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SAMIAM
04-11-2020, 08:15 AM
I've noticed that Belknap county as of Friday, has only 21 confirmed cases and not all of them were hospitalized. That seems like it would be manageable number for our health care system. Also throughout the state the numbers have slowly risen but certainly there have been many recoveries which are not reflected in the reporting. Recovery time is two weeks for mild cases and 3-6 weeks for those that are critical.
It looks like we should be gaining but the media seems to paint the bleakest picture that it can.

Not to Worry
04-11-2020, 08:46 AM
NH is more rural than Mass, NY etc... so it logical that we have less cases, and that is especially true because of the shutdown in NH that is saving lives. The media is not over hyping it. Main street journalism is not fake news. Facts are facts.

I understand that a lot of small companies, restaurants etc., are not going to come out of this ok. Doubt many of use will come out unscathed. Especially because there is no end it sight. Vaccine seems to be the only way and that is at least 12++ months away. Until that day and until you somehow vaccinate 300 million ++ people thing are a long way from returning to normal.

From the NYT yesterday, "In the first five days of April, 1,125 people were pronounced dead in their homes or on the street in New York City, more than eight times the deaths recorded during the same period in 2019, according to the Fire Department.

Many of these deaths were probably caused by Covid-19, but were not accounted for in the coronavirus tallies given by Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo during his widely watched daily news conferences — statistics that are viewed as key measures of the impact of the outbreak.

On Thursday, Mr. Cuomo said 799 people in New York had died from coronavirus in a single 24-hour period — more than 33 an hour — bringing the state’s total to 7,067.

But epidemiologists, city officials and medical personnel say those numbers are likely to be far below the city’s actual death toll.

FlyingScot
04-11-2020, 09:17 AM
I've noticed that Belknap county as of Friday,has only 21 confirmed cases and not all of them were hospitalized.That seems like it would be manageable number for our health care system.Also throughout the state the numbers have slowly risen but certainly there have been many recoveries which are not reflected in the reporting.Recovery time is two weeks for mild cases and 3-6 weeks for those that are critical .
It looks like we should be gaining but the media seems to paint the bleakest picture that it can.

I don't pretend to know when we should go back, but today's NY Times is very clear that things are not as bleak as they could have been, and that we are gaining.

On the two points in your post about the virus--it's a lot easier to stop this thing when there are just a few cases (see the articles on the first wave in Singapore and Taiwan), and as the other commenter noted, I'd expect the NH peak to be some time after the Mass peak (now expected on April 20 or so).

All this probably bodes well for you to open before the Summer crowds. I really hope you can

Rich
04-11-2020, 09:31 AM
I also read in a NH governor's report that NH is about 2 to 4 weeks behind Boston, which is expected to be about 2 weeks behind NY.

Most of the news seems to be NY centric. So remember, we may still be building up.

Let's hope not and keep safe and home!

The Real BigGuy
04-11-2020, 03:11 PM
MA has been averaging +/- 100 deaths a day for about the last 5 days


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Not to Worry
04-11-2020, 05:51 PM
I don't pretend to know when we should go back, but today's NY Times is very clear that things are not as bleak as they could have been, and that we are gaining.

On the two points in your post about the virus--it's a lot easier to stop this thing when there are just a few cases (see the articles on the first wave in Singapore and Taiwan), and as the other commenter noted, I'd expect the NH peak to be some time after the Mass peak (now expected on April 20 or so).

All this probably bodes well for you to open before the Summer crowds. I really hope you can

To my mind this cannot end until there is a vaccine. My guess is that social distancing etc., is working and muting the deaths BUT as soon as we loosen up the curve goes straight up again and the shutdown starts again. I wish I was wrong but logically how can I be? Once more people interact and the virus spreads.

Of course if we do not get back to work, and small business can reopen we are all going to suffer too. I cannot find the answer.

From the Washington Post "The United States on Saturday has passed Italy for the most confirmed covid-19 deaths in the world, with more than 20,000 fatalities, a figure experts have called 'an underestimation.’
The news comes as Anthony S. Fauci, the nation’s leading infectious disease expert, said he hopes for “a real degree of normality” by November."

Major
04-11-2020, 07:32 PM
We need to resume to normalcy ASAP. This is no worse than a bad flu season. A complete overreaction!


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Not to Worry
04-12-2020, 08:00 AM
We need to resume to normalcy ASAP. This is no worse than a bad flu season. A complete overreaction!


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As the body count grows you are still holding your uninformed position? Your post makes we wonder if you are serious of just trolling...I think that later is more likely.

From Barrons "“We’re getting closer,” President Donald Trump said on Wednesday. “We’re getting much closer to getting our country back to the way it was.”

White House officials are reportedly pushing to begin reopening the country on May 1, though top officials, including Surgeon General
Jerome Adams, have said that the target remains unlikely for most of the U.S.

Opening the gates and telling the nation to go about its business as if Covid-19 were a mild flu is one option. A paper from academics at Harvard and Columbia universities, published by Harvard’s Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics, suggests that such an approach would kill two million people in the U.S. by the fall.

chachee52
04-12-2020, 08:08 AM
I've noticed that Belknap county as of Friday, has only 21 confirmed cases and not all of them were hospitalized. That seems like it would be manageable number for our health care system. Also throughout the state the numbers have slowly risen but certainly there have been many recoveries which are not reflected in the reporting. Recovery time is two weeks for mild cases and 3-6 weeks for those that are critical.
It looks like we should be gaining but the media seems to paint the bleakest picture that it can.

You should also take into account that NH numbers are also highly under reported due to not testing as many people due to lack of testing. We saw this in MA, when we did get the tests the numbers exploded. I work in NH and have a couple of people tell me they have some symptoms but couldn't get tested.
Just something to keep in mind

The Real BigGuy
04-12-2020, 08:18 AM
We need to resume to normalcy ASAP. This is no worse than a bad flu season. A complete overreaction!


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Not that long ago you were saying what’s the big deal, we didn’t over react like this when H1N1 hit in 2009. We’ll, H1N1 gave us (US) about 18,500 deaths in a little over a year and we are now CV-19 is over 20,000 in about 4 months. Is your next comparison going to be to the Black Plague?


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Major
04-12-2020, 08:34 AM
As the body count grows you are still holding your uninformed position? Your post makes we wonder if you are serious of just trolling...I think that later is more likely.

From Barrons "“We’re getting closer,” President Donald Trump said on Wednesday. “We’re getting much closer to getting our country back to the way it was.”

White House officials are reportedly pushing to begin reopening the country on May 1, though top officials, including Surgeon General
Jerome Adams, have said that the target remains unlikely for most of the U.S.

Opening the gates and telling the nation to go about its business as if Covid-19 were a mild flu is one option. A paper from academics at Harvard and Columbia universities, published by Harvard’s Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics, suggests that such an approach would kill two million people in the U.S. by the fall.

I'm not trolling at all. The models that caused us to shutter in place have been wrong. The Chinese coronavirus is nothing more than a bad flu year. In 2017-18, the U.S. suffered between 46,000 and 85,000 deaths from the flu with 500,000 hospitalized. The combined deaths from Chinese coronavirus and normal flu will fall within this range. What did we do in 2017-18? Nothing! This is a media- and social media-driven event. Yes, it is to be taken seriously, especially for people who have compromised immune systems, but we cannot shutter our economy and effect everyone.

We need to follow Sweden's model, and get all Americans back working. If you or someone you love is compromised, then be careful, while the rest of us get back to work.

Billy Bob
04-12-2020, 08:37 AM
As the body count grows you are still holding your uninformed position? Your post makes we wonder if you are serious of just trolling...I think that later is more likely.

From Barrons "“We’re getting closer,” President Donald Trump said on Wednesday. “We’re getting much closer to getting our country back to the way it was.”

White House officials are reportedly pushing to begin reopening the country on May 1, though top officials, including Surgeon General
Jerome Adams, have said that the target remains unlikely for most of the U.S.

Opening the gates and telling the nation to go about its business as if Covid-19 were a mild flu is one option. A paper from academics at Harvard and Columbia universities, published by Harvard’s Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics, suggests that such an approach would kill two million people in the U.S. by the fall.

Has to be a troll. You can’t be as uninformed and as rigid in your thinking as this guy pretends to be.

Seaplane Pilot
04-12-2020, 08:41 AM
Has to be a troll. You can’t be as uninformed and as rigid in your thinking as this guy pretends to be.

So just because Major (and many others) disagree with your position, that makes him a troll? Typical lame argument from the left. “We’re right, everyone else is wrong”. :rolleye1:

Not to Worry
04-12-2020, 09:01 AM
So just because Major (and many others) disagree with your position, that makes him a troll? Typical lame argument from the left. “We’re right, everyone else is wrong”. :rolleye1:

I do not believe anyone has ever said I am from the left. I try to deal in facts versus fiction. I think that just makes me informed versus right or left. Today too many define news that they do not like or agree with as fake. Very few of those people check into the story to find the hard core facts to back up their believes. Not sure what you would call a person who does this but maybe just uninformed. The world is facing a pandemic and people are dying. How many? Who knows since China and Russia are not telling the truth and even in the US our numbers are not accurate, since all agree that those who are infected are a much higher number than is reported.

People are dying and the ENTIRE worlds governments are responding (albeit too slow in the US) The experts all agree that if we reopen too soon more will die that do not need to die. This is simply a fact. There is nothing to argue. What that does to the economy I doubt we can accurately predict. I fear just like anyone with a brain, that we
would could end up in a depression but that is the price we will pay for China's arrogance in not dealing the virus when maybe it could have been contained.

Major
04-12-2020, 09:18 AM
I do not believe anyone has ever said I am from the left. I try to deal in facts versus fiction. I think that just makes me informed versus right or left. Today too many define news that they do not like or agree with as fake. Very few of those people check into the story to find the hard core facts to back up their believes. Not sure what you would call a person who does this but maybe just uninformed. The world is facing a pandemic and people are dying. How many? Who knows since China and Russia are not telling the truth and even in the US our numbers are not accurate, since all agree that those who are infected are a much higher number than is reported.

People are dying and the ENTIRE worlds governments are responding (albeit too slow in the US) The experts all agree that if we reopen too soon more will die that do not need to die. This is simply a fact. There is nothing to argue. What that does to the economy I doubt we can accurately predict. I fear just like anyone with a brain, that we
would could end up in a depression but that is the price we will pay for China's arrogance in not dealing the virus when maybe it could have been contained.


There’s a lot to argue. The numbers speak for themselves, and the earlier models on which we based our decisions were wrong.

There is a socio-economic impact to this. Like it or not, there is dignity in work. Most of our self esteem comes from doing well at our jobs. What we are experiencing now is the left’s dream - replacing the dignity of work with a government check.

I am disgusted by our response to this.


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WinnisquamZ
04-12-2020, 10:32 AM
I'm not trolling at all. The models that caused us to shutter in place have been wrong. The Chinese coronavirus is nothing more than a bad flu year. In 2017-18, the U.S. suffered between 46,000 and 85,000 deaths from the flu with 500,000 hospitalized. The combined deaths from Chinese coronavirus and normal flu will fall within this range. What did we do in 2017-18? Nothing! This is a media- and social media-driven event. Yes, it is to be taken seriously, especially for people who have compromised immune systems, but we cannot shutter our economy and effect everyone.



We need to follow Sweden's model, and get all Americans back working. If you or someone you love is compromised, then be careful, while the rest of us get back to work.



Major, many of us here agree with your take on this event. For me, patience is running thin. No time in history have we quarantined the healthy. Those at high risk should be the ones we protect under quarantine. I believe, this week plans will start to be identified that will allow us all to get back to living our life’s



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gillygirl
04-12-2020, 10:44 AM
There’s a lot to argue. The numbers speak for themselves, and the earlier models on which we based our decisions were wrong.

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Were the earlier models wrong, or are data used to initiate the models different now due to social distancing? How many runs do they perform, changing the initial conditions to determine what different inputs have on the outcome? Looks like I need to find those modeling websites.

I do agree that the economy needs to start running soon. Disagree that we should just turn the switch back on.



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thinkxingu
04-12-2020, 11:02 AM
Were the earlier models wrong, or are data used to initiate the models different now due to social distancing? How many runs do they perform, changing the initial conditions to determine what different inputs have on the outcome? Looks like I need to find those modeling websites.

I do agree that the economy needs to start running soon. Disagree that we should just turn the switch back on.



Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)Agreed with the two above. I think there's a balance to be found between mitigating risk and shutting the country down.

I was at Home Depot yesterday, and they seemed to strike the perfect balance: it's open but minimizing the number of people in the store and making sure people keep distance (floor markings) and employees are safe (gloves/masks/barriers).

I'm wondering if that works for restaurants and other businesses as well: every other table, cleaning supplies available, shortened hours to thoroughly clean overnight...

I'd be interested to know what the business owners on here think—I don't know that I've seen their opinions on their opinions for their businesses.

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JEEPONLY
04-12-2020, 12:42 PM
I'm not trolling at all. The models that caused us to shutter in place have been wrong. The Chinese coronavirus is nothing more than a bad flu year. In 2017-18, the U.S. suffered between 46,000 and 85,000 deaths from the flu with 500,000 hospitalized. The combined deaths from Chinese coronavirus and normal flu will fall within this range. What did we do in 2017-18? Nothing! This is a media- and social media-driven event. Yes, it is to be taken seriously, especially for people who have compromised immune systems, but we cannot shutter our economy and effect everyone.

We need to follow Sweden's model, and get all Americans back working. If you or someone you love is compromised, then be careful, while the rest of us get back to work.

If I'm hearing you correctly, many more people have died during "bad flu years" than will die during this pandemic.
So... maybe logic would dictate that every year we should practice social distancing, unless, of course, you want to accept a menial 46k-85k U.S. deaths per year!

My point?- No, don't just accept a death count- If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem!

chachee52
04-12-2020, 01:15 PM
So, here's another way of looking at the "numbers". I will be the first to tell everyone that I do NOT get the flu shot. The numbers for the flu are also skewed (not trying to start another debate on that). But the numbers for the flu are for an entire year, not 2-3 months. So to compare the numbers of the flu and Covid right now just can't be done . As others have said, opinions are opinions. As I am telling everyone the best strategy is to take the info that is given to us and come up with your own gut instinct that works best for you. But in doing so you have to respect someone else's gut instinct be cause right now, there is NOright answer!!

Flylady
04-12-2020, 02:31 PM
The modeling first presented show worse case scenario, no social distancing, then with social distancing at 50% compliance and this greater levels of compliance. The number of infected and deaths dropped substantially by the level of increased compliance.

The flue data is an annual number. If the worse case scenario (no nothing) projected 3000 deaths per day, that would be 180,000 in 2 months and would increase incrementality each month.

So the good news is with social distancing the numbers are averaging 1000 deaths per day. That is 60,000 in two months or 180,000 in 6 months.

I think it is much to early to state the models got it wrong. Also, as previously stated, China's numbers can not be trusted. In the U.S. people that have died in nursing homes or at home from Covid 19 or related causes are NOT being included in the numbers as of yet, although CDC has issued updated guidelines about death certificate completions.

TheProfessor
04-12-2020, 02:49 PM
Some folks get the complexity and enormity of this disease whilst others do not.

One analogy is the Black Death Plague of the Middle Ages. Scientifically, not the same. To some the consequences potentially could be similar.

This disease began in November 2019 in China. Identifying it and naming it came later.

Governor Sununu now has 30 Emergency Orders.
He has access to information from his own staff. The scientific community. Other governors. And the federal government.

VitaBene
04-12-2020, 02:57 PM
So... maybe logic would dictate that every year we should practice social distancing, unless, of course, you want to accept a menial 46k-85k U.S. deaths per year!


Yes, as long as you are OK with decimating the world economy. But the US will not have the money to spread around the globe doing good during a depression. Call me naive but I do believe we do more good than bad.

This is classic risk versus reward. We do it everyday. I know that it is way safer to sit in my garage typing this than it is to take an old motorcycle for a ride (which I will do when I hit send) or jump on a boat and head out on the lake to fish or go to an island home.

I'm not saying I disagree with what we did, I agree. I am also fortunate to be able to work from home, but usually would be in the field 40%. We need to restart our economy in a measured fashion.

gillygirl
04-12-2020, 03:22 PM
I'm wondering if that works for restaurants and other businesses as well: every other table, cleaning supplies available, shortened hours to thoroughly clean overnight...


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That’s how Florida started out with restaurants. 50% capacity. It worked great, but of course it’s hard to drink or eat through a mask.


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ApS
04-12-2020, 03:23 PM
Major, many of us here agree with your take on this event. For me, patience is running thin. No time in history have we quarantined the healthy. Those at high risk should be the ones we protect under quarantine. I believe, this week plans will start to be identified that will allow us all to get back to living our lives.


Professor Knut Wittowski, epidemiologist, says "Get the kids in school now".

https://www.nujournal.com/opinion/letters/2020/04/11/sheeple-and-shepherds/

AB_Monterey
04-12-2020, 10:19 PM
We need to resume to normalcy ASAP. This is no worse than a bad flu season. A complete overreaction!


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No, it's not.

iw8surf
04-13-2020, 07:12 AM
Someone said this wont stop until we get a vaccine.... Well we cant even get people to give their kids "required" vaccines for school you think we will be able to the entire world to get a vaccine? Nope

ApS
04-13-2020, 07:42 AM
We need to resume to normalcy ASAP. This is no worse than a bad flu season. A complete overreaction
Found on the Internet this morning, , and thought member Major would agree:

"Open the damned economy. If you're old and frail, keep on socially distancing yourself, but you don't get to dictate the loss of livelihoods to the rest of the citizenry, nor burden the rest of us with fascism".

Bear Islander
04-13-2020, 08:30 AM
So it seems the argument is that the shut down is an over reaction.

These people have it wrong

President Trump
The Governor of New Hampshire
CDC
All Democratic Leaders
Almost all Republican leaders
All the doctors, nurses and health care professionals

However a handful of people on this forum have it right???

If you want me to take you even a little bit seriously, point me to some medical doctors that agree with your position.

Not to Worry
04-13-2020, 08:39 AM
Sure open things up. Let the death toll mount and then we all get to see what the USA would like if the virus spread unfettered. What is happening at Smithfield Foods is simply a "taste" of what would happen if we fully reopen.

From Time. "The world’s biggest pork producer is shuttering a major U.S. plant indefinitely after a coronavirus outbreak among employees, with the company warning that closures across the country are taking American meat supplies “perilously close to the edge” of shortfalls.

Smithfield Foods will idle its Sioux Falls, South Dakota, pork-processing facility, which accounts for 4% to 5% of U.S. production, the company said in a statement Sunday. The move comes after state officials reported more than 200 cases of Covid-19 for plant employees, adding to a spike in infections that’s seen hundreds of American meat workers get sick. Plants have been forced to shutter or reduce output.

“The closure of this facility, combined with a growing list of other protein plants that have shuttered across our industry, is pushing our country perilously close to the edge in terms of our meat supply,” Smithfield’s Chief Executive Officer Ken Sullivan said in the statement. “It is impossible to keep our grocery stores stocked if our plants are not running.”

If people cannot understand and extrapolate from what is happening at Smithfield Foods when they opine this is just a bad flu then they are simply ignorant of the facts. This is not a political debate, COVID-19 is an exestential threat that as of today cannot be stopped. Efforts to contain it are working and buying the doctors and scientists of the world time to work on treatment and a vaccine.

Newbiesaukee
04-13-2020, 08:54 AM
Someone said this wont stop until we get a vaccine.... Well we cant even get people to give their kids "required" vaccines for school you think we will be able to the entire world to get a vaccine? Nope

Although I understand what you are saying, it is not quite accurate.

We know that no vaccine prevents any disease 100%. Not everyone will get vaccinated. However, the idea is if a percentage of the population is immune, it greatly lowers the chance of the virus spreading. The higher the percentage vaccinated, the less the risk of spread.

Philosophically, it will be interesting to see the priorities established in who gets vaccinated first....the most susceptible ( such as the elderly ) or those of future generations ( the young who seem to be less susceptible or less likely to die)? Or, those deemed most valuable to society....health care workers, truck drivers, etc? Not trying to start another argument just too much time to think.

Paugus Bay Resident
04-13-2020, 09:07 AM
My wife and I we're watching the 10 Commandments over the weekend. Charlton Heston (as Moses) made a somewhat timely speech, "The strong produce many, the weak produce few and the dead produce nothing."

Agree that the economy needs to be cranked up, just not smart enough to figure out how.

FlyingScot
04-13-2020, 09:35 AM
Someone said this wont stop until we get a vaccine.... Well we cant even get people to give their kids "required" vaccines for school you think we will be able to the entire world to get a vaccine? Nope

The people who don't get their kids vaccinated are very small extraordinarily gullible groups (spread across the political and socio-economic spectrum). A dim witted Hollywood actor or cult-like religious leader reads something from an internet quack, and then persuades his neighbors. These neighbors, like all young parents, are terrified of anything that hints at danger for their babies, so they vulnerable. The reason it gets press is that our herd immunity starts for fail when we fall below 90% compliance.

Also keep in mind that with covid, we are coming from the other direction in terms of the problem--we are not fighting to eradicate something very rare, such as measles or mumps; we are fighting to slow the spread of something rampant. So a vaccine that has a relatively low compliance rate will still help a lot.

ApS
04-13-2020, 10:30 AM
So it seems the argument is that the shut down is an over reaction.

These people have it wrong

President Trump
The Governor of New Hampshire
CDC
All Democratic Leaders
Almost all Republican leaders
All the doctors, nurses and health care professionals

However a handful of people on this forum have it right???

If you want me to take you even a little bit seriously, point me to some medical doctors that agree with your position.

This MD?

"Most economies, including that of the US, can’t survive the strong lockdown medicine for a whole year. Let’s use data from serology tests to get a full picture of the iceberg, craft policies that protect the elderly and avoid an economic catastrophe that will negatively impact public health for years."

Ariel Pablos-Mendez, M.D., MPH
(US Agency for International Development (USAID)
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2020/april/10/more-herd-immunity-less-herd-mentality/

Newbiesaukee
04-13-2020, 10:54 AM
This MD?

"Most economies, including that of the US, can’t survive the strong lockdown medicine for a whole year. Let’s use data from serology tests to get a full picture of the iceberg, craft policies that protect the elderly and avoid an economic catastrophe that will negatively impact public health for years."

Ariel Pablos-Mendez, M.D., MPH
(US Agency for International Development (USAID)
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2020/april/10/more-herd-immunity-less-herd-mentality/

Ignoring that the Ronpaul institute is not exactly nonpartisan, the quote itself from Dr. Pablos-Mendez seems perfectly reasonable. The problem is that the serology tests,let alone the PCR tests for the virus, are not yet widely enough used to be able to get valid data to reach any realistic decisions about when to open up the economy.

Bear Islander
04-13-2020, 11:04 AM
This MD?

"Most economies, including that of the US, can’t survive the strong lockdown medicine for a whole year. Let’s use data from serology tests to get a full picture of the iceberg, craft policies that protect the elderly and avoid an economic catastrophe that will negatively impact public health for years."

Ariel Pablos-Mendez, M.D., MPH
(US Agency for International Development (USAID)
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2020/april/10/more-herd-immunity-less-herd-mentality/

This doctor is NOT in agreement with your position. His position is that lockdown for a whole year would be catastrophic. I think we all agree with that. Here is another quote from the same article.

"We either save lives by going on total lockdown or we go back to business as usual and sacrifice the lives of those most at risk."

AB_Monterey
04-13-2020, 05:44 PM
When someone tells you they want to open the economy now, just ask them what their number of acceptable deaths are. Just give is a number.

Go from there.

Garcia
04-13-2020, 06:13 PM
I hear open the economy a lot. Just curious - what do people mean? Reopen all the schools, bars, restaurants, businesses, etc. on some predetermined day, say May 4? Is there a more gradual plan? Do we leave decisions up to individual business owners, school systems, and people to do as they please or is the government, federal, state, or local, in charge of setting parameters in place?

I'm curious to hear some concrete, tangible ideas, from just declare it a hoax and move on to clamp down even more until there are no more cases.

Pineedles
04-13-2020, 06:47 PM
I am not a WWll vet, but try and see this from the point of view of General Eisenhower commanding his troops to take a hill, bunker,or the beaches of Normandy. The experts give him the number of expected casualties and he weighs the benefits of his action and he gives the go ahead. Trump must weigh the advice of his experts and make a decision. He wants to limit the casualties but he must win this war!


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WinnisquamZ
04-13-2020, 07:02 PM
I am not a WWll vet, but try and see this from the point of view of General Eisenhower commanding his troops to take a hill, bunker,or the beaches of Normandy. The experts give him the number of expected casualties and he weighs the benefits of his action and he gives the go ahead. Trump must weigh the advice of his experts and make a decision. He wants to limit the casualties but he must win this war!


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Well said Pineedles. It will be his “moment”


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kawishiwi
04-13-2020, 11:29 PM
So just because Major (and many others) disagree with your position, that makes him a troll? Typical lame argument from the left. “We’re right, everyone else is wrong”. :rolleye1:

Actually, "We're right, everyone else is wrong" could be YOUR username.

Seaplane Pilot
04-14-2020, 03:44 AM
Actually, "We're right, everyone else is wrong" could be YOUR username.

I didn’t see comedians on the Governor’s list of essential businesses. Please go back to “cowering in place”. CNN is calling.

gravy boat
04-14-2020, 08:06 AM
When someone tells you they want to open the economy now, just ask them what their number of acceptable deaths are. Just give is a number.

Go from there.

Other side of the coin and a question for YOU: What is the acceptable number of US Citizens who lose their livelihood and cannot house, cloth or feed themselves or their family? What is the acceptable number - or percentage - of mortgage defaults for you? " Just give us a number. Go from there."

We are sole proprietors and our business - and income - has come to a standstill. I am not retired with known monthly income. I don't live off of the profits of selling a business. I don't live off of a trust fund. What I do rely on is companies hiring employees as we are recruiters and we get paid only when we place someone with a company.

It seems you have no problem with millions of people like me - or those worse off - losing most if not everything. You feel it's okay that I lose my business, my house, my Toyota Highlander and have to surrender my two dogs and two cats because I have no home?

Not trying to be "sassy" - well, okay, maybe a little - but I am weary of the "let's force the majority of 328 million US citizens to sacrifice everything to save thousands." Do I want anybody to die? Obviously not. But there comes a time when life goes on and risks must be accepted - and those forced to sacrifice refuse to accept it any longer. And that time will be here before you know it.


GB

Garcia
04-14-2020, 08:16 AM
Other side of the coin and a question for YOU: What is the acceptable number of US Citizens who lose their livelihood and cannot house, cloth or feed themselves or their family? What is the acceptable number - or percentage - of mortgage defaults for you? " Just give us a number. Go from there."

We are sole proprietors and our business - and income - has come to a standstill. I am not retired with known monthly income. I don't live off of the profits of selling a business. I don't live off of a trust fund. What I do rely on is companies hiring employees as we are recruiters and we get paid only when we place someone with a company.

It seems you have no problem with millions of people like me - or those worse off - losing most if not everything. You feel it's okay that I lose my business, my house, my Toyota Highlander and have to surrender my two dogs and two cats because I have no home?

Not trying to be "sassy" - well, okay, maybe a little - but I am weary of the "let's force the majority of 328 million US citizens to sacrifice everything to save thousands." Do I want anybody to die? Obviously not. But there comes a time when life goes on and risks must be accepted - and those forced to sacrifice refuse to accept it any longer. And that time will be here before you know it.


GB

Thanks! My question is how do you envision things opening back up? Do schools open but require all to wear masks? Do businesses simply open back up or must they limit the number of customers? I am really curious as to what people think is the way things should, or should not, reopen.

thinkxingu
04-14-2020, 09:17 AM
Thanks! My question is how do you envision things opening back up? Do schools open but require all to wear masks? Do businesses simply open back up or must they limit the number of customers? I am really curious as to what people think is the way things should, or should not, reopen.I envision things opening up based on concentration levels—space and numbers. So, restaurants and shops with capacity limits, etc. I don't see schools opening for a bit just given the numbers of people in the space.

I agree with above, though, that at some point we need to figure out a solution—not just for the economy, but for America's mental and social health.

I'm incredibly interested in seeing how this changes the American way of life. Are we done shaking hands as a greeting?!

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Seaplane Pilot
04-14-2020, 09:30 AM
Other side of the coin and a question for YOU: What is the acceptable number of US Citizens who lose their livelihood and cannot house, cloth or feed themselves or their family? What is the acceptable number - or percentage - of mortgage defaults for you? " Just give us a number. Go from there."

We are sole proprietors and our business - and income - has come to a standstill. I am not retired with known monthly income. I don't live off of the profits of selling a business. I don't live off of a trust fund. What I do rely on is companies hiring employees as we are recruiters and we get paid only when we place someone with a company.

It seems you have no problem with millions of people like me - or those worse off - losing most if not everything. You feel it's okay that I lose my business, my house, my Toyota Highlander and have to surrender my two dogs and two cats because I have no home?

Not trying to be "sassy" - well, okay, maybe a little - but I am weary of the "let's force the majority of 328 million US citizens to sacrifice everything to save thousands." Do I want anybody to die? Obviously not. But there comes a time when life goes on and risks must be accepted - and those forced to sacrifice refuse to accept it any longer. And that time will be here before you know it.


GB

I just heard a statistic on the radio by a member of the President's economic team: (paraphrasing) "For every 1,000,000 that go on unemployment, 17,000 people will die from alcoholism, drug overdoes, suicide, etc."

So at the rate we're going, 10mm unemployed will result in 170,000 deaths. Far worse than deaths from the virus. Wake up America.

I heard the Star Spangled Banner being played this morning as well. I've heard this countless times before, but the last line hit me today more than it ever has: "O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!"

Right now it appears we are neither free or brave. Sad....

gravy boat
04-14-2020, 09:42 AM
Thanks! My question is how do you envision things opening back up? Do schools open but require all to wear masks? Do businesses simply open back up or must they limit the number of customers? I am really curious as to what people think is the way things should, or should not, reopen.

That is going to be the challenge for sure. For the rest of this year I hear schools are doing remote, which makes sense. And when restaurants open should they start with limited hours and/or number allowed at one time for 2 weeks, then more allowed for the next 2 weeks and then full capacity at week 4? Wish I had the answers.

GB

4 for Boating
04-14-2020, 10:02 AM
Well everyone knows the ground rules now - keep your distance / wash your hands / wear a mask...

Seems to be working for places like Lowes / Walmart / Cumberland Farms/Mobile / Dunkin / Hardware stores / Liquor Stores... At some point this is going to have to be put into the hands of the public and small businesses to control and be smart about how they conduct themselves.

School-wise > I would not be surprised if they never go back this year as it's starting to get near the end of the school year as it is.

ApS
04-14-2020, 10:18 AM
This doctor is NOT in agreement with your position. His position is that lockdown for a whole year would be catastrophic. I think we all agree with that. Here is another quote from the same article. "We either save lives by going on total lockdown or we go back to business as usual and sacrifice the lives of those most at risk."
I don't think I've actually stated my position; but you'll find me in favor of "herd immunity". National recovery starts with an 80% exposure, and that begins with the children.

What Massachusetts is doing is the exact opposite of what is needed! Did US media Panic drive their reaction?

Put K-12 back in school--now. The reason? They're that one third of the population that needs immunity by acquiring the disease. By far, they're also most likely to survive the COVID-19 flu. Remember the "German Measles" parties?

The workforce is composed of the people who drive this necessary economy and will need to shoulder this flu, just as they did in annual flus of the past.

The most endangered are those 65 and older; worse, if they have typical "co-morbidities".

They're the people who must stay in, must wash hands, and must not socialize.

Yesterday, I broke my isolation: Traffic was surprisingly busy. :eek2: With only one exception, everyone was wearing masks, including all employees.

While not the best solution, I'd found a painters mask, glued a new elastic to it, and "looked the part". Pharmacies are out of antiseptics and masks. Groceries still stock no paper products.

Thinking about it later, replacement elastics could be cut from clothing to keep "outdated" masks in use.

In accord with the Florida governor's direction, a sign was posted at the grocery store saying, no one will check out without proof of residency. That, I noticed, had nobody to enforce it. This isn't the "disciplined" Japan or Germany, so they're not asking for "your papers" yet.

The formerly acceptable yellow hurricane-return window-stickers, needed to enter the county after Hurricane Irma, were discovered to be mostly forged! :eek:

New York, which "cooked their books", should wait, but expect communities to open up one-by-one. Texas and Louisiana have already started.

FlyingScot
04-14-2020, 10:40 AM
I don't think I've actually stated my position; but you'll find me in favor of "herd immunity".

This of course is exactly the opposite of what every expert recommends--the premise of herd immunity is that we STEEPEN the curve. I'm pretty sure Boris Johnson also thought this was a good idea...

gillygirl
04-14-2020, 12:01 PM
I don't think I've actually stated my position; but you'll find me in favor of "herd immunity".


In accord with the Florida governor's direction, a sign was posted at the grocery store saying, no one will check out without proof of residency. That, I noticed, had nobody to enforce it. This isn't the "disciplined" Japan or Germany, so they're not asking for "your papers" yet.







Sweden is going with the “herd immunity” option. Their death rate is 9%, globally it’s 6%, and FL and NH are 2.5% and 2%, respectively. Who’s doing it right here?

Please provide the number of the executive order that DeSantis allegedly signed with regards to proof of residency. I’ve been unable to find it.


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VitaBene
04-14-2020, 12:26 PM
Sweden is going with the “herd immunity” option. Their death rate is 9%, globally it’s 6%, and FL and NH are 2.5% and 2%, respectively. Who’s doing it right here?

Please provide the number of the executive order that DeSantis allegedly signed with regards to proof of residency. I’ve been unable to find it.


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We have zero (0) clue about infection rates in any country. Trying to figure out percentages of anything when a minuscule sample has been tested is meaningless. We won't know who was "right" for years.

Flylady
04-14-2020, 12:28 PM
I don't think I've actually stated my position; but you'll find me in favor of "herd immunity". National recovery starts with an 80% exposure, and that begins with the children.

What Massachusetts is doing is the exact opposite of what is needed! Did US media Panic drive their reaction?

Put K-12 back in school--now. The reason? They're that one third of the population that needs immunity by acquiring the disease. By far, they're also most likely to survive the COVID-19 flu. Remember the "German Measles" parties?

The workforce is composed of the people who drive this necessary economy and will need to shoulder this flu, just as they did in annual flus of the past.

The most endangered are those 65 and older; worse, if they have typical "co-morbidities".

They're the people who must stay in, must wash hands, and must not socialize.

Yesterday, I broke my isolation: Traffic was surprisingly busy. :eek2: With only one exception, everyone was wearing masks, including all employees.

While not the best solution, I'd found a painters mask, glued a new elastic to it, and "looked the part". Pharmacies are out of antiseptics and masks. Groceries still stock no paper products.

Thinking about it later, replacement elastics could be cut from clothing to keep "outdated" masks in use.

In accord with the Florida governor's direction, a sign was posted at the grocery store saying, no one will check out without proof of residency. That, I noticed, had nobody to enforce it. This isn't the "disciplined" Japan or Germany, so they're not asking for "your papers" yet.

The formerly acceptable yellow hurricane-return window-stickers, needed to enter the county after Hurricane Irma, were discovered to be mostly forged! :eek:

New York, which "cooked their books", should wait, but expect communities to open up one-by-one. Texas and Louisiana have already started.

So your assumption that children get immunity because they are young and less likely to die from it I guess also includes that the same children bring it home to their parents and or grandparents? Unfortunately too many adults in this country including FL. have one or more underlying conditions that put them at higher risk. Thus why the herd immunity concept would never work in the U.S.

Mr. V
04-14-2020, 12:45 PM
Think of the pandemic as placing the USA onto a "wartime footing," where decisions are made to help ensure its citizens' survival above all else.

Yeah, our current response to the virus has temporarily hurt the economy but it is saving a heck of a lot of lives, lives whose value I believe eclipses 401-k growth.

We need to be selfless, not selfish, in these difficult times.

gillygirl
04-14-2020, 01:37 PM
We have zero (0) clue about infection rates in any country. Trying to figure out percentages of anything when a minuscule sample has been tested is meaningless. We won't know who was "right" for years.



Unfortunately, I think the testing sample will always be small in most places.


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MAXUM
04-14-2020, 02:31 PM
So your assumption that children get immunity because they are young and less likely to die from it I guess also includes that the same children bring it home to their parents and or grandparents? Unfortunately too many adults in this country including FL. have one or more underlying conditions that put them at higher risk. Thus why the herd immunity concept would never work in the U.S.

Actually a lot of kids these days are just as unhealthy - obesity and vaping are identified as possible significant risk factors. Both are widespread amongst the youth of this country.

ishoot308
04-14-2020, 02:54 PM
Actually a lot of kids these days are just as unhealthy - obesity and vaping are identified as possible significant risk factors. Both are widespread amongst the youth of this country.

You forgot video games....

Dan

WinnisquamZ
04-14-2020, 04:22 PM
Today, shopped at Shaw’s in Gilford for the first time in three weeks. Half in masks (yes, wife and I wore them) most employees had them. But, the two young ladies bagging did not! One way aisle rules clearly marked and no one cared or was it enforced. Here, in the lakes region we just don’t care or fed up. Lowe’s was crowded. Not sure where we go from here, but starting to believe this will be a difficult summer season for those in the hospitality business


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ApS
04-15-2020, 08:16 AM
Sweden is going with the “herd immunity” option. Their death rate is 9%, globally it’s 6%, and FL and NH are 2.5% and 2%, respectively. Who’s doing it right here?
Sweden never stopped their children from attending school. Denmark did, and their children start next week.

So, I guess we'll find out; that is, depending on how they've recorded their stats.

Sweden takes exceptional care of their seniors, with "welfare-checking" a frequent and automatic function; oftentimes, cared-for in individual home units.

"Closed Swedish cities", as Malmö is becoming, will skew results.

Please provide the number of the executive order that DeSantis allegedly signed with regards to proof of residency. I’ve been unable to find it.
I won't be back at that sign for awhile, :rolleye2: but maybe have located something helpful:

Executive Order 20-91 (1).pdf

:look:

jmk
04-15-2020, 09:20 AM
I feel like a fact has been left out regarding the flu comparison. Even if COVID deaths stopped today in NYC, one in a thousand people living in the city have died. NYC has the densest population so it has the most difficultly slowing the spread, simulating what would happen elsewhere with no social distancing. One in a thousand across the US is 350,000 people, much more than a bad flu season. And of course deaths in NYC continue at a strong pace so that number could easily be a million. Not like the flu, not even close.

On another topic, every infected person is a potential breeder of mutations. We have to develop annual flu vaccines because it mutates. The same will happen with the coronavirus. We need to invent tools specific to this virus to be in a position to develop annual vaccines. We will be much better prepared in the future, but we are unprepared this first year. We need to keep the infection numbers down not just to save lives but to decrease the chance of potentially more deadly mutations occurring before we are equipped to respond.


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gillygirl
04-15-2020, 09:51 PM
I won't be back at that sign for awhile, :rolleye2: but maybe have located something helpful:

Executive Order 20-91 (1).pdf

:look:

Nothing in there about requiring IDs. Try fact checking before you post this type of stuff. Or take a picture as proof of what you saw, because, as a result of your posting history, I think you made it up.


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ApS
04-15-2020, 10:56 PM
Newbiesaukee—
Ignoring that the Ronpaul institute is not exactly nonpartisan, the quote itself from Dr. Pablos-Mendez seems perfectly reasonable. The problem is that the serology tests, let alone the PCR tests for the virus, are not yet widely enough used to be able to get valid data to reach any realistic decisions about when to open up the economy. Ron Paul is equally objectionable to left or right. ;)
Emirates Airlines seems to have useful serology. Will Emirates Airlines be issuing "Immunity Passes" to play doubles-tennis in Michigan?

Nothing in there about requiring IDs. Try fact checking before you post this type of stuff. Or take a picture as proof of what you saw, because, as a result of your posting history, I think you made it up.
Actually, an ID showing residency is required to enter this County. Familiar, prominent (but fraudulent) IDs were uncovered, and you can slip-by Deputies by using a boat. :rolleye2:

So...I go by today, and the paper sign I saw yesterday is gone, and a plastic sign—posted more prominently—has a shorter message, consistent with even Michigan's restrictive regulations:

gillygirl
04-16-2020, 08:51 AM
What county are you in?

That sign says nothing about IDs. Many stores have this policy, even if not mandated by local authorities.


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ApS
04-16-2020, 02:51 PM
What county are you in?

That sign says nothing about IDs. Many stores have this policy, even if not mandated by local authorities.
Not Valley County:


“Anyone who is from out of town or out of Valley County, staying here/working here, and has not completed the 14-day quarantine is REQUIRED BY THE VALLEY COUNTY HEALTH OFFICER ORDER to use curbside delivery only,” the flyer from the Valley County Health Department stated. “They are not to enter your business to shop.”

“Anyone who is from out of town or out of Valley County who has a PINK wristband has been here 14 days or more and no longer needs to do the strict self-quarantine. They may enter your business."

gillygirl
04-16-2020, 04:24 PM
That’s not even in Florida. Have a nice day.


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ApS
04-16-2020, 08:49 PM
That’s not even in Florida. Have a nice day
The really curious would Google some key words.

Nothing in there about requiring IDs. Try fact checking before you post this type of stuff. Or take a picture as proof of what you saw, because, as a result of your posting history, I think you made it up.

Well, I do have to make a correction about Sweden's elderly. :o

To be extra-sure, I'll take a look through this computer's history, but I read yesterday that for COVID-19, Sweden won't use extra care (like ventilators) if you're over 80.

You're done... :(

Sweden's seniors aren't having a nice day.

Found it... :)

EDIT:

To make matters even worse, late last month, Dr. Thomas Lindén, of the National Board of Health and Welfare, said that hospitals could and would likely give priority to illegal migrants over elderly Swedes infected with the coronavirus.
https://activistmommy.com/sweden-will-not-prioritize-elderly-coronavirus-patients-for-icu/

AC2717
04-17-2020, 08:49 AM
coming out today the washington model (which US was using and included social distancing) will again for the 4th or 5th time be reduced drastically.

less than 150 people on the Naval ship Comfort, and 1/10 of the ventilators "needed" are being used

gravy boat
04-17-2020, 01:30 PM
34 COVID deaths in NH for 2019/2020 to date
Source: The COVID Tracking Project. Last updated Apr 16, 2020, 3:40 PM
https://www.nh.gov/covid19/index.htm confirms NH Numbers

31 flu deaths in NH for 2019/2020 to date
Source: WMUR/State of NH (4/17/2020)

ApS
04-17-2020, 09:56 PM
Covid-19 checkpoints targeting out-of-state residents draw complaints and legal scrutiny:

Dare County Emergency Management has set up roadblocks at all entry points to the county in North Carolina’s Outer Banks. Drivers must stop and present proof of local residency or other acceptable identification to gain entry. (Daniel Pullen/for The Washington Post)

While the efforts initially targeted residents of New York, which has the most coronavirus cases, they quickly expanded. At local checkpoints for people entering North Carolina’s Outer Banks, police ask motorists for ID. Only those with a local address or proof of residency, such as a special resident permit or utility bill, are allowed to proceed.

Same for one South Florida County, previously noted:

Actually, an ID showing residency is required to enter the County. Familiar, prominent (but fraudulent) IDs were uncovered, and you can slip-by Deputies by using a boat. :rolleye2:



"Not only that, checkpoints are also seeing people who are making changes to their mailing addresses and driver’s license address just days before their attempt to get through. And it’s opened up a new problem and a new investigation within the county Tax Collector’s Office".

Of course, there's Miami's Fisher Island, the most expensive real estate in one ZIP code. They've bought serological test kits for everyone on the island. :eek2:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/everyone-in-this-wealthy-island-community-is-being-tested-for-coronavirus-antibodies/ar-BB12D2Sw

https://www.miamicondoinvestments.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/fisher-island-condos-florida-4.jpg

SAMIAM
04-18-2020, 06:06 AM
Until COVID-19 came into th news, opioid deaths were the number one concern
and now there is no mention of the problem anywhere.Addicts don't stop using and I'm sure many are still dying so what's up?

ApS
04-18-2020, 06:49 AM
New Hampshire's addicts are loaded with co-morbidities, so their deaths will be conveniently lumped-in with Wuhan-virus deaths. Fentanyl and carbfentanyl--also made in China--are brought in with Heroin from Lawrence, MA to fuel NH's addicts.

Also from Lawrence, meth produced by Sinaloa cartels in Mexico is purchased by NH cars circling parks in Methuen, Lawrence, and Haverill.

Infant and child in "lab":

https://www.eagletribune.com/news/haverhill/police-meth-lab-found/article_35ccb0b1-73ca-5479-a867-60ad6914a881.html


Ann Coulter is non-PC, and has something to say about China + race, and the Times' insufficient reports on it, with a timeline of Chinese "insults" against the American economy:
http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2020-03-18.html

FlyingScot
04-18-2020, 10:10 AM
Until COVID-19 came into th news, opioid deaths were the number one concern
and now there is no mention of the problem anywhere.Addicts don't stop using and I'm sure many are still dying so what's up?

Great point/question. The media typically goes all in on one story at a time. In this particular case, I would guess it's because those of us who are not addicts or related to addicts believe that we have nothing to fear from opioids (at least today or next week). But covid is at the door right now, waiting for us to let it in...

TheRoBoat
04-18-2020, 10:39 AM
Recent article from Union Leader

https://www.unionleader.com/news/health/coronavirus/drop-in-local-overdose-numbers-concerns-health-officials/article_9726e3b3-3497-5744-88c4-253441780b94.html

SAMIAM
04-18-2020, 11:12 AM
New Hampshire's addicts are loaded with co-morbidities, so their deaths will be conveniently lumped-in with Wuhan-virus deaths. Fentanyl and carbfentanyl--also made in China--are brought in with Heroin from Lawrence, MA to fuel NH's addicts.

Also from Lawrence, meth produced by Sinaloa cartels in Mexico is purchased by NH cars circling parks in Methuen, Lawrence, and Haverill.

Infant and child in "lab":

https://www.eagletribune.com/news/haverhill/police-meth-lab-found/article_35ccb0b1-73ca-5479-a867-60ad6914a881.html


Ann Coulter is non-PC, and has something to say about China + race, and the Times' insufficient reports on it, with a timeline of Chinese "insults" against the American economy:
http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2020-03-18.html

Interesting article by Ann Coulter and she's right

thinkxingu
04-18-2020, 11:50 AM
Everybody hates China...while watching Chinese TVs, posting on Winni Forum using Chinese smartphones, wearing Chinese clothes...

This is a two-way street: corporations sent jobs to China to increase profits, Americans ate it up to save money.

At this point, how many Americans can afford to buy American? Walmart exists for a reason.

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Winilyme
04-18-2020, 12:24 PM
Everybody hates China...while watching Chinese TVs, posting on Winni Forum using Chinese smartphones, wearing Chinese clothes...

This is a two-way street: corporations sent jobs to China to increase profits, Americans ate it up to save money.

At this point, how many Americans can afford to buy American? Walmart exists for a reason.

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FLL's going to love you Think.

JEEPONLY
04-18-2020, 01:56 PM
Interesting article by Ann Coulter and she's right

Amid all the China bashing, I don't get this sentence:

A few weeks ago -- before a trillion dollars in wealth was destroyed by the coronavirus panic and we learned the real disease was racism -- everyone, including the Times, admitted that the virus was brought to Italy by two Chinese tourists.

JEEPONLY
04-18-2020, 02:48 PM
Everybody hates China...while watching Chinese TVs, posting on Winni Forum using Chinese smartphones, wearing Chinese clothes...

This is a two-way street: corporations sent jobs to China to increase profits, Americans ate it up to save money.

At this point, how many Americans can afford to buy American? Walmart exists for a reason.

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Sold everywhere?

gillygirl
04-18-2020, 08:00 PM
Interesting article by Ann Coulter and she's rightWell, not totally. H1N1 has been tracked back to Mexico.

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SAMIAM
04-20-2020, 12:48 PM
As I understand it LRGH is closed to anything other than emergency and COVID-19 patients. It seems a shame that they are not doing any elective surgery since some of those operations are badly needed.
In many cases a person with mild Corona Virus symptoms is told to recover at home.
Does anyone know how many COVID-19 patients are now hospitalized?

TheRoBoat
04-20-2020, 01:02 PM
Most recent State numbers are here:

https://www.nh.gov/covid19/