Don't drink the water

[mowtorman]

Life is for learning. For the first time in 55 years I picked up a microorganism and an ear infection after spending the day swimming at public beaches on the same day on the northern end of the lake. To think that in the 60s houses ran pipes from the basements to about 40 feet out in the lake for a water source. There are natural springs near Cooks Pt. where you can watch the water blowing the sand up at about 12 feet deep. That's not enough to keep up with what's being put into the lake at this point. It's all about the feces and urine from humans and animals. You may think that I'm full of feces that's fine aren't we all? Haters will hate and I'm not hugging trees I like nature and powersports. The organism I picked up comes from cysts in feces (duck, geese, mink, dog, human) which remain viable in lake water for over 50 days. Common infection in dogs and cats.
All anyone has to do is wipe their mouth or swallow some water and you can intake the cysts. Phosphorus and Nitrogen are in urine and feces. When one person takes that innocent pee in the middle of the lake it matters. When 500 people take that innocent pee in Braun Bay it matters. When people squat in the channel to pee all day (I've seen it) it matters. Cyanobacteria which is toxic and associated with ALS (see Mascoma Lake DHMC) is in Kanasatka this summer. Once introduced it thrives on Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Kanasatka is 9' above Winnipesaukee so where do you think it is headed? If you have good flow, low population and low animal populations you are obviously better off. Point is the lake is taking a pounding and without the opportunity to flush over the winter it wouldn't be much better than Lilly Pond. Learned my lesson the hard way the lake is far from pristine even in a Covid year. More interesting reading google Long Lake in Maine I don' think we're there yet.

[FlyingScot]

Bummer. Thanks for sharing. Please let us know exactly where you were

[ApS]

Saturday, directly in front of my place, a visiting boater relieved herself hanging onto the transom of their boat. (With apparent understanding of others aboard).

Then on Sunday, two male visitors (in mixed company) relieved themselves simultaneously off the swim platform.

Same spot...:rolleye1:

And we see ads for boats, "Includes never-used porta-potty". :rolleye1:
:rolleye1:

[mowtorman]

Now that's a bummer. I was between Meredith and Melvin Village what happened occurred in the lake it was not the fault of a municipality.

[Hillcountry]

Sorry to hear of your illnesses...I know Braun Bay has been the topic of discussion about all the urine that must be expelled by waders and partiers but I wonder what “channel” you’re speaking of where they “squat all day?”:D
That just strikes me funny...sorry!

[Biggd]

Anyone that thinks all that pee in Braun Bay is not a problem, think of your septic system before you jump in. :eek:

[Pineedles]

If this isn’t one of the best trolling posts I ever seen, then I haven’t seen enough in my many years on this forum.:rolleye1:

[mowtorman]

I think of Weirs Channel as the channel. Also I should have said Google Long Lake Maine poop.

[mswlogo]

You can measure it.

BTW this video also talks about that characteristic smell of a chlorinated pool. Well that smell isn’t the chlorine, It’s the reaction between chlorine and pee is what you’re smelling.

Also a lot of lake homes still use the lake as their water source.

https://youtu.be/S32y9aYEzzo

[fatlazyless]

Here's a relevant and interesting New Hampshire historical factoid about removing the pee from Lake Winnipissaukee.

In the year 1931, the NH state legislature passed a law that called for Lake Winnipissaukee, as it was commonly called, to be officially recognized and named by all as Lake Winnipesaukee, in an effort to remove the derogatory pee from the name, Winnipissaukee.

Hence forth and forever after, going forward from the year 1931, Lake Winnipissaukee has been known as Lake Winnipesaukee ........ here, here, here ..... and a big thank-you to all the long gone state reps and senators who passed that there NH law ....... a-way back then in 1931 ...... a-yuh! ..... :laugh:

[mowtorman]

Prior to that it was Lake Winnipisseogee maybe it's time to petition to change it back.

[Grant]

Yeah -- with all the construction around the lake, the introduction of Canada geese, and increase in population, the water quality has def taken a hit. Cyanobacteria (also called "blue-green algae") is the scary stuff. When we were staying on Lee's Pond during September about six years ago, there was a "bloom" and people were told to avoid swimming and to keep their dogs out. There is also a link to ALS. The rash of closures due to fecal coliform is really distressing.

Our old place had lake-supplied water for over 70 years, and it was only in the last few years that we opted for bottled water for drinking. I literally grew up drinking lake water for over a month each year.

Still kickin'!!!

[ApS]

Turning to science for the definitive answer:

Urine is good for growing algae, including algae blooms that can kill...

https://resource.wur.nl/en/show/Algae-thrive-on-urine.htm

[Grant]

Turning to science for the definitive answer:

Urine is good for growing algae, including algae blooms that can kill...

https://resource.wur.nl/en/show/Algae-thrive-on-urine.htm

Great -- so pee could be a contributing factor to the annual "Lake Snot" blooms. I wonder if they are more prevalent in Braun area.

I'm not going diving there to investigate!

[Sue Doe-Nym]

This discussion is so distressing....it’s so much easier to breeze over what’s happening to our beautiful, sparkling lakes.... if only everyone would take care to preserve what we have....in this case, had. I’m no tree hugger, but I try to do my part not to pollute. I am sorry for the distress OP has had with the infections.
LMOLGA! *
* Let’s Make Our Lakes Great Again!

[dickiej]

....also, a big contributing factor is the use of fertilizer to keep the lawns green around the McMansions right on the lake...just that much more phosphorous getting into the lake and promoting the algae growth. Seriously, it is incredibly irresponsible to have a lawn near the lake.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

....also, a big contributing factor is the use of fertilizer to keep the lawns green around the McMansions right on the lake...just that much more phosphorous getting into the lake and promoting the algae growth. Seriously, it is incredibly irresponsible to have a lawn near the lake.

You are so correct, and all you get from the landscapers is that what they’re using does not pollute the lake, which is pure, unadulterated baloney!

[Merrymeeting]

Not to mention all the fish poop being dumped into the Merrymeeting River, which then dumps into Alton Bay.
http://www.newhampshirelakesandmountains.com/Articles-Baysider-c-2020-08-19-165119.113119-Lawsuit-against-fish-hatchery-moves-forward.html

There are cyanobacteria blooms in the river every year.

[dippasan]

Life is for learning. For the first time in 55 years I picked up a microorganism and an ear infection after spending the day swimming at public beaches on the same day on the northern end of the lake. To think that in the 60s houses ran pipes from the basements to about 40 feet out in the lake for a water source. There are natural springs near Cooks Pt. where you can watch the water blowing the sand up at about 12 feet deep. That's not enough to keep up with what's being put into the lake at this point. It's all about the feces and urine from humans and animals. You may think that I'm full of feces that's fine aren't we all? Haters will hate and I'm not hugging trees I like nature and powersports. The organism I picked up comes from cysts in feces (duck, geese, mink, dog, human) which remain viable in lake water for over 50 days. Common infection in dogs and cats.
All anyone has to do is wipe their mouth or swallow some water and you can intake the cysts. Phosphorus and Nitrogen are in urine and feces. When one person takes that innocent pee in the middle of the lake it matters. When 500 people take that innocent pee in Braun Bay it matters. When people squat in the channel to pee all day (I've seen it) it matters. Cyanobacteria which is toxic and associated with ALS (see Mascoma Lake DHMC) is in Kanasatka this summer. Once introduced it thrives on Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Kanasatka is 9' above Winnipesaukee so where do you think it is headed? If you have good flow, low population and low animal populations you are obviously better off. Point is the lake is taking a pounding and without the opportunity to flush over the winter it wouldn't be much better than Lilly Pond. Learned my lesson the hard way the lake is far from pristine even in a Covid year. More interesting reading google Long Lake in Maine I don' think we're there yet.

20 years ago or so I contracted Giardia (an intestinal parasite). I was 160 lbs at the time and lost 20 lbs in a month. I'm pretty certain, and doctors agreed, it was from the lake because at the time I was learning to barefoot water ski and ingested/took in lake water through every orifice on a regular basis. There's all kind-o-stuff mixed into that lake water

[Biggd]

Increased poopulation.:emb:

[FlyingScot]

Increased poopulation.:emb:

Sort of. If population goes up and we have the same behavior, that's a big problem. But we should not let ourselves off the hook so easily. We can avoid lawns and fertilizer (as posted above), we can maintain our septics and get rid of failing ones, we can make sure our roads and culverts do not dump water directly into the lake, etc. If we do these things, then we can grow without destroying the things we love

[dippasan]

Sort of. If population goes up and we have the same behavior, that's a big problem. But we should not let ourselves off the hook so easily. We can avoid lawns and fertilizer (as posted above), we can maintain our septics and get rid of failing ones, we can make sure our roads and culverts do not dump water directly into the lake, etc. If we do these things, then we can grow without destroying the things we love

Not sure how much truth there is to this but it's my understanding that the lake is considerably cleaner now than it was...say...post WW2 due to advancements in septic designs, regulations, construction guidelines and shoreline management.

Curious if there are lake cleanliness comparison's from different time periods

[ishoot308]

Not sure how much truth there is to this but it's my understanding that the lake is considerably cleaner now than it was...say...post WW2 due to advancements in septic designs, regulations, construction guidelines and shoreline management.

Curious if there are lake cleanliness comparison's from different time periods

Absolutely 100% true by a long shot!!

The “glory days” are not always glorious!

Dan

[mowtorman]

From 1963 to 1965 we vacationed at the Piscopo's Mountainview Cottages on Winnisquam. We thought it was a blast to make snowballs from the green seaweed like algae that accumulated on the beach. This resulted from the many camps that dumped into the lakes above. The second major factor was the number of overnight cruisers that could stay either anchored by an island or at town docks like Weirs. There was one cruiser named La Grenouille that basically never moved from the Weirs docks on the weekends. Cruisers discharged directly into the lake with much of it in the area of the Weirs docks. Imagine it flowing right past the beach? The lakeside pumping septic lines up Paugus Bay and the then new no discharge laws were immensely helpful. We keep loading up the lake from other sources and the conditions will return. BTW TMI but yes it is giardia and no I'm not wandering much at the moment. Part of why the forum if so intriguing. I apologize for setting new lows for such a fecy post.

[dippasan]

From 1963 to 1965 we vacationed at the Piscopo's Mountainview Cottages on Winnisquam. We thought it was a blast to make snowballs from the green seaweed like algae that accumulated on the beach. This resulted from the many camps that dumped into the lakes above. The second major factor was the number of overnight cruisers that could stay either anchored by an island or at town docks like Weirs. There was one cruiser named La Grenouille that basically never moved from the Weirs docks on the weekends. Cruisers discharged directly into the lake with much of it in the area of the Weirs docks. Imagine it flowing right past the beach? The lakeside pumping septic lines up Paugus Bay and the then new no discharge laws were immensely helpful. We keep loading up the lake from other sources and the conditions will return. BTW TMI but yes it is giardia and no I'm not wandering much at the moment. Part of why the forum if so intriguing. I apologize for setting new lows for such a fecy post.

Hopefully it will all be BEHIND you soon.

[garysanfran]

Where Mills Falls is, there was an asbestos factory that dumped their waste into Meredith Bay. My understanding it remains, undisturbed and encapsulated on the bottom.

No factory can do that today.

I tried to google it and didn't find anything. Gotta be history out there I'm not finding.

[DPatnaude]

Where Mills Falls is, there was an asbestos factory that dumped their waste into Meredith Bay. My understanding it remains, undisturbed and encapsulated on the bottom.

No factory can do that today.

I tried to google it and didn't find anything. Gotta be history out there I'm not finding.

Getting off-track from water quality, but this NHDES link suggests the only asbestos waste in Meredith is in the town landfill that is closed and capped.

https://www.des.nh.gov/organization/divisions/waste/orcb/prs/adsp/categories/faq.htm

[Diver1111]

As a diver I've learned a few things about ears. One is that if you dive often enough you'll probably get an ear infection.

Beside hurting like hell sometimes, you risk collateral damage health-wise if it takes off such as permanent loss of hearing and other bad things.

While I can't protect myself from bad water other than avoiding it, a 50/50 blend of white vinegar and rubbing alcohol is a dirt cheap and very effective way to head off ear infections. No guarantees of course but it sure works for me.

The vinegar, being acidic, kills bacteria and the alcohol displaces water in the ear canal. I use white vinegar to clean bottles I find diving because it's mildly acidic.

Make yourself a very small batch of 50/50 blend of rubbing alcohol and white vinegar.

All you need is a small 2 or 3 oz. bottle with a tip on it so you can tilt your head and put 2-4 drops in and getting it into the ear canal. You'll know it's in the canal because it will make an odd sound as it plugs it up and actually feels plugged up which is what you want-all the way to the tympanic membrane-the ear drum. The plugged up feeling won't last long.

You can also buy this solution at alot of dive shops and very likely at CVS etc.. Sometimes it's called "auro-dri" or similar name. Basically they market it for "swimmer's ear".

Water stuck in the ear canal is a petrie dish waiting to take off. Bad water only magnifies the odds of getting an infection.

[barefootbay]

The lakes are being loved to death ! Too many people , too much money, plain and simple !

[tbonies]

You are so correct, and all you get from the landscapers is that what they’re using does not pollute the lake, which is pure, unadulterated baloney!

Do you have specific examples or is this just a blind broad brush baseless statement?

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Do you have specific examples or is this just a blind broad brush baseless statement?

Actually, I do have specifics. I try to avoid making “blind broad brush baseless statements”.

[ApS]

20 years ago or so I contracted Giardia (an intestinal parasite). I was 160 lbs at the time and lost 20 lbs in a month. I'm pretty certain, and doctors agreed, it was from the lake because at the time I was learning to barefoot water ski and ingested/took in lake water through every orifice on a regular basis. There's all kind-o-stuff mixed into that lake water
Giardia is also found in New Hampshire's well water:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4848110/

(At the "X")…
.
.
.

[Mink Islander]

I’m also a diver and use a slightly different mix to address ear infections: 1/3 white vinegar, 1/3 alcohol and 1/3 baby oil. The alcohol will dry the skin so the baby oil helps with that.

[mowtorman]

I'm the only one off the water source who is sick and the timing of onset perfectly matches the incubation time. Good suggestion but can't imagine no one else being sick plus the cysts originate in feces which would be harder to introduce than a large contingent of waterfoul. Think about grandkids etc. this is really not a pleasant experience make sure they don't ingest while playing or spray it with their mouths while playing in the water with friends it's not worth it.

[XCR-700]

Sorry I think I missed something here, the point.

So are we all just going boating and no more swimming, but still need to wear masks and goggles and nose & ear plugs to protect against over the bow spray to make sure it doesnt get into our bodies?

Or are some of you saying you are leaving the lake and never going to urinate or worse in it again and everyone else should also, so that it will be clean for no one to use.

Happy to be a reasonable part of a reasonable solution, but I seem to have missed it.

Help me see where we are going.

Were we better off when leaded gas and 2 - cycle oil regularly got spilled into the lake and probably killed of a lot of bacteria? Never saw that coming,,,

Nope, sure I am still missing something.

Oh ya, like what is the fix.

Seriously, what is the fix? :(:(:(:(

[FlyingScot]

Do you have specific examples or is this just a blind broad brush baseless statement?

There are many smart, thoughtful yard people and excellent hardware stores who do not understand that they should not be using any phosphorous-based fertilizers near the lake. Our watershed is like a giant bowl, and everything flows into the water.

Nest time you're speaking with your yard person or you're at the store buying fertilizer yourself, make sure the middle number (of the 3 numbers on the bag) is 0. If it is not zero, your gardener is sending phosphorous into the lake.

[mowtorman]

I think we're all sick of living in a toxic world, wearing face masks and being afraid of getting sick. I never considered the lake water could make me ill. I waited over a week for the stomach bug to go away before I heard the word Giadia for the first time. I know what I will do. If I'm going underwater I'll wear watertight ear plugs it's such an easy choice because I know I can get an ear in fection. Most people don't. I used to skin dive all the time....go down ten or so feet to get things off the bottom. I know now that if I get water up my nose inadvertently or in my mouth there are microorganisms that could make me sick. So I'll do my best not to do that. When I go swimming it won't be at a congested public beach with a lot of waterfoul around. September will probably be a good month to use the beaches. Most people spend their time at less populated areas of the lake and probably don't need to do anything. Ultimately you do what you want. Wear a mask or don't. Party with people or don't. Pee in the water or don't. Make choices live with the consequences. The bottom line is the water quality is as I stated not "pristine" like the "Switzerland of America". I didn't know that because I've been around too long operating on old beliefs. I wanted to share the information so that others can at least make informed decisions I have no interest in telling people what to do with their time on the lake I hope they enjoy it. That's why this forum even exists. Good question for sure.

[Winilyme]

...was kayaking yesterday. Pulled a plastic bag out of the lake only to find it was full of someone's poop. Credit to her for not dropping it back in the lake. Would love to know who did that and where they lived. I'd mail it back to them.

[wingnuts]

Ever see the number of boats at the sand bar near the Margate on Paugus Bay on a weekend? It's as bad as Winnisquam sand bar. Guaranteed most of them are peeing in lake. And then they trespass through the cemetery to Shaws and load up more beer, wine and soda to consume and further relieve themselves. All of this just upstream from the Laconia City intake for water...

[mowtorman]

Winilyme that is truly disgusting. Please google poop long lake Maine it's completely relevant and what we are headed for if people continue to treat the lake like a farm manure pond. P.S. by saying pee in the lake if you want to I don't advocate for it at all. I meant that no one can police what someone is doing in the water with one hand on the swim platform and no one wants to. I would advocate that what someone feels they absolutely are justified and need to do in the moment may not be best for everyone that uses the lake in the long term. Prior to Covid at any point in time you were never more than 5 minutes from at least a porta potty. It's harder now but you still have Weirs, Glendale, Shep Brown's, Center Harbor, Meredith and others on the northern side of the lake.

[ApS]

There are probably several healthy members of this forum who remember chilling their beverages with ice "harvested" from Winter Harbor. :look: (Just a mile from where I currently reside).

"Harvesting"was done with a long hand saw, and were also likely sold as large blocks in Wolfeboro.

Of course, private dwellings now occupy nearly every inch of Winter Harbor that was formerly a White Pine forest.

We can't expect pristine. :rolleye1:

[Winilyme]

But, we need to aim for 'pristine' knowing that the result will be 'less than pristine - but hopefully not too bad'. If we aim for 'less than pristine', the result will be even worse.

Give people an inch and they'll take a mile.

[swnoel]

How many property owners on thew lake will raise their hand and blame themselves for this?

[XCR-700]

How many property owners on thew lake will raise their hand and blame themselves for this?

Its always easy to stand on the soap box and point fingers of blame, but few will look in the mirror and take responsibility AND then actually and significantly change what they are doing.

Its just human nature to blame the other guy, and to impose your preferences on others for their actions but not actually conform to those standards yourself.

[Winilyme]

Its always easy to stand on the soap box and point fingers of blame, but few will look in the mirror and take responsibility AND then actually and significantly change what they are doing.

Its just human nature to blame the other guy, and to impose your preferences on others for their actions but not actually conform to those standards yourself.

I wish I didn't feel the need to thank you for this comment because I wish it didn't have to be written. But it's so true.

[XCR-700]

I wish I didn't feel the need to thank you for this comment because I wish it didn't have to be written. But it's so true.

Me too, it brings me no joy,,,

At 58 years old I started in cloth diapers and was taught old school values.

We were far from perfect, but we all did a better job of enjoying life and treating people nicer.

Today everyone wants to out-do the other guy and too many people dont seem to care at all they their preference for anything has a negative impact of someone else.

I think about all the boats with monster sound systems blaring music across the lake. I dont even care if I like what they are playing, I still see no reason to blast it to everyone else.

Not the world I grew up in and NOT better,,,

https://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopost/data/502/medium/First_Glastron.jpg

[Lakegeezer]

The Lake Winnipesaukee Association is a great resource to learn about the ecology of the lake watershed and ongoing efforts to maintain water quality.

LWA studies show that storm water runoff is by far the most damaging element to water quality. It brings both phosphorus and silt into the lake, adding algae to the food chain, which lowers water quality. Septic systems and fertilizer are also contributors and as this thread points out, there are some localized issues too.

Tomorrow (Saturday 8/29) it is supposed to rain about an inch. If you are at the lake, look for erosion taking place. If you can find sheets of water running into the lake, look for new silt deposits nearby. That is evidence of lake pollution. During "gully washer" thunderstorms and three day steady rains, the evidence is more clear.

The lake will age no matter if people are here or not, but it ages a lot faster when development channels water to the lake. The more that shore front property owners can reduce the impact of storm water runoff from their land, the less quickly the lake will age.

[gillygirl]

Me too, it brings me no joy,,,

At 58 years old I started in cloth diapers and was taught old school values.

We were far from perfect, but we all did a better job of enjoying life and treating people nicer.

Today everyone wants to out-do the other guy and too many people dont seem to care at all they their preference for anything has a negative impact of someone else.

I think about all the boats with monster sound systems blaring music across the lake. I dont even care if I like what they are playing, I still see no reason to blast it to everyone else.

Not the world I grew up in and NOT better,,,

https://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopost/data/502/medium/First_Glastron.jpg

This pic again?


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[ApS]

There's been no appreciable rain for several days, yet heavy boat traffic Friday afternoon has stirred the waters to the point that the lake bottom can't be seen off the end of my dock. :(

I'll post comparison photos sometime tomorrow.

[XCR-700]

This pic again?


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)
Its my best side, the back side is not nearly as nice, but its all 100% me :D

Alton Bay circa 1963

[mowtorman]

Taking a tangent for a moment but what a great boat in the pic XCR. I'm guessing......MFG.....Glaspar? Lark 40? Imagine that on Weirs Bay now on a Saturday be like a dinghy. OK done straying. Day 6 of antibiotics and about as many rolls of tp. Would you like a glass of water?.....no thanks I'm good.

[XCR-700]

I think a Glastron, but I'll have to pull some other pictures to be sure.

We had a lot of Glastrons over the years.

[XCR-700]

Sorry, mom thinks its was a Starcraft, mom says we went through several Starcrafts back in the day.

I'm not sure, apparently we had both brands,,,

[ApS]

But, we need to aim for 'pristine' knowing that the result will be 'less than pristine - but hopefully not too bad'. If we aim for 'less than pristine', the result will be even worse.

Give people an inch and they'll take a mile.
It's all the boats. :(

There's been no appreciable rain for several days, yet heavy boat traffic Thursday afternoon has stirred the waters to the point that the lake bottom can't be seen off the end of my dock. :(

I'll post comparison photos sometime tomorrow.

OK...I'm late with photos. :o I realized that the murky-water photo off my dock was taken mid-afternoon.

The clear lake water photo should also be taken at the same time of day. I'm having trouble timing a mid-afternoon picture :o but I'll follow up.

Ironically, Sunday's "wild" waves didn't break over my dock (as many here have said it would), and the water was much less murky (on a windy Sunday).

Here's Thursday's picture, followed by a Monday picture: The white part is the end of the dock.

[Jdarby]

Me too, it brings me no joy,,,

At 58 years old I started in cloth diapers and was taught old school values.

We were far from perfect, but we all did a better job of enjoying life and treating people nicer.

Today everyone wants to out-do the other guy and too many people dont seem to care at all they their preference for anything has a negative impact of someone else.

I think about all the boats with monster sound systems blaring music across the lake. I dont even care if I like what they are playing, I still see no reason to blast it to everyone else.

Not the world I grew up in and NOT better,,,

https://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopost/data/502/medium/First_Glastron.jpg

Well said and what a great photo!

[dippasan]

Originally Posted by XCR-700 View Post
Its always easy to stand on the soap box and point fingers of blame, but few will look in the mirror and take responsibility AND then actually and significantly change what they are doing.

Its just human nature to blame the other guy, and to impose your preferences on others for their actions but not actually conform to those standards yourself.

I wish I didn't feel the need to thank you for this comment because I wish it didn't have to be written. But it's so true.

To sum it up......do as I say, not as I do

[dippasan]

Taking a tangent for a moment but what a great boat in the pic XCR. I'm guessing......MFG.....Glaspar? Lark 40? Imagine that on Weirs Bay now on a Saturday be like a dinghy. OK done straying. Day 6 of antibiotics and about as many rolls of tp. Would you like a glass of water?.....no thanks I'm good.

Nothing like a good intestinal parasite to help you get to that target weight.

[mowtorman]

As you well know DPS (that's not dynamic power steering ugh) it's not like bad Chinese food. Best day in four weeks yesterday down about 10 lbs. Hard to believe the result of a "day at the beach" with my oldest trusted friend the lake.

[XCR-700]

Nothing like a good intestinal parasite to help you get to that target weight.

No truer words were ever spoken,,,

Not a fun way to lose the spare tire,,,

[XCR-700]

As you well know DPS (that's not dynamic power steering ugh) it's not like bad Chinese food. Best day in four weeks yesterday down about 10 lbs. Hard to believe the result of a "day at the beach" with my oldest trusted friend the lake.

So you are saying that DPS is not power steering and thus not helping you to either drive or ride the porcelain bus,,, :eek2:

Sorry,,, completely uncalled for,,, I fall on my sword. :rolleye1:

[XCR-700]

what a great photo!

Sorry, according to gillygirl I've jumped the shark on this one. :(

I'll have to come up with another, how about this from 1969 looking down Alton Bay. Clearly I was ready to start the day with a boat ride, usually to Downings for some pre-mix :D

https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/118767102_10217439530849290_3205450279991375231_n. jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=rU5wreVXR4oAX9iJ1ZI&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=f894f9b4b9f43a9a5e902758798d2a41&oe=5F74995E

[LIforrelaxin]

There are inherit risks swimming in any open body of water. And drinking from it for that mater. Unfortunately there are things going on in this lake, and as a rule it is not safe water to drink. And occasionally someone might get a parasite after swimming, but I don't think that happens all that often.

There are issues, with many things going on around the lake, lawn fertilizer, moored boaters need a place to relieve themselves, I can go on.

But there is also a lot of mother nature at work. When I started coming to this lake in the 80s I don't recall seeing geese. Now we have them in large quantities. Plus the Ducks and loons that have always been here. Believe it or not one of the most rampant parasites in our lake is the one that causes what has been labeled "duck itch" well the truth of the mater is it comes from the fecal mater of any water fowl....

There are of course invasive species of fish, and plants that have entered our lake as well. What are the long term effects that they will have is anyone's guess.

Between Man and Mother nature, the lake is dealing with issues it had never encountered before. It is called evolution and it is natural. Winnipesaukee is faring better then a lot of other lakes. Spend time on Lake Champlain, you will understand what I mean. There are parts of the lake choked off by invasive species of plants, I went to a boat launch where I could launch my boat, because the water chestnut growth was so thick, the boat actually sat on top of it and didn't really float, after realizing there was 300 or 400 ft. of this that I was going to have to wade through I put the boat back on the trailer and went else where on the lake.

Am I happy with the water conditions on Winnipesaukee, not at all I try and educate people when I can, about fertilizers, etc. But all in all I think the lake is still clean and enjoyable, and I would rather own on Winnipesaukee then many other big lakes in the area.

Now if people really want to see and bring about change in the lake, let the state open the dam all the way, drain the lake down to the Pre-dam level.... sure it will not be very usable for a while.... but it will bring about change as well..... But I am willing to guess not many people or business would support that idea (including me)..... but hey if we want to talk about change, that is a card on the table.....

[Grant]

...But there is also a lot of mother nature at work. When I started coming to this lake in the 80s I don't recall seeing geese. Now we have them in large quantities. ...

Geese are a pretty new problem, so they're not a priority, but they will be a MAJOR problem if not addressed early. At the risk of being the "broken record," as I've stated this over and over, one needs only to look at states like Pennsylvania, where the non-migratory Canada goose population has destroyed many formerly-great lakes. They multiply, unchecked, and do nothing but eat and poop.

Old septic systems and fertilized lawns should be better regulated. But money talks, and putting any kind of restrictions on "progress" is tough.

[FlyingScot]

Geese are a pretty new problem, so they're not a priority, but they will be a MAJOR problem if not addressed early. At the risk of being the "broken record," as I've stated this over and over, one needs only to look at states like Pennsylvania, where the non-migratory Canada goose population has destroyed many formerly-great lakes. They multiply, unchecked, and do nothing but eat and poop.

Old septic systems and fertilized lawns should be better regulated. But money talks, and putting any kind of restrictions on "progress" is tough.

Agreed on the septic and lawns as I've posted before. Please expand on the geese issue. It's easy to understand in general. I'm interested in your thoughts on why they are growing and what we might do to curb this.

[Merrymeeting]

It's pretty simple. More lawns, more geese.

We never see them near our place. Not surprisingly, neither we nor the neighbors have grass.

https://www.humanesociety.org/sites/default/files/docs/canada-goose-guide.pdf

Canada geese are grazers and prefer grass, especially fertilized
lawn grass. They tend to forage in areas with open sight lines
and access to water where they can see and escape predators.

[Grant]

Agreed on the septic and lawns as I've posted before. Please expand on the geese issue. It's easy to understand in general. I'm interested in your thoughts on why they are growing and what we might do to curb this.

Goose manure is a primary factor for rising E. coli levels in freshwater lakes across the country. The most notable ingredient in goose dook is phosphorous, which can lead to an increase in nasty algae blooms. The average SINGLE goose deposits 1.5 - 2 pounds of fecal matter per day, much of it in the water or on surrounding grassy areas (read: lawns). That adds up quickly.

Where do you see them the most (other than in the water or the sky)? Usually, grassy areas. Check the waterside town park in Meredith. They are there, pooping away, with no predators and ample food. They love those grassy areas...lawns...and will nest there.

How to stop them? Got me. But I'd start with not letting them nest and reproduce on your property if possible.

[XCR-700]

Goose manure is a primary factor for rising E. coli levels in freshwater lakes across the country. The most notable ingredient in goose dook is phosphorous, which can lead to an increase in nasty algae blooms. The average SINGLE goose deposits 1.5 - 2 pounds of fecal matter per day, much of it in the water or on surrounding grassy areas (read: lawns). That adds up quickly.

Where do you see them the most (other than in the water or the sky)? Usually, grassy areas. Check the waterside town park in Meredith. They are there, pooping away, with no predators and ample food. They love those grassy areas...lawns...and will nest there.

How to stop them? Got me. But I'd start with not letting them nest and reproduce on your property if possible.

So why are we not making better use of these critters. Open a chain of Goose-Fil-A and market it aggressively and at very competitive prices and the problem self-resolves. It could be a huge hit in China and help offset our trade imbalance.

Dont laugh too hard, it could work unless the WWF get involved (not the wrestling people,,,)

Better ideas, stop growing highly fertilized grass in multi-million dollar estates, now you can laugh and hard. Not holding my breath.

Oh well, I tried,,,

[barefootbay]

It's pretty simple. More lawns, more geese.

We never see them near our place. Not surprisingly, neither we nor the neighbors have grass.

https://www.humanesociety.org/sites/default/files/docs/canada-goose-guide.pdf

Canada geese are grazers and prefer grass, especially fertilized
lawn grass. They tend to forage in areas with open sight lines
and access to water where they can see and escape predators.

The degradation of the lake is not natural as has been suggested in previous posts. It is purely man made , the water fowl infestation is a result of the lake front being turned into perfect grazing land for them !

[XCR-700]

The degradation of the lake is not natural as has been suggested in previous posts. It is purely man made , the water fowl infestation is a result of the lake front being turned into perfect grazing land for them !

Why would you even want grass on waterfront property??? Then you have to buy a mower AND use it!

In the 1960's this was as good as it got, and not a blade of grass in site.

https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/118764020_10217427880518039_8039778586297301727_n. jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=1Oi2nTt87J0AX8EqbAP&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=0d252687da7e1306701ee101370244e5&oe=5F754235

[mishman]

Glad to see a healthy discussion about lake water quality and contributing factors (lawns, erosion runoff, faulty septic etc.). Twenty years from now I hope we are not looking back to 2020 and saying "we did not appreciate how good the water quality was then compared to now."
What can we do - no lawn fertilizer, pump out your septic every 3-5 yrs - depending on the size, use etc and join and support the Lake Winnipesaukee Association (winnipesaukee.org). LWA is the only organization working with all lake side towns to improve and protect the quality of our water. They deserve your support!

[LIforrelaxin]

Why would you even want grass on waterfront property??? Then you have to buy a mower AND use it!

In the 1960's this was as good as it got, and not a blade of grass in site.

https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/118764020_10217427880518039_8039778586297301727_n. jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=1Oi2nTt87J0AX8EqbAP&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=0d252687da7e1306701ee101370244e5&oe=5F754235

I laugh as my neighbors put in lawns.... even more so when I see that they then higher a landscaping firm to come mow it so they don't have to..... Mean while next year I am planning to aquire 5 yards or so of course sand to spread around, and cover up some new roots that are becoming tripping hazards....

[Descant]

Plant Blueberry sod on top of your lawn. Nice green all year and blueberry pies, muffins are a lot better than anything you can make out of grass.

[Winilyme]

I laugh as my neighbors put in lawns.... even more so when I see that they then higher a landscaping firm to come mow it so they don't have to..... Mean while next year I am planning to aquire 5 yards or so of course sand to spread around, and cover up some new roots that are becoming tripping hazards....

This is all about vanity. A big, sunny, green, fertilized, weedless lawn, probably maintained by someone else, and likely surrounding a large house used a month or two out of the year is equated with status. Fact is, people care more about impressing others than they do about the lake's health. I believe people purposefully avoid connecting these two ideals. They compartmentalize each and conveniently conclude that they can have both. We talk about educating people but does anyone really feel that education is the answer? Mostly, I think, it'll take more extreme measures - regulations and penalties - to get the larger population to listen. I'm sure that will go over great in the Live Free or Die state.

[XCR-700]

This is all about vanity. A big, sunny, green, fertilized, weedless lawn, probably maintained by someone else, and likely surrounding a large house used a month or two out of the year is equated with status. Fact is, people care more about impressing others than they do about the lake's health. I believe people purposefully avoid connecting these two ideals. They compartmentalize each and conveniently conclude that they can have both. We talk about educating people but does anyone really feel that education is the answer? Mostly, I think, it'll take more extreme measures - regulations and penalties - to get the larger population to listen. I'm sure that will go over great in the Live Free or Die state.

I think you have it right and wrong.

The right part is the piece about status and impressing others and all for the 3 months and half dozen trips they make a year.

The wrong part, is the regulation and penalties. In my opinion, you will not stop the problems with regulation and penalties, and more regulation and penalties usually only irritate your potential supporters, especially for the people who do believe generally in the live free, or die values.

If the problem you are trying to fix is too many lawns and associated fertilizer, then you need to convince people something else is the new in thing and better option.

Sell your belief or idea, don't force it, you get better results.

[Descant]

I hope that over the next few years, getting your house certified as "Lake Smart" will have more cache and prestige than a big green lawn. Probably, most non-bridged island properties already qualify, just need to fill out the survey and have a quick inspection. Right now, it's free. Details on NHLAKES.org. Probably next year, when Covid is under control and we are all more comfortable with visitors.

[Winilyme]

I think you have it right and wrong.

The right part is the piece about status and impressing others and all for the 3 months and half dozen trips they make a year.

The wrong part, is the regulation and penalties. In my opinion, you will not stop the problems with regulation and penalties, and more regulation and penalties usually only irritate your potential supporters, especially for the people who do believe generally in the live free, or die values.

If the problem you are trying to fix is too many lawns and associated fertilizer, then you need to convince people something else is the new in thing and better option.

Sell your belief or idea, don't force it, you get better results.

I don't like my suggestion either. But selling people on ripping out their lawns, or letting them go to nature, or not planting them in the first place just isn't going to work. Look around, is it working now?

Frankly, many of these folks are going to look at you like you're crazy - if they even listen at all. They already know what they are doing is wrong but they look away. You aren't going to get them to the free one hour talk about lake health at the local community center. They aren't reading environmental newsletters or websites and I doubt they know what their landscaper is putting on their lawns. Heck, they probably aren't even here. I just don't see a working formula that scores significant results by simply convincing people through education and dialogue that they are better off sacrificing personally for the benefit of the lake. I'm not suggesting that education isn't valuable. Only that it isn't going to resonate with a large majority of property owners on or near the lake.

I'm not sure my suggestion works but I'm convinced simply selling ideas doesn't. The heavily used lake results in complex problems that require widespread solutions. There are too many people with singular motivations that are rotating in and out of here each and every year. This is all too much for just selling and education.

[XCR-700]

Ok, then figure out how to not throw out the bathwater as the baby may need to be washed,,, Try other solutions than the standard pass a law and restrict it strategy.

How about synthetic lawns, I understand they are all the rage in water challenged areas. No need to water, fertilizer, mow, weed, and ducks cant eat it.

We always seem to force matters into all or nothing situation and then you invariably get push-back, next the restrictions start and then the bypass begins because people always want what you cant have. Look at the rampant problems with illegal fireworks in Massachusetts because they are totally outlawed. Same thing with gun limits, the more you add restrictions, the more people want them. And lets not forget the battle about sport boats in NH, start layering on restrictions and all you get is a battle.

Find a better path, it works better.

Restrictions better be justified by an undeniable and imminent life threatening consequence AND be very obvious or you will not get the widespread support you need in the form of compliance.

There are always options.

And you also need to consider that many of us believe the planet is here for us to use, NOT ABUSE, but use, and with use comes some acceptable wear and tear and impact, so find that middle ground or buckle up for a battle.

[Descant]

To me, many of these posts are a very short term outlook, less than a generation. Fifty years ago, Stewart Lamprey and other water activists passed enabling legislation along with federal funding to build the Winnipesaukee River waste water treatment plan. Instead of failing septic systems leaching into the lake, we have sewer all along the western side of the lake from Moultonboro to West Alton. The newbies who have been here less than, say, 40 years, take it for granted. There are very few septics left now. Not Winni exactly, but about 20 years ago, the state bought about one million+ acres of land in the north country, set aside 25,000 acres of old growth as forever wild, put a conservation easement on the rest and sold it to wood product industries. Long term vision and action by an entire state. That's pretty rare.
Now we talk about, on a small scale, lawns. But we're really talking about our statewide water resources. Education may be a slower process, but I can see where, in 25 years, the real estate listing won't say " new kitchen", or "beautiful lawn" but will say "low maintenance lake friendly landscaping". There will be a market bonus for a certified "Lake Smart" property. I'm not a tree hugger, but I am thinking about my grandchildren, and I hope they will think about their grandchildren. Sorry to be preachy.

[Winilyme]

To me, many of these posts are a very short term outlook, less than a generation. Fifty years ago, Stewart Lamprey and other water activists passed enabling legislation along with federal funding to build the Winnipesaukee River waste water treatment plan. Instead of failing septic systems leaching into the lake, we have sewer all along the western side of the lake from Moultonboro to West Alton. The newbies who have been here less than, say, 40 years, take it for granted. There are very few septics left now. Not Winni exactly, but about 20 years ago, the state bought about one million+ acres of land in the north country, set aside 25,000 acres of old growth as forever wild, put a conservation easement on the rest and sold it to wood product industries. Long term vision and action by an entire state. That's pretty rare.
Now we talk about, on a small scale, lawns. But we're really talking about our statewide water resources. Education may be a slower process, but I can see where, in 25 years, the real estate listing won't say " new kitchen", or "beautiful lawn" but will say "low maintenance lake friendly landscaping". There will be a market bonus for a certified "Lake Smart" property. I'm not a tree hugger, but I am thinking about my grandchildren, and I hope they will think about their grandchildren. Sorry to be preachy.

25 years ago we built our home in CT. We chose to install a ground source geothermal heat pump - a new thing in CT at the time. We were one of the first 50 residential units to be installed in the state...deciding to move forward with the help of incentives courtesy of our electric utility. Today, geothermal is very much a selling advantage in real estate listings. So, I think your point is a good one. Still, I am sure that the health of the lake cannot be solved by education alone. Someone’s going to have to wave a big stick.

By the way, that geo system we bought was a great decision. It’s saved us boatloads of money and is a very safe, environmentally friendly and comfortable heat and AC source.

[XCR-700]

25 years ago we built our home in CT. We chose to install a ground source geothermal heat pump - a new thing in CT at the time. We were one of the first 50 residential units to be installed in the state...deciding to move forward with the help of incentives courtesy of our electric utility. Today, geothermal is very much a selling advantage in real estate listings. So, I think your point is a good one. Still, I am sure that the health of the lake cannot be solved by education alone. Someone’s going to have to wave a big stick.

By the way, that geo system we bought was a great decision. It’s saved us boatloads of money and is a very safe, environmentally friendly and comfortable heat and AC source.

RE; Your Geothermal system

And that is EXACTLY my point, no one forced you to put it in and now you can sing the praises of how good it is and how much you saved.

Thats a much better AND more effective method than a big stick in places like NH.

Dont go to NH and "tell" anyone what they must do, convince them and you will have a strong following. It has been my observation that people from NH are very practical and may not jump on the bandwagon right away waiting to see if its BS or a fad, but once they see the clear truth, they will do whats right for them. But threaten them with a big stick and you may come to regret it, or at the very least, you will only slow the progress you seek.

My two cents and observations, your opinion may vary.

[Descant]

25 years ago we built our home in CT. We chose to install a ground source geothermal heat pump - a new thing in CT at the time. We were one of the first 50 residential units to be installed in the state...deciding to move forward with the help of incentives courtesy of our electric utility. Today, geothermal is very much a selling advantage in real estate listings. So, I think your point is a good one. Still, I am sure that the health of the lake cannot be solved by education alone. Someone’s going to have to wave a big stick.

By the way, that geo system we bought was a great decision. It’s saved us boatloads of money and is a very safe, environmentally friendly and comfortable heat and AC source.
Good for you and your geothermal system. We need people who will try some new technology that may or may not work.
Unfortunately, the "big stick" too often means new laws but also requires new state or federal funding. That translates into taxes. The incentive programs go away, but the taxes remain. Go slow. Do it for the grandchildren, not for yourself.

[ApS]

...was kayaking yesterday. Pulled a plastic bag out of the lake only to find it was full of someone's poop. Credit to her for not dropping it back in the lake. Would love to know who did that and where they lived. I'd mail it back to them.I was visiting my next-door neighbors (by boat!), when I saw something strange floating by. Investigating, what I'd seen was a hoof. The rest of the deer was under water. Most everything dead arrives in Johnson's Cove, but that doesn't seem to discourage dozens of weekend visitors. Maybe they've experienced worse "at home"? :rolleye2:

Returning to my neighbors, they told me of seeing a disposable diaper floating by in the same direction. (A different season). They still drink directly from the lake, from about 2½ feet of water. Winter Harbor must be relatively clean: Nobody has reported sickness along this shore.

Today, just a week after seeing one other, I saw a second "disposed" aluminum can floating by. :rolleye1: Deposits can't come soon enough—not to include diapers! :eek2:

Shampooing their hair, two male visitors were the only case of "soaping-up" I've ever witnessed. Fortunately, both were nearly bald! :laugh:

As for cleaning boats in the lake, I've seen only one case, where the elderly couple must have spent two hours scrubbing the topside. That is, excluding the case of my BIL, who poured a bucket of second-hand PineSol into the lake. This transformed about three acres of Lake Winnipesaukee (right to the bottom) to a bright, opaque white. :(

'Course, exceptionally heavy boat traffic wakes (for a Thursday) a week ago stirred up shoreline sediments, so the lake bottom (normally very clear at 9 feet) turned murky.
:confused:

[XCR-700]

Hummm,,, bags of poop and dirty diapers and a dead deer, so then maybe the buckets of Pinesol balance it all out. :(

I think I would be punching a water well into the ground and get just a bit of mother earth filtration,,,

I used to think I'll give up pepsi some day, until a friend commented to another about his drinking from the water fountain down in Alton Bay. It went something like this;

Are you going to drink that, ya why, dont you know fish > had relations< in that! Well it was a version of that,,, :eek:

Cant make this stuff up. :rolleye1:

[ApS]

From 1963 to 1965 we vacationed at the Piscopo's Mountainview Cottages on Winnisquam. We thought it was a blast to make snowballs from the green seaweed like algae that accumulated on the beach. This resulted from the many camps that dumped into the lakes above. The second major factor was the number of overnight cruisers that could stay either anchored by an island or at town docks like Weirs. There was one cruiser named La Grenouille that basically never moved from the Weirs docks on the weekends. Cruisers discharged directly into the lake with much of it in the area of the Weirs docks. Imagine it flowing right past the beach? The lakeside pumping septic lines up Paugus Bay and the then new no discharge laws were immensely helpful. We keep loading up the lake from other sources and the conditions will return. BTW TMI but yes it is giardia and no I'm not wandering much at the moment. Part of why the forum if so intriguing. I apologize for setting new lows for such a fecy post.
Yet, right here, we have advocates for visitors to anchor overnight! :mad:

Where I winter in Florida, the Marine Patrol inspects the pump-out logbooks of those anchored off the shoreline. And this is overlooking the Atlantic Ocean! :eek:

[XCR-700]

Yet, right here, we have advocates for visitors to anchor overnight! :mad:

Where I winter in Florida, the Marine Patrol inspects the pump-out logbooks of those anchored off the shoreline. And this is overlooking the Atlantic Ocean! :eek:

What the heck is a "pump-out logbook"

Are you talking about a different class of boat?

And what would good does that do if they didnt log the event, but had a macerator and just opened the valve and pumped away??? Having lived in Fla twice is was not my observation that the locals were too concerned about rules/laws if they thought there was any way to get away with it and not be caught.

[mowtorman]

http://winnipesaukeegateway.org

Specifically.....Lake Management.......Water Quality and Lake Health


Comprehensive lake report. Good news 5 weeks out strong meds much better best avoided for sure.

[Descant]

quote"Good news 5 weeks out strong meds much better best avoided for sure."
Can somebody translate this or fill in the missing words and punctuation?
Than you.

[mowtorman]

To clarify I was referring to Giardiasis the illness Dippasan identified and the origin of the post. Sorry for the confusion.

[ApS]

What the heck is a "pump-out logbook"

Are you talking about a different class of boat?

And what would good does that do if they didn't log the event, but had a macerator and just opened the valve and pumped away??? Having lived in Fla twice is was not my observation that the locals were too concerned about rules/laws if they thought there was any way to get away with it and not be caught.
Correct; however, blue-green algae has invaded much of Florida's East Coast waters—fresh and salt. :eek:

A "pump-out logbook" is now part of Martin County's new regulations regarding their ocean-connected waterways. One's overnight presence is recorded by the MP and you'll be fined for not having appropriate pump-outs stamped in a logbook. My understanding is that Monroe County has also enlisted the MPs in pump-out records, but there may be others.

"Liveaboards", cruisers and cruising sailboats anchored near shorelines are the targeted "class".

I'm reading that North Carolina has announced similar regulations.

https://cruisersnet.net/new-law-pumpout-log-to-be-required-in-nc/

[XCR-700]

Interesting, and makes more sense if its targeting larger boats.

Thanks

[ApS]

Why hasn't New Hampshire addressed the REAL problem of increasing pollution in Lake Winnipesaukee?

Back in the years I was cooling my beverages with ice cut from Winter Harbor waters, the load capacity of most boats here was two! :eek:

Today, it wouldn't be unusual to watch a visiting weekend boat go by--carrying 20 people! :eek: :eek:

An "ordinary" Malibu ski boat that sank off Rattlesnake Island (and recovered) had been carrying 13--IIRC. :eek2:

Isn't it time that registration fees be based on boat capacity? After all, it's their impact on the water quality of Lake Winnipesaukee.

Fees shouldn't go to NH's "General Funds", anyway... :rolleye1:

[mswlogo]

Why hasn't New Hampshire addressed the REAL problem of increasing pollution in Lake Winnipesaukee?

Back in the years I was cooling my beverages with ice cut from Winter Harbor waters, the load capacity of most boats here was two! :eek:

Today, it wouldn't be unusual to watch a visiting weekend boat go by--carrying 20 people! :eek: :eek:

An "ordinary" Malibu ski boat that sank off Rattlesnake Island (and recovered) had been carrying 13--IIRC. :eek2:

Isn't it time that registration fees be based on boat capacity? After all, it's their impact on the water quality of Lake Winnipesaukee.

Fees shouldn't go to NH's "General Funds", anyway... :rolleye1:

I think it already factors in HP and length which pretty much indirectly covers it and probably a better measure of impact on average.

The bulk of the pollution on the lakes is from runoff. Due to removing the buffer, around the lakes, in some cases miles away from the effected lakes. Runoff not only includes fertilizer but also chemicals that never break down, like PCP’s and DDT that still exist. Then the accelerated plant growth impacts the oxygen, which impacts the species that help naturally keep the lakes clean.

Boats and people for 3 months a year do have impact but it’s managing runoff that is key. Thinking of buying on Squam or Winni we researched the hell out of it. If you want to help volunteer or donate with one the groups that work around the lakes that work on projects to control runoff. They install dry wells, buffers etc.

[Patofnaud]

"the load capacity of most boats here was two!"

With engines that left nice little 2 stroke rainbows behind them. ;) And camps that dumped raw sewage straight into the lake.

Boats today do carry more folks but in all tend to be MUCH cleaner that all those 2 stroke and through hull exhaust boats and macrator pumps. Boats today are cleaner, just a LOT more boats today.

[Descant]

Boat registration fees go largely to the Navigation Safety Fund (MP) Fish and Game for SAR and to DES for lake quality programs. The tax portion may go to the state or to the local town if you register at a marina or town office. Not so much to the general funds.
Of course, sailboats and kayaks, etc without motors get all these benefits of improved lakes, launch ramps, MP, navaids for free.

[barefootbay]

I think it already factors in HP and length which pretty much indirectly covers it and probably a better measure of impact on average.

The bulk of the pollution on the lakes is from runoff. Due to removing the buffer, around the lakes, in some cases miles away from the effected lakes. Runoff not only includes fertilizer but also chemicals that never break down, like PCP’s and DDT that still exist. Then the accelerated plant growth impacts the oxygen, which impacts the species that help naturally keep the lakes clean.

Boats and people for 3 months a year do have impact but it’s managing runoff that is key. Thinking of buying on Squam or Winni we researched the hell out of it. If you want to help volunteer or donate with one the groups that work around the lakes that work on projects to control runoff. They install dry wells, buffers etc.
It’s a combination of all the above . More run off , more boats , more and bigger houses, more sewage, last but not least more and more people which is having a cumulative effect on the lake .

[mswlogo]

It’s a combination of all the above . More run off , more boats , more and bigger houses, more sewage, last but not least more and more people which is having a cumulative effect on the lake .

True.

But the tiny cabin near the waters edge that is 80 years old without an updated septic probably pollutes more than the McMansion with a properly installed septic.

Or the old tiny 2 cycle 1960 Johnson outboard probably pollutes more than the dual V8 cigarette boat.

Don't assume size is all that matters.

But the bulk of the pollution is runoff. I'm not saying the others things are not worth monitoring and finding solutions for.

My point is some folks seem to think if we were back in the 1950's mentality all the pollution would not exist. Most of the pollution today is due to the practices back from the 1950's. And if we were as strict today back then the lakes would be in better shape.

[FlyingScot]

My point is some folks seem to think if we were back in the 1950's mentality all the pollution would not exist. Most of the pollution today is due to the practices back from the 1950's. And if we were as strict today back then the lakes would be in better shape.

This is a great point. From another angle--if we were following 1950's practices with 2020 population of people and boats, the lake would be an environmental disaster.

We need to improve our environmental practices as we expand, or we'll lose the lake.

[fatlazyless]

Of course, sailboats and kayaks, etc without motors get all these benefits of improved lakes, launch ramps, MP, navaids for free.

Is not totally true for sailboats because a sailboat 12' length or more, without a motor, pays a registration fee, starting at about $40/yr.

With no motor, and 12' to 16' sail boat length, the hull id bow numbers are optional and just the colored sticker is required without the hull registration numbers on the bow. So, a 14' Sunfish pays about $40/yr and needs to have just the two colored bow stickers for the year.

An 11'10" sailboat with no motor pays no fee ...... and I have one ..... a CL- Echo!!! ..... :laugh:

The rudder and rudder holder brackets, aka the gudgeons and pintles, are NOT included when measuring the sail boat length. Is only the hull, itself.

[mswlogo]

This is a great point. From another angle--if we were following 1950's practices with 2020 population of people and boats, the lake would be an environmental disaster.

We need to improve our environmental practices as we expand, or we'll lose the lake.

Exactly. It's a tough challenge.

[ApS]

True.

But the tiny cabin near the waters edge that is 80 years old without an updated septic probably pollutes more than the McMansion with a properly installed septic.

Or the old tiny 2 cycle 1960 Johnson outboard probably pollutes more than the dual V8 cigarette boat.

Don't assume size is all that matters.

But the bulk of the pollution is runoff. I'm not saying the others things are not worth monitoring and finding solutions for.

My point is some folks seem to think if we were back in the 1950's mentality all the pollution would not exist. Most of the pollution today is due to the practices back from the 1950's. And if we were as strict today back then the lakes would be in better shape.
Cabins rarely achieve an age of 50 years on Winter Harbor.

One near me was 50 years old, and was just torn down last week. Some local tear-downs had concrete basements!

The former will become a McMansion, built beside a Mega-McMansion with three fireplaces. :eek2: They advertise for summer renters saying it will support five families! :eek:

Before we built here, a woodsman "harvested" every marketable White Pine tree on our acre. As a result, eroding boat wakes are slowly sliding our entire lot into the lake!

A few large Maple trees were left (showing the maple "taps" when used for maple syrup in the 1940s-1950s).

But the largest trees left behind were Eastern Hemlock, which have no redeeming value; that is, besides providing shade. :rolleye1:

Anyway, I noticed that our Eastern Hemlock needle "duff" was being crushed into mud by repeated hammerings of boat wakes: Where there used to be sand, this shoreline now has deep soggy soil pockets that can trip you up. :(

New weeds (to this area) have taken root. Could these changes introduce new single-cell life-forms to Lake Winnipesaukee?

We know the lake has giardia, gleoetrichia, and blue-green bacteria at present. What other life-forms can present a fourth toxic menace? We've read about it happening elsewhere:

https://nypost.com/2020/09/23/amoeba-found-in-soil-kills-gardener-turns-his-brain-into-liquid/

[XCR-700]

As a complete outsider and non-resident "the Winnipesaukee pollution Problem" as one poster put it seems like it is not one problem, but several complaints/concerns.


Is the lake clean enough to swim in, given all the concerns about people using it for their personal bathroom and other medical issues raised?

Can you use the lake water to drink from without significant levels of treatment?

Can the lake water be even better with restrictions, fines, increased boat registration fees?

Can the lake water be even better with home owner restrictions, changes in practices, and less waterfront homes?


Well for issue #1 I hope so, given how many swim in the lake every year, but in truth the bulk of that activity occurs for maybe 10 - 12 weeks at best, and the peek maybe as little as 4 - 6 weeks. So, it really begs the question of people on/in the water having a long-lasting impact. MAYBE for a short time, but it seems unlikely a lasting impact comes from people on/in the water.

Issue #2 probably looks very different to an outsider, there is no way I am configuring my drinking water to come from any body of water near a population without significant filtration, and even then I might still opt for a well. Is it really so costly to drill a well right next to a lake? Given that the houses we are talking about are often now valued over a million dollars and maybe much more, is the cost of a well and a treatment system even significant?

For issue #3, the cynic in me says no amount of increased cost or fines or fees or fuel tax will change whats going on. In the 21st century people seem to have unlimited spending power for what they want, even if its on borrowed money. I think the gas guzzler tax vs the electric car government incentives is a perfect example of a total failure and sham perpetrated on the tax payers. Americans want big powerful boats, trucks, and SUV's, and no financial program is changing that, not even when gas hit $4.00+/gal. Any change in usage will need to come from a different base than increased cost.

And sadly issue #4 is similar, you folks who live there and voice concern are also the ones who have the power to change this now. Give up lawns, stop clearing and maintaining your lots, move away and turn your property into conservation land. Ya, not even close to realistic. Pretty much the same as issue #3. People want what they want, and somehow feel their presence on the planet is not a contributing factor to these concerns, its always the other guy who is doing something more harmful that is the real problem.

I have NO answers is any of this and in truth believe the planet is here for us to use. Not abuse, but use. And based on what I see (not hear) most of you believe the same thing, or you would live in cities and just look at webcam images of Winnipesaukee so as to not impact it in any way.

Well this should be more than enough to get me pulverized in responses,,,:(

[FlyingScot]

As a complete outsider and non-resident "the Winnipesaukee pollution Problem" as one poster put it seems like it is not one problem, but several complaints/concerns.


Is the lake clean enough to swim in, given all the concerns about people using it for their personal bathroom and other medical issues raised?

Can you use the lake water to drink from without significant levels of treatment?

Can the lake water be even better with restrictions, fines, increased boat registration fees?

Can the lake water be even better with home owner restrictions, changes in practices, and less waterfront homes?


Well for issue #1 I hope so, given how many swim in the lake every year, but in truth the bulk of that activity occurs for maybe 10 - 12 weeks at best, and the peek maybe as little as 4 - 6 weeks. So, it really begs the question of people on/in the water having a long-lasting impact. MAYBE for a short time, but it seems unlikely a lasting impact comes from people on/in the water.

Issue #2 probably looks very different to an outsider, there is no way I am configuring my drinking water to come from any body of water near a population without significant filtration, and even then I might still opt for a well. Is it really so costly to drill a well right next to a lake? Given that the houses we are talking about are often now valued over a million dollars and maybe much more, is the cost of a well and a treatment system even significant?

For issue #3, the cynic in me says no amount of increased cost or fines or fees or fuel tax will change whats going on. In the 21st century people seem to have unlimited spending power for what they want, even if its on borrowed money. I think the gas guzzler tax vs the electric car government incentives is a perfect example of a total failure and sham perpetrated on the tax payers. Americans want big powerful boats, trucks, and SUV's, and no financial program is changing that, not even when gas hit $4.00+/gal. Any change in usage will need to come from a different base than increased cost.

And sadly issue #4 is similar, you folks who live there and voice concern are also the ones who have the power to change this now. Give up lawns, stop clearing and maintaining your lots, move away and turn your property into conservation land. Ya, not even close to realistic. Pretty much the same as issue #3. People want what they want, and somehow feel their presence on the planet is not a contributing factor to these concerns, its always the other guy who is doing something more harmful that is the real problem.

I have NO answers is any of this and in truth believe the planet is here for us to use. Not abuse, but use. And based on what I see (not hear) most of you believe the same thing, or you would live in cities and just look at webcam images of Winnipesaukee so as to not impact it in any way.

Well this should be more than enough to get me pulverized in responses,,,:(

We know the answers to all of these questions. The lake is obviously great for swimming and not advised for drinking.

You're way too cynical on the inability of government and people to help the lake. Gas guzzler taxes and MPG requirements did improve average fuel economy. Government incentives for EVs (and solar) have been essential to getting both of those industries off the ground, and we are now weaning ourselves off of them as the economics of the new technology are becoming equal to the old entrenched stuff. (plenty of documentation for all these assertions if you google) And as ishoot has pointed out--uses (abuses) of the lake by individuals were much worse decades ago. We can do this!:)

[XCR-700]

We know the answers to all of these questions. The lake is obviously great for swimming and not advised for drinking.

You're way too cynical on the inability of government and people to help the lake. Gas guzzler taxes and MPG requirements did improve average fuel economy. Government incentives for EVs (and solar) have been essential to getting both of those industries off the ground, and we are now weaning ourselves off of them as the economics of the new technology are becoming equal to the old entrenched stuff. (plenty of documentation for all these assertions if you google) And as ishoot has pointed out--uses (abuses) of the lake by individuals were much worse decades ago. We can do this!:)

Hummm, guess we have different glasses.

I'll totally confess to your comment "You're way too cynical on the inability of government and people to help the lake." The problem is I work for uncle Sam, and it is as corrupt and inefficient and wrong-headed as many believe. The incompetence of many of my coworkers dumbfounding and the countless wasted tax dollars I see every day is enough to make me literally sick every day. I once had this epiphany, that we should never have a military draft unless the enemy is marching onto our shores, BUT, if you want to make the United States government better, make EVERY kid serve 1 full year as a civil servant as soon as they graduate from high school and before college or any time off period. After a year if they dont want to change things in government, then there is no hope for the future and government will forever more remain dysfunctional.

Regarding "Gas guzzler taxes and MPG requirements did improve average fuel economy." Sorry, most of it is a lie, the actual EPA ratings are worthless and do not represent how people use their cars. In addition the manufacturers fudge the tests to make their numbers look good. Perfect example was the brilliant but total fraud of the diesel emission testing. My current truck averages 12MPG in real world driving, just the same as if you had a 1975 truck of the same class. And if you want a 30MPG car, you can certainly find many, but they were actually also available in 1975, just less people wanted them back then.

As for your comment "Government incentives for EVs (and solar) have been essential to getting both of those industries off the ground, and we are now weaning ourselves off of them as the economics of the new technology are becoming equal to the old entrenched stuff." AGREED! But in truth that money didnt come from no where, "I" am paying for those changes, and as I dont use any of them, arguably, "I" am not getting anything for my tax dollars. How is that fair?

I will forego any discussion about what is best from an environmental perspective for the moment, even though I believe EV cars and the whole solar industry "currently" have just as many problems as the carbon-fuel industry. They may be different environmental problems, but they unquestionably have them. But I will concede that if the "current" EV car and solar industry stay small, its a reasonable stepping stone to a better future that will come in time.

Well thats what I see through my glasses. Your vision my be different.

[Descant]

It's not just Winnipesaukee. Smaller lakes have bigger problemsbecause thewy can't absorb the abuse. Many thatr used to be vac ation oriented are now supporting year round living. Fortunately, this means better caretakers, and better understanding or our responsibilities.
www.NHLAKES.org publishes a booklet aimed at what we can do to make our lakes clean and healthy. Most ideas there are fairly simple, but, as with many simple things we just need to be reminded.

[thinkxingu]

Sorry, according to gillygirl I've jumped the shark on this one. :(

I'll have to come up with another, how about this from 1969 looking down Alton Bay. Clearly I was ready to start the day with a boat ride, usually to Downings for some pre-mix :D

https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/118767102_10217439530849290_3205450279991375231_n. jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=rU5wreVXR4oAX9iJ1ZI&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=f894f9b4b9f43a9a5e902758798d2a41&oe=5F74995EI forgot to mention when I first saw this: "jumped the shark" is not an apt cliché here. What you meant to say is, "I was late to the party" or "I've succumb to the torture of Sisyphus" to indicate having missed something that already happened or trite repetition as opposed to "jumping the shark" indicating something no longer popular.

I'm interested in any other clichés that would apply as well!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[XCR-700]

I forgot to mention when I first saw this: "jumped the shark" is not an apt cliché here. What you meant to say is, "I was late to the party" or "I've succumb to the torture of Sisyphus" to indicate having missed something that already happened or trite repetition as opposed to "jumping the shark" indicating something no longer popular.

I'm interested in any other clichés that would apply as well!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

No "jumped the shark" was the right term as it was referring to over use of the same baby photo I had posted several times.

If you are referring to something else, then the lesson is lost on me without additional detail.

Sorry :rolleye1:

[gillygirl]

No "jumped the shark" was the right term as it was referring to over use of the same baby photo I had posted several times.

If you are referring to something else, then the lesson is lost on me without additional detail.

Sorry :rolleye1:

“Jumping the shark is an idiom used to describe a moment when something that was once widely popular, but has since grown less popular, makes a misguided attempt at generating publicity that instead only serves to highlight its irrelevance. This is especially applicable to television series or other entertainment outlets.[1] The phrase derives from an episode of sitcom Happy Days (1974–1984), in which the character Fonzie jumps over a shark while on water-skis.[2][3][4] This gimmick strayed absurdly outside the original storyline of the sitcom.”

You didn’t jump the shark, you just used one pic too often. I love this pic.


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[XCR-700]

Ah, whatever happened to those boyish good looks and blond hair.

Gone with the beloved boat and my youth and those pajamas,,,

I suppose it would be inappropriate, in this thread, to ask for advice for a Viking funeral on Winnipesaukee,,, I figure my first pictures were here, and so should my last pictures.

I probably still have a few good years in me, so I'll hold that discussion for a later date/different thread :laugh:

https://scontent-bos3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/120177015_10217572177245367_1068976758392849775_n. jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=S5cpDw9Wk-gAX_dCo5T&_nc_ht=scontent-bos3-1.xx&oh=33a3c0d06a4afe4b7ef0cb69a51122d1&oe=5F91878E

[FlyingScot]

Hummm, guess we have different glasses.

I'll totally confess to your comment "You're way too cynical on the inability of government and people to help the lake." The problem is I work for uncle Sam, and it is as corrupt and inefficient and wrong-headed as many believe. The incompetence of many of my coworkers dumbfounding and the countless wasted tax dollars I see every day is enough to make me literally sick every day. I once had this epiphany, that we should never have a military draft unless the enemy is marching onto our shores, BUT, if you want to make the United States government better, make EVERY kid serve 1 full year as a civil servant as soon as they graduate from high school and before college or any time off period. After a year if they dont want to change things in government, then there is no hope for the future and government will forever more remain dysfunctional.

Regarding "Gas guzzler taxes and MPG requirements did improve average fuel economy." Sorry, most of it is a lie, the actual EPA ratings are worthless and do not represent how people use their cars. In addition the manufacturers fudge the tests to make their numbers look good. Perfect example was the brilliant but total fraud of the diesel emission testing. My current truck averages 12MPG in real world driving, just the same as if you had a 1975 truck of the same class. And if you want a 30MPG car, you can certainly find many, but they were actually also available in 1975, just less people wanted them back then.

As for your comment "Government incentives for EVs (and solar) have been essential to getting both of those industries off the ground, and we are now weaning ourselves off of them as the economics of the new technology are becoming equal to the old entrenched stuff." AGREED! But in truth that money didnt come from no where, "I" am paying for those changes, and as I dont use any of them, arguably, "I" am not getting anything for my tax dollars. How is that fair?

I will forego any discussion about what is best from an environmental perspective for the moment, even though I believe EV cars and the whole solar industry "currently" have just as many problems as the carbon-fuel industry. They may be different environmental problems, but they unquestionably have them. But I will concede that if the "current" EV car and solar industry stay small, its a reasonable stepping stone to a better future that will come in time.

Well thats what I see through my glasses. Your vision my be different.

Our disagreement on EVs and gas guzzler taxes is irrelevant to my original point. My original point was that government taxes, incentives, and rules can change people's behavior (and thus can help the lake). You might not like EVs, just for example, but I'm pretty sure you'd agree that without the $7500 rebate (that is now being phased out), the EV industry would be much smaller.

[XCR-700]

Our disagreement on EVs and gas guzzler taxes is irrelevant to my original point. My original point was that government taxes, incentives, and rules can change people's behavior (and thus can help the lake). You might not like EVs, just for example, but I'm pretty sure you'd agree that without the $7500 rebate (that is now being phased out), the EV industry would be much smaller.

I completely agree as a positive incentive the gift of money (especially substantial amounts of money) will change peoples behavior.

But I also completely disagree that so long as the penalties are in the realm of affordable, that they will have ANY impact.

A $1200 gas guzzler tax is not going to cause a potential buyer of a $70,000 Corvette from buying their dream car and spending that money AND get the incentive to buy a Tesla 4 door EV. Its just not happening.

Nor would a $50 fertilizer use fine stop a home owner from getting the lawn they desire.

And again, for the record, I fully support EV's as a very modest gateway technology, but they have a long way to go to be clean.

And to bring this back to your point, there is very significant difference between a reasonable use fine and incentive reward program and the bazaar and inappropriate government intervention in the automotive sales/use taxation and incentive programs: Why should the government significantly tax me for something like this and egregiously reward you. Thats NOT the job of government. Its WRONG to tax me on this and gift you with my money, especially when your EV has a laundry list of cradle to grave environmental and other problems.

I guess that this is an example of a more classic view of the role of Government, as opposed to the dysfunctional government we have currently devolved into.

So in the end, dont be surprised that someone who is not personally shopping for an EV is further alienated about EV's to know that the EV buyers who brag about the incentives were gifted that money from those who were not dissuaded from buying what they wanted and suffered the gas guzzler tax. Well thats one cur buyers perspective.

And sorry the EV/gas guzzler subject keeps popping up in this thread about Winnipesaukee water quality,but it does have some bearing, if only in the larger whole world perspective.

:cheers:

[FlyingScot]

I completely agree as a positive incentive the gift of money (especially substantial amounts of money) will change peoples behavior.

But I also completely disagree that so long as the penalties are in the realm of affordable, that they will have ANY impact.

A $1200 gas guzzler tax is not going to cause a potential buyer of a $70,000 Corvette from buying their dream car and spending that money AND get the incentive to buy a Tesla 4 door EV. Its just not happening.

Nor would a $50 fertilizer use fine stop a home owner from getting the lawn they desire.

And again, for the record, I fully support EV's as a very modest gateway technology, but they have a long way to go to be clean.

And to bring this back to your point, there is very significant difference between a reasonable use fine and incentive reward program and the bazaar and inappropriate government intervention in the automotive sales/use taxation and incentive programs: Why should the government significantly tax me for something like this and egregiously reward you. Thats NOT the job of government. Its WRONG to tax me on this and gift you with my money, especially when your EV has a laundry list of cradle to grave environmental and other problems.

I guess that this is an example of a more classic view of the role of Government, as opposed to the dysfunctional government we have currently devolved into.

So in the end, dont be surprised that someone who is not personally shopping for an EV is further alienated about EV's to know that the EV buyers who brag about the incentives were gifted that money from those who were not dissuaded from buying what they wanted and suffered the gas guzzler tax. Well thats one cur buyers perspective.

And sorry the EV/gas guzzler subject keeps popping up in this thread about Winnipesaukee water quality,but it does have some bearing, if only in the larger whole world perspective.

:cheers:

I agree that small penalties/rewards are silly.

On fertilizer, just for example, I think people directly on the lake should not be allowed to use fertilizer that contains phosphorous. It's basically pouring a known pollutant directly into the water.

On EVs, I think the USA made a smart investment in a critical technology for the future, and now an American company is kicking the butts of our frenemies overseas. It's done this many times in the past. Some of the bets don't pay off (I'm sure we could find hundreds that fail), but some of them turn out to be the internet, GPS, cancer cures, etc.