loans on cars as well. But most people I know that do leases are smart with their money. I can’t stand the thought of not actually owning my car. I’ve never even rented a living space either.

Even though a lot of folks argue that you’re better off investing the money and taking a loan vs paying for it in cash I don’t buy it that argument. Paying by cash forces you to stay within your means. But it depends on where you are in your life. When young it makes sense. When your older it doesn’t.

[fatlazyless]

March 10, 2022 and the NH price for regular gas is now $4.19/gal so's that maybe means that boat gas, this summer, will be above the not-so-magical price of $5.00/gallon ....... weeeeeoooooo .....:eek:..... and holy-moly!!!

After gassing up the car, yesterday, in Ashland, I took a peek at the other gas pump to see what a big gray 4-door Toyota Tundra pick-up just purchased for gas and they had only bought twenty dollars of gas?????

Was expecting to see some price like $95 or something! ..... :laugh:

[Winnisquamer]

Price does not imply quality. I had a Model 3 as well. Only problem it had was a stress crack in the rear window. That’s it. Friend bought a Model 3 before me and just traded it for a Model Y. He had 50K miles and never saw service either. They gave him almost full price back in trade. I’m also getting almost full price back on my X in trade (cost almost nothing to own or run for 2.5 years). It was only due to luck due to shortages, increase in prices etc. Only reason I’m trading is because I can get back what I paid. Same for my friend and true fir many ICE cars as well.

I agree, Model 3 has had some issues (all Teslas have some issues). Yet Tesla is still #1 in customer satisfaction. I bet most of your friends still enjoy the car even after the frustration of the failures. A common failure is the 12V battery doesn’t last long and can leave you stranded and doesn’t give much warning. And if it dies it’s not easy to deal with. If you get the warnings, any warnings IMMEDIATELY get it to service.

https://insideevs.com/news/486130/tesla-consumer-reports-owner-satisfaction-win-2020/amp/

I don’t care for leases either. And don’t like loans on cars as well. But most people I know that do leases are smart with their money. I can’t stand the thought of not actually owning my car. I’ve never even rented a living space either.

Even though a lot of folks argue that you’re better off investing the money and taking a loan vs paying for it in cash I don’t buy it that argument. Paying by cash forces you to stay within your means. But it depends on where you are in your life. When young it makes sense. When your older it doesn’t.


I’ve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got lucky… my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, I’d never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally won’t spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 I’ll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how it’s dumb to finance free money?

[Garcia]

I’ve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got lucky… my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, I’d never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally won’t spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 I’ll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how it’s dumb to finance free money?

I leased once and it was a mistake. I realize it makes sense for some but I don't see myself ever doing it again. I usually buy late model used cars and go to the dealer with financing in place. After settling on a price, if the dealer can offer better financing I'll take it.

Right now, I am thinking of buying new. What I can get for my trade is pretty high and from the bit of looking I have done, I can get a better deal on a new car than I can get on a used one.

As to gas prices, both at home and at the lake i don't see price changing usage much. Where i live public transportation and carpooling isn't an option. Getting to and from camp requires a boat ride. I don't go on vacations other than to camp (and recognize how fortunate I am to be able to have the place) so will fish, do water sports, or simply enjoy the water regardless of gas prices. I am thankful I will be able to do so.

My guess is that a big increase in gas prices will keep some people who trailer and sped the day on the boat away, but as was mentioned in an earlier post, those who can afford a boat are probably less impacted by rising gas prices than others. Not that it might not be painful, but boat owners are probably not choosing between gas and food.

[mswlogo]

I’ve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got lucky… my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, I’d never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally won’t spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 I’ll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how it’s dumb to finance free money?

Right. I’ve done 0% loans before for free money too. I never thought I’d do another mortgage. I have two homes paid off since 2008. But I decided to refinance our MA home and sell it once the NH house is built. I got 2% fixed 15 year. Almost free money.

Yeah, I agree on the Teslas. I liked nice safe quiet cars before the Teslas. I was big on upgrades with new crash avoidance features. But driving was more of a chore than a pleasure. Once I got the Tesla I make excuses to drive it (even 3 years later). It’s so completely different. It’s like going from a flip phone that only makes calls to a smart phone that makes calls and many other things. And why I more than doubled my budget for “cars” with no buyers remorse.

[John Mercier]

I leased once and it was a mistake. I realize it makes sense for some but I don't see myself ever doing it again. I usually buy late model used cars and go to the dealer with financing in place. After settling on a price, if the dealer can offer better financing I'll take it.

Right now, I am thinking of buying new. What I can get for my trade is pretty high and from the bit of looking I have done, I can get a better deal on a new car than I can get on a used one.

As to gas prices, both at home and at the lake i don't see price changing usage much. Where i live public transportation and carpooling isn't an option. Getting to and from camp requires a boat ride. I don't go on vacations other than to camp (and recognize how fortunate I am to be able to have the place) so will fish, do water sports, or simply enjoy the water regardless of gas prices. I am thankful I will be able to do so.

My guess is that a big increase in gas prices will keep some people who trailer and sped the day on the boat away, but as was mentioned in an earlier post, those who can afford a boat are probably less impacted by rising gas prices than others. Not that it might not be painful, but boat owners are probably not choosing between gas and food.
Not between gas and food... more often between gas and other expenditures/savings. We expect that they will spend more time in the coves and at the sandbars at anchor, and will avoid spending money in other ways.

The increase in gasoline prices means I have less earned income to invest.

[VitaBene]

Right. I’ve done 0% loans before for free money too. I never thought I’d do another mortgage. I have two homes paid off since 2008. But I decided to refinance our MA home and sell it once the NH house is built. I got 2% fixed 15 year. Almost free money.

Yeah, I agree on the Teslas. I liked nice safe quiet cars before the Teslas. I was big on upgrades with new crash avoidance features. But driving was more of a chore than a pleasure. Once I got the Tesla I make excuses to drive it (even 3 years later). It’s so completely different. It’s like going from a flip phone that only makes calls to a smart phone that makes calls and many other things. And why I more than doubled my budget for “cars” with no buyers remorse.

I cant make one work here yet. We just sold an 2018 Tesla X 75D (business partner) for more than we paid 2 years later. Great car and a blast to drive but it batteries were not the new extra range and getting older. 20K to upgrade he said.

[Juiced06GTO]

All this banter over EV's and solar.....Can you guys all just keep an eye out for when the lightly used tirtoons w/250-300hp outboards start hitting the market and give me a heads up? I was thinking about dumping the funship and going toon anyhow, so maybe the gas prices will force a market flood....:D

[RUGMAN]

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

[LakeDad]

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

This information is widely available. It varies and the numbers are different for everyone, but sometimes, it can make sense.

It will only make more sense as technology advances and fuel costs rise.

However, most people aren’t interested in doing the math (short and long term), they just find it easier to either be for or against EV with no mathematical reason.

Some are pretentious and others are stubborn.

[FlyingScot]

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

$2,000 or maybe less, depending on your existing electric situation (you need a 220 line). Of course, this money is quickly returned in the form of lower cost/mile, and the charger lasts forever. The last time I did the math, electricity for an EV was about 30% of the price of gas, on an apples to apples basis. Numbers are probably more favorable for an EV today

[John Mercier]

Wouldn't that be based on how many miles you drive a year and the fuel mileage your comparing too?

[FlyingScot]

Wouldn't that be based on how many miles you drive a year and the fuel mileage your comparing too?

Yes--definitely. A person should compare a Tesla S to a high powered full size sedan, or the upcoming Ford Lightning to the F-150. Also depends on your personal cost of electricity and gasoline. But in most any case, I think you're going to get the cost of the charger back long before you sell the car

[John Mercier]

Last auto I drove 12 years... just under 78,000 miles. Combined efficiency was around 35 mpg on an annualized basis; purchased for $10,800.

Current auto... six and a half years old... just under 45,000 miles, combined efficiency is around 40 (got as low as 37 mpg this winter with defrosting, but will hit 44 mpg during the summer)... purchased for $11,800.

I don't think the math quite works for me.

[mswlogo]

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

It’s a pretty wide range depending on what you want and what you have.

One house I had an existing 30A 240V heater in the garage, that I rarely used.
So I added an A/B switch and a 2nd outlet. Probably $100.00 and did it myself.

Other house I installed a Tesla Wall Connector. By luck I was able to put it right after the main house disconnect and added a sub panel. Probably $700 and did it myself. Professional might have been $1500.00-ish

There is a pretty wide range on charge rates. Faster rates are more convenient but not always required. If you drive 300 miles a day you might want the max 60A (to charge at say 30 mph) and you might not have the capacity, so it could cost $1000’s to upgrade your service. Or you drive 20 miles a day, you can use a 120V outlet and charge at a rate of 3 miles per hour.

Remember you typically charge while you sleep. As long as it’s ready by morning is all you need. Depends on how much you drive.

Rates in MA are much higher and you DO NOT save a ton. I save because I have Solar. Rates are better in NH. So you would probably cut fuel by 50%. It’s a lot of money to save that much on fuel. More you drive the more you save.

Sone parts of the country only pay like 0.08 Kw/h. NH is 0.17 KWh/h. MA is 0.26 kW/h.

With price if gas going up savings could potentially go much higher. But who knows where everything will settle long term.

Gas savings is only one reason to go EV. How they drive, the tech, the safety are other reasons.

[mswlogo]

Last auto I drove 12 years... just under 78,000 miles. Combined efficiency was around 35 mpg on an annualized basis; purchased for $10,800.

Current auto... six and a half years old... just under 45,000 miles, combined efficiency is around 40 (got as low as 37 mpg this winter with defrosting, but will hit 44 mpg during the summer)... purchased for $11,800.

I don't think the math quite works for me.

And if you were, god forbid, T-boned by someone at 40mph

Which would you rather be in with your family.
Tesla Model X or Your 12 year old $11k car?

We all make our choices.

I don’t buy Tesla’s to just save gas, but that’s a nice perk.

One time the car swerved suddenly way away from the shoulder. Man in dark clothes walking in the road dark drizzle night no road lights. On coming car had just turned off my auto high beams. I never saw him until it would have been to late. The car saw him before I did and drove around him. My guess is my mirror would have hit him.

[John Mercier]

Both the old and new had good side impact ratings.
You have to remember... after everything/most things go electric... the only way to really gain ground will be for the Tesla to lose some weight.

[LakeDad]

Both the old and new had good side impact ratings.
You have to remember... after everything/most things go electric... the only way to really gain ground will be for the Tesla to lose some weight.


Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…

[Juiced06GTO]

For anyone thinking solar, this is the quote I received to add a 12kw DC, 9.8KW AC system to my new barn. A 10kw AC system is the largest residential system they allow in Massachusetts. This includes net metering, enrolling in the new SRec program (not nearly as lucrative as the old program), and the federal tax credit which is 26% right now. The system would produce 101% of my current usage, less once I get the barn/workshop online.

This is for me to purchase it outright, no financing. Obviously financing it with interest is going to change your payback terms, as will great electric usage. The quickest payback is clearly purchasing outright, but the majority of people don't have a cool 44K to outlay to make that purchase. This company is local and has been in business for something like 15 years now, not one of the fly by night, disappear in a year companies, and is th eonly way I'd consider putting these on my house. I deal with plenty of solar companies in my line of work and have been burned by even the national guys, Solar City, Sunrun, and have no interest in supporting them.

[granitebox]

I'm getting a 12kW system installed at a cost of about $2.75/watt. I was very happy with that cost compared to other costs in the area.

The one huge thing with solar is you need to educate yourself. Solar installers possess the knowledge so they will suggest a system (or panels, or a specific invertor) that may or may not be what you want. Panel costs vary widely as does quality and efficiency at the end of the panels life (warranty) about 25 years. Panels do degrade in efficiency to the 80%s at the end of their life. Payback numbers I've seen are generally between 8-12 years depending on a variety of assumptions (these assumptions are almost always skewed in the installers behalf so again,) buyer beware.

On average, according to Solar Reviews - the average cost to install a system in New Hampshire is about $2.83/w.

https://www.solarreviews.com/solar-panel-cost

Get a couple opinions and quotes if you can.

[mswlogo]

Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…

I paid $96K for the Model X in fall of 2019.
With 27k miles on it now, they are giving $94K (plus tax) in trade !!!
I guess you’d call that “less so”.

Don’t kid yourself, Ford is good at stripping it down to the bone to get a low base model price to reel you in. You think the interior of the $40K base will be better than a Tesla? Does that even include a radio? Don’t forget dealer mark up BS.

A nicely packaged Lighting with a decent battery will be $70K+, fully loaded is $90K+ The Cybertruck will be more for the dollar. Guaranteed. Don’t forget with Ford, the middle man (dealer) gets $10K of that. And another $10K in advertising. Ever seen a Tesla ad?

I think interiors of Tesla’s are something like a Honda Accord or something. With all the glass (which can make cabin louder) and lack of knobs and buttons it can sometimes feel cheaper. It really isn’t. It’s not a Porsche inside but it’s not cheaply made. QA issues can also make it feel cheap when a plastic trim piece pops out. But they are built like a tank. The S/X is entirely aluminum. Crash tests show they are not cheaply built.

I think people are saving real Money on a Model 3 if they keep them long enough.

Ford recognized the dealership model is dumb and copying Tesla on that too.

Folks are not buying it for a statement. People that don’t know what it’s like to own one think that. They are just an absolute blast to own. Even with the hiccups, QA issues, ordering issues, high price tags people can’t get enough of them.

[FlyingScot]

Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…

Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great

[mswlogo]

For anyone thinking solar, this is the quote I received to add a 12kw DC, 9.8KW AC system to my new barn. A 10kw AC system is the largest residential system they allow in Massachusetts. This includes net metering, enrolling in the new SRec program (not nearly as lucrative as the old program), and the federal tax credit which is 26% right now. The system would produce 101% of my current usage, less once I get the barn/workshop online.

This is for me to purchase it outright, no financing. Obviously financing it with interest is going to change your payback terms, as will great electric usage. The quickest payback is clearly purchasing outright, but the majority of people don't have a cool 44K to outlay to make that purchase. This company is local and has been in business for something like 15 years now, not one of the fly by night, disappear in a year companies, and is th eonly way I'd consider putting these on my house. I deal with plenty of solar companies in my line of work and have been burned by even the national guys, Solar City, Sunrun, and have no interest in supporting them.

Thanks for sharing your quote.
It’s frightening how much to spend on electricity over 20-25 years.

It’s a similar type quote I got from MassRenewables. Keep in mind. You ideally want to over size by 10-20% to cover NetMetering losses (20% loss on round trip to grid and back). If you are 101% you’ll end up paying 10-20%.

My ROI was quicker (6 years or so) with the better SRECs. I get back like $2-3K a year (at the start). But only for 10 years.

How did you get 12kw? Because it’s commercial?

Is there a residential limit in NH too?
I’d like to get 12kw in NH.

[granitebox]

12 KW install was not in NH, we are out west and the limit here is closer to 25kW.

[John Mercier]

Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great

Unfortunately, I hate driving... so ''fun'' would never enter my equation. I am still upset that they removed the crank down window option on new cars.

[mswlogo]

Unfortunately, I hate driving... so ''fun'' would never enter my equation. I am still upset that they removed the crank down window option on new cars.

I’m not surprised you think driving isn’t fun in a $10K car that’s 12 years old with the closest thing to crank down windows you can find.

I wouldn’t either.

[John Mercier]

I didn't find driving fun in a brand new convertible sports car either.
I find driving to be tedious. Something I must do rather than desire to.

[mswlogo]

I didn't find driving fun in a brand new convertible sports car either.
I find driving to be tedious. Something I must do rather than desire to.

If you hate driving so much why discuss the merits of one vs the other.

Personally you couldn’t pay me to own a convertible in New England. About all they are good for is a July 4th parade. Or around the corner for fish and chips. Will you take it Sun Fried, Wind blown, Ears Blown or Freezing? I feel like I’m relaxing in the living room with the stereo going and the car driving itself.

[LakeDad]

I paid $96K for the Model X in fall of 2019.
With 27k miles on it now, they are giving $94K (plus tax) in trade !!!
I guess you’d call that “less so”.

Don’t kid yourself, Ford is good at stripping it down to the bone to get a low base model price to reel you in. You think the interior of the $40K base will be better than a Tesla? Does that even include a radio? Don’t forget dealer mark up BS.

A nicely packaged Lighting with a decent battery will be $70K+, fully loaded is $90K+ The Cybertruck will be more for the dollar. Guaranteed. Don’t forget with Ford, the middle man (dealer) gets $10K of that. And another $10K in advertising. Ever seen a Tesla ad?

I think interiors of Tesla’s are something like a Honda Accord or something. With all the glass (which can make cabin louder) and lack of knobs and buttons it can sometimes feel cheaper. It really isn’t. It’s not a Porsche inside but it’s not cheaply made. QA issues can also make it feel cheap when a plastic trim piece pops out. But they are built like a tank. The S/X is entirely aluminum. Crash tests show they are not cheaply built.

I think people are saving real Money on a Model 3 if they keep them long enough.

Ford recognized the dealership model is dumb and copying Tesla on that too.

Folks are not buying it for a statement. People that don’t know what it’s like to own one think that. They are just an absolute blast to own. Even with the hiccups, QA issues, ordering issues, high price tags people can’t get enough of them.


Conjecture and opinions. I stand by my own.
Buy what works for you.

[LakeDad]

Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great


If you took these as “cheap shots”, that’s your own perception. I said it is exactly why SOME people buy them. I don’t recall specifically saying or implying that was why YOU bought one.

[LakeDad]

If you hate driving so much why discuss the merits of one vs the other.

Personally you couldn’t pay me to own a convertible in New England. About all they are good for is a July 4th parade. Or around the corner for fish and chips. Will you take it Sun Fried, Wind blown, Ears Blown or Freezing? I feel like I’m relaxing in the living room with the stereo going and the car driving itself.


This is a meaningless challenge , an attack challenge, and I’m going to side with John here.

He was talking about financial merits and value.
You can discuss these without “enjoying” driving.

I’m a car guy and love driving. He doesn’t.
Ok, we don’t all have to like the same thing..

[John Mercier]

If you hate driving so much why discuss the merits of one vs the other.

Personally you couldn’t pay me to own a convertible in New England. About all they are good for is a July 4th parade. Or around the corner for fish and chips. Will you take it Sun Fried, Wind blown, Ears Blown or Freezing? I feel like I’m relaxing in the living room with the stereo going and the car driving itself.
Monetary efficiency.

[John Mercier]

This is a meaningless challenge , an attack challenge, and I’m going to side with John here.

He was talking about financial merits and value.
You can discuss these without “enjoying” driving.

I’m a car guy and love driving. He doesn’t.
Ok, we don’t all have to like the same thing..

I think more meaningless as Elon is looking toward the self-driving vehicle.
Amory wasn't thinking of self-driving when he worked on the hypercar... just much more efficient.

Gary Reysa, a retired Boeing engineer, was doing more of the work in solar.
He was working on using hydrogen as a storage medium. So it was a basic presumption that hydrogen would be used to power the hypercar.

[mswlogo]

If you took these as “cheap shots”, that’s your own perception. I said it is exactly why SOME people buy them. I don’t recall specifically saying or implying that was why YOU bought one.

Actually, you said MOST people.

[mswlogo]

This is a meaningless challenge , an attack challenge, and I’m going to side with John here.

He was talking about financial merits and value.
You can discuss these without “enjoying” driving.

I’m a car guy and love driving. He doesn’t.
Ok, we don’t all have to like the same thing..

It’s a stupid argument.

When folks are comparing Tesla’s they are usually comparing nicer cars like Audi’s, BMW’s, MB and if it’s worth switching to a Tesla. Or even a nice Hybrid. Not a 12 year old tin can. If driving cars isn’t important at all you could make a monetary argument it’s cheaper to go with 12 year tin can vs any car let a alone a Tesla.

It’s John turning yet another discussion into a stupid one.

Yes, it’s cheaper to drive old cheap cars.

You could argue it’s cheaper to not own a car and just use Uber too.

Why did he buy a new convertible sports car if he hates driving?
I don’t buy any of his BS, I think he’s bored and just trying to stir things up.

What challenge?
You making up more stuff in your head of how others are thinking again?

[John Mercier]

But that is where it must go if it is to survive...
Life cycle and value.

I do not have the 12 year old car... it was given to someone that drove it another 4 years.

Current auto is 2016. I would be comparing a new car to a new car in the same brand... Tesla isn't on my list. It would be an Ioniq against an Accent. I don't spend enough time in a vehicle to make it worth more than basic transportation.

But the concept should be the same...

[thinkxingu]

It’s a stupid argument.

When folks are comparing Tesla’s they are usually comparing nicer cars like Audi’s, BMW’s, MB and if it’s worth switching to a Tesla. Or even a nice Hybrid. Not a 12 year old tin can. If driving cars isn’t important at all you could make a monetary argument it’s cheaper to go with 12 year tin can vs any car let a alone a Tesla.

It’s John turning yet another discussion into a stupid one.

Yes, it’s cheaper to drive old cheap cars.

You could argue it’s cheaper to not own a car and just use Uber too.

Why did he buy a new convertible sports car if he hates driving?
I don’t buy any of his BS, I think he’s bored and just trying to stir things up.

What challenge?
You making up more stuff in your head of how others are thinking again?John's point above was that the "math doesn't work for [him]," which I think is an essential point both personally and as a culture.

I've pointed out a few times that your financial assumptions aren't reality for the sizable majority of America.

Yes, Teslas/EVs have great tech, may be fun to drive, and may, if all things come together, be financially and ecologically efficient.

But for $96k, the price of your Tesla SUV, I could buy two 4Runners and 20+ years of service.

Or three Subarus and 30+ years of service...

It's no different than the guy who chose two rolls of toilet paper yesterday rather than the multi-pack that saves 25% and comes more easily packaged: to buy into solar or EVs usually requires money people don't have.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[mswlogo]

John's point above was that the "math doesn't work for [him]," which I think is an essential point both personally and as a culture.

I've pointed out a few times that your financial assumptions aren't reality for the sizable majority of America.

Yes, Teslas/EVs have great tech, may be fun to drive, and may, if all things come together, be financially and ecologically efficient.

But for $96k, the price of your Tesla SUV, I could buy two 4Runners and 20+ years of service.

Or three Subarus and 30+ years of service...

It's no different than the guy who chose two rolls of toilet paper yesterday rather than the multi-pack that saves 25% and comes more easily packaged: to buy into solar or EVs usually requires money people don't have.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I’ve repeatedly said you are not gonna save money driving a Model S or X.
But if these depreciations hold (which they probably won’t) I could end up spending as much as you did on 2 forerunners. Depreciation is about 2% over the last 2.5 years. Maybe a 4Runner is too.

Just as you can’t compare a civic to and say an Audi. You can’t compare a 4Runner to a Model X. I could make the same argument it’s dumb to buy a 4Runner when you can get a Subaru.

Someone on the Tesla Forum that lives in an RV park and owns a golf cart was trying to sort out charging. He does like 10 miles a week (mostly in his golf cart). No a Tesla is a complete loss. He will lose 10 miles a week with the car just sitting there.

We are in a thread about gas prices. If you don’t drive much, who cares. We should be discussing similar cars and the trade off of EV vs Gas. Not cheap cars vs expensive ones. Or your needs of driving a lot or a little. Not really interested in discussing that. But John likes to twist topics.

That said , you can’t compare a Tesla to anything else.

It’s a blazing hot day, we drive by this place that looks good to eat. But we have the dogs with us. No problem put it doggy mode.

I’m in the garage working on my app, or waiting for my wife at the hospital. Turn the car on and watch a movie. No fumes nothing. It’s so nice having a car that does not spew poisonous gases.

It’s late, I’m tired, I made a bad judgement call and I’m driving. The car swerves to avoid a pedestrian.

I could go on and on. It’s a one year waiting list to get a Model X. And it’s not due to parts shortages.

Stuck in traffic, turn on Biohazard mode.

People camp in them. By putting them in Camp mode.

Acceleration is the last reason I get Tesla an I leave in Chill mode 99% of the time.

What are the chances of a Roll over in 4Runner vs a Model X?
That alone is worth it to me and you can’t put a price on it.

[thinkxingu]

I’ve repeatedly said you are not gonna save money driving a Model S or X.

There are two points I and others are making here:

1. That, on a thread about fuel costs, the answer isn't simply electric vehicles as there's much more to the equation than just fuel.

2. The "offhand" way people talk about buying EVs, solar, and other high-initial-cost systems that just isn't realistic for much/most of America.

I'd love a vehicle I don't have to put fuel in, but it would need to be overall cost effective, have a low initial buy-in, and be able to do what I need it to do beyond just driving.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[mswlogo]

There are two points I and others are making here:

1. That, on a thread about fuel costs, the answer isn't simply electric vehicles as there's much more to the equation than just fuel.

2. The "offhand" way people talk about buying EVs, solar, and other high-initial-cost systems that just isn't realistic for much/most of America.

I'd love a vehicle I don't have to put fuel in, but it would need to be overall cost effective, have a low initial buy-in, and be able to do what I need it to do beyond just driving.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Agreed.

Keep in mind, that this forum isn’t average America ;)

Many here have two homes (one on the lake).
Many have expensive boats.
Many have a home.
Many have multiple expensive cars.

So why do we keep bringing up folks that can’t afford Solar?

I think many are misinformed about Solar, incentives and EV’s.

And as you said there are other perks going with EV besides fuel.

One other thing I’d like to mention that is on topic.

Conserving:

Once I got Solar, I had them add a consumption meter as well.
That was a good move, albeit a bit over priced.

Once you could visually see what you produced and consumed it became a game.

What’s using all the power?

After digging around I found a lot of waste.
My high end active speakers were using 20 watts each on standby.

Do the math 9 speakers * 20 watts * 24 hrs * 365 days = 1.57 mega watts/year
That’s 20% of my entire Solar Production !!
I put a smart remote in that now powers them down when not used.

Also found a heater that runs 24/7 in my brand new “high efficiency” AC system.
It was like 80 watts. Now I flip the breaker off in Winter. I need to make sure I wait a few days after I turn breaker on before I run A/C.

That savings right there was enough to cover all my EV charging.

I found many more with diminishing returns. But I probably cut my electricity use in half.

Conservation on EV:

Don’t precondition. So many people think they save fuel because the car will run full regen in winter if they preheat the battery. It will cost more to heat the battery than regen will save.

Some say switch to scheduled charging in the morning. That wastes fuel too. Car will heat the battery before it charges. You are better off charging when you get home with a warm battery.

Don’t use auto precondition when navigating to supercharger. It will save time charging. But it will net cost you. I don’t care because supercharging is free. But it’s still a waste of fuel to save time.

Get an attached insulated garage. That’s yet another requirement for EV I’d recommend in snow country. Not required, but really really nice to have. Battery does not get as cold and you don’t need to use fuel to melt Ice and snow.

All cars:

Make sure your tire pressure is up. I tended to run a few pounds above door tag on my ICE cars. Especially in winter. I always did long drives at night so my tires never get that hot (and pressure to high). This can save a LOT on fuel. I don’t do that on EV’s. Why? because Elon already knows that trick and they run the tires on the high side. Tires still lasted great.

Keep your distance with cars in front of you so you can coast to slower your speed rather than use brakes. Every time you hit the brakes you’re wasting fuel. It’s also safer and more relaxing. One thing I don’t like about Auto Pilot is it follows to close.

You don’t need to warm up ICE, just suck it up, get in and go. Doable with a garage.

[thinkxingu]

Agreed.

Keep in mind, that this forum isn’t average America ;)

Many here have two homes (one on the lake).
Many have expensive boats.
Many have a home.
Many have multiple expensive cars.

So why do we keep bringing up folks that can’t afford Solar?

I don't know the statistics, but I know enough people behind the scenes that are not as well off as you might assume and, even if they have second homes, toys, etc., they may do so much less expensively.

So, I bring up initial investment costs because having that amount of available money just isn't as common as it once was...especially if one wants to enjoy those cars, toys, etc....which in turn limits how quickly green options become mainstream...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[FlyingScot]

But that is where it must go if it is to survive...
Life cycle and value.

I do not have the 12 year old car... it was given to someone that drove it another 4 years.

Current auto is 2016. I would be comparing a new car to a new car in the same brand... Tesla isn't on my list. It would be an Ioniq against an Accent. I don't spend enough time in a vehicle to make it worth more than basic transportation.

But the concept should be the same...

You inspired me to check more closely--Ioniq looks great! Really nice SUV with 300 miles of range for less than $40K after incentives. But isn't the Accent an econobox? Nothing wrong with that, but not really a direct comparison. The Hyundai website shows a number of EVs with direct comparisons to internal combustion that look really attractive. You might check out the electric Kona SUV--it appears to match the gas price, even before $7,500+ in tax rebates, and available this month in Mass. (but maybe there's fine print or a misleading website?)

Though I agree with msw on the math and this forum not being representative of America, I agree with you and Think on the general point that EVs need to be for everybody. Hyundai is on the right track :)

[John Mercier]

Afford and ''waste'' are two different items.

People always tell me that saving more, when I will never need it, is stupid... but it is the way that I and others work.
We don't see depreciating assets as value, except for the monetary equation.

Solar, at least what I have been told, is based on location and system sizing for the most part. My location allows for some... but the biggest effect would be if I used more electricity, or if I wanted to replace domestic water heating.

The domestic water heating will be more of my focus as I redesign my raised beds.

[Juiced06GTO]

People clearly do not have a lot of savings - this is just transactional account data, not retirement accounts. The average American is not paying up front to add solar to their house, or buying $96k Tesla's. Those that are doing that are taking on debt to make it happen.

Average savings by age (per 2019 Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finances) - the article I pulled this from - https://www.firstrepublic.com/articles-insights/life-money/grow-your-wealth/a-look-at-the-average-americans-savings

Younger than 35
Median - $3,240 Mean - $11,250
35 to 44
Median - $4,710 Mean - $27,910
45 to 54
Median - $5,620 Mean - $48,200
55 to 64
Median - $6,400 Mean - $55,320
65 to 74
Median - $8,000 Mean - $57,670
75 and older
Median - $9,300 Mean - $60,410

[John Mercier]

I think the costs will come down and be comparable over time.
Solar will fill whatever space it can in the diversified supply of electricity... but I really see it jumping when green hydrogen becomes the norm. Amory was on cars when Elon was just learning to use the big boy potty... and even back then he was strong on hydrogen; just the technology was more blue hydrogen being looked at.

[mswlogo]

I don't know the statistics, but I know enough people behind the scenes that are not as well off as you might assume and, even if they have second homes, toys, etc., they may do so much less expensively.

So, I bring up initial investment costs because having that amount of available money just isn't as common as it once was...especially if one wants to enjoy those cars, toys, etc....which in turn limits how quickly green options become mainstream...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Stop assuming you need to be rich to do Solar.
All your doing is convincing folks it’s out of reach.

You DO NOT need all cash up front. But that will give the best ROI.

Some lease deals go something like this. They lock you in at a lower electric rate. They upgrade your service for free. All repairs are free for 20 years. If system does not produce (broken or snow covered) they pay your electric bill. You pay nothing out of pocket. And system is yours free and clear after 20 years. Even folks that do have the cash go that route because they rather invest that cash.

Enough about being too poor for Solar. Too naive maybe.

It’s a no brainer.

[thinkxingu]

Stop assuming you need to be rich to do Solar.
All your doing is convincing folks it’s out of reach.

You DO NOT need all cash up front. But that will give the best ROI.

Some lease deals go something like this. They lock you in at a lower electric rate. They upgrade your service for free. All repairs are free for 20 years. If system does not produce (broken or snow covered) they pay your electric bill. You pay nothing out of pocket. And system is yours free and clear after 20 years. Even folks that do have the cash go that route because they rather invest that cash.

Enough about being too poor for Solar. Too naive maybe.

It’s a no brainer.The resident solar guy himself said that leasing is not an awesome idea (#80), and I've had friends who got porked by roof issues that "weren't covered" and resale issues when putting their houses on the market. Add to that a much different ROI calculation, and blech.

I've done the math to have solar installed twice, with two different installers, and the money I would've had to front—or take loans on—would have prohibited other things in my life. I think that's the simple reality for most people in America and that, frankly, you're out of touch.

It takes money to save money!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[mswlogo]

The resident solar guy himself said that leasing is not an awesome idea (#80), and I've had friends who got porked by roof issues that "weren't covered" and resale issues when putting their houses on the market. Add to that a much different ROI calculation, and blech.

I've done the math to have solar installed twice, with two different installers, and the money I would've had to front—or take loans on—would have prohibited other things in my life. I think that's the simple reality for most people in America and that, frankly, you're out of touch.

It takes money to save money!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I have friends that leased and it worked out great for them

Your right about tricky selling your home with roof leased out. There are ways of dealing with that. Oh many companies will put in a new roof too.

All methods save money. Like anything, you need to stay on top of things and not sit back and let the “professionals” run the show. That goes for purchased or leased.

You can also do a loan. That’s right poor people have bad credit.
With a loan. You own it. You get tax break. You get all incentives like SRECs in MA.

With a loan. What you used to pay in electricity you pay towards the loan. So initially you save nothing. But as time goes on it pays back. Especially if electric rates go up.

https://www.consumerreports.org/energy-saving/real-cost-of-leasing-vs-buying-solar-panels/

Great, you talked yourself out of it. I don’t know anyone that is unhappy with going with Solar by any means.

Is anyone here unhappy they got Solar?

[Garcia]

The resident solar guy himself said that leasing is not an awesome idea (#80), and I've had friends who got porked by roof issues that "weren't covered" and resale issues when putting their houses on the market. Add to that a much different ROI calculation, and blech.

I've done the math to have solar installed twice, with two different installers, and the money I would've had to front—or take loans on—would have prohibited other things in my life. I think that's the simple reality for most people in America and that, frankly, you're out of touch.

It takes money to save money!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I was skeptical about solar but it made sense for me. I ended up with no money down, a state and federal refund (I was able to spread the federal over two years), 10 years of SREC credits that provide a quarterly check, a below market rate loan, and net metering. The loan program I qualified for wrote off 25% of the cost of the install the day the system went live (but I could still deduct 100% of the cost on my taxes). Since having it installed my electric bill is nothing for 9 months of the year and the three months I do pay are lower than what they were before the panels. The monthly electric bill coupled with the SREC checks offsets the loan. I would have liked to make the system bigger as I had the space, but if I had, I would not have been eligible for the 25% write off and favorable loan rate.

I found out about this program (I am in MA) through a friend who is a green energy consultant. Once I connected with an installer who also knew about the program, things went smoothly.

I don't believe this specific program is still around, but do agree that there are affordable ways to go solar for many people (but of course not everyone).

[John Mercier]

I believe that MA did a lot more toward solar - renewable in general - than NH did.

[Garcia]

I believe that MA did a lot more toward solar - renewable in general - than NH did.

When I put mine in I was told that MA was #2 in the nation for clean energy incentives. This was a few years ago - I don't know how accurate that was then or now.

[Juiced06GTO]

Most of the sweet heart deals are going by the wayside in Mass. if not already expired, my guess is because all that "free" stuff that went along with the programs got to expensive to sustain. The new SREC program is nowhere near as lucrative as the previous one, the quote I showed above shows "potential" payouts by the program.

That being said, it can work for some people. Once I can get National Grid off their arse, and my new service into my barn, I will be strongly considering adding it to the roof to help offset some of my electrical usage. I will be doing quite a bit of electrical intensive activities in there (welding/plasma cutting/air compressor) and am hoping this will help offset some of the increase in my expected electrical usage at the expense of outlaying the 40 grand up front...

[FlyingScot]

I've done the math to have solar installed twice, with two different installers, and the money I would've had to front—or take loans on—would have prohibited other things in my life. I think that's the simple reality for most people in America and that, frankly, you're out of touch.

It takes money to save money!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I don't know your roof or your financial situation (although you have found cash for awesome stuff such as a camp and a fleet of watercraft;)), so I can't tell you that solar would be a good investment for you...

But for many people with a sunny roof, the annual financial return on solar is >15%, and home equity loans are available for much less than that. In this context, a solar roof is the best investment that a "normal" person can make--much better than the expected returns on stocks, real estate, etc. That's not to say that there have not been years better than 15% for stocks and real estate, only that the average annual return is much less and the risk is much higher on these other things. The right comparison is not against a boat or other fun toy, it is against retirement savings, such as a 401K.

(Please do not tell me I am out of touch to suggest you bet your retirement. I am not suggesting that, only that you might think of this as part of a portfolio of investments. It's a high yield bond with relatively low risk.)

[LakeDad]

I don't know your roof or your financial situation (although you have found cash for awesome stuff such as a camp and a fleet of watercraft;)), so I can't tell you that solar would be a good investment for you...

But for many people with a sunny roof, the annual financial return on solar is &gt;15%, and home equity loans are available for much less than that. In this context, a solar roof is the best investment that a "normal" person can make--much better than the expected returns on stocks, real estate, etc. That's not to say that there have not been years better than 15% for stocks and real estate, only that the average annual return is much less and the risk is much higher on these other things. The right comparison is not against a boat or other fun toy, it is against retirement savings, such as a 401K.

(Please do not tell me I am out of touch to suggest you bet your retirement. I am not suggesting that, only that you might think of this as part of a portfolio of investments. It's a high yield bond with relatively low risk.)

My problem is lack of house commitment.
I buy one, make careful upgrades that are likely to yield a return (or at least not a loss), find another home, and do it again.

My longest ownership ever was 4 years. I’ve owned 4 homes since 2014.

It’s always “the one” until it isn’t.

Because of that, it would make no sense to install solar under any circumstances, unless I was stone cold settled on staying for 20 years. Of course, as soon as I make that commitment, I’ll see another house the next day [emoji23]

I’m not complaining: It’s been financially favorable, but we always joke about never going too far with upgrades.

[Descant]

My problem is lack of house commitment.
I buy one, make careful upgrades that are likely to yield a return (or at least not a loss), find another home, and do it again.

My longest ownership ever was 4 years. I’ve owned 4 homes since 2014.

It’s always “the one” until it isn’t.

Because of that, it would make no sense to install solar under any circumstances, unless I was stone cold settled on staying for 20 years. Of course, as soon as I make that commitment, I’ll see another house the next day [emoji23]

I’m not complaining: It’s been financially favorable, but we always joke about never going too far with upgrades.

Be careful. Sounds like a lot of eggs in one basket. Another 2008 will come again and the eggs will all break at the same time.

[mswlogo]

My problem is lack of house commitment.
I buy one, make careful upgrades that are likely to yield a return (or at least not a loss), find another home, and do it again.

My longest ownership ever was 4 years. I’ve owned 4 homes since 2014.

It’s always “the one” until it isn’t.

Because of that, it would make no sense to install solar under any circumstances, unless I was stone cold settled on staying for 20 years. Of course, as soon as I make that commitment, I’ll see another house the next day [emoji23]

I’m not complaining: It’s been financially favorable, but we always joke about never going too far with upgrades.

On average, houses will sell better with Solar.
It’s like any other investment in your home.

They ask for utility bills, right?
Buyer sees $0.00, you think theirs eyes would light up!

It’s hard to go wrong with Solar.
Folks here seem to try real hard to find reasons to give power companies their money.

[thinkxingu]

I don't know your roof or your financial situation (although you have found cash for awesome stuff such as a camp and a fleet of watercraft;)), so I can't tell you that solar would be a good investment for you...

But for many people with a sunny roof, the annual financial return on solar is &gt;15%, and home equity loans are available for much less than that. In this context, a solar roof is the best investment that a "normal" person can make--much better than the expected returns on stocks, real estate, etc. That's not to say that there have not been years better than 15% for stocks and real estate, only that the average annual return is much less and the risk is much higher on these other things. The right comparison is not against a boat or other fun toy, it is against retirement savings, such as a 401K.

(Please do not tell me I am out of touch to suggest you bet your retirement. I am not suggesting that, only that you might think of this as part of a portfolio of investments. It's a high yield bond with relatively low risk.)It's an equation with many variables, among which is the cost now vs. the cost over 30 years.

Other variables—for us—were roof age, roof orientation and tree cover questions, town tax codes (my town was, until recently, increasing home values with solar so there was an increase in taxes), initial investment costs, etc.

It's been a couple years, but when we'd looked we had heard too many horror stories about leasing and the other variables just didn't add up.

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[LakeDad]

Be careful. Sounds like a lot of eggs in one basket. Another 2008 will come again and the eggs will all break at the same time.

I’m fine, thank you.
I just happen to change houses a lot.
It’s not an investment strategy. I have other holdings.

The nerve of people [emoji23]

I’m well aware of 2008 and weathered it.

[LakeDad]

On average, houses will sell better with Solar.
It’s like any other investment in your home.

They ask for utility bills, right?
Buyer sees $0.00, you think theirs eyes would light up!

It’s hard to go wrong with Solar.
Folks here seem to try real hard to find reasons to give power companies their money.

Who cares if it sells for more, but you still lose $ in the sale overall? Do you sell solar?

Should you do an $80k upgrade to get $50k more sale price?

Installing solar in a short term own would not work out well for anyone other than a solar salesman.

[mswlogo]

Who cares if it sells for more, but you still lose $ in the sale overall? Do you sell solar?

Should you do an $80k upgrade to get $50k more sale price?

Installing solar in a short term own would not work out well for anyone other than a solar salesman.

Right now, I bet people that paid $20K will get $40K
Or with the housing market likely to crash soon, Solar could be the edge that makes your house sell and your neighbors not.

Must be fun moving every 4 years.

I don’t make my home my profit center.

[webmaster]

The topic of this thread is "what effect high fuel costs will have on boating this summer."

Please stop hijacking threads. Stay with the topic or don't post.

[Garcia]

My boat will be launched in late April - I'm excited to be back on the water and opening up the house regardless of the price of fuel!

I don't think fuel prices will have much impact on boating in the short term. If prices stay high I think any impact will show up in 2023.

[mswlogo]

“cost of fuel” last I looked.

[thinkxingu]

Now that I've got two skis on a double trailer, I may be inclined to fill up at the local station rather than on the water.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[LakeDad]

Right now, I bet people that paid $20K will get $40K
Or with the housing market likely to crash soon, Solar could be the edge that makes your house sell and your neighbors not.

Must be fun moving every 4 years.

I don’t make my home my profit center.


“Must be fun moving every 4 years.”

How about minding your own business?

People like you, making judgement with little to no information. It says a lot more about you than it does me. You have no idea why I moved a lot, do you?

You’re just another salesman who thinks everyone should be your customer.

“Everyone needs solar”. Ok, buddy.

I don’t care what you do or don’t do with your home.
See how that works? Got nothing useful to interact with? Move on.

Edit: “Ignore” feature activated.

[mswlogo]

“Must be fun moving every 4 years.”

How about minding your own business?

People like you, making judgement with little to no information. It says a lot more about you than it does me. You have no idea why I moved a lot, do you?

You’re just another salesman who thinks everyone should be your customer.

“Everyone needs solar”. Ok, buddy.

I don’t care what you do or don’t do with your home.
See how that works? Got nothing useful to interact with? Move on.

Edit: “Ignore” feature activated.

Warden said… Stay on topic.

[John Mercier]

My boat will be launched in late April - I'm excited to be back on the water and opening up the house regardless of the price of fuel!

I don't think fuel prices will have much impact on boating in the short term. If prices stay high I think any impact will show up in 2023.

I expect that most will be.
High fuel, or any other item, tends to only change our behavior at the fringe.

If the prices went ballistic, well, I think that would be different.
It would impact the economy so badly that politicians would need to pull out all the stops. Something that I think we have not seen in my adult lifetime.

[Juiced06GTO]

Sorry for contributing to the off topic mess...

That being said, oil slid today, so it is anyone's guess at this point what the summer prices will look like! I trailer my boat, so will make sure to be filling on land, the week we stay at Winni, we have lots of friends with us who are overly generous with helping fuel the boat for the week we are there adventuring. All together it is still way cheaper than a week at someplace like disney, and in my opinion, way more fun! See you guys on the lake!

[MAXUM]

Hopefully it doesn't get any worse than this..... then again we out here are a little on the expensive side - cheapo ethanol laced gas is about 10 cents cheaper per gallon. I steer clear of that crap though. Love this stuff is everywhere and my vehicles love it. So will my boat which may get splashed this weekend. Hopefully nobody pays attention to my expired 2021 NH reg on it.

[Juiced06GTO]

Maxum did you move off the lake?

The guys in the hot rod world love E85 if you can set the EFI up the right way with larger fuel pump, injectors, etc., it makes lots o power! I never bothered with my race car because E85 is tough to find out here.

[MAXUM]

Maxum did you move off the lake?

The guys in the hot rod world love E85 if you can set the EFI up the right way with larger fuel pump, injectors, etc., it makes lots o power! I never bothered with my race car because E85 is tough to find out here.

I didn't just move off the lake, I moved to Idaho. For sure the hardest thing was to part ways with was my place on Bear Island. Thing is as I was weighing a lot of things, the property taxes in NH are just plain stupid and long term planning for retirement was looking bleak at the prospects of being able to hang on to two properties in NH as the amount of the checks I was stroking for taxes alone was getting to be insane now never mind 10 or 30 years from now.

No worries I'll be back to visit.

[John Mercier]

They estimate that your investment portfolio must be about 7.5 times the value of your home(s) to maintain your standard of living.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-right-retirement-formula-is-based-on-the-value-of-your-home-2019-03-20#:~:text=1.%20Take%20the%20market%20value%20of%2 0your%20house%2C,a%20house%20whose%20market%20valu e%20is%20%241.4%20million.

[upthesaukee]

I didn't just move off the lake, I moved to Idaho. For sure the hardest thing was to part ways with was my place on Bear Island. Thing is as I was weighing a lot of things, the property taxes in NH are just plain stupid and long term planning for retirement was looking bleak at the prospects of being able to hang on to two properties in NH as the amount of the checks I was stroking for taxes alone was getting to be insane now never mind 10 or 30 years from now.

No worries I'll be back to visit.

I've been to Kuna. I was stationed at Mountain Home AFB in the 1972-74. There was an exit off the interstate that said "Kuna" that we passed by the times. We took the exit one time and it was not much more than a cross road. It sure has grown.

Enjoy your time out there. We spent a lot of time camping around Anderson Ranch Dam and up toward the Trinity Lake area.

Back to the subject at hand.

Dave

[DickR]

They estimate that your investment portfolio must be about 7.5 times the value of your home(s) to maintain your standard of living...

While the formulae in that article may be (very crudely) ballpark for some folks in some areas, the article is fairly useless in many areas of NH lakes region. The market value of lakefront homes often is a poor indication of the income or living standard of the owners. Recent years have pushed market values way up, but that is a reflection of the buying power and perhaps living standard of prospective owners, not the current owners.

[WinnisquamZ]

Must keep in mind a fallback position for staying in your home as one ages is a reverse mortgage. Many law and rule changes over the past 20 years makes this a valuable tool in our later years. One should not be sitting on a million dollar lake house and have difficulty paying bills


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[John Mercier]

While the formulae in that article may be (very crudely) ballpark for some folks in some areas, the article is fairly useless in many areas of NH lakes region. The market value of lakefront homes often is a poor indication of the income or living standard of the owners. Recent years have pushed market values way up, but that is a reflection of the buying power and perhaps living standard of prospective owners, not the current owners.

We are a little off track here... but the cost of fuel will impact everything.

The NH property taxes will make up the difference.

Even studies in NH show that most retirees are more concerned with the amount of income they currently have... future prospects are for Medicare costs to increase (Part A Trust fund insolvency would result in lower payouts to hospitals) and decreased OASI (Social Security) monthly benefits.

*Update... the govt cap is now 970,800. I think when Peter Bennett updated his blog he forgot to update that number.




But even if we took a prior to dramatic price increases... a very low percentage of residents are meeting the mark. Early retirees are usually happy... but the longer they live the worse it gets. That may be the result of too much spending in early retirement, or trying to cover the deferment of property repair/upgrade prepping for physical changes.

Also, according to Peter Bennett - a staff writer at MyBankTracker.com, there is a govt cap on HECM provided with FHA of 625,500 regardless of the value of the home and a 1.25% annual premium. The only private lender going beyond that cap is Tulsa, Okla.-based Urban Financial of America. They will go 40% of equity up to $2.5 million... but no competition means high fees.

The cost of fuel will have both short and long term impacts as it builds into our system. We may see the prices in the future fall, but they generally do not fall back to where they were prior to the surge. Boating, as with many things, is a long term commitment. Yes, some will sell-out, as I did... but many will need to adjust short term to endure long term. The ''offsets'' will differ for each boater, but the ''offsets'' also have longer term effects.

I am sure that marinas are needing to think about product like we are. They will need to determine how much product to purchase for future demand years ahead of delivery due to the supply lines. Restaurants/etc may be trying to determine what they need for this summer... but even they have to think about the longer term capital investments that they will be making in the business.

[garysanfran]

Isn't tapping into your petroleum reserve to lower fuel costs like...

Tapping into your savings account to stem your loss of wealth? If you take from your left hand and give it to the right, the body as a whole has not improved.

[WinnisquamZ]

Isn't tapping into your petroleum reserve to lower fuel costs like...

Tapping into your savings account to stem your loss of wealth? If you take from your left hand and give it to the right, the body as a whole has not improved.

Correct, grasshopper


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[tis]

Isn't tapping into your petroleum reserve to lower fuel costs like...

Tapping into your savings account to stem your loss of wealth? If you take from your left hand and give it to the right, the body as a whole has not improved.

And if we tap into the reserve, isn't it only enough for a couple of days?

[TiltonBB]

And if we tap into the reserve, isn't it only enough for a couple of days?

At our current consumption rate of about 20 million barrels a day, the Strategic Petroleum Reserve would last only 36 days if we were faced with a situation where the oil had to be released all at once.

However, only 4.4 million barrels a day can be withdrawn, extending our supply to 165 days

[BoatHouse]

“Based on the price of oil, I’ve also instructed the Secretary of Energy to purchase at a very good price large quantities of crude oil for storage in the U.S. strategic reserve,” US President said.

“We’re going to fill it right up to the top, saving the American taxpayer billions and billions of dollars, helping our oil industry [and furthering] that wonderful goal — which we’ve achieved, which nobody thought was possible — of energy independence,” he added.

[garysanfran]

And from what country will we be purchasing the replacement petroleum?

[LikeLakes]

You guys just don't understand how this works.

We buy massive amounts of oil, and store it in caverns in the ground. Then every day we buy massive amounts of oil and consume it, but in the process of consuming it we have Big Oil companies doing the refining of the final products we use. It is imperative that each Big Oil company has hundreds if not thousands of employees making over a million dollars a year, to supervise the 10's of thousands of refinery and transportation workers that make $40,000 to $70,000 a year. All those massive salaries combined with share buybacks and shareholder dividends put the price at the pump at all time highs. Therefore the government releases the oil purchased at lower prices from the reserve and replaces it with high priced oil, while Big Oil still makes all that money on every gallon we consume, even the oil from the reserves. Simple, see? :)

All kidding aside, oil companies are using this high priced environment to pad their profits at record levels at the expense of all of us, while still being handed money by the government. It's out of control.

[Descant]

LikeLakes, I think I understand, but my wife owns the car, so she buys the gas. Higher gas prices just don't affect me. She owns the house too, so I don't pay for oil either. On the other hand, I own a piece of Exxon and Chevron and I don't share the dividends, so it's all balanced out.

[John Mercier]

And from what country will we be purchasing the replacement petroleum?

The US. It is always purchased from US suppliers when the market price is low, and sold into the market of US refiners when the market prices is high.

The price is set globally, but the physical stock is transported the shortest distance available.

[John Mercier]

“Based on the price of oil, I’ve also instructed the Secretary of Energy to purchase at a very good price large quantities of crude oil for storage in the U.S. strategic reserve,” US President said.

“We’re going to fill it right up to the top, saving the American taxpayer billions and billions of dollars, helping our oil industry [and furthering] that wonderful goal — which we’ve achieved, which nobody thought was possible — of energy independence,” he added.

We achieved energy independence largely through the extreme capital investment that allowed for supply growth to be higher than demand growth.
Demand growth was then initiated with the ban on Venezuelan petroleum products, and increases in the amount of export to historic levels.

With US demand higher, and European demand absorbing more, the prices are going to be higher until the global demand drops.

Companies involved in exploration and extraction are not going to hire and train new crews, or expend massive capital on inflated equipment prices and fractured supply lines... as investors we expect a ROI, and that means really good dividends for the coming years - not more investment into heady over-the-top expansion.

[searay]

Simple message. Our politicians are useless. No matter what side you are on we should never be in this position. Gas should be somewhere between $2-$3. They never admit to the real issue. New refineries, pipelines and incentives would eliminate this problem. It has nothing to do with clean energy. Does anyone with half a brain really believe that we can't build clean energy facilities in 2022. What Washington needs is more engineers and less lawyers. Such a disgrace.

[garysanfran]

The benefit is to the producing countries like Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Russia.

Can't be a beneficiary, if you don't produce.

Maybe the USA should return to #1 exporter and complete independence? Be a win-win for the Home team!

[TiltonBB]

LikeLakes, I think I understand, but my wife owns the car, so she buys the gas. Higher gas prices just don't affect me. She owns the house too, so I don't pay for oil either. On the other hand, I own a piece of Exxon and Chevron and I don't share the dividends, so it's all balanced out.

Does she have a sister? Do you happen to have a picture? (Asking for a friend)

[John Mercier]

The oil companies have laid out plans to return capital to investors.
They have laid out that hiring/training new crews and purchasing new equipment will be done on a long term strategic program. No one can make them change.

[John Mercier]

The benefit is to the producing countries like Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Russia.

Can't be a beneficiary, if you don't produce.

Maybe the USA should return to #1 exporter and complete independence? Be a win-win for the Home team!
We have never been the #1 net exporter; and we are the #1 producer.

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/what-countries-are-the-top-producers-of-oil#:~:text=As%20per%20the%20International%20Energ y%20Agency%20%28IEA%29%2C%20Saudi,world%20behind%2 0the%20United%20States%20and%20Saudi%20Arabia.

[LikeLakes]

We achieved energy independence largely through the extreme capital investment that allowed for supply growth to be higher than demand growth.
Demand growth was then initiated with the ban on Venezuelan petroleum products, and increases in the amount of export to historic levels.

With US demand higher, and European demand absorbing more, the prices are going to be higher until the global demand drops.

Companies involved in exploration and extraction are not going to hire and train new crews, or expend massive capital on inflated equipment prices and fractured supply lines... as investors we expect a ROI, and that means really good dividends for the coming years - not more investment into heady over-the-top expansion.

John, excellent points. I'd add that all exploration and R&D are not the same. The major investment and focus on fracked and other new tech over the past decade plus proved to be only financially viable in times of higher oil prices, and the half life of the wells is very short, so they don't have anywhere near as much time and quantity to amortize the investment over. I don't think we'll see that extreme push again, even given the high current oil prices. They are able to sit back, do what they do, and operate at massively profitable levels.

[John Mercier]

Devon, which I think is still the largest independent in shale, expects to grow its output by about 5 percent annually. But most of its earnings are going to be returned as dividends to its investors... rather than sunk into expansion.

[sluggo]

Very interesting conversation ! so with all said here gas prices are really going to suck this year :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[WinnisquamZ]

Believe I saw $5.19 at Winnisquam marine earlier this week


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[fatlazyless]

...... say-hey ..... lose the gasoline burning engine ..... and go with a kayak or sup paddle .... age-68; a NH fishing license price goes from $45 down to $7-dollars ..... while boat gas will cost about $5 to $6 /gal ..... :eek::laugh: .... and big, fast V-6 outboards burn up a lot of gas!

[LikeLakes]

Very interesting conversation ! so with all said here gas prices are really going to suck this year :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I don't have a clue where gas prices are going to go over the next year. I tend to think they will back off a bit from these highs but remain elevated through the year.

The world has more than enough oil even without Russia, just need a re-balancing and as someone else mentioned there is a need for more refining capacity. But there isn't a supply reason why crude prices can't drop, I'm sure oil producers will try to ride this cash cow as long as they can by not increasing production as much as they probably could.

[John Mercier]

With all the gasoline being used for recreation and travel to second homes... it hasn't slowed... and so gasoline/oil are a reasonable risk/reward balance for stable-to-higher prices.

The downside is demand destruction - we saw short term during the pandemic and oil futures actually went negative; while the upside is maybe a natural disaster like Katrina.

[Boatbottom952]

I believe in 2025 when President Trump takes back the office, you will see a extreme difference in the way Liberals have been running the show. Biden wants us to think this is the " New Normal ". It's not nor ever will be. In November things will start to change, it will be different. When you see this Great Country come back around will be 1 day after President Trump takes office in 2025. Hope I live that long. We can't continue to spiral out of control like this. Gas will be back down to an affordable $$ for average people.

[dickiej]

Good one….you got us!

[garysanfran]

I believe in 2025 when President Trump takes back the office, you will see a extreme difference in the way Liberals have been running the show. Biden wants us to think this is the " New Normal ". It's not nor ever will be. In November things will start to change, it will be different. When you see this Great Country come back around will be 1 day after President Trump takes office in 2025. Hope I live that long. We can't continue to spiral out of control like this. Gas will be back down to an affordable $$ for average people.

I've long believed our democracy operates like a pendulum...Always trying to approach the center, with the swings from left-to-right, right-to-left... sometimes a bit more forceful, like it has been in the last few years. And I agree, in November the pendulum will swing again toward the center. Notice AOC is not in the news as frequently?

[garysanfran]

For regular in the Lakes Region? Out here, on the left coast, it's over $6.

I'll be back there buyin' soon!

[John Mercier]

I believe in 2025 when President Trump takes back the office, you will see a extreme difference in the way Liberals have been running the show. Biden wants us to think this is the " New Normal ". It's not nor ever will be. In November things will start to change, it will be different. When you see this Great Country come back around will be 1 day after President Trump takes office in 2025. Hope I live that long. We can't continue to spiral out of control like this. Gas will be back down to an affordable $$ for average people.

Capitalism... not politics... creates the pricing.
President Trump shut of the Venezuelan oil and shifted us to Russia.
He also opened up the door for more shipment overseas of LNG.
He broke the Iran deal, that took Iranian oil out of the picture.

But in the end... it is simply that you use too much. Same thing happened in wood when he was sitting as President... just too much demand for the commodity.