Gunstock Expansion Plans

[Fargo]

Any thoughts about Gunstock looking at a major expansion? I for one question their strategy considering skier participation has been in decline for the past 10 years. I went to Gunstock a few times midweek and the place was dead quiet Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. Maybe some basic upgrades on the lifts might be nice.

[John Mercier]

I haven't seen the whole plan, but since most of it will be done with private money... not really sure that the Gunstock Commission will get what it envisions.

[mcdude]

Here's an article about the expansion


https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/gunstock-eyes-major-expansion-adding-new-terrain-lifts-hotel/article_11046df4-38df-11ec-b80c-0f5db8370eef.html

[John Mercier]

I read the article, but that is all I had.

It appears that the hotel and mountain top restaurant would be a private partnership. And upgrading the road to the top would only be viable if those two (or at least one of the two) exist.

Snow making and lift upgrades aren't really that controversial.

[FlyingScot]

I don't quite get it. With a vertical drop of only 1300', Gunstock is never going to match Loon, Waterville, and Vermont areas as a premier destination. Plenty of areas >2,000' are well worth the drive, especially if staying overnight

[Descant]

I don't quite get it. With a vertical drop of only 1300', Gunstock is never going to match Loon, Waterville, and Vermont areas as a premier destination. Plenty of areas >2,000' are well worth the drive, especially if staying overnight

It's not all about vertical drop. I always thought of Gunstock as my "home" area, but I liked some of the others for amenities. Loon had none, but Waterville and Bretton Woods had summit or slope-side dining among other things. It wasn't all about vertical. Gunstock has long had great grooming (esp. noon groom) as well as shorter drive times from southern bases.

Gary Kadaiesch (sp?) and family have a long history of developing and supporting the ski industry. He's the perfect one to lead this effort.

[4 for Boating]

We used to have season passes to Gunstock - over time they sort of raised the prices (expected to some extent) and reduced the benefits so for the last few years we get the Epic Pass.

Besides being cheaper, you get access to many New England very good resorts (including Stowe - albeit that one with some date restrictions) as well as many world class resorts out west if you can find a way out there (We do each year). No brainer for us.

Can't understand/justify paying that kind of money $699 for such a tiny mountain with no partner resorts. Just Crazy!

[BroadHopper]

There is private money think Rusty Mclear. He is on the commission. So I'm not surprised.

Gary Kiedash (spelling) has an impressive resume regarding the ski industry. He even take credit at HEAD to bringing shaped skis to market!

Tom Day, the present Manager of Gunstock retired from WV, and Gary convinced him to work for him.

So I can see where this is leading to. Great if you have the terrain to support it, but being so close to the ocean you have a short season. Not a great idea.

I grew up on Gunstock. What attracted me is the small mountain feel yet the big mountain skiing. Take a look at all the other resorts. Crowded during the week, mega crowds on weekends. It's been a decade that I enjoy skiing these mountains. Once they change Gunstock to a 'mega' resort, it will be a disaster. I may have to change to Tenney or Ragged Mountain. Both are great skiing! I even bought the Indy Pass and I expect to try a number of Indy ski areas.

Tom made some significant improvements since he took over. Moving the ski rental shop from the cellar is a great step. Investment in ski grooming equipment and snowmaking is another. Prior season the snow sports park was the first to open for the season. Last winter, they were able to open the Panorama. This season Tom promised the whole mountain will be open on the first day! Bold statement!

As a lifelong resident of Belknap County, I would like to see it cater to Belknap County not to the world.

[thinkxingu]

As a lifelong resident of Belknap County, I would like to see it cater to Belknap County not to the world.

This is how I feel about most everything today, but can Gunstock exist without coming up with new revenue streams? I don't know much about Gunstock, per se, but I know ski hills in the Northeast are having a tough go of things, which is why they've all attempted to find summer uses, such as terrain parks, etc.

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[hd333]

As a lifelong resident of Belknap County, I would like to see it cater to Belknap County not to the world.

No offense but it is called tourism and without day trippers or weekend/weekly renters heading to Gunstock and paying full ticket prices it would not be able to operate. They are not staying afloat by selling early buy season passes and Belknap resident passes.

If Gunstock can keep the old school vibe it has while adding some amenities to attract more tourists dollars more power to them.


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[WinnisquamZ]

Not a skier, so I don’t know all the particulars, but why is the Gunstock ski area owned by the taxpayers? Would it not benefit the county if it was privately developed


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[Donzi Minx]

Imbued by the earlier years Penny Pitou, Egon Zimmerman, my family frequented the area often. The single chair lift / try me trail were outstanding for individual solitude. The old T-bar for Smith and Phelps, look at all of the great improvements that have been made over the years.
Last all season pass sometime around '68 or '69.
It should be an asset to the County, and to day trippers from Boston going to "Gunny" for the day.
I was ultimately very glad when the new double chair increased the uphill capacity. The old chair at one point used to give me nosebleeds at the highest span between pylons. What did I know at the time, just a snot nosed kid having a great time on the boards.
Shall we talk about the Arlberg......

[John Mercier]

Not a skier, so I don’t know all the particulars, but why is the Gunstock ski area owned by the taxpayers? Would it not benefit the county if it was privately developed


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)The posted article explains the means by which the county acquired it, and the payment made to the county.

There were many more ski hills in the region, all privately owned... they no longer exist.
The land will always be county-owned, but the business is a tough gig.

[Descant]

As a parallel, Cannon seems to be doing very well. The issue, whether public or private ownership, is how to make money year round. There used to be a "Profile House" Hotel near Cannon, which as was often the case, burned. NH should allow a new resort hotel in that area. The plan to expand resort hotel at Gunstock is a great one and follows what has been successful elsewhere. Does the Arlberg site have enough land for a golf course? There are other nearby places that could compliment. The team in place is excellent at regional development. I hope they move forward with all due haste. Maybe Kimball's Castle will come back after all with increased regional activity.

[John Mercier]

As a parallel, Cannon seems to be doing very well. The issue, whether public or private ownership, is how to make money year round. There used to be a "Profile House" Hotel near Cannon, which as was often the case, burned. NH should allow a new resort hotel in that area. The plan to expand resort hotel at Gunstock is a great one and follows what has been successful elsewhere. Does the Arlberg site have enough land for a golf course? There are other nearby places that could compliment. The team in place is excellent at regional development. I hope they move forward with all due haste. Maybe Kimball's Castle will come back after all with increased regional activity.I think it is around 10 acres. The inference I believe is to the history of the area. The Arlberg and Gunstock inns were built, along with the Acres, when Gunstock Ski Area was expected to boom. This was of course long before AirBnB.

[fatlazyless]

Gunstock Mountain and Belknap County could maybe build a mountain hotel high up atop their mountain that is similar to the A.M.C. www.outdoors.org/destinations/massachusetts-and-new-hampshire/highland-center/ in Crawford Notch which is on the site of the old Crawford House hotel that burned down in 1977.

Only build it so there's NO road for cars going up there, and hotel guests need to hike up the Belknap-High Line trail with their suitcase...... yahhhh! ... :banana:

[BroadHopper]

The old Alberg Inn site across from Gunstock has quite the history.
https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/arlberg-closing/article_8c813aa2-b99e-59ce-b29e-72e9dac3e089.html

There was a rope tow on the site in the 40s and 50s
http://www.nelsap.org/nh/arlberg.html

I knew Karl and his son and daughter, Rick and Kristine. Wonderful family! Spent many an evening after skiing at the Alberg with Penny Pitou ski instructors. Many Austrians such as the Buttingers and Zimmermans.

Around 2010, I assist a developer in factfinding for the property. He imagines the Hotel and a condo complex in the back, both retail and residential. The Gunstock delegates were all for it. The sticking point is sewer access. The town of Gilford refuses to extend the sewer line in front of Alpine Ridge road up the hill to the Alberg property. The developer's father was the one who built Gunstock Acres, Cherry Valley condominium and Pier 4 at the Weirs.

The Gunstock Inn started back when WPA was building the Belknap Recreation area in the 30s. The barack as it was called housed the WPA workers. It even had a rope tow on the hill in the back. Eventually became the 'club house' for Gunstock Acres HOA.

[SailinAway]

Just one thing I don't understand about this. In some years Gunstock has suffered heavily from lack of snow, warm days, and rain. If I wanted to make money, as Gunstock says its motive for the expansion is, I wouldn't invest in an industry that relies totally on cold weather. Of course, Gunstock has expanded their year-round activities, but this expansion seems to be about skiing.

[upthesaukee]

Perhaps you missed an earlier thread on this subject. See the thread here:
https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27566

Dave

[John Mercier]

The ability to make snow changes the outcome.
Activities that rely on natural snowfall tend to suffer and those people go looking for something else to do.

[SailinAway]

I don't quite get it. With a vertical drop of only 1300', Gunstock is never going to match Loon, Waterville, and Vermont areas as a premier destination. Plenty of areas >2,000' are well worth the drive, especially if staying overnight

I agree with you. I prefer Gunstock's low vertical drop because I am (or was) an intermediate skier. What made Gunstock attractive to me was that it's SMALL, MANAGEABLE, NEARBY, and used to be affordable for a day pass. I hated the overcrowding at Loon and having to take a train from one side to the other. Bigger is not better. Adding more trails to Gunstock would make it less rather than more attractive for me personally. This expansion will be the end of Gunstock's small, local flavor.

[SailinAway]

The ability to make snow changes the outcome.
Activities that rely on natural snowfall tend to suffer and those people go looking for something else to do.

Snow making depends on cold. The ski season is shrinking at both ends. UNH has done research on the impact of climate change on the ski industry, and it doesn't look good.

[DickR]

... What made Gunstock attractive to me was ... and used to be affordable for a day pass. I hated the overcrowding at Loon and having to take a train from one side to the other...

Once you hit 70, a season pass at Gunstock is $49. That's almost free skiing. As for Loon crowding, midweek isn't bad at all. And taking that train ride across the main parking lot to go between the gondola area and the Kancamagus (formerly quad, now 8-passenger) lift area can be avoided with a little planning on descent. Trails connect both areas.

On the downside, Loon did away with the senior break on midweek passes, nearly doubling the cost.

[mcdude]

The Barracks (sp?) and later the site of Gunstock Inn?
https://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopost/data/531/thebaraks.jpg


SEE SOME PICS OF THE OLD LIFTS HERE
(https://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopost/search.php?searchid=13688)

[John Mercier]

Snow making depends on cold. The ski season is shrinking at both ends. UNH has done research on the impact of climate change on the ski industry, and it doesn't look good.We have cold. We don't always have precipitation when it is cold... and that means less natural snow.

If I am reading it right, Gunstock's November 1st report is a base of 10-16"... I am only in Belmont, and can state for certain that our base is 0".

[fatlazyless]

Bring back the rope tow, tee bar, and Poma platter pull lifts.

All these new chair lifts that slow down to let you on and off are so incredibly boring and NO CHALLENGE to ride!

While hanging on to a rope tow going up the steeps can be too strenuous for some, it made riding the tee bar seem like easy-peasy!

Helloooo Gunstock ...... tear down those chairlifts and replace them with a vintage rope tow, tee bar and platter pull ....... just like 1965. Riding these old lifts up the hill was just as much fun and challenge as skiing down the slopes.

[Winni P]

Gunstock Ski Areas is a vital part of Belknap County. It is a major employer and contributes to the local economy far beyond it's borders. It is vitally important that we do not open ourselves up to the possibility of the area being taken out of the hands of the people of Belknap County and sold to corporate entities who do not have our best interests in mind. We are asking all residents & taxpayers of Belknap County to please join us in our fight to save Gunstock Ski Area.


https://sign.moveon.org/petitions/belknap-county-residents-for-gunstock

[WinnisquamZ]

Would those same jobs and community benefits you write of be still there if it was run by a private company? Just think of the taxes they would pay that are voided today


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[FlyingScot]

Gunstock Ski Areas is a vital part of Belknap County. It is a major employer and contributes to the local economy far beyond it's borders. It is vitally important that we do not open ourselves up to the possibility of the area being taken out of the hands of the people of Belknap County and sold to corporate entities who do not have our best interests in mind. We are asking all residents & taxpayers of Belknap County to please join us in our fight to save Gunstock Ski Area.


https://sign.moveon.org/petitions/belknap-county-residents-for-gunstock

This seems interesting and important, but you have not given us enough info to understand the situation. In your post above, you assert Gunstock may be sold--very important and debate-worthy, but the petition does not mention that. The petition asserts certain people are abusing their authority--also important, but you've offered no specifics. Please fill us in

[Winni P]

Not sure why these are not coming up as links but here are a few articles from the LDS explaining the situation.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/future-of-gunstock-at-stake-in-dispute-between-commission-delegation/article_19eab302-4266-11ec-9dec-17c66d39e654.html?fbclid=IwAR0FV1ktAuuVvb1Zeh4TqN6 jY588dSNu-KPrhkJK4QMfHQEv36Gnw_3_ZNk

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/courts_cops/fearing-ouster-three-gunstock-commissions-ask-court-to-step-in/article_44734a20-4267-11ec-9d0b-07aa8d654e8f.html

[FlyingScot]

Whoa! I agree that Silber, Sylvia, and Ness are behaving terribly. Silber's definition of "cause" and Sylvia's definition of criminal are comical. Even funnier is the delegation's statement that Ness did nothing improper because his software was not purchased. Throw these bums out!

[John Mercier]

Would those same jobs and community benefits you write of be still there if it was run by a private company? Just think of the taxes they would pay that are voided today


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)They would not be paying taxes. The land because of deeding is either Belknap Counties or returned to Federal. So no property tax.
The businesses that rent space on the land would pay taxes to the State as current business on the property does.
The new land renter would pay to the County a rent... and that would need to be at least as large as the current payment to the County.

[rocket21]

Once they change Gunstock to a 'mega' resort, it will be a disaster. I may have to change to Tenney or Ragged Mountain. Both are great skiing!

Sorry to say, but Tenney won't be a lift-served option this winter: Ski Areas on the Bubble - NewEnglandSkiIndustry.com (https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=927)

[Fargo]

Did anyone attend the Saturday presentation about Gunstock expansion? Curious to hear any responses.

[BroadHopper]

https://www.gunstock.com/community/master-plan/

As you can see, it will require purchasing private property and getting permission from the Belknap Conservatory Trust to make it happen.

I did not attend as I was at a meeting in Concord at the same time. I was told that many who attended appear to be in favor. There will be a Youtube video of the presentation in the near future. It will be interesting if the video will present the Q&A section after the talk.

Interesting is that the 'back side' that spills into the Weeks property was at one time the longest rope tow in history 'The Gunstock Hoist'. I faintly remember walking up and skiing down one of the trails back in the late 50's early 60's. It is pretty much now overgrown.
http://www.nelsap.org/nh/hoist.html

I can envision the expansion to the former Alpine Ridge ski area fairly easy. Gunstock purchased the land from Penny Pitou. Because of the terrain, I'm not quite so sure the value added. I can go on and on but I will leave it here.

[rocket21]

Here's a story on the meeting/proposal and a few additional maps:

Gunstock Presents $45.5 Million Expansion Proposal (https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=931)

The auto road and cabins (overlapping the present-day Overlook and Belknap Range hiking trails) and mid-mountain hotel may raise some concerns.

[fatlazyless]

So, why would anyone want to spend 45.5 million dollars, Belknap County money, to expand Gunstock ... www.gunstock.com .... when it's raining hard, today, Monday December 6 with more rain and warm temps predicted for opening day, next weekend, Dec 11-12?

For about seventy five dollars you can get an excellent pair of walking boots at the Skechers store in Tilton, and another $20 for "Yaktrax Pro" winter ice /snow traction walker elongated springs design at Ebay and you are good to go hit the Gunstock winter hiking trails.

$75 & $20 for winter walking vs 45.5-million for ski area expansion? That's a big difference? ..... :rolleye2:

Shopping the local thrift store or Walmart, winter walking boots/shoes can be, maybe, a great value! ..... :eek2:

Downhill skiing is a conspiracy to get you to spend a lot of money, when you actually would get much more recreational benefit by walking up and down a NH mountain hiking trail in the winter. ..... :banana: ...... and maybe bring along a pair of ski poles from the thrift store for steep walking.

[upthesaukee]

From today's Union Leader newspaper, 12-6-2021:

https://www.unionleader.com/news/business/proposed-gunstock-master-plan-gets-warm-response/article_45e65a10-6bc8-5e56-94a0-767497f23466.html

Dave

And in case the link doesn't work:

GILFORD — A plan that would significantly expand facilities at the Gunstock Mountain Resort got a warm response from a near capacity audience in the Base Lodge on Saturday that included Penny Pitou, the first American skier to win a medal in an Olympic downhill event.

The turnout came on the heels of an equally well-attended Nov. 16 meeting of the Belknap County Delegation, at which the delegation was ostensibly poised to remove three of the five current members of the Gunstock Area Commission: Chair Brian Gallagher, Gary Kiedaisch and Rusty McLear.

Earlier this year, the commissioners asked the delegation to unseat fellow Commissioner Peter Ness over allegations that Ness had an apparent conflict of interest in trying to sell Gunstock a software system his company had developed and because he was verbally abusive to employees.

In a motion filed in Belknap County Superior Court for an emergency injunction to prevent their removal at the Nov. 16 meeting, Gallagher, Kiedaisch and McLear said the delegation’s effort to replace them was retaliation for their wanting to remove Ness.

Judge James O’Neill III denied the motion, but scheduled a hearing on the matter for Dec. 23.

Opened in 1937 as the Belknap Mountains Recreation Area, Gunstock is located on land owned by Belknap County and its operation is overseen by the Gunstock Area Commission, whose members are appointed — and can be removed — by the delegation.

Made up of Belknap County’s 18 New Hampshire House of Representatives, the delegation is seemingly divided on whether to privatize Gunstock.

Under the proposed master plan, Gunstock, among other improvements, would see an increase in skiable terrain; get a new lift and a toll road to the summit; and possibly have an on-slope restaurant and hotel.

Tom Day, who is Gunstock’s president and general manager, said the vision being presented Saturday represented “a long-term project and a long-term investment” for the mountain.

“We’re not going to go and do something we can’t pay for,” he stressed.

Several speakers said the expansion proposed by the master plan would ease overcrowding while getting more people to the summit, which would be great for visitors and also for Gunstock’s bottom line.

McLear, who developed the Inns at Mill Falls and Church Landing in Meredith, which he sold earlier this year, said the Gunstock Area Commission has ideas regarding a hotel at Gunstock.

Gunstock is already “a great ski area,” McLear said, and the challenge is to “build the right kind of hotel” that would enhance it further.

Asked if the hotel would generate money for Belknap County, Kiedaisch replied that “there would be a couple bites of the apple” including lease income that would go to the county and a percentage of the hotel’s revenue that would go to Gunstock itself.

[thinkxingu]

Ummm...I've hiked Gunstock a few times and, like, it's not that big. Where will the "toll road" go, and how big a deal would a hotel at, what, 1,500 feet be? We're not talking about a Summit House or anything like that, right? What am I missing here?!

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[codeman671]

Ummm...I've hiked Gunstock a few times and, like, it's not that big. Where will the "toll road" go, and how big a deal would a hotel at, what, 1,500 feet be? We're not talking about a Summit House or anything like that, right? What am I missing here?!

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Gunstock is a big part of the area and I welcome it. Gunstock was the first placed I skied as a teenager.

I am sure a hotel would be situated to have great views of the lake and help to make it more of a destination than a day trippers mountain.

[fatlazyless]

Despite being the only county owned ski area out of 3143 different counties in the 50-states, Gunstock has a lift ticket price of $96/day. Prime time NH ski ticket prices: Bretton Woods-$119, Loon-$115, Mount Sunapee-$114, Wildcat & Attitash- maybe $110(?), Waterville Valley-$110, Cannon-$99, Gunstock-$96 ...... Abenaki in Wolfeboro-season pass $50-resident/$125-non resident, no day tickets this season

Do you get what you pay for, and is it worth their high lift ticket price? ....... www.gunstock.com/explore/webcams/ ..... www.waterville.com/cams/ ...... www.loonmtn.com webcam, find it-bottom-ski & ride..... https://www.cannonmt.com/mountain/webcam-daily-photo ..... www.brettonwoods.com/Activities/photos_and_cams/live_cams ..... www.mountsunapee.com/the-mountain/mountain-conditions/mountain-cams.aspx ...... www.attitash.com/the-mountain/mountain-conditions/mountain-cams.aspx ..... www.skiwildcat.com/the-mountain/mountain-conditions/mountain-cams.aspx ....
www.whaleback.com ... www.wolfeboronh.us/abenaki-ski-area/pages/abenaki-ski-area-videos ........

Is really something that the small, local Abenaki in Wolfeboro with an old 1950's style rope tow has the most happening video page by like a hundred times more happening than all the big-money areas, put together ...... ski the best at Abenaki!

Last week I purchased an everything-everyday season pass for Gunstock and it only cost me $49 for the whole winter season. I know a super steal-of-a-deal when I see one, even though it has become somewhat normal now for NH ski areas to be at 33% open slope operation or LESS for the last week of the year, Christmas week ..... if they get LUCKY with a cold December blast of wintry weather! Do they reduce their Christmas week lift ticket prices, down by 66% ....... from $96 down to $32...... no, they do not.

Something tells me this $49-everything Gunstock pass for age 70-79 will NO longer exist next year? ... :eek:

The weather has become too WARM for making good snow in much of December! .... :eek2:

Gunstock already has winter camping for skiers skiing the mountain...... www.gunstock.com/camping/winter-camping/ ..... so, what the heck they need a hotel for? Cannon Mtn, owned by the State of NH, has winter camping for skiers skiing the mountain, too..... www.cannonmt.com/amenities/winter-camping-rvs ...... for $25/night with room for seven rv's, and Cannon is a real 4081'-high mountain as opposed to just a big hill like 2244' high Gunstock ....... and you never hear that Cannon wants to build its own hotel .... do you? ...... no, you don't!

[FlyingScot]

Gunstock is a big part of the area and I welcome it. Gunstock was the first placed I skied as a teenager.

I am sure a hotel would be situated to have great views of the lake and help to make it more of a destination than a day trippers mountain.

Are there any destination resorts with only 1300' of drop? Sunapee is not much bigger, but it's closer to Mass. For Gunstock to be a destination, it has to lure folks from Loon/Waterville, only an hour to the north, and/or get them to drive an extra hour past Sunapee.

Poll for people who live an hour or more from Gunstock--can you see choosing Gunstock for a weekend instead of your current fave?

[thinkxingu]

Gunstock is a big part of the area and I welcome it. Gunstock was the first placed I skied as a teenager.

I am sure a hotel would be situated to have great views of the lake and help to make it more of a destination than a day trippers mountain.I'm not against developing it, but I think it's important to be a bit realistic about what Gunstock is. I mean, even the Gunstock map rounds from 2,24X' to 2,300'.

Also, isn't "vertical drop" and "elevation gain" the same thing because Gunstock claims 1,340' vertical drop, but all the lit shows an elevation gain of 1,150'. I think Gunstock uses the lowest point of the parking lot/basin for that hooey.

Like I said, I'm cool with doing stuff, but let's be realistic about what Gunstock is.

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[upthesaukee]

Just remember that Gunstock is not just skiing, it is a year round resort.

Zip line to the bottom chairlift to the top.

Just a thought

Dave

[thinkxingu]

Just remember that Gunstock is not just skiing, it is a year round resort.

Zip line to the bottom chairlift to the top.

Just a thought

DaveUnderstood, but do we think people will book hotel space to go ziplining? I can see a slope-side hotel, but a zipline-side hotel?

What do I know, though? The people involved are much smarter than I am with this stuff, so let's see how it goes!

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[upthesaukee]

Understood, but do we think people will book hotel space to go ziplining? I can see a slope-side hotel, but a zipline-side hotel?

What do I know, though? The people involved are much smarter than I am with this stuff, so let's see how it goes!

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I don't know how many rooms the "hotel" will have. But there are many other activities at Gunstock than ziplining. I'm sure that it will all play out for the best way to provide value and make it profitable. Unfortunately, I likely will be dead and buried before this all comes to fruition. You, on the other hand, l hope will live long enough to enjoy it all. :cool:

Dave

[Descant]

I was skiing at Crotched Mountain shortly after it reopened. The happy parking lot attendant asked where people were from. Then ha said "Thanks for driving past X and Y to come here today." A new lodge, drssing areas, renta shop, etc and everybody happy even before they got close to the lifts. Skiers, like golfers, want to try out different terrain, views, and appreciate up to date facilities, rides from remote parking, good marketing, etc. Year round activity is also a plus. Small areas have not survived with out merging (Mittersill, Mt Rowe). Take a look on the web for "Lost NH Ski areas. Scores are closed. The commissioners who are looking at this are not inexperienced in the industry; such projects are multi-year. Look at the time line for The Balsams. Maybe somebody will make a second attempt at Kimball's Castle?

[rocket21]

Small areas have not survived with out merging (Mittersill, Mt Rowe). Take a look on the web for "Lost NH Ski areas. Scores are closed.

Most of the lost ski areas in New Hampshire were small rope tow operations, which became obsolete with most skiers expecting snowmaking, grooming, and chairlifts. A few non-profit surface areas exist, thanks in part to donors, public funding, and volunteers, such as Storr's Hill (Lebanon), Kancamagus (Lincoln), Veterans Memorial (Franklin), Abenaki (Wolfeboro), Red Hill (Moultonborough), Prospect (Lancaster), Eustis (Littleton), and Arrowhead (Claremont).

Gunstock is unique, in that it is the only remaining ski area in Belknap County, and it can use the county's finances to keep it afloat in tough times.

Growth is not always a winning proposition in the ski industry, particularly if the ski area takes on significant debt and prices itself out of its core market.
In fact, the "build and they will come" mantra has led to many bankruptcies and closures in the ski industry. Over the years, examples of expansion-and-bankruptcy in the region include Tenney, Crotched, Temple, Ragged, and King Ridge. Other areas in the state have remained popular and viable without dramatically expanding their footprint, such as McIntyre, Pats Peak, and King Pine.

[Descant]

Quote "Over the years, examples of expansion-and-bankruptcy in the region include Tenney, Crotched, Temple, Ragged, and King Ridge. Other areas in the state have remained popular and viable without dramatically expanding their footprint, such as McIntyre, Pats Peak, and King Pine."

Right, and some have reopened. (McIntyre, as a municipal park is different) In any event, many businesses operate under capitalized and somebody else takes over with a lower entry fee or better capitalization and becomes successful.
It's a complex issue, but leasing Sunapee (low entry fee) and applying the income to Cannon appears to have been a success for both areas. New, aggressive management at both was a plus.

[BroadHopper]

Saddleback in Maine is at the leading edge of modern development. Many if not all ski resorts are looking to see how this works out. So far it is a winning combination of sustainability and social responsibility.

Arctaris Impact Investors is one I would trust if the County Delegates decides to sell the property, at the very least manage future development. The investors are a lot more socially responsible than the current management.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/saddleback-mountain-partners-arctaris-nexamp-162200148.html

[rocket21]

(McIntyre, as a municipal park is different)

McIntyre is leased by a private operator.

Arctaris Impact Investors is one I would trust if the County Delegates decides to sell the property, at the very least manage future development. The investors are a lot more socially responsible than the current management.
Arctaris is reportedly a short-term owner with the focus on reopening/redeveloping Saddleback, then selling it.

[John Mercier]

Saddleback in Maine is at the leading edge of modern development. Many if not all ski resorts are looking to see how this works out. So far it is a winning combination of sustainability and social responsibility.

Arctaris Impact Investors is one I would trust if the County Delegates decides to sell the property, at the very least manage future development. The investors are a lot more socially responsible than the current management.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/saddleback-mountain-partners-arctaris-nexamp-162200148.htmlThe property cannot be sold; it would need to be deeded back to federal land. The operations on it could be leased to a private group.

[LongBay]

Now that the new Gunstock Commission got their way and managed to get the entire Gunstock management team to resign, we can all look forward to the money we paid for our season passes to go towards paying for the Delegations legal fees that went 150% over budget.

[LongBay]

Now that the new Gunstock Commission got their way and managed to get the entire Gunstock management team to resign, we can all look forward to the money we paid for our season passes to go towards paying for the Delegations legal fees that went 150% over budget.

[BroadHopper]

With an experienced management team out of the way, I expect the Gunstock crew to be following suit. The Free staters will now have the opportunity to privatize the mountain. They can't sell the land as the land was deeded by the feds and that will be beyond the free staters unless they succeed in breaking NH away from the US.

The next step is the privatization of the County Home, Prison, and Sheriff dept.

[FlyingScot]

Ugh, but obviously not a surprise. When does the governor or some other group of responsible adults step in?

For those interested in stopping the commission before they do permanent damage--I was sent this website via email. I do not know these folks, but the whole thing is an important reminder that rational Republicans and rational Democrats have much more in common with each other than the extremists in either party

https://www.citizensforbelknap.org/

[SailinAway]

Thank you for posting an update on the Gunstock debacle. I've just contacted Citizens for Belknap to volunteer my services. My motive: to stop the Free State Project. They remind me of Putin in Ukraine---taking over an autonomous region because they can, without regard for the values of local residents. Review what happened recently in Croydon to understand that the Free State Project concerns us all.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/10/us/croydon-free-state-politics.html

[John Mercier]

Sorry, I am an extremist on this issue.

I think we should privatize as much of the operation on that mountain that we can.

I don't think any private group has ever offered to take over the alpine ski operation, or any of the trails.

But retail, food, and accommodations should be as private as possible... supported by private investment, and paying a healthy rental fee to the mountain for the opportunity.

I just don't think the delegation is really on board with that...

[FlyingScot]

Sorry, I am an extremist on this issue.

I think we should privatize as much of the operation on that mountain that we can.

I don't think any private group has ever offered to take over the alpine ski operation, or any of the trails.

But retail, food, and accommodations should be as private as possible... supported by private investment, and paying a healthy rental fee to the mountain for the opportunity.

I just don't think the delegation is really on board with that...

Ha! You are correct--I think of you as a rational Republican with whom I have much in common...:)

I agree there's a fair debate about public vs private, and that there may be certain deal structures that are better for both the town and the skiers. But don't you think Sylvia and Co are operating in bad faith? (the software, the legal fees, their treatment of highly qualified board members, the utter disregard for a competent management team) Do they really seem like the guys who are going to do what's best in general?

We need skilled professionals figuring this out, not ideologues

[TheVoiceOfReason]

He drafted an open letter to the Citizens of Belknap County, including calling for Sylvia, Silber, and Hough to be "removed from their positions and replaced with good people". Full letter attached. Good for the Governor to take this public stand to defend a jewel of Belknap County. True republicans like Sununu (an excellent Governor) should be just as irate at those responsible for this mess as independents and democrats. I know I am.

https://www.governor.nh.gov/sites/g/files/ehbemt336/files/documents/20220721-belknap-gunstock.pdf

[fatlazyless]

Statement of Norman Silber in response to resignation of Gunstock Mountain Resort management team

July 21, 3:30-pm, 2022

www.wmur.com/article/statement-of-norm-silber-in-response-to-resignation-of-gunstock-mountain-resort-management-staff/40681060

This is so over my head that I have nothing intelligent to say, as usual, and leave that to anyone who knows what they are talking about? ..... :eek:

How's about a downhill ski race between Rep Norman Silber and Gunstock guy, Tommy Day, and the winner becomes King of the Mountain! ... :patriot:

[John Mercier]

Ha! You are correct--I think of you as a rational Republican with whom I have much in common...:)

I agree there's a fair debate about public vs private, and that there may be certain deal structures that are better for both the town and the skiers. But don't you think Sylvia and Co are operating in bad faith? (the software, the legal fees, their treatment of highly qualified board members, the utter disregard for a competent management team) Do they really seem like the guys who are going to do what's best in general?

We need skilled professionals figuring this out, not ideologues
I have no concern for the town... they can bill for services rendered.
The delegation, each as an individual, is supposed to look out for the interests of the population within their districts.

Though I have voted for Mike every time he has run... I am not feeling that he has my best interests at heart with his latest legislative endeavors. He hasn't taken the time or effort to lay out how more dollars going into a property that I am a stakeholder is bad for me. It is possible a defining reason exists... but he should earn my vote again by explaining that reasoning.

[fatlazyless]

There's a lot to read here ..... www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2022-07-21/gunstock-mountain-resort-management-team-resigns-commission .... from NHPR, New Hampshire's largest news organization.

All I will say is that downhill skiing is for people who are too lazy to go cross country skiing, or go winter hiking, and will pay $104 for a seven hour, 9am-4pm chair lift ride to get up the mountain. For $104 you can own an excellent pair of winter walking boots (Plymouth Ski & Sport) and a good warm pair of winter mittens (Rand's Hardware-Plymouth) and go walk a trail in the nearby https://belknaprangetrails.org/belknap-range-trail-map/ or up in the White Mountain National Forest that has good cross country skiing and hiking for $30/year with your car windshield parking sticker.

Besides all that, an enclosed chairlift is a good place to catch a virus from another downhill skier as you sit there, protected from the wind, inside your enclosed bubble chairlift.

[BroadHopper]

Google and Sunapee and Wachusets' privatizing did not go well through the years. Some years they ask for forgiveness and some years they made out very well and the state did not profit from it. Plus the demands the fat corporation asks for the landowners are a bit much so I don't want to get into this here. In other states and federal property when a company goes belly up the municipalities are usually held responsible for cleaning up the abandoned property.

So, Silber, Sylvia's grandiose idea may not have a silver lining. They probably don't give a s$$t as they pass it on to the next generation.

I heard that their puppet Peter Ness came barrelling in and tries to bark orders in the resort. The rank and file are getting furious. Peter is just a mediocre lawyer on the wagon thinking he knows everything because he has a PSIA certificate.

[FlyingScot]

Google and Sunapee and Wachusets' privatizing did not go well through the years. Some years they ask for forgiveness and some years they made out very well and the state did not profit from it. Plus the demands the fat corporation asks for the landowners are a bit much so I don't want to get into this here. In other states and federal property when a company goes belly up the municipalities are usually held responsible for cleaning up the abandoned property.

So, Silber, Sylvia's grandiose idea may not have a silver lining. They probably don't give a s$$t as they pass it on to the next generation.

I heard that their puppet Peter Ness came barrelling in and tries to bark orders in the resort. The rank and file are getting furious. Peter is just a mediocre lawyer on the wagon thinking he knows everything because he has a PSIA certificate.

Most investment professionals would say that there is ALWAYS a good price at which to sell an investment--in other words, there is definitely some number and set of conditions that a for-profit operator could offer where the citizens come out ahead.

But that does not mean that we will get that number, and there are a couple of reasons why it's unlikely. First, the for-profit operator needs to build in profit to get a return on their investment. That might be 20% of the amount invested off the top every year. So the first 20% of financial improvement goes to the money guys, not the people. Of course, it's REALLY tough to improve a good operation by more than 20%, so....Second, even if we accept the above, we need to remember that the for-profit finance guys are MUCH more sophisticated than the government guys on our side of the bargaining table. So even if we think we have a good deal, we are likely missing a few finer points, as BroadHopper notes was the case at other areas.

So I'd keep my money on Mr Day...

[Woodsy]

This is absurd! When the entire management team quits, that is a crystal clear NO CONFIDENCE vote in the Commissioners!

Gunstock was well run and turned a profit and thus was used as a cash cow for Belknap County. So lets screw that formula up!

Unfortunately, the commissioners are not elected, but appointed. One of our elected Representatives actually mentioned Soros? Seriously? So the only way to correct this boondoggle is to vote out our idiotic State Representatives that voted these morons in.

Woodsy

[Major]

I realize the press and public opinion has been vilifying the county Delegation and in particular Reps Sylvia and Silber. I do not know Michael Sylvia but I know Norm Silber. Firstly, he is a GREAT attorney. Very sharp and effective. Secondly, he is a man of integrity. Yes, he is conservative and not shy about it. People have a hard time separating the person from his political positions. Bottom line is that he is a good man who wants what is best for his constituents. (BTW, he does NOT want to privatize Gunstock. My suspicion is that he didn't sign the pledge because he won't be bullied into it.)

Anyway, all of this could have been avoided if the Commissioners and the full time staff were more cooperative and transparent when the new Delegation took over. At that time, the Delegation's request for a comprehensive audit was met with resistance. This was quickly followed by the expansion plans and the outrageous bonuses the full time staff awarded themselves. Like it or not, when it comes to Gunstock, the Commissioners and the full time staff are public servants and answer to the county Delegation. It is the Delegation's right to audit the Gunstock operation and the Commissioners and full time staff did not help themselves by their resistance. They should have realized they are public servants and the key to any successful government endeavor is openness and transparency. By refusing to cooperate they projected the appearance that they had something to hide.

Like I said, had the Commissioners and the full time staff fully cooperated at the beginning, most of this could have been avoided. However, the way it stands now, it appears their lack of cooperation may have been necessary. We will see when the audit results are made public. In the meantime, I caution against making any judgments until all the facts are publicly revealed.

[John Mercier]

So Silber is going to vote to release the notes and email that deals with the overspending of dollars that were not legally appropriated? Because I was under the understanding that He and Sylvia were keeping this secret.

Also... why would you think it in the best interests of the constituents not to seek private investment and more revenue into the operation?

[Major]

So Silber is going to vote to release the notes and email that deals with the overspending of dollars that were not legally appropriated? Because I was under the understanding that He and Sylvia were keeping this secret.

I don't know. We only discussed the underlying reasons for the present dispute. Both sides are accusing the other side of overspending on attorneys, so I am not sure if they are being difficult for the sake of being difficult. Trust me, that happens in disputes and especially in litigation.

Also... why would you think it in the best interests of the constituents not to seek private investment and more revenue into the operation?

What I meant about the privatizing Gunstock issue was that Norm was not in favor of selling Gunstock to a third-party, which had been an accusation against him. I should have said he is not in favor of selling Gunstock. I am not sure what he thinks about privatizing services. My guess is that if it makes business sense and results in increased revenue that he would be for it. You would have to ask him.

[John Mercier]

So he really isn't open on the emails... and suggesting that both sides are acting like ''babies'' doesn't really adhere to the level of elected officials.


Gunstock being sold was never really being discussed... as Gunstock can not be sold due to the means that it was gifted to the county.
Privatization of services is the only privatization that is on the table.

[LongBay]

I don't know. We only discussed the underlying reasons for the present dispute. Both sides are accusing the other side of overspending on attorneys, so I am not sure if they are being difficult for the sake of being difficult. Trust me, that happens in disputes and especially in litigation.

What I meant about the privatizing Gunstock issue was that Norm was not in favor of selling Gunstock to a third-party, which had been an accusation against him. I should have said he is not in favor of selling Gunstock. I am not sure what he thinks about privatizing services. My guess is that if it makes business sense and results in increased revenue that he would be for it. You would have to ask him.

When I asked him he said he wanted it privatized.

[LongBay]

An article that pretty much describes how we got here and how it probably won’t get any better.

https://unofficialnetworks.com/2022/07/22/drama-gunstock-management-resigned/

[samosetguy]

You won't see me at Gunstock for a long time. Who wants to get on a chair lift at a resort filled with dysfunctional leadership and disgruntled employees? My level of confidence that critical maintenance is happening is pretty low. The focus needs to be on whatever moronic politicians appointed these Commissioners. Gotta love when the government tries to run anything.

[rocket21]

Google and Sunapee and Wachusets' privatizing did not go well through the years. Some years they ask for forgiveness and some years they made out very well and the state did not profit from it.

That is incorrect.

Wachusett and Sunapee were constantly having issues prior to moving to private operators (Sunapee in particular), resulting in taxpayer bail outs.

Wachusett has been run by the Crowley family's company for decades and is considered one of the most successful ski areas in the country.

Mt. Sunapee was run by the Mueller family's company for two decades and quickly grew into one of the most successful ski areas in the state. Lease payments were made to the state every year.

It is hard to defend some of Vail's decisions in recent years (I personally refused to patronize any of their areas last season due to their draconian vaccine mandates). Nevertheless, they have continued to make lease payments to the state every year. The Sunapee lease payments subsidize Cannon. Without the annual lease payments or taxpayer bailouts, Cannon would likely default on its debt.

[FlyingScot]

That is incorrect.

Wachusett and Sunapee were constantly having issues prior to moving to private operators (Sunapee in particular), resulting in taxpayer bail outs.

Wachusett has been run by the Crowley family's company for decades and is considered one of the most successful ski areas in the country.

Mt. Sunapee was run by the Mueller family's company for two decades and quickly grew into one of the most successful ski areas in the state. Lease payments were made to the state every year.

It is hard to defend some of Vail's decisions in recent years (I personally refused to patronize any of their areas last season due to their draconian vaccine mandates). Nevertheless, they have continued to make lease payments to the state every year. The Sunapee lease payments subsidize Cannon. Without the annual lease payments or taxpayer bailouts, Cannon would likely default on its debt.

It's really hard--basically impossible--for private citizens to know if they are getting a good deal with any of these arrangements. I ski Wachusett regularly, and agree it's a great hill from a customer perspective. I don't doubt that Sunapee subsidizes Cannon.

But the thing that we do not know is how much quality/revenue is due to the private company compared to the amount of profit (or loss) they are taking from citizens/skiers--it's a complex question. That's why we need professionals/technocrats leading these issues, not extremists who can't even manage their legal bills or keep a well respected management team on the job

[John Mercier]

It's really hard--basically impossible--for private citizens to know if they are getting a good deal with any of these arrangements. I ski Wachusett regularly, and agree it's a great hill from a customer perspective. I don't doubt that Sunapee subsidizes Cannon.

But the thing that we do not know is how much quality/revenue is due to the private company compared to the amount of profit (or loss) they are taking from citizens/skiers--it's a complex question. That's why we need professionals/technocrats leading these issues, not extremists who can't even manage their legal bills or keep a well respected management team on the job
A good deal for the consumer should not be the scope of the delegation.
The delegation should be working for the taxpayers that vote them in... that is whom they represent.
That means they only need to determine if the leasing deal is the best they can get for each part...

The lease from Sunapee did go to Cannon. It was part of the deal being that the park system is self-funded.

[rocket21]

It's really hard--basically impossible--for private citizens to know if they are getting a good deal with any of these arrangements. I ski Wachusett regularly, and agree it's a great hill from a customer perspective. I don't doubt that Sunapee subsidizes Cannon.

But the thing that we do not know is how much quality/revenue is due to the private company compared to the amount of profit (or loss) they are taking from citizens/skiers--it's a complex question. That's why we need professionals/technocrats leading these issues, not extremists who can't even manage their legal bills or keep a well respected management team on the job

It's not quite that complex. In the case of Mt. Sunapee, it's structured as a fixed amount, plus a percentage of revenue. The state also has the right to look at the operator's books. The lease was developed by the state and elected officials (some who could probably still assist).

Not only did the state get a guaranteed revenue stream, but it no longer has the risk associated with bad winters and capital investments. Perhaps more importantly, the ski area was no longer tax exempt (meaning the towns, county, and state collect property taxes on the millions of dollars of lifts, buildings, snowmaking equipment, etc. installed by the operator).

The state lease arrangement has more oversight than government management. Mt. Sunapee's operator would never get away with putting a mid-mountain hotel on undeveloped public property in their master plan.

[John Mercier]

Do you have a link? As the State Park is still tax exempt. The buildings and improvements are like any lease/rental... when it is over the landowner assumes ownership of all improvements. There may be local or county property tax payments on the private property around the area that is owned and developed by the corporation... and the new lease suggests more land will be added to the State Park.

The State pays five years of transition property taxes for newly acquired park property... but after that nothing.

So I think the State would love a huge capital development of a ''mid-mountain'' hotel if it increased their lease revenue and meant a future capital asset when the lease came to an end.

[FlyingScot]

It's not quite that complex. In the case of Mt. Sunapee, it's structured as a fixed amount, plus a percentage of revenue. The state also has the right to look at the operator's books. The lease was developed by the state and elected officials (some who could probably still assist).

Not only did the state get a guaranteed revenue stream, but it no longer has the risk associated with bad winters and capital investments. Perhaps more importantly, the ski area was no longer tax exempt (meaning the towns, county, and state collect property taxes on the millions of dollars of lifts, buildings, snowmaking equipment, etc. installed by the operator).

The state lease arrangement has more oversight than government management. Mt. Sunapee's operator would never get away with putting a mid-mountain hotel on undeveloped public property in their master plan.

I agree with your qualitative description. But (and this was the point of my previous post), you have not included any numbers. Without the numbers, and a bunch of additional analysis, it's impossible to know if the deal is better or worse. I'm pretty sure the two of us would agree on that.

If we were leaving the analysis to experienced, rational professionals--former ski area and hospitality CEOs, bankers, etc--I'd be comfortable that they would evaluate this stuff appropriately, starting as you have above.

But the people on the commission today have shown themselves to be irrational and dogmatic. They appear to be eager to privatize for the sake of privatization--this is a recipe for giving money away to to the for-profit operators.

[rocket21]

I agree with your qualitative description. But (and this was the point of my previous post), you have not included any numbers. Without the numbers, and a bunch of additional analysis, it's impossible to know if the deal is better or worse. I'm pretty sure the two of us would agree on that.


$150K/year at the start of the lease (1998), adjusted thereafter for inflation, plus 3% of revenue. The original RFP and lease are on various state web sites.

[rocket21]

Do you have a link? As the State Park is still tax exempt. The buildings and improvements are like any lease/rental... when it is over the landowner assumes ownership of all improvements. There may be local or county property tax payments on the private property around the area that is owned and developed by the corporation... and the new lease suggests more land will be added to the State Park.

The State pays five years of transition property taxes for newly acquired park property... but after that nothing.


From the 2015 Master Development Plan:
"Mount Sunapee has paid the Town of Newbury approximately $2,225,000 in local property taxes, and has paid the Town of Goshen approximately $245,000 in local property taxes in the 16 years of the lease. Prior to the 1998 lease agreement, the Towns of Newbury and Goshen received no local property tax payments from the ski area"
"Mount Sunapee has paid the State of New Hampshire approximately $1,855,000 in Rooms and Meals taxes since 1998, and stimulated substantial additional Rooms & Meals tax revenues from the Sunapee region for the benefit of the State’s General Fund. Mount Sunapee has paid the State of New Hampshire approximately $1,257,000 in Business Profits Taxes"

[FlyingScot]

Hi rocket,

These are interesting, but they are only half of the equation. You need to compare these numbers to the profit the government would have earned if it was operating Sunapee itself. And of course, there are a huge number of details that may make either set of figures misleading...

Not asking you to to that here, as the real question is Gunstock and how a for-profit operator would compare to the current team/structure. Cheers

[rocket21]

These are interesting, but they are only half of the equation. You need to compare these numbers to the profit the government would have earned if it was operating Sunapee itself. And of course, there are a huge number of details that may make either set of figures misleading...


The state was often losing money on a P&L basis (which is distorted due to state accounting excluding some huge expenses from ski area books, such as depreciation and interest), as it still does at Cannon in bad years. Not only that, but the state struggled to provide the capital needed to modernize Sunapee and Cannon.

In the end, the Muellers invested heavily in Sunapee (new lifts, new lodge, massive snowmaking improvements), and the lease payments helped to provide capital (along with general fund dollars) for Cannon improvements. Cannon is still lagging, with an aging lift fleet and visible accumulated depreciation.

[John Mercier]

The Muellers had 600 acres of private land to develop once they won a decision that allowed them to connect it to the ski area by use of more of the state park.

That isn't something readily available to a leasee of Gunstock.

They would need the right to develop the county land... as per the master plan of the previous GAC.

[ITD]

What a mess. This audit should be completed, if it shows improprieties the bad actors should be prosecuted. If it shows that the mountain is well run, which I suspect will be the case, this commission should be fired. A commissioner wanting employee's phone numbers is a little wacked if you ask me.

[fatlazyless]

Want to avoid the ugly politics of skiing Gunstock..... https://www.wolfeboronh.us/abenaki-ski-area ... :patriot: ...
.... the way home town skiing should be! ...... price $20. .... $8-Wolfeboro residents ..... and it has a wonderful ROPE TOW that challenges you on the ride up.

[Descant]

Is this right? The commissioners and management team were "forced out" and the area is closed? Now, refunds will be due, and revenues will be lost. Fall season passes will drop off or cease completely. The list goes on. If current delegation members (State Reps) are opposed in the September primary, that's your chance to nominate somebody else, and in November you can change the entire slate, or at least get rid of some of them. Unfortunately, the numerous websites that detail state rep voting records focus on state house votes, and tracking down how reps voted in their dual capacity as county delegates is harder to evaluate. I guess somebody would have to comb through the minutes of the County Executive Committee meetings.

[John Mercier]

I think the number of seats for each of the districts means that they will win their primaries.

Mike is being challenged by Travis. I like Travis... native born.
And being younger, I see him more as the future of our area.
I voted for them both in the last election... but they were in different districts.

As an Independent, I have never voted in the primaries.
I think it is up to the party to get its candidates and positions in order.

So I can't honestly tell you which one will be the Republican candidate come November.

[rocket21]

The Muellers had 600 acres of private land to develop once they won a decision that allowed them to connect it to the ski area by use of more of the state park.

That isn't something readily available to a leasee of Gunstock.

They would need the right to develop the county land... as per the master plan of the previous GAC.

They were originally proposing to expand eastward within the state park, but were halted by a well-organized opposition group. The private land they acquired to expand into on the west is the Goshen portion of the property tax figures previously listed.

Presumably if Gunstock ever when to bid for a lease, the topic of expansion would need to be covered (e.g. Alpine Ridge, Eastside).

[rocket21]

Is this right? The commissioners and management team were "forced out" and the area is closed? Now, refunds will be due, and revenues will be lost.

Four of the five commissioners remain (the one who was involved with the hiring of management resigned at the same time as management). Multiple members of management resigned at that meeting, but one of the people listed as "resigning" at the meeting had already departed from Gunstock weeks earlier for a new job.

Prior to the closure, the ziplines were open Thursday-Monday. The Mountain Coaster was already closed for mechanical repairs.

Special events are still proceeding as planned and the campground remains open. Ski season is 4+ months away.

[John Mercier]

I think Descant meant the original commissioners... not the replacements brought in by this delegation.

Four months might seem a long way off... but I am working a lumber yard and already working on our winter plans and buys.
Retail operations generally plan at least a season ahead.

[Descant]

Yes, plan ahead. A lot of ski passes are sold in the summer and early fall because of deep discounts that disappear as snowfall approaches. Gunstock, and others, are no longer just ski areas. Adventure parks, campgrounds, and other year round activities are the norm. Getting people on site regardless of ski conditions is important which is why so many places add townhouses, condo's hotels, etc. This is hospitality industry, no longer ski industry.

[rocket21]

Gunstock, and others, are no longer just ski areas. Adventure parks, campgrounds, and other year round activities are the norm.

I recollect Tom Day telling the commission that summer operations aren't profitable (I don't believe he was including the campground in that statement).

Under prior management, they ran the summer attractions 7 days a week. Gunstock got by without them in 2020, and now they've been curtailed to Thursday-Monday, with some attractions being abandoned completely (Segways, E-Bikes, Water Wars, Summer Tubing, etc.). It's now basically the ziplines/treetop tour/mountain coaster.

That's not to say that Gunstock should be a ghost town in the summer, but the millions of dollars in summer investments haven't necessarily been a profit center.

[John Mercier]

Were those investments from the county or private?
Privatizing items like that would be what I would suspect.

[Winilyme]

My family and I enjoyed an afternoon at Gunstock last fall...some hiking and the zip line. It was quite busy but not overwhelmingly so. A low-stress way to have some fun. We were thinking of doing the zip line again later this summer but with everything I'm reading here, I'm putting the kibosh on that. Why?

Safety.

I felt safe last fall, but I'm not so sure now. You don't lose a lot of key leaders at once and expect the experience to be the same as before. While you'd hope safety would be the last thing to be compromised, I'm not putting myself one hundred feet in the air unless I feel reasonably secure about doing so. As of now, I don't.

[LongBay]

This Tue. July 26th, at 10am the GAC will be meeting to discus whatever…meanwhile 7 senior managers, 3 department managers and some others have resigned. The mountain remains closed and not one public statement has been put out what the GAC plan is and when Gunstock will reopen. When will they get it, no one wants to work for the current GAC “leadership”. Time for Ness and Strang to go to back writing wills and handing out aspirins and let qualified people run a profitable business.

[Descant]

This Tue. July 26th, at 10am the GAC will be meeting to discus whatever…meanwhile 7 senior managers, 3 department managers and some others have resigned. The mountain remains closed and not one public statement has been put out what the GAC plan is and when Gunstock will reopen. When will they get it, no one wants to work for the current GAC “leadership”. Time for Ness and Strang to go to back writing wills and handing out aspirins and let qualified people run a profitable business.

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to a report of GAC action tomorrow. Perhaps if the GAC resigns, the delegation can act quickly and rehire lost management, and appoint new GAC. There were some very competent people there who may still be available.

[John Mercier]

I doubt that is going to happen the current GAC was put in place by the delegation.

[Mr. V]

Sort of "a spider on the wall" as to this issue, but all I can say is "Wow: you asked for it, you got it."

When you vote idiots into office they do idiotic things.

[Descant]

I doubt that is going to happen the current GAC was put in place by the delegation.

Understood. Maybe some will see that change is needed? We may find out in just hours. Or, in the September primary. Are any of these delegates opposed?

[John Mercier]

Opposed yes. But the number of seats in each of their districts suggests that they have a very good chance of reelection.

Personally, I would just like to know what the long term game plan is.
If operations are totally taken by a private company... what is the purpose of the GAC... and would any private company be willing to invest the time and resources under that construct?

[rocket21]

If operations are totally taken by a private company... what is the purpose of the GAC... and would any private company be willing to invest the time and resources under that construct?

My guess is that in that scenario, the Gunstock Advisory Commission would meet once or two a year to review an operator's annual operating plan and expansion proposals. The Sunapee Advisory Commission (https://www.nhstateparks.org/about-us/commissions-committees/mount-sunapee-advisory-commission) performs this task for the state.

[fatlazyless]

Hey y'all ..... just look-ee here .... this latest Gunstock bru-ha-ha done made it into www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunstock_Mountain_Resort ...... where it says ....

"On the night of July 20, 2022, the entirety of the resort's management team resigned due to overreach by thr Gunstock Area Commission after members of the commission tried to take a "larger stake of control" over the daily operations of the resort along with accusations of disrespecting the resort's staff. The following day, the resort closed "until further notice".

Seems that Gunstock would be a nice spot to build a gambling casino run by the NH-Lottery with all profits, after expenses, going to fund local NH public schools. This would be a year 'round activity, gambling, and attached eating and entertainment, in all 12-months and daily weather. And, you can bet it would be a busy happening place-to-go ..... long time home of the Belknap Indian Lost Nation tribe ...... ugh! ...... to that! ...... holy cow-a-bunga! ..... such a stupendous suggestion! .... :patriot:

[Descant]

WMUR reported at 4:00 pm that resignations were requested from Strang and Ness, who then walked out of the meeting. No indication at that time of a response. It appears from the WMUR vignette that management will return if Strang and Ness are gone. We shall see.

[Leoskeys]

That is correct. I was there at Gunstock yesterday. 300 residents and employees on hand. Two of the commissioners and the crowd urged Strang and Ness to resign which would lead Gunstock management to come back. They didn’t sign resignation papers they were handed, and eventually they both walked out prior to the meeting being formally adjourned or listening to public comment. Here’s a recap.
https://www.wmur.com/article/gunstock-commissioners-walk-out-of-meeting/40723461

[thinkxingu]

I just spent the last half hour trying to figure this thing out, and, man, what a mess.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[StevenGilford]

I realize the press and public opinion has been vilifying the county Delegation and in particular Reps Sylvia and Silber. I do not know Michael Sylvia but I know Norm Silber. Firstly, he is a GREAT attorney. Very sharp and effective. Secondly, he is a man of integrity. Yes, he is conservative and not shy about it. People have a hard time separating the person from his political positions. Bottom line is that he is a good man who wants what is best for his constituents. (BTW, he does NOT want to privatize Gunstock. My suspicion is that he didn't sign the pledge because he won't be bullied into it.)

Norm wrote a whole article about how privatizing Gunstock is his dream...

https://granitegrok.com/blog/2021/10/i-have-a-dream

I understand that for everybody there is a person vs. politics aspect, but I don't understand why people blindly defend the politics side because they like them as a person.

And note, when "selling gunstock" is discussed, it is always in the context of the operations as the land cannot be sold. So when he and others say "of course we aren't considering selling Gunstock" they are being extremely disingenuous.

[John Mercier]

Even more disingenuous as we would need to find a private party willing to take the risk of paying the county even more than the current formula.

[Cobaltdeadhead]

Not sure how anyone can take Norm seriously when he says George Soros is funding opposition to he and Sylvia's desires for the place.

That's crazy town right there. No way Soros has even heard of Gunstock nevermind cares about it.

[Major]

I can only relate to you my experiences with Norm. I asked him directly if he wanted to sell Gunstock and he said no. This was after the Granite State Grok article. Perhaps he changed his mind. Perhaps he was thinking of his constituents. I don't know. During the course of our discussions, he never mentioned George Soros, so I'm not sure where that comment came from.

I read the Grok article and didn't disagree with a word he said. The private sector should own and manage Gunstock. Maybe the reason why Gunstock is recently successful is because it is managed like a private entity although ultimately accountable to the tax payers. However, there were a number of years in which Gunstock lost a lot of money. At least back then, as a Belknap county resident, I could get a discount ski pass. Now I get nothing.

[StevenGilford]

Norm's Shadowy Groups and George Soros conspiracy theory:

"And it is worthy to note that the principal political consultant to the shadowy group trying to interfere with proper legal oversight of Gunstock, granted to the Gunstock Area Commission by the General Court in 1959, has ties to organizations believed to be funded in large measure by George Soros."

https://www.wmur.com/article/statement-of-norm-silber-in-response-to-resignation-of-gunstock-mountain-resort-management-staff/40681060

[Major]

Maybe it's true. Who knows? There are many instances that something that is farfetched at the time were proven to be true. Also, there are many instances of something that is false but promoted as being true that were ultimately proven to be false. Do you know for sure that "the principal political consultant to the shadowy group trying to interfere with proper legal oversight of Gunstock . . . has ties to organizations believed to be funded in large measure by George Soros." Who is the consultant and who has funded him/her?

Regardless of this rabbit hole, my original post was that all of this could have been avoided if the Commissioners and the full time staff of Gunstock were more cooperative and transparent at the beginning of the new relationship with the county delegation. Their reluctance to an audit fueled the distrust that we are now witnessing.

[John Mercier]

So Norm is completely open to releasing those legal counsel e*mails so as to avoid and ''distrust'' and focus on ''cooperation and transparency''?

[Major]

Again, nothing to do with the genesis of the initial distrust. The delegation asked for billing documents and was blown off. Happens all the time in conflict (litigation) -- why should I be cooperative if the other side isn't being cooperative. I am assuming the delegation isn't cooperating because the Commissioners and full time staff aren't cooperating.

The tone was set by the initial request. The Commissioners and the full time staff thought they had no accountability to anyone, including the delegation.

[John Mercier]

Because we are judging them on their actions... and not the actions of the others.

My honesty and integrity is a matter of my actions, not the opposite party.
So Silber is showing a lack of honesty and integrity.

And you are confusion elected county commissioners with appointed Gunstock Area Commissioners.

The County Commissioners seeking the information are not the GAC that the delegation has only general oversight of.

[rocket21]

And note, when "selling gunstock" is discussed, it is always in the context of the operations as the land cannot be sold. So when he and others say "of course we aren't considering selling Gunstock" they are being extremely disingenuous.

It's disingenuous to suggest a entering into a lease with a private operator is "selling Gunstock." While the ski operations have always been managed by the county, food & beverage operations were leased to a private operator (most recently Centerplate) for a long time. No one has suggested that Gunstock was partially sold, or bought back, because of that lease.

[John Mercier]

No private entity has been willing to propose, never mind prove financial stability, to enter such a lease. Discussion has always centered on activities not directly tied to the slopes.

So a private hotel and restaurant would be in the scope of the current privatization... but for reasons not transmitted to the public... was considered privatization run amok.

It may have been with further study that the proposal was not financially or legally viable... but it never got to that stage.

So they would need to transmit what the privatization plan is...
Is it all or nothing? Because in that case, they should be working to tell Centerplate that either they lease the entire area or get out... but it seems that they are willing to privatize pieces - so why not these pieces?

I can hypothesize, but not know for sure.

[TiltonBB]

Monday night meeting. Gunstock opens.

Strang resigns. New Commissioner Denise Conroy sworn in.

https://www.wmur.com/article/new-gunstock-area-commission-commissioner-elected-8122/40776657

[ITD]

Now the question of what happens with this oft mentioned audit that will embarrass everyone. I suspect it disappears.

[FlyingScot]

Now the question of what happens with this oft mentioned audit that will embarrass everyone. I suspect it disappears.

We haven not heard any evidence or even credible assertions that an audit will embarrass the management team. Let's all just breathe a sigh of relief that the lunacy appears to be over, at least for now

[StevenGilford]

my original post was that all of this could have been avoided if the Commissioners and the full time staff of Gunstock were more cooperative and transparent at the beginning of the new relationship with the county delegation.

And this all could have been avoided if the Delegation had appointed suitably qualified and experienced Commissioners who could control their temper, speak civilly to the management team, and refrain from creating a toxic work environment.

[Major]

I guess the full time employees are the first ever to work for a demanding boss or a demanding board of directors who demanded accountability and transparency. I didn't realize they were such snowflakes.

[John Mercier]

The delegation works for us... where is the transparency?

[FlyingScot]

And this all could have been avoided if the Delegation had appointed suitably qualified and experienced Commissioners who could control their temper, speak civilly to the management team, and refrain from creating a toxic work environment.

Even worse, they hounded two(?) excellent commissioners off the Board

[FlyingScot]

I guess the full time employees are the first ever to work for a demanding boss or a demanding board of directors who demanded accountability and transparency. I didn't realize they were such snowflakes.

Since Day and Co had the stones to bet their livelihoods on the stand-off, maybe a different metaphor than snowflake is in order?

[Major]

Yes, the delegation is accountable to the taxpayers. However, the delegation appoints the commissioners who in turn appoint the full time personnel. Maybe the issue is that with a delegation demanding accountability, the full time staff were worried that they would be unable to award themselves big fat bonuses with "management" breathing down their neck. I would further add that these bonuses were awarded to the top level management only. They weren't too concerned about individuals who do the day-to-day work that makes Gunstock great during the season. (I have a relative who has a very important job that is key to the success of Gunstock during the winter and he like his peers were snubbed.) The top management were concerned only about themselves.

[John Mercier]

As I stated... the Delegation is not being questioned about the GAC... that battle is more than lost.

The Delegation is being questioned by the County Commissioners... which they do not appoint... on legal expenditures that they did not have the authority to make.

So Silber is like that Gunstock Management team that doesn't want any oversight... but it doesn't work that way.

[FlyingScot]

Yes, the delegation is accountable to the taxpayers. However, the delegation appoints the commissioners who in turn appoint the full time personnel. Maybe the issue is that with a delegation demanding accountability, the full time staff were worried that they would be unable to award themselves big fat bonuses with "management" breathing down their neck. I would further add that these bonuses were awarded to the top level management only. They weren't too concerned about individuals who do the day-to-day work that makes Gunstock great during the season. (I have a relative who has a very important job that is key to the success of Gunstock during the winter and he like his peers were snubbed.) The top management were concerned only about themselves.

It's funny that you continually cast aspersions on the management team with no evidence ("Maybe the issue is..."), yet you ignore the long public, factual record of bad behavior by Silber, Sylvia, and their cronies. It's as if you think none of us have been following the story for months...

[John Mercier]

A think the major concern is that the County Commission will hold firm.
Without revealing the emails, I believe the legal firm was working for Silber and Sylvia and not we, the taxpayers.

The two of them should pick up the $30K...

[BroadHopper]

Well, the game plan is to bypass the free staters in a legal way. So far the AG allows the majority of the Belknap Commission to overrule the Silber/Sylvia even tho they have the lead seat.

So far, Belknap Commission voted out Strang, Ness resigned, and Day is back! We still have a way until the November elections. The Delegates led by Sylvia will put up a fight, but I think the Commission has enough power to overrule. Especially with the NH AG and Gov. Sununu on their side.

A good number of season pass sales were refunded. Soulfest sued Gunstock and hopefully, Day can make amends. Soulfest has also expressed they will not return. Almost a month of park revenue was also lost. Valued employees who have found another job may not return. Consider this a challenge, not failure.

What's next? Well, the Democratic Party has been meeting weekly to solidify its party. The Republicans are splintered and need help. There are plenty of independents that can switch for the Primary and choose non-free staters to run. This and the November election will choose the direction.

I think voters learned a lesson. Choose candidates wisely and vote!

[John Mercier]

It isn't the AG.
The Delegation has budgeting authority...
But the County Commission has spending authority.
The two are different.

[Descant]

Right. In this thread there are varied references to the ":Commission" and it is not always clear if the post refers to Gunstock Area Commission, appointed by the delegation (State Reps) or the
County Commissioners who are elected as a separate office. County Commissioners are more like Selectmen, but at the County level, is the best I can describe it.

[Major]

It's funny that you continually cast aspersions on the management team with no evidence ("Maybe the issue is..."), yet you ignore the long public, factual record of bad behavior by Silber, Sylvia, and their cronies. It's as if you think none of us have been following the story for months...

Do you deny that the management team awarded themselves big bonuses without seeking any approval? That's a fact, I think. As I stated, I am close with a long term employee. The management isn't as wonderful as news and social media projects. They are difficult to work for and do not value low level employees. That's a fact, although it isn't published.

The point of my comments is that this is not a black and white situation. The news and social media has chosen a side and has decided to pillory the other side. The "factual record of bad behavior by Silber, Sylvia" is a result of the media's bias reporting. There is nuance in this situation. You have decided which side you are on. Just know that it isn't as clear cut as you think. (I'm reminded about statements made on this Forum about Russian collusion back in the day.)

[John Mercier]

They spent $50K with no authority to do so.
The County Commission covered up the original $20K; but wants more information on the other $30k.

Bad behavior by the Management does not cover for bad behavior by Sylvia/Silber.

That would be like arguing that cheating at the Academy is acceptable because you saw someone else cheat.

[Slickcraft]

Good that Gunstock is open again.

The new GAC member’s husband is a ski instructor at Gunstock, a good sign.

Lots of finger pointing for a while.

Unlikely, however, that the free staters have lost sight of their objectives.

Alan

[FlyingScot]

Do you deny that the management team awarded themselves big bonuses without seeking any approval? That's a fact, I think. As I stated, I am close with a long term employee. The management isn't as wonderful as news and social media projects. They are difficult to work for and do not value low level employees. That's a fact, although it isn't published.

The point of my comments is that this is not a black and white situation. The news and social media has chosen a side and has decided to pillory the other side. The "factual record of bad behavior by Silber, Sylvia" is a result of the media's bias reporting. There is nuance in this situation. You have decided which side you are on. Just know that it isn't as clear cut as you think. (I'm reminded about statements made on this Forum about Russian collusion back in the day.)

I have not written anything about bonuses--if you have a newspaper article or minutes of a meeting or any sort of substantiation that money was spent improperly, other than an anonymous person supposedly in the know, please share. Otherwise you should not assert malfeasance.

Similarly, unless you can point to specific reporting that is wrong, you should not criticize LDS et al. They appear to have provided great coverage here

[rocket21]

A good number of season pass sales were refunded. Soulfest sued Gunstock and hopefully, Day can make amends. Soulfest has also expressed they will not return. Almost a month of park revenue was also lost. Valued employees who have found another job may not return. Consider this a challenge, not failure.

What's next? Well, the Democratic Party has been meeting weekly to solidify its party. The Republicans are splintered and need help. There are plenty of independents that can switch for the Primary and choose non-free staters to run. This and the November election will choose the direction.

I think voters learned a lesson. Choose candidates wisely and vote!

- There is zero data showing that a "good number of season pass sales were refunded."
- Soulfest did not sue Gunstock.
- Soufest announced they were moving to a new venue well before the management resignation.
- Then adventure park was closed for 10 days, not a month. The mountain coaster had already been closed for repairs prior to the management resignation.

This situation is already messy enough. Please don't propagate false or unsubstantiated claims to make political points.

[Major]

I have not written anything about bonuses--if you have a newspaper article or minutes of a meeting or any sort of substantiation that money was spent improperly, other than an anonymous person supposedly in the know, please share. Otherwise you should not assert malfeasance.

Similarly, unless you can point to specific reporting that is wrong, you should not criticize LDS et al. They appear to have provided great coverage here

You are unwittingly making my point. (I am assuming you meant "I have not seen anything written about bonuses".) You haven't seen anything written because the LDS is covering only one side of the story. Although I do seem to recall seeing something about the bonuses in the LDS.

The Granite Grok reported --

"The general manager of Gunstock, who is already believed to be the highest-paid employee in Belknap County government, with a base salary of $180,250 per year + benefits, received a cash bonus of an additional $40,000.

With a base salary of $123,600 + benefits, the Gunstock Chief Financial Officer received a cash bonus of $23,484.

And 3 other employees , with base salaries of $95,004; $96,096; and $71,774 (all plus benefits) received cash bonuses of $18,069; 17,370 and $10,000, respectively.

Total bonuses paid to all employees added up to $151,873, but most of those bonus monies went only to the “top” people."

[John Mercier]

It was in the LDS.
A letter from Norm Silber on September 22nd of last year.

Performance Bonuses would also happen under a private operation.
The County of Belknap would only receive whatever the formula for payout was... and I believe that GAC followed that formula.

[FlyingScot]

Do you deny that the management team awarded themselves big bonuses without seeking any approval? That's a fact, I think.


You are unwittingly making my point. (I am assuming you meant "I have not seen anything written about bonuses".) You haven't seen anything written because the LDS is covering only one side of the story. Although I do seem to recall seeing something about the bonuses in the LDS.

The Granite Grok reported --

"The general manager of Gunstock, who is already believed to be the highest-paid employee in Belknap County government, with a base salary of $180,250 per year + benefits, received a cash bonus of an additional $40,000.

With a base salary of $123,600 + benefits, the Gunstock Chief Financial Officer received a cash bonus of $23,484.

And 3 other employees , with base salaries of $95,004; $96,096; and $71,774 (all plus benefits) received cash bonuses of $18,069; 17,370 and $10,000, respectively.

Total bonuses paid to all employees added up to $151,873, but most of those bonus monies went only to the “top” people."

Your first post suggests there was something improper. According to your second post, the Grok (which is not a real newspaper, but obviously a political organization), did NOT report that anything about the bonuses was improper, they only reported the bonus amounts.

As for the amounts--$220,000 is definitely a lot of money, but that is likely less than a private sector CEO of an operation the size of Gunstock would earn. Similarly, big bonuses going to the top people--this is also like the private sector. You should be careful what you wish for...

[StevenGilford]

Do you deny that the management team awarded themselves big bonuses without seeking any approval? That's a fact, I think.

It's not a fact. It was voted and approved by the Gunstock Area Commissioners.

"He added that this year’s fiscal budget allowed for performance bonuses, contingent upon the results of the financial audit and he would be asking for a vote to release those funds."

"Motion: Commissioner Gallagher made a motion to approve the release of
allocated funds for recommended bonuses based on the completion
of the independent financial audit.

Second: Commissioner Dumais.

Discussion: Commissioner Gallagher commented that the audit now validates
that Gunstock will be returning close to $250,000 to Belknap
Country because of the good work that was done this year. He said
this is a significant increase to the $175,000 that Gunstock would
normally send to the county and should be recognized.

Vote: All in favor. Chair Kiedaisch voted as proxy for Commissioner
McLear."

https://www.gunstock.com/upload/photos/page_223_gac-meeting-minutes-07.29.21-draft.pdf


Edit: ready for the next moving of the goalposts "they shouldn't have done that with taxpayer money" or "why did the senior staff get the big bonuses and the rest of the staff got scraps"

Seriously, if you get your information from Norm you really have to question all of it, he is not a trustworthy individual.

Edit: oh I see that we have already been quoting GraniteGrok, Norm's favorite website "oh this is too much to pay a county employee wah wahh". Show me any other county employees that run a Net Profitable business that has increased revenues by millions of dollars!

[mowtorman]

From Gary Kaidasch April 1990

He said there are no plans for real-estate or condominium developments on the mountain.

“We’ve seen the sins of those ways,” he said.

He said the company is committed to running the mountain based on its services, namely skiing.

[rocket21]

As for the amounts--$220,000 is definitely a lot of money, but that is likely less than a private sector CEO of an operation the size of Gunstock would earn. Similarly, big bonuses going to the top people--this is also like the private sector. You should be careful what you wish for...

The general manager of Cannon Mountain made $89,559.50 in 2021.

[John Mercier]

The general manager of Cannon Mountain made $89,559.50 in 2021.
State Employee... not exactly a group being operated like a private business.

[FlyingScot]

The general manager of Cannon Mountain made $89,559.50 in 2021.

I have no idea of the specifics on that particular situation, but that is an insanely low amount of money for a person with that kind of job.

More importantly though--if keeping executive pay low is important to you, the last thing you should want is a for-profit group on the mountain. Corporations pay their executives much more than states, cities, nonprofits; and also much more than middle managers. As a beneficiary of this disparity, I'm not complaining, just pointing it out

[bigdog]

It's not a fact. It was voted and approved by the Gunstock Area Commissioners.

"He added that this year’s fiscal budget allowed for performance bonuses, contingent upon the results of the financial audit and he would be asking for a vote to release those funds."

"Motion: Commissioner Gallagher made a motion to approve the release of
allocated funds for recommended bonuses based on the completion
of the independent financial audit.

Second: Commissioner Dumais.

Discussion: Commissioner Gallagher commented that the audit now validates
that Gunstock will be returning close to $250,000 to Belknap
Country because of the good work that was done this year. He said
this is a significant increase to the $175,000 that Gunstock would
normally send to the county and should be recognized.

Vote: All in favor. Chair Kiedaisch voted as proxy for Commissioner
McLear."

https://www.gunstock.com/upload/photos/page_223_gac-meeting-minutes-07.29.21-draft.pdf


Edit: ready for the next moving of the goalposts "they shouldn't have done that with taxpayer money" or "why did the senior staff get the big bonuses and the rest of the staff got scraps"

Seriously, if you get your information from Norm you really have to question all of it, he is not a trustworthy individual.

Edit: oh I see that we have already been quoting GraniteGrok, Norm's favorite website "oh this is too much to pay a county employee wah wahh". Show me any other county employees that run a Net Profitable business that has increased revenues by millions of dollars!


If Gunstock will be returning close to $250,000 to Belknap Country. is that before paying out $150k in bonuses to the Senior mgt and staff,
if not would only mean $100k coming back to Belknap residents.

The US Census 2021 population for Belknap County states to be 65,000.
If the actual net profit to be returned is $150k, that equates to about $2.30
per person, if profit is actually $250k, equates to $3.80. I don't know what to do with all this money ? :)

Actually, Gunstock municipal support relies heavily on Gilford for Police,Fire and Ambulance. That said, I hope Gilford receives more than their fair share of this profit, whatever it may be.

[John Mercier]

The $250K is before.
And any municipality providing any services is allowed to bill.

If you use an ambulance or a fire department they will bill you directly or your insurer.

[bigdog]

The $250K is before.
And any municipality providing any services is allowed to bill.

If you use an ambulance or a fire department they will bill you directly or your insurer.

So the net profit returned to Belknap Count residents is actually $150k, after paying bonuses... IMHO think these salaries & bonuses for 'County' employees is excessive, but this is just my opinion.

Thanks John for the explanation, much appreciated !

[rocket21]

I have no idea of the specifics on that particular situation, but that is an insanely low amount of money for a person with that kind of job.

1) Ski industry pay tends to track much lower than other sectors. Nevertheless, Cannon is a larger facility than Gunstock.
2) Government employment typically carries robust benefit packages. I do not know what the benefit packages are at Gunstock, but I suspect they are much more generous than other mid-sized ski areas.


More importantly though--if keeping executive pay low is important to you, the last thing you should want is a for-profit group on the mountain. Corporations pay their executives much more than states, cities, nonprofits; and also much more than middle managers. As a beneficiary of this disparity, I'm not complaining, just pointing it out

If Gunstock were leased to a private operator, executive and staff pay wouldn't be taxpayers' issue. The lease proceeds would be. If using the Sunapee model, Gunstock would provide the county with significantly more revenue than the current model, while offloading the risk of bad seasons and bad debt.

[John Mercier]

So the net profit returned to Belknap Count residents is actually $150k, after paying bonuses... IMHO think these salaries & bonuses for 'County' employees is excessive, but this is just my opinion.

Thanks John for the explanation, much appreciated !

No. It is $250K, plus enhancements based on a formula.

It works like a standard lease deal.

Gunstock is a county-owned assets, but it works like a private entity with the GAC being the principle and the County Commission leasing the property to them.
After they pay the ''lease'', the GAC can use the revenue in any way they feel will enhance the future of Gunstock.

The management must be worth the salary... they only resigned for a short period and the new GAC went out of their way to hire them back.

[John Mercier]

1) Ski industry pay tends to track much lower than other sectors. Nevertheless, Cannon is a larger facility than Gunstock.
2) Government employment typically carries robust benefit packages. I do not know what the benefit packages are at Gunstock, but I suspect they are much more generous than other mid-sized ski areas.

If Gunstock were leased to a private operator, executive and staff pay wouldn't be taxpayers' issue. The lease proceeds would be. If using the Sunapee model, Gunstock would provide the county with significantly more revenue than the current model, while offloading the risk of bad seasons and bad debt.

The lease proceeds are the only thing we should have been worried about even without it being privatized. It wasn't like they were violating the ''lease''; they made the payments as specified.
No private operator has ever even offered to take over the area, so your point is moot... since that option doesn't exist and wishful thinking will not make it happen.

The only privatized options placed on the table have been for food and lodging. There is an occasional look at further rec formats, but many of those come and go.

But all of that is over... the management team are back, the GAC is reformed, and all that is left is the $30K that will most likely end up in the lap of Silber and Sylvia.

[rocket21]

The lease proceeds are the only thing we should have been worried about even without it being privatized. It wasn't like they were violating the ''lease''; they made the payments as specified.

That is not an accurate statement. It was only a few years ago (different management team & GAC) that Gunstock refused to make payments to the county. And there's also history of Gunstock not covering its debt payments (again, different management team & GAC).


No private operator has ever even offered to take over the area, so your point is moot... since that option doesn't exist and wishful thinking will not make it happen.
Also not an accurate statement. Without an RFP or RFI, private operators aren't going to make an offer. If the county ever decided to issue an RFP, there would be quite a few qualified responses.

[John Mercier]

So we punish the GAC and management team for what others did in the past?
WOW.

The new GAC, appointed by the current delegation with the blessing of Silber/Sylvia, could have made such a request... it chose to rehire the management team.

Your horse is dead.
The only open item on the agenda is the $30K.

No private entity with any financial backing is going to support an out of the way ski area that has no room for expansion in the food and accommodations area... even Sunapee had large lawsuits against the State on the issue.

[Cobaltdeadhead]

Sunapee under Vail is the perfect example of exactly what we don't want to happen to Gunstock. I'm sure it makes a lot of money, but Vail runs that place like garbage. Very slow and timid on snowmaking, horrible F&B operations, uncomfortably crowded and considerably more expensive than Gunstock.

[Major]

It is apparent that what I do not know about the legal entanglements between the delegation, the County Commissioners, the Gunstock Area Commissioners, and the full time staff can fill volumes. I appreciate the education.

However, at some level, doesn't the county delegation control the finances of the county budgets? And if so, are there mechanisms in place for setting salaries and awarding bonuses? For example, did the senior leadership of the Sherriff's department or the county nursing home receive merit bonuses. I guess I shouldn't have much heartache about the bonuses if they were awarded in a proper manner.

And why is the GAC and the full time employees against an audit? I was a managing partner in a law firm for 8 years. If one of my partners, or our firm's bank, wanted to audit our books, I would welcome such a request. If I went kicking and screaming against it, wouldn't that raise issues to the other stakeholders?

And finally, why is the GAC making political contributions? Shouldn't a government owned entity be agnostic?

[jeffk]

It seems to me there is a critical distinction between Gunstock and other government agencies. Gunstock is a profit generating business. Other government agencies are taxpayer funded necessary evils. Government usually does not “own” or run businesses and the current mess surrounding Gunstock is a prime example of why not.

The philosophy of a business is that it is profitable to all involved. Owners (in this case the County), managers, affiliated vendors, etc. It is absolutely normal that the management of a corporation vote itself bonuses and significant salaries. The expertise of these people is in demand and if the success and profits they generate are not shared with them, they will go elsewhere.

Government does not make a profit. It does not generally understand the necessities of business. They talk about “accountability to taxpayers” and demand audits so they can niggle over small things to assume control over something that they have NO idea how to manage. An example is the $500 campaign donation to Sununu. This is a typical action for a business to take. It is a TINY issue that would have been a Nothing Burger to a business. Even for Gunstock, this should have been a simple suggestion to management that in the future the Commission would prefer that no political donations be made. But government officials can’t solve problems like that. They must make it into some type of major, disruptive problem.

As to an audit, the Country is receiving $7+ M? in earnings from Gunstock this year and has gotten good money in the past years. The resort has a good reputation and improving facilities that draw more customers. Are the people wanting an audit saying that they get NO financial reports from management? That’s absurd. What an audit will be used for is to deep dive for spending that a business would routinely make but government might not. Then the government troublemakers will make ridiculous attacks on management.

Let’s think about the likely outcome of this. The current management gets fed up and leaves. Any decent managers would look at this mess and want nothing to do with it. They can make more money elsewhere. Gunstock would probably end up with political cronies that have no clue how to run the place. Profits would drop and the facilities would go downhill.

Instead of a fishing expedition audit, maybe the politicians should respectfully sit down with the management and ask them about any expenditures they might want more information about.

Government in charge of a business is a bad idea. Government micromanaging a business to government standards is a disaster.

[Descant]

It seems to me there is a critical distinction between Gunstock and other government agencies. Gunstock is a profit generating business. Other government agencies are taxpayer funded necessary evils. Government usually does not “own” or run businesses and the current mess surrounding Gunstock is a prime example of why not.

The philosophy of a business is that it is profitable to all involved. Owners (in this case the County), managers, affiliated vendors, etc. It is absolutely normal that the management of a corporation vote itself bonuses and significant salaries. The expertise of these people is in demand and if the success and profits they generate are not shared with them, they will go elsewhere.

Government does not make a profit. It does not generally understand the necessities of business. They talk about “accountability to taxpayers” and demand audits so they can niggle over small things to assume control over something that they have NO idea how to manage. An example is the $500 campaign donation to Sununu. This is a typical action for a business to take. It is a TINY issue that would have been a Nothing Burger to a business. Even for Gunstock, this should have been a simple suggestion to management that in the future the Commission would prefer that no political donations be made. But government officials can’t solve problems like that. They must make it into some type of major, disruptive problem.

As to an audit, the Country is receiving $7+ M? in earnings from Gunstock this year and has gotten good money in the past years. The resort has a good reputation and improving facilities that draw more customers. Are the people wanting an audit saying that they get NO financial reports from management? That’s absurd. What an audit will be used for is to deep dive for spending that a business would routinely make but government might not. Then the government troublemakers will make ridiculous attacks on management.

Let’s think about the likely outcome of this. The current management gets fed up and leaves. Any decent managers would look at this mess and want nothing to do with it. They can make more money elsewhere. Gunstock would probably end up with political cronies that have no clue how to run the place. Profits would drop and the facilities would go downhill.

Instead of a fishing expedition audit, maybe the politicians should respectfully sit down with the management and ask them about any expenditures they might want more information about.

Government in charge of a business is a bad idea. Government micromanaging a business to government standards is a disaster.


JeffK makes some good points. You may be right on different scales, BUT in NH there are examples of government run businesses that are successful. Obvious to most is the state liquor outlets. Another is the state park system which is self supporting. In Hillsborough County the county nursing home is a profit maker.

If I remember correctly, when Mueller, et al, started leasing Sunapee, it was pretty shabby and the renewable 10 year leases allowed them to invest in fixed assets that led to more skiers and other improved revenues. Nobody wanted to lease Cannon, but the money from Sunapee that went to Cannon improvements led to increased skier visits and revenues there too.

[John Mercier]

It is apparent that what I do not know about the legal entanglements between the delegation, the County Commissioners, the Gunstock Area Commissioners, and the full time staff can fill volumes. I appreciate the education.

However, at some level, doesn't the county delegation control the finances of the county budgets? And if so, are there mechanisms in place for setting salaries and awarding bonuses? For example, did the senior leadership of the Sherriff's department or the county nursing home receive merit bonuses. I guess I shouldn't have much heartache about the bonuses if they were awarded in a proper manner.

And why is the GAC and the full time employees against an audit? I was a managing partner in a law firm for 8 years. If one of my partners, or our firm's bank, wanted to audit our books, I would welcome such a request. If I went kicking and screaming against it, wouldn't that raise issues to the other stakeholders?

And finally, why is the GAC making political contributions? Shouldn't a government owned entity be agnostic?The Delegation approves the County budget... but does not set salaries/etc; that is the County Commission, an elected body.

The GAC hires for Gunstock and approves their budget... the Delegation only has the authority to appoint the GAC members on a specified format.

Gunstock is independently audited every year and has been for many years. Ness stopped this year's annual audit... when he became chair. The full time employees/management hasn't really expressed opposition to the audit.

The political contributions were approved by the GAC... which approves the budget for Gunstock.

[Major]

The Delegation approves the County budget... but does not set salaries/etc; that is the County Commission, an elected body.

The GAC hires for Gunstock and approves their budget... the Delegation only has the authority to appoint the GAC members on a specified format.

Gunstock is independently audited every year and has been for many years. Ness stopped this year's annual audit... when he became chair. The full time employees/management hasn't really expressed opposition to the audit.

The political contributions were approved by the GAC... which approves the budget for Gunstock.

Okay, I think we are getting somewhere. Thank you for the helpful information. I have a few more questions.

The Delegation approves the budget, I get that. I work better with analogies. In my firm, the firm's directors set salaries and bonuses for the firm's staff (assistants, paralegals, HR, IT, Accounting, etc.). As a member of the Management Committee, we reviewed the directors' recommendations and made changes that we saw fit to make. So I guess I'm asking does the Delegation have the ability to change a budgetary item or to make suggestions to expenses, including salaries? If so, it appears to me that the Delegation has some level of control of these issues. If not, then that's fine too, I guess.

I read today in the LDS that Gunstock is subject to an annual audit that is authorized by the GAC and conducted by a third party. In reading between the lines, it appears that the new leaders of the Delegation wanted to conduct its own audit with it's own third party auditors. Again, using an analogy, let's say Gunstock was a private entity, and was the subject of a sale to a Buyer. If Gunstock denied the buyer's request for an independent third party audit, but instead insisted that the Buyer rely on Gunstock's own third party audit, wouldn't that raise red flags? I go back to a statement that I made earlier, if I ran a business (which I do), I would welcome any and all audits to establish trust and transparency. The last thing I would do is rely on "we've always done it this way and you should be happy with it" mentality. And to my earlier points, wouldn't have the GAC and the full time management been better off taking this approach rather than being insulted?

And finally, you did not answer my question about the political contribution. I read, like you, that the GAC approved (and has always approved) this type of political contribution. I get it. That doesn't make it right. Gunstock cannot have it both ways -- being treated as a private entity and as a public concern -- it is a public concern and the appearance of impropriety of dolling out political contributions far outweighs its benefits.

[rocket21]

So we punish the GAC and management team for what others did in the past?
WOW.
I don't think anyone is suggesting the GAC and management team be punished for actions for which they were not responsible. The past is relevant to the delegation, in that they a fiduciary responsibility to ensure protect taxpayers by ensuring these problems don't recur.


No private entity with any financial backing is going to support an out of the way ski area that has no room for expansion in the food and accommodations area.
Wachusett is one of the most successful ski areas in the country and its operator has virtually no ability to expand. The operator bid on the New Hampshire areas (Cannon/Sunapee) knowing they'd have to focus on existing operations.


JeffK makes some good points. You may be right on different scales, BUT in NH there are examples of government run businesses that are successful. Obvious to most is the state liquor outlets. Another is the state park system which is self supporting.
The NH state park system is self-supporting in name only. It is heavily subsidized from the general fund on a capital basis and also has significant deferred maintenance.



If I remember correctly, when Mueller, et al, started leasing Sunapee, it was pretty shabby and the renewable 10 year leases allowed them to invest in fixed assets that led to more skiers and other improved revenues. Nobody wanted to lease Cannon, but the money from Sunapee that went to Cannon improvements led to increased skier visits and revenues there too.
Both ski areas had numerous qualified bids. The Cannon lease was supposed to be awarded at the same time as the Sunapee lease, but an unknown party was able to get the state to pull it at the last minute.

Sunapee was a 20-year lease with two 10-year automatic renewals. Without the millions in Sunapee revenue (and millions in general fund dollars), Cannon would have been in jeopardy.

Sunapee under Vail is the perfect example of exactly what we don't want to happen to Gunstock. I'm sure it makes a lot of money, but Vail runs that place like garbage. Very slow and timid on snowmaking, horrible F&B operations, uncomfortably crowded and considerably more expensive than Gunstock.
Vail was a dumpster fire in New Hampshire last year. That said, Gunstock was no bargain at $96/day.

As to an audit, the Country is receiving $7+ M?
No, the county receives about $300K from Gunstock from the most recent fiscal year.

I believe the $7M figure is what's in the bank, which I suspect is a lot of "restricted" cash (e.g. 2022-23 season pass revenue). A much better situation than a few years ago, when Gunstock couldn't get through the off-season without a county-backed bridge loan.

[John Mercier]

Wachussets? A little different than out-of-the-way Gunstock.
And the operator, Okemo, sued the State for the expansion...
so what they ''knew'' seems to be different than what you are projecting.

But if you feel strongly about it...
Suggest to the GAC that you would like to lease the area...
Lay out formal proposal and bring forth your financials to show you can cover it... and maybe they will.

Other than that... the horse is dead.
The only issue is the $30k.

[rocket21]

Wachussets? A little different than out-of-the-way Gunstock.
Both are mid-sized, day-trip areas located less than two hours from millions of people, and are facing capacity issues with their current footprints. Some might suggest that Wachusett has perfected the model.


And the operator, Okemo, sued the State for the expansion...
so what they ''knew'' seems to be different than what you are projecting.
That's not quite what happened...


But if you feel strongly about it...
Suggest to the GAC that you would like to lease the area...
Lay out formal proposal and bring forth your financials to show you can cover it... and maybe they will.

Members of the GAC and Belknap County Delegation have both expressed the opinion that they do not have the authority to lease the ski area.

[John Mercier]

One is 50 minutes, and the other wouldn't have any effect on hotels/motels/STR if it were closer.

So again the papers got it all wrong?

If they don't have the authority to private lease... then why are you focusing on leasing it like Sunapee?

[Cobaltdeadhead]

Comparing Gunstock to Wachusett is disingenuous. Wachusett has millions more people within an hour drive than Gunstock.

Rocket is focused on a lease for the same reason as Sylvia. That's his ideology. He has a website fully devoted to ripping the state for how they run Cannon. Even links articles from right wing propaganda "news" agency Granite Grok

http://www.taxpayersforcannon.com/news.php

[Descant]

One is 50 minutes, and the other wouldn't have any effect on hotels/motels/STR if it were closer.

So again the papers got it all wrong?

If they don't have the authority to private lease... then why are you focusing on leasing it like Sunapee?

Right! Maybe lease is the wrong word? I'm sure if there were an RFP issued, two parties could come up with an imaginative agreement/arrangement. It just takes willing participants. With all due respect to the delegation,, not all members of the delegation are willing. At the state level, Administrastyive Services has expertise that the ;legislature can look to. I'm not sure Belknap County has a parallel body. There are/were some very experienced folks on the GAC. I hope a level of trust there can be re-established.

[John Mercier]

I think lease is the word...
But for it to be worthwhile... the county is going to want more than they are currently getting, and private company is going to want a return on investment that is not hampered by the preclusion of vertical and lateral integration.
Because that is the way that you expand the profit potential over time.

The old GAC, and I believe if they are honorable - the new GAC, will seek the same path.
It will be up to the county to work out a better lease with those improvements.

But as it stands... the $30k is the only thing really yet to be resolved.

[rocket21]

I think lease is the word...
But for it to be worthwhile... the county is going to want more than they are currently getting, and private company is going to want a return on investment that is not hampered by the preclusion of vertical and lateral integration.
Because that is the way that you expand the profit potential over time.
The old GAC, and I believe if they are honorable - the new GAC, will seek the same path.
It will be up to the county to work out a better lease with those improvements.


The biggest obstacle for a lease arrangement would likely be the bureaucratic process, e.g. determining a legal method to pursue it (since I don't think any GAC member claims to have that ability). There are definitely ways for the county to maximize its net proceeds from Gunstock while offloading risk. That said, I think there would be huge issues if the county attempted to let a lessee pursue the ambitious master plan as presented last year.


But as it stands... the $30k is the only thing really yet to be resolved.

It sounds like there are quite a few open issues that need to be resolved, but the legal mess does seem to be an open issue.

[StevenGilford]

And to my earlier points, wouldn't have the GAC and the full time management been better off taking this approach rather than being insulted?

If you believe Silber, Ness and Strang, they were just "asking questions and providing oversight"

If you believe just about everyone else including the majority of Gunstock staff, Ness and Strang were using this sham "audit" approach as a way to legitimize their toxic micromanagement behaviors and harassment of the management team.

I believe the latter, so don't think that the full-time management team should have just gone along with it.

[John Mercier]

The biggest obstacle for a lease arrangement would likely be the bureaucratic process, e.g. determining a legal method to pursue it (since I don't think any GAC member claims to have that ability). There are definitely ways for the county to maximize its net proceeds from Gunstock while offloading risk. That said, I think there would be huge issues if the county attempted to let a lessee pursue the ambitious master plan as presented last year.



It sounds like there are quite a few open issues that need to be resolved, but the legal mess does seem to be an open issue.

Having the ability doesn't change the financials... and whether it is all leased, or just portions, the food and accommodations part will need to be on the table. The campground should be seeing net positive revenue... but the only way to expand that is horizontally over more acres... while the hotel would go vertical. We may see it at the lodge rather than the peak... but without disrupting operations, that would be really hard... and a very complex lease.

[rocket21]

Having the ability doesn't change the financials... and whether it is all leased, or just portions, the food and accommodations part will need to be on the table. The campground should be seeing net positive revenue... but the only way to expand that is horizontally over more acres... while the hotel would go vertical. We may see it at the lodge rather than the peak... but without disrupting operations, that would be really hard... and a very complex lease.

I'm not understanding the first part of your message.

With regard to existing and future operations, as well as the campground, this has been encountered before. Mt. Sunapee also has a campground. I don't believe slopeside lodging in the park was ever a consideration with the lease.

I don't understand the push to build a hotel at Gunstock. What is the point of having a county-operated mega-resort? Doesn't Gunstock better serve county residents if it's an affordable, accessible, minimally-developed day-area?

I certainly get why certain developers would like to build a premium hotel up on the Overlook, but should county land be used for that purpose?

[John Mercier]

The leasee had attaching property that the State was not willing to allow either.
The lawsuit ended that.

To increase the accommodations at Gunstock in the current format, you would need to expand the campground (more acres) or build vertically at the lodge (disruption of current business).

And no, it better serves residents if it can support higher payments to the county... as most residents do not ski.

But even a private operator would tell the GAC/Delegation, that to keep slope fees low enough... with rising need for snowmaking and the amount of energy that goes to such... you are going to need something that subsidizes it.

[rocket21]

To increase the accommodations at Gunstock in the current format, you would need to expand the campground (more acres) or build vertically at the lodge (disruption of current business).

To increase accommodations? There are essentially no accommodations during ski season, apart from two cabins that sleep a total of 8 adults.

And no, it better serves residents if it can support higher payments to the county... as most residents do not ski.
If the primary goal of Gunstock is to provide higher payments to the county, then it should have been leased long ago.


But even a private operator would tell the GAC/Delegation, that to keep slope fees low enough... with rising need for snowmaking and the amount of energy that goes to such... you are going to need something that subsidizes it.
If Gunstock were to maintain its current footprint, there wouldn't be much more snowmaking capacity needed. Likewise, there would be LESS energy needed due to advances in snowmaking energy efficiency.

The proposed hotel is not the panacea for the county. That said, it could be one heck of a moneymaker for a private developer, especially if the county foots the bill for the infrastructure (it won't be cheap to get the road and utilities halfway up the mountain).

[John Mercier]

Odd, Gunstock is showing winter camping.
https://www.gunstock.com/camping/winter-camping/

It could never find anyone with the financials to lease it.
The new GAC had the option to go that way... but I think they know that no private equity is willing to do so... if not they could talk to Goddard.

The same footprint will require more snowmaking... as we are seeing less natural snow. The efficiency increases will not keep up with the price increases.

All things being constant... slope fees will need to rise.
Lower fees for county residents would need to be offset with higher fees for non-residents.
If you lose some non-residents due to the higher fee, and other options for them, you have to increase the fees for the remaining non-residents starting the cycle again. At a certain point, there aren't any non-residents to transfer the costs to.

[rocket21]

Odd, Gunstock is showing winter camping.
https://www.gunstock.com/camping/winter-camping/

I think you'll find very few people who consider winter camping to be "accommodations" at a ski resort.


The same footprint will require more snowmaking... as we are seeing less natural snow.
The 2000s saw quite a few good winters in terms of natural snow, whereas the late 80s/early 90s, early 1980s, early 1970s, early 1950s, late 1940s, and mid-to-late 1930s were rough. Gunstock has more favorable weather than successful ski areas south of here have survived, and probably wouldn't need a dramatic increase in snowmaking to maintain a viable product in the event of sustained mild winters.


The efficiency increases will not keep up with the price increases.
You previously said "the amount of energy that goes to such," which does not comport with advances in snowmaking energy efficiency. I agree that energy prices are a major concern and are going to put significant upward pressure on pricing.

[fatlazyless]

From https://www.gunstock.com/calendar/ .... next Sunday, August 14, 10am-4pm is Belknap County Day with a FREE scenic chairlift ride or a FREE mountain coaster ride .... click on 'Belknap County Day'

Maybe this can become a Gunstock, show your Belknap County support day, or something, plus the price is very reasonable ... it's free! .... ;) .... and shake hands with either the Gunstock Team management or with the 'free-stater', local state reps ...... someone for everyone ..... hoo yuh want? ..... what yuh want? ..... :patriot:

[John Mercier]

I think you'll find very few people who consider winter camping to be "accommodations" at a ski resort.


The 2000s saw quite a few good winters in terms of natural snow, whereas the late 80s/early 90s, early 1980s, early 1970s, early 1950s, late 1940s, and mid-to-late 1930s were rough. Gunstock has more favorable weather than successful ski areas south of here have survived, and probably wouldn't need a dramatic increase in snowmaking to maintain a viable product in the event of sustained mild winters.


You previously said "the amount of energy that goes to such," which does not comport with advances in snowmaking energy efficiency. I agree that energy prices are a major concern and are going to put significant upward pressure on pricing.
Well, if you check the latest... you will notice the sled dog races cancelled and snowmobiling on this side of the lake to be a bit ''iffy''.

So they need to make snow... especially for Thanksgiving vacation and Christmas vacation... but also to replenish a base during the February vacation as that is when the sled dog derby gets cancelled.

As for the camping... that is all they have... thus the room for expansion. And as you stated... the winter camping isn't going to cut it; thus a hotel.

They can't just easily expand the number of customers, as they will run out of parking lot and create havoc on the transit corridor equal or worse than what happens in Meredith during the summer... one of the big complaints at Sunapee. So they need to get more money from each customer, and that is done by lateral and vertical integration.

[fatlazyless]

If Exit 21 was actually built back in 1968, as was the plan, it would have gone from Route 93 to the Laconia extension that is close to Gunstock.

Exit 21 would probably be known as the exit to get to Gunstock Ski Area.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/interstate_93 ..... with 44 exits on NH-Route 93, the never built Exit 21 is the only ghost exit that never happened.

Exit 21 ...... never made it ...... for some unknown reason? ...... which does not help Gunstock, too much? So, looking at the list of exits in the Route 93-New Hampshire list in Wikipedia, just take a good look at that Exit 21 that easily takes you to Gunstock. ..... what exit? ..... where is Exit-21? .....:eek2:

Driving up Route 93 with its' 70-mph speed limit, is a quick, brief trip up the road to three other NH ski areas, further north, with larger trail systems ...... Route 93-Exit 28: Waterville Valley ..... Route 93-Exit 32: Loon Mountain ...... and Route 93-Exit 34: Cannon Mountain.

Here's a ski magazine article on Ski-93, New Hampshire from 2015..... www.powder.com/latitudes/ski-93-live-free-or-ski/ ..... and guess what ..... the Gunstock Ski Area is NOT even mentioned. For Gunstock to appear in a ski magazine named 'Powder.com' ...... that magazine name should be changed to 'Wet Slush.com' to be honest .... :emb:

[rocket21]

So they need to make snow... especially for Thanksgiving vacation
Gunstock has never counted on Thanksgiving for any measurable revenue.


They can't just easily expand the number of customers, as they will run out of parking lot and create havoc on the transit corridor equal or worse than what happens in Meredith during the summer... one of the big complaints at Sunapee. So they need to get more money from each customer, and that is done by lateral and vertical integration.

If parking is the limiting factor at Gunstock, why did the master plan propose to dramatically expand the ski area for more skier visits?

[John Mercier]

They make snow for Thanksgiving... so a cost without revenue is questionable tactic.

My point on the parking is that at some point, it maxes...
That point is being made up at Sunapee.

The Master Plan included building more parking and using the hotel funds.
https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/gunstock-rolls-out-first-phase-of-master-plan-with-hotel/article_d980135a-902d-11ec-94ae-cb3e9076bd6e.html

[rocket21]

They make snow for Thanksgiving... so a cost without revenue is questionable tactic.
They are not making snow for Thanksgiving. Gunstock has never counted on Thanksgiving for any measurable revenue. For small- to mid-sized areas, November snowmaking operations are generally about 1) testing/training and 2) building base if there are good windows. Snowmaking output is exponential; if you get cold, dry weather, you'll put down a lot more snow than at marginal temperatures. Some recent Novembers provided the best pre-Christmas windows for that.


My point on the parking is that at some point, it maxes...
That point is being made up at Sunapee.
Sunapee is planning to add another lot this year, so they haven't reached their max. Likewise, if parking capacity was the primary concern at Gunstock, why would they be spending all of this money to pave the existing lot, rather than expanding parking?

[rocket21]

Driving up Route 93 with its' 70-mph speed limit, is a quick, brief trip up the road to three other NH ski areas, further north, with larger trail systems ...... Route 93-Exit 28: Waterville Valley ..... Route 93-Exit 32: Loon Mountain ...... and Route 93-Exit 34: Cannon Mountain.

Here's a ski magazine article on Ski-93, New Hampshire from 2015..... www.powder.com/latitudes/ski-93-live-free-or-ski/ ..... and guess what ..... the Gunstock Ski Area is NOT even mentioned. For Gunstock to appear in a ski magazine named 'Powder.com' ...... that magazine name should be changed to 'Wet Slush.com' to be honest .... :emb:

Ragged is also not mentioned. Gunstock and Ragged are mid-sized areas located south of the White Mountain and will never offer 2,000+ vertical feet like Cannon/Loon/Waterville.

If Exit 21 was actually built back in 1968, as was the plan, it would have gone from Route 93 to the Laconia extension that is close to Gunstock.

Exit 21 would probably be known as the exit to get to Gunstock Ski Area.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/interstate_93 ..... with 44 exits on NH-Route 93, the never built Exit 21 is the only ghost exit that never happened.

Exit 21 ...... never made it ...... for some unknown reason? ...... which does not help Gunstock, too much? So, looking at the list of exits in the Route 93-New Hampshire list in Wikipedia, just take a good look at that Exit 21 that easily takes you to Gunstock. ..... what exit? ..... where is Exit-21? .....:eek2:

Interesting thought. Similarly, exit 19 not being a full on/off certainly didn't help the former Highlands ski area.

[John Mercier]

They are not making snow for Thanksgiving. Gunstock has never counted on Thanksgiving for any measurable revenue. For small- to mid-sized areas, November snowmaking operations are generally about 1) testing/training and 2) building base if there are good windows. Snowmaking output is exponential; if you get cold, dry weather, you'll put down a lot more snow than at marginal temperatures. Some recent Novembers provided the best pre-Christmas windows for that.


Sunapee is planning to add another lot this year, so they haven't reached their max. Likewise, if parking capacity was the primary concern at Gunstock, why would they be spending all of this money to pave the existing lot, rather than expanding parking?
Because a parking lot needs to be repaved once in a while, and to expand horizontally means to extend the season. Sort of like the campground did without you even noticing.

[rocket21]

Because a parking lot needs to be repaved once in a while, and to expand horizontally means to extend the season. Sort of like the campground did without you even noticing.

Repaved? Gunstock's parking lot is not paved.

[Cobaltdeadhead]

My experience skiing Gunstock only dates to 2009, but they have never opened for Thanksgiving weekend and really shouldn't. The business won't be there 9 years out of 10. Thanksgiving isn't a profitable weekend for most ski areas. It's a marketing budget spend for basically everywhere but Killington or Sunday River.

But almost all major areas start blowing snow Thanksgiving weekend even without intention to open. It's left in stockpiles which are more resilient to melting out. Then it's an added bonus to push out when a place like Gunstock is ready to go for it and open second weekend of December.

It's not a bad formula

[John Mercier]

Repaved? Gunstock's parking lot is not paved.
The last time I was up, I parked on pavement right off from Alpine Way.
I've never been to any of the other parking areas, as it was a small group called in by Goddard to seek investment by Goddard.
It never really went anywhere as we were told that we should not expect a return on our investment.

You would pave... as they do roads... to lower the maintenance factor.
Middleton Meredith is now all paved for the same reason.
Having large unpaved areas turned out to not be suitable to early spring conditions.

As for Thanksgiving... they would need to find more income.
If they don't expand the amount of time open, then they need to expand the number of customers, and resources max unless you can find full value customers during the current slow periods (guessing weekdays).

Without some sort of expansion, the only option would be higher lift tickets.
Belknap taxpayers are going to expect more revenue from the site... and aren't going to focus on subsidizing some residents' recreational pursuits.

That is what this whole ''privatize'' thing was about... getting more revenue from the area into the county.