Ok, what can you do to the lake bottom?

[mishman]

Watched an excavator on a barge dredge a deeper channel for a boat to get to his dock today. Created all kinds of silt (no silt barriers in place). When the barge left with heaps of bottom sand/sludge on its deck, when he got out to deep water he dumped it by using the shovel to side swap it off the deck. Took fifteen or twenty swipes so it was very noticeable.

So the question is, is this really legal? Assume they had a permit to dig a deeper channel but no silt barriers? And to dump in a deep spot in the lake. Just seemed like it was a 1950s thing to do. But I could be wrong. This is, after all, New Hampshire.

[Biggd]

It seems to me that if it was material that came from the lake then it would be legal to put it back in the lake as long as they had a permit to dredge, not sure about silt barriers.

[Onshore]

Watched an excavator on a barge dredge a deeper channel for a boat to get to his dock today. Created all kinds of silt (no silt barriers in place). When the barge left with heaps of bottom sand/sludge on its deck, when he got out to deep water he dumped it by using the shovel to side swap it off the deck. Took fifteen or twenty swipes so it was very noticeable.

So the question is, is this really legal? Assume they had a permit to dig a deeper channel but no silt barriers? And to dump in a deep spot in the lake. Just seemed like it was a 1950s thing to do. But I could be wrong. This is, after all, New Hampshire.

Not legal. Turbidity booms sufficient to achieve containment of plume are required. No they can't just dump material back in the lake.

Respectfully,
D. Forst
Shoreland Section Supervisor
NHDES Land Resource Management Program

[Seaplane Pilot]

I had obtained a dredge permit a few years ago via one of the marine contractors. The permit was quite specific about the amount of material that could be dredged, and was also quite specific that the material had to be removed and taken away off site via truck. The use of silt booms was also required.

[SAB1]

Great way to possibly spread weeds etc................

[Hillcountry]

Watched an excavator on a barge dredge a deeper channel for a boat to get to his dock today. Created all kinds of silt (no silt barriers in place). When the barge left with heaps of bottom sand/sludge on its deck, when he got out to deep water he dumped it by using the shovel to side swap it off the deck. Took fifteen or twenty swipes so it was very noticeable.

So the question is, is this really legal? Assume they had a permit to dig a deeper channel but no silt barriers? And to dump in a deep spot in the lake. Just seemed like it was a 1950s thing to do. But I could be wrong. This is, after all, New Hampshire.

Perhaps the original poster should contact said neighbor and contractor, get names and forward to Shore Things (or the correct organization) for appropriate action?

[mishman]

The name of the company was Northern _________, I should have taken a picture. Anyone know this company. Will try attach picture of their rig from a distance - no close ups were taken. Not sure I want to tell on my neighbor but this struck me as not exactly legal.14092

[iw8surf]

Thing with ratting on your neighbors is you better make sure you do everything perfect and by the book too. Which we all do of course.

[Onshore]

Any chance this is the same guy? This was August 6, 2018. We'd really appreciate any photos and information you can provide.

[ApS]

I recognize the Wolfeboro Airpark in the background. :eek2:

They'd taken down a perfectly good boathouse to house an oversized boat, which can be seen at a mooring directly offshore from the barge.

I took some photos two days later. When I showed up with a camera, two guys appeared suddenly, cranked up a chainsaw and got busy.

The same outfit had just installed a new dock near me-- the same one that gets taken out by ice every winter. I'd featured them earlier here, suggesting that large and dangerous lake debris is shed from barges. :rolleye1:

.

[mishman]

The incident occurred in Moultonborough. Anyone know of a dock company whose first name is Northern? Can't recall the second name.

[garysanfran]

The incident occurred in Moultonborough. Anyone know of a dock company whose first name is Northern? Can't recall the second name.

http://www.nedockandbarge.com/

[Formula260SS]

http://www.nedockandbarge.com/

I don't think it's those guys. It's a new contractor, I've seen the barge a few times I think think it says Northern something. I would suspect NE Dock & Barge knows better

[ApS]

The incident occurred in Moultonborough. Anyone know of a dock company whose first name is Northern? Can't recall the second name. Then we have two incidents. :eek:

___________________

The Wolfeboro dock to my right was a total-rebuild by a barge marked, "Northeast Dock & Barge". (Photo previously posted here last week). I'd pixilated the name! :o

My vantage point from shore allowed me to see only one engine, and that engine was black in color.

The Wolfeboro boathouse to my left, presently starting a major rebuild with a huge rock crib, had the barge pictured below—with two black engines.

Several days ago, the rock cribs that were to make the new foundation had been stored to the right of the barge. By yesterday, they'd been moved—perhaps to surround the new dredging. :confused:

Since the only other commonality was a rusty roof, I can't say that it was the same barge. :confused:

This barge didn't leave last weekend, so there's a good chance it will be there this coming weekend, too.

.

[Taz]

Winter Harbor. I recognize the moored boat.

[MAXUM]

Not for nothing but it seems this would be easy to track down.

If you know where the work was done contact the landowner. Cross reference this against a pulled permit assuming one has been. From there find out from the landowner who they hired.

I don't think on a public forum it's very nice to speculate who did the work as if the wrong person or business is incorrectly accused it could adversely affect their livelihood. I'm all for letting everyone know if there is a contractor out there doing it wrong but only after this is a proven fact and not speculation. What some may perceive as "wrong" may very well be OK under certain circumstances. Clearly in at least the pic posted by ShoreThings - who happens to be the resident expert on this kind of stuff, that seems obvious but I'd still defer any judgments as to what is going on that is supposedly "illegal" to those that are in the know so to speak.

That said it's good there are those out there paying attention to this sort of thing, the lake as a whole needs to be cared for by all especially contractors who often times work unsupervised so any nefarious activity should be pointed out to the appropriate authorities for further action if it is so warranted.

[The Real BigGuy]

I believe that if the owner had the work done, and it was done illegally, he/she/they are as responsible as the contractor (at least for not using siltation screens) and are liable for fines. How cooperative would you expect them to be?


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[joey2665]

I believe that if the owner had the work done, and it was done illegally, he/she/they are as responsible as the contractor (at least for not using siltation screens) and are liable for fines. How cooperative would you expect them to be?


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Agreed. The original poster however does know the exact address and the owner. I understand he doesn't want to have an issue with his neighbor but to me the health of the lake and reporting illegal activity is more important than a civil relationship with the neighbor.

[MAXUM]

I believe that if the owner had the work done, and it was done illegally, he/she/they are as responsible as the contractor (at least for not using siltation screens) and are liable for fines. How cooperative would you expect them to be?


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People tend to get a little more cooperative if they are staring at a hefty fine where if the contractor is identified passes some of that financial hit on them.

Far as it being a neighbor, I wouldn't say a word to them or confront them about it - just contact DES and let them investigate and handle it.

[garysanfran]

At the entrance to Weirs Channel with a name that began with North...Maybe Northender or something. It's doing work on the new house with the floating palapas in front.

[Onshore]

While owners are legally responsible for the work done by the contractors they hire this does not mean that owners necessarily hired a contractor with the intent that the contractor would violate the law. Frequently, the owner is not at their lake residence while the work is being done so they might never see the water quality violation that could occur. They trust that they have hired professionals and that things will done properly. This doesn't mean there aren't owners out there that have insisted on completing things in an illegal manner, I have met a few, experience has shown them to be the exception. As for things that may or may not be violations here are some things to keep in mind.

Much of our purpose is to protect water quality. Therefore permits for permanent structure work and dredge will typically have a condition requiring the containment of turbidity through the duration of the project. This usually means installing curtains around the project. The curtain boom is visible above the water while weights are supposed to keep it in contact with the lake bed. We recognize and take into consideration that even the best turbidity controls can be overwhelmed in a violent storm or wind event. However if a project generates turbidity, failure to install any controls at all will always be considered a violation.

As recently as the early 1990s it was possible for a contractor to have a permit that would allow them to dispose of individual rocks in deep water. It should be noted that this was specifically for rocks and was never allowed for general dredge spoils or other debris. This is no longer allowed at all. Nothing should be being pushed off a barge into the lake as a means of disposal. Among the factors that figured into this change in what is allowed were concerns about turbidity, spread of invasive species, an inability to monitor what exactly was being pushed of the barge and whether or not debris, trash, or contaminants were being mixed in, someone accidently dropping a really big rock on a wreck site, and habitat loss. To address the habitat loss issue, the Department changed the standard permitting conditions from allowing deep water rock disposal to requiring the relocation of rocks removed to nearby locations of similar depth where they will not pose a navigational risk. Again, this shift happened 1990s. Dredge spoils are to be dewatered and removed from the lake. Only large rocks and boulders are relocated to preserve habitat.

BTW this should not be taken as an indictment of all contractors. Most try to do the right thing. Honest mistakes can be made. Every population has its outliers...

[BroadHopper]

Got permission from a former governor for a 'land grant' to build a land berm off his property to #1 provide an access to deep water for a dock and #2 capture sand for a sandy beach. The capturing of sand for the beach made my dock ineffective as the sand built up and made my dock unusable. Took it to court and guess what. It's perfectly legit!

This happened back in the early '90's. Wish I could contest this now!

[TiltonBB]

At the entrance to Weirs Channel with a name that began with North...Maybe Northender or something. It's doing work on the new house with the floating palapas in front.

is this the one in question?

[mishman]

This is definitely the outfit I saw doing the work without a silt fence and dumping sand and mud in the middle of the lake. No doubt about it.

[ApS]

Not for nothing but it seems this would be easy to track down. If you know where the work was done contact the landowner. Cross reference this against a pulled permit assuming one has been. From there find out from the landowner who they hired. I don't think on a public forum it's very nice to speculate who did the work as if the wrong person or business is incorrectly accused it could adversely affect their livelihood. I'm all for letting everyone know if there is a contractor out there doing it wrong but only after this is a proven fact and not speculation. What some may perceive as "wrong" may very well be OK under certain circumstances. Clearly in at least the pic posted by ShoreThings - who happens to be the resident expert on this kind of stuff, that seems obvious but I'd still defer any judgments as to what is going on that is supposedly "illegal" to those that are in the know so to speak. That said it's good there are those out there paying attention to this sort of thing, the lake as a whole needs to be cared for by all especially contractors who often times work unsupervised so any nefarious activity should be pointed out to the appropriate authorities for further action if it is so warranted.
Any chance this is the same guy? This was August 6, 2018. We'd really appreciate any photos and information you can provide.
This (at the arrow), looks like it could be a permit.

Does DES just walk up and inspect it? :confused:

>

[tummyman]

DES can talk all about turbidity, but they totally ignore the problems caused by the wake boats in coves. Turbidity happens every day but DES looks the other way. These wake boats are a major problem, but not for DES! Just selective enforcement against property owners but not others causing real problems.

[SAMIAM]

If you have a sandy bottom that has been compromised with silt and leaves by stirring up the water there is a way to clean it. I use this method at my house, not because of marine construction but due to the fact that my bay is now a no wake zone and I don'r get the wave action to clean the sandy bottom and the west wind blows leaves and silt my way.
I have a roof rake with that extends to around 25'
I start my boat and make sure the drive is trimmed straight back which starts a good currant Then, starting at the boat, I walk along the shore
stirring up the bottom with the rake and it cleans it right down to the sand.
Not to play devils advocate, but you could tie your boat in such a way as to direct all that material right back at your neighbor :rolleye2:

[Lake Winnipesaukee Alliance]

DES can talk all about turbidity, but they totally ignore the problems caused by the wake boats in coves. Turbidity happens every day but DES looks the other way. These wake boats are a major problem, but not for DES! Just selective enforcement against property owners but not others causing real problems.

Tummyman,

As we posted in our recent erosion thread, we'd love to get photos, locations, and any other evidence if you have it. If it's too difficult to photograph, we'd like the exact location and your advice on how to capture proof. We will incorporate into our action plans to improve water quality for the lake. Please post here or PM us.

Thanks,

LWA

[Descant]

If you have a sandy bottom that has been compromised with silt and leaves by stirring up the water there is a way to clean it. I use this method at my house, not because of marine construction but due to the fact that my bay is now a no wake zone and I don'r get the wave action to clean the sandy bottom and the west wind blows leaves and silt my way.
I have a roof rake with that extends to around 25'
I start my boat and make sure the drive is trimmed straight back which starts a good currant Then, starting at the boat, I walk along the shore
stirring up the bottom with the rake and it cleans it right down to the sand.
Not to play devils advocate, but you could tie your boat in such a way as to direct all that material right back at your neighbor :rolleye2:

Based on above posts, this doesn't seem any more proper than dumping silt or spoil off a barge.
I know people who did this years ago and later found their boat/motor cooling system full of sand and pebbles. The reduced water flow led to overheating and big repair bills.
If you overload a barge, it settles in the water and water may seep in between boards that are not fully swollen/watertight. If your pumps can't keep up, there is a lot of pressure to offload weight (rocks/sand) to get more freeboard. Is this a better choice than letting the barge sink with diesel fuel and heavy equipment on board? Rhetorical question. Not to start a side discussion, or an excuse for overloading by mistake or intent. You still have to pay the fine. To me, impounding the barge/crane for a period of time would be more effective than a few thousand dollars in fines.

[TiltonBB]

Not sure I understand your point.

All of the barges I know of on the lake are steel, not wood. There is no chance of seepage and they are watertight already.

[Descant]

I've seen many wooden barges over the years, but you may be right on current construction

[ApS]

Any chance this is the same guy? This was August 6, 2018. We'd really appreciate any photos and information you can provide.
See below...

I don't think it's those guys. It's a new contractor, I've seen the barge a few times I think think it says Northern something.
I would suspect NE Dock & Barge knows better
Nope.

My spies tell me it's Northeast Dock & Barge.

[Onshore]

We have already identified and contacted the parties involved in both incidents. Thank you to everyone who took a moment to try to provide assistance.

[KPW]

See below...


Nope.

My spies tell me it's Northeast Dock & Barge.

.

You may want to scroll back up. Looks like the barge was identified (not Northeast Dock and Barge).

[ApS]

You may want to scroll back up. Looks like the barge was identified (not Northeast Dock and Barge).
I've had a look myself. It's "Northeast Dock and Barge".

Need any more proof? :eek2: They're now flying the Gadsden Flag! :eek:

[Major]

They're now flying the Gadsden Flag! :eek:

.

What's wrong with the Gadsden flag?
14135

[AC2717]

What's wrong with the Gadsden flag?
14135

nothing, second to the stars and stripes, its my second favorite

[KPW]

I've had a look myself. It's "Northeast Dock and Barge".

Need any more proof? :eek2: They're now flying the Gadsden Flag! :eek:

It looks like Northland Construction to me. What am I missing?:)

[Dock and Barge]

As many of you have read and made statements I feel compelled to now respond. As one of the owners of Northeast Dock and Barge yes the site on Forest Road is a site where we are currently performing a permitted repair rebuild for one of our customers. The picture as shown by Darlene Forest the head of the Wetlands Department for New Hampshire DES (shorethings)portrays a large plum of silt as shown on the date in which it was taken. Northeast Docks takes responsibility for doing a permitted repair with turbidity curtains that upon review should have been upgraded prior this repair. Upon being notified by Marine Patrol and Des immediate action which included new turbidity curtains being installed and a stop of work until we felt the situation was contained. We take our responsibility to the customers we serve seriously. Mistakes are made under the best of intentions and we take full responsibility for what happened. That said many there are many projects that take place on this body of water that are not permitted and do not fall even close to the catagory of repair. After 12 years in business I am proud of our record and this is our first interaction when it comes to a infraction. We will strive to do better and will continue to make improvements to how we perform our work. I hope we can all do better as lakefront owners and contractors to better preserve this resource. Best, Luke Freudenberg Northeast Dock and Barge Inc.

[tummyman]

As many of you have read and made statements I feel compelled to now respond. As one of the owners of Northeast Dock and Barge yes the site on Forest Road is a site where we are currently performing a permitted repair rebuild for one of our customers. The picture as shown by Darlene Forest the head of the Wetlands Department for New Hampshire DES (shorethings)portrays a large plum of silt as shown on the date in which it was taken. Northeast Docks takes responsibility for doing a permitted repair with turbidity curtains that upon review should have been upgraded prior this repair. Upon being notified by Marine Patrol and Des immediate action which included new turbidity curtains being installed and a stop of work until we felt the situation was contained. We take our responsibility to the customers we serve seriously. Mistakes are made under the best of intentions and we take full responsibility for what happened. That said many there are many projects that take place on this body of water that are not permitted and do not fall even close to the catagory of repair. After 12 years in business I am proud of our record and this is our first interaction when it comes to a infraction. We will strive to do better and will continue to make improvements to how we perform our work. I hope we can all do better as lakefront owners and contractors to better preserve this resource. Best, Luke Freudenberg Northeast Dock and Barge Inc.


You are a stand up guy...thanks for being so honest and forthright. Too often folks just try to make excuses and dodge the responsibility. Your statement should be commended by all ! Thanks for your honesty and responsiveness.

[barndoor]

Nice to see Northeast take responsibility and apologize for a mistake. We all make them.

[ApS]

What's wrong with the Gadsden flag?

This was an inappropriate use—when "mistakes were made".

nothing, second to the stars and stripes, its my second favorite

• I had one on my bumper—so, "nothing". But the (welcome) post accepting blame and displaying this brand-new flag's legend ("Don't Tread on Me") are in direct conflict. :eek2:

• As for silt-plumes, this shoreline of Winter Harbor has been totally free of invasive plants—including the non-native, "exotic milfoil".
:rolleye1:

>

[raydoe1]

Nice to see Northeast take responsibility and apologize for a mistake. We all make them.

I don't think it was a mistake!
I hired Northeast to do repairs on our docks in a lakefront community and will never hire them again. they are full of false promises and were always taking shortcuts to hurry up and get to their next job resulting in shabby work.They promised me many times they would come back and correct the work, but they never did.
I think they were trying to take another short cut and got caught this time.

[RobertsCove0]

Raydoe,
I live in a lakefront community in Alton and it can be miserable at times dealing with politics at our docks. We have had many projects done over the years and even a well done job can get criticism. To many retired people with nothing to do except complain. We need to refocus this negativity

[ITD]

What about the purported dumping of dredging material in deeper water???

[Onshore]

As many of you have read and made statements I feel compelled to now respond. As one of the owners of Northeast Dock and Barge yes the site on Forest Road is a site where we are currently performing a permitted repair rebuild for one of our customers. The picture as shown by Darlene Forest the head of the Wetlands Department for New Hampshire DES (shorethings)portrays a large plum of silt as shown on the date in which it was taken. Northeast Docks takes responsibility for doing a permitted repair with turbidity curtains that upon review should have been upgraded prior this repair. Upon being notified by Marine Patrol and Des immediate action which included new turbidity curtains being installed and a stop of work until we felt the situation was contained. We take our responsibility to the customers we serve seriously. Mistakes are made under the best of intentions and we take full responsibility for what happened. That said many there are many projects that take place on this body of water that are not permitted and do not fall even close to the catagory of repair. After 12 years in business I am proud of our record and this is our first interaction when it comes to a infraction. We will strive to do better and will continue to make improvements to how we perform our work. I hope we can all do better as lakefront owners and contractors to better preserve this resource. Best, Luke Freudenberg Northeast Dock and Barge Inc.

For the record I am not, nor do I want to be, the head of the Wetlands Department. I am merely the shoreland section supervisor.

D. Forst

[Rusty]

As many of you have read and made statements I feel compelled to now respond. As one of the owners of Northeast Dock and Barge yes the site on Forest Road is a site where we are currently performing a permitted repair rebuild for one of our customers. The picture as shown by Darlene Forest the head of the Wetlands Department for New Hampshire DES (shorethings)portrays a large plum of silt as shown on the date in which it was taken. Northeast Docks takes responsibility for doing a permitted repair with turbidity curtains that upon review should have been upgraded prior this repair. Upon being notified by Marine Patrol and Des immediate action which included new turbidity curtains being installed and a stop of work until we felt the situation was contained. We take our responsibility to the customers we serve seriously. Mistakes are made under the best of intentions and we take full responsibility for what happened. That said many there are many projects that take place on this body of water that are not permitted and do not fall even close to the catagory of repair. After 12 years in business I am proud of our record and this is our first interaction when it comes to a infraction. We will strive to do better and will continue to make improvements to how we perform our work. I hope we can all do better as lakefront owners and contractors to better preserve this resource. Best, Luke Freudenberg Northeast Dock and Barge Inc.

Her last name is Forst, not "Forest"

[Dock and Barge]

What about the purported dumping of dredging material in deeper water???

Not us, and I would not want to speculate.

[Dock and Barge]

For the record I am not, nor do I want to be, the head of the Wetlands Department. I am merely the shoreland section supervisor.

D. Forst

Understood.

[Onshore]

Understood.

No worries. I just don't anyone to get the impression that my scope is bigger than it really is.

[ApS]

As many of you have read and made statements I feel compelled to now respond. As one of the owners of Northeast Dock and Barge yes the site on Forest Road is a site where we are currently performing a permitted repair rebuild for one of our customers. The picture as shown by Darlene Forest the head of the Wetlands Department for New Hampshire DES (shorethings)portrays a large plum of silt as shown on the date in which it was taken. Northeast Docks takes responsibility for doing a permitted repair with turbidity curtains that upon review should have been upgraded prior this repair. Upon being notified by Marine Patrol and Des immediate action which included new turbidity curtains being installed and a stop of work until we felt the situation was contained. We take our responsibility to the customers we serve seriously. Mistakes are made under the best of intentions and we take full responsibility for what happened. That said many there are many projects that take place on this body of water that are not permitted and do not fall even close to the catagory of repair. After 12 years in business I am proud of our record and this is our first interaction when it comes to a infraction. We will strive to do better and will continue to make improvements to how we perform our work. I hope we can all do better as lakefront owners and contractors to better preserve this resource. Best, Luke Freudenberg Northeast Dock and Barge Inc.
How can residents be assured that this WMUR article about a sudden bloom of poisonous Gloeotrichia blue-green algae in Winter Harbor didn't arise from the dredging of Phosphorus sequestered since the last Ice Age—10,000 years ago?

http://nh1website.1kbahw8gd.maxcdn-edge.com/images/news/2018-08/Winter_Harbor_Gross_Bacteria.jpg

From this?


https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14094&stc=1&d=1533838642

[bilproject]

Nice to see Northeast take responsibility and apologize for a mistake. We all make them.

They only took responsibility after they were caught. Their workers had to see the silt but did nothing to replace the booms.

[tis]

Have you seen any of the Gloeotrichia, APS?

[ApS]

I went out sailing yesterday, thinking how bad can a weekend be... ?

Big Mistake! :eek:

Anyway, Gloeotrichia were in the water column about 2-feet down from the surface. Completely visible.

Maybe this is what divers are calling "snow", but it's the start to a maturing population of poisonous "vegetation". :(

.