Wow trail

[joey2665]

City is spending 40k for a feasibility study on the extension of the trail.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/city-selects-wow-trail-consultant/article_a8397782-f81e-11e8-a344-cb8315ddb3db.html



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[Major]

City is spending 40k for a feasibility study on the extension of the trail.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/city-selects-wow-trail-consultant/article_a8397782-f81e-11e8-a344-cb8315ddb3db.html



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Yet another lie from our City Council to the taxpayers of Laconia. We were told that they would spend $10K, and that the WOW Trail organization would cover it. Disappointing.

The good news is that the WOW Trail extension to Meredith seems impossible based on the financial and non-financial obstacles.

[TheVoiceOfReason]

The good news is that the WOW Trail extension to Meredith seems impossible based on the financial and non-financial obstacles.

Forgive my ignorance, but why would this be considered good news?

[joey2665]

Forgive my ignorance, but why would this be considered good news?



I guessing Major is against extending the trail


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[Major]

Forgive my ignorance, but why would this be considered good news?

1. Waste of taxpayer money for construction and maintenance, especially given its limited use.
2. Bad for the environment, especially during construction.
3. Impinges on the rights of landowners along the trail.
4. If the organizers get their wish, it will eliminate a profitable rail car enterprise.
5. Will create an unsightly fence all along Paugus Bay.
6. It's a continuance of an avenue of egress for criminals who inhabit the present trail.
7. The WOW Trail is merely a feel good endeavor for Laconia elites.

I'm sure I forgot some. Jetskiier can fill in the gaps!

[TheVoiceOfReason]

1. Waste of taxpayer money for construction and maintenance, especially given its limited use.
2. Bad for the environment, especially during construction.
3. Impinges on the rights of landowners along the trail.
4. If the organizers get their wish, it will eliminate a profitable rail car enterprise.
5. Will create an unsightly fence all along Paugus Bay.
6. It's a continuance of an avenue of egress for criminals who inhabit the present trail.
7. The WOW Trail is merely a feel good endeavor for Laconia elites.

I'm sure I forgot some. Jetskiier can fill in the gaps!

Thank you for clarifying your position. To be clear, I haven't formed an opinion on the trail one way or the other, but I'm a year-round Meredith resident so found your original comment interesting. A rebuttal to your 7 points from a "devil's-advocate" standpoint.

1. That's what the study is for, to determine if it's worth the investment. I grant you that one could argue that 40K for the study is waste enough.
2. No worse than any other construction, so should we just avoid improving any infrastructure? In today's society, DES would ensure that the environmental impacts would be minimal.
3. I'm not going to address this one. This forum has seen too much back and forth regarding whether the WOW trail is impinging on the rights of abutting landowners. I understand both sides and each person needs to make their own judgement.
4. There's no reason the two can't co-exist.
5. What's unsightly to some may be aesthetically pleasing to someone else. I haven't seen the fence design and have not even seen confirmation that a fence the full length of the trail would be required. There are already many unsightly things along Paugus Bay, a fence would be the least of our worries.
6. This is unfounded and amounts to fear-mongering IMO.
7. I know many good people on both sides of the issue. They are spread up and down the socioeconomic spectrum. Some would counter that it is a few "Laconia Elites" in a certain gated community that are the project's biggest objectors, so declaring the WOW Trail a movement propelled by "Laconia Elites" really isn't accurate.

Again, I very much respect your position on the issue, just merely playing devil's advocate.

[Major]

Thank you for clarifying your position. To be clear, I haven't formed an opinion on the trail one way or the other, but I'm a year-round Meredith resident so found your original comment interesting. A rebuttal to your 7 points from a "devil's-advocate" standpoint.

1. That's what the study is for, to determine if it's worth the investment. I grant you that one could argue that 40K for the study is waste enough.
2. No worse than any other construction, so should we just avoid improving any infrastructure? In today's society, DES would ensure that the environmental impacts would be minimal.
3. I'm not going to address this one. This forum has seen too much back and forth regarding whether the WOW trail is impinging on the rights of abutting landowners. I understand both sides and each person needs to make their own judgement.
4. There's no reason the two can't co-exist.
5. What's unsightly to some may be aesthetically pleasing to someone else. I haven't seen the fence design and have not even seen confirmation that a fence the full length of the trail would be required. There are already many unsightly things along Paugus Bay, a fence would be the least of our worries.
6. This is unfounded and amounts to fear-mongering IMO.
7. I know many good people on both sides of the issue. They are spread up and down the socioeconomic spectrum. Some would counter that it is a few "Laconia Elites" in a certain gated community that are the project's biggest objectors, so declaring the WOW Trail a movement propelled by "Laconia Elites" really isn't accurate.

Again, I very much respect your position on the issue, just merely playing devil's advocate.

Thanks. I enjoy the debate. I will address your comments in reverse order.

7. I grew up in Laconia, and trust me, none of the Laconia elites live in SD/LB. They are comprised of small business owners in the area. I can name names, but don't think it's worthwhile.

6. Regarding whether the WOW Trail is an avenue of egress for criminals, it's not opinion but fact. In another thread (I couldn't find it), the City published the number of incidents (calls) for the WOW Trail. It's staggering, something like 150 incidents over a six-year period. This number does not include the number of homeless people living in camps off of the WOW Trail that require evacuation from time-to-time. Also, I've had conversations with a former police chief who described the WOW Trail as an "avenue of egress" for criminals. The police are instructed to publicly downplay the criminal element, but privately, they hate the WOW Trail since it makes policing difficult.

5. Regarding the fence, if the trail and the railroad coexist, I'm pretty sure a fence is required. A fence will most certainly be required through SD/LB and in front of other private property if only for liability reasons.

4. WOW Trail organizers are going to make a heavy push for legislation to eliminate the railroad. If successful, this will achieve at least two advantages. It reduces the cost of construction. It also eliminates some huge design issues with Pickerel and Perch Coves.

3. Agreed.

2. Removing the railroad would incur some huge environmental issues caused by the chemically treated rail ties.

1. As a taxpayer, I don't want to pay for it.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Since this is an active Railroad I see no justification that it should be eliminated.

If this rail spur is abandoned then it starts a different discussion.

Safety is a major issue for both to coexist next to each other. Additionally, personal safety "could" be an issue due to potential criminal activity.



.

[joey2665]

As far as the fence goes, there are current 2 types of fences along the trail. Near the Belmont line there is a very nice would rail fence but in most of the Laconia portion it is an unsightly chain link fence that would look absolutely terrible along the lakefront.

[8gv]

My opinion is that the trail extension is supported by a few people who need a consulting firm to come up with the justification for its construction.



What is the status of the Colonial Theatre project?

I did not live in Laconia when that project was considered, accepted and started.

Is there a parallel to what is happening with the WOW trail?

How much tax payer money went into the still closed theatre?

If the theatre ever gets finished, where will people park to see a performance?

The downtown parking garage has safety issues and likely needs to be replaced.



Why is the city wasting money on studying the WOW Trail extension when these two items are in need?

See the opinion offered at the begining of this post.

BTW...

$40K could buy a good part of the annual salary for a police officer or teacher.

[stingray]

Has the east side of Paugus Bay been ruled out? The tracks that went up that side are obviously abandoned. Much more commercial opportunities. Still can get to the Weirs and/or Gilford.

The commercial opportunities on the west side are what? SD/LB Grandchildren’s lemonade stands?

BTW, have you counted how many registered offenders are in the Lake Port area?

https://www.familywatchdog.us/showmap.asp


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[joey2665]

Why does the city have to pay the 40k for a feasibility study. Shouldn’t this be paid from funds raised by the WOW Trail organization? This is their project not a city project.


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[winnipiseogee]

Most of my family is from Cape Cod (yeah - I'm a recovering masshole...) . I remember the same battle playing out and the many of the exact same arguments being made against the Cape Cod rail trail. Now in its 4th decade, it is a huge tourist draw and real estate adjacent to the trail commands a significant premium.

Wolfeboro has a rather nice and heavily used railtrail and to the best of my knowledge there is no significant crime that occurs along the trail.

[joey2665]

Most of my family is from Cape Cod (yeah - I'm a recovering masshole...) . I remember the same battle playing out and the many of the exact same arguments being made against the Cape Cod rail trail. Now in its 4th decade, it is a huge tourist draw and real estate adjacent to the trail commands a significant premium.



Wolfeboro has a rather nice and heavily used railtrail and to the best of my knowledge there is no significant crime that occurs along the trail.



I really don’t think crime is a big issue. Nothing will change what’s the difference if them “criminals” walk along the current tracks or a trail. I had my home broken into by criminals coming into Long Bay from the tracks.

I am in favor of the trail but with the following caveats:

1. There must be an amicable agreement with the majority of owners along the trail including developments like South Down and Long Bay

2. NO chain link fencing, it must be esthetically pleasing and have sufficient access points to the lake.

3. The rail road must remain

4. Funding MUST NOT come from the city, raising money privately as they first two phases were

Given my stance I seriously doubt the next phase will be completed




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[SAMIAM]

I have been a Rails to Trails member in Florida and have biked and walked several of them while on vacation and enjoy it very much.
Those trails, however, do not require fences or run in front of peoples homes.
I can't imagine a 4 mile long chain link fence across the entire Paugus Bay waterfront. Not only would it be unsightly but deer and other animals would be cut off from the water.
I have no dog in this fight since I don't live anywhere near South Down and my concern is the impact on our beautiful shore front.
My suggestion would be to let it go....The WOW trail organizers mean well but it seems that they have accomplished their goal. The trail extends from Winnisquam to Winnipesaukee

[Major]

Most of my family is from Cape Cod (yeah - I'm a recovering masshole...) . I remember the same battle playing out and the many of the exact same arguments being made against the Cape Cod rail trail. Now in its 4th decade, it is a huge tourist draw and real estate adjacent to the trail commands a significant premium.

Wolfeboro has a rather nice and heavily used railtrail and to the best of my knowledge there is no significant crime that occurs along the trail.

Wolfeboro has a different demographic than Laconia, which has a disproportionate share of Section 8 housing and several drug treatment centers. If you spend any time in downtown Laconia you will be sure to see the criminal element.

[winnipiseogee]

3. The rail road must remain

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Joey - Everything else you mention seems to make sense but I've got to ask - and I'm doing so in good faith but relative ignorance - why is it so important for the railroad to remain?

I've lived in the lakes region full time for about 15 years. For a long time I owned a house on Meredith bay opposite the rail road tracks. I own a business that abutts the tracks. After selling my house on the bay I kept my boat at Meredith Marina. In all that time I've only seen the train running maybe half a dozen times at most.

I just googled their website and I'm amazed that it shows that many scheduled runs. I guess it must be used a lot but I never see it.

[joey2665]

Joey - Everything else you mention seems to make sense but I've got to ask - and I'm doing so in good faith but relative ignorance - why is it so important for the railroad to remain?

I've lived in the lakes region full time for about 15 years. For a long time I owned a house on Meredith bay opposite the rail road tracks. I own a business that abutts the tracks. After selling my house on the bay I kept my boat at Meredith Marina. In all that time I've only seen the train running maybe half a dozen times at most.

I just googled their website and I'm amazed that it shows that many scheduled runs. I guess it must be used a lot but I never see it.

It is someone's going concern that has been a successful business for years. I had lived in Long Bay for 10 years about 250 yards from the tracks and I also enjoys using the railroad at least once a year (My guests love it also) and it adds character and ambiance to the area. I'm still in the area just a bit further from the tacks now, I do miss hearing it and watching it go by from my old deck.

[TiltonBB]

Just a few questions:

Didn't most, if not all, of the people in SD/LB know prior to purchasing their homes that the development did not own the waterfront so their input and approval was not necessary to get the WOW trail built?

Would the same people who object to the WOW trail now have objected if the railroad was not there and someone was now suggesting putting down tracks and having a train go by and blow the whistle several times a day?

What is more intrusive: People walking on a trail or a train that goes by blowing the whistle several times per day?

[joey2665]

Just a few questions:

Didn't most, if not all, of the people in SD/LB know prior to purchasing their homes that the development did not own the waterfront so their input and approval was not necessary to get the WOW trail built?

Would the same people who object to the WOW trail now have objected if the railroad was not there and someone was now suggesting putting down tracks and having a train go by and blow the whistle several times a day?

What is more intrusive: People walking on a trail or a train that goes by blowing the whistle several times per day?

1) I purchase over the years in both SD and LB and it was NEVER disclosed to me on any document that the HOA's did not own the waterfront property

2) I'm sure they would have (for the record give the guidelines I presented in an above post I am in favor of the trail)

3) I don't think given the current structure either is intrusive


Love to hear what Jet Skier has to say. We differ in opinion but I do respect his side.

[Bigstan]

BTW, have you counted how many registered offenders are in the Lake Port area?

https://www.familywatchdog.us/showmap.asp


Wow, there are a LOT. Who knew it was that many? Not me....

[Trail Goer]

Joey - Everything else you mention seems to make sense but I've got to ask - and I'm doing so in good faith but relative ignorance - why is it so important for the railroad to remain?

I've lived in the lakes region full time for about 15 years. For a long time I owned a house on Meredith bay opposite the rail road tracks. I own a business that abutts the tracks. After selling my house on the bay I kept my boat at Meredith Marina. In all that time I've only seen the train running maybe half a dozen times at most.

I just googled their website and I'm amazed that it shows that many scheduled runs. I guess it must be used a lot but I never see it.



Because the rail corridor is under common carrier status and subject to the Surface Transportation Board (STB) jurisdiction. A petition for abandonment would have to be filed with them and approved by them, be for any rail can be pulled up. That's kind of hard to do when you have two operating railroads on the line.

[jetskier]

1) I purchase over the years in both SD and LB and it was NEVER disclosed to me on any document that the HOA's did not own the waterfront property

2) I'm sure they would have (for the record give the guidelines I presented in an above post I am in favor of the trail)

3) I don't think given the current structure either is intrusive


Love to hear what Jet Skier has to say. We differ in opinion but I do respect his side.

Hi Joey,

Sorry about the late entry into the discussion. I was in California with a client and just got back into town on the red eye this morning.

The frontage along Paugus was "taken" by the state in (I believe) 1973 when B&M railroad could not afford to make repairs to the tracks north of Meredith. A section of the track washed out and there was an active paper mill serviced by the railroad at that time. The taking by the state was explicitly to preserve the integrity of the rail system and specific to railroad use.

OK, right now there is a legislative action in draft in Concord that will become public in early January. The prevailing belief is that it is intended to create an abandonment of the railroad to re-purpose the rail bed for rails-to-trails vs. rails-with-trails. See the link below.

There are two active rail users of the proposed extension to the WOW trail. One is the Hobo railroad that provides the tourist excursions several times per day during the summer. The second is the New England Southern Railroad (see attached picture) which is an active freight line. The New England Southern Railroad has runs up to Lincoln predominantly in the spring and fall when the Hobo railroad is not operating. They carry large freight including rail cars for the MBTA in Boston.

SD and LB both have rights of access to the lake and I have never heard of any disclosure regarding the disposition of the taking as historically it has not had any bearing on the community. I certainly had no disclosure when I bought my property.

I think that shutting down two active businesses to construct a recreational trail is not rational from any perspective.


http://www.unionleader.com/news/politics/laconia-to-look-at-rail-to-trail-options/article_deb14fbe-b4c1-5a36-93f8-310d8c442fc8.html

[jetskier]

Because the rail corridor is under common carrier status and subject to the Surface Transportation Board (STB) jurisdiction. A petition for abandonment would have to be filed with them and approved by them, be for any rail can be pulled up. That's kind of hard to do when you have two operating railroads on the line.

My understanding is that abandonment requires federal approval in addition to state approval. Typically, abandonment is requested by the company that owns the RR ROW. Since there was a taking, this situation is rather unique. Anyhow, the standard in New Hampshire is that the rail line needs to be unused for a minimum of 2 years.

Jetskier :cool:

[Trail Goer]

Yes, the state would be the one to file the petition but they can't until after all operating railroads file a discontinuance with the STB. Since both the Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad and New England Southern Railroad make their living using those tracks, it's unlikely they would ever do so. Just the Winnipesaukee Scenic railroad alone averages about a million a year in revenue for the parent company Plymouth and Lincoln. You think the Clark family who, owns the railroad is about to give that up? I think not.

[joey2665]

My understanding is that abandonment requires federal approval in addition to state approval. Typically, abandonment is requested by the company that owns the RR ROW. Since there was a taking, this situation is rather unique. Anyhow, the standard in New Hampshire is that the rail line needs to be unused for a minimum of 2 years.



Jetskier :cool:



We can always count on you for providing excellent facts. [emoji4]


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[joey2665]

Hi Joey,

Sorry about the late entry into the discussion. I was in California with a client and just got back into town on the red eye this morning.

The frontage along Paugus was "taken" by the state in (I believe) 1973 when B&M railroad could not afford to make repairs to the tracks north of Meredith. A section of the track washed out and there was an active paper mill serviced by the railroad at that time. The taking by the state was explicitly to preserve the integrity of the rail system and specific to railroad use.

OK, right now there is a legislative action in draft in Concord that will become public in early January. The prevailing belief is that it is intended to create an abandonment of the railroad to re-purpose the rail bed for rails-to-trails vs. rails-with-trails. See the link below.

There are two active rail users of the proposed extension to the WOW trail. One is the Hobo railroad that provides the tourist excursions several times per day during the summer. The second is the New England Southern Railroad (see attached picture) which is an active freight line. The New England Southern Railroad has runs up to Lincoln predominantly in the spring and fall when the Hobo railroad is not operating. They carry large freight including rail cars for the MBTA in Boston.

SD and LB both have rights of access to the lake and I have never heard of any disclosure regarding the disposition of the taking as historically it has not had any bearing on the community. I certainly had no disclosure when I bought my property.

I think that shutting down two active businesses to construct a recreational trail is not rational from any perspective.

http://www.unionleader.com/news/politics/laconia-to-look-at-rail-to-trail-options/article_deb14fbe-b4c1-5a36-93f8-310d8c442fc8.html

I absolutely agree shutting down two businesses for a trail is completely irrational.

Interesting information. I did not know the Clark Family owns the Hobo and Winnipesaukee Scenic Railways.


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[jetskier]

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/rail-line-through-laconia-is-active-serves-the-public/article_f25333cc-fa66-11e8-90ae-734b58f6d6f1.html

Incidentally, the economic study that the city of Laconia has commissioned with Alta is going to cost about $40k. The original Lipman proposal was $10k to be paid for by the WOW Committee. So now, tax payer dollars are funding a study to remove the tracks and shut down two businesses. Really!

Jetskier:cool:

[Outdoorsman]

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/rail-line-through-laconia-is-active-serves-the-public/article_f25333cc-fa66-11e8-90ae-734b58f6d6f1.html

Incidentally, the economic study that the city of Laconia has commissioned with Alta is going to cost about $40k. The original Lipman proposal was $10k to be paid for by the WOW Committee. So now, tax payer dollars are funding a study to remove the tracks and shut down two businesses. Really!

Jetskier:cool:

What are the two businesses in jeopardy of being shut down? Are they using State owned property to turn a profit?

[tis]

Why do all these towns/cities spend so much money on STUDIES?? We are studied to death! Isn't there enough talent employed (by town/cities) and maybe add some citizens willing to volunteer?

[Outdoorsman]

Why do all these towns/cities spend so much money on STUDIES?? We are studied to death! Isn't there enough talent employed (by town/cities) and maybe add some citizens willing to volunteer?

I would dare say that a study by towns/cities (even with citizens weighing in) would be biased. Imagine the results if some of the people commenting on this thread were involved with the study!

[tis]

I would dare say that a study by towns/cities (even with citizens weighing in) would be biased. Imagine the results if some of the people commenting on this thread were involved with the study!

I thought of that as I was typing but do they always do what is recommended by these studies anyway? I think they do what they want regardless. I think often studies are only the result of what they are told by the people who hired them. Ever been involved in a study?

[mishman]

I appreciate that neighbors are concerned about crime. We all are worried about crime however saying they oppose the rail trail because it would be a thoroughfare for criminals to use is a bit of stretch. Do you close roadways because a burglar escapes by car?

I have been on dozens of rail trails around the country and they are avenues where people who appreciate exercise and the outdoors go to recreate safely. There is even a rail trail on the Kennebec River near Augusta Maine that shares a corridor with an active railroad and they co exist just fine. Literally hundreds of people a day use the trail (and probably pushes to a thousand or more in the summer). Businesses have been established along the trail to cater to trail users. Publicity by inns, restaurants and bars all cite their proximity to the trail.

Give the trail a chance. It will turn out to be a huge asset to the area.

[jetskier]

What are the two businesses in jeopardy of being shut down? Are they using State owned property to turn a profit?

They are the Hobo railroad which runs the tourist train along the route and NH Southern Railroad which runs freight in the spring and fall via that route.

The Hobo Railroad has a contract with the state for operation along the route and NH Southern Railroad is a common carrier with a federal license to operate.

The Hobo railroad would be completely shutdown and the NH Southern Railroad would lose the northern portion of their operating route.

Jetskier:cool:

[jetskier]

I appreciate that neighbors are concerned about crime. We all are worried about crime however saying they oppose the rail trail because it would be a thoroughfare for criminals to use is a bit of stretch. Do you close roadways because a burglar escapes by car?

I have been on dozens of rail trails around the country and they are avenues where people who appreciate exercise and the outdoors go to recreate safely. There is even a rail trail on the Kennebec River near Augusta Maine that shares a corridor with an active railroad and they co exist just fine. Literally hundreds of people a day use the trail (and probably pushes to a thousand or more in the summer). Businesses have been established along the trail to cater to trail users. Publicity by inns, restaurants and bars all cite their proximity to the trail.

Give the trail a chance. It will turn out to be a huge asset to the area.

Take a look at the crime heat map

https://www.trulia.com/real_estate/Laconia-New_Hampshire/crime/

Also there have been a significant number of crimes, homeless encampments etc...along the existing trail. It is a legitimate concern.

Jetskier :cool:

[winnipiseogee]

I really don't mean this question to be as snarky as it sounds - I am sincere in my interest.

Does everyone opposed to the Wow trail live in Southdown or are there opponents to the project from outside that community?

I ask because I spent a good bit rereading all the old threads and it seems like everyone criticism of the Wow trail comes for someone who self identities as a southdown resident.

[jetskier]

I really don't mean this question to be as snarky as it sounds - I am sincere in my interest.

Does everyone opposed to the Wow trail live in Southdown or are there opponents to the project from outside that community?

I ask because I spent a good bit rereading all the old threads and it seems like everyone criticism of the Wow trail comes for someone who self identities as a southdown resident.

There are many others...residents of Paugus Park, Long Bay, snowmobiliers and several of the marinas. Note that it is the route that is problematic and not the concept of the trail. There have been proposals for alternative routes, but that has fallen on deaf ears. Given that they are proposing to remove the tracks, you can add railroad enthusiasts, NH DOT etc...to the list.

[winnipiseogee]

Respectfully Jetskier, here is what I am struggling with - The residents of Paugus Bay Park, Southdown, Longbay and the owners of the marinas all own property that abuts a public right of way. But they don't want the public on that right of way. They want them somewhere else. Somewhere not next to them.

Its like buying a house next to a park and then arguing that the park should be closed so that you don't heave to deal with people next to your house. Am I missing something here?

I understand why the railroad owners have a strong argument that their businesses shouldn't be harmed.

I'm just learning about the WOW trail so I will fully admit I may be ignorant of some important facts. What am I missing here?

Also I'm just thinking about the snowmobilers. Is it that the snowmobilers use the rails in the winter as part of their trail network and don't want other uses of the trails? It doesn't seem fair to limit recreational use of a public right of way to a single type of use.

[jetskier]

Respectfully Jetskier, here is what I am struggling with - The residents of Paugus Bay Park, Southdown, Longbay and the owners of the marinas all own property that abuts a public right of way. But they don't want the public on that right of way. They want them somewhere else. Somewhere not next to them.

Its like buying a house next to a park and then arguing that the park should be closed so that you don't heave to deal with people next to your house. Am I missing something here?

I understand why the railroad owners have a strong argument that their businesses shouldn't be harmed.

I'm just learning about the WOW trail so I will fully admit I may be ignorant of some important facts. What am I missing here?

Also I'm just thinking about the snowmobilers. Is it that the snowmobilers use the rails in the winter as part of their trail network and don't want other uses of the trails? It doesn't seem fair to limit recreational use of a public right of way to a single type of use.

Hi winnipiseogee,

The current Railroad ROW is not a public ROW, it is a state ROW established by a taking for the purpose of RR use. As I previously stated, this occurred when B&M was having financial issues and the state stepped in. The notion that this is an unrestricted public right of way is flat out wrong.

The current WOW trail (and federal) funding stipulates that the trail is for unmotorized use only. This is currently part of the state snowmobile trail system and the trail/snowmobile trail is a conflict in use the way things are set up.

Jetskier:cool:

[winnipiseogee]

If the use is limited exclusively to railroad use how is it being used as a snowmobile trail?

[joey2665]

If the use is limited exclusively to railroad use how is it being used as a snowmobile trail?

The State of NH has given permission to the Belknap Snowmobile Assn to use and maintain the trails over the rails during the snowmobile season and added to the State Trail System many years ago. The rail does not run during snowmobile season. Note it is the WOW proponents and federal funding for the WOW trail state the WOW Trail isf or UNMOTORIZED use only which changes the complete landscape

[Trail Goer]

Respectfully Jetskier, here is what I am struggling with - The residents of Paugus Bay Park, Southdown, Longbay and the owners of the marinas all own property that abuts a public right of way. But they don't want the public on that right of way. They want them somewhere else. Somewhere not next to them.

Its like buying a house next to a park and then arguing that the park should be closed so that you don't heave to deal with people next to your house. Am I missing something here?

I understand why the railroad owners have a strong argument that their businesses shouldn't be harmed.

I'm just learning about the WOW trail so I will fully admit I may be ignorant of some important facts. What am I missing here?

Also I'm just thinking about the snowmobilers. Is it that the snowmobilers use the rails in the winter as part of their trail network and don't want other uses of the trails? It doesn't seem fair to limit recreational use of a public right of way to a single type of use.

It is not a public right of way. It is a railroad right of way that is owned by the state. This railroad corridor is not abandoned, the state can't just do as they please, this is the reason the state has already told the city of Laconia that rail takes priority.

[Trail Goer]

What are the two businesses in jeopardy of being shut down? Are they using State owned property to turn a profit?


There's technically 4 businesses. And yes they are turning a profit on the state owned line and the state gets 10% of those profits.

1 - Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad (Doing business as Hobo Railroad and the Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad)
2 - The Lincoln shops - supplies maintenance for the Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad plus bids on outside contracts (like the MBTA for example), they refurbish cars and locomotives and is a year round operation. They just did work on a caboose for the MBTA and in fact, that caboose was just shipped out last week.
3. New England Southern Railroad - a common carrier railroad that has freight rights on the entire line from Concord to Lincoln.
4. Café Lafayette Dinner Train - if you know their history, cars have come and gone, and cutting off the railroad would hinder their ability to change and adapt as they see fit.

[winnipiseogee]

Thanks Trail Goer - thats really interesting information. I had no idea that the railway line was still being used to anything near that extent.

[Trail Goer]

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/rail-line-through-laconia-is-active-serves-the-public/article_f25333cc-fa66-11e8-90ae-734b58f6d6f1.html?fbclid=IwAR0oGycahl5JLLtrA6wUW2I D_0Gr897P2pdi0467OjMwId6CQpHBasPUT_8


I'm sure the Daily Sun would love to bury this letter to the editor.

[joey2665]

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/rail-line-through-laconia-is-active-serves-the-public/article_f25333cc-fa66-11e8-90ae-734b58f6d6f1.html?fbclid=IwAR0oGycahl5JLLtrA6wUW2I D_0Gr897P2pdi0467OjMwId6CQpHBasPUT_8


I'm sure the Daily Sun would love to bury this letter to the editor.

Well written and very informative letter. As I have stated I do like the WOW trail but discontinuing and sacrificing the rail to extend the trail is a horrible idea.

[Fargo]

Why don’t they run the trail up Weirs Boulevard and while they’re at it bury the power lines. As it stands now there’s short lengths of sidewalks along the boulevard that go nowhere. Maybe people would walk to the many businesses along this route.

[Major]

Why don’t they run the trail up Weirs Boulevard and while they’re at it bury the power lines. As it stands now there’s short lengths of sidewalks along the boulevard that go nowhere. Maybe people would walk to the many businesses along this route.

My understanding is that they would not be eligible for Federal dollars under the Rail to Trail legislation, and would have to finance that portion without any Federal assistance. Others may know more about this.

[joey2665]

My understanding is that they would not be eligible for Federal dollars under the Rail to Trail legislation, and would have to finance that portion without any Federal assistance. Others may know more about this.

That is true the trail must be along the rail line for federal assistance. Our resident expert jetskier I'm sure can give the specifics of the Rail to Trail legislation

[TiltonBB]

Why don’t they run the trail up Weirs Boulevard and while they’re at it bury the power lines. As it stands now there’s short lengths of sidewalks along the boulevard that go nowhere. Maybe people would walk to the many businesses along this route.

The city has required many builders and developers along Weirs Boulevard to build sidewalks in front of their property as a condition of approval of the project and the issuance of a building permit.

In many cases that sidewalk stands alone and the adjacent property topography is such that there will never be a sidewalk that connects to it. But, you can't fight city hall (and expect to win)

[jetskier]

My understanding is that they would not be eligible for Federal dollars under the Rail to Trail legislation, and would have to finance that portion without any Federal assistance. Others may know more about this.

This is a misnomer. The federal funding program is set up to cover a wide variety of alternative transportation projects. It was covered under what was known as MAP-21 (see below for applicable catagories) and now known as FAST. We have proposed running the trail along the far side of Paugus Bay (Lakeport avenue) as one of the alternative route proposals. Several of the merchants have indicated that this would be welcome as they don't even have a contiguous sidewalk. In addition, this route would go past a significant number of businesses. The route along the railroad passes virtually no businesses.

Note that NH DOT is the administrative entity for applying for Federal transportation money and they have broad discretion in distribution of funds under FAST.

The Commissioner (I believe actually the assistant Commissioner) of NH DOT held a public meeting in Meredith on December 5th. From what I heard, there is very little Federal money available even for primary transportation initiatives at the moment.

Jetskier :cool:


https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/map21/factsheets/tap.cfm
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/fastact/factsheets/transportationalternativesfs.cfm

[boat_guy64]

There's technically 4 businesses. And yes they are turning a profit on the state owned line and the state gets 10% of those profits.

1 - Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad (Doing business as Hobo Railroad and the Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad)
2 - The Lincoln shops - supplies maintenance for the Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad plus bids on outside contracts (like the MBTA for example), they refurbish cars and locomotives and is a year round operation. They just did work on a caboose for the MBTA and in fact, that caboose was just shipped out last week.
3. New England Southern Railroad - a common carrier railroad that has freight rights on the entire line from Concord to Lincoln.
4. Café Lafayette Dinner Train - if you know their history, cars have come and gone, and cutting off the railroad would hinder their ability to change and adapt as they see fit.



While this may be technically correct, I don't think it reflects reality. I live on the railroad and it is only used by the Hobo Railroad. While the Hobo may be profitable, they are using state owned and maintained assets. Other than the yearly mini railroad car parade and the hundreds of people walking along the railroad, Hobo is the only user. I can't imagine the state will ever recover the costs of rebuilding the RR after the flash flood a few years ago that washed out the Weirs and many other places from Laconia to Lincoln.

A freight company may have the rights but as I said, I live on the railroad and it is very poorly maintained. This current railroad would fall apart with freight. I can pull out a hundred spikes with my own hands in the RR in front of my house.

Personally, I'd enjoy the wow trail. I'd ride my bike to the Weirs and to downtown Meredith. However, I don't think it can be built with the rails still in existing.

[birchhaven]

I heard the hobo rail road is state subsized, and that is why you see it running even with no customers all the time. It pays dot a percentage of ticket sales but the state pays the hobo ensuring a profit.

I love the idea of a trolley you could flag down and ride to any where on the track. If the wow trail is built, it should allow snowmobiles (and utvs, atvs, etc) in the winter. And low speed carts in the summer.

I also think Laconia is researching the tracks overall inpact on the city. The city has more lake frontage than any town. Yet a large percentage is impacted by the tracks (and roads) , reducing the value of the propertys. It's not just about the wow trail.

[jetskier]

While this may be technically correct, I don't think it reflects reality. I live on the railroad and it is only used by the Hobo Railroad. While the Hobo may be profitable, they are using state owned and maintained assets. Other than the yearly mini railroad car parade and the hundreds of people walking along the railroad, Hobo is the only user. I can't imagine the state will ever recover the costs of rebuilding the RR after the flash flood a few years ago that washed out the Weirs and many other places from Laconia to Lincoln.

A freight company may have the rights but as I said, I live on the railroad and it is very poorly maintained. This current railroad would fall apart with freight. I can pull out a hundred spikes with my own hands in the RR in front of my house.

Personally, I'd enjoy the wow trail. I'd ride my bike to the Weirs and to downtown Meredith. However, I don't think it can be built with the rails still in existing.

The New England Southern Railroad ran a load over the tracks a few weeks back. I posted a picture (another one attached) and there was a picture in the Laconia Daily Sun. First, the Hobo/Winnipesaukee Scenic railroad pay the state for use of the rail road ROW. The state is responsible for maintaining the railway. The numbers that I heard is that the revenue for the Hobo/Winnipesaukee Railroad was about $1M and they paid the state $100k.

The New England Southern Railroad is a federally licensed common carrier with rights to use the railroad.

Jetskier:cool:

[jetskier]

I heard the hobo rail road is state subsized, and that is why you see it running even with no customers all the time. It pays dot a percentage of ticket sales but the state pays the hobo ensuring a profit.

I love the idea of a trolley you could flag down and ride to any where on the track. If the wow trail is built, it should allow snowmobiles (and utvs, atvs, etc) in the winter. And low speed carts in the summer.

I also think Laconia is researching the tracks overall inpact on the city. The city has more lake frontage than any town. Yet a large percentage is impacted by the tracks (and roads) , reducing the value of the propertys. It's not just about the wow trail.

The city is paying $40k for an economic study essentially to try to rationalize removing the tracks. It is interesting that the city has money for this and not other initiatives (such as Milfoil eradication)....but that is a topic for another time.

The WOW trail has been funded with Federal money for alternative transportation...a prerequisite is that all motorized vehicles are banned. Right now the railway along Paugus is part of the state wide snowmobile trail system. If the WOW trail is built, then snowmobiles etc...will not be permitted.

Jetskier:cool:

[birchhaven]

The city is paying $40k for an economic study essentially to try to rationalize removing the tracks. It is interesting that the city has money for this and not other initiatives (such as Milfoil eradication)....but that is a topic for another time.

The WOW trail has been funded with Federal money for alternative transportation...a prerequisite is that all motorized vehicles are banned. Right now the railway along Paugus is part of the state wide snowmobile trail system. If the WOW trail is built, then snowmobiles etc...will not be permitted.

Jetskier:cool:

Hi JetSkier,

My opinion of the trail goes back and forth. I do find all arguement people use for and against paper thin. Basic political fear mongering. For instance the crime argument is a joke. Does anyone really think criminals care if they have to walk on tracks or a trail to break into someones house. (I would actually think they would prefer no trail, so less eyes on there activity). The homeless people living on the tracks always did, now people just see it because now they use the trail.

I understand that the federal money requires that. I am saying that I disagree with that requirement and I think the money could be raised else where so that, snowmobiles, golf carts, etc can use the trail. As state property other things like UTVs should be allow to use it not just snowmobiles (whole other conversation). The federal requirement has a purpose I don't think it works well in our area. A big part of the enjoyment of the lakes region is all the toys people use and the trail system should lean on that not push it away.

I had not hear that 1 million dollar # but WOW. 1st that means for roughly 15 weeks, 7 days a week, they sell close to 500 adult tickets per day. No way!! haha, I see it empty 80% of the time and at most 30 people on it. So I am missing something that they are selling to generate that revenue. 2nd, That train has got to cost way more than 1 million to operate per year. 3rd if that is correct, 100k to the state is not enough to maintain those tracks, not even close. So it is being subsidized one way or another. So we should all stop saying it is profitable and that the state makes money on it. What we should say is that it is a nice novelty, and probably draws money in other ways, and employs a lot of people and that is all good.

This also goes to my point the city is researching the economic impact the tracks have beyond just the trail. But does it actually draw people, I 100% guarantee you that with no track the city pulls in way more than 100k in additional tax revenue.

Like I said my opinion changes like the wind on this subject, but at the monent after seeing those numbers, I gotta say I am pro trail.

[8gv]

The crime issue goes like this:

It's 10 pm and two young men are walking on the tracks.

"Hey, what are doing here? You cannot be on the tracks or adjacent private property. I'm calling the cops!"

OR...

It's 10 pm and two young men are walking on the WOW trail.

"Hey, what are doing here?"

"We are taking a walk on the WOW trail."

Bad intentions? Maybe.

Can we deter folks from walking through our back yards?

With the WOW trail, the answer is no.

[Outdoorsman]

There is an obvious solution to the issues in this area.

The State should take all the SD/LB property by eminent domain. Build the new WOW trail on the lower portion of the land. Pave the rest of the property to make a nice parking lot for the casino that is being built on the State School property. To take it one step further, they can use a shuttle (make it look like a trolley if you want) that can transport people to downtown Laconia so they can raze the parking garage that is falling down.

Three problems solved with one solution AND a new shuttle business is created.

[jetskier]

Hi JetSkier,

My opinion of the trail goes back and forth. I do find all arguement people use for and against paper thin. Basic political fear mongering. For instance the crime argument is a joke. Does anyone really think criminals care if they have to walk on tracks or a trail to break into someones house. (I would actually think they would prefer no trail, so less eyes on there activity). The homeless people living on the tracks always did, now people just see it because now they use the trail.

I understand that the federal money requires that. I am saying that I disagree with that requirement and I think the money could be raised else where so that, snowmobiles, golf carts, etc can use the trail. As state property other things like UTVs should be allow to use it not just snowmobiles (whole other conversation). The federal requirement has a purpose I don't think it works well in our area. A big part of the enjoyment of the lakes region is all the toys people use and the trail system should lean on that not push it away.

I had not hear that 1 million dollar # but WOW. 1st that means for roughly 15 weeks, 7 days a week, they sell close to 500 adult tickets per day. No way!! haha, I see it empty 80% of the time and at most 30 people on it. So I am missing something that they are selling to generate that revenue. 2nd, That train has got to cost way more than 1 million to operate per year. 3rd if that is correct, 100k to the state is not enough to maintain those tracks, not even close. So it is being subsidized one way or another. So we should all stop saying it is profitable and that the state makes money on it. What we should say is that it is a nice novelty, and probably draws money in other ways, and employs a lot of people and that is all good.

This also goes to my point the city is researching the economic impact the tracks have beyond just the trail. But does it actually draw people, I 100% guarantee you that with no track the city pulls in way more than 100k in additional tax revenue.

Like I said my opinion changes like the wind on this subject, but at the monent after seeing those numbers, I gotta say I am pro trail.

Hi birchhaven,

First, the crime argument is no joke. I am attaching a link to a 91-A disclosure of the police activity (does not include the fire department activity) from 2016 to November of 2018. There are issues with homeless encampments, drugs, transients accosting pedestrians. This is no joke!

You can't take federal alternative transportation money and allow motorized trail use...period! The existing phase 1 and phase 2 segments of the trail are 50% subsidized by federal money.

The railroad(s) - Winnipesaukee Scenic, Hobo, New England Southern and Lafayette Dinner train are all active and create revenue, jobs and secondary benefits. The repair depot in Lincoln also relies on the railway. So, there is substantial impact to removing the tracks. Personally, I have never heard anyone say that they are coming up to the lake for the reason of using the WOW trail.

Jetskier:cool:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/58026584-5409-4cf0-b23c-86a59371ad20/downloads/1cuhjdkc5_916831.pdf

[TiltonBB]

The crime issue goes like this:

It's 10 pm and two young men are walking on the tracks.

"Hey, what are doing here? You cannot be on the tracks or adjacent private property. I'm calling the cops!"

OR...

It's 10 pm and two young men are walking on the WOW trail.

"Hey, what are doing here?"

"We are taking a walk on the WOW trail."

Bad intentions? Maybe.

Can we deter folks from walking through our back yards?

With the WOW trail, the answer is no.

I didn't know that you could prevent people from walking on that tracks that are adjacent to your property. Interesting!

Would the same law that would keep people from walking on the tracks near your property enable homeowners in other areas to prevent people from walking down the public street that is adjacent to their house?

[8gv]

I didn't know that you could prevent people from walking on that tracks that are adjacent to your property. Interesting!

Would the same law that would keep people from walking on the tracks near your property enable homeowners in other areas to prevent people from walking down the public street that is adjacent to their house?

My understanding is that unauthorized track walking is trespassing.

There are places where crossing the tracks is permitted by prior arrangement.

I reserve the right to be corrected though. :D

[joey2665]

The crime issue goes like this:

It's 10 pm and two young men are walking on the tracks.

"Hey, what are doing here? You cannot be on the tracks or adjacent private property. I'm calling the cops!"

OR...

It's 10 pm and two young men are walking on the WOW trail.

"Hey, what are doing here?"

"We are taking a walk on the WOW trail."

Bad intentions? Maybe.

Can we deter folks from walking through our back yards?

With the WOW trail, the answer is no.

Completely disagree. Trail or rail makes no difference they will walk along no matter what is there. If you call the police at 10pm to say someone is walking along the rail line they may respond but isn’t certainly not a priority. I’m speaking as someone who was broken into from people walking in from the rail line.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

[Trail Goer]

I heard the hobo rail road is state subsized, and that is why you see it running even with no customers all the time. It pays dot a percentage of ticket sales but the state pays the hobo ensuring a profit.


The state does not subsidize any railroad, it doesn't even subsidize the Downeaster which is a government subsidized operation. The Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad is a for profit railroad, if they don't make money, they wouldn't be in business. All the railroads that operate on state owned tracks, operate in accordance to the lease agreement with the state. If the lease agreement states the state is responsible for x amount of dollars for track maintenance, then that is what the state agreed too.

[8gv]

Completely disagree. Trail or rail makes no difference they will walk along no matter what is there. If you call the police at 10pm to say someone is walking along the rail line they may respond but isn’t certainly not a priority. I’m speaking as someone who was broken into from people walking in from the rail line.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)

Sorry to hear of the break in.

My point is that currently the late evening rail walkers have no legitimate reason for being there. Maybe the police come, maybe they don't.

The trail would give more access and a level of legitimacy that might not warrant a visit from the police.

[joey2665]

Sorry to hear of the break in.

My point is that currently the late evening rail walkers have no legitimate reason for being there. Maybe the police come, maybe they don't.

The trail would give more access and a level of legitimacy that might not warrant a visit from the police.

Understood. Just don't think its a major reason to turn down the trail. Although I am in favor of the trail, I do have quite a few requirements for the project to move forward in my eyes as I have stated in above posts.

[Trail Goer]

I had not hear that 1 million dollar # but WOW. 1st that means for roughly 15 weeks, 7 days a week, they sell close to 500 adult tickets per day. No way!! haha, I see it empty 80% of the time and at most 30 people on it. So I am missing something that they are selling to generate that revenue. 2nd, That train has got to cost way more than 1 million to operate per year. 3rd if that is correct, 100k to the state is not enough to maintain those tracks, not even close. So it is being subsidized one way or another. So we should all stop saying it is profitable and that the state makes money on it. What we should say is that it is a nice novelty, and probably draws money in other ways, and employs a lot of people and that is all good.


$100K to the state, the numbers don't lie and I don't think the are offering to pay more than the 10% they are required. I have no idea what their overhead cost are but if it were a million a year then they would be out business or in that case they would be making far more than 1 million a year which you claim is impossible, since the trains according to your assertion are empty. Do you work in the railroad industry, do you know how much it cost to maintain railroad tracks to FRA Class 1 standards?
You're mud slinging unfounded info at a wall and hoping it sticks, you don't like the train that's fine, that's your opinion but if your going to argue your point, use facts don't just make stuff up.

[Biggd]

Understood. Just don't think its a major reason to turn down the trail. Although I am in favor of the trail, I do have quite a few requirements for the project to move forward in my eyes as I have stated in above posts.If a trail gets built and has a lot of legit users then it may deter thieves because of more people around. Also most of the rail trails that I've used are patrolled by police where as the railroad trail is not unless someone calls and reports suspicious activity.

[Trail Goer]

While this may be technically correct, I don't think it reflects reality. I live on the railroad and it is only used by the Hobo Railroad. While the Hobo may be profitable, they are using state owned and maintained assets. Other than the yearly mini railroad car parade and the hundreds of people walking along the railroad, Hobo is the only user. I can't imagine the state will ever recover the costs of rebuilding the RR after the flash flood a few years ago that washed out the Weirs and many other places from Laconia to Lincoln.

A freight company may have the rights but as I said, I live on the railroad and it is very poorly maintained. This current railroad would fall apart with freight. I can pull out a hundred spikes with my own hands in the RR in front of my house.

Personally, I'd enjoy the wow trail. I'd ride my bike to the Weirs and to downtown Meredith. However, I don't think it can be built with the rails still in existing.

1. Do you know how much it cost to repair the washout? I don't but I sure would like to see the $ amount it cost the state. Was any of that money covered in federal disaster relief funds? How much did the railroad chip in? Also its been mention time and time again, there's more than just the Hobo that operates the line.

2. Said freight company New England Southern Railroad, is a common carrier railroad and guess what, so is the very tracks they operate on up to Lincoln, NH. The state may own the railroad corridor but its governed by the Surface Transportation Board (STB). They are the ones that approve and disapprove freight rights. By law the state has to award a common carrier railroad the rights to the line because it is not an abandoned corridor.

3. Are you a certified FRA track inspector? Lets leave those assumptions to certified track inspectors please. FYI the track on this line is rated as class 1. see attachment for more details. http://www.jgmes.com/webstart/library/table_fra_track.htm

4. Why don't you think the two can't co-exist like it does now south of Lakeport?

[boat_guy64]

1. Do you know how much it cost to repair the washout? I don't but I sure would like to see the $ amount it cost the state. Was any of that money covered in federal disaster relief funds? How much did the railroad chip in? Also its been mention time and time again, there's more than just the Hobo that operates the line.

2. Said freight company New England Southern Railroad, is a common carrier railroad and guess what, so is the very tracks they operate on up to Lincoln, NH. The state may own the railroad corridor but its governed by the Surface Transportation Board (STB). They are the ones that approve and disapprove freight rights. By law the state has to award a common carrier railroad the rights to the line because it is not an abandoned corridor.

3. Are you a certified FRA track inspector? Lets leave those assumptions to certified track inspectors please. FYI the track on this line is rated as class 1. see attachment for more details. http://www.jgmes.com/webstart/library/table_fra_track.htm

4. Why don't you think the two can't co-exist like it does now south of Lakeport?

1. I don't know. but I saw them work for weeks on places that didn't make the news. I saw the tracks floating 30 feet in the air in Ashland where all of the ground was washed away. I saw the culverts replaced in Meredith Bay. I wish I knew how much it cost.

2. I've never seen freight (and I have years of footage on my webcam) on this line. They may have to give someone the rights but we all know it has never been used in modern times.

3. No....just an Engineer but smart enough to know that many spikes are 75% out of the wood and would not take a heavy load. They replaced many ties in front of my house this year. They left the area a mess. Not sure why DES doesn't hold the railroad accountable for keeping our waterfront clean.

4. Look on google maps. There are many pinch points. Unless the trail reroutes through private land and only public roads, there is no path along the RR for both the train and people. It would be alot easier and provide much easier access if they just ripped out the rails like has been done in so many southern NH areas (Londonderry and Windham) and Northern areas (Colebrook and Pittsburg)

[Trail Goer]

2. New England Southern has sole discretion of those rights under lease agreement with the state, if they feel its time to cut the cord, they are the ones that would have to file a discontinuance with the STB to give up those rights, the state can't do it for them. Given their current stance on this issue, I don't expect they will be filing anything with the STB any time soon.
4. Your reference to the other rail lines with rail trails, were constructed on abandoned lines. This rail corridor is not abandoned.

[jetskier]

2. New England Southern has sole discretion of those rights under lease agreement with the state, if they feel its time to cut the cord, they are the ones that would have to file a discontinuance with the STB to give up those rights, the state can't do it for them. Given their current stance on this issue, I don't expect they will be filing anything with the STB any time soon.
4. Your reference to the other rail lines with rail trails, were constructed on abandoned lines. This rail corridor is not abandoned.

Hi Trail Goer,

Thank you for your factual comments. I have personally talked to the owner of the New England Southern Railroad multiple times. I can tell you emphatically that he has no intent to discontinue freight service along his northern corridor (Concord to Lincoln).

You are correct that it is typically the rail carrier that owns the right of way that files for discontinuance. In this case, the taking was by the state and both the Hobo Railroad and New England Southern Railroad have licenses with the state. New England Southern is licensed with STB as a common carrier...so they also have a federal license to operate. The historical rule has been that a rail line is not formally abandoned unless it has been unused for at least 2 years.

Jetskier :cool:

[boat_guy64]

2. New England Southern has sole discretion of those rights under lease agreement with the state, if they feel its time to cut the cord, they are the ones that would have to file a discontinuance with the STB to give up those rights, the state can't do it for them. Given their current stance on this issue, I don't expect they will be filing anything with the STB any time soon.
4. Your reference to the other rail lines with rail trails, were constructed on abandoned lines. This rail corridor is not abandoned.

Good points...Thanks.

[jetskier]

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/tourist-railroad-is-an-economic-engine-for-lakes-region/article_e2d66af0-0235-11e9-b363-0fa21b177816.html

[Woodsy]

IMHO.... I think its pretty idiotic of the city to spend $40K and "commission a study" to see if its worthwhile to to put a viable, contributing business... out of business. That is just moronic. Perhaps we should commission a study that would lengthen the Laconia Airport Runways and put Patrick's out of business?

I do like the premise of the WOW trail... and they did a nice job on the other sections of the trail. However, they need to co-exist with the railroad just like in the other trail sections. If it costs more $$$ to build, so what? Deal with it.

I get the Southdown (and other Property owners) objections, but its a State owned ROW... that already becomes a public thoroughfare from Dec 15th thru spring. I think they both need to come to the table, and make a deal both side can live with. A pretty post & beam fence like the other sections would not look bad. Rerouting the trail off of state owned property is silly, especially if its done just because some wealthy private community decides to go NIMBY...

Woodsy

[joey2665]

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/tourist-railroad-is-an-economic-engine-for-lakes-region/article_e2d66af0-0235-11e9-b363-0fa21b177816.html

I just do not understand why it must be one or the other. They can easily coexist with certain requirements being set if everyone gets on the same page but that unfortunately is unlikely.

[Trail Goer]

IMHO.... I think its pretty idiotic of the city to spend $40K and "commission a study" to see if its worthwhile to to put a viable, contributing business... out of business. That is just moronic. Perhaps we should commission a study that would lengthen the Laconia Airport Runways and put Patrick's out of business?

I do like the premise of the WOW trail... and they did a nice job on the other sections of the trail. However, they need to co-exist with the railroad just like in the other trail sections. If it costs more $$$ to build, so what? Deal with it.

I get the Southdown (and other Property owners) objections, but its a State owned ROW... that already becomes a public thoroughfare from Dec 15th thru spring. I think they both need to come to the table, and make a deal both side can live with. A pretty post & beam fence like the other sections would not look bad. Rerouting the trail off of state owned property is silly, especially if its done just because some wealthy private community decides to go NIMBY...

Woodsy

It looks even worse considering the study was supposed to be paid for by donations that the WOW trail was supposed to raise. I guess the voters in the city had no say in whether or not the city should spend that kind of tax payer money. Had this spending gone before the voters, I bet it would've been defeated.

[joey2665]

It looks even worse considering the study was supposed to be paid for by donations that the WOW trail was supposed to raise. I guess the voters in the city had no say in whether or not the city should spend that kind of tax payer money. Had this spending gone before the voters, I bet it would've been defeated.

I'm sure the city does not need voter approval for a 40k expenditure probably taken out of the general fund

[Major]

IMHO.... I think its pretty idiotic of the city to spend $40K and "commission a study" to see if its worthwhile to to put a viable, contributing business... out of business. That is just moronic. Perhaps we should commission a study that would lengthen the Laconia Airport Runways and put Patrick's out of business?

I love the idea of extending the runway to put Patrick's out of business! Just so long as the liquor store is unaffected!:D

[Trail Goer]

I'm sure the city does not need voter approval for a 40k expenditure probably taken out of the general fund

Spending money on land they don't own and have no control over. It must give those that give a damn, a nice warm fuzzy feeling knowing the city just wasted 40k at the drop of a hat.

[joey2665]

Spending money on land they don't own and have no control over. It must give those that give a damn, a nice warm fuzzy feeling knowing the city just wasted 40k at the drop of a hat.

I agree. No matter what side of the "fence" you are on the WOW Trail Organizers should have paid the bill

[jetskier]

I agree. No matter what side of the "fence" you are on the WOW Trail Organizers should have paid the bill

Note that this was originally going to be $10k paid by the WOW Organization...when it was approved by the Laconia Council it turned into a city expenditure not to exceed $50k. This is at the same time that the city is cutting back on other expenditures such as Milfoil control.

Jetskier:cool:

[joey2665]

Note that this was originally going to be $10k paid by the WOW Organization...when it was approved by the Laconia Council it turned into a city expenditure not to exceed $50k. This is at the same time that the city is cutting back on other expenditures such as Milfoil control.

Jetskier:cool:

WOW (pun intended) fiscal irresponsibility at its best!!!!!

[Trail Goer]

This also goes to my point the city is researching the economic impact the tracks have beyond just the trail. But does it actually draw people, I 100% guarantee you that with no track the city pulls in way more than 100k in additional tax revenue.



I missed this one
Forget the city, what does the state gain by allowing the trail in place of rail? you honestly think the state would still receive the same investment in return? My understanding of the lease agreement, is that the 10% of the railroad's revenue, is on top of a regular flat rate fee the railroad already pays. The state stands to lose a lot of money if the rail disappeared. You know as well as I do, the trail will never recover any money for the state. Does the state even get any money for the trail that exist now?

[Trail Goer]

I just stumbled across this nice study and its report that was done by Alta back in 2003 from what I can gather. As we all know Alta, is the same company that has been hired again to study the same section of the railroad. $40,000 to try and convince law makers, that the trail would be a better utilization of an active railroad corridor that is still under STB control, when they in fact have a study right in front of them that shows the two can co-exist with some detours the trail will need to take. I'm at a loss of words right now.
https://www.railstotrails.org/resourcehandler.ashx?name=winnipesaukee-opechee-winnisquam-(wow)-trail-preliminary-feasibility-analysis&id=4589&fileName=WOW%20Trail%20Feasibility%20Study.pdf

[TheTimeTraveler]

I just stumbled across this nice study and its report that was done by Alta back in 2003 from what I can gather. As we all know Alta, is the same company that has been hired again to study the same section of the railroad. $40,000 to try and convince law makers, that the trail would be a better utilization of an active railroad corridor that is still under STB control, when they in fact have a study right in front of them that shows the two can co-exist with some detours the trail will need to take. I'm at a loss of words right now.
https://www.railstotrails.org/resourcehandler.ashx?name=winnipesaukee-opechee-winnisquam-(wow)-trail-preliminary-feasibility-analysis&id=4589&fileName=WOW%20Trail%20Feasibility%20Study.pdf


Our tax dollars hard at work. NOT.

[ApS]

Hi Trail Goer,

Thank you for your factual comments. I have personally talked to the owner of the New England Southern Railroad multiple times. I can tell you emphatically that he has no intent to discontinue freight service along his northern corridor (Concord to Lincoln).

You are correct that it is typically the rail carrier that owns the right of way that files for discontinuance. In this case, the taking was by the state and both the Hobo Railroad and New England Southern Railroad have licenses with the state. New England Southern is licensed with STB as a common carrier...so they also have a federal license to operate. The historical rule has been that a rail line is not formally abandoned unless it has been unused for at least 2 years.

Jetskier :cool:
Nonetheless, rails can be extended to other recreation, like "rail-biking", developed in 1909:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viSJsOUCGu4&list=LLphqjYZxxzjNbONVmY-0J7Q&index=2&t=0s

[jetskier]

This point is that this rail line is not abandoned. Note that abandonment is a formal process that relinquishes railroad use of the rail line.

[Woodsy]

I just stumbled across this nice study and its report that was done by Alta back in 2003 from what I can gather. As we all know Alta, is the same company that has been hired again to study the same section of the railroad. $40,000 to try and convince law makers, that the trail would be a better utilization of an active railroad corridor that is still under STB control, when they in fact have a study right in front of them that shows the two can co-exist with some detours the trail will need to take. I'm at a loss of words right now.
https://www.railstotrails.org/resourcehandler.ashx?name=winnipesaukee-opechee-winnisquam-(wow)-trail-preliminary-feasibility-analysis&id=4589&fileName=WOW%20Trail%20Feasibility%20Study.pdf

Do the people on the City Board know about the previous study?

Woodsy

[8gv]

In my career the folks trying to influence us had a practice we called “Vote till you get it right”.

Maybe this is “Study till you get it right”?

[tis]

In my career the folks trying to influence us had a practice we called “Vote till you get it right”.

Maybe this is “Study till you get it right”?

Or maybe just "Have them vote till you get it passed!!!" They keep trying! I can't think of a town that didn't keep trying until the voters passed it and they got what they wanted.

[Trail Goer]

Correct, they will keep trying till they get the outcome they desire but it will all come at the tax payers’ expense because last I checked the WOW trail couldn't even come up with the money on their own, like they were supposed to (yet somehow the trail will be an economic boom). It will take the tax payers to say enough, is enough but that's unlikely to happen considering the majority probably aren't aware nor care (what was the voter turnout yesterday for Laconia?). Supposedly some towns had under 20% of the registered voter turnout, so that should give you an idea of how many people don't pay attention to what's going on nor care to. It's clear this study is going to be a number crunching study vs physical infrastructure/layout study like the first one. They’re going to try and come up with facts and figures that support the trail vs rail. It's the same old scheme that is played out all over, whether it's here, New York or California. My biggest gripe is with those facts and figures; how can they come up with facts and figures? there's no user fees and they have no way to tell how many people use the trail and be able to break it down to visitors and locals. A simple survey sent out to residents and area businesses just doesn't cut it for me, yet we have a railroad that can tell you exactly how much they get for ridership every year and you know those riders are going to spend money outside of the railroad for food and what not because the majority that ride the train are not from around here.

[Woodsy]

We know that rail trails work around the country... if they weren't working at all people would not be building them. There will be some economic benefit, how much is up for debate. That being said...

The WOW trail needs to coexist with the existing railroad, just like does from Lakeport to Belmont.

The real issue here is the NIMBY folks in Southdown...


Woodsy

[8gv]

Rail trails are built through the efforts of committed supporters and government money.

That does not mean there is an ROI that exceeds that which would be derived by alternative projects.

[Trail Goer]

We know that rail trails work around the country... if they weren't working at all people would not be building them. There will be some economic benefit, how much is up for debate. That being said...

The WOW trail needs to coexist with the existing railroad, just like does from Lakeport to Belmont.

The real issue here is the NIMBY folks in Southdown...


Woodsy

Of course they work the purpose of rail trails were to make use of abandoned ones, but today trail advocates are going after active lines.

[Woodsy]

Of course they work the purpose of rail trails were to make use of abandoned ones, but today trail advocates are going after active lines.

Like I said... they need to co-exist.

This "new" study is purely political... it is driven by Alan Beetle (of Patrick's fame) and good ole Rusty McLear (of Common Man fame). Both have considerable political clout.

The railroad makes Rusty no $$$... but the rail trail might make him a few!


Woodsy

[AC2717]

Like I said... they need to co-exist.

Woodsy

I am not trying to pick a fight with you, more of a clarification, but when you say co-exist what do you mean, in the same place like side by side or just co-exist meaning two entities operating?

I would tend to lean to the side of you are saying co-exist as in side by side, why would the railroad need to do this or why would anyone have to allow them to do this?

again not a fight just clarification

[Trail Goer]

Co-exist... side by side. The problem with phase 3 is that there's not enough room for both trail and rail, like there was in phases 1 and 2. The trail can co-exist in phase 3 but in the areas where there's only room for one the trail has to make detours and construct sidewalks along streets to get around the "bottleneck areas" and there's at least 2 if not 3 sections - the causeway over Pickerel Cove, the Rte. 3 overpass (which is often referred to as the tunnel) and possibly the causeway over Chattle Cove. The trail supporters, don't want to do this for a number of reasons: money and construction cost are probably the biggest reason, others don't want the trail to venture away from the lake (more appealing to the eye vs sidewalks along streets going by buildings/houses) and last but not least, some just don't want to see the big noisy train anymore. Then you have the issue with Southdown where they don't want the trail to be built period and want the track and train to stay.

[joey2665]

Co-exist... side by side. The problem with phase 3 is that there's not enough room for both trail and rail, like there was in phases 1 and 2. The trail can co-exist in phase 3 but in the areas where there's only room for one the trail has to make detours and construct sidewalks along streets to get around the "bottleneck areas" and there's at least 2 if not 3 sections - the causeway over Pickerel Cove, the Rte. 3 overpass (which is often referred to as the tunnel) and possibly the causeway over Chattle Cove. The trail supporters, don't want to do this for a number of reasons: money and construction cost are probably the biggest reason, others don't want the trail to venture away from the lake (more appealing to the eye vs sidewalks along streets going by buildings/houses) and last but not least, some just don't want to see the big noisy train anymore. Then you have the issue with Southdown where they don't want the trail to be built period and want the track and train to stay.

All great points. I would love for them to exist together. If you can get SD and LB to sit down and come up with an acceptable esthetically pleasing fence instead of an ugly chain link maybe it would work. I don’t and never will by the crime argument and if done correctly will increase the value of property is SD/LB. I am speaking as a 10+ year owner in both communities.


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[jetskier]

The real issue is that there is a significant cost difference between building a trail adjacent to the existing rail line vs. replacing the existing rail line. The fencing alone will be somewhere between $.5M to $5M depending. In addition, there are retaining walls, drainage, bridges etc... Plus there are pinch points requiring passage across private property. There is grading, filling, paving etc... $$$$$$$$$$$$

So, the game afoot right now is to try to replace the railroad with the WOW trail. That is what the study is all about. The city is going to try to justify this by showing that the trail will provide a greater economic gain than the railroad. That is the intent of the $40k study. However, there are still 4 active railroads on this rail line and businesses that rely on rail service. It is difficult to see how extending the trail will create a significant economic benefit especially if the trail replaces the rail line as there is virtually nothing commercial along this route.

In addition, the city has just approved a plan to build a sport center on rt 106 and the alternate route for the WOW trail that has been proposed multiple times would have the advantage of being able to connect directly with that facility. The owner of a restaurant along the proposed alternate route has offered land for parking and a welcome center. Seems like a better way to go vs. trying to replace the rail line.

Jetskier :cool:

[joey2665]

I know it means not getting the federal funding but if part of the trail can be along the lake where are you could be cost-effective and the other part one along route 106 to avoid the bridge near pickerel pond and other hazards areas such as the tunnel I think I would be a great compromise. Maybe re-connect to the lake just passed Aquamarina up into Meredith


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[jetskier]

Hi Joey2665,

Federal funding is not contingent upon building along or over the railway. Money that is allocated by the Fed to New Hampshire for alternative transportation is disbursed by DOT to projects as they see fit. I would be surprised if DOT were to allocate money to the WOW trail based upon replacing the rail line.

Just saying.

Jetskier :cool:

[Woodsy]

NH DOT can allocate the money without the need for replacing the existing railroad... Replacing the existing railroad just makes the construction costs way cheaper.

I do not see the STB, the NH DOT or the Railroad companies allowing the track to be torn up...

The WOW folks need to coexist...

Woodsy

[Trail Goer]

Getting back to beating on a dead horse here!
For those in favor of the trail and who have zero regard for the railroad, this is what must be done for the rails to pulled up (see link). The railroad line up in Littleton, NH hasn't seen a train on those tracks since 1998 and it took the New Hampshire Central Railroad, up until about 2 years ago, to file a discontinuance with the STB, to remove themselves of common carrier obligations and remove themselves of a lease agreement with the state, before the state could even petition for abandonment. It's going to be an awfully tall order (if not impossible) to get the tracks shut down to build phase 3 in place of the tracks. Alta's study was supposed to wrap up at the end of April, I'm eagerly waiting to see the results of their winter long study. I imagine it will be any day now when the study is submitted to the city of Laconia.
https://www.stb.gov/decisions/readingroom.nsf/9855c1fb354da09b85257f1f000b5f79/c9c995e8ccdeda2a852583ef004bd92f?OpenDocument

[Trail Goer]

The city of Laconia, has yet to go public with results from Alta's study, that they preformed over the winter. Much to my surprise however, I just came across this article that sheds light on a study that the railroad paid for. If the city ever decides to release the results of the study, one should be able to compare both.

"An analysis says the Hobo & Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad in New Hampshire accounts for more than $17.4 million in total economic impact annually."


https://www.visitwhitemountains.com/press/economic-study-reveals-importance-of-local-tourist-railroad-to-regional-economy

[joey2665]

I said it before and will day it again. They will never dismantle the railroad and the only way for the WOW Trail to proceed with the next phase is for the trail and rail co coexist.


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[Outdoorsman]

The city of Laconia, has yet to go public with results from Alta's study, that they preformed over the winter. Much to my surprise however, I just came across this article that sheds light on a study that the railroad paid for. If the city ever decides to release the results of the study, one should be able to compare both.

"An analysis says the Hobo & Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad in New Hampshire accounts for more than $17.4 million in total economic impact annually."


https://www.visitwhitemountains.com/press/economic-study-reveals-importance-of-local-tourist-railroad-to-regional-economy

Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?

From the same article:
$17.4 million dollars in total economic impact annually, and affects the equivalent of nearly 380 full and part time jobs in the restaurant, lodging, hospitality and retail sectors.

Are we to believe that these trains are the sole reason the tourist/passengers visited the area? They made the reservations, booked their rooms etc. simply to come here and ride the hobo?

I did my own study many years ago.... The results.... 100% of "studies" are biased. Including mine of course! :rolleye1:

[joey2665]

Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?

From the same article:

Are we to believe that these trains are the sole reason the tourist/passengers visited the area? They made the reservations, booked their rooms etc. simply to come here and ride the hobo?

I did my own study many years ago.... The results.... 100% of "studies" are biased. Including mine of course! :rolleye1:

That is not what the study says. It’s is saying what the 17.4 million equates too, not that it created those or is the sole reason those jobs exist.

However I do agree all studies do have some degree of bias.


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[Outdoorsman]

That is not what the study says. It’s is saying what the 17.4 million equates too, not that it created those or is the sole reason those jobs exist.

However I do agree all studies do have some degree of bias.


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The study in that article says:
The Railroad, which operates excursions from Lincoln, Meredith & Weirs Beach, New Hampshire, accounts for more than $17.4 million dollars in total economic impact annually, and affects the equivalent of nearly 380 full and part time jobs in the restaurant, lodging, hospitality and retail sectors.


So, you are saying that it "equates to", but the published article says "accounts for".... BIG difference.

[joey2665]

The study in that article says:
The Railroad, which operates excursions from Lincoln, Meredith & Weirs Beach, New Hampshire, accounts for more than $17.4 million dollars in total economic impact annually, and affects the equivalent of nearly 380 full and part time jobs in the restaurant, lodging, hospitality and retail sectors.


So, you are saying that it "equates to", but the published article says "accounts for".... BIG difference.

Yes it accounts for 17.4 million to the economy which equates to 350 jobs, it did not create or is not the reason these jobs are maintained. It’s just saying 27.4 million equals about 350 jobs as a comparison


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[Outdoorsman]

Yes it accounts for 17.4 million to the economy which equates to 350 jobs, it did not create or is not the reason these jobs are maintained. It’s just saying 27.4 million equals about 350 jobs as a comparison


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Nice job, stripping my quote/comments to make your point "feel" stronger! Very Conservative of you. :look::look:

[joey2665]

Nice job, stripping my quote/comments to make your point "feel" stronger! Very Conservative of you. :look::look:

Thank you very much I appreciate the compliment [emoji4]


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[Outdoorsman]

Thank you very much I appreciate the compliment [emoji4]


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Well I am aware that you are the "BE-ALL-END-ALL" of every discussion on this forum. So, carry on with your bad self. :rolleye1:

[joey2665]

Well I am aware that you are the "BE-ALL-END-ALL" of every discussion on this forum. So, carry on with your bad self. :rolleye1:

What in God’s good earth are you talking about? We are not allowed to read and interpret a study and come up with different conclusions.

Oh I see we all have to agree with you, I’m sorry your interpretation is correct and I am wrong please forgive me.

I just do not understand why people cannot agree to disagree and move on.


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[Trail Goer]

Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?

From the same article:

Are we to believe that these trains are the sole reason the tourist/passengers visited the area? They made the reservations, booked their rooms etc. simply to come here and ride the hobo?

I did my own study many years ago.... The results.... 100% of "studies" are biased. Including mine of course! :rolleye1:

We will have to wait for the city to release their study, which we all know will be in favor of the WOW Trail, so let's not kid ourselves. The railroad did the right thing though, it will be up to one's own interpretation of both studies to draw their own conclusion.

[joey2665]

Article in Concord Monitor

https://www.concordmonitor.com/Basch-Scenic-WOW-trail-in-Lakes-Region-a-must-see-for-riders-25343268


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[Trail Goer]

There will be a public meeting next week on Wednesday 9/25 at the Guilford Public Library, from 6pm to 8pm to discuss the WOW Trail phase 3 expansion. I guess the city of Laconia, will be getting more than what they bargained for because the state jumped at the opportunity to have the entire state studied by Alta and have been and will be holding meetings for each region of the state.
See the link for more info.
https://nhpedbikeplan.com/

[joey2665]

There will be a public meeting next week on Wednesday 9/25 at the Guilford Public Library, from 6pm to 8pm to discuss the WOW Trail phase 3 expansion. I guess the city of Laconia, will be getting more than what they bargained for because the state jumped at the opportunity to have the entire state studied by Alta and have been and will be holding meetings for each region of the state.
See the link for more info.
https://nhpedbikeplan.com/

Thank you for the update. Looks like it is going to get very interesting

[macbeth]

Big meeting tonight, is anyone going? I was planning to be there till my wife won tickets for tonight's Bruins game. Only preseason but if anyone here knows hockey, then you know how completive preseason NHL hockey actually is with players fighting for roster spots.

I will not be. I feel it's a Total waste of resources. More people feel this way but are afraid to speak their mind. Please stop the WOW trail in it's place. Stop throwing money out the window.

[Trail Goer]

I guess I deleted my last post. Anyways, just remember "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", so people who are against the wow trail for one reason or another cannot stay silent, you can be rest assured the supporters will be loud and will fight hard, the same scenario has been played out in every state for the past 20 years and there have been dire consequence because people stayed silent (railroads have been put out of business for the soul purpose of building a trail). Going back to the 1970 and 80's the history of the rail trail and its main purpose was to make use of railroad right of ways that were no longer used by the railroads, but that all change some 20+ years ago when they started going after active rail lines under government ownership (local, county or state) and rail trail supports are getting what they want because people on the other side are staying silent.

[thinkxingu]

My daughter and I rode the Nashua rail trail last week. Five miles out, ice cream and a rest on the green, five miles back. Awesome exercise, awesome time with my daughter. Sure wish we had one closer than 20 minutes away.

Happy Saturday, all!

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[joey2665]

Done properly with the railroad and the trail coexisting with an esthetically pleasing barrier between the 2 would be a great asset to the towns local businesses and residents.


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[thinkxingu]

Done properly with the railroad and the trail coexisting with an esthetically pleasing barrier between the 2 would be a great asset to the towns local businesses and residents.


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[TiltonBB]

From the Laconia Sun:

Alta Planning calculated a net total benefit of a completed trail over a 20-year period of between $67 million and $89 million.


https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/study-finds-cost-benefits-for-replacing-rail-with-wow-trail/article_eaef1ba4-ef8f-11e9-b78f-abac20c916d8.html#utm_source=laconiadailysun.com&utm_campaign=%2Fnewsletters%2Flists%2Fheadlines%2F wednesday%2F%3F-dc%3D1571218210&utm_medium=email&utm_content=read%20more

[Major]

I nearly fell out of my seat laughing! I guess if you're going to go big, you should go real big. I wonder how the former owners of the Holy Grail feel about this estimate, or the dying businesses downtown?

One other point caught my eye. We frequent the Long Bay beach quite a bit, and noticed that this past year there were a lot of riders on the train. It was really noticeable. Certainly not a scientific observation, but I highly doubt there has been a 30% rider decrease the last 4 years.

[joey2665]

I nearly fell out of my seat laughing! I guess if you're going to go big, you should go real big. I wonder how the former owners of the Holy Grail feel about this estimate, or the dying businesses downtown?

One other point caught my eye. We frequent the Long Bay beach quite a bit, and noticed that this past year there were a lot of riders on the train. It was really noticeable. Certainly not a scientific observation, but I highly doubt there has been a 30% rider decrease the last 4 years.

I certainly agree with you observation of the rail riders. Too me it also has looked more crowded than in the past.

I do disagree with your downtown business observation using the Holy Grail. They had many issues including food quality, service and over spending on the renovation. I have a Resturant tenant in that area and they are doing quit well.


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[Major]

I certainly agree with you observation of the rail riders. Too me it also has looked more crowded than in the past.

I do disagree with your downtown business observation using the Holy Grail. They had many issues including food quality, service and over spending on the renovation. I have a Resturant tenant in that area and they are doing quit well.

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I agree about the Holy Grail. However, my point is that the WOW trail, as far as I could tell, went by the Holy Grail. One would think that the huge influx of people using the WOW trail, as represented by its proponents, would have mitigated the issues with the Holy Grail. You know and I know that the users of the WOW trail have absolutely no impact on the downtown businesses. Laconia is not a destination city.

[Major]

I have a Resturant tenant in that area and they are doing quit well.[/url]

Do you mind sharing the name of the restaurant? You might as well get a free plug!

[Patofnaud]

From the Laconia Sun:

Alta Planning calculated a net total benefit of a completed trail over a 20-year period of between $67 million and $89 million.


https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/study-finds-cost-benefits-for-replacing-rail-with-wow-trail/article_eaef1ba4-ef8f-11e9-b78f-abac20c916d8.html#utm_source=laconiadailysun.com&utm_campaign=%2Fnewsletters%2Flists%2Fheadlines%2F wednesday%2F%3F-dc%3D1571218210&utm_medium=email&utm_content=read%20more

A very bias report. While they cite 6M in local revenue generated by the trail, they only cite the 1M in ticket sales by the RR and totally ignored the revenue from all those train riders to Weirs/Merideth.

Anytime the Mount of the Train is running the boulevard is lined with folks shopping/eating/sightseeing/paying for parking/etc....

Also, it's bad when you scrub assets from reality to serve a small vocal crowd. Once it's gone, it's gone. Summer Camps, Trains, Amusement Parks, all things you tell your grandkids about but they never will get to experience. But boy that condo complex and storage facility looks great. :rolleye1:

[joey2665]

Do you mind sharing the name of the restaurant? You might as well get a free plug!

Sorry I would rather not as it obviously would fill everyone in on the building I own and I'd rather it be anonymous. Let's just say it is not far at all from where the Holy Grail was located

[joey2665]

I agree about the Holy Grail. However, my point is that the WOW trail, as far as I could tell, went by the Holy Grail. One would think that the huge influx of people using the WOW trail, as represented by its proponents, would have mitigated the issues with the Holy Grail. You know and I know that the users of the WOW trail have absolutely no impact on the downtown businesses. Laconia is not a destination city.

Laconia can be a destination city but let's leave that as there is a lot involved and to debate about.

I do agree that the WOW trail would not help restaurants in the downtown area. The main users of the trail are people exercising and I do not see bikers joggers and the like stopping in the middle of their workout to eat. Kind of defeats the purpose. :laugh:

However I should state that and as I have said multiple times, I am in favor of the WOW Trail under certain circumstances such as it coexisting with the Scenic Railroad, SD/LB, aesthetically pleasing fencing along the way and without a doubt it must be completed with PRIVATE money via donations, advertising, fundraising and the like NOT public money.

[Major]

Sorry I would rather not as it obviously would fill everyone in on the building I own and I'd rather it be anonymous. Let's just say it is not far at all from where the Holy Grail was located

I figured it out! My parents went there last week and spoke highly of the new owners and updated space. The food was good too! Good luck!

[joey2665]

I figured it out! My parents went there last week and spoke highly of the new owners and updated space. The food was good too! Good luck!

ding ding ding :) There are more upgrades to come also.

[Trail Goer]

Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?

So Outdoorsman, I now reverse the question back to you. What do you have to say about the gleaming report that all but lays down a red carpet with rose pedal for the WOW Trail?

[macbeth]

So Outdoorsman, I now reverse the question back to you. What do you have to say about the gleaming report that all but lays down a red carpet with rose pedal for the WOW Trail?

And now I reverse the question back to you. Please answer his question.

[LongBay]

A very bias report. While they cite 6M in local revenue generated by the trail, they only cite the 1M in ticket sales by the RR and totally ignored the revenue from all those train riders to Weirs/Merideth.

Anytime the Mount of the Train is running the boulevard is lined with folks shopping/eating/sightseeing/paying for parking/etc....

Also, it's bad when you scrub assets from reality to serve a small vocal crowd. Once it's gone, it's gone. Summer Camps, Trains, Amusement Parks, all things you tell your grandkids about but they never will get to experience. But boy that condo complex and storage facility looks great. :rolleye1:

Your absolutely right and the City of Laconia should not pay for the study which us taxpayers paid for. They should make the WOW trail organization pony up and pay the bill.

[TiltonBB]

It looks like there is significant support from the Laconia City Council.

The Laconia Mayor says “The thing that galls us is that this is a public right of way owned by the people of New Hampshire that runs right through the city and it is horribly under-utilized.”

Council member Hamel said. “A lot of good things have been happening in Laconia lately and this could be one more of these attractions that will bring people to the Lakes Region.”

From The Laconia Sun:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/wow-trail-backers-look-to-pick-up-steam/article_8e332f6c-f058-11e9-930a-ef70bd807e04.html

[baygo]

I figured it out! My parents went there last week and spoke highly of the new owners and updated space. The food was good too! Good luck!

New owners? That narrows it down to two places. I haven’t noticed any improvements at the Laconia Local Eatery, so that leaves a place that’s been around over 30 years.

[Major]

It looks like there is significant support from the Laconia City Council.

The Laconia Mayor says “The thing that galls us is that this is a public right of way owned by the people of New Hampshire that runs right through the city and it is horribly under-utilized.”

Council member Hamel said. “A lot of good things have been happening in Laconia lately and this could be one more of these attractions that will bring people to the Lakes Region.”

From The Laconia Sun:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/wow-trail-backers-look-to-pick-up-steam/article_8e332f6c-f058-11e9-930a-ef70bd807e04.html

You know what galls me, wasting taxpayer money on the Colonial Theater. Wasting taxpayer money on a BS study, where the outcome was obviously predetermined. The revenue numbers are laughable. The construction numbers seem low.

[joey2665]

New owners? That narrows it down to two places. I haven’t noticed any improvements at the Laconia Local Eatery, so that leaves a place that’s been around over 30 years.



[emoji4][emoji4][emoji4][emoji4]


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[fatlazyless]

So, if I were to go there today, to the railroad tracks atop the embankment in the vicinity of South Down Shore, accessed via either the Paugus Bay Marina or by the Hilliard Rd-pickerel cove area ..... would I be able to walk along .....or ride a mountain bike ..... along side the tracks on the hard pack soil path that currently exists?

Is it legal as long as you stay close to the unused railroad tracks, and does anyone now use it for daily walking or bicycling? In the winter, the railroad tracks gets used by snowmobiles as a sno-mo trail.

If you are reasonably attired, and do not look like a young male homeless person, can one walk along the state owned railroad embankment with expectation of no interaction such as a local resident complaining about you to the police and the police showing up, or what?

[Woodsy]

FLL...

Because the railroad corridor is considered "Active - Expect a train at any time" if you were walking down the tracks (regardless of how you are dressed) it would be considered trespassing by the LPD. Sometime in December (its usually in the Sun) the tracks are listed as "Temporarily Inactive - No Train" and open for use by snowmobiles.

Woodsy

[fatlazyless]

Despite what you say ..... are there any locals who use the worn path for daily walks .... just because it's there and close to where they live ..... or is it a hard and fast rule that anyone on the path, be they a 9-year old, or an 89-year old .... out for a walk along the lake, on a flat path, about six feet above the water .... gets a police visit that was phoned in by a nearby observer ..... even though the train has stopped running now till next June?

[Trail Goer]

And now I reverse the question back to you. Please answer his question.

I did, see above so what are you getting at?

[Trail Goer]

The Laconia Mayor says “The thing that galls us is that this is a public right of way owned by the people of New Hampshire that runs right through the city and it is horribly under-utilized.”

From The Laconia Sun:

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/wow-trail-backers-look-to-pick-up-steam/article_8e332f6c-f058-11e9-930a-ef70bd807e04.html

This is where the facts get skewed, it's "not a public right of way", it's a railroad right of way owned by the state. There's a big difference.

Another one they keep referring to is: NHDOT, telling the city that "rail takes priority" as a "state law", there's no state law that I can find and I've looked for it. What the state is referring to, is its obligation to abide by common carrier regulations that they agreed to when they purchased the line from the railroad. Like everything else rail related, the states purchase had to be approved by the then Interstate Commerce Commission (long since dissolved by the government) and now under the STB.

[Woodsy]

Trailgoer....

This is the RSA that covers it....

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-hampshire/2016/title-xx/chapter-228/section-228-60-a

Woodsy

[Trail Goer]

Thank you for the correction. I've never heard or seen that website before, I was on the actual State of New Hampshire revised statues page and I was striking out. I found lots of railroad related stuff but nothing that I was looking for.

[macbeth]

I did, see above so what are you getting at?

Well, I guess you did, must have missed it. My bad !!:)

[fatlazyless]

Riding in a large, old railroad passenger car, built maybe in the 1950's and watching the scenery is what happens with the Winnipesaukee RR, which runs in the summer months.

REMOVING the single line of rail road TRACKS from the Meredith-Laconia-Belmont-Tilton state owned shoreline embankment and constructing in its' place a 10' or 12' wide, walking, running, bicycling, non-motorized TRAIL, paved with beige colored pebble gravel would be a totally super-duper, year-2020, public health and tourist visitor improvement.

That rail road, summer tourist passenger train is so last century, so 19th century .... while people are living longer, and staying active into their old age ...... thanks to staying active with walking, running and bicycling.

That passenger train basically does nothing for nobody, while a walking-running-pedaling shoreline trail is the way to go.

If you enjoy sitting there and watching the scenery, you can always go drive your car on a scenic tour ...... but a walking trail is so much more healthy for a tourist area happening thing to do.

Lose the train ..... and, go pedal a bicycle! When you is too old to pedal, use a cane ...... walking along with a cane beats the pants off taking that ugly train …. and, ditto that for an ambulatory care walker ….walking along the wow trail when you is age-99 and needing a walker:banana: will also beat the pants off taking that ugly train ride.

[Trail Goer]

So you're okay with putting the Plymouth & Lincoln Railroad, the Lafayette Dinner train and the Lincoln Railroad shops out of business, just so you can have a trail? You sound self centered. The Clark family who owns the railroad and a family who has a done a lot to boost tourism in this state and a family who has created jobs for people, has stated in the report that losing the Winnipesaukee Scenic, would put the whole railroad out of business. How do you look someone in the face and tell them they're losing their job, just so you can have a trail?

[joey2665]

So you're okay with putting the Plymouth & Lincoln Railroad, the Lafayette Dinner train and the Lincoln Railroad shops out of business, just so you can have a trail? You sound self centered. The Clark family who owns the railroad and a family who has a done a lot to boost tourism in this state and a family who has created jobs for people, has stated in the report that losing the Winnipesaukee Scenic, would put the whole railroad out of business. How do you look someone in the face and tell them they're losing their job, just so you can have a trail?

The Clark family are wonderful people with a first class operation that takes good care of their employees. I would hate to see anything detrimental happen to their business that has done nothing but promote the state and bring in tourists. Given the choice I would pick the rail everytime.

There has to be an amicable way for both to coexist it does not have to be one or the other and again PRIVATE funds not public

[LongBay]

It's interesting how the WOW Report, by the way was paid by the taxpayers of Laconia, failed to properly net out the loss of revenue due to closing down the railroads.

I like riding trains, planes and automobiles. I also like walking, hiking and skiing on trails. It appears there are a lot more miles of trails in the local area to enjoy than miles of railroads. So tell me, why exactly do we need more trails when the NH state, county and town administrators say they don't have enough money to properly fund the existing infrastructure. And why should taxpayers in Laconia be forced to pay for more trails when there are plenty to use right now. Folks just need to ask any outdoor enthusiast who lives here and he or she will be more than happy to tell you where they can be found.

[fatlazyless]

So, why would removing the tracks on the Lake Winnipesaukee embankment effect the railroad operations, the Hobo and Clarke's, up north in Lincoln? The distance between Laconia and Lincoln is about a one hour automobile, road drive, and maybe 45-miles road distance with separate businesses that are unrelated with no paying passengers traveling on a train on the railroad tracks from Lincoln to Laconia, or vise-versa.

There's a mountain short line railroad in North Conway and Bartlett that is separate from the Winni RR in Laconia, and removing the Winni RR tracks would have zero effect on that railroad, the Conway Scenic, up north. And, ditto that for the Cog Railroad that parallels the Jewell hiking trail on the west side of Mt Washington.

Very little of anything in NH, including people or freight moves by rail. Everything moves by car or by truck.

Removing the shoreline railroad tracks, and replacing it with a walking/bicycle path would be a great, local user improvement for Laconia, Meredith, and Belmont.

Lose the tracks, and build a walking/biking trail on the shoreline railroad embankment along Lake Winnipesaukee.

Peddling a bicycle is a healthy exercise that empowers people, while riding a slow moving train and looking at the scenery is good for some locations, but not so good for Lake Winnipesaukee. Biking and walking beats a train ride along the lake ..... even in a summer rain!

Here's the twelve mile long, sand colored, hard packed sand and small pea gravel www.cottonvalleyrailtrail.org in Wolfeboro and to the east through Brookfield and Wakefield..... a railroad line where the rr tracks were removed in some spots and left in place in others, along the twelve miles..... and replaced with a walking and bicycling "rail trail" ...... suggest you look at the photos and picture a similar trail running along Paugus Bay, Weirs Bay, and Meredith Bay on the railroad embankment ...... it makes a beautiful picture for what could be, here, on Lake Winnipesaukee.

[SAMIAM]

Any reason people couldn't walk on sidewalks?There are many beautiful quiet neighborhoods that are perfect for walking

[baygo]

This is a possible alternative to public finance of the trail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbWg-mozGsU&feature=share

[joey2665]

This is a possible alternative to public finance of the trail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbWg-mozGsU&feature=share

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]. One great movie that would never be made today. [emoji33]


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[tis]

Good idea, Baygo.

Everybody wants all these things because they don't pay for them. That's why our taxes are so high. People have their own little pet project.

[Trail Goer]

So, why would removing the tracks on the Lake Winnipesaukee embankment effect the railroad operations, the Hobo and Clarke's, up north in Lincoln? The distance between Laconia and Lincoln is about a one hour automobile, road drive, and maybe 45-miles road distance with separate businesses that are unrelated with no paying passengers traveling on a train on the railroad tracks from Lincoln to Laconia, or vise-versa.

There's a mountain short line railroad in North Conway and Bartlett that is separate from the Winni RR in Laconia, and removing the Winni RR tracks would have zero effect on that railroad, the Conway Scenic, up north. And, ditto that for the Cog Railroad that parallels the Jewell hiking trail on the west side of Mt Washington.

Very little of anything in NH, including people or freight moves by rail. Everything moves by car or by truck.

Removing the shoreline railroad tracks, and replacing it with a walking/bicycle path would be a great, local user improvement for Laconia, Meredith, and Belmont.

Lose the tracks, and build a walking/biking trail on the shoreline railroad embankment along Lake Winnipesaukee.

Peddling a bicycle is a healthy exercise that empowers people, while riding a slow moving train and looking at the scenery is good for some locations, but not so good for Lake Winnipesaukee. Biking and walking beats a train ride along the lake ..... even in a summer rain!

Here's the twelve mile long, sand colored, hard packed sand and small pea gravel www.cottonvalleyrailtrail.org in Wolfeboro and to the east through Brookfield and Wakefield..... a railroad line where the rr tracks were removed in some spots and left in place in others, along the twelve miles..... and replaced with a walking and bicycling "rail trail" ...... suggest you look at the photos and picture a similar trail running along Paugus Bay, Weirs Bay, and Meredith Bay on the railroad embankment ...... it makes a beautiful picture for what could be, here, on Lake Winnipesaukee.

Are you just going to ignore the fact that there's a railroad shop in Lincoln that depends on this rail line for business. They do a lot of work for other railroads and private rail car owners. One of the biggest clients is the MBTA commuter rail. Every year they have work coming in and finished product going out. They just took in another shipment a week or two ago. So some person that makes their living supporting their family working at the Lincoln Shops, your okay with killing their job just so you can have your trail. Go walk somewhere else then, the rail line is active, what part of that do you not understand?

[joey2665]

Are you just going to ignore the fact that there's a railroad shop in Lincoln that depends on this rail line for business. They do a lot of work for other railroads and private rail car owners. One of the biggest clients is the MBTA commuter rail. Every year they have work coming in and finished product going out. They just took in another shipment a week or two ago. So some person that makes their living supporting their family working at the Lincoln Shops, your okay with killing their job just so you can have your trail. Go walk somewhere else then, the rail line is active, what part of that do you not understand?

Don’t bother he is just being his usual antagonistic self. I don’t think he believes 90% of his posts.


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[Wifi-1]

Don’t bother he is just being his usual antagonistic self. I don’t think he believes 90% of his posts.


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We hope so, at least :)

[fatlazyless]

So, with the Hobo Railroad railroad car, repair business in Lincoln NH, that has the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority for its' biggest customer, the tracks that run along Paugus Bay in Laconia are a go or no-go rail link between the two?

And, there's no other way for railroad cars to get to Lincoln NH from Massachusetts, such as through Vermont, up the Connecticut River?

Would a railroad car fit on an 8 1/2' x 48' flat bed, truck trailer? How big is a railroad car?

[TheTimeTraveler]

So, with the Hobo Railroad railroad car, repair business in Lincoln NH, that has the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority for its' biggest customer, the tracks that run along Paugus Bay in Laconia are a go or no-go rail link between the two?

And, there's no other way for railroad cars to get to Lincoln NH from Massachusetts, such as through Vermont, up the Connecticut River?

Would a railroad car fit on an 8 1/2' x 48' flat bed, truck trailer? How big is a railroad car?

Railroad coaches can be moved via the road, however the logistics and expense of doing so are much more cumbersome.

It is costly and far more labor intensive.

[Trail Goer]

So, with the Hobo Railroad railroad car, repair business in Lincoln NH, that has the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority for its' biggest customer, the tracks that run along Paugus Bay in Laconia are a go or no-go rail link between the two?

And, there's no other way for railroad cars to get to Lincoln NH from Massachusetts, such as through Vermont, up the Connecticut River?

Would a railroad car fit on an 8 1/2' x 48' flat bed, truck trailer? How big is a railroad car?

There's only one railroad connection to the shops in Lincoln, the other connection that came down from Woodsville, NH via Plymouth, NH has been gone for decades. I work in the transportation industry and I can tell you shipping railroad cars over the road would be cost prohibitive for them, it would make their rates non competitive. Moving railroad equipment requires ODL permits and possibly require escorts depending on what it is they are hauling, there's also road restrictions as most roads can't handle the length and size and most bridges and culverts, can't handle the weight.

[Barney Bear]

I believe that the subway cars from Bombardier in Canada, are partially assembled in the USA to satisfy the Buy America requirement for a Federal subsidy, and then delivered to Boston by rail. 🐻

[map]

My concern about the extension of the WOW trail to The Weirs, besides the destruction of the train tracks, would be the possibility of drawing the rif raf from downtown into the area, thus increasing crime.

[WinnisquamZ]

My concern about the extension of the WOW trail to The Weirs, besides the destruction of the train tracks, would be the possibility of drawing the rif raf from downtown into the area, thus increasing crime.

Why must the rif raf as you call them be restricted to downtown the whole city should be able to enjoy their presence and the value each brings to the community! Just as the city council intended


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[map]

Why must the rif raf as you call them be restricted to downtown the whole city should be able to enjoy their presence and the value each brings to the community! Just as the city council intended


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Ha ha ha ha ha!

[joey2665]

My concern about the extension of the WOW trail to The Weirs, besides the destruction of the train tracks, would be the possibility of drawing the rif raf from downtown into the area, thus increasing crime.

The rif raf do not need the trail they already walk down the tracks.


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[map]

The rif raf do not need the trail they already walk down the tracks.


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Good point. I didn’t think of that.

[Mr. V]

The "rif raf" you guys are snidely disparaging are presumably "locals" who for whatever reason never got got traction in their lives.

Might it not be best to focus on inclusion as opposed to exclusion?

"The poor you will always have with you:" --- J. Christ

One earmark of a truly enlightened society is how its advantaged members treat its disadvantaged members.

Just sayin'.

[joey2665]

Good point. I didn’t think of that.

I had a home in Long Bay for 12 years and it was broken into by such rif raf that entered the community from the tracks. Not only did they steal the tv and computer they are all the food in the fridge.

This is why in many WOW Trail discussions I always disagreed with the argument that the trail would provide easier access. They already have easy access.

[Major]

I had a home in Long Bay for 12 years and it was broken into by such rif raf that entered the community from the tracks. Not only did they steal the tv and computer they are all the food in the fridge.

This is why in many WOW Trail discussions I always disagreed with the argument that the trail would provide easier access. They already have easy access.

But you have to admit a paved trail will make it somewhat easier, right? The tracks are kind of a pain to walk on. Plus, they’re nearly impossible to bike on.


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[joey2665]

But you have to admit a paved trail will make it somewhat easier, right? The tracks are kind of a pain to walk on. Plus, they’re nearly impossible to bike on.


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My experience with these people is if there is a will there is a way. Paved or not.


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[fatlazyless]

90-inches ....... width of Ford police suv including outside mirrors


54.5-inches ....... width across railroad rails


144-inches or 12-feet ...... width of highway lane on Route 93

...............

So the wow trail could be a 10' (120") or 12' (144") wide road in order to fit the police cars, and fire trucks which are wider at 104" plus mirrors. Fire trucks are close to 10' wide with their mirrors.
...............

There's simply no way the wow trail can get built without removing the railroad tracks, so the wow trail is a dead issue. It's pretty simple, there's not enough width, there, with the railroad tracks remaining in place.

If people want to tour the shoreline, they should get a jetski, and do it at 45-mph with no worry about hitting a homeless person who is trespass walking down the railroad tracks.
..............

How's this sound for a battle cry coming from the neighbors with homes close to Paugus Bay and the railroad embankment: 54.5" or fight! ..... (say it loud!) ...... a reference to the rails which are 54.5" across ...... much better living with the 54.5" rails .... than living with a 120" wide, rail trail ..... 54.5" or fight! ....... hooo-yuuh! .... :laugh:

Sort of sounds like ..... the 54 40 battle cry for the 1844 Oregon boundary dispute .... or something!

And, wood railroad ties are usually about 8'6" long x 9" wide x 7" high, so removing the rail road tracks and rail road ties would free up 8'6" of nice flat compacted surface area and go a long way to facilitate a ten foot wide rail trail. Today, everything moves on inflated rubber tires as opposed to steel train wheels. Steel train wheels started going out of use in the Unites States, a hundred years ago, and got replaced by cars and trucks with rubber inflated tires.

Lose those ugly train tracks, and build a rail trail for walking, running, pedaling, and using those four legged, ambulatory care walkers with the tennis balls for feet.

If a new rail trail were constructed to be same width as a highway lane, 12', then it certainly seems that a guided tour, trolley tour bus vehicle could be used to function similar to the Winni Railroad and replace the large railroad cars with a Winni trolley bus tour that seats about 25-people per bus and driven/informed by the driver similar to the duck tour boats. Or, possibly going with duck tour boats as well ..... a 12' wide rail trail really opens the Winni waterfront to a lot of new uses.

[8gv]

Regarding the access of evil doers via tracks vs via WOW Trail:

Either route is easy but if one's presence on the tracks were to be questioned any answer would still be illegal with the exception of the designated crossings.

One's presence on the WOW Trail could easily be explained away by "we are taking a walk".

I either case carrying a TV down the ROW might arouse some extra suspicion.

[map]

The "rif raf" you guys are snidely disparaging are presumably "locals" who for whatever reason never got got traction in their lives.

Might it not be best to focus on inclusion as opposed to exclusion?

"The poor you will always have with you:" --- J. Christ

One earmark of a truly enlightened society is how its advantaged members treat its disadvantaged members.

Just sayin'.

Ummm- no. We are talking about drug dealers and addicts and criminals. Not simply people of lesser means. You can "include" all those criminals at your place. I don't want them at mine.

[joey2665]

The "rif raf" you guys are snidely disparaging are presumably "locals" who for whatever reason never got got traction in their lives.

Might it not be best to focus on inclusion as opposed to exclusion?

"The poor you will always have with you:" --- J. Christ

One earmark of a truly enlightened society is how its advantaged members treat its disadvantaged members.

Just sayin'.

Local or not doesn’t matter we are talking about criminals and addicts not just the poor homeless or unemployed.

Maybe if 3 of these rif raf walked off the railroad tracks broke in stole and damaged your home like they did to me you might think differently.


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[Mr. V]

Local or not doesn’t matter we are talking about criminals and addicts not just the poor homeless or unemployed. Maybe if 3 of these rif raf walked off the railroad tracks broke in stole and damaged your home like they did to me you might think differently. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd certainly want to prosecute and punish anyone, from any background, who burglarized my home: that is inexcusable behavior by anyone, whoever they are.

But that's not the issue.

The issue is how you and others here are singling out, judging, and condemning a class of your fellow Americans based upon fear and quasi-hysteria, ala Fox News.

Sure, many addicts are criminals, but not all are; just as many non-addicts, folks from privileged backgrounds, turn to crime.

Criminal behavior cuts across all socio-economic lines: always has, always will.

No,the WOW trail isn't the real problem: our society and its failure to engage all of its members is the problem.

You want to end homelessness, end addiction?

Give people meaning and something to live for.

Easy to say, hard to do, but that is what it would take.

[Major]

The "rif raf" you guys are snidely disparaging are presumably "locals" who for whatever reason never got got traction in their lives.

Might it not be best to focus on inclusion as opposed to exclusion?

"The poor you will always have with you:" --- J. Christ

One earmark of a truly enlightened society is how its advantaged members treat its disadvantaged members.

Just sayin'.

Exactly how does inclusion work? I love it when liberals cite or refer to Jesus, all while trying to completely remove religion from society to create the perfect secular state. Plus your quote is completely misguided. There is a huge difference between being poor and being a drug dealer and a drug user. My grandparents were poor, but they lived with dignity and grace.


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[trfour]

Local businesses, Patrick's for one, and all!!

[Mr. V]

I love it when liberals cite or refer to Jesus, all while trying to completely remove religion from society to create the perfect secular state.

Wrong on both counts: I'm liberal, I vote Libertarian: always.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

[Major]

Local businesses, Patrick's for one, and all!!

Not a big fan of Patrick’s or the WOW trail!


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[fatlazyless]

So, if the 8'6" railroad ties and steel railroad rails spaced 54.5" wide were removed, and replaced with a 12' wide, beige colored, sand and small pea stone gravel roadway, it could be a multi use trail used by walkers, runners, and bicycle riders.

12' is the same width as a highway lane on Route 93, and a 12' wide WOW Trail could get used by walkers, runners, bicyclers, as well as a tour bus trolley, guided talking tour where the driver talks and drives at the same time. 12' width could be used by both pedestrians and slow moving, 10-mph tour trolley buses that are 8' wide and hold 25-passengers. Maybe a duck amphibious vehicle, traveling by road and returning by water, similar to the Boston duck tours is possible.

As a 12' roadway it could get snow removed/plowed in the winter so the walking and bicycling could continue during the winter months.

Walking and pedaling a bicycle would make the Paugus Bay embankment available for use to the public, and could bring people as visiting tourists to Laconia to use it.

Just imagine a 9-mile WOW Trail like this that runs from Lakeport to Weirs Beach to Meredith, where it is now a state owned railroad embankment, along Lake Winnipesaukee, with a single railroad track, originally built in 1885. Is better to remove the railroad tracks and ties, and build a multi use road/trail.

[Mr. V]

Wrong on both counts: I'm liberal, I vote Libertarian: always.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

Oops, meant "I am NOT liberall..."

[Major]

Wrong on both counts: I'm liberal, I vote Libertarian: always.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

Why am I not surprised. (By the way how am I wrong in calling you a liberal when you say “I’m liberal!”)


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[joey2665]

Wrong on both counts: I'm liberal, I vote Libertarian: always.

I'm not religious, I'm an atheist.

I’m a little confused. Libertarians and liberals are 2 different philosophies and atheists certainly do not quite Jesus.


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[Wifi-1]

I’m a little confused. Libertarians and liberals are 2 different philosophies and atheists certainly do not quite Jesus.


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Certainly agree with you here. Distraction by argument (or meaningless babbling), that is the liberal way.

[Outdoorsman]

There is NO length the "self entitled" ppl at SD/LB will go to just to get their way.

“As some of you may know, I’ve taken a no-sanctuary-city pledge,” Spanos said at the public library forum sponsored by the Long Bay and South Down homeowners associations.

WOW Trail

The candidates took several questions about a proposal to extend the WOW Trail from Lakeport to The Weirs. The extension would be in a railroad corridor that skirts Paugus Bay on one side and the gated communities of Long Bay and South Down on the other.

Some residents have said it could pose safety concerns when they move their boats down to the water. Some fear privacy invasion and crime.

Hosmer said he supports extending the trail if a compromise could be found that would deal with the concerns of all involved.

“The last place anybody wants to end up is in court,” he said. “I would seek, if I were the mayor, to play an active role as facilitator because mediation is less expensive than litigation.”

Spanos also said he would make it a priority to bring the homeowners and trail proponents together.

“I think the WOW Trail is a great idea, and I’d certainly like to see it extended to The Weirs,” he said. “It makes sense for the tourism industry up here, but not over any neighbor’s objections.”

NO PAC monies involved here..... :rolleye1::rolleye1:

[Major]

Who wants to bet that Mr. V is not a libertarian? He seems like a big government kind of guy!


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[Mr. V]

Who wants to bet that Mr. V is not a libertarian? He seems like a big government kind of guy!

My typo: I am NOT a liberal, at least I don't think of myself as such.

I ALWAYS vote for any listed Libertarian candidate.

I'm fiscally conservative and socially somewhat tolerant: let people be who and what they want so long as it doesn't interfere with me and mine; I don't vote Republican as I believe in a woman's right to choose.

I don't vote democrat as they're to free with the public coffers.

My beliefs are not black and white and do not fit the prescribed boundaries of the two major parties.

[Dhamma]

I’m a little confused. Libertarians and liberals are 2 different philosophies and atheists certainly do not quite Jesus.


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Atheist dont believe in God but most agree that there was a rabbi called Yeshua, A/K/A Jesus. Theres enough talk about him to think that he existed.
On the other hand, there is no proof of a God who wants or needs to be worshiped.

Just saying

The only part of the WOW trail I've been on was behind Autoswerve. Whenever I had my free oil change I would walk down back to the WoW trail. gotta say, there were some iffy characters hanging out down there every now and then.
Didn't look like walkers, didn't look like runners, didn't look like bike riders.

[8gv]

Hey Fatlazyless...

Can you post up some more to bring some sanity back to this thread?

Thanks!

[Wifi-1]

Hey Fatlazyless...

Can you post up some more to bring some sanity back to this thread?

Thanks!

LOLOL...

Now that I laughed, it's normal for him to throw some disconnected distraction in.

[fatlazyless]

Hey Fatlazyless...

Can you post up some more to bring some sanity back to this thread?

Thanks!

Question: Does a 9-mile long x 12'-wide wow trail, running from Lakeport to Weirs Beach to Meredith in place of the existing single 8'6" wide railroad ties and tracks need to be a paved asphalt surface, or could it be a more natural sand and small pea stone gravel surface?

That is a very good question, and thank you very much for asking. I do not know but think the more natural sand and small pea stone gravel would be a better, more natural fit and look for replacing the existing railroad, single track.

What the 12-mile long www.cottonvalleyrailtrail.org in Wolfeboro and towns to the east has is a sand and small pea stone gravel surface, as opposed to black asphalt. So, apparently the sand and small pea stone is probably doable? It sure looks a lot better than the black asphalt that's the same as a roadway.

[8gv]

Thank you!

[Trail Goer]

On Monday the Laconia City Council, is going to vote on a resolution to have the tracks pulled up infavor for the WOW Trail from Lakeport to Weirs Beach.

The resolution, authored by Mayor Ed Engler, also pledges that the City Council will “work cooperatively with representatives of neighboring communities to study what actions may be necessary to gain state and federal approval for the rail-to-trail project.”

For the rest of the article
https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news/local/resolution-favors-pulling-up-train-tracks-to-make-way-for/article_4080eaee-0d53-11ea-9418-b3aba4936a99.htm

[fatlazyless]

In brief, the details of today's LaDaSun article basically say the Wow Trail will only get constructed if the single, existing railroad track is removed.

The existing railroad track including the wood ties are about nine feet wide, and the Wow Trail will be about twelve feet wide.

With the single track removed, it also removes the need for an ugly safety fence that would hinder the view out to the lake ….. so, that's a huge plus!

Building the Wow Trail is big for building the future of Laconia!

[8gv]

How do the railroad stake holders respond?

How does the state respond?

This seems like a line in the sand will be drawn.

[fatlazyless]

This seems like a line in the sand will be drawn.

Yes, seems like a permanent Wow Trail killer, impossible problem to overcome .... and Colin Van Ostern actually came so very close to winning that Nov, 2016 governor's race ..... boo-hoo.

Are you familiar with those tour bus trolleys which are basically a bus that's made to look like an old fashioned trolley train? Well ...... a tour bus trolley obviously has a tour bus trolley driver because it is basically a motor vehicle similar to a car or a truck with rubber tires, and the driver can double as a tour guide announcer as she/he drives the trolley.

So, with a twelve foot wide Wow Trail roadway, there's enough room for an eight foot wide trolley moving along at a slow 9-mph pace to share the roadway with the pedestrians, runners, roller skaters, and non-motorized bicyclists ...... especially if there's an extra three foot shoulder space in addition to the twelve foot wide Wow Trail.

Something to think about; reconstructing the railroad track by removing the steel rails, digging out the wood ties, and constructing a smooth 12'-wide roadway, used by pedestrians, runners, roller skaters, non-motorized bicycles, and 8'-wide tour bus trolleys with tourists on board, out for a ride, just like that old railroad train, except without the railroad tracks.

Sounds like a job for a John Deere loader with a back hoe!

By going from steel wheel trains, to rubber tire trolleys, it opens up that very scenic, state owned Winnipesaukee embankment to new local and tourist-visitor use.

[The Real BigGuy]

Read the last few posts and it piqued my interest. I’m not going back to read all 200 posts so I apologize in advance if my post is duplicative.

The issue for rail trail conversions is really, who owned the right of way and are the rails still “active”.

First, it is very difficult under federal law to “take” an active rail right of way. This has been trace to laws written in the 1800’s when rail was king. Seems to me that that if they are running trains along Paugus Bay they are still active.

Second, there is the ownership issue. Most older rail right of ways were created by a federal law from 1875 that granted rail companies an easement over a parcel of property. A 2014 US Supreme Court ruling said that this easement was removed when the track was abandoned and “ownership” reverted to the property owner. This ruling is being used by abutter groups (including one in my town) to contest the right of the state to transfer (or lease) a right of way that they acquired from a RR company to municipalities for rail trails. Not being a lawyer, I’m guessing that the theory is that at the moment the rails are abandoned (removed) the easement is voided and the RR company or state loses any right to transfer or lease. Don’t know if any of these cases have reached final decision. It will be interesting to follow.


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[jetskier]

Read the last few posts and it piqued my interest. I’m not going back to read all 200 posts so I apologize in advance if my post is duplicative.

The issue for rail trail conversions is really, who owned the right of way and are the rails still “active”.

First, it is very difficult under federal law to “take” an active rail right of way. This has been trace to laws written in the 1800’s when rail was king. Seems to me that that if they are running trains along Paugus Bay they are still active.

Second, there is the ownership issue. Most older rail right of ways were created by a federal law from 1875 that granted rail companies an easement over a parcel of property. A 2014 US Supreme Court ruling said that this easement was removed when the track was abandoned and “ownership” reverted to the property owner. This ruling is being used by abutter groups (including one in my town) to contest the right of the state to transfer (or lease) a right of way that they acquired from a RR company to municipalities for rail trails. Not being a lawyer, I’m guessing that the theory is that at the moment the rails are abandoned (removed) the easement is voided and the RR company or state loses any right to transfer or lease. Don’t know if any of these cases have reached final decision. It will be interesting to follow.


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I think that you have hit on some of the issues:


The original taking of the property was explicitly for railroad use and it was done at a point in time where the B&M railroad did not have the money to replace washed out track on the segment north of Meredith.
Consideration to repurpose a rail line typically requires a formal abandonment (as pointed out) wherein the rail line has not been used for a period of time. The current rail line is actively used and there are federally issued licenses with rights of renewal.
According to Stone Consulting, the current rail line supports about $17.4 million of economic activity annually. The Alta study indicated about $12.4 million in economic benefit annually and a significant portion of that was "health" oriented which is not comparable.


It simply does not make any sense to "take" the rail line for special interest reasons. This is particularly so, based upon the fact that all indications are that it will be a negative economic impact relative to the current use.

Jetskier :cool:

[fatlazyless]

Jetskier in post #202 has South Down Shores for a local location, so that immediately raises the red flag alert to his South Down motivation to criticize replacing the ugly railroad tracks with a welcome, user-friendly 12' roadway for the public to use.

[jetskier]

Jetskier in post #202 has South Down Shores for a local location, so that immediately raises the red flag alert to his South Down motivation to criticize replacing the ugly railroad tracks with a welcome, user-friendly 12' roadway for the public to use.

ugly railroad tracks?
user friendly roadway?
My motivation?

Let's try to stick to the facts and not resort to personal attacks.

[8gv]

I see the residents along the proposed route as stakeholders in the WOW debate.

It's easy to be in favor of a proposal when there is no direct impact on you.

Even if one is not directly impacted by the WOW Trail expansion, there is a tax payer implication to be considered.

Just consider the Colonial Theatre project to get a sense for what may be coming next.

[fatlazyless]

South Down doesn't want the Wow Trail to happen, for pretty much the same reason it didn't want the nearby Big Island to become a summer girls camp.

Because it will change what they see, looking at their lake view, and it will bring in people who were not there, before.

The Wow Trail, just like the Big Island summer girls camp would be a new, welcome, go-to place and create a beautiful public recreation venue.

South Down just wants things to stay the same, no new changes-thank you, and will fight hard to keep it their way.

[WinnisquamZ]

South Down doesn't want the Wow Trail to happen, for pretty much the same reason it didn't want the nearby Big Island to become a summer girls camp.

Because it will change what they see, looking at their lake view, and it will bring in people who were not there, before.

The Wow Trail, just like the Big Island summer girls camp would be a new, welcome, go-to place and create a beautiful public recreation venue.

South Down just wants things to stay the same, no new changes-thank you, and will fight hard to keep it their way.

All true and have the right to fight against it. Guessing it comes down to who has the deepest pockets. It is ironic that the south down tax payers are paying to fight against it and also paying through their property taxes for it.


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[Woodsy]

Why do the WOW folks want to put an existing business out of business? Why is it the WOW folks cannot co-exist with the RR? oh wait... it is all about the $$$! The RR existence makes the WOW trail too expensive to build! Then perhaps they shouldn't build/extend the WOW trail?

Lets not forget it is the same stupid City Councilors who decided to buy the Colonial for way too much money, proceed to sink way too much into the rebuild (because HEY its good for downtown) but will not spend any $$$ addressing the parking issues downtown! On the upside, good ole Rusty can step in, renovate the apartments above the theater, and make a fortune on the tax payers of Laconia! WOOHOO!


Woodsy

[joey2665]

Why do the WOW folks want to put an existing business out of business? Why is it the WOW folks cannot co-exist with the RR? oh wait... it is all about the $$$! The RR existence makes the WOW trail too expensive to build! Then perhaps they shouldn't build/extend the WOW trail?

Lets not forget it is the same stupid City Councilors who decided to buy the Colonial for way too much money, proceed to sink way too much into the rebuild (because HEY its good for downtown) but will not spend any $$$ addressing the parking issues downtown! On the upside, good ole Rusty can step in, renovate the apartments above the theater, and make a fortune on the tax payers of Laconia! WOOHOO!


Woodsy

I agree. If they want the trail so badly (FYI I am near the trail and would actually enjoy it) raise the extra funds PRIVATELY and have them coexist. It is not fair in any way for the trail to put the Winnipesaukee Scenic Rail out of business especially when it has been an asset to the area for years. I sure many in favor of removing the rail would not like it if someone was trying to put them out of business for a walking trail so some other recreational issue.

[Woodsy]

Read this in your best Walter Cronkite...

In the news today... the Laconia City council voted to agree with a sham study funded by the airport, that extending the airport runway would be an economic boon to the area. Unfortunately, this will put local favorite, Patrick's out of business.

Can you imagine? But that is the logic the WOW folks are pushing!

Woodsy

[Trail Goer]

I think that you have hit on some of the issues:


The original taking of the property was explicitly for railroad use and it was done at a point in time where the B&M railroad did not have the money to replace washed out track on the segment north of Meredith.
Consideration to repurpose a rail line typically requires a formal abandonment (as pointed out) wherein the rail line has not been used for a period of time. The current rail line is actively used and there are federally issued licenses with rights of renewal.


Jetskier :cool:

Not all railroad ROW's are easements, some cases the railroad's owned the land out right. I can't say for certain that this line was owned outright or not but I do know the majority of the lines the B&M operated were in fact owned outright by them and not easements. Either way the federal government instituted the National Trails System Act in 1983 that allows all ROW's abandoned by the railroad to be railbanked, which keeps easements from reverting back to the original landowners. However I am 99% certain the original landowners must be compensated again, since its intended purpose has changed. A tedious process to say the least, especially if the original land has been subdivided. That could cost the state a pretty penny if the line in question is only an easement.

[Biggd]

Read this in your best Walter Cronkite...

In the news today... the Laconia City council voted to agree with a sham study funded by the airport, that extending the airport runway would be an economic boon to the area. Unfortunately, this will put local favorite, Patrick's out of business.

Can you imagine? But that is the logic the WOW folks are pushing!

WoodsyIf you have enough money you can always find someone to be on your side. Studies can be swayed by who ever can adds more zero's to the check. :(

[Woodsy]

If you have enough money you can always find someone to be on your side. Studies can be swayed by who ever can adds more zero's to the check. :(

My point exactly..... this so called study was paid for by the people who want the tracks gone!

Woodsy

[stingray]

The answer should be extend the WOW trail up the east side of Paugus Bay all the way to the Weirs and leave the tracks alone on the west side.

There are some old tracks on the east side if they really want to pull some up.

Just think of all the commercial establishments that would benefit.

You keep the railroad in business plus you generate new business. Once the commercial establishments add public docks even the boaters will be happy.

Nobody has to disappoint the snowmobilers either

Perhaps SB/Longbay would pony up the funds for the cause they would otherwise be giving to the lawyers


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[joey2665]

The answer should be extend the WOW trail up the east side of Paugus Bay all the way to the Weirs and leave the tracks alone on the west side.

There are some old tracks on the east side if they really want to pull some up.

Just think of all the commercial establishments that would benefit.

You keep the railroad in business plus you generate new business. Once the commercial establishments add public docks even the boaters will be happy.

Nobody has to disappoint the snowmobilers either

Perhaps SB/Longbay would pony up the funds for the cause they would otherwise be giving to the lawyers


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East side has way too many obstacles such as motels, docks, businesses and very limited about of land.

However you do bring up an excellent point not brought up often. What will happens to the snowmobile trail? I highly doubt they would be allowed on the WOW Trail as they are not allowed on the current section.

I for one would be every disappointed as I use that corridor often

[Trail Goer]

Laconia city counsel shelves the push to have the railroad tracks removed for the time being.
https://www.wmur.com/article/laconia-city-council-tables-study-on-replacing-railroad-tracks-with-recreation-trail/29969490

[ishoot308]

Laconia city counsel shelves the push to have the railroad tracks removed for the time being.
https://www.wmur.com/article/laconia-city-council-tables-study-on-replacing-railroad-tracks-with-recreation-trail/29969490

Hopefully they will shelve extending the airport!

[AC2717]

Laconia city counsel shelves the push to have the railroad tracks removed for the time being.
https://www.wmur.com/article/laconia-city-council-tables-study-on-replacing-railroad-tracks-with-recreation-trail/29969490

shouldn't even be a discussion - answer is No, for the mere fact they can't legally do it. Also the fact that they even would consider shutting down commerce for everyone involved with the tracks. Good luck with lawyers in court in that one. No wonder my taxes went up so they can waste the money on a snowball being thrown into hell

The audacity of these WOW trail people astounds me.

[joey2665]

Laconia city counsel shelves the push to have the railroad tracks removed for the time being.
https://www.wmur.com/article/laconia-city-council-tables-study-on-replacing-railroad-tracks-with-recreation-trail/29969490

Awesome news. Thank you for the update. FLL will need to find another crusade in the meantime :laugh: I am sure that should not be a problem

[fatlazyless]

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, once upon a time, many, many years ago, there was a railroad line that traveled along the Lake Winnipesaukee shoreline in Meredith, and the Weirs Beach and Lakeport areas in Laconia.

First built away back in 1883 or so, for many, many years it was a very important transportation link.

However, with the building of Rt-93 in 1965, and the big switch from steel wheel trains to rubber tired cars and trucks, the Winnipesaukee Railroad tracks have greatly declined with little to no use, no trains, no freight, and no passengers.

What it really is, is an unused railroad track, something more like a railroad track that belongs in a museum.

The Winnipesaukee Railroad ….. it was great when it was alive ….. but it is now totally dead …. may it rest in pieces! … :patriot:

If you were to go down to the track today on November 26, 2019, you would have to wait about six months before a train actually came down this here railroad track ….. a-yuh! … :patriot:

Next train coming along in May, 2020 on this here www.hoborr.com/winni.html will be the Mother's Day opening day rail ride train, or something, which is not even a real train ….. it is a local tourist train.

So, Gov Chris Sununu, please help move the lakes region forward by tearing out these old steel rails and wood railroad ties, and help build the www.wowtrail.org in its' place.

[Biggd]

Awesome news. Thank you for the update. FLL will need to find another crusade in the meantime :laugh: I am sure that should not be a problemFLL will promote anything that doesn't cost him money. His moto is "if it's free it's for me". :rolleye1:

[joey2665]

FLL will promote anything that doesn't cost him money. His moto is "if it's free it's for me". :rolleye1:

Hit the nail on the head!!! [emoji4][emoji23]
Or on the knuckle head

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[exlakesregioner]

Hmmm? seems there are a lot of business that are seasonal and won't reopen or start up again till spring, should we demand they all shut down if we don't like them or use them if someone else wants to use the space? :D

[Trail Goer]

Last nights city council meeting is on YouTube. The testimonies start around the 13 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhjgwDcVdnk

[joey2665]

Last nights city council meeting is on YouTube. The testimonies start around the 13 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhjgwDcVdnk

Interesting testimonials. All in favor of keeping the rail. Surprised no one spoke in favor of removal and no one from WOW.org


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[fatlazyless]

Slow moving 9-mph, rubber tired trolley buses would function similar to the existing Winnipesaukee Railroad, and could co-exist with pedestrians, runners, and bicyclists on a 12'-wide 'trail' that's built to replace the demolished railroad steel tracks and wood ties.

So, that makes a 12' 'trail' a multi-purpose plan that will accommodate both the trolley riders and the people powered foot traffic and bicyclists.

Over the course of the Wow Trail route, there are numerous areas where a wider 15' rail trail can be built that makes it a little more accommodating for the pedestrians and trolley to share the road.

With a railroad train, the tracks cannot be shared with anyone, and indeed as it is private property, the abutting residents are quick to call the police on unknown, incoming, track walkers.

The railroad track is not so much a railroad track, but is much more a 'no trespassing', safety buffer line for home owner security.

When local residents say "we love the Winnipesaukee Railroad" ..... what they really mean is that they love it as a line of private property with no trespassing, and they basically have control over who gets to walk across, or along the track.

"It's our way, it's not your way!"

"Hey Rene, there's an incoming boogie out on the tracks, about 250-yards south down ..... better call the cops!"

[joey2665]

I just do not understand. This is an extremely important topic to many of us here on the form. Why must you derail it with your dribble and babbling nonsense


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[Biggd]

I just do not understand. This is an extremely important topic to many of us here on the form. Why must you derail it with your dribble and babbling nonsense


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=92687)Because he has a captive audience on here. In person, no one would listen to him.

[Mr. V]

Because he has a captive audience on here. In person, no one would listen to him.

This board has an "ignore" option; if you don't want to read what someone posts you can choose to "ignore" them, and their posts will no longer be visible to you.

Not that you should, but you could.

[Biggd]

This board has an "ignore" option; if you don't want to read what someone posts you can choose to "ignore" them, and their posts will no longer be visible to you.

Not that you should, but you could.Occasionally he has something worth reading and I can usually tell before I get too far into it. That's the only reason I don't block him but those postings are few and far between.
Usually it's just the same old ***** rehashed over and over again because he's got nothing else to do.
I hope I never get that lonely. I hope he has somewhere to go on Thanksgiving besides Walmart.

[joey2665]

This board has an "ignore" option; if you don't want to read what someone posts you can choose to "ignore" them, and their posts will no longer be visible to you.

Not that you should, but you could.

It's a waste of time since most people "quote" his posts when replying to or about him so you end up seeing it anyway

[TheRoBoat]

This may one of those times.

There is something very important in FLL's post that I haven't seen addressed - a trolley. It may be here, I just might have missed it.

The best utilization of Laconia, the Weirs, and Meredith will happen when you can easily get from one to the other. Shop and play all day and only have to park once.

I (naively I am finding out) assumed they would use the existing tracks as a trolley system to connect the three locations.

Is there a plan for getting people from one location to the other, or will it all be Uber/Lyft/Cabs?

[Trail Goer]

TheRoBoat - you can't have light rail (trolley/subway) and heavy rail (railroads) intermingle on the same tracks. The only place where it was ever allowed (that I'm aware of) was in Lowell, MA where the National Park trolley, made use of industrial railroad tracks when the B&M was still servicing customers on the same track. That was in the 1980's and very early 1990's but times have changed and things of that nature, are not allowed anymore.

[TheRoBoat]

Thanks for the info Trail Goer. That explanation makes sense, for that situation.

I don't think this is a similar situation, and while there may be "rules", you could have a fully functioning trolley system, and keep the rail. The Clark family could run both, and schedule accordingly.

I would also argue that given the choice between the Winni/Hobo and trolley, the trolley would be a much more lucrative operation.

But the question remains - if not trolley, how do the people get between the towns?

[joey2665]

Thanks for the info Trail Goer. That explanation makes sense, for that situation.

I don't think this is a similar situation, and while there may be "rules", you could have a fully functioning trolley system, and keep the rail. The Clark family could run both, and schedule accordingly.

I would also argue that given the choice between the Winni/Hobo and trolley, the trolley would be a much more lucrative operation.

But the question remains - if not trolley, how do the people get between the towns?

Your missing the point. They operate on different systems. The current rails are also used for freight and parts for the Hobo rail and changing would be extremely costly.

Also, the current rail stops in Lakeport, the Weir’s and Meredith


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[WinnisquamZ]

Why does everyone think we must go between Meredith and Laconia? Has anyone asked Meredith? On second thought they do have a large number of benches and grassy areas along the docks for those interested in napping


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[TheRoBoat]

When Trail Goer said they coexisted, I assumed that he meant they used the same tracks - Heavy and Light.

By your reply - It appears you are saying no, they use different size tracks.

The rail should remain as is - I am in agreement with you. I am not in favor of removing tracks for the WOW trail.

So all the Clark Family needs is a few retrofitted trolley cars

[TheRoBoat]

The more important question is has anyone asked TPG Resorts?

[Trail Goer]

I'm not aware of passengers being able to get on or off at Lakeport, I think its just the location where the train reverses direction. I could be wrong though, I just haven't paid to close attention to it.
I know downtown is kind of largely over looked by a lot of people but as I keep telling people, every revitalization project has a first step. Having Laconia become and active train station again, I think would do wonders for downtown, I just don't know how it would work out with the railroads current operations. The draw bridge at Lakeport is control by the railroad but they have to stop and manually flip a switch to close it, which adds lag time. I suppose a closed circuit system could be installed, similar to what activates the lights and bells at a railroad crossing, but in this case to close and open a draw bridge.

[Descant]

Molly the Trolley works just fine in Wolfeboro. A couple of flag stops along a circular route from MacIntyre (sp?) Circle/WalMart, Margate to, say, Akwa Marine, Weirs Beach RR station and Funspot would allow non-drivers such as teens to go shopping, to the beach, etc. Tourists could ride to the Weirs for the Mount, Sophie C. without feeding parking meters. Of course, the Weirs docks are still, well, you know.

[fatlazyless]

And, another thing about replacing the 9-mile long x 9-foot wide existing un-used single railroad track that runs along the Winnipesaukee embankment from Lakeport to Weirs Beach to Meredith with a 12-foot wide gravel roadway.

In addition to a tourist trolley like Wolfeboro's 'Molly the Trolley' sharing the Wow Trail with walkers, joggers, runners, and bicyclists ...... a 12-wide gravel roadway would get patrolled by the www.laconianh.gov/229/Police who could be walking, bicycling, or driving along slowly in a Laconia Police patrol cruiser.

It would change the use from a very infrequent summer tourist train to a 7-day, 52-week, waterfront access, Lake Winnipesaukee go-to rail trail ...... what's not to like!

[CooperS7777]

Removing the tracks would be a terrible mistake in my eyes, and I feel an option where the two coexist would be best for everyone.

Perhaps the push by the city to remove the track will motivate the Clark family to make Lakeport a more frequent / favorable stop. With the recent investments announced in Lakeport, and some that have not yet been announced, it may prove to be an economically beneficial move to the rail line.

[Biggd]

My house is about a mile away from the train stop in Meredith and I'm always aggravated when I take the grandkids for the 1/2 ride on the train. I can't take the 1/2 ride from the Meredith station. I have to drive to Wears to take a 1/2 ride either back to Meredith or to Lake Port. The little one's don't have the patients to go for the full ride from Meredith to Lake Port and back. I'm not sure why they can't manage this properly.

[Trail Goer]

I didn't get a chance to watch the video on the city council's meeting till this past weekend. Just a few remarks, I would like to make on the video.

1. I like how Mr. Clark, president of the Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad, was extremely informative but I find it troubling that, the Stone Consulting study, never made it to the city counsel when it was first released and I find it troubling that he had to point out all the deficiency in the report done by Alta, those deficiencies should've been addressed before the report was released.

2. Mr. Dearness owner of New England Southern railroad noted that none of his information that he provided was even in the report. The guy takes time to partake in the study and they just omit all his information in the final report, what's up with that?

3. I like the points made by the Conway Scenic's owner Mr. Swirk, about taking the opportunity to capitalize on a resource, sitting right in front of them, rather than destroy it. That gentlemen has over 30 years experience in the freight railroad industry and Chicopee, MA was a perfect example he used of a city that saw an opportunity and took advantage of it, creating many jobs for that area. I'd like to see Laconia do the same but that discussion needs to have its own topic.

4. I found the Mayor's response on the current law (railroads take 1st priority on state owned ROW's) to be arrogant and condescending towards the gentlemen who was trying to remind him of that law.

5. Lastly, I was surprised not one person was on hand to show support for the WOW Trail and if they were, I don't recall them speaking. With the city creating so much tribulation over trail vs rail, I would have expected some support to back up the cities effort, of its "Hostile Takeover" quest.

[jetskier]

I didn't get a chance to watch the video on the city council's meeting till this past weekend. Just a few remarks, I would like to make on the video.

1. I like how Mr. Clark, president of the Plymouth and Lincoln Railroad, was extremely informative but I find it troubling that, the Stone Consulting study, never made it to the city counsel when it was first released and I find it troubling that he had to point out all the deficiency in the report done by Alta, those deficiencies should've been addressed before the report was released.

2. Mr. Dearness owner of New England Southern railroad noted that none of his information that he provided was even in the report. The guy takes time to partake in the study and they just omit all his information in the final report, what's up with that?

3. I like the points made by the Conway Scenic's owner Mr. Swirk, about taking the opportunity to capitalize on a resource, sitting right in front of them, rather than destroy it. That gentlemen has over 30 years experience in the freight railroad industry and Chicopee, MA was a perfect example he used of a city that saw an opportunity and took advantage of it, creating many jobs for that area. I'd like to see Laconia do the same but that discussion needs to have its own topic.

4. I found the Mayor's response on the current law (railroads take 1st priority on state owned ROW's) to be arrogant and condescending towards the gentlemen who was trying to remind him of that law.

5. Lastly, I was surprised not one person was on hand to show support for the WOW Trail and if they were, I don't recall them speaking. With the city creating so much tribulation over trail vs rail, I would have expected some support to back up the cities effort, of its "Hostile Takeover" quest.

I listened to the recording of the meeting and agree with your observations. The other very interesting fact (never mentioned) is that NH HB25 has passed and it includes funding for renovations (railroad ties, bridge repairs) along this segment (and attached segments) of the rail line. So, the Mayor in indicating that anything can be changed, never mentioned that the state is making a significant investment in the continued operation of the rail line.

Jetskier :cool:

[TheTimeTraveler]

A rail line can not be considered abandoned (and/or declared surplus) as long as it is active, whether once a day, once a month, or once a year.

The fact remains that this line continues to be used and as such it will stay as it is unless or until it is relocated (which it won't) or is permanently abandoned (which is dependent upon the rail users of the line). This line is still very much active.

I would guesstimate that the Mayor of Laconia may be looking for votes in discussing elimination of the rail line. It's a shame that tax payer money is being spent in "doing studies". Studies are absolutely useless unless or until Federal Railroad Regulations are substantially changed.

None of these Railroad Regulations are new as most were established back in the 1800's when the great Iron Horse started criss crossing our nation.





.

[fatlazyless]

Here's a Dec 2 letter to the editor published in The LaDa Sun.
...............

'Concord and Laconia keep railroad on life support'

To The Daily Sun

Laconia Mayor-elect Andrew Hosmer and the rest of the city council's recent delay on the proposed rail-trail is impacting not just Laconia but the entire state.

The New Hampshire railroad industry is dead; it's been dead for a long time. The state owned railroad line from Concord to Lincoln is an example of what is wrong with Concord and the way the state rules.

From what I've seen, the Bureau of Rail, Transit and Aeronautics is controlled by nostalgic railroad fans that want to return New Hampshire to the glory days or railroading - think steam engines, Pullman cars and the grand hotels.

This isn't going to happen in Laconia or anywhere in the Granite State.

Also, because of Concord, New Hampshire no longer has a manufactoring or commodity base to support any railroad, and even if it did, it wouldn't be competitive against interstate 93 and, once the 5G network is finished, driverless trucks.

The New Hampshire railroad industry is dead; it's been dead for a long time. The politicians in Laconia and Concord want to keep it on life support.

Steven J Connolly
Bethlehem
..................

Here in New Hampshire, we don't really have a railroad, what we have is more like a failroad. .... my comment-fll.

[joey2665]

Here's a Dec 2 letter to the editor published in The LaDa Sun.
...............

'Concord and Laconia keep railroad on life support'

To The Daily Sun

Laconia Mayor-elect Andrew Hosmer and the rest of the city council's recent delay on the proposed rail-trail is impacting not just Laconia but the entire state.

The New Hampshire railroad industry is dead; it's been dead for a long time. The state owned railroad line from Concord to Lincoln is an example of what is wrong with Concord and the way the state rules.

From what I've seen, the Bureau of Rail, Transit and Aeronautics is controlled by nostalgic railroad fans that want to return New Hampshire to the glory days or railroading - think steam engines, Pullman cars and the grand hotels.

This isn't going to happen in Laconia or anywhere in the Granite State.

Also, because of Concord, New Hampshire no longer has a manufactoring or commodity base to support any railroad, and even if it did, it wouldn't be competitive against interstate 93 and, once the 5G network is finished, driverless trucks.

The New Hampshire railroad industry is dead; it's been dead for a long time. The politicians in Laconia and Concord want to keep it on life support.

Steven J Connolly
Bethlehem
..................

Here in New Hampshire, we don't really have a railroad, what we have is more like a failroad. .... my comment-fll.

A useful on topic post. Thank you.

However I disagree that the rail system in NH is dead and I certainly disagree with Mr Connolly. Try telling this to the Hobo and Winnipesaukee Rail Companies, Conway Scenic Rail and others that continue to employee residents of this state and continue to be profitable.

Watch the video of the town meeting and tell me that rail is dead. You are just pushing your agenda of removing the rail in place of the trail.

I keep saying it, if you want the trail they should coexist. If you think the trail will be that more socially and economically beneficial to the area than spend the extra dollar for them to run parallel.

[jetskier]

A useful on topic post. Thank you.

However I disagree that the rail system in NH is dead and I certainly disagree with Mr Connolly. Try telling this to the Hobo and Winnipesaukee Rail Companies, Conway Scenic Rail and others that continue to employee residents of this state and continue to be profitable.

Watch the video of the town meeting and tell me that rail is dead. You are just pushing your agenda of removing the rail in place of the trail.

I keep saying it, if you want the trail they should coexist. If you think the trail will be that more socially and economically beneficial to the area than spend the extra dollar for them to run parallel.

The solution to the problem is simple:


There is no way that the current active rail line is going to be repurposed for the WOW trail. There is no basis to displace the businesses, there are federal right of use licenses and the state is investing the current rail line.
The rails with trails solution is too costly and there are a number of property rights issues and construction challenges.


The solution is to consider alternatives that are less disruptive and affordable. That is the path (no pun) of progress...everything else has become pretty much moot.

Just saying...

Jetskier:cool:

[joey2665]

The solution to the problem is simple:


There is no way that the current active rail line is going to be repurposed for the WOW trail. There is no basis to displace the businesses, there are federal right of use licenses and the state is investing the current rail line.
The rails with trails solution is too costly and there are a number of property rights issues and construction challenges.


The solution is to consider alternatives that are less disruptive and affordable. That is the path (no pun) of progress...everything else has become pretty much moot.

Just saying...

Jetskier:cool:

I am all for a temporary diversion of the trail in certain areas to ease cost and let both coexist. I would love to see some proposed alternatives

[AC2717]

i've been saying it for years. from meredith center road, down union ave past the businesses that will benefit from it, left onto lake street past the margate on the margate side, and continue onto weirs Blvd on lake side all the way to the weirs

install walking path/sidewalk, probably 1/3 or less the cost (just speculation on cost of course, but no way as much as what they are trying to do)

[Trail Goer]

Here's a Dec 2 letter to the editor published in The LaDa Sun.
...............

'Concord and Laconia keep railroad on life support'

To The Daily Sun

Laconia Mayor-elect Andrew Hosmer and the rest of the city council's recent delay on the proposed rail-trail is impacting not just Laconia but the entire state.

The New Hampshire railroad industry is dead; it's been dead for a long time. The state owned railroad line from Concord to Lincoln is an example of what is wrong with Concord and the way the state rules.

From what I've seen, the Bureau of Rail, Transit and Aeronautics is controlled by nostalgic railroad fans that want to return New Hampshire to the glory days or railroading - think steam engines, Pullman cars and the grand hotels.

This isn't going to happen in Laconia or anywhere in the Granite State.

Also, because of Concord, New Hampshire no longer has a manufactoring or commodity base to support any railroad, and even if it did, it wouldn't be competitive against interstate 93 and, once the 5G network is finished, driverless trucks.

The New Hampshire railroad industry is dead; it's been dead for a long time. The politicians in Laconia and Concord want to keep it on life support.

Steven J Connolly
Bethlehem
..................

Here in New Hampshire, we don't really have a railroad, what we have is more like a failroad. .... my comment-fll.

Ask Mr. Connolly how well the Downeaster is doing. I remember him saying the Downeaster would be a failure and a waste of money. Well, now you would be hard pressed to find a seat on some of those trains. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Connolly is part of the problem in this state, quick to shoot everything down and lacks the ability to offer up any type of alternative solutions, he just wants to keep the status quo. So, let me ask how is the status quo doing for NH? Mr. Swirk the owner of the Conway Scenic Railroad, presented a very good example to the city council last week that pointed out how investing in the infrastructure that's in place is the real economic engine, not tearing it out. Chicopee, MA is reaping the benefits from that investment, it created jobs and revenue for that community. The Downeaster has spurred growth along its tracks as was pointed out in last week’s meeting with the city council. Take a look at the Grafton and Upton Railroad, down in Grafton, MA that railroad had been all but abandoned for 20+ years, couldn't even see the tracks they were over grown so much, now freight trains run up and down the line just about every day. Again, it's created jobs, spurred economic growth in those communities. If Laconia really wants to create economic growth, creating real jobs is the way to go, not building trails.