Breakthrough infections

[SailinAway]

Someone close to me who is fully vaccinated was just diagnosed with COVID-19. I think what happened was an accumulation of factors: living in Florida, having to go to work in person, and unvaccinated family members. People wonder why I'm still using the same precautions as last year (double mask, 6 feet of distance) when I'm fully vaccinated. I guess they see it as "You're 95% protected. Relax." I see it as SOMEBODY has to be in the other 5% who end up unprotected after they're vaccinated. That's potentially 54,000 adults in New Hampshire. It's magical thinking to believe you couldn't be one of 54,000. So please keep taking precautions even if you're vaccinated, even if only 10% of the people at the grocery store are wearing masks.

[XCR-700]

Someone close to me who is fully vaccinated was just diagnosed with COVID-19. I think what happened was an accumulation of factors: living in Florida, having to go to work in person, and unvaccinated family members. People wonder why I'm still using the same precautions as last year (double mask, 6 feet of distance) when I'm fully vaccinated. I guess they see it as "You're 95% protected. Relax." I see it as SOMEBODY has to be in the other 5% who end up unprotected after they're vaccinated. That's potentially 54,000 adults in New Hampshire. It's magical thinking to believe you couldn't be one of 54,000. So please keep taking precautions even if you're vaccinated, even if only 10% of the people at the grocery store are wearing masks.

Hopefully the double masks you are wearing are not 10 cent made in china models,,,

This is but one example of countless problems; https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-face-mask-fake-turkey-medical-supply-shortage-covid-19-a9423426.html

Masks made in foreign countries, treated with god knows what chemicals and made from who knows what waste materials and packed by infected workers may well end up being more dangerous than COVID. The problem is you may not know it until much later.

If you feel the need to wear a mask, follow the advice of one of the posters here and look for USA made 100% cotton masks. For a while BJ's and Wallmart had Hanes masks that were pretty decent.

Many people dont like the cotton masks as they get wet from breathing through them, which may cause other problems, but is probably the lessor of evils by comparison to this crap they are sending us from overseas, and in some cases even marking them as USA made 3M products and similar.

Beware the solution may be worse then the thing you fear.

As a COVID survivor I am the first to tell you you dont want this, but I also avoid masks as much as possible. Thats said, you would not get me on a bus or subway train in Boston without one,,,

Best of luck

[mswlogo]

Hopefully the double masks you are wearing are not 10 cent made in china models,,,

This is but one example of countless problems; https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-face-mask-fake-turkey-medical-supply-shortage-covid-19-a9423426.html

Masks made in foreign countries, treated with god knows what chemicals and made from who knows what waste materials and packed by infected workers may well end up being more dangerous than COVID. The problem is you may not know it until much later.

If you feel the need to wear a mask, follow the advice of one of the posters here and look for USA made 100% cotton masks. For a while BJ's and Wallmart had Hanes masks that were pretty decent.

Many people dont like the cotton masks as they get wet from breathing through them, which may cause other problems, but is probably the lessor of evils by comparison to this crap they are sending us from overseas, and in some cases even marking them as USA made 3M products and similar.

Beware the solution may be worse then the thing you fear.

As a COVID survivor I am the first to tell you you dont want this, but I also avoid masks as much as possible. Thats said, you would not get me on a bus or subway train in Boston without one,,,

Best of luck

I agree that you need to carefully screen anything you get from China, not just masks, but let’s not exaggerate things to much.

COVID is rarely transmitted through “packages”. So let’s not start making falsehoods of infected Chinese workers sending out infected masks. That’s just flat out wrong in so many ways. Even if infected COVID would not survive that long.

COVID is primarily transmitted through air borne particles.

Like wise masks stop the spread TWO ways. They help protect you from inhaling particles that are suspended around you. That’s actually pretty hard to do without a really good mask. More importantly they reduce how much an infected person spews out. That is much easier to “reduce”. To completely eliminate it, is quite hard. A lot of testing that’s done is filling a space with something and seeing how much can get past the mask. So even cheap crappy masks probably reduce how much gets spewed out. Because 99% masks out there are not tight fitting. And even a good mask can be used poorly.

Here is some more info on it.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavirus-transmission-overview#2-6

[thebix]

7 KN95 Masks for COVID-19 Protection That You Can Buy Online
They can all be found on the FDA’s Emergency Use Authorization list.
By Rebecca Carhart Updated June 01, 2021
Each product we feature has been independently selected and reviewed by our editorial team.

https://www.health.com/mind-body/grief-after-9-11-covid

Stocking up on PPE has become the norm over the last year. While it's a little more straightforward to find a pair of safety glasses that offer protection and hand sanitizer that meets the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's recommendation of using a formula with 60 to 95% alcohol concentration, when it comes to choosing a face mask, the choices can feel overwhelming. N95 masks are still the gold standard, but since the CDC recommends saving them for healthcare workers, many people have turned to the Chinese equivalent, KN95 masks, instead.

According to Julie Chen, MD, an integrative medicine physician who is board-certified in internal medicine, that's because these masks are made from "multiple layers of material that block 95 percent of 0.3 micron particles. Coronavirus is even smaller, at 0.1 microns, but are typically bound to something larger (like droplets), so it's purported to be 95 percent protective."

While KN95 masks may provide a high level of protection, there are a few things to consider when shopping for one. Only a few Chinese manufacturers have been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for emergency use, so if you choose to wear one of these masks, be sure to select an option from this list. Plus, you should also be aware there are many counterfeit KN95 masks being sold online, so it's important to do some research before buying any.

Here are seven FDA-approved KN95 masks that you can buy:

Newmark/Jinhua Jiadaifu Medical Supplies Co KN95 Mask
Boncare/Guangdong Zhizhen Biological Medicine Co Ltd. KN95 Mask
Miuphro/Chengde Technology Co. KN95 Mask
Vida/Guangzhou Nan Qi Xing KN95 Mask
Wwdoll/Chengde Technology Co. KN95 Mask
Maskc KN95 Mask
Powecom/Guangzhou Powecom Labor Insurance Supplies KN95 Mask

I've used this one:
Powecom/Guangzhou Powecom Labor Insurance Supplies KN95 Mask
TO BUY: POWECOM/GUANGZHOU POWECOM LABOR INSURANCE SUPPLIES KN95 MASK, $7 (WAS $12) FOR 10; BONEFIDEMASKS.COM
This KN95 mask has a seal of approval from the FDA and thousands of shoppers alike. Along with an adjustable nose piece, the protective mask features ear loops that are comfortable enough to wear for hours at a time. It's made from five layers of soft and breathable materials that block more than 95% of particles. Even better, the mask's packaging comes with an anti-counterfeit sticker for added verification.

https://bonafidemasks.com/
POWECOM KN95
Bona Fide Masks® is designated by Guangzhou Powecom Labor Insurance Supplies Co., Ltd., the manufacturer of our KN95 respirator mask, as their largest authorized distributor of Powecom products in the United States. All of our Powecom KN95 respirators manufactured after May 20th come affixed with anti-fake stickers that allow the end user to verify authenticity.

You may have heard that the FDA recently revoked Emergency Use Authorizations (EUA) for KN95 masks, which are manufactured to Chinese standards. While KN95s are no longer authorized for healthcare workers given the abundant supply of N95 respirators, they are still appropriate for consumer use, and the Powecom KN95 efficacy (BFE) has tested similar to NIOSH approved N95s. The Powecom KN95 is of the highest quality.

[XCR-700]

I agree that you need to carefully screen anything you get from China, not just masks, but let’s not exaggerate things to much.

COVID is rarely transmitted through “packages”. So let’s not start making falsehoods of infected Chinese workers sending out infected masks. That’s just flat out wrong in so many ways. Even if infected COVID would not survive that long.

COVID is primarily transmitted through air borne particles.

Like wise masks stop the spread TWO ways. They help protect you from inhaling particles that are suspended around you. That’s actually pretty hard to do without a really good mask. More importantly they reduce how much an infected person spews out. That is much easier to “reduce”. To completely eliminate it, is quite hard. A lot of testing that’s done is filling a space with something and seeing how much can get past the mask. So even cheap crappy masks probably reduce how much gets spewed out. Because 99% masks out there are not tight fitting. And even a good mask can be used poorly.

Here is some more info on it.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavirus-transmission-overview#2-6

Sorry you read something into my post that was not there, I never said COVID infected, I said infected.

I have read reports were workers in foreign plants making masks that were intended to be sold to the US, were identified as having various communicable diseases. Some shipments have been caught and destroyed, but given the volume being shipped and the all the places making them, it is not possible to stop them all.

Will the viruses/bacteria survive from the plant to the US to the end user, no clue, but its not worth the chance.

Overall my bigger concern is the unregulated materials and chemicals they can be made from and exposed to.

Most people dont realize how many items shipped from overseas are treated to prevent bugs and rats from eating them, and we then use/wear/bandage ourselves with things coated in chemicals not intended to be in contact with humans.

Least we not forget it was China that was well documented for putting plastic powder in baby formula that killed countless thousands of their own infants!

Then there was dissolved newspaper/cardboard dissolved with acid to make inexpensive filler for pork buns sold to tourists. People quickly forgot about that one because one TV reporter made a fake video of it because it was easier than catching people in the act. So we somehow forgot it was a real thing being practiced widely. Funny how one falsified event can help cover up a huge scandal.

Point being, A - no exaggeration by me, an accidental over read by you, and B - beware any foreign products and especially from 3rd world countries and countries where we are not on the best terms with.

And not to derail this subject, but take a moment to look up the total BS going on with "virgin" olive oil. Again, beware what you think you are being sold,,, AND DONT buy or use masks from china or other 3rd world counties and be careful of even the ones that say made in America, you may end up worse off than not using a mask at all.

[XCR-700]

7 KN95 Masks for COVID-19 Protection That You Can Buy Online
They can all be found on the FDA’s Emergency Use Authorization list.
By Rebecca Carhart Updated June 01, 2021
Each product we feature has been independently selected and reviewed by our editorial team.

https://www.health.com/mind-body/grief-after-9-11-covid

Stocking up on PPE has become the norm over the last year. While it's a little more straightforward to find a pair of safety glasses that offer protection and hand sanitizer that meets the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's recommendation of using a formula with 60 to 95% alcohol concentration, when it comes to choosing a face mask, the choices can feel overwhelming. N95 masks are still the gold standard, but since the CDC recommends saving them for healthcare workers, many people have turned to the Chinese equivalent, KN95 masks, instead.

According to Julie Chen, MD, an integrative medicine physician who is board-certified in internal medicine, that's because these masks are made from "multiple layers of material that block 95 percent of 0.3 micron particles. Coronavirus is even smaller, at 0.1 microns, but are typically bound to something larger (like droplets), so it's purported to be 95 percent protective."

While KN95 masks may provide a high level of protection, there are a few things to consider when shopping for one. Only a few Chinese manufacturers have been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for emergency use, so if you choose to wear one of these masks, be sure to select an option from this list. Plus, you should also be aware there are many counterfeit KN95 masks being sold online, so it's important to do some research before buying any.

Here are seven FDA-approved KN95 masks that you can buy:

Newmark/Jinhua Jiadaifu Medical Supplies Co KN95 Mask
Boncare/Guangdong Zhizhen Biological Medicine Co Ltd. KN95 Mask
Miuphro/Chengde Technology Co. KN95 Mask
Vida/Guangzhou Nan Qi Xing KN95 Mask
Wwdoll/Chengde Technology Co. KN95 Mask
Maskc KN95 Mask
Powecom/Guangzhou Powecom Labor Insurance Supplies KN95 Mask

I've used this one:
Powecom/Guangzhou Powecom Labor Insurance Supplies KN95 Mask
TO BUY: POWECOM/GUANGZHOU POWECOM LABOR INSURANCE SUPPLIES KN95 MASK, $7 (WAS $12) FOR 10; BONEFIDEMASKS.COM
This KN95 mask has a seal of approval from the FDA and thousands of shoppers alike. Along with an adjustable nose piece, the protective mask features ear loops that are comfortable enough to wear for hours at a time. It's made from five layers of soft and breathable materials that block more than 95% of particles. Even better, the mask's packaging comes with an anti-counterfeit sticker for added verification.

https://bonafidemasks.com/
POWECOM KN95
Bona Fide Masks® is designated by Guangzhou Powecom Labor Insurance Supplies Co., Ltd., the manufacturer of our KN95 respirator mask, as their largest authorized distributor of Powecom products in the United States. All of our Powecom KN95 respirators manufactured after May 20th come affixed with anti-fake stickers that allow the end user to verify authenticity.

You may have heard that the FDA recently revoked Emergency Use Authorizations (EUA) for KN95 masks, which are manufactured to Chinese standards. While KN95s are no longer authorized for healthcare workers given the abundant supply of N95 respirators, they are still appropriate for consumer use, and the Powecom KN95 efficacy (BFE) has tested similar to NIOSH approved N95s. The Powecom KN95 is of the highest quality.

No way I'm buying this stuff, it says Made in China in big letters!

Just because it tells you all the facts about N95 and says certified on it doesnt make it so.

Who ensured it was the legit? Do some research and see how many fake N95 and 3M and such products out there. Not worth the risk, make your own out of Tee shirts first, but NOTHING from China.

Good luck with that,,,

[SailinAway]

Cotton masks have recently been found to be the LEAST effective of all masks. As thebix stated, the FDA maintains a list of approved and "authentic" KN95 masks. The "K" designates made in China. One of the companies on the list is Powecom.

Why use KN95 masks? Because they're essentially the same as N95 masks (95% or greater filtration of particles larger than 0.3 microns in diameter) but much cheaper. They have a snugger fit on the face than the blue surgical masks. However, the source of KN95 masks needs to be verified because some copies don't contain the materials they claim to have.

See, for example, the KN95 masks produced in China by Powecom for Bona Fide masks in Mount Vernon, NY. Bona Fide is an offshoot of a company called Ball Chain Mfg. (A ball chain is the chain used to turn on lights etc.) The company was formed in response to the shortage of masks for hospital workers in New York in 2020. The important thing here is that Bona Fide gets its masks directly from the Chinese manufacturer so the source can be authenticated. You can read their statement on the authenticity of the masks at https://bonafidemasks.com/content/Authenticity%20Statement.pdf. Powecom and the supplier Bona Fide were also listed by the New York times in an review of authentic versus unauthentic masks.

You can buy Powecom masks directly from Bona Fide at https://bonafidemasks.com/Powecom-kn-95/?attributes=eyIyMTMiOjEwOTh9. They cost $8.30 for 10 masks. This is a trustworthy company. I purchased from them and received the masks in a couple of days. If you call them, you get a live person. I found these masks very hot but apparently they're now made differently to increase breathability.

How do you know the Powecom masks you get are authentic? There is a coated sticker on the package. You scrape off the coating to reveal a serial number and you check the serial number online at Powecom. See Powecom at http://powecom.com/about.html

[John Mercier]

He is pointing out that though an N95 and KN95 mask that passes testing are virtually identical, many KN95 masks have been shown not to meet the requirement due to faulty quality control.

Several outlets across the political spectrum reported on this.

[XCR-700]

Cotton masks have recently been found to be the LEAST effective of all masks. As thebix stated, the FDA maintains a list of approved and "authentic" KN95 masks. The "K" designates made in China. One of the companies on the list is Powecom.

Why use KN95 masks? Because they're essentially the same as N95 masks (95% or greater filtration of particles larger than 0.3 microns in diameter) but much cheaper. They have a snugger fit on the face than the blue surgical masks. However, the source of KN95 masks needs to be verified because some copies don't contain the materials they claim to have.

See, for example, the KN95 masks produced in China by Powecom for Bona Fide masks in Mount Vernon, NY. Bona Fide is an offshoot of a company called Ball Chain Mfg. (A ball chain is the chain used to turn on lights etc.) The company was formed in response to the shortage of masks for hospital workers in New York in 2020. The important thing here is that Bona Fide gets its masks directly from the Chinese manufacturer so the source can be authenticated. You can read their statement on the authenticity of the masks at https://bonafidemasks.com/content/Authenticity%20Statement.pdf. Powecom and the supplier Bona Fide were also listed by the New York times in an review of authentic versus unauthentic masks.

You can buy Powecom masks directly from Bona Fide at https://bonafidemasks.com/Powecom-kn-95/?attributes=eyIyMTMiOjEwOTh9. They cost $8.30 for 10 masks. This is a trustworthy company. I purchased from them and received the masks in a couple of days. If you call them, you get a live person. I found these masks very hot but apparently they're now made differently to increase breathability.

How do you know the Powecom masks you get are authentic? There is a coated sticker on the package. You scrape off the coating to reveal a serial number and you check the serial number online at Powecom. See Powecom at http://powecom.com/about.html

How quickly we forget,,,

These are the people that sent you the virus.

Buy American, you might live longer!

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fleetfarm.com%2Fimages%2Fprod uct%2F0000000352122%2Fx%2F4.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

[mswlogo]

Sorry you read something into my post that was not there, I never said COVID infected, I said infected.

I have read reports were workers in foreign plants making masks that were intended to be sold to the US, were identified as having various communicable diseases. Some shipments have been caught and destroyed, but given the volume being shipped and the all the places making them, it is not possible to stop them all.

Will the viruses/bacteria survive from the plant to the US to the end user, no clue, but its not worth the chance.

Overall my bigger concern is the unregulated materials and chemicals they can be made from and exposed to.

Most people dont realize how many items shipped from overseas are treated to prevent bugs and rats from eating them, and we then use/wear/bandage ourselves with things coated in chemicals not intended to be in contact with humans.

Least we not forget it was China that was well documented for putting plastic powder in baby formula that killed countless thousands of their own infants!

Then there was dissolved newspaper/cardboard dissolved with acid to make inexpensive filler for pork buns sold to tourists. People quickly forgot about that one because one TV reporter made a fake video of it because it was easier than catching people in the act. So we somehow forgot it was a real thing being practiced widely. Funny how one falsified event can help cover up a huge scandal.

Point being, A - no exaggeration by me, an accidental over read by you, and B - beware any foreign products and especially from 3rd world countries and countries where we are not on the best terms with.

And not to derail this subject, but take a moment to look up the total BS going on with "virgin" olive oil. Again, beware what you think you are being sold,,, AND DONT buy or use masks from china or other 3rd world counties and be careful of even the ones that say made in America, you may end up worse off than not using a mask at all.

Come on, how else is one to interpret “packed by infected workers” to mean in a thread discussing protecting against COVID.

If you want rephrase it to other diseases fine. But don’t be so surprise I interpreted it as I did. You seem to be very detailed oriented and left that minor ambiguity out.

[XCR-700]

Come on, how else is one to interpret “packed by infected workers” to mean in a thread discussing protecting against COVID.

If you want rephrase it to other diseases fine. But don’t be so surprise I interpreted it as I did. You seem to be very detailed oriented and left that minor ambiguity out.

You can read anything you want in to it, but thats not what I wrote, it was intended to be generic.

At this point almost everyone should know that COVID doesnt live on surfaces very long, its been in the news for a year. Thats why no one is wearing gloves any more, and they are not selling like masks.

Other bacteria and viruses I have no idea how long any specific one lives, only that some last a long time. I am just passing along what I have read.

I personally am avoiding anything made in china that I can, but thats not so easy these days. But breath through masks mad in china to no particular standards and from whatever they want to make them from, no chance. I would take my chances with COVID first. The COVID death numbers are dropping to super low levels so I am far less concerned about that than whatever chinese masks might give me.

Have you read any of the new concerns about polyester fabrics impact on the environment? The most common material in chinese masks! Early speculation is that it may be the next asbestos. "If" that turns out to be true (and there is some really troubling theories and evidence) just then imagine the potential impact to hundreds of millions of people from wearing cheap polyester chinese masks all day. Its a frightening thought.

Believe what you want, ignore what you want.

[Winnisquamer]

Come on, how else is one to interpret “packed by infected workers” to mean in a thread discussing protecting against COVID.

If you want rephrase it to other diseases fine. But don’t be so surprise I interpreted it as I did. You seem to be very brainwashed and left that minor ambiguity out.

Fixed it for you.

[XCR-700]

Fixed it for you.

Ha thats funny, and you are licking the boxes of chinese goods coming over because they are our good friends and so trustworthy, but probably wearing double masks around people who are not coughing or showing any other signs of being ill.

The level of koolaid consumption by some people is fascinating. Hope it serves you well ;-)

LATEST NH COVID Death Numbers: Sept 16 = 0, Seven Day Avg = 2

[WinnisquamZ]

Spent the last few days at Concord Hospital, they require you to use one of their supplied masks. They hand them out at the door


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[Newbiesaukee]

Although I do have misgivings about Chinese masks and it is a legitimate concern; absent any real evaluation of the risk of the Chinese masks vs the risk of using relatively ineffective cotton masks or no masks, I'd go with Chinese.

There is much about China, its business practices and its government to be concerned about. At this point, we are, as a nation, stuck with them.

I do use and choose an American made N95 (non-medical) mask.

OTOH, it is really impossible to just "Buy American" and the irony is that many, if not most, of the products we use daily, from refrigerators to electronic equipment (including medical) are either entirely made in China or include Chinese components. And yes, they do steal our technology.

Having a discussion need not include untrue inflammatory comments.

And I don't drink KoolAid.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Fixed it for you.

Speaking of brainwashed....how anyone can believe anything that comes out of Fraud-Ouchy's mouth is beyond my comprehension.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/16/anthony-fauci-dismissed-masks-2019-paranoid-tool/

[thinkxingu]

Speaking of brainwashed....how anyone can believe anything that comes out of Fraud-Ouchy's mouth is beyond my comprehension.



https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/16/anthony-fauci-dismissed-masks-2019-paranoid-tool/We have shown over and over how your "evidence" is consistently and clearly debunked. Using Breitbart, we don't even need to look at it.

If we do look at it, however, we'll find science. Specifically, that early on we weren't entirely sure how Covid spread and, therefore, made best guesses based on available data. That's how the "don't touch boxes for a while because it could be spread through surfaces" theory developed.

Fast forward almost two years, and SCIENCE has figured out many things, among them that masks work and vaccinated people are much, much, much less likely to be affected negatively by Covid.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[SailinAway]

He is pointing out that though an N95 and KN95 mask that passes testing are virtually identical, many KN95 masks have been shown not to meet the requirement due to faulty quality control.

Several outlets across the political spectrum reported on this.

This is true. I read somewhere (New York Times, I think) that 60% of KN95 masks are fake, meaning not made by the claimed manufacturer, hence the standards and materials are unknown. I would not by a Powecom mask on Amazon for that reason. I would only buy it from Bona Fide.

[Seaplane Pilot]

We have shown over and over how your "evidence" is consistently and clearly debunked. Using Breitbart, we don't even need to look at it.

If we do look at it, however, we'll find science. Specifically, that early on we weren't entirely sure how Covid spread and, therefore, made best guesses based on available data. That's how the "don't touch boxes for a while because it could be spread through surfaces" theory developed.

Fast forward almost two years, and SCIENCE has figured out many things, among them that masks work and vaccinated people are much, much, much less likely to be affected negatively by Covid.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Fauchi’s own words. But debunk away. I would expect nothing less.

[SailinAway]

Masks stop the spread TWO ways. . . . More importantly they reduce how much an infected person spews out.

This is true and I should have mentioned this in my original post. You wear a mask to protect yourself AND other people.

At this point 60% of Americans are vaccinated and that number doesn't seem to want to budge. This means that we won't reach herd immunity and this virus and its variants could be with us for a long time. I'm no longer waiting for the pandemic to end. I'm assuming that this is normal life for the next long stretch.

Over the last 5 years or so we saw the rift in this country get deeper and wider. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of talk now about how to bring Americans back together, the way we were during World War II, for example. At this point in the U.S., the pandemic is no longer a problem of medicine or technology, since we have the medical solution to it and an abundant supply of vaccines. It's primarily a problem of human behavior. The behavior won't change until enough people agree on the common goal of ending the pandemic. That's not the case right now---40% of people have some other priority besides ending the pandemic---so there's not much hope of ending it in the coming years.

Assuming that we need a yearly vaccination, we will be fighting the same battle every year, trying to convince people to get vaccinated. They're not going to do that until there's a big shift in the underlying causes of the social rift, which are very deep. Vaccination resistance is only the tip of the iceberg of deeply held beliefs and feelings. The ideological rift is probably going to make stopping the climate crisis impossible also, because the problem of human behavior went way beyond the ability of science and technology to stop climate change. I hope I'm wrong, but I feel pessimistic about our ability to solve these major threats to our existence.

[thinkxingu]

Fauchi’s own words. But debunk away. I would expect nothing less.Yes, his own words in the context of what we knew then.

You realize that guidance will, and should, change as more is learned? Like, how science works?!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Paugus Bay Resident]

^^^^ plus PPE was in very short supply and was being diverted to first responders as priority over the general public.

[XCR-700]

This is true. I read somewhere (New York Times, I think) that 60% of KN95 masks are fake, meaning not made by the claimed manufacturer, hence the standards and materials are unknown. I would not by a Powecom mask on Amazon for that reason. I would only buy it from Bona Fide.

At this point I almost thing AMAZON knowingly contributes to the problem.

They have become a critical component to surviving the pandemic and yet they are a loathsome organization and much of whats wrong with America today.

[XCR-700]

This is yet another thread that makes for interesting reading if nothing else.

I personally believe anyone who tells me they are wearing a mask to protect me is either crazy or lying.

Some of you folks spew verminous hostility that would make a cobra run for cover and you direct it toward anyone who simply holds a different opinion than yours or disagrees with you, and yet you tell each other you are wearing masks to protect the other guy.

Really,,, how benevolent of you,,,

Now all of a sudden we have great concern for our fellow man.

Not likely.

Just read the anger in these posts. Some here are on the edge of verbal violence and assault, and somehow these same people also embody tremendous concern for their fellow mans health. Well try softening your tone to reduce their stress level, that will help them live longer than wearing any chinese 10 cent mask.

Should we also expect that you same folks will soon also be carrying a guns to protect us from the public health epidemic of violence in America (the presidents words) Not too likely, nor would most want you to.

I personally have ZERO expectation for you to wear mask when you feel fine so that you can protect me, please dont do it on my behalf, and the same for carrying a gun. I'll take care of my own protection from the virus and violent criminals.

The notion you are wearing a mask to protect others is simply feel good hype from people who dont even believe the vaccine they took will protect them, so we created this to convince the other guy wear a mask to appease your fears.

Kinda laughable, kinda disgusting, mostly shameful when you think about it.

Treat your peers here with a bit more kindness and we will be better off than any mask wearing you might be doing for the other guy.

[joey2665]

This is yet another thread that makes for interesting reading if nothing else.

I personally believe anyone who tells me they are wearing a mask to protect me is either crazy or lying.

Some of you folks spew verminous hostility that would make a cobra run for cover and you direct it toward anyone who simply holds a different opinion than yours or disagrees with you, and yet you tell each other you are wearing masks to protect the other guy.

Really,,, how benevolent of you,,,

Now all of a sudden we have great concern for our fellow man.

Not likely.

Just read the anger in these posts. Some here are on the edge of verbal violence and assault, and somehow these same people also embody tremendous concern for their fellow mans health. Well try softening your tone to reduce their stress level, that will help them live longer than wearing any chinese 10 cent mask.

Should we also expect that you same folks will soon also be carrying a guns to protect us from the public health epidemic of violence in America (the presidents words) Not too likely, nor would most want you to.

I personally have ZERO expectation for you to wear mask when you feel fine so that you can protect me, please dont do it on my behalf, and the same for carrying a gun. I'll take care of my own protection from the virus and violent criminals.

The notion you are wearing a mask to protect others is simply feel good hype from people who dont even believe the vaccine they took will protect them, so we created this to convince the other guy wear a mask to appease your fears.

Kinda laughable, kinda disgusting, mostly shameful when you think about it.

Treat your peers here with a bit more kindness and we will be better off than any mask wearing you might be doing for the other guy.

Very well said. I’ll worry about mine and my families health and protection.


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[XCR-700]

Very well said. I’ll worry about mine and my families health and protection.


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This I can respect!

But I can also respect someone flat out telling me; I wear a mask and got vaccinated and continue to remain socially distant because I have a tremendous fear based on what I see all over the news.

Just dont tell me your doing it for me, and then haze me or someone else for disagreeing with your belief. That carries no credibility.

[FlyingScot]

Spent the last few days at Concord Hospital, they require you to use one of their supplied masks. They hand them out at the door


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Exactly. They do this because a number of people, such as XCR, think they are better than actual experts at choosing masks. As we know, experts may not be perfect, but they have a much better chance of being right than randos

[Garcia]

This is yet another thread that makes for interesting reading if nothing else.

I personally believe anyone who tells me they are wearing a mask to protect me is either crazy or lying.

Some of you folks spew verminous hostility that would make a cobra run for cover and you direct it toward anyone who simply holds a different opinion than yours or disagrees with you, and yet you tell each other you are wearing masks to protect the other guy.

Really,,, how benevolent of you,,,

Now all of a sudden we have great concern for our fellow man.

Not likely.

Just read the anger in these posts. Some here are on the edge of verbal violence and assault, and somehow these same people also embody tremendous concern for their fellow mans health. Well try softening your tone to reduce their stress level, that will help them live longer than wearing any chinese 10 cent mask.

Should we also expect that you same folks will soon also be carrying a guns to protect us from the public health epidemic of violence in America (the presidents words) Not too likely, nor would most want you to.

I personally have ZERO expectation for you to wear mask when you feel fine so that you can protect me, please dont do it on my behalf, and the same for carrying a gun. I'll take care of my own protection from the virus and violent criminals.

The notion you are wearing a mask to protect others is simply feel good hype from people who dont even believe the vaccine they took will protect them, so we created this to convince the other guy wear a mask to appease your fears.

Kinda laughable, kinda disgusting, mostly shameful when you think about it.

Treat your peers here with a bit more kindness and we will be better off than any mask wearing you might be doing for the other guy.

I don't spew hatred and I wear a mask for others. And, I am not crazy nor am I lying.

[XCR-700]

Exactly. They do this because a number of people, such as XCR, think they are better than actual experts at choosing masks. As we know, experts may not be perfect, but they have a much better chance of being right than randos

NO, No, no, XCR prefers/chooses no masks. He only wears them in actual locations of high risk or where required, and almost NEVER where not needed like when in his own car, in the boat, out anywhere in the open.

No problem attending the events in Laconia this summer, walking the boardwalk with thousands of people during the bike week events was a great time. Never even got a sniffle.

LATEST NH COVID Death Numbers: Sept 16 = 0, Seven Day Avg = 2

Now on a train in Boston or maybe walking through Chelsea or Dorchester, maybe yes, but elsewhere, mostly not needed and mostly not used where not required.

High vaccination rates, lots of natural immunity, medical providers who now know how to treat COVID = I'm far more likely to be verbally assaulted by one of our chinese mask experts here who is intolerant of any differing opinions. AND WAY more at risk of being lambasted for saying super noodles are far superior to regular noodles, with or without a belt!

[WinnisquamZ]

https://apnews.com/article/fda-panel-rejects-widespread-pfizer-booster-shots-1cd1cf6a5c5c02b63f8a7324807a59f1


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[XCR-700]

I don't spew hatred and I wear a mask for others. And, I am not crazy nor am I lying.

Hummm, if you actually have to say it, isnt that an inverse or reverse version of Catch 22???

A true classic that so mimics real life, that I sometimes think Washington does all it does based on old movie scripts.

The current pandemic, was probably lifted from the X-Files movie and series. They sure did a great job of copying a lot of the elements from the movie. Now if we could only get to Wilkes Land to that snowcat and bring it back to Winnipesaukee for the winter,,,

Oh sorry what were saying, something about crazy, Yup must be for disagreeing with any opinions here, as its no longer tolerated in America, we cancel people for disagreeing. Dont we???

;-)

[XCR-700]

https://apnews.com/article/fda-panel-rejects-widespread-pfizer-booster-shots-1cd1cf6a5c5c02b63f8a7324807a59f1


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Finally a common sense action, I shudder to think of what will come next.

[FlyingScot]

NO, No, no, XCR prefers/chooses no masks. He only wears them in actual locations of high risk or where required, and almost NEVER where not needed like when in his own car, in the boat, out anywhere in the open.



Maybe you missed the post I replied to? Hospitals--high risk places-- often require that people wear a hospital-supplied mask because they know that people like you (and I) are not qualified to identify good masks.

There are no experts who accept unrated all cotton masks such as the ones you posted. People should buy N95, KN95, or KF94 masks; and make sure they fit snugly

[XCR-700]

Maybe you missed the post I replied to? Hospitals--high risk places-- often require that people wear a hospital-supplied mask because they know that people like you (and I) are not qualified to identify good masks.

There are no experts who accept unrated all cotton masks such as the ones you posted. People should buy N95, KN95, or KF94 masks; and make sure they fit snugly

Well I dont work in a medical environment and/or around sick people, so I dont feel the need for N95 level protection, its overkill as far as I am concerned.

Most of the time when "I" wear a mask its because I am required to, and they either supply specific masks (like at the doctors office/hospital), or I wear the cotton mask, as I am far more concerned about inhaling off-gassing chemicals - polyester fibers or whatever else might come off a synthetic chinese mask, than I am of COVID.

Sorry, as a COVID survivor I do not live in terror of infection. I will tell you it is absolutely not something you want, but I also will tell you do not live in fear of it. I act as is its an extended flu season. Wash my hands often, avoid tightly packed crowds indoors indoors, and avoid anyone coughing. Otherwise my routine is mostly unchanged from pre-COVID.

If you feel better taking extra precautions, so be it. You need to act to protect yourself as you believe is necessary.

We all have different things we worry about. I worry much more about driving tiny cars than COVID, so my daily driver is a 7000 LB truck that only averages 14 - 15 MPG. I worry more about the side effects of my medications than the ailments they are treating. I worry more about paying my bills and making sure my kids are well supported financially than my job killing me (which it probably is from stress,,,) I worry more about sharing information I believe people should know than some people responding like jackasses to me for having a different opinion.

We can agree to disagree and I am not bothered up to the point where people get personal or hostile, then I probably respond badly.

Do I have flaws and make mistakes, YUP, maybe even more than the average guy. But I believe what I say and I say it because I think it needs to be said, not to intentionally attack someone. Well at least it doesnt start that way. Like others, I too often respond in kind when I should ignore some people.

But thats ok, as I fully expect to burn in hell. I am working on memorizing Bbq Gargoyle recipes and I already know I want the 3 prong pitchfork. I expect to see a lot of people there and plan on jabbing a few in the backside. And should I be lucky enough to land in purgatory I will make the best of that as well, I got a few folks I want to haunt the hell out of ;-)

Sorry, got side-tracked practicing for Halloween.

ATB

[SailinAway]

I personally believe anyone who tells me they are wearing a mask to protect me is either crazy or lying. . . . I personally have ZERO expectation for you to wear mask when you feel fine so that you can protect me. . . . The notion you are wearing a mask to protect others is simply feel good hype.

Here's a simple analogy. If I'm not mistaken, you offered me advice about my roof. I assume you did that because you wanted to help me. Why would I not have the same heartfelt concern for you?

The science says that even though I'm vaccinated, and even if I have no visible symptoms, I can be a Covid carrier without knowing it. Spreading a serious disease to another person when I could prevent that goes against all of my personal and social values. If I did that and you got sick and possibly died, I wouldn't only be hurting you. I would be hurting everyone who cares about you and people who depend on you (your children, employer, coworkers, friends, etc.). There would be a financial cost of your illness and death. I don't want to be the cause of such harm.

You know, people do sincere altruistic things all the time. I bet even you would stop to help an injured dog by the side of the road. We often see people's selfish exterior, but I think that altruism is just as innate in people. It's even innate in animals---just look for "animals helping animals" on YouTube. I think the reason for this is that when you strip away politics, religion, etc., you realize that we all belong to the same human species and we're all in this together. Sure it's about feeling good. Looking out for others does make you feel good.

[FlyingScot]

Looking out for others does make you feel good.

Agreed. Two other points missed above about wearing masks to protect others:

We have plenty of data now that show it does indeed protect others, it is not wishful thinking or hype.

If a community has rules that require mask wearing so that everyone is "protecting others"--then everyone is protected by everyone else. So there is a quid pro quo involved, it is not ONLY being a nice guy

[mswlogo]

This is yet another thread that makes for interesting reading if nothing else.

I personally believe anyone who tells me they are wearing a mask to protect me is either crazy or lying.

Some of you folks spew verminous hostility that would make a cobra run for cover and you direct it toward anyone who simply holds a different opinion than yours or disagrees with you, and yet you tell each other you are wearing masks to protect the other guy.

Really,,, how benevolent of you,,,

Now all of a sudden we have great concern for our fellow man.

Not likely.

Just read the anger in these posts. Some here are on the edge of verbal violence and assault, and somehow these same people also embody tremendous concern for their fellow mans health. Well try softening your tone to reduce their stress level, that will help them live longer than wearing any chinese 10 cent mask.

Should we also expect that you same folks will soon also be carrying a guns to protect us from the public health epidemic of violence in America (the presidents words) Not too likely, nor would most want you to.

I personally have ZERO expectation for you to wear mask when you feel fine so that you can protect me, please dont do it on my behalf, and the same for carrying a gun. I'll take care of my own protection from the virus and violent criminals.

The notion you are wearing a mask to protect others is simply feel good hype from people who dont even believe the vaccine they took will protect them, so we created this to convince the other guy wear a mask to appease your fears.

Kinda laughable, kinda disgusting, mostly shameful when you think about it.

Treat your peers here with a bit more kindness and we will be better off than any mask wearing you might be doing for the other guy.

Well if I could cherry pick, maybe I might skip you (joking). But if you get COVID from me, then you give it to someone else. Then who you gave it to might give it my sister.

I got vaccinated, wear a mask, still limit my exposure for the community in general, especially health care workers that are the real soldiers here, for the economy, for COVID to be over with ASAP, my family and for myself.

Honestly, I think your post is delusional. Maybe you should get tested because COVID can cause delusional thinking. If not delusional, really kinda sad people think like you are. Like it's some master plan to get you or so they feel good, really? Get a grip man.

Obviously vaccines are not 100% nor are masks. If masks reduces my getting it 1% or reduces passing it to someone else 1% that's fine by me. And today if folks don't wear a mask I don't get that upset even though I prefer they would in any closed places. And for the most part a lot are. At least the places I frequent do.

[John Mercier]

He reminds me of Mike Sylvia.

[BillJohn]

The notion you are wearing a mask to protect others is simply feel good hype from people who dont even believe the vaccine they took will protect them, so we created this to convince the other guy wear a mask to appease your fears.

Kinda laughable, kinda disgusting, mostly shameful when you think about it.

Treat your peers here with a bit more kindness and we will be better off than any mask wearing you might be doing for the other guy.

People should wear masks to protect themselves and others. Just because you do not care if you get covid does not mean you somehow have the right to infect others. The ignorance that has been on display from the very start of the pandemic is stunning. Wear a mask, protect yourself, and if you do not care about your own health then at least protect the people around you. Grow up!

[SailinAway]

Let's say your priorities in the pandemic are one or more of the following:

To end the pandemic as soon as possible
To not die of Covid
To not lose anyone close to me to Covid
To be free to do what I want, when I want, where I want
To not have the government force me to do something I don't want to do
To not have to wear a mask
To not have to get vaccinated
To get businesses fully open as soon as possible
To not get sick
To restore the economy
To not be inconvenienced
To not make anyone else sick
To follow the beliefs of my political party and its leader
To get all the kids back in school
To not have to work at home anymore
To not be exposed to unmasked, unvaccinated sick people
To get the whole country vaccinated
To not lose my job
Etc


Here's the problem: You can't have everything on that list at once. So you choose your priorities, realizing that when you choose certain things, other things aren't going to be possible. If freedom is my top priority and I won't budge on that, then I'll be giving up everything on the above list except for freedoms. You can't be 100% free and end the pandemic quickly, restore the economy, get kids back in school, keep your job, not get sick, avoid dying, and not lose anyone close to you to Covid. If protecting everyone and ending the pandemic as quickly as possible is your priority, you will be giving up the freedom to whatever you want, when you want it, without government interference.

We each have to make this choice individually, but the pandemic is not going to end until most of decide we really want it to end. If you make freedom your top priority, you're saying in effect, "Ending the pandemic quickly, restoring the economy, and saving lives are not my top priorities." I would just ask you to imagine how you personally are going to be affected if this pandemic goes on for years because not enough people want to end it. There's no way you will be able to hang onto the life you had before the pandemic, unless you live off the grid and are 100% self-sufficient.

You make trade-offs and sacrifices every day of your life. You obey the speed limit so you don't end up in jail. You pay your property taxes so the town doesn't seize your house. You may feel resentful of those things you're forced to do, but you have the good sense to realize that the payoff for doing them is worth it. You don't let your emotions overrule your intelligence.

It's the same with the pandemic: it's a simple, rational calculation of sacrifices versus benefits. Sure, we all have strong emotions about the pandemic and we all resent it, but it's rational thinking that's going to get us where we ALL want to go: an end to the virus, fully reopening businesses, and no more restrictions on what we can do in public.

[John Mercier]

I don't think it is all the pandemic.
It may have started around that time, but I think a lot of it is the surge into our area and the refusal to bend to the greater good even a little bit.

[fatlazyless]

Not sure if this is the correct thread for this message?

If you are age-65 or older and immuno-compromised then the CVS Pharmacy all across New Hampshire have available appointment time slots for a third vaccination shot, plus you can get a flu shot as well, in the same visit.

I don't know but it's my guess they do the covid shot into one arm, and do the flu shot into the other arm?

If interested go to www.cvs.com/coronavirus to schedule an appointment.

[fatlazyless]

Yesterday, Sunday, at 1-pm it only took ten minutes, in and out the door, at the Plymouth CVS to get the Pjizer #3 shot into the left shoulder arm, and the flu shot into the right shoulder arm ..... have two small band aids .... using the CVS on-line appointment process.

At 5-pm I went swimming in the huge 35-meter, outdoor, 70-degree swim pool at the www.wmacwv.com and did 24-laps ...... my best number of laps so far alternating brest stroke and side stroke .... 24-laps ..... all powered up with two CVS vaccinations at the same time ..... administered by a CVS pharmacist. .... :D

[XCR-700]

Agreed. Two other points missed above about wearing masks to protect others:

We have plenty of data now that show it does indeed protect others, it is not wishful thinking or hype.

If a community has rules that require mask wearing so that everyone is "protecting others"--then everyone is protected by everyone else. So there is a quid pro quo involved, it is not ONLY being a nice guy

And yet the overwhelming majority of people peal off their masks just as soon as they sit down at a table in a restaurant (when they are open or you can find a seat) so there is clearly no protection of others going on there and either no concern for the science, or probably closer to the truth, no belief in what the media and politicians and experts are telling us.

Same for when people exit any store with a mask requirement, they majority cant make it several steps before tearing the mask off.

Then when you take a look around you outside, I see only a tiny fraction of the population wearing masks outside,,,

Most only wear masks because its required and as a society Americans mostly follow the rules. But clearly there is either a limit to what people will do, or what they will believe.

Either way the majority of the public are not wearing masks to protect someone else, its either to protect themselves or in most cases it is simply because they are required to in certain locations.

If in this forum we have a greater proportion of benevolent and caring people, fantastic. But please excuse me if I remain a bit skeptical in the motives of people who will savagely trash anyone with a differing opinion and who dares say so. The too common hypocrisy is unconvincing.

So again, a little kindness is probably far more useful to our society than any mask wearing by the few, and when you do wear a mask, the risk from wearing untested chinese masks is probably far greater than the benefit from wearing USA made all cotton masks. If you the members of this forum disagree, ok, but show your benevolence by practicing what you preach about caring for others and not responding like omniscient jackasses and we will all get along and simply agree to disagree.

Well we will see how long that can last,,,

[BillJohn]

And yet the overwhelming majority of people peal off their masks just as soon as they sit down at a table in a restaurant (when they are open or you can find a seat) so there is clearly no protection of others going on there and either no concern for the science, or probably closer to the truth, no belief in what the media and politicians and experts are telling us.

Same for when people exit any store with a mask requirement, they majority cant make it several steps before tearing the mask off.

Then when you take a look around you outside, I see only a tiny fraction of the population wearing masks outside,,,

Most only wear masks because its required and as a society Americans mostly follow the rules. But clearly there is either a limit to what people will do, or what they will believe.

Either way the majority of the public are not wearing masks to protect someone else, its either to protect themselves or in most cases it is simply because they are required to in certain locations.

If in this forum we have a greater proportion of benevolent and caring people, fantastic. But please excuse me if I remain a bit skeptical in the motives of people who will savagely trash anyone with a differing opinion and who dares say so. The too common hypocrisy is unconvincing.

So again, a little kindness is probably far more useful to our society than any mask wearing by the few, and when you do wear a mask, the risk from wearing untested chinese masks is probably far greater than the benefit from wearing USA made all cotton masks. If you the members of this forum disagree, ok, but show your benevolence by practicing what you preach about caring for others and not responding like omniscient jackasses and we will all get along and simply agree to disagree.

Well we will see how long that can last,,,

People can disagree on issues that are not fact based. For example, you could argue that the world is flat....but factually that is untrue. So, if you argued the world was flat that would make you uneducated or foolish. You could argue that masks are not protecting people but you cannot argue the science that shows they are helping. Because that is a fact and therefore not an opinion. Arguing a fact would make you....???

[WinnisquamZ]

One who argues with someone who says the world is flat is the fool. The one says it is just wrong


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[XCR-700]

One who argues with someone who says the world is flat is the fool. The one says it is just wrong


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We will see who is wrong and who is right on a laundry list of alleged "truths"

One only needs look back over time and see all the truths we were told, for example; DDT is safe to be fogged in massive quantities on young children, Agent Orange is non-toxic and safe for our troops, Thalidomide that was given out like aspirin to pregnant woman for nausea and caused countless thousands of children to be born with horrible birth defects, Tylenol that is still pushed by the entire medical industry over aspirin but that destroys your liver if taken too long or in too great a quantity, morphine which is still given to children with modest injuries as the first pain killer, OxyContin and Fentanyl which caused record breaking drug addictions in average Americans, Vaping which was billed as safer than smoking! Do I really need to continue. Probably not, because if you are closed minded on the matter, and not open to any other positions than "look at the data" and the "experts say", then there is little point,,,

I simply hope you are as comfortable with your positions and selections as I am with mine.

ATB

[XCR-700]

People should wear masks to protect themselves and others. Just because you do not care if you get covid does not mean you somehow have the right to infect others. The ignorance that has been on display from the very start of the pandemic is stunning. Wear a mask, protect yourself, and if you do not care about your own health then at least protect the people around you. Grow up!

And there you have THE textbook example of closed minded and intolerant of differing opinions by an omniscient truth seeer, and spewing hostile responses no less. Pretty much just what I expect from the folks who stand on the soapbox and proclaim only their vision is correct.

Nice job, clearly that will go a long way to convince me to follow your kind and considerate ways to see the wisdom of your visions.

Sorry, I still disagree, hope you are not too disappointed.

[fatlazyless]

Was expecting someone to ask if I used a 30" swim noodle foam belt for swimming the 24-laps in the outdoor pool .......... and the answer is NO ..... no noodle needed for pool swim safety for me.

The swim noodle belt is best for rough, deep, cold, big lake water swimming as opposed to swimming a heated swim pool.

Thank-you for not asking about the noodle belt. ...... :laugh: ...... now go the heck to the nearest CVS and get yourself vaccinated ...... hut-hut-hut! ... :coolsm:

The price is free ...... no charge ..... paid by my/your Uncle Sam ...... my type of price ...... is why I keep going back to CVS ..... three times ..... May, June, and now September ...... hut-hut-hut!

Get yourself vaccinated or go to beautiful Berlin NH ..... www.nh.gov/nhdoc/facilities/berlin.html ....
state prison amoung the many many trees, up there ..... population-562, July 1, 2020 ..... and then get vaccinated in the prison.

[John Mercier]

They are providing the booster without any CDC/FDA approval?
Or is there something I am missing?

I know some of the companies that are trying to recruit me have asked whether I have the first two, and if a masking policy is a deterrent to me... but no one has brought up a third dose as of yet.

[XCR-700]

Let's say your priorities in the pandemic are one or more of the following:

To end the pandemic as soon as possible
To not die of Covid
To not lose anyone close to me to Covid
To be free to do what I want, when I want, where I want
To not have the government force me to do something I don't want to do
To not have to wear a mask
To not have to get vaccinated
To get businesses fully open as soon as possible
To not get sick
To restore the economy
To not be inconvenienced
To not make anyone else sick
To follow the beliefs of my political party and its leader
To get all the kids back in school
To not have to work at home anymore
To not be exposed to unmasked, unvaccinated sick people
To get the whole country vaccinated
To not lose my job
Etc


Here's the problem: You can't have everything on that list at once. So you choose your priorities, realizing that when you choose certain things, other things aren't going to be possible. If freedom is my top priority and I won't budge on that, then I'll be giving up everything on the above list except for freedoms. You can't be 100% free and end the pandemic quickly, restore the economy, get kids back in school, keep your job, not get sick, avoid dying, and not lose anyone close to you to Covid. If protecting everyone and ending the pandemic as quickly as possible is your priority, you will be giving up the freedom to whatever you want, when you want it, without government interference.

We each have to make this choice individually, but the pandemic is not going to end until most of decide we really want it to end. If you make freedom your top priority, you're saying in effect, "Ending the pandemic quickly, restoring the economy, and saving lives are not my top priorities." I would just ask you to imagine how you personally are going to be affected if this pandemic goes on for years because not enough people want to end it. There's no way you will be able to hang onto the life you had before the pandemic, unless you live off the grid and are 100% self-sufficient.

You make trade-offs and sacrifices every day of your life. You obey the speed limit so you don't end up in jail. You pay your property taxes so the town doesn't seize your house. You may feel resentful of those things you're forced to do, but you have the good sense to realize that the payoff for doing them is worth it. You don't let your emotions overrule your intelligence.

It's the same with the pandemic: it's a simple, rational calculation of sacrifices versus benefits. Sure, we all have strong emotions about the pandemic and we all resent it, but it's rational thinking that's going to get us where we ALL want to go: an end to the virus, fully reopening businesses, and no more restrictions on what we can do in public.

While I genuinely appreciate your efforts here, but I think we just see too many things too differently to come to agreement on this matter.

I feel like your conclusions are wrong and too many of the items you cite are what you have been told, but that they are not actually reality.

From my seat I feel like many others in that the "pandemic" should be reduced to some lower level concern. The term pandemic has been hijacked and is now a political term used for political and other purposes, but no longer applicable given the number of people who have been vaccinated and/or contracted COVID and have immunity, plus we now know so much more about how to treat infected patients that the death rate is greatly improved.

I guess my biggest disagreement is that most of what you cite on your list and reference as being contingent on vaccination and mask wearing, I believe that this is a false premise.

I expect COVID will continue to be a problem for an indefinite period like influenza. Some will continue to be sickened and die and as a whole we will be best served by the more exposure we all get to it and then build natural immunity against it. Now mind you exposure does not mean infection and infection does not mean hospitalization and hospitalization does not mean ICU and being in the ICU does not mean you will die. And in the overwhelming majority of COVID cases, people didnt even know they had it.

As a COVID survivor I was not quite so fortunate as most people, but I must confess to that of all the people I know and the hundreds of people I work with, I only know one person that was hospitalized and he said he really didnt need to be, they just did it as a precaution. And I dont know a single person that has died of COVID.

So for me I see no need to panic, I see no need for kids not to be in school and without masks, I see no need to wear masks in most places ( a few, but not many) I see no need to buy chinese masks, and I see no need to fight about all this.

If you wish to stay glued to the media and worry about it, I feel bad for you, I would say ignore it and live, but thats your choice.

But please dont impose your fears and conditions on me. Protect yourself, I'll do the same where I feel necessary, and if I believe I am at risk of exposing anyone else because I am sick or I know that I came into contact with someone else that was sick, I will quarantine. But what I wont do is live the remaining time I have in fear and take every possible precaution to reduce my exposure to near zero. I dont believe that is how our ecosystem works or our biology works best, and I dont see the impact/benefit ratio value to such actions.

Remember it was the most knowledgeable scientific minds that said the world was flat and it took a naysayer to prove they were wrong, and it was the best scientific minds that said bloodletting was the best cure for whatever medical problem you had and it took naysayers to show simple things like soap and water were better treatments, and it was the best engineering minds that said we could not make it to the moon and it took naysayers to show you that you could sit on top of a Saturn V and survive the trip.

So please consider that all the media and the politicians and the experts of today might say may not be 100% correct. But in the end make the choice you can live with and respect the other persons god given right to do the same and we will all get along fine.

ATB

[Seaplane Pilot]

And there you have THE textbook example of closed minded and intolerant of differing opinions by an omniscient truth seeer, and spewing hostile responses no less. Pretty much just what I expect from the folks who stand on the soapbox and proclaim only their vision is correct.

Nice job, clearly that will go a long way to convince me to follow your kind and considerate ways to see the wisdom of your visions.

Sorry, I still disagree, hope you are not too disappointed.

You have hit on one of the fundamental reasons that people are pushing back. The hypocrisy from those that are pushing mandates, pushing vaccines and putting hard working Americans out of business and their jobs is over the top. As I've said before, not one of these "authorities" has lost a single dime as a result of all this BS they are pushing on others. How about the fact that Congress is exempt from the vaccines, just like they were not forced into the bogus Obamacare program that they forced on everyone else? Enough is enough. Here's a perfect example of said hypocrisy:

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2021/09/19/viewers-rage-at-maskless-emmys-but-kids-have-to-wear-a-mask-to-school-what-the-fk/

(I'll start the countdown for the reply that since this story is from Breitbart, it must be debunked in 3, 2, 1....:rolleye1:)

[XCR-700]

Was expecting someone to ask if I used a 30" swim noodle foam belt for swimming the 24-laps in the outdoor pool .......... and the answer is NO ..... no noodle needed for pool swim safety for me.

The swim noodle belt is best for rough, deep, cold, big lake water swimming as opposed to swimming a heated swim pool.

Thank-you for not asking about the noodle belt. ...... :laugh: ...... now go the heck to the nearest CVS and get yourself vaccinated ...... hut-hut-hut! ... :coolsm:

The price is free ...... no charge ..... paid by my/your Uncle Sam ...... my type of price ...... is why I keep going back to CVS ..... three times ..... May, June, and now September ...... hut-hut-hut!

Get yourself vaccinated or go to beautiful Berlin NH ..... www.nh.gov/nhdoc/facilities/berlin.html ....
state prison amoung the many many trees, up there ..... population-562, July 1, 2020 ..... and then get vaccinated in the prison.

Well we now know the promises that the vaccine stops the virus 95+ percent of the time is not true, and many well need boosters unless they build natural immunity, BUT it sounds like in the vaccine you have found a fountain of youth! Maybe regular boosters could cure other things as well, only time will tell. Its not the first time unexpected benefits or other uses have been discovered.

As for the noodle, I can only guess you are somewhat more svelte individual than I am, otherwise you would be making a stronger and more specific pitch for the super noodle. I find standard noodles insufficient for my ~215LB 5'11" frame, but then I have a buoyancy problem from youth. As a kid I could swim out say 20' from shore and sink to the bottom and walk back out like the monster from the black lagoon. I was a great novelty for the other kids,,,

So for me its super noodle or nothing. I always keep several at the house.

[XCR-700]

You have hit on one of the fundamental reasons that people are pushing back. The hypocrisy from those that are pushing mandates, pushing vaccines and putting hard working Americans out of business and their jobs is over the top. As I've said before, not one of these "authorities" has lost a single dime as a result of all this BS they are pushing on others. How about the fact that Congress is exempt from the vaccines, just like they were not forced into the bogus Obamacare program that they forced on everyone else? Enough is enough. Here's a perfect example of said hypocrisy:

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2021/09/19/viewers-rage-at-maskless-emmys-but-kids-have-to-wear-a-mask-to-school-what-the-fk/

(I'll start the countdown for the reply that since this story is from Breitbart, it must be debunked in 3, 2, 1....:rolleye1:)

Havent read whats on the link yet, but I am in agreement of all you said.

ATB

[FlyingScot]

We will see who is wrong and who is right on a laundry list of alleged "truths"

One only needs look back over time and see all the truths we were told, for example; DDT is safe to be fogged in massive quantities on young children, Agent Orange is non-toxic and safe for our troops, Thalidomide that was given out like aspirin to pregnant woman for nausea and caused countless thousands of children to be born with horrible birth defects, Tylenol that is still pushed by the entire medical industry over aspirin but that destroys your liver if taken too long or in too great a quantity, morphine which is still given to children with modest injuries as the first pain killer, OxyContin and Fentanyl which caused record breaking drug addictions in average Americans, Vaping which was billed as safer than smoking! Do I really need to continue. Probably not, because if you are closed minded on the matter, and not open to any other positions than "look at the data" and the "experts say", then there is little point,,,

I simply hope you are as comfortable with your positions and selections as I am with mine.

ATB

Some of these are very good reminders that the experts are not perfect (though FDA saved us from Thalidomide). But that does not mean that the experts and data have no value, or that various quacks and governors have a better plan than our public health experts and infectious disease scientists/physicians.

I'm sure you understand this. But it is dangerous when examples like this are used in a way that causes some people to believe that something like ivermectin is a better bet than a covid shot.

[thinkxingu]

You have hit on one of the fundamental reasons that people are pushing back. The hypocrisy from those that are pushing mandates, pushing vaccines and putting hard working Americans out of business and their jobs is over the top. As I've said before, not one of these "authorities" has lost a single dime as a result of all this BS they are pushing on others. How about the fact that Congress is exempt from the vaccines, just like they were not forced into the bogus Obamacare program that they forced on everyone else? Enough is enough. Here's a perfect example of said hypocrisy:

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2021/09/19/viewers-rage-at-maskless-emmys-but-kids-have-to-wear-a-mask-to-school-what-the-fk/

(I'll start the countdown for the reply that since this story is from Breitbart, it must be debunked in 3, 2, 1....:rolleye1:)Not debunked, in this case, just a false equivalency:

"As Breitbart New [sic] reported, Emmy organizers mandated all attendees to test negative for COVID-19 and prove they have been vaccinated."

Can we do that in schools? What's the hypocrisy?

If 100% of my students and faculty were vaccinated AND tested negative, we...well, we wouldn't even have a pandemic!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[John Mercier]

You have hit on one of the fundamental reasons that people are pushing back. The hypocrisy from those that are pushing mandates, pushing vaccines and putting hard working Americans out of business and their jobs is over the top. As I've said before, not one of these "authorities" has lost a single dime as a result of all this BS they are pushing on others. How about the fact that Congress is exempt from the vaccines, just like they were not forced into the bogus Obamacare program that they forced on everyone else? Enough is enough. Here's a perfect example of said hypocrisy:

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2021/09/19/viewers-rage-at-maskless-emmys-but-kids-have-to-wear-a-mask-to-school-what-the-fk/

(I'll start the countdown for the reply that since this story is from Breitbart, it must be debunked in 3, 2, 1....:rolleye1:)The PPACA is covered under the Grassley Amendment.

[fatlazyless]

They are providing the booster without any CDC/FDA approval?
Or is there something I am missing?

I know some of the companies that are trying to recruit me have asked whether I have the first two, and if a masking policy is a deterrent to me... but no one has brought up a third dose as of yet.

I go getta my third Pfizer vaccine shot, yesterday, at the CVS in Plymouth. Was very easy to do. Pharmacist asked for my vaccination card and he included this new third shot. The first two also were doned at CVS-Plymouth.

Piece of cake ...... easy as pie ..... courtesy your Uncle Sam ...... if you are age-65, you can start at www.cvs.com/coronavirus to schedule an appointment. I was in and out of there in ten minutes, plus I got a flu vaccination in the other arm as well.

[John Mercier]

OK. That makes more sense... 65 and older.
I am too young for the booster.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Not debunked, in this case, just a false equivalency:

"As Breitbart New [sic] reported, Emmy organizers mandated all attendees to test negative for COVID-19 and prove they have been vaccinated."

Can we do that in schools? What's the hypocrisy?

If 100% of my students and faculty were vaccinated AND tested negative, we...well, we wouldn't even have a pandemic!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

What happened to “confirmation bias”? You woke guys know all the hip terms. I’m still hung up on”groovy”…

NH is only at 53% vaccination rate, and it’s not moving much from there. Live FREE or Die.

[thinkxingu]

What happened to “confirmation bias”? You woke guys know all the hip terms. I’m still hung up on”groovy”…

NH is only at 53% vaccination rate, and it’s not moving much from there. Live FREE or Die.I mean, SPP's acceptance of the article as an equal comparison is confirmation bias since it fit into his worldview. I chose, instead, to focus on how it wasn't hypocritical at all and, further, what schools would love to see.

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[John Mercier]

What happened to “confirmation bias”? You woke guys know all the hip terms. I’m still hung up on”groovy”…

NH is only at 53% vaccination rate, and it’s not moving much from there. Live FREE or Die.The State of NH dashboard states otherwise. And if they have had one dose, it is likely they will receive their second dose within a month and be added to the dashboard as fully vaccinated.

https://www.covid19.nh.gov/dashboard/vaccination

With local business experiencing more customers than they can handle, they can't afford any employee out sick for any reason even a single day... never mind several days of quarantine.
And with that much over demand, the businesses will also need to weed out customers... simply because they can't serve them all.

[TheTimeTraveler]

I go getta my third Pfizer vaccine shot, yesterday, at the CVS in Plymouth. Was very easy to do. Pharmacist asked for my vaccination card and he included this new third shot. The first two also were doned at CVS-Plymouth.

Piece of cake ...... easy as pie ..... courtesy your Uncle Sam ...... if you are age-65, you can start at www.cvs.com/coronavirus to schedule an appointment. I was in and out of there in ten minutes, plus I got a flu vaccination in the other arm as well.

Folks; It is VERY important that "if" you are getting the third Pfizer Vaccine Shot that you make an appointment.

Why? This Vaccine is stored in a special low temperature freezer and it needs time to thaw to prepare for use. It's possible you may luck out and have it when you randomly walk in but it is best to schedule it ahead of time by making a specific appointment.

I think the CDC is now recommending it for people who are immune compromised or over 65, but you may want to confirm this with your primary Doctor.

[FlyingScot]

You have hit on one of the fundamental reasons that people are pushing back. The hypocrisy from those that are pushing mandates, pushing vaccines and putting hard working Americans out of business and their jobs is over the top.

Except that you've been pushing back the entire time. In early 2020, when you liked the people in the White House and people were begging for vaccines to come, you asserted covid was no worse than the flu (or you at least "thanked" posts that did). Now 600,000 are dead, and you are still asserting we should be doing less to fight the disease, and still attacking those doing everything they can to slow the spread.

So let's not say you're pushing back because of mask mandates and vaccines. Let's just acknowledge that you're pushing back because even after 600,000 dead, you still think covid is still no big deal.

[XCR-700]

Some of these are very good reminders that the experts are not perfect (though FDA saved us from Thalidomide). But that does not mean that the experts and data have no value, or that various quacks and governors have a better plan than our public health experts and infectious disease scientists/physicians.

I'm sure you understand this. But it is dangerous when examples like this are used in a way that causes some people to believe that something like ivermectin is a better bet than a covid shot.

Agreed for the most part, but as I said nothing about any kook politician or anything about ivermectin I cant and will not take credit OR blame for any such interpretation.

As for Thalidomide, well maybe they have saved us, but it was only after tremendous and incalculable and unspeakable damage was done.

I dont tell anyone not to get a vaccine or not wear a mask if they want to (except chinese masks), but I also dont think they are "THE" solution either, they are simply part of a process and part of a solution. How big and important a role they play, well it will take years to honestly know that.

And with regard to data, how any person may use the data can be totally different than the next person seeing the data, and I 100% guarantee you that media and politicians will us it in yet other ways and mostly NOT for the good of the general public, or maybe better stated, if their purposes produce a public benefit, its mostly by accident.

So beware data, its only a tool. In the hands of a good backyard mechanic, tools can fix something a certified mechanic would scrap, and in the hands of a true master mechanic they can fix what the backyard mechanic cannot even understand. Most things in between are hack jobs, and so it is with data. Just remember how many times they looked at the data and were ready to crucify Sullenberger & Skiles,,, They beat that data to death again and again and again, and then there was an epiphany, and low and behold they realize the 155 people onboard flight 1549 were only alive because of the amazing actions by these 2 men that were being roasted alive for their previously characterized as error in judgement.

What it all tells me is that I must review what it said by the news, the politicians, the experts, my doctors, my friends, and whomever I feel necessary and make my own decision, but NOT follow the common consensus like a sheep being lead to slaughter.

Your decisions will be based on who you trust, and I simply advocate you stop and assess the common message and challenge it for a moment. If you are still in agreement, thats the best you can do. But too often for me, the message sounds off and the numbers dont add up, and sometimes the cure can be worse than the aliment. But from personal experience I have mixed feelings having had some problems with the "cure" in the past. The pneumonia vaccine was fine, but the shingles vaccine was down right awful. Tetanus shots are usually not good and the same for flu shots. I still get the tetanus booster, but not the flu shot anymore. As for the COVID shots/boosters, not sold on them just yet as a requirement for all, as a COVID survivor with lingering problems, I can honestly say sorry the verdict is not yet final for me. Not ready to agree with the necessity to mandate them for everyone just yet and at the moment, I seem to be less and less supportive of it as a requirement vs a personal choice. And a personal choice with no discrimination against the unvaccinated tolerated, just like the flu vaccine. I personally will not sit and see attacks against those who chose whats best for themselves in this complex matter.

ATB

[gillygirl]

Agreed for the most part, but as I said nothing about any kook politician or anything about ivermectin I cant and will not take credit OR blame for any such interpretation.

As for Thalidomide, well maybe they have saved us, but it was only after tremendous and incalculable and unspeakable damage was done.

I dont tell anyone not to get a vaccine or not wear a mask if they want to (except chinese masks), but I also dont think they are "THE" solution either, they are simply part of a process and part of a solution. How big and important a role they play, well it will take years to honestly know that.

And with regard to data, how any person may use the data can be totally different than the next person seeing the data, and I 100% guarantee you that media and politicians will us it in yet other ways and mostly NOT for the good of the general public, or maybe better stated, if their purposes produce a public benefit, its mostly by accident.

So beware data, its only a tool. In the hands of a good backyard mechanic, tools can fix something a certified mechanic would scrap, and in the hands of a true master mechanic they can fix what the backyard mechanic cannot even understand. Most things in between are hack jobs, and so it is with data. Just remember how many times they looked at the data and were ready to crucify Sullenberger & Skiles,,, They beat that data to death again and again and again, and then there was an epiphany, and low and behold they realize the 155 people onboard flight 1549 were only alive because of the amazing actions by these 2 men that were being roasted alive for their previously characterized as error in judgement.

What it all tells me is that I must review what it said by the news, the politicians, the experts, my doctors, my friends, and whomever I feel necessary and make my own decision, but NOT follow the common consensus like a sheep being lead to slaughter.

Your decisions will be based on who you trust, and I simply advocate you stop and assess the common message and challenge it for a moment. If you are still in agreement, thats the best you can do. But too often for me, the message sounds off and the numbers dont add up, and sometimes the cure can be worse than the aliment. But from personal experience I have mixed feelings having had some problems with the "cure" in the past. The pneumonia vaccine was fine, but the shingles vaccine was down right awful. Tetanus shots are usually not good and the same for flu shots. I still get the tetanus booster, but not the flu shot anymore. As for the COVID shots/boosters, not sold on them just yet as a requirement for all, as a COVID survivor with lingering problems, I can honestly say sorry the verdict is not yet final for me. Not ready to agree with the necessity to mandate them for everyone just yet and at the moment, I seem to be less and less supportive of it as a requirement vs a personal choice. And a personal choice with no discrimination against the unvaccinated tolerated, just like the flu vaccine. I personally will not sit and see attacks against those who chose whats best for themselves in this complex matter.

ATBYou need to talk to people in places where they’ve ignored the prescribed procedures. I’m back in FL now. A bartender where I frequent did not get vaccinated because she didn’t want to be told what to do. That’s the response of a child. She got Covid. She would redo what she did in the past, after being knocked on her butt for 3 weeks, and still struggling with long-term after effects. All of this is not about individual freedoms. You are a part of a society and need to act as such. The Terminator was right…people in this country need to take a civics course to understand how their individual decisions affect the greater populace. I reiterate…YOU ARE A PART OF A SOCIETY.


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[John Mercier]

So lets say that I chose to never engage a customer that did not have a complete vaccine card. Would that be me making a choice? Or would that be an attack against the unvaccinated?

[XCR-700]

So lets say that I chose to never engage a customer that did not have a complete vaccine card. Would that be me making a choice? Or would that be an attack against the unvaccinated?

Interesting that you pick such a battle ground and to such an extreme, when never before did we decide how to treat people based on their vaccination status.

For things far worse than COVID, we have never had such levels of discrimination rear its ugly head.

And now that you know that the vaccine does not provide the levels of protection they initially claimed it did, why are we hanging our hat on a vaccination card.

Why because politicians set this battle up for god only knows what nefarious reasons.

Whats next, send the unvaccinated to Molokaʻi to live with the Lepers?

Sterilization like they did to downs patients?

Beating up people in the streets like they did to HIV/AIDS patients.

Is this the kind of society you really want to live in,,,

Even now there are very legitimate questions being raised about the actual impact of COVID ( https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/19/sharyl_attkisson_serious_questions_about_the_way_c ovid_deaths_have_been_counted.html ) and the answers are not good.

So then are you really that guy?

And if so why, because NH had one official COVID death today and a 7 day average of 2 COVID deaths. Doesnt quite seem sufficient to warrant such a panic as to discriminate against someone for not getting vaccinated.

Its all just a bit too divisive for me. If this is really who some of you are, I was mistaken about who I thought was participating on this forum.

Certainly not the kind of people who claim to be wearing masks to protect others,,,

Maybe its time to start thinking about this in different terms, rather than the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.

or maybe not,,,

[XCR-700]

YOU ARE A PART OF A SOCIETY.


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Agreed, and in society you respect others choices!

So for the greater good should we be banishing gays and lesbians, because of such narrow minded perspectives.

Should we cast out the poor and old.

Should woman be stripped of all the rights they have fought so hard for, just so that for the greater good of society we can have things the way a select few of omniscient people think they should be.

I think you have this notion of a society backwards.

Choosing not to get vaccinated is not like walking around with dirty infected needles and intentionally stabbing people, its making a difficult choice about what you believe is best to protect yourself.

Would you have the national guard driving down the streets of America with cases of needles dragging people out of their homes and forcibly vaccinating them?

Where does this madness end.

This is utterly horrifying to see devolving into such a mess.

I hope we survive these narrow minded perspectives of dictating how people must live their lives. Life is already short enough and difficult enough without someone else telling you what medical choices you must make about your body to make them feel comfortable.

[mswlogo]

While I genuinely appreciate your efforts here, but I think we just see too many things too differently to come to agreement on this matter.

I feel like your conclusions are wrong and too many of the items you cite are what you have been told, but that they are not actually reality.

From my seat I feel like many others in that the "pandemic" should be reduced to some lower level concern. The term pandemic has been hijacked and is now a political term used for political and other purposes, but no longer applicable given the number of people who have been vaccinated and/or contracted COVID and have immunity, plus we now know so much more about how to treat infected patients that the death rate is greatly improved.

I guess my biggest disagreement is that most of what you cite on your list and reference as being contingent on vaccination and mask wearing, I believe that this is a false premise.

I expect COVID will continue to be a problem for an indefinite period like influenza. Some will continue to be sickened and die and as a whole we will be best served by the more exposure we all get to it and then build natural immunity against it. Now mind you exposure does not mean infection and infection does not mean hospitalization and hospitalization does not mean ICU and being in the ICU does not mean you will die. And in the overwhelming majority of COVID cases, people didnt even know they had it.

As a COVID survivor I was not quite so fortunate as most people, but I must confess to that of all the people I know and the hundreds of people I work with, I only know one person that was hospitalized and he said he really didnt need to be, they just did it as a precaution. And I dont know a single person that has died of COVID.

So for me I see no need to panic, I see no need for kids not to be in school and without masks, I see no need to wear masks in most places ( a few, but not many) I see no need to buy chinese masks, and I see no need to fight about all this.

If you wish to stay glued to the media and worry about it, I feel bad for you, I would say ignore it and live, but thats your choice.

But please dont impose your fears and conditions on me. Protect yourself, I'll do the same where I feel necessary, and if I believe I am at risk of exposing anyone else because I am sick or I know that I came into contact with someone else that was sick, I will quarantine. But what I wont do is live the remaining time I have in fear and take every possible precaution to reduce my exposure to near zero. I dont believe that is how our ecosystem works or our biology works best, and I dont see the impact/benefit ratio value to such actions.

Remember it was the most knowledgeable scientific minds that said the world was flat and it took a naysayer to prove they were wrong, and it was the best scientific minds that said bloodletting was the best cure for whatever medical problem you had and it took naysayers to show simple things like soap and water were better treatments, and it was the best engineering minds that said we could not make it to the moon and it took naysayers to show you that you could sit on top of a Saturn V and survive the trip.

So please consider that all the media and the politicians and the experts of today might say may not be 100% correct. But in the end make the choice you can live with and respect the other persons god given right to do the same and we will all get along fine.

ATB

Did you know there is a strong correlation of the more educated you are the more likely to get vaccinated?

Same goes for wearing masks.

https://news.usc.edu/182848/education-covid-19-vaccine-safety-risks-usc-study/

So it kind of all makes sense. They just don’t know any better.

[John Mercier]

Interesting that you pick such a battle ground and to such an extreme, when never before did we decide how to treat people based on their vaccination status.

For things far worse than COVID, we have never had such levels of discrimination rear its ugly head.

And now that you know that the vaccine does not provide the levels of protection they initially claimed it did, why are we hanging our hat on a vaccination card.

Why because politicians set this battle up for god only knows what nefarious reasons.

Whats next, send the unvaccinated to Molokaʻi to live with the Lepers?

Sterilization like they did to downs patients?

Beating up people in the streets like they did to HIV/AIDS patients.

Is this the kind of society you really want to live in,,,

Even now there are very legitimate questions being raised about the actual impact of COVID ( https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/19/sharyl_attkisson_serious_questions_about_the_way_c ovid_deaths_have_been_counted.html ) and the answers are not good.

So then are you really that guy?

And if so why, because NH had one official COVID death today and a 7 day average of 2 COVID deaths. Doesnt quite seem sufficient to warrant such a panic as to discriminate against someone for not getting vaccinated.

Its all just a bit too divisive for me. If this is really who some of you are, I was mistaken about who I thought was participating on this forum.

Certainly not the kind of people who claim to be wearing masks to protect others,,,

Maybe its time to start thinking about this in different terms, rather than the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.

or maybe not,,,I didn't. You did. You have determined that one person can make a choice, but the other is not allowed.
We could do it for anything. If a customer chooses to wear a hat, and I choose not to serve customers wearing hats... is that an attack against people that wear hats?

Or is it there choice and the other party needs to refrain?

You keep bringing up protected classes... but these aren't protected classes of people.

In my particular case, I don't ask anyone, because I generally only deal with customers through e*mails and phone communications. The outside salespeople deal directly with the contractors and homeowners, and I only rarely see them when they have an appointment. I might catch them now and again if the salesperson is doing something intricate and needs my assistance to complete it.

But even with direct contact, I am never in close proximity to a customer for any length of time.

So a validation of vaccination would be pointless.

Maybe everyone will go back to wearing a mask... but will the unvaccinated really like that option either?

And you keep bringing up deaths... which is really not the most prominent issue. It is the loss of limited employee hours. That is the most tenuous issue we are currently dealing with.

[XCR-700]

Did you know there is a strong correlation of the more educated you are the more likely to get vaccinated?

Same goes for wearing masks.

https://news.usc.edu/182848/education-covid-19-vaccine-safety-risks-usc-study/

So it kind of all makes sense. They just don’t know any better.

Well I suppose thats telling that this is what anyone is concerned about.

And when the educated need something repaired and all they can find is uneducated non-vaccinated tradesman I wonder how that will go,,,

With the current trends for everyones kids to go to college and work in offices, I see lots of opportunity for the uneducated non-vaccinated tradesman to make lots of money in the future ;-)

You might have uncovered a true golden nugget.

[BillJohn]

Maybe Covid and the response to it is just part of evolution as the stupid people get removed from the earth. I had a friends who argued that Covid was a political hoax staged by the democrats. He then laughed at the idiots who wore masks. When the vaccines came out he staunchly opposed them. When he caught Covid he told people it was a joke because he felt fine...UNTIL he didn't feel fine. By then it was too late for the antibody treatment but he would not have done that anyway.

He becomes so sick he goes to the hospital and is on oxygen for 2 weeks then he placed on a ventilator for 2 weeks. Finally he is place on an ECMO machine but Covid finally won and he died. He was 43 years old and left a young boy without a Dad. He was a very, very kind and generous soul but his stupidity not Covid killed him. My heart goes out to him and his family but he made his choice, which he was free to do because his opinion was Covid was a joke. The joke was on him and he and his family paid the price.

People are free to argue and have uneducated opinions. But when those "opinions" risk infecting other people because they refuse to behave in a responsible way they become predators. I understand my post will not change a single thing because somehow people have lost the ability to critically think.

[XCR-700]

I didn't. You did. You have determined that one person can make a choice, but the other is not allowed.
We could do it for anything. If a customer chooses to wear a hat, and I choose not to serve customers wearing hats... is that an attack against people that wear hats?

Or is it there choice and the other party needs to refrain?

You keep bringing up protected classes... but these aren't protected classes of people.

In my particular case, I don't ask anyone, because I generally only deal with customers through e*mails and phone communications. The outside salespeople deal directly with the contractors and homeowners, and I only rarely see them when they have an appointment. I might catch them now and again if the salesperson is doing something intricate and needs my assistance to complete it.

But even with direct contact, I am never in close proximity to a customer for any length of time.

So a validation of vaccination would be pointless.

Maybe everyone will go back to wearing a mask... but will the unvaccinated really like that option either?

And you keep bringing up deaths... which is really not the most prominent issue. It is the loss of limited employee hours. That is the most tenuous issue we are currently dealing with.

Not sure how deaths is not the most prominent matter of concern,,, Clearly it rises above all else and hopefully the people who are clear of mind will see this is the benchmark of most concern in declaring a pandemic. Other considerations are important, but fall far behind deaths.

The loss of employee hours is a certainly a concern, but could also be looked at differently, it could open up opportunities for others.

As for you constant reasons to discriminate against the unvaccinated or the hat wearers, they need not be in a protected class to be discriminated against. And eventually you will find your equilibrium, you will have your customers, and the ones you turn away will find someone that is happy to have them and it will be as it has been for thousands or years where someone in the future will wonder how the world got so screwed up because people lived in fear of some matter that no longer exists. So if discriminating against any hat wearer makes you feel safe and happier, so be it. I'm not your morality monitor, you have to live your life and do what you can live with, and if that means living in the plastic bubble that is an option.

As a society we discriminate all the time, the banning of indoor smoking is a good example.

Whatever you decide own if, and if you think you are without prejudice, think again, I think prejudice and the desire to control others and even the like for conflict is programmed into the human DNA, you can try to fight it, hopefully most do, but it is there always nagging at us. Try to rise above it and be the best you can, but you will not beat it. Best you will do is a compromise of tolerance of what you dislike.

[XCR-700]

Maybe Covid and the response to it is just part of evolution as the stupid people get removed from the earth. I had a friends who argued that Covid was a political hoax staged by the democrats. He then laughed at the idiots who wore masks. When the vaccines came out he staunchly opposed them. When he caught Covid he told people it was a joke because he felt fine...UNTIL he didn't feel fine. By then it was too late for the antibody treatment but he would not have done that anyway.

He becomes so sick he goes to the hospital and is on oxygen for 2 weeks then he placed on a ventilator for 2 weeks. Finally he is place on an ECMO machine but Covid finally won and he died. He was 43 years old and left a young boy without a Dad. He was a very, very kind and generous soul but his stupidity not Covid killed him. My heart goes out to him and his family but he made his choice, which he was free to do because his opinion was Covid was a joke. The joke was on him and he and his family paid the price.

People are free to argue and have uneducated opinions. But when those "opinions" risk infecting other people because they refuse to behave in a responsible way they become predators. I understand my post will not change a single thing because somehow people have lost the ability to critically think.

A very tragic sad story, and the sad part is you remember your friend as "stupid" rather than respecting his decisions about how he chose to live his life. He choose free choice over fear, maybe it was a bad choice, but it was his to make and he did.

So would someone joining the military and going to war and then dies also be stupid? Maybe to some,,,

Remember your friend as "very, very kind and generous soul" not as a stupid person who had the "joke" turned on him and his family.

No one lives forever. If COVID didnt get him he may have lived to be 100 and died of old age, or he may have slipped and fallen and died yesterday in the bath tub or lost his footing climbing Mt Major and fallen to his death next year. Does how he died have to taint your memory of him so badly you really need to remember him as stupid,,,

Just something to think about.

Again so much hostility and anger and intolerance, and so so much fear.

Its really disheartening to se so many people so worked up over this.

Make your decision about what you need to do for yourself and let the other person do the same and then own it and live.

Life cannot stop over all this, and why should it? NH official COVID deaths yesterday 1 and a 7 day average of 2 COVID deaths.

[LoveLakeLife]

So people who choose not to get the vaccine are more likely to be uneducated, i.e. hicks, rubes, rednecks, s***kickers, overalls-wearing dolts? Such an elitist attitude. Remember that a lot of people from Massachusetts think the whole of the NH populace are just such people. Obviously both blanket conclusions are wrong.

Some people are educated beyond their intelligence. Lincoln, Truman, Gates, and Zuckerberg didn’t graduate college. We need the high school graduates to give jobs to the college graduates. [emoji3]


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[gillygirl]

Agreed, and in society you respect others choices!

So for the greater good should we be banishing gays and lesbians, because of such narrow minded perspectives.

Should we cast out the poor and old.

Should woman be stripped of all the rights they have fought so hard for, just so that for the greater good of society we can have things the way a select few of omniscient people think they should be.

I think you have this notion of a society backwards.

Choosing not to get vaccinated is not like walking around with dirty infected needles and intentionally stabbing people, its making a difficult choice about what you believe is best to protect yourself.

Would you have the national guard driving down the streets of America with cases of needles dragging people out of their homes and forcibly vaccinating them?

Where does this madness end.

This is utterly horrifying to see devolving into such a mess.

I hope we survive these narrow minded perspectives of dictating how people must live their lives. Life is already short enough and difficult enough without someone else telling you what medical choices you must make about your body to make them feel comfortable.

Flawed argument. Your sexuality, your age, your gender are not choices, but inherent to your being. Your thought process is flawed. Perhaps you should take a logic class and a civics class.


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[Garcia]

So people who choose not to get the vaccine are more likely to be uneducated, i.e. hicks, rubes, rednecks, s***kickers, overalls-wearing dolts? Such an elitist attitude. Remember that a lot of people from Massachusetts think the whole of the NH populace are just such people. Obviously both blanket conclusions are wrong.

Some people are educated beyond their intelligence. Lincoln, Truman, Gates, and Zuckerberg didn’t graduate college. We need the high school graduates to give jobs to the college graduates. [emoji3]


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Those with college degrees have a higher rate of vaccination than those that do not. I'm not passing judgment nor calling anyone names. I am from MA - but please don't make assumptions about me based on where I reside. Just like New Hampshire (and Maine) there are many different parts of the state. We don't all think alike.

[XCR-700]

Flawed argument. Your sexuality, your age, your gender are not choices, but inherent to your being. Your thought process is flawed. Perhaps you should take a logic class and a civics class.




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Or maybe I should not engage in conversations with closed minded, intolerant, authoritarian, and totalitarian minded people.

Well its one option ;-)

I suppose it comes down to perspective and values and rights.

Some will always value freedom of choice over safety and other concerns. And most of them will live with their mistakes to be sure they can continue being able to make independent decisions about matters they consider important.

Others will always seek the warm blanket of conformity. (Well usually right up to the point when it doesn't go their way,,,)

Then there are some people who will always just want it their way, and too bad for the other guy. And they will seek to impose their standards on others regardless if they practice such standards themselves,,,

Its a diverse world to say the least.

Its a shame some have such little respect for the other persons desire to make decisions about their health for themselves.

Its a shame so many live in such fear; NH official COVID deaths Sept 20 2021 = 1, and a 7 day average of 2.

[gillygirl]

Or maybe I should not engage in conversations with closed minded, intolerant, authoritarian, and totalitarian minded people.

Well its one option ;-)

I suppose it comes down to perspective and values and rights.

Some will always value freedom of choice over safety and other concerns. And most of them will live with their mistakes to be sure they can continue being able to make independent decisions about matters they consider important.

Others will always seek the warm blanket of conformity. (Well usually right up to the point when it doesn't go their way,,,)

Then there are some people who will always just want it their way, and too bad for the other guy. And they will seek to impose their standards on others regardless if they practice such standards themselves,,,

Its a diverse world to say the least.

Its a shame some have such little respect for the other persons desire to make decisions about their health for themselves.

Its a shame so many live in such fear; NH official COVID deaths Sept 20 2021 = 1, and a 7 day average of 2.

I have no problem with people making their own life choices when it doesn’t affect me. That’s not the case with this virus. Not sure why you think your freedom to choose supersedes my freedom to live virus free. Sounds pretty totalitarian to me.

You frequently insinuate that people who are concerned about the virus are living in fear. There is rational fear and irrational fear. Being concerned about a global pandemic is rational. Fearing that the National Guard is going to be deployed to drag people from their homes to be vaccinated is irrational.


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[Woodsy]

If a person has been vaxxed (as I have) why is there fear of the unvaxxed? Why is there a need to bully the unvaxxed? If they choose not to be vaxxed it has no bearing on my day to day life.

The vax is not a cure and thankfully they have switched the marketing to reflect that.

This is an engineered "gain of function" virus. It is not going anywhere... EVER! There will ALWAYS be some new variant from somewhere popping up.

Woodsy

[John Mercier]

Because most of the people are not dying.
We have some hospitalizations, which are much more costly than vaccination, and those will add to future health care costs through medical insurance; but for the most part we have several thousand in each surge that must quarantine and can not be available to work.

With the worker shortage, that places more pressure on the remaining.

Since we already can not service customers to their full expectations in the area, when we reduce the workforce for even a short period of time, the problem spirals.

Since we can not find more workers, and when we do it takes time to develop their skill sets, the only option is to limit customers by some means. Some businesses have done this with their schedule, others with other formats.
Some have done it well, others not so well.

From the threads here, the Meredith Subway was offering a lot more money per hour than the Meredith McDonald's. McDonald's is open, the Subway is closed. It could be more than labor troubles, but that seems to be the trend.

Of the 1458 deaths we've had in NH, approximately 132 have been since the vaccine has been widely available here. And none have been in those too young to qualify for the vaccine. Though we deeply regret those deaths, and can not determine from the State data how many may have been vaccinated, the latest surge in cases is really have more effect on that lost-time.

Vaccinated individuals that test positive are suggested that they mask for the quarantine period when in enclosed public buildings, but unvaccinated must isolate for the quarantine period.

So while the deaths are regretful and we mourn the loss, it isn't the largest impact currently. I carry a mask and put it on should a customer request it, I always try to maintain some distance, I wash/disinfect my hands repeatedly, and we have dramatically increased the air quality in the facility.

But every business is going to be ''discriminating'' on what customers it wants as long as the labor shortage exists.

For me, I am looking for the customers that see us as a partnership. But for others, that vaccine status/masking may be on their agenda.

[XCR-700]

I have no problem with people making their own life choices when it doesn’t affect me. That’s not the case with this virus. Not sure why you think your freedom to choose supersedes my freedom to live virus free. Sounds pretty totalitarian to me.

You frequently insinuate that people who are concerned about the virus are living in fear. There is rational fear and irrational fear. Being concerned about a global pandemic is rational. Fearing that the National Guard is going to be deployed to drag people from their homes to be vaccinated is irrational.


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Why do you assume that you, me or anyone will become infected, get sick and suffer, when only ~10% of the population has tested positive to COVID, and well less than 1 percent have died. How does this constitute a threat so sever that your fear of infection overrides anyone elses free choice of medical treatment.

Isnt that fear of some significant impact from COVID the irrational concern?

My desire to allow others to choose their medical treatment.

Now if you had a continuing situation like NY saw in the beginning where they needed refrigerated trailers to store the dead bodies, I would agree with your concerns, but we are so far from that today and really dont understand how we continue with most of the current COVID actions.

The best medicine is what mother nature provides, not what shot you and others decide someone else needs. Human are built to adapt and overcome. Its not an instant solution, but it does work when you let it. So in reality isnt reserving medical intervention to those who are seeking it, or when you truly reach an emergency situation the better choice???

After all, you are the one concerned and yet you have taken yourself to FLA where the infection rate is higher then NH. And to do what, demand your neighbors get vaccinated so you can feel comfortable around them? Sorry that strikes me as backwards logic.

[LoveLakeLife]

Gilly, no one in the history of man has lived virus-free.

Garcia, I agree with you completely. I’m from Mass. too.


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[gillygirl]

Why do you assume that you, me or anyone will become infected, get sick and suffer, when only ~10% of the population has tested positive to COVID, and well less than 1 percent have died. How does this constitute a threat so sever that your fear of infection overrides anyone elses free choice of medical treatment.

Isnt that fear of some significant impact from COVID the irrational concern?

My desire to allow others to choose their medical treatment.

Now if you had a continuing situation like NY saw in the beginning where they needed refrigerated trailers to store the dead bodies, I would agree with your concerns, but we are so far from that today and really dont understand how we continue with most of the current COVID actions.

The best medicine is what mother nature provides, not what shot you and others decide someone else needs. Human are built to adapt and overcome. Its not an instant solution, but it does work when you let it. So in reality isnt reserving medical intervention to those who are seeking it, or when you truly reach an emergency situation the better choice???

After all, you are the one concerned and yet you have taken yourself to FLA where the infection rate is higher then NH. And to do what, demand your neighbors get vaccinated so you can feel comfortable around them? Sorry that strikes me as backwards logic.

I’m really not worried about catching COVID because of the precautions I take, but I do worry for those who can’t get vaccinated. I worry what this is continuing to do to the economy. And I’m concerned at the lack of critical thinking by many in this country. My opinion, backed by science, is vaccination of more people will get us closer to normal faster.

Here in COVID Central, they brought in refrigerated trailers to store the bodies a few weeks ago, cancer treatments are being cancelled, and “elective surgeries” are being postponed. So by your standards, it is an emergency situation here.

You’re very good at assuming things about me just because I’m pro-vaccination. It’s what I hope people will do. If they’re civic-minded, they will. I demand nothing of my neighbors. It seems to me you’re the one demanding things.


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[gillygirl]

Gilly, no one in the history of man has lived virus-free.

Garcia, I agree with you completely. I’m from Mass. too.


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And where the hell did I ever say we have? God, the illogical leaps people make.


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[LoveLakeLife]

Lol it was just an oblique reference to your having referenced your freedom to live virus-free. I know what you meant, but there is no such freedom. Life must be lived.


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[XCR-700]

I’m really not worried about catching COVID because of the precautions I take, but I do worry for those who can’t get vaccinated. I worry what this is continuing to do to the economy. And I’m concerned at the lack of critical thinking by many in this country. My opinion, backed by science, is vaccination of more people will get us closer to normal faster.
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Good than we have no disagreement of concern, as I too am pro-vaccination, I simply believe its not "the" solution, its just part of a solution. And that the vaccines are not without their own problems, AND its every persons personal choice to get vaccinated or not. And finally that we should not discriminate against those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Is that really unreasonable? Well apparently for some. Glad you are not in the mandatory/forced vaccination advocacy group.

ATB

[gillygirl]

Good than we have no disagreement of concern, as I too am pro-vaccination, I simply believe its not "the" solution, its just part of a solution. And that the vaccines are not without their own problems, AND its every persons personal choice to get vaccinated or not. And finally that we should not discriminate against those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Is that really unreasonable? Well apparently for some. Glad you are not in the mandatory/forced vaccination advocacy group.

ATB

As long as people comply with requirements that private businesses might choose to enforce to keep their employees safe, I have no issue with people who choose to forego vaccination. I wish they would, but that’s where it stops.


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[WinnisquamZ]

What if every vaccinated individual wears a gold star on their lapel. That way like others can feel safe. You could even wave to each other like Harley rides do


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[XCR-700]

What if every vaccinated individual wears a gold star on their lapel. That way like others can feel safe. You could even wave to each other like Harley rides do


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Oh sorry, I'm not really a jewelry guy, my wedding band is safely locked away and I havent even had a wrist watch since we all got cell phones,,,

How about this as a way to commemorate their accomplishments, and encourage those who are still un-vaccinated, the people who are vaccinated could get a giant V tattooed on their forehead to proudly ID they status. And then with each booster they could circle the big V with little B's. Kinda like all the Hollywood and other cool people that get neck tattoos and such. It would make a bold statement.

Just a thought.

[John Mercier]

Good than we have no disagreement of concern, as I too am pro-vaccination, I simply believe its not "the" solution, its just part of a solution. And that the vaccines are not without their own problems, AND its every persons personal choice to get vaccinated or not. And finally that we should not discriminate against those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Is that really unreasonable? Well apparently for some. Glad you are not in the mandatory/forced vaccination advocacy group.

ATBYou keep suggesting that it is a choice to get vaccinated/wear a mask, but not a choice not to interact with those that are not vaccinated/wear a mask.
All parties have the choice.

[FlyingScot]

Good than we have no disagreement of concern, as I too am pro-vaccination, I simply believe its not "the" solution, its just part of a solution. And that the vaccines are not without their own problems, AND its every persons personal choice to get vaccinated or not. And finally that we should not discriminate against those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Is that really unreasonable? Well apparently for some. Glad you are not in the mandatory/forced vaccination advocacy group.

ATB

I do not think people should be bullied or ridiculed or forced. But I am exercising my freedom as a business owner to require all of our employees to be vaxxed. We are already at 100%, so it's easy for us to do. Lots of hiring coming up this year--we'll be telling the unvaxxed not to bother applying (in a kind way that does not violate the law)

[XCR-700]

You keep suggesting that it is a choice to get vaccinated/wear a mask, but not a choice not to interact with those that are not vaccinated/wear a mask.
All parties have the choice.

No idea what you are saying, I thought it was you who wanted no interaction with the unvaccinated.

I have ZERO interesting in knowing what anyone elses vaccination status is, they are all the same to me. I dont believe vaccinated people have not risk of infecting others and I think the risk from unvaccinated people who are not showing clear signs of infection also pose very little risk to me so I treat them all the same even when I do know their status.

If you are happy to have people make their own choice about vaccination and treat them with respect and dignity we are on the same page.

Sounds like a win/win for everyone. One can only hope,,,

[John Mercier]

Because you keep saying that the unvaccinated should not be discriminated against... which means that you do not believe those that are vaccinated have a choice... just the unvaccinated have that choice.

You're stating they should have a choice, but I shouldn't.
The world no longer works like that.

Employers listening to their employees have employees, those that do not listen do not.

Neither you or I get to determine that. We just know that now businesses are asking their employees to mask up to protect the unvaccinated.
Those employees feel forced to do something they don't want to do, because some else made the choice not to be vaccinated.

It is only going to get worse as the vaccine becomes available for the younger groups.

[XCR-700]

I do not think people should be bullied or ridiculed or forced. But I am exercising my freedom as a business owner to require all of our employees to be vaxxed. We are already at 100%, so it's easy for us to do. Lots of hiring coming up this year--we'll be telling the unvaxxed not to bother applying (in a kind way that does not violate the law)

I think that is a wholly unnecessary tragedy, and personally I probably would not apply somewhere like that nor would choose to shop there unless there are literally no other options (assuming its a retail business), but thats your choice.

I feel certain that the tragedy of the intentional fear mongering that you have been subjected to and that produces decisions like this will not fully understood for years.

Its like reliving the AIDS/HIV crisis all over again, and maybe worse as we should have learned that lesson. Its so disheartening to see this again. Maybe its just human nature to harbor such fear and practice such discrimination,,,

[XCR-700]

Because you keep saying that the unvaccinated should not be discriminated against... which means that you do not believe those that are vaccinated have a choice... just the unvaccinated have that choice.

You're stating they should have a choice, but I shouldn't.
The world no longer works like that.

Employers listening to their employees have employees, those that do not listen do not.

Neither you or I get to determine that. We just know that now businesses are asking their employees to mask up to protect the unvaccinated.
Those employees feel forced to do something they don't want to do, because some else made the choice not to be vaccinated.

It is only going to get worse as the vaccine becomes available for the younger groups.

Honestly I have no idea what you are saying.

Clearly we live on different planets.

You can go live in your plastic bubble anytime you want, no one is stopping you, you just cannot impose your will on others. What is so hard to figure out about that?

You cannot liken the unvaccinated's choice to not get the vaccine to your decision that they must have it. That makes no sense at all.

Its as if you think they are doing it intentionally to harm you, when all they are doing is trying to make the best decision for their health.

At the moment there is a huge underground concern being generated by woman who are considering having children and who are uncertain about the assurances this is 100% safe for them. There are others who have had bad previous experiences with vaccines who are skeptical about getting the vaccine. There are literally thousands of people who have had COVID and worry about getting the vaccine after having had the virus. There are people suffering long-haul COVID who fear any additional exposure and dont want the vaccine. And the list goes on and on of people who are trying to sort through the media hype and political rhetoric to determine whats the safest choice.

Are there people who think crazy things like its a scam, or its some bad government experiment, or that aliens will use it to track us, sure, but they are small in number and should not be of concern.

But if you are thinking anyone is not getting the vaccine to intentionally put you at risk, well that as far fetched as as the alien tracking notion or the people taking animal worming medication.

Sorry I just dont get the argument you are trying to make.

Not sure its really worth either of our time to make the connection that seems impossible to make here.

[John Mercier]

Why?
You stated you would discriminate against his business.
Doesn't he get a choice? Or is it only those that make choices that you agree with?

[WinnisquamZ]

Simple change the words from unvaccinated and vaccinated to homosexual and straight and hear how you all sound.


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[John Mercier]

And what kind of business are you in that your customers and co-workers could give you HIV?

[XCR-700]

You keep suggesting that it is a choice to get vaccinated/wear a mask, but not a choice not to interact with those that are not vaccinated/wear a mask.
All parties have the choice.

yes you do have that choice!

I never said that.

You can hide away in some sanitary germ proof place anytime you want, who do you thing is stopping you or suggesting you cannot???

I think based on the numbers you are living this horrible fear over something that does not rise to that level, but it is your choice.

And how long would you stay hidden away? This will never totally go away or not be a threat. List is way too short to live in such fear.

Just think back to the AIDS/HIV "epidemic" this is similar in many ways (socially not medically)

All that hostility and fear and discrimination, all for no good reason,,,

Do you really think that what happened then was reasonable?

[WinnisquamZ]

Simple change the words from unvaccinated and vaccinated to homosexual and straight and hear how you all sound.


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[John Mercier]

Because of HIV (though it is not the only blood borne pathogen), we now have specific kits required that business uses to clean up any blood.

So the only way to get HIV at my workplace is to be in the bathroom sharing needles or having unprotected sex. Neither of those are condoned for employees or customers.

[gillygirl]

Simple change the words from unvaccinated and vaccinated to homosexual and straight and hear how you all sound.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)Again, a flawed comparison. One involves a choice, the other does not.

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[XCR-700]

Why?
You stated you would discriminate against his business.
Doesn't he get a choice? Or is it only those that make choices that you agree with?

Yes one is called choice the other discrimination, and if you cant tell the difference between choice and discrimination at this point in your life I dont honestly know how you can be taught. But it sure explains a lot and helps me to better understand some of the various threads I have read here.

[XCR-700]

Because of HIV (though it is not the only blood borne pathogen), we now have specific kits required that business uses to clean up any blood.

So the only way to get HIV at my workplace is to be in the bathroom sharing needles or having unprotected sex. Neither of those are condoned for employees or customers.

Thats the understanding today, are you so young you honestly dont remember the fear people harbored and did not even want to be on the same sidewalk with someone who was an HIV/AIDS sufferer?

Its so similar to what I see today.

People who were even suspected of being gay were beat up just for being in public.

It was public fear meltdown.

[XCR-700]

Again, a flawed comparison. One involves a choice, the other does not.

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Actually i think it has many similarities with regard to the discrimination concern.

[John Mercier]

Thats the understanding today, are you so young you honestly dont remember the fear people harbored and did not even want to be on the same sidewalk with someone who was an HIV/AIDS sufferer?

Its so similar to what I see today.

People who were even suspected of being gay were beat up just for being in public.

It was public fear meltdown.
That was in the early unknown, we went through that with Covid also; but now we are well beyond that stage.
I can't get HIV from a toilet seat, and I can't get Covid from a doorknob.

[XCR-700]

That was in the early unknown, we went through that with Covid also; but now we are well beyond that stage.
I can't get HIV from a toilet seat, and I can't get Covid from a doorknob.

Yes, then clearly you do get it.

So then why the tremendous fear of the unvaccinated? Your concerns make even less sense now.

I know you focus a lot on the impact to business, but this cant all just be about money??? Trading such a serious loss of your freedom of choice so that someone can make a few dollars cant be all there is to your concerns.

So am I supposed to read this as you just want the right to tell unvaccinated people to keep out of your business/personal space/something else? Again, that doesnt make sense either.

Sorry I still just dont get the argument you are trying to make.

So again, not sure its really worth either of our time to make the connection that seems impossible to make here.

In the past week in the U.S. ...
New daily reported cases fell 15.7%
Covid-related hospitalizations fell 10.2%

[XCR-700]

Because of HIV (though it is not the only blood borne pathogen), we now have specific kits required that business uses to clean up any blood.

So the only way to get HIV at my workplace is to be in the bathroom sharing needles or having unprotected sex. Neither of those are condoned for employees or customers.

And thats a good thing right?

[XCR-700]

And what kind of business are you in that your customers and co-workers could give you HIV?

I have no idea who this is directed to or why, or even what to do with it.

It seems completely out of left field and a non sequitur.

Clearly this thread has jumped the shark now.

[John Mercier]

I have no idea who this is directed to or why, or even what to do with it.

It seems completely out of left field and a non sequitur.

Clearly this thread has jumped the shark now.

You. I have never been in any industry were I, or anyone that I worked with, while doing their job was at high risk of getting HIV.

I presume you must be in the medical industry or such.

I worked through the 80s in retail and construction before entering manufacturing, and other than when I became a safety officer did I hear or have anything brought to my attention on blood borne pathogens. Never saw or heard of anyone being threatened for being a homosexual - some off the cuff negative remarks from the self-proclaimed conservatives, but no actual physical threats.

[XCR-700]

You. I have never been in any industry were I, or anyone that I worked with, while doing their job was at high risk of getting HIV.

I presume you must be in the medical industry or such.

I worked through the 80s in retail and construction before entering manufacturing, and other than when I became a safety officer did I hear or have anything brought to my attention on blood borne pathogens. Never saw or heard of anyone being threatened for being a homosexual - some off the cuff negative remarks from the self-proclaimed conservatives, but no actual physical threats.

No idea where you got that idea from. Couldnt be more wrong.

I have been very fortunate enough to work in several different fields that got me lots of exposure to a very smart and very diverse group of people over the 40 plus years in the workforce.

[John Mercier]

Yes, then clearly you do get it.

So then why the tremendous fear of the unvaccinated? Your concerns make even less sense now.

I know you focus a lot on the impact to business, but this cant all just be about money??? Trading such a serious loss of your freedom of choice so that someone can make a few dollars cant be all there is to your concerns.

So am I supposed to read this as you just want the right to tell unvaccinated people to keep out of your business/personal space/something else? Again, that doesnt make sense either.

Sorry I still just dont get the argument you are trying to make.

So again, not sure its really worth either of our time to make the connection that seems impossible to make here.

In the past week in the U.S. ...
New daily reported cases fell 15.7%
Covid-related hospitalizations fell 10.2%
You do realize that broad US data doesn't matter. And that if you got HIV tomorrow, you won't need to quarantine and transfer your workload to a co-worker? Or is that concern a ''panic'' in your mind?

We went through this in the winter before the vaccine became available. We quarantined those that caught Covid and needed to be per the rules. The workload on me increased exponentially - I gave my notice. They requested that I stay to train others so they could continue to service customers. That time period is quickly slipping away.

Another outbreak leaves less time to train, as personnel have to be moved to fill the gap. This is why it becomes an issue.

If they get covid, but are fully vaccinate with the two week period, both they and I will need to wear masks. It slows the training, but we don't need to isolate. If they have not been fully vaccinated, they must isolate for 10 days... regardless of symptoms -no training. If another employee must isolate, and a trainee or I must fill the gap... again training stops for 10 days.

When it is this busy, those ''little'' things add up.

[mswlogo]

Well I suppose thats telling that this is what anyone is concerned about.

And when the educated need something repaired and all they can find is uneducated non-vaccinated tradesman I wonder how that will go,,,

With the current trends for everyones kids to go to college and work in offices, I see lots of opportunity for the uneducated non-vaccinated tradesman to make lots of money in the future ;-)

You might have uncovered a true golden nugget.

That was already happening.

Younger generation can’t even change a freaken tire.

And trades people are making a bundle.

[thinkxingu]

Let's hope that this convo can be put to bed sooner than later.

NPR reported that the Covid-19 Scenario Modeling Hub, which includes 9 different sources, predicts that with the 5-11 vaccine approval and continued increases in adult vaccinations that we may be on the way back to "normal."

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[XCR-700]

You do realize that broad US data doesn't matter. And that if you got HIV tomorrow, you won't need to quarantine and transfer your workload to a co-worker? Or is that concern a ''panic'' in your mind?

We went through this in the winter before the vaccine became available. We quarantined those that caught Covid and needed to be per the rules. The workload on me increased exponentially - I gave my notice. They requested that I stay to train others so they could continue to service customers. That time period is quickly slipping away.

Another outbreak leaves less time to train, as personnel have to be moved to fill the gap. This is why it becomes an issue.

If they get covid, but are fully vaccinate with the two week period, both they and I will need to wear masks. It slows the training, but we don't need to isolate. If they have not been fully vaccinated, they must isolate for 10 days... regardless of symptoms -no training. If another employee must isolate, and a trainee or I must fill the gap... again training stops for 10 days.

When it is this busy, those ''little'' things add up.

I guess to me its neither a concern nor a panic, its just business.

I deal with employee turnover constantly. Retention is very difficult the last few years. COVID has done nothing to significantly change our overall resources available.

I see this as no different than a bad cold and flu year, except that its extended. Peoples responses to all this are far too extreme, no need to stop processes like training unless just adapt them to remote/online activities. Figure out what work can be done from home, its amazing how much work people can do via MS Teams or Zoom. And if they dont have a computer at home, get them one and migrate all your staff to laptops.

So many options to adapt and overcome.

We create our own roadblocks to productivity, when the options sometime end up even better then the situation was before the need to change.

[XCR-700]

That was already happening.

Younger generation can’t even change a freaken tire.

And trades people are making a bundle.

Yes they are, i only wish I were in my 20's again, I would be in plumbing school right now and laughing all the way to the bank.

[BillJohn]

I see this as no different than a bad cold and flu year, except that its extended.

Wow is it ignorance or hubris? More likely you just trolling and we are just feeding you by replying. Count me out.

[XCR-700]

Wow is it ignorance or hubris? More likely you just trolling and we are just feeding you by replying. Count me out.

If you will go back and re-read the message it was regarding the impact of COVID on people being physically in the office to be working or trained, and in my opinion it is no greater impact than I have seen in years when we had lots of people out with colds and flu.

As such it would appear to me yours is either the trolling response, or you just didnt read/understand what was written.

Mine is an honest reply about my observations and experience concerning how to deal with the impact of COVID to your available man hours to be worked. In many instances it is not necessary for every employee to be physically in the building to perform their work, sales is a perfect example. Telework is now a widely accepted method of reducing the impact of the pandemic, and even better yet, it may be a good option for lots of folks even after the pandemic is finally declared over.

Is yours an honest attempt to share experiences and helpful solutions? in any case hostile and closed mined responses will accomplish little for anyone, and as you seem to be working yourself up over the matter and unable to actually read the posts as they are written, maybe you should consider taking a rest from all this, as you suggest ("count me out"). Sometimes its too stressful to discuss such matters, well for some people.

ATB

[fatlazyless]

As already mentioned I got my third vaccination shot of Pfizer, on Sunday at the local CVS. It was very easy to get it done. You start at www.cvs.com/immunizations/get-vaccinated ...... answer about ten questions .... get an appointment ...... and get it done ..... paid by your Uncle Sam.

They had many empty time slots available ..... 1pm, 2pm, 3pm, 4pm ..... all available ....... with an appointment I was in and out the door in about 7-minutes or so ...... and I got a covid vaccination in the left arm and a flu vaccination in the right arm ....... then went back to Waterville Valley and swam 24 very long 35-yard laps of breast stroke and side stroke in the cool water www.wmacwv.com 70-degree , huge outdoor swim pool.

Anyone else here get their THIRD Covid vaccination shot, or YOU just thinking about it?

It was soooooo easy to get it done at CVS.

[John Mercier]

Really? So if they have a cold or flu, they have to isolate for 10 days if they are not vaccinated?

I didn't know that you could get a cold vaccine, and I have never seen a rule/regulation that states an unvaccinated employee that gets flu must isolate for 10 days... in fact, I haven't seen one that even requires one day; or for that matter that they even have to wear a mask.

So, yeah, it is different.
Add in the time limit, and it really becomes different.

[XCR-700]

Really? So if they have a cold or flu, they have to isolate for 10 days if they are not vaccinated?

I didn't know that you could get a cold vaccine, and I have never seen a rule/regulation that states an unvaccinated employee that gets flu must isolate for 10 days... in fact, I haven't seen one that even requires one day; or for that matter that they even have to wear a mask.

So, yeah, it is different.
Add in the time limit, and it really becomes different.

No actually colds and flu in the workplace can be far worse, as employees either feel bad enough to take leave (the lost work hours you seem most concerned about), or they come to work and sneeze and blow they noses and actually spread germs unlike most COVID infected employees who will either will be in isolation at home, but fully capable of teleworking, or they will be out and about but in the vast majority of cases not spreading anything as they are not coughing or sneezing.

We actually had an employee document that he had doubled his productivity while teleworking due to the lack of distractions in the facility. And this was an employee who did not want to telework. Call it one of the better lessons learned as a result of COVID.

Hope this is helpful to your place of work.

[John Mercier]

If you think so.
But in approximately six months... reality hits.

[XCR-700]

If you think so.
But in approximately six months... reality hits.

Your crystal ball is better than mine, what event is happening in 6 months that changes anything?

I hope its something good like I hit the lottery, and if so please pass along the numbers I need to play and on what date and game. I promise I will buy you a pallet of non-chinese masks once I hit!

[BillJohn]

"I see this as no different than a bad cold and flu year, except that its extended. You used those words to marginalize Covid and compare it to bad cold year? Covid has now killed more than the 1918 flu pandemic and Covid is far from done with us. Why? Because there are morons who “think” vaccinations are somehow harmful and that masks are not part of the solution.

I understand that you and your sycophants all spew the same verisimilitudes. I do not know if you have an agenda or are simply unable to look at the facts and rationally process the information. What I do know is that people like you have exacerbated the pandemic and for that, you should feel shame…but I know you cannot really comprehend your role in extending the pandemic.

[John Mercier]

Your crystal ball is better than mine, what event is happening in 6 months that changes anything?

I hope its something good like I hit the lottery, and if so please pass along the numbers I need to play and on what date and game. I promise I will buy you a pallet of non-chinese masks once I hit!

I switch jobs. The untrained are the untrained.

[John Mercier]

"I see this as no different than a bad cold and flu year, except that its extended. You used those words to marginalize Covid and compare it to bad cold year? Covid has now killed more than the 1918 flu pandemic and Covid is far from done with us. Why? Because there are morons who “think” vaccinations are somehow harmful and that masks are not part of the solution.

I understand that you and your sycophants all spew the same verisimilitudes. I do not know if you have an agenda or are simply unable to look at the facts and rationally process the information. What I do know is that people like you have exacerbated the pandemic and for that, you should feel shame…but I know you cannot really comprehend your role in extending the pandemic.They aren't extending it, we are. We make excuses for them.

[FlyingScot]

I think that is a wholly unnecessary tragedy, and personally I probably would not apply somewhere like that nor would choose to shop there unless there are literally no other options (assuming its a retail business), but thats your choice.

I feel certain that the tragedy of the intentional fear mongering that you have been subjected to and that produces decisions like this will not fully understood for years.

Its like reliving the AIDS/HIV crisis all over again, and maybe worse as we should have learned that lesson. Its so disheartening to see this again. Maybe its just human nature to harbor such fear and practice such discrimination,,,

We would never discriminate against a person with HIV. As John pointed out, HIV does not present risk to other employees. (you seem to be a few decades behind here)

About 90% of our team loved the vaccine requirement immediately. The rest got on board a week later. We're a science-based company, so people follow the data and recognize that they will be a safer at work and the company will be at less risk of a covid-related shut down. Overall, a morale-booster for us :)

[WinnisquamZ]

Today you wouldn’t discriminate against a person with HIV. But, I am positive you would have back in the day. We must all remember the fear and anger that was being thrown around. Magic Johnson was forced to retire from the NBA due to fear. With what we know today, he should have been allowed to continue playing without fear. When this virus passes many of you will regret the choices you have made and the time with family and friends have have lost


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[FlyingScot]

Today you wouldn’t discriminate against a person with HIV. But, I am positive you would have back in the day. We must all remember the fear and anger that was being thrown around. Magic Johnson was forced to retire from the NBA due to fear. With what we know today, he should have been allowed to continue playing without fear. When this virus passes many of you will regret the choices you have made and the time with family and friends have have lost


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

Please do not judge without information. When I said never, I meant never.

In the 1990s, coincidentally while Magic was struggling to stay active, I had an excellent VP and friend at work who died of AIDS. We did not discriminate against him, but did everything we could to make sure he felt welcomed and supported. We named an addition to our building for him after he passed.

[XCR-700]

We're a science-based company, so people follow the data and recognize that they will be a safer at work and the company will be at less risk of a covid-related shut down.

For a number of reasons I cannot disclose where I work, but my organization is a pioneer that has created the science and generated the safety data that impacts literally millions of people every day, and our science and data and most importantly our guidance is literally used all over the world.

I am blessed to be surrounded by people solving problems at all corners of the planet and working with governments in countless countries.

Since the beginning of this mess I have constantly been inundated with coworkers concerned about this matter with varying perspectives.

Most interesting to me is the number of people who have recently come forward to say "I am vaccinated, but do not want to share my medical status with anyone, its no ones business". And also the people who are saying "I have reviewed this matter and I am convinced I dont want the vaccine at this time, its not the right choice for me".

And these folks are as educated and experienced as anyone in their field.

I was most impressed to recently be at a military base when a high raking official asked my coworker if another person we work with was still the expert on a particular matter they were experiencing. For a moment I was genuinely awestruck.

Clearly this is a very polarizing matter, and after countless months of seeing the impact and personally suffering both the virus and its continuing lingering effects, which may well force me into early retirement, I am of a mind that we still need to respect individual choice above all else. Even given the state of COVID in the US. I cannot in good faith support mandatory/forced vaccination, and disparate treatment of people who choose not to be vaccinated. I do not fear anyone that is unvaccinated.

Like at any time before COVID I do try to avoid anyone who is clearly sick, but thats just common sense. But avoiding the unvaccinated simply because they are unvaccinated and based on what we now know seems, well to be frank, ignorant. Much like the ignorance we saw with HIV/AIDS, Autism, Downs and so many other matters over the years. Hopefully in time this will all come to pass.

Sorry if your opinion is different, I guess thats just life.

[FlyingScot]

Most interesting to me is the number of people who have recently come forward to say "I am vaccinated, but do not want to share my medical status with anyone, its no ones business". And also the people who are saying "I have reviewed this matter and I am convinced I dont want the vaccine at this time, its not the right choice for me".



Of course, all of theses people have already shared their status on numerous other vaccines numerous times since they were kids--without complaint. Perhaps some even appreciated free flu shots at work.

But that was before politics interfered....

[XCR-700]

Of course, all of theses people have already shared their status on numerous other vaccines numerous times since they were kids--without complaint. Perhaps some even appreciated free flu shots at work.

But that was before politics interfered....

Well actually no, their medical data was shared without their consent by their parents in order to get them into public schools, certainly not by choice or voluntarily.

Personally I have not been asked for any vaccination record in my entire adult life.

As for free flu shots, some yes, some never. Oh and remember NOTHING is free, you pay one way or another.

And speaking of paying,,, I was surprised to see "some" of the numbers regarding the cost of the COVID vaccine development, which it is almost incalculable to get the actual total cost of the entire effort. Literally. The actual total cost is not ever going to be available to the public due to how it was created.

But if you could calculate the cost of each life it potentially saved, most could not afford the bill.

Hopefully that changes in the future as well.

[John Mercier]

Republicans argued that the medical consent was a parental right.
And yes, the parents could have chosen not to send them to a public school or private school that required vaccination - so there has always been a choice.

[XCR-700]

Republicans argued that the medical consent was a parental right.
And yes, the parents could have chosen not to send them to a public school or private school that required vaccination - so there has always been a choice.

I dont personally care if the pope argued it, I am a very independent voter and not aligned with any party because that all have serious problems in my opinion.

As for that being a choice, well not for the people it impacted. Once we become adults we dont get the data back. And before PII laws that data was too often shared very freely.

[SailinAway]

I am of a mind that we still need to respect individual choice above all else.

Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.

And yet, there are thousands of ways that you do not have personal freedom because you've chosen to live in human society, rather than out in the woods or on an island, far from people and having zero need for others. There are thousands of limitations on your freedom, and clearly you accept these limits because you want the benefits of living in human society.

Thus your statement that "we still need to respect individual choice above all else" is incongruous with the way you actually live your life. If you really prioritized your freedom above all else, you would be living in a place where there were no limits on your freedom. Such places do exist, but you don't choose to live there because in fact you have other priorities that are greater than your desire for freedom!

One of the limits on freedom if you choose to live in society is that you can't do things that harm or could harm other people, like walking around unvaccinated or without a mask. Why? Because other people's right to live and to not become gravely ill because of you is saccrosanct.

It is possible to weigh one person's needs against another's and to decide which needs carry greater weight. (Courts do this all the time.) One person's need to stay alive and not become gravely ill does indeed outweigh another person's desire to walk around unvaccinated and unmasked. You cannot rationally deny the magnitude of 670,000 Covid deaths in the US. That outcome and preventing more unnecessary deaths vastly outweighs individual desire to not get vaccinated or wear a mask.

Individual freedom can never be absolute. If we were all 100% free all the time, social chaos would result. Social maturity means accepting limits on personal freedom, especially the prohibition on harming others.

The saddest thing about your belief that personal freedom is more important than anything else is that it lets you have the benefits of living in society but it doesn't protect society---the people who provide you with those benefits---from your harmful choices. That's just selfish, and socially immature.

You need me. (My taxes contribute to the pool of wealth that ensures most of the things you need and enjoy in life.) How does your need for freedom outweigh my need to live?

[XCR-700]

Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.


No you have it totally backwards!

I prioritize the persons right to make decision about medical treatment concerning their body over MY preference to tell them anything they MUST do.

And I believe that is the standard that should apply to all.

I do not understand how I possibly tell you you must stop; smoking, drinking alcohol, must keep your weight under a certain level or even take a vaccine to protect me!

I cannot do that, you are entitled to make your decisions about whats best for you concerning your medical treatment.

Its the same for something like crime and gun control, should I ba able to demand that you carry a gun to protect yourself AND me because we all know the police cannot be everywhere all the time, but violent crime CAN happen anywhere and at any time. And clearly the answer is no, I cannot force you to carry a gun to protect yourself AND me. Its unthinkable, and is a vaccination mandate.

Sorry I dont know how to be more clear than that.

If you disagree so be it. Then will you also be demanding I carry a gun to protect you, because I will also oppose that, and I fully support anyones right to carry as THEY so choose, but not by mandate.

ATB

[XCR-700]

Why do you hold this opinion?

In saying that you prioritize individual choice above all else, you're saying that your personal freedom is more important than anything else.

And yet, there are thousands of ways that you do not have personal freedom because you've chosen to live in human society, rather than out in the woods or on an island, far from people and having zero need for others. There are thousands of limitations on your freedom, and clearly you accept these limits because you want the benefits of living in human society.

Thus your statement that "we still need to respect individual choice above all else" is incongruous with the way you actually live your life. If you really prioritized your freedom above all else, you would be living in a place where there were no limits on your freedom. Such places do exist, but you don't choose to live there because in fact you have other priorities that are greater than your desire for freedom!

One of the limits on freedom if you choose to live in society is that you can't do things that harm or could harm other people, like walking around unvaccinated or without a mask. Why? Because other people's right to live and to not become gravely ill because of you is saccrosanct.

It is possible to weigh one person's needs against another's and to decide which needs carry greater weight. (Courts do this all the time.) One person's need to stay alive and not become gravely ill does indeed outweigh another person's desire to walk around unvaccinated and unmasked. You cannot rationally deny the magnitude of 670,000 Covid deaths in the US. That outcome and preventing more unnecessary deaths vastly outweighs individual desire to not get vaccinated or wear a mask.

Individual freedom can never be absolute. If we were all 100% free all the time, social chaos would result. Social maturity means accepting limits on personal freedom, especially the prohibition on harming others.

The saddest thing about your belief that personal freedom is more important than anything else is that it lets you have the benefits of living in society but it doesn't protect society---the people who provide you with those benefits---from your harmful choices. That's just selfish, and socially immature.

You need me. (My taxes contribute to the pool of wealth that ensures most of the things you need and enjoy in life.) How does your need for freedom outweigh my need to live?

I just took a breath and went back and reread your post to see if I am missing something and I must say no; I actually and honestly fundamentally disagree with you on most of what you are saying WITH REGARD TO MANDATORY VACCINATION.

The lack of personal choices in many other matters are things that need to be discussed on an issue by issue bases, and cannot be lumped together under the umbrella of the universal cannot argue needs of a society. Thats is the text book example of totalitarian rule when you cannot challenge the government or even the common mind position, it is communism.

People come to America and fight for the most basic and fundamental rights known to man, they choice to have medical and religious and other freedoms. Freedoms like the right to access to birth control, the right to access abortion, the right to life and to choose to die with dignity. They do not come to America to be told to stand in line and be forced to get vaccinated, and one look at the current southern border situation will show you we are NOT requiring these immigrants to get the vaccine we are requiring our own citizens to get! How does that work,,,

As for your magnitude issue; first off everyone knows the numbers are a disaster. I have no idea how far off they are, but they are not accurate representations of reasonably healthy people who in fact died from COVID. They may have been infected with COVID when they died, but not all of them actually died because of COVID. ANd that is a VERY important fact. And if we did use your numbers, what percentage of the population would this be??? Maybe .2 or .3 % depending on the numbers you use. Does that genuinely warrant mandatory anything? Not in my world. Not especially when you already had a 60% vaccination rate AND countless % natural immunity.

This is not about me, it is about you and me and the other guy imposing our medical requirements on others. That is NOT acceptable unless you have some far greater apocalyptic event that is raging out of control and there are no other options. Otherwise respect for peoples personal medical choice and freedoms comes above you worrying about having 100% protection, which as you said there is no such thing.

By getting the vaccine and wearing masks AND forcing others to do the same, you believe you will have full protection, when there will always be breakthroughs and mutations and future infections. You cannot stop this, you cannot win, there is no cure. You will only slow the spread.

So when your desire to get yourself maximum protection forces others to do something they are not in agreement with, not comfortable with, and may not be good for them, you are the one who is trumping the other persons rights, not the other way around, You have this twisted backwards.

If you live is such fear, you can remove yourself from this and isolate, but it is not your right to demand others do what you want them to regarding their medical treatment. It is fundamentally wrong.

Clearly we will not come to agreement on this, and I personally lose no sleep over it. I hope you find your peace with all this.

[John Mercier]

That only counts should your medical decision not be able to harm others.

You would need to complete isolate yourself, or provide that the other parties knowing the risk can avoid you.

[XCR-700]

That only counts should your medical decision not be able to harm others.

You would need to complete isolate yourself, or provide that the other parties knowing the risk can avoid you.

Hummm,,, Let me try this another way.

I do not not support ANY requirement that my children's doctors or teachers be required to wear masks or get vaccinated. The choice to wear a mask or get vaccinated should be theirs, as well to not continue teaching or even requesting to be a telework/remote teacher.

Clearly some will come down on the absolute opposite side of this and thus why we have such polarization on this matter.

Sadly it cannot be a civil discussion, and anger and hostility and intolerance than becomes the standard by which we interact on any such controversial matter. Vacant is any measure of respect for a differing opinion. And I make NO claim that I am immune to this distasteful new standard.

[John Mercier]

I didn't state teachers.

You stated that I should not be able to discriminate against the unvaccinated, you suggest that I do not have the right to protect myself against those that may endanger me or my family.

Either we can isolate from others - aka ''discriminate'' - or we cannot.

Teachers are only a small subset of the working population.

If I have the option to only remote work with customers, is that discriminating against customers that have been fully vaccinate/are wearing a mask because they do not have personal interaction that they may prefer?

If I didn't have the option to remote work, do I lose my option to protect myself... and succumb to someone else's choice?

It isn't are complex issue. If you truly believe that each individual has the option not to interact directly... then you have to agree that those that cannot prove vaccination/wear a mask will be discriminated against per the consequences of their own choice.

[XCR-700]

I didn't state teachers.

You stated that I should not be able to discriminate against the unvaccinated, you suggest that I do not have the right to protect myself against those that may endanger me or my family.

Either we can isolate from others - aka ''discriminate'' - or we cannot.

Teachers are only a small subset of the working population.

If I have the option to only remote work with customers, is that discriminating against customers that have been fully vaccinate/are wearing a mask because they do not have personal interaction that they may prefer?

If I didn't have the option to remote work, do I lose my option to protect myself... and succumb to someone else's choice?

It isn't are complex issue. If you truly believe that each individual has the option not to interact directly... then you have to agree that those that cannot prove vaccination/wear a mask will be discriminated against per the consequences of their own choice.

Sorry I have tried reading this several times and to me its totally incoherent and a rambling mish/mash of stuff.

We will simply have to agree to disagree as at this point I have no idea what you are arguing or trying to say.

Sorry,,,

[John Mercier]

It is not a mish/mash.

Your only looking at it from your point of view.

Your point of view is that anyone should have the choice to vaccinate, but no one should have the choice to isolate themselves from those that made the choice not to vaccinate.

[XCR-700]

It is not a mish/mash.

Your only looking at it from your point of view.

Your point of view is that anyone should have the choice to vaccinate, but no one should have the choice to isolate themselves from those that made the choice not to vaccinate.

Again no idea what you are saying, you certainly do have the choice to isolate youself.

With very few exceptions, you are not required to live around people go to any public place talk to or see anyone. Plenty of people are not circulating with the public.

You can build a plastic bubble, wear a space suit, etc.

Sorry this is not making any sense to me,,,

[FlyingScot]

Well actually no, their medical data was shared without their consent by their parents in order to get them into public schools, certainly not by choice or voluntarily.

A distinction without a difference. I'm guessing you do not have kids.

Virtually everybody in the US has been sharing vax data for generations. This data is often shared voluntarily for trivial things, such as when parents send their children to summer camp. Maybe none of these people complaining to you have kids or maybe they're just hypocrites?

On the flu vaccines--thousands of employers all over the country give flu vaccines to all employees who would like them. Obviously this creates a semi-public awareness of who is and is not vaxxed at work. Maybe none of these complainers have ever gone to a free pop-up flu clinic?

Neither of these things has ever been a big deal, until people decided to use covid vax as a political issue

[SailinAway]

No you have it totally backwards! I prioritize the persons right to make decision about medical treatment concerning their body over MY preference to tell them anything they MUST do.

You're saying the same thing I said, in different words. You're saying that individual freedoms (the freedom to not get vaccinated) are more important than mandating public health measures for the good of all of society. I strongly disagree.

People come to America and fight for the most basic and fundamental rights known to man.

The three inalienable rights listed in the Declaration of Independence are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. A person's liberty to carry a lethal disease in his body and expose me to it does not supersede my right to life.

I'm stunned at your minimization of 670,000 deaths to Covid. The nation was traumatized when 3,000 people died on 9/11 but 670,000 deaths is a small number??

With very few exceptions, you are not required to live around people go to any public place talk to or see anyone. Plenty of people are not circulating with the public.

The basic necessities of life, especially food and medical care, do require going to a public place. I don't go to restaurants, concerts, or other optional places. Again, one person's desire to not get vaccinated does not supersede my right to obtain basic necessities of life.

You're going to answer that I can order groceries to be delivered to my house. My reply is the same: one person's desire to not get vaccinated does not supersede my right to avoid the added expense and risk of someone else choosing my food for me.

For medical care, in-person care is sometimes or often the only option.

What you're not acknowledging is that often people's reasons for wanting to avoid getting vaccinated are trivial or based on pure ignorance. Those unfounded reasons need to be balanced against other people's right to live and to have a normal life, like being able to go to the grocery story and doctor.

[XCR-700]

A distinction without a difference. I'm guessing you do not have kids.

Virtually everybody in the US has been sharing vax data for generations. This data is often shared voluntarily for trivial things, such as when parents send their children to summer camp. Maybe none of these people complaining to you have kids or maybe they're just hypocrites?

On the flu vaccines--thousands of employers all over the country give flu vaccines to all employees who would like them. Obviously this creates a semi-public awareness of who is and is not vaxxed at work. Maybe none of these complainers have ever gone to a free pop-up flu clinic?

Neither of these things has ever been a big deal, until people decided to use covid vax as a political issue

I actually have 2 school age kids and I do not support any vaccination mandate or mask requirements for their teachers or school staff or doctors or anyone else they com into contact with. My kids are vaccinated and we are not concerned about anyone else infecting them.

As for the people at work raising the most concern about the mandates, most do have children, not 100%, but most.

They just have seen the wrong side of government control and do not support medical mandates.

Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates. Why is that so hard to believe, because it is not your preference.

You can disagree with them, no problem, but why the hostile responses,,, Its troubling to see such volatile responses to differing opinions and such a strong desire to force your preferences on others about what they must do with their bodies.

Its kinda frighting to see people demanding other people take medications they are not comfortable with.

[John Mercier]

So everyone that does except medical mandates is not highly educated or reasonable?

[John Mercier]

Again no idea what you are saying, you certainly do have the choice to isolate youself.

With very few exceptions, you are not required to live around people go to any public place talk to or see anyone. Plenty of people are not circulating with the public.

You can build a plastic bubble, wear a space suit, etc.

Sorry this is not making any sense to me,,,But you directly stated that I should not discriminate against those that have not been vaccinated.
How do I isolate myself from them, without discriminating them?

[XCR-700]

So everyone that does except medical mandates is not highly educated or reasonable?

Again no idea what you are saying or think you are reading, its as if you simply want to spit and snarl and be a spoiler and I guess thats your right.

I also dont believe in censorship, so I guess if it makes you feel better to constantly attack, so be it.

It seems like a tough life to be miserable all the time,but if it works for you enjoy.

ATB

[XCR-700]

But you directly stated that I should not discriminate against those that have not been vaccinated.
How do I isolate myself from them, without discriminating them?

Again, its like double talk gibberish,,,

How do you isolate???

You build a cabin house outside of town and avoid people.

You build a plastic bubble in your current home.

You wear a space suit.

You move to the tundra.

You have countless choices, what is the point of this banter???

So much hostility, stress is going to kill you long before COVID.

[John Mercier]

I isolate myself by not doing business interacting with those that have chosen to be unvaccinated.

''Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates.''

So anyone that accepts medical mandates are not highly educated or reasonable.

[XCR-700]

I isolate myself by not doing business interacting with those that have chosen to be unvaccinated.

''Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates.''

So anyone that accepts medical mandates are not highly educated or reasonable.

Sorry I cannot feed this insanity any more, please dont bother replying to me on this matter.

If you cannot stop yourself I will apologize now for ignoring you, its not reasonable to keep this going. Its wholly dysfunctional and well past the point of anything productive coming out of it.

I have no issues with differing opinions, but your are just playing games with a very serious matter. This is real life and you are just talking nonsense.

I wish you a good retirement and hope you can find some comfort not being subjected to the unvaccinated people until this is no longer a matter of concern to you.

ATB

[John Mercier]

No. I used your own words.

[XCR-700]

I really hate using tools like the ignore list,,,

But sometimes its better. (for everyone)

Ignore List

FlyingScot
John Mercier
SailinAway

On a positive note, NH COVID deaths 7 day avg holding steady at 2.

[John Mercier]

A month ago it was zero.

[FlyingScot]

I actually have 2 school age kids and I do not support any vaccination mandate or mask requirements for their teachers or school staff or doctors or anyone else they com into contact with. My kids are vaccinated and we are not concerned about anyone else infecting them.

As for the people at work raising the most concern about the mandates, most do have children, not 100%, but most.

They just have seen the wrong side of government control and do not support medical mandates.

Not sure what more to say except that highly educated and experienced and reasonable people do not support medical mandates. Why is that so hard to believe, because it is not your preference.

You can disagree with them, no problem, but why the hostile responses,,, Its troubling to see such volatile responses to differing opinions and such a strong desire to force your preferences on others about what they must do with their bodies.

Its kinda frighting to see people demanding other people take medications they are not comfortable with.

It disturbs me that you seem to be denying reality repeatedly.

With respect to forcing people to get vaccines and share their vaccine status with schools, camps, etc--I support the vaccine policy that we have had in America for decades. It appears from this most recent post--you and your kids all have plenty of vaccines and have been sharing that info--that you have also been supporting this policy for your entire life...

...until now! :eek:

[gravy boat]

https://off-guardian.org/2021/09/22/30-facts-you-need-to-know-your-covid-cribsheet/

[gillygirl]

https://off-guardian.org/2021/09/22/30-facts-you-need-to-know-your-covid-cribsheet/

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/offguardian/


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[FlyingScot]

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/offguardian/


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

Thanks, gillygirl, I had not seen either site before. One thing about the Media Fact Check site I really like is that when they criticize Off Guardian, they back it up with facts and links. We can all go back and look at previous Off Guardian posts and decide whether they are a good source or just trolls. My favorite example is the Off Guardian article asserting that no one has died from covid :eek:

[thinkxingu]

The current estimate is that 175,000 children have been orphaned as a result of the pandemic. That's heartbreaking.

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[Pam]

Why do you assume that you, me or anyone will become infected, get sick and suffer, when only ~10% of the population has tested positive to COVID, and well less than 1 percent have died. How does this constitute a threat so sever that your fear of infection overrides anyone elses free choice of medical treatment.

Isnt that fear of some significant impact from COVID the irrational concern?

My desire to allow others to choose their medical treatment.

Now if you had a continuing situation like NY saw in the beginning where they needed refrigerated trailers to store the dead bodies, I would agree with your concerns, but we are so far from that today and really dont understand how we continue with most of the current COVID actions.

The best medicine is what mother nature provides, not what shot you and others decide someone else needs. Human are built to adapt and overcome. Its not an instant solution, but it does work when you let it. So in reality isnt reserving medical intervention to those who are seeking it, or when you truly reach an emergency situation the better choice???

After all, you are the one concerned and yet you have taken yourself to FLA where the infection rate is higher then NH. And to do what, demand your neighbors get vaccinated so you can feel comfortable around them? Sorry that strikes me as backwards logic.

Couple of points: I'm wondering if you've walked through an old cemetery lately? I've heard it said that nature wants you dead at 35 and to kill 2 of your 5 children. Looking at old gravestones pretty much confirms that.

Also, how do you feel about the polio vaccine? When that was first given out it was actually a live virus and a small number of people actually got polio from it, yet it was given out in schools- I remember it well. Would it have been better to let polio flourish to this day?

We can hope for better covid vaccines and treatments as time goes on, but 700,000 Americans have died in a year and a half. Surely that warrants some mitigation?

[LakeDad]

The current estimate is that 175,000 children have been orphaned as a result of the pandemic. That's heartbreaking.

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So terrible :(


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[XCR-700]

Couple of points: I'm wondering if you've walked through an old cemetery lately? I've heard it said that nature wants you dead at 35 and to kill 2 of your 5 children. Looking at old gravestones pretty much confirms that.

Also, how do you feel about the polio vaccine? When that was first given out it was actually a live virus and a small number of people actually got polio from it, yet it was given out in schools- I remember it well. Would it have been better to let polio flourish to this day?

We can hope for better covid vaccines and treatments as time goes on, but 700,000 Americans have died in a year and a half. Surely that warrants some mitigation?

How do I feel? I have been very clear NO MANDATES.

I am not an anti-vaccine person, but the data being publicized is very misleading and even if I believed it was all true, the numbers do not support what we are doing and what too many here are promoting. My opinion remains unchanged and only reinforced, vaccination should not be mandatory. Not for this pandemic, its not warranted.

The worse part of all this, and almost to the point of despicable, are the people who are vaccinated and still live in terror of the virus and demand others be vaccinated. A society cannot live with people who impose such draconian fears and will on others, and in particular when its driven by unsubstantiated and unjust fears such as we are seeing. We did that once upon a time, it was called the Salem Witch Trials, a very dark period in our history. Soon to be followed by this one,,,

If you want the vaccine, get it, and give it to your kids and encourage everyone you know to get it, but do not ever force it on anyone or forbid them access to anything based on their vaccination status. My god, they are denying transplant patients surgery if they are unvaccinated. What kind of morbidly dysfunctional society are we becoming. I'm beginning to wonder if there is a second virus causing severe mental health problems.

If you live such a state of fear that as a vaccinated individual you are terrified of being around unvaccinated people, you probably have a serious anxiety issue and should be treated for that. Its a far bigger problem than COVID.

I mean seriously there are posts here where people are trying to actually calculate their personal level of protection from the virus. Is it 82%, 95%, 95% - 3 exposures to 1/2 vaccinated people,,, Its utterly dumbfounding to the point of absurd. A society cannot exist like this. And I guess to some degree it isn't,,, If we stay on the current trajectory as we are going now, America will be in ruin well before the mid-term election, so people wont have to worry about if the current administration is better or worse than the last one.

Thats how I feel.

Sorry, I am just being honest. I dont expect you to like it, but I do EXPECT you to respect it and allow me my opinion.

I have no desire to intentionally upset anyone and I have even intentionally kept away from this forum recently because of the extreme dysfunction and inconceivable levels of fear being promoted here. In 10+ years I have never seen such hostile and disrespectful and misguided posts on this forum as I have seen on this subject. Its a serious unmasking of some Dr Jekyll and Mr Hydes types among us.

Cant wait to see what happens next, thank god I have learned to make use of the ignore list, and thank god for the level headed among us who are not a stupid as I am to keep getting drawn back into this never ending carnival of fear.

[FlyingScot]

How do I feel? I have been very clear NO MANDATES.

I am not an anti-vaccine person, but the data being publicized is very misleading and even if I believed it was all true, the numbers do not support what we are doing and what too many here are promoting. My opinion remains unchanged and only reinforced, vaccination should not be mandatory. Not for this pandemic, its not warranted.

The worse part of all this, and almost to the point of despicable, are the people who are vaccinated and still live in terror of the virus and demand others be vaccinated. A society cannot live with people who impose such draconian fears and will on others, and in particular when its driven by unsubstantiated and unjust fears such as we are seeing. We did that once upon a time, it was called the Salem Witch Trials, a very dark period in our history. Soon to be followed by this one,,,

If you want the vaccine, get it, and give it to your kids and encourage everyone you know to get it, but do not ever force it on anyone or forbid them access to anything based on their vaccination status. My god, they are denying transplant patients surgery if they are unvaccinated. What kind of morbidly dysfunctional society are we becoming. I'm beginning to wonder if there is a second virus causing severe mental health problems.

If you live such a state of fear that as a vaccinated individual you are terrified of being around unvaccinated people, you probably have a serious anxiety issue and should be treated for that. Its a far bigger problem than COVID.

I mean seriously there are posts here where people are trying to actually calculate their personal level of protection from the virus. Is it 82%, 95%, 95% - 3 exposures to 1/2 vaccinated people,,, Its utterly dumbfounding to the point of absurd. A society cannot exist like this. And I guess to some degree it isn't,,, If we stay on the current trajectory as we are going now, America will be in ruin well before the mid-term election, so people wont have to worry about if the current administration is better or worse than the last one.

Thats how I feel.

Sorry, I am just being honest. I dont expect you to like it, but I do EXPECT you to respect it and allow me my opinion.

I have no desire to intentionally upset anyone and I have even intentionally kept away from this forum recently because of the extreme dysfunction and inconceivable levels of fear being promoted here. In 10+ years I have never seen such hostile and disrespectful and misguided posts on this forum as I have seen on this subject. Its a serious unmasking of some Dr Jekyll and Mr Hydes types among us.

Cant wait to see what happens next, thank god I have learned to make use of the ignore list, and thank god for the level headed among us who are not a stupid as I am to keep getting drawn back into this never ending carnival of fear.

Maybe if you even once posted the data that you assert are misleading we might get somewhere. Instead just another long tirade asserting that others are are upset

[DEJ]

Maybe if you even once posted the data that you assert are misleading we might get somewhere. Instead just another long tirade asserting that others are are upset

Go back to post 156 as I do not think he will be answering you.

[FlyingScot]

Go back to post 156 as I do not think he will be answering you.

No worries, my intended audience was the broader group (plus he will know it's there from your response :))

Back to the important point, though. While the experts have not been perfect (they're human), there is a gigantic body of evidence that the vaccines are safe, effective, and saving a huge number of lives. There is no intentionally misleading data or conspiracy as he gets so worked up about. Virtually everybody is better off getting vaccinated, for their own health and that of their families and friends.

[Garcia]

At my school we have had two symptomatic positive COVID cases this year which has led to students and teachers having to stay home and/or submit to daily testing to remain in school.

Both individuals who tested positive were not vaccinated.

I'm hard pressed to support school employees having the right to make their own decisions regarding vaccinations when I see first hand how it impacts innocent children and their parents/caregivers.

[thinkxingu]

I got my flu shot today and am hoping they've upgraded the microchips to 5G.

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[DEJ]

Back to the important point, though. While the experts have not been perfect (they're human), there is a gigantic body of evidence that the vaccines are safe, effective, and saving a huge number of lives. There is no intentionally misleading data or conspiracy as he gets so worked up about. Virtually everybody is better off getting vaccinated, for their own health and that of their families and friends.

That is your opinion, his differs from yours. So come on man, just let it go, agree to disagree, the both of you and move on.

[Seaplane Pilot]

No worries, my intended audience was the broader group (plus he will know it's there from your response :))

Back to the important point, though. While the experts have not been perfect (they're human), there is a gigantic body of evidence that the vaccines are safe, effective, and saving a huge number of lives. There is no intentionally misleading data or conspiracy as he gets so worked up about. Virtually everybody is better off getting vaccinated, for their own health and that of their families and friends.

I'm sure the hero police officer from Denver would wholeheartedly disagree with your comment that the vaccine is safe:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/denver-officer-says-lost-ability-115956979.html

[FlyingScot]

I'm sure the hero police officer from Denver would wholeheartedly disagree with your comment that the vaccine is safe:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/denver-officer-says-lost-ability-115956979.html

What a remarkable coincidence that this happened to a person in the midst of a lawyer-led vaccine resistance campaign....and nowhere else in the world. I look forward to following his lawsuit.

You might want to Google "lives saved by covid vaccine", and/or "risks of covid vaccine" to get a fuller picture

[Seaplane Pilot]

What a remarkable coincidence that this happened to a person in the midst of a lawyer-led vaccine resistance campaign....and nowhere else in the world. I look forward to following his lawsuit.

You might want to Google "lives saved by covid vaccine", and/or "risks of covid vaccine" to get a fuller picture

I’m sure that will make his kids feel much better…..:rolleye1:

[thinkxingu]

I’m sure that will make his kids feel much better…..:rolleye1:I'm sure the 175,000 kids who have lost their parents to Covid feel just as good.

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[XCR-700]

I got my flu shot today and am hoping they've upgraded the microchips to 5G.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I'm sure the 175,000 kids who have lost their parents to Covid feel just as good.

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And this is why this matter will never have agreement, more bogus numbers.

Every person that died and tested positive for COVID did not necessarily die from COVID, nor can you say they would have lived if they were vaccinated. Those will always be unknown numbers.

This is fearmongering of the worst kind and is whats stopping the country from moving forward, NOT any measure of vaccinate rates!

[TKD]

And this is why this matter will never have agreement, more bogus numbers.

Every person that died and tested positive for COVID did not necessarily die from COVID, nor can you say they would have lived if they were vaccinated. Those will always be unknown numbers.

This is fearmongering of the worst kind and is whats stopping the country from moving forward, NOT any measure of vaccinate rates!

You are 100% correct! Covey wrote about “first seek to understand, then be understood”. Unless it fits their narrative, some just don’t want to understand there is another side. Thanks for fighting the fight…

[FlyingScot]

And this is why this matter will never have agreement, more bogus numbers.

Every person that died and tested positive for COVID did not necessarily die from COVID, nor can you say they would have lived if they were vaccinated. Those will always be unknown numbers.

This is fearmongering of the worst kind and is whats stopping the country from moving forward, NOT any measure of vaccinate rates!

OTOH, maybe the reason we will never have agreement is the dismissal of things before they are understood--as our penpal TKD just pointed out.

The reason we "know" is that the numbers were published and peer-reviewed in the Journal of Pediatrics, a well respected source. They do not include non-covid deaths from people who tested positive. If you think they are bogus, please read the report and tell us specifically why.

[XCR-700]

You are 100% correct! Covey wrote about “first seek to understand, then be understood”. Unless it fits their narrative, some just don’t want to understand there is another side. Thanks for fighting the fight…

I only wish I could take credit for being right, but the real truth is there is not "right" about the vaccine being the best choice for everyone.

The truth of the matter is we have roughly 100 years of experience with vaccines, in evolutionary time that nothing, not even a sneeze.

And only in the last 50 years have we gotten kinda ok with it, but we certainly have not perfected this science.

And so when we say abracadabra presto boom with in months we have created a near 100% perfect vaccine that is the best thing for everyone, oh and everyone must take it or it wont work, then everyone should raise at least one eyebrow.

I find it amazing that so many here will tell you about the studies, and groups who have certified the vaccine as the best thing since we learned to wash our hands with soap before surgery, and that was less that 200 years ago,,,

The interweb is a wonderful invention, if you search you will find credible medical and scientific people saying the vaccine is much better then natural immunity, and then you will find equally credible medical and scientific people telling you natural immunity is much more effective than any vaccine. Sorry, there is not absolute in this based on our current level of science.

Bottom line is the vaccine is not a cure, it is not near 100% effective, it is not right for everyone NO ONE SHOULD BE FORCED TO TAKE IT.

The vaccine is a bandaid!

Now sometimes a bandaid is really good thing and it can be a life saver, but you cannot say with 100% surety that in this situation where the long term studies are not yet completed, and the world is so politically motivated, that we can stand on the soap box and demand everyone get vaccinated or they must be isolated from the rest of the world or untold countless people will die. We truly have no idea at this point in time how many have actually died from COVID as the data is so manipulated it is beyond excusable. A husband and wife murder-suicide who both had COVID and were both listed as COVID deaths, countless cancer patients who were on their deathbeds and tested positive for COVID were listed as COVID deaths, people who died in car accidents were listed as COVID deaths. Its become a political game with peopled lives being used as game pieces.

This is a medical and scientific and political nightmare.

The best we all can do is follow our own instinct, and practice common sense and stop worrying about the other guy.

If the vaccine is only effective if everyone gets it, then it is a failure as you will never reach 100% vaccination.

I personally think it is a tool in the tool box and probably a good one for most to have, its like a good adjustable wrench, but maybe not as good as a vice grip, and clearly it is not the one tool everyone need.

Get vaccinated or dont, but dont impose your medical fear and demands on anyone else.

I can only imagine how much uproar there would be if business owners and teachers and countless others started saying they refused to be around the vaccinated for any reason, the screams of mistreatment and injustice and discrimination would be deafening.

[thinkxingu]

The best we all can do is follow our own instinct, and practice common sense and stop worrying about the other guy.

Whoa.

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[XCR-700]

Whoa.

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You dont have to agree, just dont attempt to impose your fears or preferences on me, it wont sit well.

Oh, and your instinct can be for you to be vaccinated, and theres nothing wrong with encouraging others to be vaccinated, just not forced and not isolated/denied access/discriminated against because they chose not to.

[TKD]

Maybe some are too young to remember but Others lived through many things that were deemed safe and are no longer available because the science was wrong. Blind trust is dangerous and naïve ( bordering on ignorant). saccharine, DDT, asbestos, lead paint, agent orange side effects - shall we go on? Maybe it’s me being of the Vietnam era generation but why everybody believes the government 100% blindly is something I’ll never understand. Have a great night everyone.

[John Mercier]

You dont have to agree, just dont attempt to impose your fears or preferences on me, it wont sit well.

Oh, and your instinct can be for you to be vaccinated, and theres nothing wrong with encouraging others to be vaccinated, just not forced and not isolated/denied access/discriminated against because they chose not to.Again. If they have a choice, others have the choice not to interact with them if they choose. A choose must go both ways.

It is like in business, you have the choice to do as your employer wishes... and they have the choice to fire you should you not.

You have a choice to comply with the wishes of the business owner or the choice to go elsewhere.

I watched this at the Meredith McDonald's when they had their customer mask mandate. I had the choice to wear a mask, or use the drive through. Other than that, I could eat elsewhere.

They left the choice to me... but only a few felt they were being discriminated against because they could not enter without the mask.
If they wanted proof of vaccination, then I would need to show my card, use the drive through, or go elsewhere.

People are given lots of choices... but the choices have consequences.

[FlyingScot]

Maybe some are too young to remember but Others lived through many things that were deemed safe and are no longer available because the science was wrong. Blind trust is dangerous and naïve ( bordering on ignorant). saccharine, DDT, asbestos, lead paint, agent orange side effects - shall we go on? Maybe it’s me being of the Vietnam era generation but why everybody believes the government 100% blindly is something I’ll never understand. Have a great night everyone.

These are great examples and I agree we should not always trust the government or big business.

But in the case of these vaccines--unlike your examples--there is a very clear danger to individuals in not taking the vaccines and wearing masks--a 10-20X increased risk of covid.

The products that you list were also motivated by things other than health, and were not tested the way the vaccines have been.

So as I balance all those things, it's an easy decision to get jabbed

[TKD]

These are great examples and I agree we should not always trust the government or big business.

But in the case of these vaccines--unlike your examples--there is a very clear danger to individuals in not taking the vaccines and wearing masks--a 10-20X increased risk of covid.

The products that you list were also motivated by things other than health, and were not tested the way the vaccines have been.

So as I balance all those things, it's an easy decision to get jabbed

Many numbers/ “facts” are being stated as absolutes regardless of motivation. people are basing their decisions on these numbers. Firm believer in Absolute power corrupts absolutely! Lots of corruption and ulterior motives out there so these “ facts” bother me. I applaud you doing what you all believe is best for you. I just expect the same courtesy/ rights.

Going to spend some time in the water and freeze a little - have a great rest of your weekend folks.

[John Mercier]

Rights would be a protection from government, not the mass market.
And no Right is absolute, it is determined by legal precedence; generally SCOTUS rulings.

[TKD]

Rights would be a protection from government, not the mass market.

And no Right is absolute, it is determined by legal precedence; generally SCOTUS rulings.

Hate to be Captain Obvious here but Rights would be a protection of a person - regardless from whom.

Laws are deemed from legislation/ law makers up through SCOTUS when applicable.

[John Mercier]

No. Rights are protections from government only.
Any employer or trading partner (mass market) can place requirements on you without the force of legislation.

The only way to change that is to impede the free market... which is done through legislation/regulation.

[XCR-700]

Hate to be Captain Obvious here but Rights would be a protection of a person - regardless from whom.

Laws are deemed from legislation/ law makers up through SCOTUS when applicable.

Or more affirmatively stated, Rights are protections of an individual from everyone else, any organization, any group, or government.

They are not just some limited paper promise from some government entity.

Individual people can violate your right, stores can violate your rights, organizations can violate your rights, governments can violate your rights, and they all have and it actually happens a lot.

From an academic perspective:

What are rights?

Rights are conditions and protections that cannot be breached or taken away by others, even by the government or the state. In liberal democratic systems, every individual is assumed to have certain rights. It is the duty of the government and legal system to protect and uphold these rights. The idea of rights is not new, in fact, it dates back to the 1600s. English philosopher John Locke was one of the first to suggest that all people were born with ‘natural rights’. Locke described three fundamental rights: the right to life, the right to liberty (freedom) and the right to property (to have one’s belongings safe from theft or seizure). Ever since the days of Locke, people have struggled and fought to defend or expand their rights. Some notable rights-based struggles included the American and French Revolutions; the anti-slavery and abolition movements of the 19th century; the American civil rights movement in the 1960s; and the Aboriginal land rights campaign in Australia. The struggle for rights still continues in many parts of the world, in places like Myanmar (Burma), Tibet, Iran and many African nations.

[TKD]

Or more affirmatively stated, Rights are protections of an individual from everyone else, any organization, any group, or government.

They are not just some limited paper promise from some government entity.

Individual people can violate your right, stores can violate your rights, organizations can violate your rights, governments can violate your rights, and they all have and it actually happens a lot.

From an academic perspective:

What are rights?

Rights are conditions and protections that cannot be breached or taken away by others, even by the government or the state. In liberal democratic systems, every individual is assumed to have certain rights. It is the duty of the government and legal system to protect and uphold these rights. The idea of rights is not new, in fact, it dates back to the 1600s. English philosopher John Locke was one of the first to suggest that all people were born with ‘natural rights’. Locke described three fundamental rights: the right to life, the right to liberty (freedom) and the right to property (to have one’s belongings safe from theft or seizure). Ever since the days of Locke, people have struggled and fought to defend or expand their rights. Some notable rights-based struggles included the American and French Revolutions; the anti-slavery and abolition movements of the 19th century; the American civil rights movement in the 1960s; and the Aboriginal land rights campaign in Australia. The struggle for rights still continues in many parts of the world, in places like Myanmar (Burma), Tibet, Iran and many African nations.

Agreed and well said- thank you[emoji106] Unfortunately others think they are infallible. - thinking in absolutes. Those are the ones that scare me.

[John Mercier]

And those ''rights'' never existed.
The Right to Life, Liberty, and Property only exists for as long as you can hold it.

An entity contracting with you can set any guidelines for that interaction.
Those ''rights'' are removed by the contractual agreement that you enter.

For instance, an employer cannot hold you down and vaccinate you... but an employer is not required to provide you with employment - employed at will.

A merchant cannot hold you down and vaccinate you... but they may choose not to cater to you - select clientele

I cannot hold you down and vaccinate you... but I do not have to interact with you - shun/ostracism.

Government is a lot less powerful than social interactions in the free market.

So when someone claims a ''right'', it usually they do not want to suffer the negative consequences of their actions/choices.

[FlyingScot]

Agreed and well said- thank you[emoji106] Unfortunately others think they are infallible. - thinking in absolutes. Those are the ones that scare me.

Ummm---pretty sure you just posted that businesses and organizations do not have rights or cannot have their rights infringed upon? That seems absolute to me.

You may remember that a Supreme Court (that you support?) has ruled in favor of business rights numerous times recently--political donations, labor rules, free speech, etc

[TKD]

Ummm---pretty sure you just posted that businesses and organizations do not have rights or cannot have their rights infringed upon? That seems absolute to me.

You may remember that a Supreme Court (that you support?) has ruled in favor of business rights numerous times recently--political donations, labor rules, free speech, etc

Typical attack attack attack. One should never use the word “you” in a discussion. Makes it personal and naturally puts people on the defensive.

Never posted that nor believe on item#1

Agree with SCOTUS on item #2

Have a great day.

[John Mercier]

Then the you have a dichotomy.

Either the business has the Right to act in its own interest, or it doesn't.

[fatlazyless]

3-cheers (sarcasm alert-:rolleye2:) for the four Republican members of the Executive Council who all voted NO to not accept the $27-mil in federal vaccination funding for New Hampshire.

New Hampshire don't need no 27-million dollars from Uncle Sam for vaccination funding ......LIve Free and/or Die!

Gov Chris Sununu said: "The vote showed a reckless disregard for the lives we are losing while they turn away the tools our state needs to fight and win this battle against COVID," Sununu said .......yes, he did say this according to WMUR-tv video.

updated Oct 14 2021 from Oct 13: https://www.wmur.com/article/new-hampshire-executive-council-protests-oct-13-2021/37948586

Gov Sununu said he did not know of any other state that turned down vaccination funding, and it is likely the $27-mil will wind up going to a large state like New York or California.

From NHPR, Oct 13 2021 ...... www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2021-10-13/nh-executive-council-rejects-27-million-in-federal-contracts-related-to-covid-vaccination-efforts ..... rejects $27-mil federal contracts covid vaccination efforts

Ok, so why did all four Republican executive councilors all say NO ...... :eek: ..... to accepting this $27-mil federal grant .... making N.H. the only state to say NO ..... :eek:?

Will do a little research here and try to find some fantastic interesting quote comments from the individual councilors about the WHY they chose to say NO.

[thinkxingu]

I got my flu shot today and am hoping they've upgraded the microchips to 5G.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

A student of mine sent this across today. I hadn't heard about it, but it fits pretty well into this thread. https://www.dazeddigital.com/politics/article/55037/1/a-brief-explainer-on-gen-z-s-birds-aren-t-real-conspiracy-theory

Also, anyone hear from XCR-700? He's not been active since November.