West Alton Marina manager arrest for alleged sex crimes

[nvmbr9]

Anyone know the full story here?

[mcdude]

Here's the link from the daily Sun
https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/courts_cops/man-charged-with-sex-crimes-against-teens-at-alton-marina/article_8c926a48-ff82-11eb-9bf2-a7759aca1894.html

[joey2665]

Here's the link from the daily Sun
https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/courts_cops/man-charged-with-sex-crimes-against-teens-at-alton-marina/article_8c926a48-ff82-11eb-9bf2-a7759aca1894.html

I had seen this two days ago but I was very hesitant to post due to the nature of the charges against the employee


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[DickR]

I hope this forum and the media in general will be very careful not to delve too deeply into this, and will be super sensitive to the privacy of the victims. Let the court deal with the perpetrator, quietly (and harshly if found guilty).

[Slickcraft]

I hope this forum and the media in general will be very careful not to delve too deeply into this, and will be super sensitive to the privacy of the victims. Let the court deal with the perpetrator, quietly (and harshly if found guilty).

I agree, hence I did not start a thread. Time to end the discussion here.


Alan

[Mr. V]

I agree, hence I did not start a thread. Time to end the discussion here.

Certainly there should be no identification of the young victims, but the alleged perpetrator should not "get a bye."

As details become available and are made public I see nothing wrong with reporting them here, as this story clearly is of public interest.

[TiltonBB]

The owner, Brian A. Fortier, 50, was indicted by a Belknap County Grand Jury on April 21, on several felonies.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/west-alton-marina-owner-indicted-for-sex-assault-witness-tampering/article_e5522a82-c5a3-11ec-a30d-f3d9dce2a182.html

[Descant]

We've been through this before when the courts told a business owner to divest and not associate with others in the business. Nothing to se here, folks. Move along.

[TiltonBB]

We've been through this before when the courts told a business owner to divest and not associate with others in the business. Nothing to se here, folks. Move along.

That could happen here. There are already inquiries happening by at least one other marina owner should the property be sold.

At this point it might be nice to see a change of ownership. After front page stories, and whatever else comes out in public as the legal process continues, it will be difficult to move beyond this.

[tis]

Where was the other owner or owners when all this was happening?

[GilfordSonny]

The owner was arrested on similar charges as the manager was last year. And if the allegations are proved to be true I think it would be a little slice of justice if the alleged victims end up owning the marina, or the cash that a sale would generate.

[bchbum]

Hide your kids if you have a slip there

[FlyingScot]

The owner was arrested on similar charges as the manager was last year. And if the allegations are proved to be true I think it would be a little slice of justice if the alleged victims end up owning the marina, or the cash that a sale would generate.

This is one of those funny things where it's a shock that there are two of them, and then on reflection it makes perfect sense that they live together. On the other side of the equation, we should not be surprised if there are more victims than we know of today.

[tis]

The owner was arrested on similar charges as the manager was last year. And if the allegations are proved to be true I think it would be a little slice of justice if the alleged victims end up owning the marina, or the cash that a sale would generate.

On WMUR it said ONE of the owners, so I wonder where the other owner (s) were when all this was happening. And yes, apparently the manager and the one owner are a couple.

[TiltonBB]

On WMUR it said ONE of the owners, so I wonder where the other owner (s) were when all this was happening. And yes, apparently the manager and the one owner are a couple.

The other owner is Fortier's sister but she has a different last name.

[tis]

The other owner is Fortier's sister but she has a different last name.

Ok thanks. Well, sister and brother, no wonder.

[lagoon]

We've been through this before when the courts told a business owner to divest and not associate with others in the business. Nothing to se here, folks. Move along.
This does not surprise me at all. I have dealt with him and his partner and felt the overtones of what has happened here. He was particularly rude last time I was at his business and will never go back there no matter what unless he's not involved. I will say his sister was very gracious but that does not make up for him. Should this all be proven true he will no longer be in the marina business I am quite sure.

I do remember the statement below from the owner. Now it appears this statement was issued while he was alleged to be asking victims to not report the crimes accurately, which itself is a crime.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

During the same time that Fortier was alleged to have been pressuring witnesses to withhold information from investigators, he provided the following statement to The Laconia Daily Sun:

​​“Our family is shocked and deeply saddened by the disturbing allegations against former employee John Murray," wrote Fortier. “Our hearts are broken and our thoughts and prayers are with everyone affected. We have hired outside counsel and consultants to undertake a thorough review of this matter. We will use this information to adapt policies and procedures that will ensure a safe environment for employees and the public. We will continue to carry on the vision of our parents and grandparents and dedicate our lives to making West Alton Marina a fun, loving, family destination.”

[TiltonBB]

Well, you knew this was coming, it was just a matter of time.

"The suit also alleges that employees (including the plaintiff) that spurned Murray’s advances were punished by receiving harder responsibilities and being denied work hours. Those that capitulated were rewarded with “favorable performance reviews, assigning easier responsibilities, assigning more and better work hours, and in other ways.”

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/victim-in-alleged-sex-assault-sues-west-alton-marina-owners-manager/article_adfc2ffa-c71b-11ec-83c4-af184ab0a2bd.html

[Woodsy]

Looks like this kid's family is smart... Not sure what the liability limits are, but I am sure this is just the first of many lawsuits.

I don't think this is the last of it... Should be interesting to see who else this tangled web might ensnare.



Woodsy

[codeman671]

This one may be hard to recover from. I would imagine that their business certainly won't be affected much as slips are so scarce, but would think this will hurt their ability to hire seasonal employees which will trickle down to customer treatment. Probably some major conflict within the family/partners as well. Buyout or complete sale?

[Mr. V]

Probably some major conflict within the family/partners as well. Buyout or complete sale?

I know nothing of this family and their wealth but unless they're very well-heeled he'll probably need to sell his interest in the business to pay for top-notch attorneys to defend him.

[TiltonBB]

A co-owner of the West Alton Marina, who was recently charged with sexual assault, has been jailed for allegedly having unsupervised contact with a minor in violation of the terms of his bail.

On Monday Superior Court Judge Jacki Smith ordered Fortier to be held at the county jail until he was outfitted with an electronic monitoring ankle bracelet and placed under the oversight of the Correction Department’s pretrial services office.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/courts_cops/marina-owner-jailed-for-breach-of-bail-contact-with-minor/article_475adbd2-d21c-11ec-9149-0bf97e28bdd6.html

[FlyingScot]

I'm good with innocent until proven guilty, but this bail is a joke. First, it's only $10K for a guy facing serious time and plenty of assets. Second, he violates bail in a way that's in direct relation to the case (as opposed to, say, drug possession or a bar fight), and they're going to let him right back out?

[TiltonBB]

Now you know what happened to the Gilford Police Chief and why he resigned.

One of the suits alleges that Murray told the plaintiff that it would be useless for him to go to police because he was having sex with the Gilford police chief and another officer and so was “untouchable.”

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/courts_cops/suit-alleges-ex-gilford-police-chief-had-affair-with-murray/article_a4e8c43a-d55a-11ec-99c4-7763d4720ec6.html

[Woodsy]

I figured the happenings were related...

Woodsy

[Lake Fan]

Looks like Alton's got a regular Peyton Place on steroids happening.

I wonder how far the rot goes?

[Susie Cougar]

The sad thing is that there are children involved, as well. I can only imagine what the parents are going through.

[CaptT820]

We have launched our boat at West Alton Marina for six years now and have interacted with everyone involved with this case at one point or another. Our camp is on Sleeper, which is across from the marina and very convenient for us to use. We are not comfortable launching there now, knowing that our money is going to essentially pay for lawyers.

This is certainly an inconvenience for us to launch somewhere else, but worth it to not finance this enterprise anymore.

I agree with others regarding slip demand and how this will affect their business short term, but a change of ownership would be refreshing here.

Naivety is not a defense of the law. Owning the business, entails knowing what is going on with the business.

[codeman671]

Granted they are not typically in my travels, but I will not give them a dime going forward. I will run out of gas and get a tow first.

But if they are looking to sell out, I would like to invest! Time to flush the scum out of there and make it a safe environment.

[Mr. V]

But if they are looking to sell out, I would like to invest! Time to flush the scum out of there and make it a safe environment.

IIRC< two of the owners are sisters of the alleged perpetrator and they've not been charged with any crime; how are these two ladies "scum?"

[Patiently Watching]

The owners of West Alton Marine have allowed/encouraged an environment of lies and abuse that have caused life long damage to the victims.
It is hard to imagine anyone spending their money at the establishment knowing what has gone on there.... How do you sleep at night?
The civil lawsuits should ultimately result in a full overhaul of ownership as the damages could be in the tens of millions $$$.

[TiltonBB]

Since there are very few available boat slips now it will be difficult for anyone using that marina to relocate. It would be nice, as a matter of principal, for someone to say I refuse to spend my money there but would someone miss a boating season for that? I doubt it.


It will be interesting to see how this all sorts out. There is a 2020 $5 million loan from Meredith Village Savings bank for the construction and expansion that the bank is worried about now. Any potential buyer will have to deal with that.

If this ends up at a foreclosure auction the bank will probably have their attorney there to bid it up to get the sale price to close to or over the amount that is owed. That is what usually happens.

This issue will be going on for a while. There are no quick solutions and any news coming out in the near future will probably not be good news.

[MeredithMan]

I just started a new role with a new company a week ago and completed their sexual harassment training as part of my onboarding. The scenarios in the training videos are always a bit extreme and obvious to get the point across and they always state something to the effect of, "...harassment can have severe financial consequences on you and your employer".

As I've read the intertwined stories of the Gilford Police Chief and the Marina, it's like an extreme training video scenario. "You can't go to the cops, because I'm doing the Police Chief..."

If this all proves true at trial, hopefully these creeps are all locked up, the marina sold, and the money awarded to the victims.

[Susie Cougar]

IIRC< two of the owners are sisters of the alleged perpetrator and they've not been charged with any crime; how are these two ladies "scum?"

And you think they had no information or knowledge about what was going on? Come on, having sex with the chief of police. It sounds like he was bragging about it.

[steve-on-mark]

We can all speculate until we're blue in the face, but I feel like some things are better left unsaid. I'm sure that whoever will be investigating this nonsense will do a good and thorough job, all the facts will come out, and justice will fall where it may.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[codeman671]

IIRC< two of the owners are sisters of the alleged perpetrator and they've not been charged with any crime; how are these two ladies "scum?"

I didn't specifically call the two ladies "scum", I was referring to the brother and husband. But, it has already been alleged that the OWNERS were aware of what was going on and did nothing to stop it. From the Laconia Daily Sun article previously posted:


"ALTON — Four former employees have now filed suit against the West Alton Marina alleging that they were subject to sexual assault and harassment by the facility’s former manager, John Murray, and further alleging that marina’s owners failed to intervene to stop the behavior.

One of the suits alleges that Murray told the plaintiff that it would be useless for him to go to police because he was having sex with the Gilford police chief and another officer and so was “untouchable.”

In addition to Murray, the suits name marina owners Brian Fortier, and Fortier’s sisters, Deidre Tibbetts and Allyson Shea, as defendants."

[Boatbottom952]

Since there are very few available boat slips now it will be difficult for anyone using that marina to relocate. It would be nice, as a matter of principal, for someone to say I refuse to spend my money there but would someone miss a boating season for that? I doubt it.


It will be interesting to see how this all sorts out. There is a 2020 $5 million loan from Meredith Village Savings bank for the construction and expansion that the bank is worried about now. Any potential buyer will have to deal with that.

If this ends up at a foreclosure auction the bank will probably have their attorney there to bid it up to get the sale price to close to or over the amount that is owed. That is what usually happens.

This issue will be going on for a while. There are no quick solutions and any news coming out in the near future will probably not be good news.

It would be nice, as a matter of principal, for someone to say I refuse to spend my money there but would someone miss a boating season for that? I doubt it.

So what you are saying is Rich Boaters will put their FUN in front of their MORALS. Is this correct?

[Mr. V]

I didn't specifically call the two ladies "scum", I was referring to the brother and husband. But, it has already been alleged that the OWNERS were aware of what was going on and did nothing to stop it.

I haven't read anywhere that the co-owners, i.e. the sisters, actually knew about the alleged sex abuse until the story broke.

Do you really think the perpetrator(s) would keep the ladies briefed regularly as to what they did / were doing?

No, I suspect that it was "secret stuff."

Alas, the sisters will likely become unwitting victims as well and lose it all.

[XCR-700]

Oh god, could this be more sickening,,,

The only other word that comes to mind is tragic.

How does such madness happen in 2022 and in a place like Winnipesaukee.

Its almost unbelievable. This is the kind of thing you expect to here behind the curtain in some communist 3rd world country, but not here.

[upthesaukee]

In a perfect world, boat owners could just say I'm out of here. Easier said than done.

I kept my 25 ft bowrider at WAM for a few years. If you wanted to dock the following year, you needed to store the boat during the off-season with WAM. There also was a downpayment on the docking charge in the fall and I believe a $1000 installment due Feb 1 with the balance before the boat is launched in the spring.

I looked for our old records from WAM , but after we sold the boat in 2019, we purged the records from our file cabinet. If memory serves me, we paid about $3800 to dock, and had a fall downpayment of about a third, so somewhere around $1300-1500. Add to that $1000 in Feb, and about 2/3 of the fee for the year has been paid. I personally could not walk away from that and start over even if I could find a dock. (You know that they would not just give you the money back)

IMHO, those who are there will have a choice in late summer about what they will do for the 2023 season. For this year, they are pretty much stuck.

One comment about the defendants in any lawsuit like these. The plaintiffs will name "everyone" who could possibly be involved initially, which later may be reduced as the lawsuit winds its through the court system. That we will all have to wait and see.

Dave

[FlyingScot]

Oh god, could this be more sickening,,,

The only other word that comes to mind is tragic.

How does such madness happen in 2022 and in a place like Winnipesaukee.

Its almost unbelievable. This is the kind of thing you expect to here behind the curtain in some communist 3rd world country, but not here.

Agree on tragic and sickening. But I think we've seen very clearly over the past 10 years or so that depravity does not know politics, religion, and other espoused values. It's happened in hundreds of American churches and scout troops, so a marina should not be a surprise (though I admit I'm surprised). If you see something, say something...

[LikeLakes]

Without making accusations of things I/we don't know the full details of, it seems like we can all agree that a sale of the business to a new owner would be a positive step, to an owner that appreciated and supported their team of employees going forward. I have a feeling this may happen sooner rather than later due to the bank involvement described above. No reason for it to be a fire sale auction, there is a ton of value in that marina and the bank would cooperate with a new owner. I'd be shocked if behind the scenes discussions were not already happening about this.

[SailinAway]

Agree on tragic and sickening. But I think we've seen very clearly over the past 10 years or so that depravity does not know politics, religion, and other espoused values. It's happened in hundreds of American churches and scout troops, so a marina should not be a surprise (though I admit I'm surprised). If you see something, say something...

XCR-700 asked, "How does such madness happen in 2022 and in a place like Winnipesaukee?" There are a few causes of pedophilia, but we need to separate the causes within the perpetrators from detection and reporting. In some posts in this thread we see an aversion to talking about pedophilia, a hush-hush tone. Why? Because sex crimes are embarrassing? Shameful? When this aversion is conveyed to children and adolescents, they are less likely to report pedophilia to their parents, guidance counselors, or the police. It's hard to prosecute a hidden crime or fix a hidden social condition. Of course, this crime is the opposite of the life we associate with the Lakes Region, so it's understandable that some people would prefer not to talk about it in this forum. (But we talk about plenty of other unsavory things, like high taxes, Covid wars, etc.) Silence isn't going to help this problem.

[John Mercier]

Liability insurance may cover any civil action.

[TiltonBB]

I'd be shocked if behind the scenes discussions were not already happening about this.

There have been discussions with at least two major players.


Liability insurance may cover any civil action.

Most liability insurance policies have an exclusion for criminal acts. I would be surprised if their policy does not have that.

[dickiej]

I’m confused….admittedly, I haven’t been reading following all the details…is the police chief male or female?

[mcdude]

what difference would that make?

[John Mercier]

The two sisters are third-party.
The insurance would need to determine their direct involvement with the crimes and the oversight of operation. If simply negligent as silent partners... I suspect they would be covered.

[SailinAway]

I’m confused….admittedly, I haven’t been reading following all the details…is the police chief male or female?

I believe the reference is to Gilford police chief Anthony Bean Burpee, so male. Mcdude asks what difference that would make. I guess some jobs have some kind of "morality clause" but I don't know what those standards are. Morality can be hard to determine. In this day and age homosexuality is no longer immoral for more than half of the country (judging from the acceptance of gay marriage both legally and in the public perception). But having a relationship with a pedophile (a criminal) would impugn a public servant. Apparently people who violate morality norms are at risk of blackmail, which impairs their ability to perform their duties. Heterosexual relationships between employees of the same company or agency are sometimes prohibited because they create boundary issues like favoritism and power imbalances. Legally, I don't think it matters whether the Gilford police chief is male or female or gay or straight, but I think a connection to a pedophile would matter a great deal, which may be why he resigned.

[AC2717]

I believe the reference is to Gilford police chief Anthony Bean Burpee, so male. Mcdude asks what difference that would make. I guess some jobs have some kind of "morality clause" but I don't know what those standards are. Morality can be hard to determine. In this day and age homosexuality is no longer immoral for more than half of the country (judging from the acceptance of gay marriage both legally and in the public perception). But having a relationship with a pedophile (a criminal) would impugn a public servant. Apparently people who violate morality norms are at risk of blackmail, which impairs their ability to perform their duties. Heterosexual relationships between employees of the same company or agency are sometimes prohibited because they create boundary issues like favoritism and power imbalances. Legally, I don't think it matters whether the Gilford police chief is male or female or gay or straight, but I think a connection to a pedophile would matter a great deal.

Also at the same time, the police chief was allegedly having an affair with another man, it cannot be expected that he knew what the other man was doing as well.
I would imagine he stepped down due to the investigation on the sex crimes revealed his infidelity and as stated above, from a morality standpoint not a good look for the Police chief to be stepping out in any circumstance, and then the possible connection to what the other person on top of it.

[John Mercier]

Possibly the off chance that a charge of Official Oppression could be registered.
If further investigation revealed that the Chief was doing as the accused stated and setting aside complaints rather than investigating them.

None of us will really know for some time as cases take a while to make it through the court system.

[jeffk]

As far as I know, the owner is still in charge of the marina. As a young person, would you want to be working for this terrible excuse for a human being? Would a responsible parent want their kids working there? Would you want to be working there if you were an adult? Grant that an adult may need a steady paycheck but other options have to be available and I would be looking for another job ASAP.

As a customer, I would be worried about reliable service amidst the chaos, as well as moral concerns of supporting such a group of owners.

A sale of the marina might resolve these problems but that is not happening right away.

[TiltonBB]

Possibly the off chance that a charge of Official Oppression could be registered.
If further investigation revealed that the Chief was doing as the accused stated and setting aside complaints rather than investigating them.

None of us will really know for some time as cases take a while to make it through the court system.

It is not within the scope of the Gilford Chief's authority to investigate crimes in Alton. He wouldn't be setting aside complaints because they allege crimes committed in Alton, out of his jurisdiction.

[John Mercier]

Then using his official status to interfere.

It doesn't make a huge amount of sense to resign for something that isn't going to magically go away... nor would it be criminal on his part.

What are they going to do... fire him for being bi/homosexual?
Not like the Town of Gilford could afford that lawsuit.

[tis]

I heard on tv that he couldn't do his job because somebody could threaten to "out" him. Sort of like blackmail I guess so they couldn't be charged with a crime.

[John Mercier]

Well, technically... he is outed.
So why leave?

[tis]

Well, technically... he is outed.
So why leave?

I think he left before he was outed.

[upthesaukee]

Back in 2014, he discussed being gay and was one of the first gay police chiefs. It's not like he was being "outed" by all this.

Dave

[tis]

Back in 2014, he discussed being gay and was one of the first gay police chiefs. It's not like he was being "outed" by all this.

Dave

I think by outed they meant more than just the fact he is gay. More like they knew what was going on.

[John Mercier]

Outed mean homosexual.

If he knew more, and didn't act, he could be criminally charged.
That could even put the Town of Gilford in the sights of the lawyers.

If the marina's insurance won't cover the suit, and the marina may not be as deep a well as some think, moving toward the ex-Chief and the town would be the next well.

[tis]

Outed mean homosexual.

If he knew more, and didn't act, he could be criminally charged.
That could even put the Town of Gilford in the sights of the lawyers.

If the marina's insurance won't cover the suit, and the marina may not be as deep a well as some think, moving toward the ex-Chief and the town would be the next well.

I would have to be living in a cave if I didn't know what outed means.

[TiltonBB]

Outed mean homosexual.

If he knew more, and didn't act, he could be criminally charged.
That could even put the Town of Gilford in the sights of the lawyers.

If the marina's insurance won't cover the suit, and the marina may not be as deep a well as some think, moving toward the ex-Chief and the town would be the next well.
He cannot act on something that is outside his jurisdiction. The Gilford Police Chief has no power in Alton so there is nothing for him to act on.

The town of Gilford has no liability in this matter. What an employee does on his own time in a different town is not the responsibility of the town.

Being named in the investigation as having been somehow involved in this out of town matter may reflect poorly on him but unless his conduct was criminal it will end there. If there was no criminal conduct on his part, and what happens between two consenting adults is not criminal, then it will end there.

It remains to be seen if there is more to the story.

Attachments of more than $6 million worth of assets are being sought against West Alton Marina and its owners by four plaintiffs who have filed civil suits. The plaintiffs are asking the court to seize a total of $6,750,000 in assets to ensure there will be funds available to pay any any damages that might be awarded as part of the final judgment in their cases.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/courts_cops/marina-suit-plaintiffs-seek-attachments-of-6m-plus/article_f61b460e-d86e-11ec-a165-c7223ec8eb3b.html

[John Mercier]

Sorry, but as a part of his office... he must forward the complaint.
So yes, he would have had the power to act and chose not to... if it is determined that he knew of the situation.

''A public servant, as defined in RSA 640:2, II, is guilty of a misdemeanor if, with a purpose to benefit himself or another or to harm another, he knowingly commits an unauthorized act which purports to be an act of his office; or knowingly refrains from performing a duty imposed on him by law or clearly inherent in the nature of his office.''

The town would have an employee that committed a crime, just like the marina.
The town could be held liable for the actions of the employee, just like the marina.

The nature of his employment, in this situation, does not allow for ''personal'' time.

[SailinAway]

In any case, under NH law everyone is required to report abuse of a minor or elderly person.

[mcdude]

I agree, hence I did not start a thread. Time to end the discussion here.
Alan


Just a comment: This topic has been explored appropriately and with prudence IMHO. No names have been named and no ugly off-topic comments have been made. I applaud you, fellow forumites.

[TiltonBB]

Sorry, but as a part of his office... he must forward the complaint.
So yes, he would have had the power to act and chose not to... if it is determined that he knew of the situation.

''A public servant, as defined in RSA 640:2, II, is guilty of a misdemeanor if, with a purpose to benefit himself or another or to harm another, he knowingly commits an unauthorized act which purports to be an act of his office; or knowingly refrains from performing a duty imposed on him by law or clearly inherent in the nature of his office.''

The town would have an employee that committed a crime, just like the marina.
The town could be held liable for the actions of the employee, just like the marina.

The nature of his employment, in this situation, does not allow for ''personal'' time.

Your post is full of speculation. You are jumping to conclusions not supported by the evidence. There has been no evidence thus far that the Chief broke any laws.

Forward the complaint? There has been nothing revealed so far to determine that the Chief got any complaints.

This was in the news: "One of the suits alleges that Murray told the plaintiff that it would be useless for him to go to police because he was having sex with the Gilford police chief and another officer and so was “untouchable.”

That sentence doesn't say that the Chief did anything wrong or illegal. He is not responsible for Murray's claims, and may not even be aware of them. It is legal for the Chief to have a relationship with Murray.

The town would have an employee that committed a crime? What crime? There has been no evidence thus far that the chief knew of the illegal activities of Murray and his partner, only a claim by Murray that had had a relationship with the chief.

The nature of his employment does not allow for personal time? So in a jurisdiction where he has no police powers, when he is not at work, and where you have no facts to show he knew of any crimes, you still think he "refrained from a duty imposed upon him by law?" And, you think the town of Gilford is somehow liable?

If, as you claim, he has no personal time, and the town is somehow liable for his actions all the time, and must report crimes, would you say the town of Gilford was somehow responsible if the Chief failed to report a violation of law, say, while vacationing in California? You know, like saw a speeder in a car but didn't report it?

[John Mercier]

If you have been reading... we are speculating why the resignation?

It wasn't because he was homosexual. So what was it?

If he knew... or even suspected... do to interaction with any of the parties... his duty is to move it to the Alton Chief and the AG.

And no, a police chief can not state ''I was off duty when the crime happened''... ''I was off duty when suspicion of a crime was happening''... ''I heard the rumor when I was off duty''.

The law does not allow for that.

[TiltonBB]

If you have been reading... we are speculating why the resignation?

It wasn't because he was homosexual. So what was it?

If he knew... or even suspected... do to interaction with any of the parties... his duty is to move it to the Alton Chief and the AG.

And no, a police chief can not state ''I was off duty when the crime happened''... ''I was off duty when suspicion of a crime was happening''... ''I heard the rumor when I was off duty''.

The law does not allow for that.

"We" are not speculating. I am speaking of known facts and pointing out where your speculation does not agree with the facts.
Possibly the off chance that a charge of Official Oppression could be registered.
If further investigation revealed that the Chief was doing as the accused stated and setting aside complaints rather than investigating them.

None of us will really know for some time as cases take a while to make it through the court system.

You are the only one speculating, and doing so with a lack of information and distortion of the actual facts. Among other errors, the accused (Murray) never stated that the Chief was setting aside complaints. Murray said that there was no point in going to the police because of his relationship with the Chief. You turned that into the accused stating the chief was setting aside complaints, and added the possibility of official oppression.

At this point, what is known is the Chief may have had a relationship with Murray. That is all. There has been no public accusation of anything illegal on the part of the Chief. Turning that into liability for the town is, at this time, a stretch. More information will certainly come out as the legal process continues.

[TiltonBB]

The financial aspects of this matter should be interesting.

The accusers families have asked for an attachment of over $6 million on the marina. Meredith Village Savings Bank has a mortgage of over $5 million on the property. That will total over $11 million in liens, if nothing else comes up.

Looking at recent sales and comparing what Channel Marine and Thurston's Marina sold for it is hard to see a property valuation that will be anywhere near that for West Alton Marina.

[John Mercier]

"We" are not speculating. I am speaking of known facts and pointing out where your speculation does not agree with the facts.


You are the only one speculating, and doing so with a lack of information and distortion of the actual facts. Among other errors, the accused (Murray) never stated that the Chief was setting aside complaints. Murray said that there was no point in going to the police because of his relationship with the Chief. You turned that into the accused stating the chief was setting aside complaints, and added the possibility of official oppression.

At this point, what is known is the Chief may have had a relationship with Murray. That is all. There has been no public accusation of anything illegal on the part of the Chief. Turning that into liability for the town is, at this time, a stretch. More information will certainly come out as the legal process continues.
No. If you read the posts... different people posted on what might be the reason for his resignation.

Since it isn't his sexuality... and no one can think of a good reason... I speculated that he may have had some insight into rumors, and failure to pass those to other authorities would be official oppression.

So far. No one has come up with any reason that he would resign. People knew he was homosexual. He isn't the first official, even a local police chief to have an adulterous affair... not even news around here... and the only time it has been news is when the official failed their duty.

Even a misdemeanor conviction against a police officer is not that unusual... so I am open minded as to what it may be.

Personally, I don't think it is any more of a stretch than the silent partner sisters. They didn't commit the claimed acts; we don't even know if they had heard any rumors or had any knowledge of it.

What we know is that well is only so deep, and we don't know what property was pledged in support of the bank note. Was it just the marina, or did it include homes and other property?

The chief's resignation seems odd with the history that we have around here.

[winni83]

The existence of the mortgage and the attachment liens, if they are upheld, will certainly impact any voluntary sale. But a foreclosure of the mortgage will extinguish the attachments, with the proviso that any excess foreclosure sale proceeds above the amount owed to the mortgagee will go first to valid junior lienors and then to the owner. This assumes that taxes and other municipal liens are current. Candidate for a Chapter 11 filing?

[Descant]

Not part of this thread directly, but I am under the impression that WAM planned some major upgrades and/or expansion. If that is the case, and the work has not been done, the bank may still have some of the funds held back and the eventual debt could be much less. Is there work in progress? If I were a contractor, I'd want payment in advance. It would probably sell for more if it went condo.

[camp guy]

I think what mcdude had to say last evening was appropriate, but I fear that as this thread moves through time it (the thread) could easily deteriorate into something rather unseemly. Maybe it is time to let this topic rest and move on to topics more about boating, restaurants, and lake life.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Before we let it rest, may I mention the best selling novel, Peyton Place, written by Grace Metalious (sic) about a small NH town. Does this ring a bell? At the time, it was s shocking tale. Hmmm…

[Mr. V]

Speculation: Perhaps the chief resigned because he suspected his relationship with one of the accused would become known and cast him in a bad light, personally and professionally.

Question: did he resign before the story of the sexual abuse broke in the media?

If so, perhaps he knew about it and figured "Uh oh, I'm in an impossible position."

If he resigned after it broke then he probably read the hand writing on the wall and left to avoid further scandal.

Sad, either way: it seems he was a competent policeman; hopefully he'll do OK elsewhere.

[John Mercier]

Shocking at the time.
Today it would be rather tepid.

Winni83... I think I am more questioning what the final sales value would be?
It obviously speculation... but rising interest rates and the shadow of a serious recession... simply make me wonder if there would be enough to even come close to covering the lawsuit; should it come to that.

I can't seem to find records on incorporation... but it may be that I am not looking under the correct name.

[winni83]

John, the name is West Alton Marina, LLC. It is a Delaware LLC registered to do business in NH.

https://quickstart.sos.nh.gov/online/BusinessInquire/BusinessInformation?businessID=4731

[SailinAway]

No. If you read the posts... different people posted on what might be the reason for his resignation. . . . The chief's resignation seems odd with the history that we have around here.

Sometimes people resign hastily to head off an investigation. That doesn't indicate guilt, though. It seems unlikely that the resignation is completely unrelated to the marina affair, given the timing. That would seem to indicate that the chief foresaw that the investigation into Murray would turn up something unfavorable to the chief that would result in his firing. Better to quit than be fired. I'm only speculating.

[John Mercier]

That was my thoughts.
But I just can't imagine what.

I just can't imagine that the lawyer working for the plaintiffs would not pursue that.
It may lead to nothing, but advocating for your client should lead you somewhat in that direction.

[SailinAway]

That was my thoughts. But I just can't imagine what. I just can't imagine that the lawyer working for the plaintiffs would not pursue that. It may lead to nothing, but advocating for your client should lead you somewhat in that direction.

The chief must have resigned based on legal advice, indicating that what the public doesn't know about his case is not small. NHPR, May 3: "[The chief] had been on paid leave since Jan. 10. He has been the subject of a criminal investigation by the Public Integrity Unit of the state Attorney General‘s Criminal Justice Bureau." Four months later, the AG apparently had discovered enough to convince Bean Burpee to resign.

This statement by Brian Fortier is pretty strange and disingenuous given that he was or is married to John Murray, according to the lawsuit: "Our family is shocked and deeply saddened by the disturbing allegations against former employee John Murray."

[CaptT820]

I agree with others, that until we have more information, there isnt much else to say on this topic from an evidence standpoint. However, it does affect many boaters, slip renters, etc. in the fact that the Marina may change hands. It would be difficult renting a slip at West Alton right now, as you have a prime spot with a lot of amenities but a very questionable/unstable ownership situation.

By pure speculation, I imagine the asking price for the marina would be in the $40-$70M range. 162 Acres, with 440 slips at an average of $4500-$5000 annual rent, dockside market, fuel, commercial operations, location.. location... location. It is a high interest rate market, with a tenuous legal situation, crazy high demand with no supply, and how often does a marina actually go up for sale on the lake? When a one of one situation comes up (unique), the sky is the limit on price.

[TiltonBB]

Marina sales on the lake are not all that uncommon.

Channel Marine, Thurston's, Shep Brown's, and the Pier all sold within the last four years. None of the sale prices exceeded $3.5 million and some were much less. However, none had the number of slips that West Alton has.

If the buyer pays a price on the high end, arriving at that price based upon cash flow, that could be a problem if the economy continues to slow down. The economy is cyclical and when it slows down the income may not be enough to satisfy the debt. Empty slips don't generate any income.

[LikeLakes]

By pure speculation, I imagine the asking price for the marina would be in the $40-$70M range.

:rolleye1::rolleye1::rolleye1: I really don't think so. I realize you are just speculating, so who knows, but while it is a very valuable property I don't believe it is anywhere near that range.

[Descant]

:rolleye1::rolleye1::rolleye1: I really don't think so. I realize you are just speculating, so who knows, but while it is a very valuable property I don't believe it is anywhere near that range.

Go condo young man. 440 slips at~$100 K is $44,000,000, plus valet and other assets. Slips at MVYC are going for $175K.

[LikeLakes]

I guess in this crazy market anything can happen! Will be curious to see the result.

[Poor Richard]

Go condo young man. 440 slips at~$100 K is $44,000,000, plus valet and other assets. Slips at MVYC are going for $175K.

Small difference is, WAM has the stigma of employing pedos. I wouldn't exactly file that under "value add" but that's just me.

[LikeLakes]

Small difference is, WAM has the stigma of employing pedos. I wouldn't exactly file that under "value add" but that's just me.

Liens and perhaps complicated purchase parameters may affect value, but not so sure the legal situation will. New owner gets to clear the slate, enact proper, proactive, modern employment training and policies and get a fresh new start.

If I bought WAM I'd hire a well qualified HR/employment person right away to make sure practices were correct and send the message of zero tolerance from day 1.

[Descant]

Small difference is, WAM has the stigma of employing pedos. I wouldn't exactly file that under "value add" but that's just me.

Ten days, no, make that 5 days, after the sale, nobody will remember their names. Certainly not the proud new owners of 440 slips, and/or valet services. Ya gotta believe that all the boat owners posting looking for slips are sharpening their pencils and salivating at the thought that WAM will be a condo by next spring. Right behind them are all the investors who want passive income.

[Patiently Watching]

The financial aspects of this matter should be interesting.

The accusers families have asked for an attachment of over $6 million on the marina. Meredith Village Savings Bank has a mortgage of over $5 million on the property. That will total over $11 million in liens, if nothing else comes up.

Looking at recent sales and comparing what Channel Marine and Thurston's Marina sold for it is hard to see a property valuation that will be anywhere near that for West Alton Marina.

West Alton Marina is quite the property and definitely has more land value than the others.

[TiltonBB]

Fifth lawsuit filed, by a female

As with the four suits filed earlier, the plaintiff is alleging that she suffered physical harm and continues to suffer from emotional distress which has required therapy and counseling.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/courts_cops/fifth-former-employee-sues-west-alton-marina/article_5ea2073c-dd2c-11ec-ba21-1b70ffd42959.html

[lagoon]

All of this is following a not unknown pattern. As a former customer I wish I had been more tuned into the illegal behavior towards youth there. I will say that one of the fellows on trial actually tried to pick me up while there for boat service. His remarks were way off base and looking back I should have done something other than telling him I did not "go that direction".

If guilty, they will both be out of commission for long time. The marina will be sold and the rich heritage of the Colby family will be stained because of these two sick individuals.

[TiltonBB]

In the new filing, lawyers for West Alton Marina, Fortier and Murray are asking a judge to move at least two of the lawsuits from state to federal court.

https://www.wmur.com/article/west-alton-marina-lawsuits-federal-court/40278166

[John Mercier]

From the newscast, I think they are arguing that the cases fall under federal law , but not State law.

I would think that NH RSA 354-A:7 Section V (5) should cover that.

''V. Harassment on the basis of sex constitutes unlawful sex discrimination. Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal, non-verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitutes sexual harassment when:
(a) Submission to such conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of an individual's employment;
(b) Submission to or rejection of such conduct by an individual is used as the basis for employment decisions affecting such individual; or
(c) Such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment."

[wentworthwhitbreadIII]

From the newscast, I think they are arguing that the cases fall under federal law , but not State law.

I would think that NH RSA 354-A:7 Section V (5) should cover that.

''V. Harassment on the basis of sex constitutes unlawful sex discrimination. Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal, non-verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitutes sexual harassment when:
(a) Submission to such conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of an individual's employment;
(b) Submission to or rejection of such conduct by an individual is used as the basis for employment decisions affecting such individual; or
(c) Such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment."

I suggest checking with the former chief of police in Gilford if anyone wants more information on the situation at WAM. He appears to have intimate knowledge and some time on his hands.


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[John Mercier]

The Chief wouldn't know anymore about the NH statute than the statute itself.

It is really a matter of whether the plaintiff's lawyers can convince a judge that the case has standing in NH.

[TiltonBB]

The investigation concluded there was “insufficient evidence to meet the State’s burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Chief Burpee committed a crime."

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/courts_cops/ag-won-t-charge-ex-gilford-chief-citing-lack-of-evidence/article_2be51d02-eb4b-11ec-ba1c-2f4748baf96d.html

[wentworthwhitbreadIII]

The investigation concluded there was “insufficient evidence to meet the State’s burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Chief Burpee committed a crime."

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/courts_cops/ag-won-t-charge-ex-gilford-chief-citing-lack-of-evidence/article_2be51d02-eb4b-11ec-ba1c-2f4748baf96d.html

Aka not easily found guilty but also not innocent. Not the kind of person I’d choose to enforce the law in my neighborhood.


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[knowit]

Drove through WAM for the first time the other day. I have to say it looks like a shanty town with all those gazebos. Quite disgusting and depressing if you ask me. Do people camp in those things? Skid Row is great description for it. Just my opinion.

[Lakeboater]

Drove through WAM for the first time the other day. I have to say it looks like a shanty town with all those gazebos. Quite disgusting and depressing if you ask me. Do people camp in those things? Skid Row is great description for it. Just my opinion.

Do they, yes. But I believe they are not supposed to be for “sleeping” in.

[knowit]

Do they, yes. But I believe they are not supposed to be for “sleeping” in.

That is absolutely disgusting.

[upthesaukee]

Drove through WAM for the first time the other day. I have to say it looks like a shanty town with all those gazebos. Quite disgusting and depressing if you ask me. Do people camp in those things? Skid Row is great description for it. Just my opinion.

I docked at WAM for several years. Most of the dock areas that had cabana space behind the docks were home to cruisers for the most part. The cabanas were used for some storage, but mainly for sitting off the boat to eat and entertain.

The one thing I can say is that the areas were not like a shanty town. The areas around them were always neat. On more than one occasion, i did visit with friends at the marina who had a cabana and found it nice to get away from the bugs or out of the rain.

Obviously, your opinion is far different from mine. I don't think you will find many people who would spend $200 per linear foot to dock their boat, ie, 35' boat = $7000.

Dave

[knowit]

Well, you know what they say, one man’s trash is another man’s treasure.
If I had a cruiser boat all my entertaining would be on the boat. Not in some shanty makeshift poor man’s vacation home! And as far as $200 a linear foot, that means nothing. There are plenty of folks with more money than brains on the lake. This whole fiasco is gonna make a great movie. I can only hope they film it in the shanty town. That would be amazing.

[Lakeboater]

That is absolutely disgusting.

My comment about sleeping in the cabanas was that I believe they are not supposed to per the town of Alton. Much like some of the campgrounds can’t have anyone year round.

[Cobaltdeadhead]

I have one of the Cabana slips at WAM and I personally think it's the absolute best setup of any marina on the lake. I have a 16 x 12 deck right behind my slip with a 12 x 12 Cabana on it, place to grill and parking spot immediately behind it, nice furnishings, cable TV, WiFi, full sized fridge, all with views of the channel and My Major. We absolutely love it.

It's just a gorgeous spot to relax and watch the boats go by when my family isn't out on the water. It's also really nice to have when a quick shower comes through. Go hang out in the Cabana and wait for it to pass, then head back out. All of our Cabana neighbors are wonderful families, always people milling about, having drinks and sharing laughs.

[LikeLakes]

Well, you know what they say, one man’s trash is another man’s treasure.
If I had a cruiser boat all my entertaining would be on the boat. Not in some shanty makeshift poor man’s vacation home! And as far as $200 a linear foot, that means nothing. There are plenty of folks with more money than brains on the lake. This whole fiasco is gonna make a great movie. I can only hope they film it in the shanty town. That would be amazing.

So if people don't do their lake experience exactly like you, what they are doing is disgusting? Strange outlook, kind of narrow view of things IMO.

[LikeLakes]

I have one of the Cabana slips at WAM and I personally think it's the absolute best setup of any marina on the lake. I have a 16 x 12 deck right behind my slip with a 12 x 12 Cabana on it, place to grill and parking spot immediately behind it, nice furnishings, cable TV, WiFi, full sized fridge, all with views of the channel and My Major. We absolutely love it.

It's just a gorgeous spot to relax and watch the boats go by when my family isn't out on the water. It's also really nice to have when a quick shower comes through. Go hang out in the Cabana and wait for it to pass, then head back out. All of our Cabana neighbors are wonderful families, always people milling about, having drinks and sharing laughs.

That looks like a really great setup.

[wentworthwhitbreadIII]

That looks like a really great setup.

Interesting to see the Gilford Chief of Police referenced multiple times in this lawsuit but not being named personally. If the allegations are true then it's a bit more than disconcerting that he was on paid administrative leave for 4 months https://dockets.justia.com/docket/new-hampshire/nhdce/1:2022cv00240/59373


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[XCR-700]

Drove through WAM for the first time the other day. I have to say it looks like a shanty town with all those gazebos. Quite disgusting and depressing if you ask me. Do people camp in those things? Skid Row is great description for it. Just my opinion.

I havent been in a couple of years, but in the past we were regulars there, used the launch ramp for day trips.

The gazebos you reference were very inconsistent, some were kept very neat and the people appeared very quiet and friendly, while others kinda fit your description and had loud and rowdy characters hanging out.

But then its the same at the sand bars and any town dock and any waterfront restaurant. Winnipesaukee attracts the whole spectrum.

In the last 20 years I would not keep a boat on wet slip, too many problems with the bottom getting nasty, and the boat always dirty from being out in the open so we trailered.

The last couple of years we have been at Paugas Bay Marina in the valet program and its so much better than a wet slip. Their location is great and they have been outstanding to work with.

I still miss having the boat at home to clean and do maintenance, but dont miss having to drive extra miles to find a ramp and deal with the ramp traffic and parking challenges.

And as far as WAM, I would find it hard to go back knowing what was going on there. Sorry but it would bother me to support such a place until EVERYONE associated with that happened is gone and its under new ownership and management.

[XCR-700]

I have one of the Cabana slips at WAM and I personally think it's the absolute best setup of any marina on the lake. I have a 16 x 12 deck right behind my slip with a 12 x 12 Cabana on it, place to grill and parking spot immediately behind it, nice furnishings, cable TV, WiFi, full sized fridge, all with views of the channel and My Major. We absolutely love it.

It's just a gorgeous spot to relax and watch the boats go by when my family isn't out on the water. It's also really nice to have when a quick shower comes through. Go hang out in the Cabana and wait for it to pass, then head back out. All of our Cabana neighbors are wonderful families, always people milling about, having drinks and sharing laughs.

Looks GREAT, but I dont recall the "tents" down by the ramp looking that nice. Maybe things have changed quite a bit since the pandemic???

[ishoot308]

And as far as WAM, I would find it hard to go back knowing what was going on there. Sorry but it would bother me to support such a place until EVERYONE associated with that happened is gone and its under new ownership and management.

Couldn’t agree more with this statement!

Dan

[LikeLakes]

Agree completely.

[mcdude]

From WMUR today
https://www.wmur.com/article/west-alton-marina-manager-indicted-new-charges/40644868

[mrhill98]

These scams need to be put away for years!! I hope the victims get all they need for support and therapy and can heal. Coming soon Irwin of west alton.... I hope these two pedophiles pay with everything they have and then some!

[mowtorman]

I had reason to go there once.. Got a tour the whole shooting match. Teenagers were around. Talk about how much "fun' everyone was having. A forum member posted that he knew there was a problem from a summer camp 35 years ago. Hundreds of people around every day all summer and no one thought any the worse of anything? Sometimes we don't see what we don't want to.

In these touchy times I knew I wouldn't return when I drove out. To express thoughts on your perceptions without any specific tales puts you on the wrong side of being"correct". These days no matter what you say someone is offended, so I tend to say little or I'm always carefully choosing my words. I wonder how much goes unmentioned or unnoticed in these politically correct times. I didn't mention anything about it until now.

Much different than my childhood when we were still coming off WWII and getting into Vietnam. As kids we used all the incorrect words all the time and called our best friends the worst ones when we were mad...then we either fought it out or got over it.

Who would think a summer job at an established business in the lakes region could be so impactful?

[John Mercier]

As a child, if I used ''incorrect words'', regardless of the situation, I got the strap and sent to my room without dinner.

Seems my grandparents were not so willing to put up with me being ill-mannered.

[mowtorman]

My mistake respect for elders at home and school.....but running around the neighborhood was a different story.

Think about how incorrect the culture was...."Hop Sing" on Bonanza..... McHale's Navy, Combat, Rat Patrol, Hogan's Heroes.....the norm.

[LikeLakes]

Not sure what point you're trying to make.

IMO the good news about it being now, not 40 or 50 years ago, is that the kids will be believed and supported, the criminals will be tried and will go to jail, and no local bigwig or rich uncle or politician will step in to save these hideous piles of you-know-what.

[mowtorman]

I agree. Hopefully the truth will be known. Point is you have to be careful what you say and how you say it all the time. Unfortunately whatever may have happened... went on in plain sight with nothing said by anyone for a long time.

[Loventhelake]

These scams need to be put away for years!! I hope the victims get all they need for support and therapy and can heal. Coming soon Irwin of west alton.... I hope these two pedophiles pay with everything they have and then some!

Never happen, Irwin’s has ZERO interest in West Alton.

[XCR-700]

As a child, if I used ''incorrect words'', regardless of the situation, I got the strap and sent to my room without dinner.

Seems my grandparents were not so willing to put up with me being ill-mannered.

God, that horrifying,,,

But its also very telling.

That is not a "teaching moment" thats unquestionable abuse.

Sorry, no child should suffer such inhuman treatment, weather you realize it or not, it scars you for life.

I heard of worse, but not much.

Hopefully such is no longer tolerated in most places. No wonder we have so mange damaged people in our society.

Horrifying,,,

[XCR-700]

Never happen, Irwin’s has ZERO interest in West Alton.

Too bad, its a great opportunity but they would have to do a lot of PR work to clean up the taint this place currently has.

Just thinking about what happened there is sickening,,,

Hopefully someone will buy it, change the name, and turn it into a role model establishment where local kids can get a good summer job and be treated properly and actually have some fun rather than being abused.

I cannot think of a better summer job experience than working at a marina if you are treated properly and decently. I see the kids working at PBM and it looks pretty damn good to me! But they are a truly outstanding outfit. So happy to be there and SOOOOO happy to know I was not funding the horrifying events that were occurring at WAM.

[XCR-700]

went on in plain sight with nothing said by anyone for a long time.

I find that almost as troubling as the fact that this nightmare happened.

I guess thats how some here can talk about the NH that has no problems with violence.


Just look the other way and it didnt happen.

Dont talk about problems and they wont exist.

Its a great place so ignore little things like this.

Its not our kids and not our problem,,,

Yup all is well when you compartmentalize things properly.

[LoveLakeLife]

God, that horrifying,,,

But its also very telling.

That is not a "teaching moment" thats unquestionable abuse.

Sorry, no child should suffer such inhuman treatment, weather you realize it or not, it scars you for life.

I heard of worse, but not much.

Hopefully such is no longer tolerated in most places. No wonder we have so mange damaged people in our society.

Horrifying,,,

haha I would have welcomed a strap instead of the standard two by four. Those moments certainly taught us. No “timeouts” or negotiations or “make good choices”. Just do as you’re told because you were told, no explanation necessary or deserved, and if it’s not done fast enough then the consequences will be paid. Much fewer people got screwed up in the old system.


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[thinkxingu]

haha I would have welcomed a strap instead of the standard two by four. Those moments certainly taught us. No “timeouts” or negotiations or “make good choices”. Just do as you’re told because you were told, no explanation necessary or deserved, and if it’s not done fast enough then the consequences will be paid. Much fewer people got screwed up in the old system.


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This is horrifying.

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[XCR-700]

This is horrifying.

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Sadly the victims too often rationalize it as their family was just trying to raise them well, but in reality it was/is violent crime perpetrated behind closed doors and against those who both cannot fight back or speak out about it.

Its a crime and a sickness.

I worked with a genuinely kind person, that told me how he and his multiple brothers were lined up every week and the father picked one of them out to beat the hell out of just as a warning to all of them to keep in line. He said by the age of 16 each of them left home, but carried the scars their whole like. At a funeral service for one of them, the eldest spoke and shared a bit of that dark family history, and how difficult it was to even think about it let alone talk about it and at his advanced age he was only then able to grasp the terrible impact it had on him his whole life. It was hard to listen to, so I cant even imagine what that was like to live through,,,

Beating a child with a strap for incorrectly using a word, or beating them simply as an example, and the gross sexual abuse this thread speaks to is beyond reproach, its inexcusable!


As we both agree, horrifying seems to be the best description for all these such situations. Horrifying,,,

[LoveLakeLife]

Lol The opposite resulted in the safe spaces, no hurt feelings, participation trophy generation.


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[thinkxingu]

Lol The opposite resulted in the safe spaces, no hurt feelings, participation trophy generation.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)Ummm...you know that there is a lot of space between beating your kids and having zero consequences, right?!

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[Poor Richard]

I'd a take safe spaces any day over a kid being in 5th grade and lying to his teacher and guidance counselor about how the bruises ended up across his face, knowing full well that if he did tell the truth he'd likely lose his brother and sister to the state's child care services.

I'd also take participation trophies and no hurt feelings over a kid getting whacked with Lincoln Logs, cooking spoons or just generally getting an ass whooping usually while being held down in the process.

I'd suspect that young man would eventually learn that he's not worth experiencing the love that so many of his friends seemed lucky enough to experience and from that, I'd guess he may end up making some incredibly poor choices as time went on because, who really cares anyway?

Yeah, the beatings definitely work, absolutely no mental scars.

I can only imagine what would happen if the individual that has been described above were to work at a place such as WAM.

[LoveLakeLife]

Ummm...you know that there is a lot of space between beating your kids and having zero consequences, right?!

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Ummmmmmmmmm yes I’m aware, Think. I think everybody is. lol


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[LoveLakeLife]

I'd a take safe spaces any day over a kid being in 5th grade and lying to his teacher and guidance counselor about how the bruises ended up across his face, knowing full well that if he did tell the truth he'd likely lose his brother and sister to the state's child care services.

I'd also take participation trophies and no hurt feelings over a kid getting whacked with Lincoln Logs, cooking spoons or just generally getting an ass whooping usually while being held down in the process.

I'd suspect that young man would eventually learn that he's not worth experiencing the love that so many of his friends seemed lucky enough to experience and from that, I'd guess he may end up making some incredibly poor choices as time went on because, who really cares anyway?

Yeah, the beatings definitely work, absolutely no mental scars.

I can only imagine what would happen if the individual that has been described above were to work at a place such as WAM.

An elementary school having a “guidance counselor” is a problem in itself. Lincoln Logs and cooking spoons?? Amateur hour, they’d practically be a reward. Mental “scarring” is internally manufactured and then whines about like “stress”. Non-snowflakes choose their own attitude.

Is the implication really that the WAM people can blame their childhood for consciously deciding to do certain acts as adults? That would be a strange outlook.


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[John Mercier]

Do elementary schools have guidance counselors?
I know that I had one in my high school upperclassman years as the school felt it necessary to get the best outcome after graduation.

Because I don't think I have ever had bruises...

But to be fair... eating some of the bar of soap I found much worse, I think that may have taken some years off my life.

[Poor Richard]

Mr Mercier - perhaps "guidance counselor" isn't the proper term? It's really anyone's guess as to what his role actually was. Could have been that the school called someone in, hard to say for sure. My apologies if that phrasing was misleading.

[Poor Richard]

An elementary school having a “guidance counselor” is a problem in itself. Lincoln Logs and cooking spoons?? Amateur hour, they’d practically be a reward. Mental “scarring” is internally manufactured and then whines about like “stress”. Non-snowflakes choose their own attitude.

Is the implication really that the WAM people can blame their childhood for consciously deciding to do certain acts as adults? That would be a strange outlook.


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Well, consider yourself lucky that your whoopings only resulted in a mid double-digit IQ.

My post had absolutely nothing to do with what the offenders at WAM can blame on their childhood. What I outlined in my post was a child who grew up not knowing his self worth. Are you going to need explanation beyond the combination of a low-esteemed youth and a work environment such what was going on at WAM?

What you got growing up was a warming of the ass. What I describe in my previous post is only a smidgen of things you've never experienced yourself throughout your entire childhood.

I had a lot more to say but, it's just not worth it. Your minimizing of the examples in my previous post only goes to show how lucky you were. Be glad about that.

[LoveLakeLife]

Well, consider yourself lucky that your whoopings only resulted in a mid double-digit IQ.

My post had absolutely nothing to do with what the offenders at WAM can blame on their childhood. What I outlined in my post was a child who grew up not knowing his self worth. Are you going to need explanation beyond the combination of a low-esteemed youth and a work environment such what was going on at WAM?

What you got growing up was a warming of the ass. What I describe in my previous post is only a smidgen of things you've never experienced yourself throughout your entire childhood.

I had a lot more to say but, it's just not worth it. Your minimizing of the examples in my previous post only goes to show how lucky you were. Be glad about that.

haha So now you believe I have a low IQ because you disagree with something I said? Typical level of argument from an armchair psychologist fixated on “self esteem.” “Self esteem” by definition is established by oneself, not outside influences.

John, I can empathize with the aftertaste of a bar of soap along with the immediate sensation of pepper on the tongue. lol


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[SailinAway]

Lol The opposite resulted in the safe spaces, no hurt feelings, participation trophy generation.


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There is a high correlation between physical abuse in childhood and going on to commit abuse against children and animals in childhood through adulthood. Children who are abused with physical punishments do not grow up to become competent parents.

Regarding guidance counselors, many elementary schools have a psychologist on staff.

[John Mercier]

You mean people that have been physically abused are more often to take on a victim-mentality? And that they may act out to reassert their control?

[Descant]

OK. OK! Time for all the amateur Psychologists and Psychiatrists to put down your mouse and post something that is related to WAM, or start your own thread about corporal punishment. Hopefully on a non-Winnipesaukee Forum. Alternatively, get out behind the woodshed and cut a switch.

[John Mercier]

I'm sort of wondering whether the response to the WAM situation is what this is.

[LoveLakeLife]

It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists especially if they’re talking to kids without parental consent. Now I will take Descant’s advice and focus on the great weather and some jet skiing.


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[Garcia]

It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists especially if they’re talking to kids without parental consent. Now I will take Descant’s advice and focus on the great weather and some jet skiing.


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I work in an elementary school and what I find much more problematic than the presence of psychologists is the need some students have for mental health (and other) services coupled with the lack of availability. Blame whoever you want for the need, but in my first hand experience it is very real.

That said, round one of waterskiing was great, round two, with some wakeboarding thrown in, starts now!

[mcdude]

It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists especially if they’re talking to kids without parental consent.


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Middle Schools and High Schools have school psychologists as well. As a (retired) school psychologist I'd be curious to hear you expound on this "problem".

[John Mercier]

It means that we have a lot more ''damage'' in the shadows of our society than we know about.

I always felt when growing up that my grandparents, no matter how ruthless others thought them to be, were greatly concerned about what would happen should I have to face a Great Recession or war with the restrictions of WWII and not have the mental hardness necessary to cope.

[LoveLakeLife]

Middle Schools and High Schools have school psychologists as well. As a (retired) school psychologist I'd be curious to hear you expound on this "problem".

I would echo what I believe is John’s observation: mental hardness. For hundreds of years no one heard of and there were no such things as school psychologists or “grief counselors.” If someone truly were to need some help in that area, it would be arranged by the family, not the government. “Toughen up, stiff upper lip, ‘sticks and stones,’ ‘walk it off,” were all sensical attitudes for generation after generation of normal Americans before and since the Founding. Now look what’s happened.

It was a great day to be on the lake. Skiing next weekend!


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[LoveLakeLife]

Middle Schools and High Schools have school psychologists as well. As a (retired) school psychologist I'd be curious to hear you expound on this "problem".

McDude I have no doubt of your skills and caring as a psychologist. My commentary was on the broader subject. I’ve enjoyed your posts for years.


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[John Mercier]

It could be we're noticing more abuse than training.

I was never punished for anything that I knew beforehand that I was going to be punished for should I partake in the action.

[SailinAway]

You mean people that have been physically abused are more often to take on a victim-mentality? And that they may act out to reassert their control?

No. I mean that they conceive of human relationships in terms of pain and cruelty and then go on to imitate what was done to them, perhaps in worse form. Same for cruelty to animals. The evidence is that very early experiences of abuse rather than love change the brain chemistry.

[SailinAway]

It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists especially if they’re talking to kids without parental consent.

I used to be a teacher, K-12. In elementary schools it was obvious in kindergarten and grade 1 which children were already handicapped by negative conditions in their homes, whether abuse, emotional deprivation, physical deprivation, etc. I forget what the protocol was for notifying parents, but I assure you that there are many children in elementary schools who have a great need for emotional support in and outside the classroom. Psychological support is a way to try to level the playing field so that these children can have an equal chance at success in school. School psychologists and social workers try to educate parents about children's emotional and developmental needs and enlist them in creating a healthy home environment. The whole family benefits.

[SailinAway]

I would echo what I believe is John’s observation: mental hardness. For hundreds of years no one heard of and there were no such things as school psychologists or “grief counselors.” If someone truly were to need some help in that area, it would be arranged by the family, not the government.

And then along came Freud, who ruined a perfectly healthy society by discovering some of the reasons why people do the odd things they do and feel as they do. Actually, mental illness was known to the ancient Greeks. It might not be a good idea to extrapolate your personal experience to most people. If it were true that families were arranging psychological help for family members who need it, we would not be the pathological society that we are.

An interesting read is "Love at Goon Park: Harry Harlow and the Science of Affection" https://www.amazon.com/Love-Goon-Park-Science-Affection/dp/046502601X It explains how the parenting style of the early to mid 20th century evolved: lack of understanding in the 19th century of how germs were spread led parents to withhold physical affection from children out of fear of contaminating them with germs. This resulted in a hands-off parenting style that was passed from generation to generation. Your "mental hardness" philosophy is an extension of that historical trend. Harry Harlow's experiments with baby monkeys showed how that parenting style led to severe pathology due to the lack of bonding between parents and children. This was the beginning of attachment science. That's right, psychology is a science.

[John Mercier]

That is fair... but we went through quite a bit when I was young because teachers didn't want to accept that I was an introvert.

We then had to go through it with my nieces and nephews because someone at school placed it in their heads that the terrorist on 9/11 would come for them.

While it is nice that those outside the family are concerned... once the problem is determined, they have to learn to accept it.

[SailinAway]

We then had to go through it with my nieces and nephews because someone at school placed it in their heads that the terrorist on 9/11 would come for them.

In the 1960s it was placed in children's heads that the Russians were coming for us via a nuclear attack from the air. We had regular air raid drills where we hid under our desks. No one thought about the emotional impact on young children of the news that we were going to be killed. I had nightmares about being bombed by the Russians for 30 years. Sadly this reality is being experienced by Ukranian children today.

[ishoot308]

In the 1960s it was placed in children's heads that the Russians were coming for us via a nuclear attack from the air. We had regular air raid drills where we hid under our desks. No one thought about the emotional impact on young children of the news that we were going to be killed. I had nightmares about being bombed by the Russians for 30 years. Sadly this reality is being experienced by Ukranian children today.

I vividly remember those drills as well!! Always wondered what good hiding under a desk would do! :eek:

Dan

[garysanfran]

In the 1960s it was placed in children's heads that the Russians were coming for us via a nuclear attack from the air. We had regular air raid drills where we hid under our desks. No one thought about the emotional impact on young children of the news that we were going to be killed. I had nightmares about being bombed by the Russians for 30 years. Sadly this reality is being experienced by Ukranian children today.

I went through the same, only my school had a bomb-shelter. I also remember my history and geography books always showed photos of the Soviet Union in black & white. The result was a subliminal indoctrination that those citizens had no color in their lives.

[thinkxingu]

On a totally different note, WAM has GREAT bathrooms, cheap fuel, AND free ice pops for the kiddos.

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[ishoot308]

On a totally different note, WAM has GREAT bathrooms, cheap fuel, AND free ice pops for the kiddos.

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They could give out free gas and you wont catch me going there! Too much of a "stain" on the map for me and until that stain is fully removed from there (which it is not!) I refuse to support it in any way.

The best thing that could happen to that place is it is sold to highest bidder and the all the proceeds go to the victims...

Dan

[XCR-700]

I went through the same, only my school had a bomb-shelter. I also remember my history and geography books always showed photos of the Soviet Union in black & white. The result was a subliminal indoctrination that those citizens had no color in their lives.

And mostly they dont!

But you make a very interesting point about how we are all manipulated from an early age to believe whatever someone wants to think ;-)

[XCR-700]

On a totally different note, WAM has GREAT bathrooms, cheap fuel, AND free ice pops for the kiddos.

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Yes the next owner will get really nice grounds and facilities!

Lets just hope that they are better people,,,

[XCR-700]

They could give out free gas and you wont catch me going there! Too much of a "stain" on the map for me and until that stain is fully removed from there (which it is not!) I refuse to support it in any way.

The best thing that could happen to that place is it is sold to highest bidder and the all the proceeds go to the victims...

Dan

Bravo, well said!

[Lakeboater]

On a totally different note, WAM has GREAT bathrooms, cheap fuel, AND free ice pops for the kiddos.

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I do understand how people that keep their boat at WAM remain there due to lack of available slips. I do not understand how anyone not tied to a slip would support them by purchasing cheap gas and wanting anything for the kids from them.

I’m with Dan on this…..completely agree

[Poor Richard]

haha So now you believe I have a low IQ because you disagree with something I said? Typical level of argument from an armchair psychologist fixated on “self esteem.” “Self esteem” by definition is established by oneself, not outside influences.

Only thing I believe is that the quality of content in your last few posts is quite low. I am simply responding accordingly.

Again, you are more lucky than you realize with regards to your punishments and continuing to minimize the experiences of others along with your strong opinion of things you know nothing about all comes out as a person with relatively low IQ. :shrug:

[thinkxingu]

They could give out free gas and you wont catch me going there! Too much of a "stain" on the map for me and until that stain is fully removed from there (which it is not!) I refuse to support it in any way.

The best thing that could happen to that place is it is sold to highest bidder and the all the proceeds go to the victims...

DanMy wife said it was a terrible joke, but y'all seem less offended by it then as an opportunity for virtue signaling.

Of course nobody wants to directly support whomever was involved in this situation—it's horrible.

There is the the reality, however, of all the others involved—people who could lose their investments, other owners, the workers themselves, etc.

I'm nowhere near WAM, but if I were I'm not so sure I'd be boycotting them just yet.

I'm not even sure I know enough truth to make that decision at this point.

Does anybody have a confirmed story and participants?

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[ishoot308]

My wife said it was a terrible joke, but y'all seem less offended by it then as an opportunity for virtue signaling.

Of course nobody wants to directly support whomever was involved in this situation—it's horrible.

There is the the reality, however, of all the others involved—people who could lose their investments, other owners, the workers themselves, etc.

I'm nowhere near WAM, but if I were I'm not so sure I'd be boycotting them just yet.

I'm not even sure I know enough truth to make that decision at this point.

Does anybody have a confirmed story and participants?

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Unfortunately Think, only the "tip of the iceberg" has been exposed thus far. There will be a LOT more coming out as the investigation continues...

What bothers me the most is how many people closed their eyes to what was going on there. It's sickening as it doesn't just involve the two people you see in the headlines...

The safety of our local children working there should of been a priority and it wasn't!! No one wants to talk about it because it involves kids... Well I call BS on that! Everyone was so concerned and talking about the safety of kids at lake camps when the almighty speed limit debates were going on but now their safety can't be talked about??....Really??

Dan

[XCR-700]

Unfortunately Think, only the "tip of the iceberg" has been exposed thus far. There will be a LOT more coming out as the investigation continues...

What bothers me the most is how many people closed their eyes to what was going on there. It's sickening as it doesn't just involve the two people you see in the headlines...

The safety of our local children working there should of been a priority and it wasn't!! No one wants to talk about it because it involves kids... Well I call BS on that! Everyone was so concerned and talking about the safety of kids at lake camps when the almighty speed limit debates were going on but now their safety can't be talked about??....Really??

Dan

Again well said, cant add to this.

[thinkxingu]

Unfortunately Think, only the "tip of the iceberg" has been exposed thus far. There will be a LOT more coming out as the investigation continues...

What bothers me the most is how many people closed their eyes to what was going on there. It's sickening as it doesn't just involve the two people you see in the headlines...

The safety of our local children working there should of been a priority and it wasn't!! No one wants to talk about it because it involves kids... Well I call BS on that! Everyone was so concerned and talking about the safety of kids at lake camps when the almighty speed limit debates were going on but now their safety can't be talked about??....Really??

Dan

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good (wo)men to do nothing."

It seems like this applies to sooo many things these days.

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[LikeLakes]

I'm not even sure I know enough truth to make that decision at this point.

Does anybody have a confirmed story and participants?

Really? You don't think you've seen and heard enough evidence? Do you think the kids are lying?

I don't care if you choose to buy stuff there, that's your choice. But when you say "does anybody have a confirmed story and participants", aren't you suggesting the kids that have come forward are not being truthful?

[thinkxingu]

Really? You don't think you've seen and heard enough evidence? Do you think the kids are lying?

I don't care if you choose to buy stuff there, that's your choice. But when you say "does anybody have a confirmed story and participants", aren't you suggesting the kids that have come forward are not being truthful?Not at all—I'm talking in terms of scope and who was responsible/negligent.

There are a lot of people relying on WAM to remain in business—whether I choose to support that or not (through my spending) would require knowing whom doesn't deserve my support.

For example, if two people are responsible and dozens aren't, that would be much different than a host of leadership AND employees covering up.

I don't know those things at this point.

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[LikeLakes]

What I think we know, again not convicted in a court of law but enough evidence for me as a citizen, is that one of the owners and the general manager were abusing kids. That's enough for me. I realized others have jobs there and respect your view that you don't want them to be hurt if they were not involved. But I feel like the reward of doing business there goes to the owners and hopefully they will be removed, new ownership will retain the good employees, but in the meantime I'm not going there.

[Woodsy]

Certainly there is a lot to digest here....

This is a no win situation for many people... and I am pretty sure there is more of this scandal to come. How much did the other owners & employees know? Who else may be implicated?

The current employees and customers are no doubt very conflicted about all of the accusations. I cannot imagine what the employees are thinking.. they worked with these people every day. Unfortunately, because there is a lack of slips available on the lake, most customers cannot vote with their wallet and are going to have to stay put.

Next up will be the inevitable bankruptcy filing (to protect whatever assets they can from the lawsuits) and subsequent fire sale that goes with it.

Woodsy

[LoveLakeLife]

Only thing I believe is that the quality of content in your last few posts is quite low. I am simply responding accordingly.

Again, you are more lucky than you realize with regards to your punishments and continuing to minimize the experiences of others along with your strong opinion of things you know nothing about all comes out as a person with relatively low IQ. :shrug:

I can’t influence your internal reaction to someone else’s opinion. I can only only give your opinion of my opinion all the weight that it deserves. I offer no assessment of your, or anyone’’s, IQ.


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[Lakeboater]

My wife said it was a terrible joke, but y'all seem less offended by it then as an opportunity for virtue signaling.

Of course nobody wants to directly support whomever was involved in this situation—it's horrible.

There is the the reality, however, of all the others involved—people who could lose their investments, other owners, the workers themselves, etc.

I'm nowhere near WAM, but if I were I'm not so sure I'd be boycotting them just yet.

I'm not even sure I know enough truth to make that decision at this point.

Does anybody have a confirmed story and participants?

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Apparently you just don’t get it.
The owners are the problem.
I doubt the general workers are involved in ownership.

[thinkxingu]

Apparently you just don’t get it.

The owners are the problem.

I doubt the general workers are involved in ownership.Apparently.

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[wentworthwhitbreadIII]

Apparently.

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It would be nice if the former Gilford Police Chief would shed some light on what his alleged involvement was with the former manager.


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[Mr. V]

It would be nice if the former Gilford Police Chief would shed some light on what his alleged involvement was with the former manager.

What he did in his time off is NOYB so long as it was legal and consensual.

As far of boycotting WAM: LOL. What other convenient, available options are there?

None.

[mowtorman]

Is the key benign existential indifference? Like Freddie Mercury said... nothing really matters.

We could really roll with it.

Are public officials held to a higher moral standard?.....watch the news it doesn't appear so.

[TiltonBB]

Another victim. Sixth suit filed.

“The types of things that were done to Jack, have been occurring at the marina for many years,” the suit says

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/courts_cops/west-alton-marina-hit-with-sixth-lawsuit/article_38d585f4-129e-11ed-ab68-3ba5e0a63dc6.html

[lagoon]

If you look for statistics on the number of victims of each pedophiles at the CDC you will be stunned. I am sure there are more to come in this case and indeed I would not be surprised if there are other victims from other locations where these two alleged abusers spent time before.

People who abuse youth like this do not belong in society at all. Now we will hear about their rights as defendants, and how they misunderstood etc.

[XCR-700]

If you look for statistics on the number of victims of each pedophiles at the CDC you will be stunned. I am sure there are more to come in this case and indeed I would not be surprised if there are other victims from other locations where these two alleged abusers spent time before.

People who abuse youth like this do not belong in society at all. Now we will hear about their rights as defendants, and how they misunderstood etc.

100% agree, and if found guilty, the wood chipper would be suitable. And if not that, life at hard labor, time to bring back the rock pile and the chain gang as there is no reforming people like this, they simply need to suffer a life of punishment equal to or more than what their victims have and will suffer.

Jails need to be operated as facilities for violent offenders and non-violent criminals. And the ones for violent criminals should not have amenities, they are places of punishment not timeouts!

[dickiej]

Even pedophiles will admit they can’t be cured….they need to be removed from society….forever.

[mowtorman]

Vermont in the 80s had a model program for sexual offenders run by Dr. Pithers.

Google for details not fit for this forum. Aversive program with high recidivism rates.

I don't know if they still use it...one victim of a reoffender is too many.

It's like when I got bit by a dog and the owner said "he hasn't bit anyone in 3 years".

Thanks a lot time to put that dog down huh?

[Poor Richard]

Attn: LoveLakeLife

I apologize for the way I interacted with you in this thread a few weeks ago.

I've sent you a PM that elaborates a bit on why I reacted the way I did and, even though it doesn't excuse my responses, I am still sorry for the way I spoke to you.

[LoveLakeLife]

Richard is an honorable, upstanding guy whom we can all be proud to have as a fellow Forum member. What a nice surprise.


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[thinkxingu]

Richard is an honorable, upstanding guy whom we can all be proud to have as a fellow Forum member. What a nice surprise.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)I think I've mentioned this elsewhere, but he—along with iShoot, Phantom, 8gv, Garcia, Joey, Descant, and a few others I'm presently spacing on—have all reached out behind the scenes and offered help and/or advice in the past.

It's a pretty awesome community here, for sure.

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[SailinAway]

Attn: LoveLakeLife
I apologize for the way I interacted with you in this thread a few weeks ago.
I've sent you a PM that elaborates a bit on why I reacted the way I did and, even though it doesn't excuse my responses, I am still sorry for the way I spoke to you.

Poor Richard, I reread your posts and I don't see any need for an apology. You said LLL has a low IQ. There are different types of intelligence, namely intellectual and social-emotional. The parenting style that LLL advocated shows a low understanding of children's needs. There is now a huge body of research-based knowledge about the aftermath of abuse, going back to at least the 1940s. Come on, we can even see the impact of abuse on dogs!

LLL made the following statements:


It’s problematic that some elementary schools have psychologists.
“Self esteem” by definition is established by oneself, not outside influences.
Mental “scarring” is internally manufactured and then whines about like “stress”. Non-snowflakes choose their own attitude.
Much fewer people got screwed up in the old system.


Those statements are factually incorrect and unenlightened. If you think that saying that LLL has a low IQ was rude, fine, but please don't let go of your beliefs about the damage caused by child abuse, because they have been proven by a tremendous amount of research.

If you read between the lines in this thread you might guess that several posters are reacting emotionally to what happened at the marina due to their own experiences of abuse, whether it happened to them, a family member, etc. That's not surprising---the CDC says that at least 1 in 7 U.S. children experiences abuse or neglect each year. That's an epidemic. For every person with views like LLL's who deny the harm caused by abuse, there are a hundred people who know the opposite because they experienced it or witnessed it. Knowing the truth and reacting emotionally when someone denies the reality of what child abuse does to a person right through adulthood needs no apology! I'm sorry you felt obligated to make a public apology. On the contrary, an apology was owed to you.

[John Mercier]

I think you are confusing punishment with abuse.

The Greatest Generation endured the Spanish Flu, the Great Depression (Dust Bowl), and WWII because they were forced to become mentally hard even as children.

[Poor Richard]

There's no need to go back over everything. Having a difference of opinion is not the "ok" to start cutting people down. I felt I went too far and that's that.

Its been a challenge to keep a level head about the happenings at WAM. I had a great relationship with John...the laughs, the stories...all erased and I'm gutted knowing how much good he has to offer and still he chose to go another route. "Disappointed" doesn't even scratch the surface.

As far as my thoughts on adults hitting children, it's really not a great idea at all.

[LoveLakeLife]

Sailin, if you read the lines (no need for venturing between them), Richard was not apologizing for his opinion. Neither he nor anyone else should be expected to do so. He was apologizing for his tenor, and I was glad to accept the apology immediately upon reading it. You have your own opinions, as you should, but you imply that everyone should agree with them. That’s where we diverge.


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[dickiej]

Here’s where we’re at in society: Former Facebook exec: "I think we have created tools that are ripping apart the social fabric of how society works. The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops we’ve created are destroying how society works. No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth. You are being programmed

Social media has completely changed the way we interact in society. I was taught that reasonable people can disagree reasonably. Not any more. Increasingly, more and more people (particularly young people) need the instant feedback from “likes” or “comments “ and they fall apart, lose their impulse control, and lash out if they don’t accumulate enough positive responses.
We are doomed unless this ends.

[SailinAway]

Here’s where we’re at in society: Former Facebook exec: "I think we have created tools that are ripping apart the social fabric of how society works. The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops we’ve created are destroying how society works. No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth." You are being programmed. Social media has completely changed the way we interact in society. I was taught that reasonable people can disagree reasonably. Not any more. Increasingly, more and more people (particularly young people) need the instant feedback from “likes” or “comments “ and they fall apart, lose their impulse control, and lash out if they don’t accumulate enough positive responses. We are doomed unless this ends.

I don't disagree with what you've written, but I just want to point out how difficult it is to chose the right response to nefarious actions. Our response is in part generational. As a baby boomer, I was actively taught by my high school and college teachers to respond loudly and decisively to things like the Vietnam War and racism. I believe this was in part due to the passive response of the world, including the United States, to the Holocaust. Once we learned what happened in the Holocaust, we realized that individuals and nations should have intervened forcibly much earlier rather than agreeing to "disagree reasonably." Moral and ethical reasoning was actively taught in high school and college curriculums.

By the 1990s the pendulum swung in the opposite direction toward valuing positive communication and working cooperatively in groups. This was very actively taught in my graduate teacher education program. Suddenly baby boomers who had been taught to "speak truth to power" and stand up for right moral conduct were called out for not playing nicely in the sandbox.

Today there has been an incredible increase in social aggression, including in social media. You quote, "No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth." The question is, what's the appropriate response when you witness misinformation, misconduct, etc.? While civil discourse and cooperation are noble goals, today people are indicating that they don't want to find common ground with people whose views and conduct they find abhorrent. My personal view is that certain much larger goals, like preserving the planet and preventing the collapse of our democracy, are more important than maintaining peace with your neighbors.

I witnessed an example of this in my own town when one group of citizens waged a successful long, loud battle to achieve an environmental goal while another group---who would have been directly negatively impacted if that campaign had failed---stood by and did nothing, in the interests of keeping the peace. Today the silent ones who benefited from that win (it positively impacted their property values!) probably still think ill of the "strident" campaigners who invested hundreds of hours in the town's future. Don't forget that we are here in this country today because of the actions of a group of strident dissenters 250 years ago!

I don't want to be a passive bystander. Sure, Plan A is to disagree politely. That's easier to do when the issue is whether marijuana should be legalized. It's much harder when the issue is whether climate change is real and caused by humans, or whether Covid-19 is real and dangerous. Then I move to Plan B, which prioritizes the issues and their consequences over keeping the peace with people who spread misinformation. That explains why I might express strong opposition to climate change deniers, pandemic deniers, and abuse deniers who think that having psychologists in schools is a bad thing.

Why is all this related to what happened at the marina? Because sexual predators always pressure their victims to not tell the truth and in past eras, even family members were complicit in hiding the truth to avoid public shame and "keep the peace." Keeping the peace sounds good on the surface but it fails in the case of evil mistruths.

Finally, there is probably a place in society for peace makers and dissenters who confront evil. I guess you can choose which kind of person you want to be. Hopefully both, but it's a difficult balancing act. All of the above is played out in this forum, so the conflicts should come as no surprise.

[SailinAway]

Its been a challenge to keep a level head about the happenings at WAM. I had a great relationship with John...the laughs, the stories...all erased and I'm gutted knowing how much good he has to offer and still he chose to go another route. "Disappointed" doesn't even scratch the surface.

It's very hard to reconcile two opposite things that you know about a person. But sometimes people really are two different people and both sides of them are true.

I once had a college professor who I revered. He went way out of his way to help me personally and professionally and we stayed in contact for decades after I graduated. Years later he committed a sexual crime that turned him into a social outcast. This was totally crushing for me. I had to watch this being played out in the media day after day.

More recently, I had a very positive business relationship with someone
who treated me with total respect and was very helpful to my own client. He was later arrested on multiple accounts of child abuse and child pornography. I was floored when I read about what he had done. When he was arrested, I reflected on the tremendous harm that predators do all across society. Think about all the lost time and money and grief they cause to their victims; the victims' families; their own wife, children, and extended family; judges, lawyers, and jurors; the company they work for and their coworkers; their customers who put their faith in them; and other people they interacted with, like youth groups. It is very hard to understand what goes on in their minds---why they would jeopardize everything they have for these acts.

[John Mercier]

Here’s where we’re at in society: Former Facebook exec: "I think we have created tools that are ripping apart the social fabric of how society works. The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops we’ve created are destroying how society works. No civil discourse, no cooperation; misinformation, mistruth. You are being programmed

Social media has completely changed the way we interact in society. I was taught that reasonable people can disagree reasonably. Not any more. Increasingly, more and more people (particularly young people) need the instant feedback from “likes” or “comments “ and they fall apart, lose their impulse control, and lash out if they don’t accumulate enough positive responses.
We are doomed unless this ends.

Social media is just being used as a scapegoat for bad behavior.
I see the same thing everyday in the real world.

[dickiej]

But that's the whole point...social media is causing the everyday behavior you are talking about.

[SailinAway]

But that's the whole point...social media is causing the everyday behavior you are talking about.

Social media is a large part of the problem, but I first noticed really bad social behaviors at least 25 years ago. Think back to when the F word first became really prevalent on the street. When you first heard about road rage. Etc. Undeniably, the anonymity of the internet allowed uncivil behavior to flourish. People imitate what they see, and with social media people are far more aware of other people's aggression---aggressive people now have an audience of millions.

[John Mercier]

But that's the whole point...social media is causing the everyday behavior you are talking about.

Not from what I see.

Social media doesn't make a 60 year old verbally attack a counter person and get upset when they don't get immediate attention.
Social media doesn't make a 70 year old run the exit only side of a fence after the store is closed and then spend an inordinate amount of time concerned with a discount on an $8 purchase because they know that we all want to go home.

Those are just inherently bad behaviors that stand out because no one in the real world wants to stand up to them and point it out.

The accused, I doubt suspect that a local outcry for their release will be forthcoming should they be convicted.

[LoveLakeLife]

Sailin, calling people “deniers” is half the problem. “Climate change” = weather. Some people disagree and say the world will end in another 6-7 years I think it is.

Believe what you like. Try to persuade others if you like. Don’t delude yourself, though, that everyone gives weight to what you think just because it is you who thinks it. That’s not unique to you, it’s true for everyone.

If you don’t want to be a passive bystander, then don’t be, but don’t expect others to have the same attitude. Don’t think people will be persuaded when you throw out the oblique dig of “you can choose which kind of person you want to be.” No one here is trying to please you, or concerned about what you might think of them. Your internal standards are your own to live by, and are no more valid than anyone else’s.

Your posts are sincere and thought-provoking, but not so much when you embed, whether directly or slyly, needless invective, i.e., the “which type of person” stuff.

What did everyone do on the lake today?!


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[SailinAway]

Don’t think people will be persuaded when you throw out the oblique dig of “you can choose which kind of person you want to be.” . . . needless invective, i.e., the “which type of person” stuff.

Where do you see invective in choosing whether you want to be a peace maker or a dissenter? My point was very simple: "There is probably a place in society for peace makers and dissenters." And I added that hopefully we choose to do both. There is no invective implied or intended there.

If I wanted to use invective I might say something like "when you make a statement like 'Climate change = weather' you practically force someone to question your IQ, unless you know something that 98% of the world's scientists don't know." No, wait, a statement of fact isn't really invective. Sorry, bad example.

[LoveLakeLife]

I might have misinterpreted when you used the terms peacemaker and dissenter. If so, my apologies.

Now you’ve taking up the mantle that Richard appropriately abandoned and lowered yourself to the “questioning IQ” gambit.

Yes, I know common sense. The weather is the weather. Weren’t we supposed to be under water or frozen over by now according to “scientists” of the 20th century? One man’s facts are another man’s fallacies. Saying something is a fact doesn’t make it so. Only a few hundred years ago the world was, in fact, flat. Only a few months ago the vaccine, in fact, cured the virus. Which was it, naïveté or gullibility, on the part of the masses who slavishly believed the “scientists”? [emoji3]


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[FlyingScot]

Only a few months ago the vaccine, in fact, cured the virus. Which was it, naïveté or gullibility, on the part of the masses who slavishly believed the “scientists”? [emoji3]


If you're going to be a Monday Morning Quarterback, you should at least get the facts straight. The scientific community never said the vaccines would cure the virus, and no one ever said they were perfect. They said it would prevent specific strains of virus in large numbers of people and would minimize severity in just about all. They did both of these things.

I have not looked at the numbers in many months, but I'm pretty sure that if you look at COVID deaths, the deceased were disproportionately unvaccinated

[John Mercier]

Climate does not equal weather.

And vaccines do not make people immune.

The climate is a long term pattern, weather is a short term pattern.

Vaccines trick the immune system into believing that the body is being attacked by an infection of the specified pathogen and causes it to build up a defense without ever actually being infected.

Social media has made those a more vigorous a discussion; but those discussions were pretty vigorous before social media existed.

I doubt that social media is making pedophilia more acceptable, or that the accused expects that if convicted social media will come to their defense.

[SailinAway]

I might have misinterpreted when you used the terms peacemaker and dissenter. If so, my apologies. Now you’ve taking up the mantle that Richard appropriately abandoned and lowered yourself to the “questioning IQ” gambit. Yes, I know common sense. The weather is the weather. Weren’t we supposed to be under water or frozen over by now according to “scientists” of the 20th century? One man’s facts are another man’s fallacies. Saying something is a fact doesn’t make it so. Only a few hundred years ago the world was, in fact, flat. Only a few months ago the vaccine, in fact, cured the virus. Which was it, naïveté or gullibility, on the part of the masses who slavishly believed the “scientists”?

Smart people recognize when they are not experts on a topic and they look to experts for information rather than relying on personal opinion and bias when the issue is a question of fact. I would rather rely on people who study something all day every day than on my personal opinion, especially if 98% of experts in a field agree on the issue.

Smart people also take the time to examine the source of their opinion on a topic. Does it come from my reading of reports from experts? From my political beliefs? My religious beliefs? My parents, schooling, friends, news media, the government, personal experience, etc etc.? Not smart people hold firm but unexamined beliefs about issues that relate more to facts than opinions, like flat earthers. You can't really have an opinion on whether the earth is flat. You can have either knowledge or ignorance of that fact. (Or you can pretend you don't know the facts and present untruths because you have some other agenda.)

By those definitions of smart and not smart, you seem to be going out of your way to place yourself in the latter category.

[LoveLakeLife]

More labeling and ad hominem attacks, so regrettable. Now the implication is over smartness and has gone beyond the IQ realm. If you only were to know …..

I hope someday to be so smart that life experience and observation will count for nothing and I’ll just blindly follow the crowd. Until then I’ll pretend to hope against hope that the prediction of 12 years until human extinction, made five years or so ago, is off at least a few months to the good. Then I can enjoy the lake for a few months before the eastern seaboard sinks. Hopefully that’ll happen in the winter. Wait, will winter still be a thing by then?


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[XCR-700]

If you're going to be a Monday Morning Quarterback, you should at least get the facts straight. The scientific community never said the vaccines would cure the virus, and no one ever said they were perfect. They said it would prevent specific strains of virus in large numbers of people and would minimize severity in just about all. They did both of these things.

I have not looked at the numbers in many months, but I'm pretty sure that if you look at COVID deaths, the deceased were disproportionately unvaccinated

And here I thought the deceased were disproportionately over 80 and had preexisting health problems,,, or were they disproportionately not members of this forum so they didnt know what the facts are/were/will be, I keep mixing up all the COVID facts as they keep changing based on CDC and the status of politics and the media.

Oh sorry, isnt this thread about another matter,,,

[XCR-700]

Where do you see invective in choosing whether you want to be a peace maker or a dissenter? My point was very simple: "There is probably a place in society for peace makers and dissenters." And I added that hopefully we choose to do both. There is no invective implied or intended there.

If I wanted to use invective I might say something like "when you make a statement like 'Climate change = weather' you practically force someone to question your IQ, unless you know something that 98% of the world's scientists don't know." No, wait, a statement of fact isn't really invective. Sorry, bad example.

Well I do know one thing that is an absolute about the climate change matter, your classic environmentalists are NOT in agreement with the climate change activists. It seem that the green movement is not actually all that green and that if humans are to continue (as opposed to the 12 year extinction quoted by someone else) then we will need a hot planet with lots of green house gasses to grow food and to make oxygen for the rapidly growing population. We just need it to be free of toxic material generation that too many of the new green deal people are going to create, such as lithium battery powered everything! Time to get back to the concept of cradle to grave, as opposed to the short term big money and big profit new green concepts.

But then this thread is not about any of that, so best we drop all the environmental talk and get back to our scathing assessment of the evil men do, and are doing, and are getting away with EVERY day!

And in this matter, regardless of the final outcome, they mostly got away with it AND for a long time, and impacted way too many lives. And that is the tragedy. How this continued for as long as it did is inexcusable. There can be no meaningful justice for such offenses, only paper resolutions. One can only hope for a special place in hell for such creatures, and I hope to be there waiting for them. I have my pitchfork all picked out and I look forward to doling out eternal torment, as I harbor no delusions that I am any golden winged angel. I will simply be happy enough to be one of the few who can take the heat for my wrong doings and who gets to exact dues from those worse than me!

Are we done yet?

[XCR-700]

Climate does not equal weather.

And vaccines do not make people immune.


And finally something we can agree on, except that it has no place in this thread! So based on your previously defined forum standards, this should not be here! I guess we are both off the rails,,,

So again, are we done yet,,,

[LoveLakeLife]

We’re done XCR. Thanks for bringing it around. [emoji3]


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[ishoot308]

We’re done XCR. Thanks for bringing it around. [emoji3]


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On a personal note LLL you have proven yourself to be a highly intelligent poster on this forum and I look forward to more of your posts! Please keep them coming!

Dan