Property Tax Prepayment benefit possible for some NH residents

[BrownstoneNorth]

The new tax law will cap combined state & local property & income tax deductions at $10,000 in 2018. The law specifically prohibits taking a deduction this year by prepaying 2018 *income* taxes in 2017 but does not mention *property* taxes.

The state of NH allows prepayment of property taxes, BUT only if your *town* has enabled it. The Tax Collector in Wolfeboro told us on the phone today that Wolfeboro doesn't have a property tax prepayment arrangement with the state, so we're out of luck.

The property tax prepayment option is more relevant for people with second homes in NH and are likely to itemize deductions than for year-rounders who pay no income tax and property tax on only one home. Worth checking with your town and/or accountant if you've got one before it's too late if your property + income taxes exceed $10,000.

Here's one article about the NH situation, there are probably others:

http://www.vnews.com/Local-Property-Taxpayers-Rush-To-Preserve-Deductions-14362856

[fatlazyless]

The New Jersey 2-home prayer .......yes, let's all say a prayer for all the poor, poor, poor folks who have a primary home in New Jersey, and a vacation lake home on Lake Winnipesaukee .... let us all pray for them.

Boo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo! ..........and a great big amen for New Jersey! ...... :D:laugh::D

[joey2665]

The New Jersey 2-home prayer .......yes, let's all say a prayer for all the poor, poor, poor folks who have a primary home in New Jersey, and a vacation lake home on Lake Winnipesaukee .... let us all pray for them.

Boo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo! ..........and a great big amen for New Jersey! ...... :D:laugh::D



New Jersey has always limited property tax deductions.


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[joey2665]

The New Jersey 2-home prayer .......yes, let's all say a prayer for all the poor, poor, poor folks who have a primary home in New Jersey, and a vacation lake home on Lake Winnipesaukee .... let us all pray for them.

Boo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo! ..........and a great big amen for New Jersey! ...... :D:laugh::D



I am recommending this strategy for many clients however if you have been subject to AMT in previous years it will more than likely not be a good idea to prepay as it will probably not be deductible.


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[FlyingScot]

The New Jersey 2-home prayer .......yes, let's all say a prayer for all the poor, poor, poor folks who have a primary home in New Jersey, and a vacation lake home on Lake Winnipesaukee .... let us all pray for them.

Boo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo! ..........and a great big amen for New Jersey! ...... :D:laugh::D

If NJ'ers with 2 homes were financing a tax break for the working class or the poor, this might at least be a fair point in a debate. But anybody who has read a paper or watched the news knows that the big winners in this tax bill are already rich.

[Hillcountry]

If NJ'ers with 2 homes were financing a tax break for the working class or the poor, this might at least be a fair point in a debate. But anybody who has read a paper or watched the news knows that the big winners in this tax bill are already rich.

You mean the fake “news”?

[joey2665]

If NJ'ers with 2 homes were financing a tax break for the working class or the poor, this might at least be a fair point in a debate. But anybody who has read a paper or watched the news knows that the big winners in this tax bill are already rich.

As a CPA I completely disagree with your evaluation of the new tax bill. If is a very significant change and although some deductions are going to be limited many that have high income and property tax (NY, MA, CA, NJ residents) already have these deductions limited by AMT. AMT situations will change with the new bill and their tax rates are going down so it could be a wash of lower their tax liability.

[FlyingScot]

As a CPA I completely disagree with your evaluation of the new tax bill. If is a very significant change and although some deductions are going to be limited many that have high income and property tax (NY, MA, CA, NJ residents) already have these deductions limited by AMT. AMT situations will change with the new bill and their tax rates are going down so it could be a wash of lower their tax liability.

You "completely disagree" with my evaluation that the majority of the benefits flow to the wealthy? The corporate tax rate is dropping 14 points, the top tax rate for individuals is dropping by 2 points, the inheritance tax threshold is doubling.

You also "completely disagree" with my evaluation that NJ homeowners are going to get socked? Even though analyses from both parties support this position? Even though you claim only that "many" are impacted by the AMT so it "could be" a wash for some? How many are not?

If you want to argue that the tax bill is good for the country, that's fair game. Or if you are happy that your pass-through CPA firm is about to get one of the biggest breaks of all, that's understandable. But please don't claim CPA expertise, and then assert things that are inconsistent with the numbers.

[Biggd]

I can see where this thread is going, and it isn't good!

[joey2665]

You "completely disagree" with my evaluation that the majority of the benefits flow to the wealthy? The corporate tax rate is dropping 14 points, the top tax rate for individuals is dropping by 2 points, the inheritance tax threshold is doubling.

You also "completely disagree" with my evaluation that NJ homeowners are going to get socked? Even though analyses from both parties support this position? Even though you claim only that "many" are impacted by the AMT so it "could be" a wash for some? How many are not?

If you want to argue that the tax bill is good for the country, that's fair game. Or if you are happy that your pass-through CPA firm is about to get one of the biggest breaks of all, that's understandable. But please don't claim CPA expertise, and then assert things that are inconsistent with the numbers.


I am sorry you disagree with me. I have been a CPA for 30 years and I can go back and forth with you all day on this subject but I have clients to see today so we can agree to disagree and everyone can move on their "Merry" way.

[tummyman]

THIS IS NOT TAX ADVICE!!! But I would suggest you pay attention to "joey2665" posts concerning the AMT. Even though the AMT allowances changed under the 2018 Tax Plan, prepayment of taxes would effect 2017 returns and not see the increase in AMT allowances for 2018. If you paid AMT using IRS Form 6251 in 2016 (go back and look at your 2016 tax return details), it is possible you will also be subject to AMT in 2017. I have been told that AMT adds back all property tax deductions to your adjusted taxable income and would probably negate any attempt to prepay property taxes, since it could result in a higher AMT. I had the same idea to prepay after reading many articles on the subject, but after discussions with my tax advisor, there were so many unknowns that I decided to just pay as I go. If you do not fall into the AMT category, then prepaying may be a Federal tax benefit if your property and state income tax liability in 2018 could exceed the $10,000 ceiling allowance. My above comments are NOT TAX ADVICE as I am not a tax professional. You should check with your tax advisor as to your own specific tax situation for 2017 before making any decisions, as circumstances are unique to each taxpayer. There is still time............ Good luck !

[Major]

I read somewhere (I can't find it now) that 83% of NH residents who pay taxes will pay lower taxes. How is this not a good thing? We should vote out NH's Constitutional representatives, all of whom voted against this bill. Obviously, they do not care about NH's middle class.

Peter G, this is OUR money! Whether rich or poor, I think paying less taxes is a positive for our economy. When businesses do well, taxpayers do well. However, this tax cut needs to go with severe spending cuts, which are desperately required. Washington has gotten too big. There are too many do nothing jobs and ineffective social programs.

[Biggd]

I read somewhere (I can't find it now) that 83% of NH residents who pay taxes will pay lower taxes. How is this not a good thing? We should vote out NH's Constitutional representatives, all of whom voted against this bill. Obviously, they do not care about NH's middle class.

Peter G, this is OUR money! Whether rich or poor, I think paying less taxes is a positive for our economy. When businesses do well, taxpayers do well. However, this tax cut needs to go with severe spending cuts, which are desperately required. Washington has gotten too big. There are too many do nothing jobs and ineffective social programs.That must be "fake" news.:laugh:

[Major]

THIS IS NOT TAX ADVICE!!! But I would suggest you pay attention to "joey2665" posts concerning the AMT. Even though the AMT allowances changed under the 2018 Tax Plan, prepayment of taxes would effect 2017 returns and not see the increase in AMT allowances for 2018. If you paid AMT using IRS Form 6251 in 2016 (go back and look at your 2016 tax return details), it is possible you will also be subject to AMT in 2017. I have been told that AMT adds back all property tax deductions to your adjusted taxable income and would probably negate any attempt to prepay property taxes, since it could result in a higher AMT. I had the same idea to prepay after reading many articles on the subject, but after discussions with my tax advisor, there were so many unknowns that I decided to just pay as I go. If you do not fall into the AMT category, then prepaying may be a Federal tax benefit if your property and state income tax liability in 2018 could exceed the $10,000 ceiling allowance. My above comments are NOT TAX ADVICE as I am not a tax professional. You should check with your tax advisor as to your own specific tax situation for 2017 before making any decisions, as circumstances are unique to each taxpayer. There is still time............ Good luck !

Spoke to my tax advisor, and he stated that I shouldn't prepay MA state tax or NH property tax because of AMT. There are many online calculators that can determine how much you should save under the new tax law. Based on what I made last year, I will save some meaningful dough. AMT kills me, so I am grateful for the new tax plan.

[Major]

That must be "fake" news.:laugh:

I am disappointed that I can't find it! I think it was the Union Leader, but I know I read it. Take it for what it's worth!

[joey2665]

Spoke to my tax advisor, and he stated that I shouldn't prepay MA state tax or NH property tax because of AMT. There are many online calculators that can determine how much you should save under the new tax law. Based on what I made last year, I will save some meaningful dough. AMT kills me, so I am grateful for the new tax plan.

That is extremely sound advice and exactly what I am telling my clients in similar situations to yours

[Biggd]

I am disappointed that I can't find it! I think it was the Union Leader, but I know I read it. Take it for what it's worth!Just teasing. I get a kick out of everyone that uses the "fake news" moniker to support their own views, because what they support is supposedly "real news". :laugh: Trump coined the phrase but most of what comes from his mouth and his tweets is questionable at best.

[MAXUM]

Tax breaks bad for corporations huh?

Tell that to the employees of AT&T, Boeing, Wells Fargo, PNC, Fifth Third Bank Corp, Comcast and others who have announced they are taking a portion of their corporate tax relief to the tune of 1K or more and passing it on per employee as a bonus. Yes this is awful news.....

[FlyingScot]

I read somewhere (I can't find it now) that 83% of NH residents who pay taxes will pay lower taxes. How is this not a good thing? We should vote out NH's Constitutional representatives, all of whom voted against this bill. Obviously, they do not care about NH's middle class.

Peter G, this is OUR money! Whether rich or poor, I think paying less taxes is a positive for our economy. When businesses do well, taxpayers do well. However, this tax cut needs to go with severe spending cuts, which are desperately required. Washington has gotten too big. There are too many do nothing jobs and ineffective social programs.

Major, though we disagree, I respect your position as one that at least has a reasonable amount of reality and thought behind it. My previous comments were only to correct various points of misinformation. We should all be able to acknowledge that this bill hits NJ (and other blue state) property owners hard, and it provides the best benefits for those already rich while giving only modest breaks to the vast majority of the 83% you mention. Also likely to increase the national debt by over a trillion dollars. Except for the debt impact, even Republican leaders in DC do not dispute these points.

[Major]

Major, though we disagree, I respect your position as one that at least has a reasonable amount of reality and thought behind it. My previous comments were only to correct various points of misinformation. We should all be able to acknowledge that this bill hits NJ (and other blue state) property owners hard, and it provides the best benefits for those already rich while giving only modest breaks to the vast majority of the 83% you mention. Also likely to increase the national debt by over a trillion dollars. Except for the debt impact, even Republican leaders in DC do not dispute these points.

Understood. However, I find it funny that when Obamacare was introduced, Democrats proudly announced that each family will save $2,500 on health insurance, like $2,500 was a lot of money. (For the record, I think $2,500 is significant. Also, I will refrain from commenting on the financial effect of Obamacare on health insurance.) Now, the $2000 or so tax break the present tax reform will afford each family is being called "modest." Also, for years conservatives (not Republicans) have been concerned about the national debt, with no word from Democrats. Now, all of a sudden, Democrats are frantic about the debt.

Although I pay MA state taxes, I agree with the Republican approach to punish blue states. Government can succeed with less taxes, and maybe those states should consider eliminating state income taxes, which I think is the goal.

As stated above, the issue is spending, not revenue. Government (U.S. and state) severely needs to be pared back. We have a spending problem.

[Seaplane Pilot]

I am disappointed that I can't find it! I think it was the Union Leader, but I know I read it. Take it for what it's worth!

You mean this one, Major?

http://www.unionleader.com/politics/tax-plan-analyzed-89-of-nh-would-save--20171220


Amazing that the people who pay the most in taxes (the "RICH" according to Peter G.) are getting the biggest benefit from the tax bill. What a country!

And I'm disgusted that Shaheen and Hasson voted against the people of NH. I hope that the people of NH will remember this when they are up for re-election.

[thinkxingu]

Tax breaks bad for corporations huh?

Tell that to the employees of AT&T, Boeing, Wells Fargo, PNC, Fifth Third Bank Corp, Comcast and others who have announced they are taking a portion of their corporate tax relief to the tune of 1K or more and passing it on per employee as a bonus. Yes this is awful news.....Yay! After reaping billions of dollars, they're giving back thousands to the people who made them billions. So very nice of them! (Oh, and most of those companies are somewhere in the 8-10% effective tax rate and have either laid off many people (AT&T) or punished workers for executive actions (Wells Fargo).

Oh, and many, like AT&T and Boeing, are doing it to get in Trump's good graces, NOT because it's the right thing to do. They could've done it all along.

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[Major]

You mean this one, Major?

http://www.unionleader.com/politics/tax-plan-analyzed-89-of-nh-would-save--20171220


Amazing that the people who pay the most in taxes (the "RICH" according to Peter G.) are getting the biggest benefit from the tax bill. What a country!

And I'm disgusted that Shaheen and Hasson voted against the people of NH. I hope that the people of NH will remember this when they are up for re-election.

Yes! I had the percentage wrong. 89%!

[Cobalt 25]

The non-partisan Tax Policy Center has said that by 2027, 83% of this tax bill's benefits will go to the top 1%.

Does that seem right?

The trickle down economics theory has had VERY mixed reviews, many claiming it does not work at all.

Someone said earlier they did not like the way this thread was going. This tax bill is going to have a MAJOR impact on our country's future. Why shouldn't it be discussed?

[Major]

The non-partisan Tax Policy Center has said that by 2027, 83% of this tax bill's benefits will go to the top 1%.

Does that seem right?

The trickle down economics theory has had VERY mixed reviews, many claiming it does not work at all.

Someone said earlier they did not like the way this thread was going. This tax bill is going to have a MAJOR impact on our country's future. Why shouldn't it be discussed?

We should have discussed the tax cut just like we discussed Obamacare. Oh yeah, I forgot, we didn't discuss Obamacare. It was rammed in by the Democrats. Unfortunately, neither party is too interested in discussing anything at this point.

Regarding trickle down, do you own a business? Big or small, businesses create jobs. And it's not just jobs, it's the parts manufacturers, local restaurants, coffee shops, clothing shops, etc. that support businesses. Yes, leaders of large companies and owners of small and medium companies make money. However, in a capitalistic economy, we should be less concerned about how much wealthy people make but more on how we can enable businesses to succeed. The corporate tax cut achieves this objective.

[joey2665]

We should have discussed the tax cut just like we discussed Obamacare. Oh yeah, I forgot, we didn't discuss Obamacare. It was rammed in by the Democrats. Unfortunately, neither party is too interested in discussing anything at this point.



Regarding trickle down, do you own a business? Big or small, businesses create jobs. And it's not just jobs, it's the parts manufacturers, local restaurants, coffee shops, clothing shops, etc. that support businesses. Yes, leaders of large companies and owners of small and medium companies make money. However, in a capitalistic economy, we should be less concerned about how much wealthy people make but more on how we can enable businesses to succeed. The corporate tax cut achieves this objective.



Very well stated Major. If businesses big and small are not successful our economy will collapse inflation with rise and there will be no money to fund Services.


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[Seaplane Pilot]

We should have discussed the tax cut just like we discussed Obamacare. Oh yeah, I forgot, we didn't discuss Obamacare. It was rammed in by the Democrats. Unfortunately, neither party is too interested in discussing anything at this point.

Regarding trickle down, do you own a business? Big or small, businesses create jobs. And it's not just jobs, it's the parts manufacturers, local restaurants, coffee shops, clothing shops, etc. that support businesses. Yes, leaders of large companies and owners of small and medium companies make money. However, in a capitalistic economy, we should be less concerned about how much wealthy people make but more on how we can enable businesses to succeed. The corporate tax cut achieves this objective.

The libs don’t want private entities to succeed; rather, they want government to succeed so they are the ones with control. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that this tax cut will help everyone, either directly or indirectly. And for that matter, it won’t be a pig-in-a-poke as was that fraud Obamacare program.

[Cobalt 25]

"We should have discussed the tax cut just like we discussed Obamacare. Oh yeah, I forgot, we didn't discuss Obamacare. It was rammed in by the Democrats. Unfortunately, neither party is too interested in discussing anything at this point."



Didn't discuss Obamacare? Unless you believe Snopes to be "fake news", consider that they rated "no discussion prior to the passage of Obamacare"- False.

In fact, there were 79 meetings in which 161 amendments offered by Republicans were voted in. Number of public hearings for the Republican's new tax bill? Zero. Input from Democrats? Hah.

Amount of time legislators and the public had to review Obamacare? Months. Amount of time for the new Republican tax bill to be reviewed before voting? After trying to read hand-written crossouts on the bill- hours. Hours.

Trying to equate the events leading up to the passage of the billionaire's tax relief bill and Obamacare is clearly a false equivalency.

[Major]

"We should have discussed the tax cut just like we discussed Obamacare. Oh yeah, I forgot, we didn't discuss Obamacare. It was rammed in by the Democrats. Unfortunately, neither party is too interested in discussing anything at this point."



Didn't discuss Obamacare? Unless you believe Snopes to be "fake news", consider that they rated "no discussion prior to the passage of Obamacare"- False.

In fact, there were 79 meetings in which 161 amendments offered by Republicans were voted in. Number of public hearings for the Republican's new tax bill? Zero. Input from Democrats? Hah.

Amount of time legislators and the public had to review Obamacare? Months. Amount of time for the new Republican tax bill to be reviewed before voting? After trying to read hand-written crossouts on the bill- hours. Hours.

Trying to equate the events leading up to the passage of the billionaire's tax relief bill and Obamacare is clearly a false equivalency.



Now this is fake news!


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[garysanfran]

"The rich don't pay any taxes because they have all these loopholes and deductions"...

I've heard this for decades. Now those "rich" people, who pay no taxes, are getting this big tax break?

Please endorse greater education.

[BroadHopper]

Seems like everyone is counting the chickens before they hatch! As a retired CPA/CMA with 50 years experience, I will chime in when the tax laws hit the books and the changes have hit the IRS website.

I have seen it many times rules and regulations change at the discretion of the IRS after the laws are written. So calm down everyone and let it play out!

Every state interpret their own laws in regard to federal rulings differently. And constituents generally contest the difference in the few years after passing. So let it iron out!

The experience I have/had is mind blowing!

[MAXUM]

"The rich don't pay any taxes because they have all these loopholes and deductions"...

I've heard this for decades. Now those "rich" people, who pay no taxes, are getting this big tax break?

Please endorse greater education.

OK so to show the utter incompetence behind this argument...

1. The rich do not pay taxes because they are using all these loopholes and deductions.

2. Now these rich people who pay no taxes are getting a big tax break.


So I sit here and scratch my head and say hey wait a minute if you're not paying taxes in the first place how can you get a big tax break????

Who are you saying needs an education? Your idea of math doesn't add up

[fatlazyless]

Live free or die - New Hampshire!

Hooray for high property taxes ...... with this new federal, Make America Great Again, 10k max ..... you now have too much house(s) if you is paying more than 10k/yr in property tax!

Hooray for New Hampshire: no state capital gains tax, no state income tax, 5% dividend & interest tax (first $2400/yr exempt, $4800 for joint filers), and no miserable 5-cent soft drink, bottle deposits.

If people want to go waste their money playing Keno-603 ..... good for them.

Make America Great Again ..... over 10k prop tax on your humble abode(s)....you get no help from our very well groomed, :blush:, Uncle Donald.:patriot::banana::patriot:

[Outdoorsman]

OK so to show the utter incompetence behind this argument...

1. The rich do not pay taxes because they are using all these loopholes and deductions.

2. Now these rich people who pay no taxes are getting a big tax break.


So I sit here and scratch my head and say hey wait a minute if you're not paying taxes in the first place how can you get a big tax break????

Who are you saying needs an education? Your idea of math doesn't add up

That was exactly his point; hence, the use of a question mark.

[FlyingScot]

Much as I hate to distract us with BrownstoneNorth's excellent original post--I just spoke with Tuftonboro's tax collector.

Tuftonboro is accepting prepayments. They ask that any prepayments come with a note requesting that the sum be applied to 2018, and they imply that the amount paid in 2017 would be an OK amount to send in.

Also with respect to BrownStoneNorth's OP, I am not so certain that the Wolfeboro collector was correct a few days ago. The local officials, like the rest of the country, do not understand the law fully yet. Their thinking may be evolving now.

As others have noted, the AMT may bite you, and it's always a good idea to check with a professional tax preparer first. But if you can't get your preparer's attention over the holidays, you might want to keep in mind that as long as you leave yourself paying at least $10,000 in property tax in 2018, you do not have anything to lose with respect to the AMT by prepaying.

All of this is new and untested, but there appears to very little downside to doing all that you can over the next week to make sure that your property tax payments in 2018 are no more than $10,000.

[Cobalt 25]

"Now this is fake news!"

Yeah, kinda like I thought. Rather than refute point by point information quoted that one disagrees with, simply label it as fake and move on.

[Major]

"Now this is fake news!"



Yeah, kinda like I thought. Rather than refute point by point information quoted that one disagrees with, simply label it as fake and move on.



I am certain that I could find similar reciprocal numbers for the tax plan. When committees hold meetings, they count the numbers of democrats and republicans who participate, but with no real contribution buy the party not in power. That’s where you got your numbers. They are meaningless. The difference is that most Americans were against Obamacare whereas most Americans are for a tax break.


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[Major]

I am certain that I could find similar reciprocal numbers for the tax plan. When committees hold meetings, they count the numbers of democrats and republicans who participate, but with no real contribution buy the party not in power. That’s where you got your numbers. They are meaningless. The difference is that most Americans were against Obamacare whereas most Americans are for a tax break.


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Politico rated the 100 plus amendments a “half truth” and after reading the whole article I’d rate it mostly false.


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[Cobalt 25]

You say my numbers are meaningless with absolutely no explanation of why.
Here is a quote from Snopes (https://www.snopes.com/aca-versus-ahca/):

"In June and July 2009, with Democrats in charge, the Senate health committee spent nearly 60 hours over 13 days marking up the bill that became the Affordable Care Act. That September and October, the Senate Finance Committee worked on the legislation for eight days — its longest markup in two decades. It considered more than 130 amendments (from Republicans*) and held 79 roll-call votes. The full Senate debated the health care bill for 25 straight days before passing it on Dec. 24, 2009." *editor's note

Does the Snopes information lead you to believe the Democrat's input on the Republican tax bill had as much input from Republicans on Obamacare? Really? And then you tell us that Politico rates something "half truths" but you rate it "mostly false". OK, then, you know better than Politico.

Clearly, Democratic input for the tax bill was zero.

You say most Americans are for a tax break. That's true, but most Americans, as shown by the poll numbers below, want tax breaks to be fair for all Americans, not just the wealthy. And they would like programs like Social Security and healthcare to continue in the future, not just until the deficit gets to a point where something needs to be cut. We know what Paul Ryan would like to cut.

Here some interesting poll numbers concerning American's support for this tax bill: in a Quinnipiac University survey, just 25 percent of voters approved of the plan. Surveys from ABC News/Washington Post, CNN, Morning Consult and YouGov put approval of the plan slightly higher, but all are still at 36 percent or lower. Those numbers are a heckuva lot lower than current support for Obamacare.

[fatlazyless]

So, by paying to your local town clerk in calendar year-2017 a pre-payment for your estimated-2018 property tax that is in excess of $10,000, are you avoiding or evading the intention of this new tax law, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017?

www.unionleader.com/politics/tax-law-has-some-looking-to-prepay-20171224 Union Leader, Dec 23: 'Tax law has some looking to prepay property tax'

Couldn't the IRS issue a ruling that pre-paying 2018-local property tax in 2017 is a design to evade paying your correct 2018-federal income tax ... that is due on April 15, 2019 .... knowing it would probably get challenged in court of law.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Cuts_and_Jobs_Act_of_2017

[MAXUM]

So, by paying to your local town clerk in calendar year-2017 a pre-payment for your estimated-2018 property tax that is in excess of $10,000, are you avoiding or evading the intention of this new tax law, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017?

www.unionleader.com/politics/tax-law-has-some-looking-to-prepay-20171224 Union Leader, Dec 23: 'Tax law has some looking to prepay property tax'

Couldn't the IRS issue a ruling that pre-paying 2018-local property tax in 2017 is a design to evade paying your correct 2018-federal income tax ... that is due on April 15, 2019 .... knowing it would probably get challenged in court of law.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Cuts_and_Jobs_Act_of_2017

So are you really trying to suggest that anyone who makes a financial decision that may benefit them from a tax perspective is engaging in illegal behavior? REALLY?

This happens all the time and why people/businesses itemize their returns and hire CPAs to give them advice on how to manage their finances in such a way to benefit them from a tax perspective. Nothing wrong with that.

So sorry Wal-Mart doesn't offer this service for $2.99.

[fatlazyless]

So sorry Wal-Mart doesn't offer this service for $2.99.

Something you do learn at Walmart ...... to Make America Great Again ..... all the people need to step up to the plate ..... and pay their taxes!

To avoid paying taxes is totally legal,

To evade paying taxes is totally not legal.

So, is prepaying your local property tax a design to avoid, or a design to evade ..... a very big question ..... and one that is unresolved for now .....until it gets the attention of the Internal Revenue Service.

... the www.irs.gov ..... Making America Great Again!

[MAXUM]

Something you do learn at Walmart ...... to Make America Great Again ..... all the people need to step up to the plate ..... and pay their taxes!

To avoid paying taxes is totally legal,

To evade paying taxes is totally not legal.

So, is prepaying your local property tax a design to avoid, or a design to evade ..... a very big question ..... and one that is unresolved for now .....until it gets the attention of the Internal Revenue Service.

... the www.irs.gov ..... Making America Great Again!

The most common means of tax avoidance is accomplished by claiming all your permissible deductions and credits. This is not illegal.

Now if the new law explicitly said you cannot pre-pay your property tax I would agree that would be illegal and could be classified as evasion. However in the absence of that language pre-payment for the purposes of avoidance is perfectly fine in theory. Of course one should check with their tax preparer!

In an interesting turn of events....

New York State will allow residents to pre-pay 2018 property taxes in 2017, in order to take advantage of a bigger deduction before new federal tax laws go into effect, Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced Friday.
In a news conference, Cuomo told reporters he was trying to find ways to help cushion the blow of the tax law, which he said “disproportionately hurts New York State, more than any state in the nation.”

I am stunned that a elected official, in particular a democrat who has railed in the past over not paying one's "fair share" is now purposely maneuvering state law by executive order no less to create a tax loophole for people to take advantage of. How many people will starve or better yet DIE because of this?

[Biggd]

It may be a tax loophole for residents but it would be a tax winfall for the state. The state gets to invest that money all year and collect interest and dividends.

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[Rusty]

IMHO anyone who has a property tax bill of $10,000 or more probably don't give this new tax change much thought. Especially when they can afford to pay that much on a vacation home.

Remember everyone, I said IMHO.

[TiltonBB]

IMHO anyone who has a property tax bill of $10,000 or more probably don't give this new tax change much thought. Especially when they can afford to pay that much on a vacation home.

Remember everyone, I said IMHO.

I would respectfully disagree. People who have made good decisions all of their life that enable them to afford a property with a tax bill in excess of $10,000 probably give their financial decisions a lot of thought. Unless, by accident of birth these people were very fortunate, I think a lot of thought, calculation, and financial planning goes into every major decision.

IMHO :)

[MAXUM]

I would respectfully disagree. People who have made good decisions all of their life that enable them to afford a property with a tax bill in excess of $10,000 probably give their financial decisions a lot of thought. Unless, by accident of birth these people were very fortunate, I think a lot of thought, calculation, and financial planning goes into every major decision.

IMHO :)

You're absolutely correct about first generation money, those that actually made it.

Second and subsequent generations - unless taught otherwise may not have as much appreciation for what they got and may suffer from Paris Hilton syndrome. That however is not the norm.

IMHO - I'm sick and tired of the ever increasing number of free loaders expecting somebody else to work and pay for what they want. This smug notion that oh that person is wealthy they can afford it. Constant whining and crying about the rich, income inequality and so on....well ya know what maybe if you had spent less time crying and feeling sorry for yourself as a victim, quit making stupid financial decisions, and went out and did something for yourself you'd be in a far better position. I've never seen hard work and perseverance ever lead to failure, but complacency and ignorance all but guarantees it.

FYI - I'm not a rich guy but I love rich people, and more so the story of how they got there. I don't curse them I'm inspired by their success. To bad I'm in the minority which is a shame.

[joey2665]

You're absolutely correct about first generation money, those that actually made it.

Second and subsequent generations - unless taught otherwise may not have as much appreciation for what they got and may suffer from Paris Hilton syndrome. That however is not the norm.

IMHO - I'm sick and tired of the ever increasing number of free loaders expecting somebody else to work and pay for what they want. This smug notion that oh that person is wealthy they can afford it. Constant whining and crying about the rich, income inequality and so on....well ya know what maybe if you had spent less time crying and feeling sorry for yourself as a victim, quit making stupid financial decisions, and went out and did something for yourself you'd be in a far better position. I've never seen hard work and perseverance ever lead to failure, but complacency and ignorance all but guarantees it.

FYI - I'm not a rich guy but I love rich people, and more so the story of how they got there. I don't curse them I'm inspired by their success. To bad I'm in the minority which is a shame.



Well said. Many do don’t understand the trials, stress sacrifice and pressure that it can take to attain financial independence. Also just First generations but if I seen it in second and third when previous generations do not guard their assets well. To be bitter of those that sacrificed reached a certain level of wealth is simple arrogance and jealousy.


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[Biggd]

Not all rich people are created equal. Not all got their money from working hard.

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[Outdoorsman]

You're absolutely correct about first generation money, those that actually made it.

Second and subsequent generations - unless taught otherwise may not have as much appreciation for what they got and may suffer from Paris Hilton syndrome. That however is not the norm.

IMHO - I'm sick and tired of the ever increasing number of free loaders expecting somebody else to work and pay for what they want. This smug notion that oh that person is wealthy they can afford it. Constant whining and crying about the rich, income inequality and so on....well ya know what maybe if you had spent less time crying and feeling sorry for yourself as a victim, quit making stupid financial decisions, and went out and did something for yourself you'd be in a far better position. I've never seen hard work and perseverance ever lead to failure, but complacency and ignorance all but guarantees it.

FYI - I'm not a rich guy but I love rich people, and more so the story of how they got there. I don't curse them I'm inspired by their success. To bad I'm in the minority which is a shame.

If I may...
I am far from rich, I made poor (hindsight they were stupid) financial decisions in my younger days. I have failed on several occasions. I have needed a hand to get back on my feet. I am thankful that today, I am in a position to help those that helped me. We were not all brought into this world with a Silver Spoon.

[Major]

Not all rich people are created equal. Not all got their money from working hard.

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There are different surveys out there, but 86-88% of "millionaires," those individuals having a net worth greater than $1,000,000, did not inherit their money, but earned it. I know this is true for relatives in my family.

[thinkxingu]

There are different surveys out there, but 86-88% of "millionaires," those individuals having a net worth greater than $1,000,000, did not inherit their money, but earned it. I know this is true for relatives in my family.There's a sizeable difference between "inheritance" and "starter loans/parental help," etc. There is also a sizeable continuum for "earned" success, however, given the nature of one's birth lottery.

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[Major]

There's a sizeable difference between "inheritance" and "starter loans/parental help," etc. There is also a sizeable continuum for "earned" success, however, given the nature of one's birth lottery.

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"Birth lottery!" :laugh: What a joke. Three out of my four grandparents never made it past the 8th grade. One grandfather worked in a plating factory and the other was a house painter. The grandfather who worked in the plating factory was orphaned at age 8, and joined WWII at 16 to get out of foster homes and the orphanages. I'm sure if he was alive today, he would laugh out loud at the concept of "birth lottery." To take it further, my dad was a painting contractor and my mom was a hairdresser, when she worked. Again, hardly an upper hand on life.

You and others keep on perpetuating the notion that one can't get ahead without being the beneficiary of whatever reason. Nothing is further from the truth. ANYONE can get ahead if one works hard, makes good decisions and maintains a positive outlook. No doubt some have to overcome more obstacles than others, but if you were lucky enough to be born in America, you can make it!

[thinkxingu]

"Birth lottery!" [emoji23] What a joke. Three out of my four grandparents never made it past the 8th grade. One grandfather worked in a plating factory and the other was a house painter. The grandfather who worked in the plating factory was orphaned at age 8, and joined WWII at 16 to get out of foster homes and the orphanages. I'm sure if he was alive today, he would laugh out loud at the concept of "birth lottery." To take it further, my dad was a painting contractor and my mom was a hairdresser, when she worked. Again, hardly an upper hand on life.

You and others keep on perpetuating the notion that one can't get ahead without being the beneficiary of whatever reason. Nothing is further from the truth. ANYONE can get ahead if one works hard, makes good decisions and maintains a positive outlook. No doubt some have to overcome more obstacles than others, but if you were lucky enough to be born in America, you can make it!Wow, you are so far out of touch.

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[Major]

Wow, you are so far out of touch.

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I'm confused. How so?

[Seaplane Pilot]

"Birth lottery!" :laugh: What a joke. Three out of my four grandparents never made it past the 8th grade. One grandfather worked in a plating factory and the other was a house painter. The grandfather who worked in the plating factory was orphaned at age 8, and joined WWII at 16 to get out of foster homes and the orphanages. I'm sure if he was alive today, he would laugh out loud at the concept of "birth lottery." To take it further, my dad was a painting contractor and my mom was a hairdresser, when she worked. Again, hardly an upper hand on life.

You and others keep on perpetuating the notion that one can't get ahead without being the beneficiary of whatever reason. Nothing is further from the truth. ANYONE can get ahead if one works hard, makes good decisions and maintains a positive outlook. No doubt some have to overcome more obstacles than others, but if you were lucky enough to be born in America, you can make it!

You are spot on, Major. The entitlement generation cannot understand the concept of the risk and hard work necessary to succeed. Sad, in my opinion.

[Major]

You are spot on, Major. The entitlement generation cannot understand the concept of the risk and hard work necessary to succeed. Sad, in my opinion.

I get so frustrated when I hear that you just can't get ahead unless . . . . All of us have obstacles to overcome. Nothing good comes easy. I wish everyone understood that.

[TriDad]

Getting back to the original topic... Gilford allows for up to 2 yrs prepayment of property taxes based on your 2017 amount. Depending on your situation, AMT may offset the benefit of doing so.

[thinkxingu]

I'm confused. How so?To begin with, your anecdotal evidence. My father also has an 8th grade education and worked 40 years in maintenance/machining. With that job, and my mother's at a grocery store, I was able to attend college. That couldn't ever happen again--they haven't hired a person at Dad's shop without a college degree in the last twenty years, and mom's pay would've barely increased in the last ten.

Also, to think that success or failure in this country is purely a matter of making the right decisions throws sand in the face of, I dunno, everything we know through sociology and psychology.

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[Major]

That couldn't ever happen again--they haven't hired a person at Dad's shop without a college degree in the last twenty years.

As the great Si Robertson said, we'll have to disagree to disagree.

I personally know the owners of two local machine shops, and a college degree is NOT required. If you're smart, and show promise, the owners of these shops are willing to give you a chance. It is hard to find good machinists.

Also, I don't place much stock in sociology or psychology.

[wadeja]

I stopped by the Moultonborough Town Hall today and learned they will accept up to 2 years prepayment for property taxes based on this years tax bill.

[MDoug]

Anyone know if Meredith accepts prepayment?

[Slickcraft]

NH 5% dividends and interest tax (yes NH does have an income tax).

For those that have to pay the tax, the final estimated tax payment for 2017 is due 1/16/2018. I see no reason why it can't be paid this calendar year.

[Biggd]

There are different surveys out there, but 86-88% of "millionaires," those individuals having a net worth greater than $1,000,000, did not inherit their money, but earned it. I know this is true for relatives in my family.
I don't consider a million dollar neg worth rich today unless you are in your 20's.

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[Biggd]

I think we are confusing rich with making a good living. A million dollars net worth today is not my definition of rich uless you're in your 20's. Then you are well on your way. I would consider upwards of 10 million net worth as being rich today.

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[TiltonBB]

To begin with, your anecdotal evidence. My father also has an 8th grade education and worked 40 years in maintenance/machining. With that job, and my mother's at a grocery store, I was able to attend college. That couldn't ever happen again--they haven't hired a person at Dad's shop without a college degree in the last twenty years, and mom's pay would've barely increased in the last ten.

Also, to think that success or failure in this country is purely a matter of making the right decisions throws sand in the face of, I dunno, everything we know through sociology and psychology.

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Knowing things through "sociology and psychology" is what is wrong with the thought process. How about real life. I agree with Major, anyone who wants to make it and be successful can. The only exceptions are people who have limited ability due to diminished physical or mental capacity.

There are too many people who expect the world to be handed to them. WalMart is hiring first year truck drivers and starting them at $80,000 per year. If you take that job and live a $40,000 per year lifestyle you can save a lot of money and buy some investment property. Or, you can get tattoos, smoke cigarettes, and hang with your friends and use drugs. Maybe you can even have a pregnant girlfriend too. Poor choices are the reason many people have little or no money. Everyone in America has the opportunity to be successful if they make good choices.

I have a friend who is a school teacher and for many years he expressed jealousy when I bought a house or a new car or a new boat. When I suggested that he get a full time job he didn't even know what I was talking about. That tells you all you need to know.

[thinkxingu]

Knowing things through "sociology and psychology" is what is wrong with the thought process. How about real life. I agree with Major, anyone who wants to make it and be successful can. The only exceptions are people who have limited ability due to diminished physical or mental capacity.

There are too many people who expect the world to be handed to them. WalMart is hiring first year truck drivers and starting them at $80,000 per year. If you take that job and live a $40,000 per year lifestyle you can save a lot of money and buy some investment property. Or, you can get tattoos, smoke cigarettes, and hang with your friends and use drugs. Maybe you can even have a pregnant girlfriend too. Poor choices are the reason many people have little or no money. Everyone in America has the opportunity to be successful if they make good choices.

I have a friend who is a school teacher and for many years he expressed jealousy when I bought a house or a new car or a new boat. When I suggested that he get a full time job he didn't even know what I was talking about. That tells you all you need to know.You're both right--everyone has the same exact chances at success. Those people who fail are all just choosing to. Brilliant.

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[TiltonBB]

You're both right--everyone has the same exact chances at success. Those people who fail are all just choosing to. Brilliant.

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Reading comprehension 101: I never said people chose to fail, I said they didn't choose to succeed.

My first job after high school? A gas station, pumping gas. My next job: a different gas station 1 mile down the road. But I had goals and wanted a boat. I even dreamed about a house on Winnipesaukee some day. Starting in 1970 I would cruise the lake in my boat and admire the waterfront homes, wondering how I could ever get there. I had no family there and no property (or money) to inherit.

No one ever gave me 5 cents but I figured out a path to have a boat (and many more) and eventually buy a waterfront home on the lake. I worked a lot of hours, sometimes at three different jobs, trying to get ahead. I am not special, gifted, or lucky, I just decided it was worth the the effort to do the work to get there. And I did. After 14 years on the lake I still get up every morning that I am there and look out at the lake and smile. I am very grateful to have a home there.

I believe that at a young age everyone has the same opportunity. It is the decisions that follow that determine where and how far they will go.

[Major]

Reading comprehension 101: I never said people chose to fail, I said they didn't choose to succeed.



My first job after high school? A gas station, pumping gas. My next job: a different gas station 1 mile down the road. But I had goals and wanted a boat. I even dreamed about a house on Winnipesaukee some day. Starting in 1970 I would cruise the lake in my boat and admire the waterfront homes, wondering how I could ever get there. I had no family there and no property (or money) to inherit.



No one ever gave me 5 cents but I figured out a path to have a boat (and many more) and eventually buy a waterfront home on the lake. I worked a lot of hours, sometimes at three different jobs, trying to get ahead. I am not special, gifted, or lucky, I just decided it was worth the the effort to do the work to get there. And I did. After 14 years on the lake I still get up every morning that I am there and look out at the lake and smile. I am very grateful to have a home there.



I believe that at a young age everyone has the same opportunity. It is the decisions that follow that determine where and how far they will go.



I am grateful that I didn’t have Thinking as a parent. I would not have pushed myself and worked hard to achieve any level of success. What’s the point, the little guy can’t get ahead, right? There’s no point in trying to be a little smarter, work a little harder, do things outside your comfort zone. The deck is stacked against us.


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[Outdoorsman]

I am grateful that I didn’t have Thinking as a parent. I would not have pushed myself and worked hard to achieve any level of success. What’s the point, the little guy can’t get ahead, right? There’s no point in trying to be a little smarter, work a little harder, do things outside your comfort zone. The deck is stacked against us.


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Kind of a low blow, don't you think?

[thinkxingu]

Reading comprehension 101: I never said people chose to fail, I said they didn't choose to succeed.

Poor choices are the reason many people have little or no money.


Hmm, seems close enough to me, but whatever.

How'd you get to your first job? Who taught you how to apply, interview, and fill out paperwork? Who guided you through school? Were you in a safe enough area to not worry about traveling? Who helped you get your license? Who fed and clothed you well enough to receive the education that allowed you to pursue your dreams? Who taught you that you could succeed with hard work? Who taught you how to work with money, to keep a checkbook and bank accounts, to consider loans and financing.

None of those things is natural, they all require investment from people and institutions. If either are lacking, the potential for success is hindered. Basic behaviorism. Oh, wait, psychology and sociology are the reason we're in this mess.

Note that I'm not saying success is impossible, but the truth is--whether or not you want to accept it--is that one's birth situation--parents/family, location, financial circumstances, education, race, etc.-- directly correlates to one's chances of success. Choice is only a reflection of what has been learned.

I apologize to the OP for continuing to be off-topic.

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[Major]

Kind of a low blow, don't you think?



Fair point, but I’m not the one saying that it’s nearly impossible to get ahead, and if you do, it is because of some type of privilege. I’ve seen too many people who came from nothing achieve tremendous success. I believe in making something of oneself.


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[thinkxingu]

Kind of a low blow, don't you think?No worries. Major was born in the forest and all his success is his own doing. No one, and no institution, had any influence on him. He's a pull-yourself-up-by-the-not-given-to-him-boot-straps kinda guy.

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[Rusty]

Hmm, seems close enough to me, but whatever.

How'd you get to your first job? Who taught you how to apply, interview, and fill out paperwork? Who guided you through school? Were you in a safe enough area to not worry about traveling? Who helped you get your license? Who fed and clothed you well enough to receive the education that allowed you to pursue your dreams? Who taught you that you could succeed with hard work? Who taught you how to work with money, to keep a checkbook and bank accounts, to consider loans and financing.

None of those things is natural, they all require investment from people and institutions. If either are lacking, the potential for success is hindered. Basic behaviorism. Oh, wait, psychology and sociology are the reason we're in this mess.

Note that I'm not saying success is impossible, but the truth is--whether or not you want to accept it--is that one's birth situation--parents/family, location, financial circumstances, education, race, etc.-- directly correlates to one's chances of success. Choice is only a reflection of what has been learned.

I apologize to the OP for continuing to be off-topic.

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You have a good head on your shoulders and I agree with your well written reasons that explain what it takes for MOST people to succeed in life.

[Major]

No worries. Major was born in the forest and all his success is his own doing. No one, and no institution, had any influence on him. He's a pull-yourself-up-by-the-not-given-to-him-boot-straps kinda guy.

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No, but I was born to Forrest. The one advantage I had was great parents, but I had to do a lot on my own. I was the one who saw an advertisement in the paper for a day student scholarship at New Hampton School. Yes, my mom drove me there to take the test, but I took the test and won the scholarship. My parents never applied to college, so I was the one who investigated and applied to colleges. I was the one who investigated and applied for an Army ROTC scholarship so that I could go to WPI instead of UNH. No one guided me through the process. Same thing with law school, which my wife and I cash flowed.

We had moral support from my parents, but you are correct in that I did most of it on my own.


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[Outdoorsman]

We had moral support from my parents, but you are correct in that I did most of it on my own.


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So, yeah....

[MAXUM]

Hmm, seems close enough to me, but whatever.

How'd you get to your first job? Who taught you how to apply, interview, and fill out paperwork? Who guided you through school? Were you in a safe enough area to not worry about traveling? Who helped you get your license? Who fed and clothed you well enough to receive the education that allowed you to pursue your dreams? Who taught you that you could succeed with hard work? Who taught you how to work with money, to keep a checkbook and bank accounts, to consider loans and financing.

None of those things is natural, they all require investment from people and institutions. If either are lacking, the potential for success is hindered. Basic behaviorism. Oh, wait, psychology and sociology are the reason we're in this mess.

Note that I'm not saying success is impossible, but the truth is--whether or not you want to accept it--is that one's birth situation--parents/family, location, financial circumstances, education, race, etc.-- directly correlates to one's chances of success. Choice is only a reflection of what has been learned.

I apologize to the OP for continuing to be off-topic.

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What a bunch of psychobabble crap! With all due respect..... thank GOD I didn't go to college or listen to people like you.

I guess I'm a unicorn then right? Believe it or not I managed to do the following having nothing but a high school diploma:

1. Move out on my own at 18 years old with nothing but what I had on my back
2. Learned to live on 75% of my income from day one, put the rest away for a rainy day - NEVER WENT INTO DEBT!!!! Paid cash for everything, if I didn't have cash to buy it I would wait to buy. Only in an emergency would I tap into savings to buy what was absolutely needed.
3. Got married in my mid 20's and shockingly my wife and I built a brand new house in lieu of a fancy wedding (yes a coherent choice we made)
4. Two years after we go married wife quit her job so she could stay home and take care of the kid - from there on out we've lived on a single income

5. Worked my ass off till I could break into the career I have now, that was done by brute force hard work. Nothing was handed to me, I made that happen.
6. Have two properties (one on the lake) and still no debt.
7. Mange my own portfolio and well on my way to retiring early.

What I have NOT done

1. lease a car or buy new cars
2. go on vacations
3. use my property as a cash register
4. pay anyone to do anything for with very few exceptions
5. go out to dinner or out on the town regularly
6. keep up with the jones'

Now how exactly does one accomplish this? Easy, work hard and every decision is all about weighing the pros and cons. It's common sense! If I didn't know I sought out somebody who could advise me. Have I made bad decisions, sure but not many and I'd classify those as taking a known risk that had limited down side should it not pan out which some did not. Am I lucky, I will simply and smugly say no, because every decision was well thought out and no I didn't need to be handheld the entire way to make this happen. But I will say that along my journey there have been plenty who thought what I was doing was crazy.... opinion vary!

[Biggd]

This thread had turned into a forum for people to pat themselves on the back. :(

Someone made a comment earlier about a school teacher not being able to get ahead because they had, what he considered, a part time job. While I agree it's not a job you're going to get rich at, it's a selfless job that deserves more of our respect.
Not everyone puts a dollar value on success.
It's true that choices you make help to determine the outcome of your future but some people have more road blocks to over come with no one to help them through the tough times.
Great family and friends will make your rich beyond the money.
All of us here have a passion for the NH lakes region but that's not everyones dream.
We go through life with the desire to make more money and buy more things. When we are gone no one will give a rats ass how much money you made. They will divide it all up and move on. Sad but true.
Happy New Year everyone! I hope it's a happy and prosperous one for all my forum friends. :cheers:

[TiltonBB]

Hmm, seems close enough to me, but whatever.

How'd you get to your first job? Who taught you how to apply, interview, and fill out paperwork? Who guided you through school? Were you in a safe enough area to not worry about traveling? Who helped you get your license? Who fed and clothed you well enough to receive the education that allowed you to pursue your dreams? Who taught you that you could succeed with hard work? Who taught you how to work with money, to keep a checkbook and bank accounts, to consider loans and financing.
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I grew up in a family of 7 with one car that my parents shared. On the days my mother had the car my father took the bus to work. There was no extra money. My mother even mixed powdered milk in with the regular milk to make it go farther because the grocery budget was a little tight.

How did I get my first job? Not sure how far back to go. Had a morning paper route delivering newspapers before I went to public schools. Worked at the Dairy Queen during high school. First full time job? I walked a mile to the gas station and asked if they needed any help. Fill out paperwork? I guess I learned enough in school to read and write the English language. I saved enough to buy a Buick Special for $250 so I could drive to work.

Who helped me get my license? I paid for Driver Education with my own money and even paid to use their car for the test. When I was 21, I sold my car and used the money to buy a truck tractor, took lessons and got Commercial Drivers License and hauled other people's trailers for mileage pay.

No one taught me I could succeed with hard work. I looked around me and saw what might work and did it. From my 20's though about age 50 I worked 3 jobs, averaging about 80 hours per week.

Who taught me how to keep a checkbook? It isn't rocket science to keep a checkbook but I admit I now use QuickBooks to manage the finances of my commercial and residential investment properties. I guess you would say I have help. I did figure out how QuickBooks works on my own.

In these times of safe spaces and participation trophies many young people have neither the desire nor the will to be very successful. I have friends who are proud that their child is getting a degree in Ancient European History. Uhhh....OK. Good luck with that!

[tbonies]

WOW! 28 I/me/my's! Exactly the biggest issue in this country today!


I grew up in a family of 7 with one car that my parents shared. On the days my mother had the car my father took the bus to work. There was no extra money. My mother even mixed powdered milk in with the regular milk to make it go farther because the grocery budget was a little tight.

How did I get my first job? Not sure how far back to go. Had a morning paper route delivering newspapers before I went to public schools. Worked at the Dairy Queen during high school. First full time job? I walked a mile to the gas station and asked if they needed any help. Fill out paperwork? I guess I learned enough in school to read and write the English language. I saved enough to buy a Buick Special for $250 so I could drive to work.

Who helped me get my license? I paid for Driver Education with my own money and even paid to use their car for the test. When I was 21, I sold my car and used the money to buy a truck tractor, took lessons and got Commercial Drivers License and hauled other people's trailers for mileage pay.

No one taught me I could succeed with hard work. I looked around me and saw what might work and did it. From my 20's though about age 50 I worked 3 jobs, averaging about 80 hours per week.

Who taught me how to keep a checkbook? It isn't rocket science to keep a checkbook but I admit I now use QuickBooks to manage the finances of my commercial and residential investment properties. I guess you would say I have help. I did figure out how QuickBooks works on my own.

In these times of safe spaces and participation trophies many young people have neither the desire nor the will to be very successful. I have friends who are proud that their child is getting a degree in Ancient European History. Uhhh....OK. Good luck with that!

[HellRaZoR004]

I’m shocked why some towns don’t accept pre-payment. Any idea why this might be?

[FlyingScot]

I’m shocked why some towns don’t accept pre-payment. Any idea why this might be?

I think everybody is still trying to figure this out--before last week, what dope would ever dream of prepaying?:look:

Humble advice--if your town says no, ask again politely a day or two later. Or, just mail them a check with a note and keep your fingers crossed. (Worst case, they mail the check back.)

[SIKSUKR]

Thanks to this thread I now have members that I truly look at from a different perspective, both higher and lower. Seems obvious to me which ones fit in which category. You guys rock!:eek::D.

[BrownstoneNorth]

I think everybody is still trying to figure this out--before last week, what dope would ever dream of prepaying?:look:

Humble advice--if your town says no, ask again politely a day or two later. Or, just mail them a check with a note and keep your fingers crossed. (Worst case, they mail the check back.)



Thanks, Peter, but the Wolfeboro Tax Collector confirmed that nothing doing for Wolfeboro because the relevant provision in the new tax law wasn't anticipated. It was good advice to check again, though, because many other jurisdictions around the country — state, country, or town, whichever is/are applicable — have scrambled to take the steps necessary to enable property tax prepayment; in some cases, including my primary residence state, officials who were out of town came home for special sessions to do this.

I don't know if there would have been enough time for the State of NH to process a request from Wolfeboro to make the arrangement but, since the Tax Collector didn't mention that any effort had been made or looked into, I got the impression that the Wolfeboro selectmen couldn't even be bothered to try.

[Rusty]

Thanks, Peter, but the Wolfeboro Tax Collector confirmed that nothing doing for Wolfeboro because the relevant provision in the new tax law wasn't anticipated. It was good advice to check again, though, because many other jurisdictions around the country — state, country, or town, whichever is/are applicable — have scrambled to take the steps necessary to enable property tax prepayment; in some cases, including my primary residence state, officials who were out of town came home for special sessions to do this.

I don't know if there would have been enough time for the State of NH to process a request from Wolfeboro to make the arrangement but, since the Tax Collector didn't mention that any effort had been made or looked into, I got the impression that the Wolfeboro selectmen couldn't even be bothered to try.

The rich in Wolfeboro will just have to work harder to make-up the difference.
Nobody ever helped them get rich, they just did it on their own and they don't want it now.
RIGHT??????

[FlyingScot]

Hot off the presses--here's an article that highlights the volatility of the situation. Unfortunately, it seems to make clear that for many this will be more difficult than expected just hours ago.

Overall, a real hassle for thousands (millions?) who have tried to pay early, and another example of how this law arbitrarily punishes some while rewarding others:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/27/irs-says-taxpayers-trying-to-use-deduction-that-will-be-scaled-back-can-prepay-2018-property-taxes-only-under-limited-circumstances/?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_taxes-626pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.4e15b1b8fdaf

[AB_Monterey]

I’m shocked why some towns don’t accept pre-payment. Any idea why this might be?

There are a few reasons.

The selectmen or the town meeting must vote to allow it. So, if you haven't done that at this late date, there's really no time.

If it were to be approved tomorrow, the town would need to set up a separate acct as those 2018 funds cannot go into the 2017 general fund.

RSA 80:52-a is a good place to start.

To add to the pissing contest already in progress.

1. Death should not be a taxable event. Period.

2. The leftists fear mongering over what happens in 2027 when these tax breaks for the middle class are supposed to expire is just that. No future congress is going to raise taxes on the middle class by letting them expire. Even Obama made all of Bush's tax cuts permanent. Is it possible? Sure, anything is possible. I'm betting that no one is going to go to the third rail on this.

3. We've had the highest corporate tax rates in the world. It's about time they were brought back to the middle of the pack.

[HellRaZoR004]

Hot off the presses--here's an article that highlights the volatility of the situation. Unfortunately, it seems to make clear that for many this will be more difficult than expected just hours ago.



Overall, a real hassle for thousands (millions?) who have tried to pay early, and another example of how this law arbitrarily punishes some while rewarding others:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/27/irs-says-taxpayers-trying-to-use-deduction-that-will-be-scaled-back-can-prepay-2018-property-taxes-only-under-limited-circumstances/?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_taxes-626pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.4e15b1b8fdaf



Wow, that certainly complicates things. Thanks for sharing. So much for that.

[fatlazyless]

Here's a December 27, 2017 advisory from the Internal Revenue Service concerning prepayment and deductability:

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-advisory-prepaid-real-property-taxes-may-be-deductible-in-2017-if-assessed-and-paid-in-2017

Excuse me while I inject a wee bit of political humor here......hmmmm......hmmmm......my my my .... and hmmm .... is time for some serious reading comprehension here ..... :blush: .... "like who knew that redoing taxes could be so complicated .... duh?" ....... just who is that little, puffy, orange emoticon?

For a totally super-duper newspaper report on this IRS advisory, google this: New York Times, Dec 27, 2017: 'I.R.S. Warns That Prepaying Property Taxes Is a Risk' by Ben Casselman.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Overall, a real hassle for thousands (millions?) who have tried to pay early, and another example of how this law arbitrarily punishes some while rewarding others:

Would you be referring to ObamaCare? On second thought, I doubt it because ObamaCare punished just about everyone and rewarded no one that actually has to PAY for healthcare.

[jeffk]

Here's a December 27, 2017 advisory from the Internal Revenue Service concerning prepayment and deductibility ...

Seems pretty clear from the IRS. If the town hasn't given you a tax assessment/bill, any taxes paid ahead without it will fall under the new deductibility limits. If you have the bill in hand and pay by the end of 2017, they will be.

Center Harbor was late getting their tax bills out this year. They aren't "due" until into January 2018. Waiting to pay them until then, for some, might be a bad idea. Just today and tomorrow to pay?

However, since towns don't ASSESS taxes into the future, you can't get around the new federal tax SALT deduction reductions by paying to-be-assessed 2018 taxes ahead of time.

[fatlazyless]

Center Harbor was late getting their tax bills out this year. They aren't "due" until into January 2018. Waiting to pay them until then, for some[, might be a bad idea. ]Just today and tomorrow to pay ?

So, for property owners in Center Harbor with property taxes exceeding $10,000, to qualify for federal deductability on their 2017 federal taxes, they should be making payment to Town of Center Harbor by tomorrow, Friday, Dec 29, 2017.

That's like tomorrow to come up with the payment ...... plus it may have to be received by tomorrow, Friday, by the town as well ......hmmm?

Obviously, I voted for Hillary, but with my property taxes below the $10,000, the movement announcement for U.S.A. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and deporting the ms-13's ......maybe I should start to be liking Donald Trump ....plus his presidency is very entertaining to watch.... plus there's that big fat head of orange-blond hair!:blush: .... huff-puff-puff

[jeffk]

So, for property owners in Center Harbor with property taxes exceeding $10,000, to qualify for federal deductability on their 2017 federal taxes, they should be making payment to Town of Center Harbor by tomorrow, Friday, Dec 29, 2017.

That's like tomorrow to come up with the payment ...... plus it may have to be received by tomorrow, Friday, by the town as well ......hmmm?

When you say "That's like tomorrow to come up with the payment" you seem to be implying that is unreasonable? Normally taxes would be due before the end of December so reasonable people SHOULD have the money set aside already. However, I will bet a lot of people don't know they should have their payment in by Friday. For many of us :D it won't matter since we either use the standard deduction or have less than $10,000 in SALT taxes to deduct.

However, however, if you don't make your payment until 2018 and it gets added to the normal June and December 2018 payments, now the total of the 3 payments MIGHT exceed $10,000 :eek: and cost you in deductions.

When tax law changes like this, some people get caught in the transition.

[Biggd]

So, for property owners in Center Harbor with property taxes exceeding $10,000, to qualify for federal deductability on their 2017 federal taxes, they should be making payment to Town of Center Harbor by tomorrow, Friday, Dec 29, 2017.

That's like tomorrow to come up with the payment ...... plus it may have to be received by tomorrow, Friday, by the town as well ......hmmm?

Obviously, I voted for Hillary, but with my property taxes below the $10,000, the movement announcement for U.S.A. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and deporting the ms-13's ......maybe I should start to be liking Donald Trump ....plus his presidency is very entertaining to watch.... plus there's that big fat head of orange-blond hair!:blush: .... huff-puff-puffYou voted for Hillary, what a shocker!:laugh:

[Hillcountry]

You voted for Hillary, what a shocker!:laugh:

Yeah... but I think maybe he might be ready to join the Trump train! How about it FLL? I have to admit, he is an entertaining president to watch and listen to...kinda like Ol FLL Himself!

[Rusty]

.maybe I should start to be liking Donald Trump ....plus his presidency is very entertaining to watch.... plus there's that big fat head of orange-blond hair!:blush: .... huff-puff-puff

You might get a chance to "liking" the orange man, but you won't get a chance to ever vote for him and you can thank Robert Mueller for that.

[Biggd]

Yeah... but I think maybe he might be ready to join the Trump train! How about it FLL? I have to admit, he is an entertaining president to watch and listen to...kinda like Ol FLL Himself!Trump's been good for my retirement account but on a personal level I think he's an A$$. We got to take the good with the bad, and there's a lot of both with him.

[ishoot308]

Just found out that Gilford is allowing 2 years of prepayments on your property tax...

Dan

[Biggd]

Just found out that Gilford is allowing 2 years of prepayments on your property tax...

DanI'm sure the IRS won't allow that second year. They already said you had to have an assessment in hand. Is Gilford going to issue an assessment beyond next year? Be prepared to be audited if you try to take it.

[ishoot308]

I'm sure the IRS won't allow that second year. They already said you had to have an assessment in hand. Is Gilford going to issue an assessment beyond next year? Be prepared to be audited if you try to take it.

If the town allows it I don't see how it can be an issue. If an assessment happens they will simply bill or credit (yeah right) me the amount of the revised assessment. They can audit me as I don't do anything illegal or underhanded....

Edited to add: right after I posted this my accountant called and recommended I only prepay 1 year. Something about an update the IRS just put out about property tax prepayment.

Dan

[Major]

You might get a chance to "liking" the orange man, but you won't get a chance to ever vote for him and you can thank Robert Mueller for that.

This won't happen if Republicans retain the House and the Senate. Republicans hold a strong edge in the House (239 to 193). Of the 34 seats up in the Senate for 2018, 26 are held by democrats, and there's a strong chance that Republicans will gain some seats.

For those of us who love Trump and what he's doing, this is encouraging.

[Hillcountry]

You might get a chance to "liking" the orange man, but you won't get a chance to ever vote for him and you can thank Robert Mueller for that.

Says who?? The way things are going, Meuller will be shut down...after a year of investigation and nothing to show for it despite spending millions, it’s nothing but a dem witch hunt....Meuller had his little ducks in a row drooling to bring down the President...how has that worked out??

[ITD]

Just remember, you didn't build that. All things good come from the large burdensome government you must support. .......:rolleye1:


Major, you are absolutely correct.

Decisions have consequences, if your life sucks, look inward not outward for the reason. It is absolutely still possible to get ahead in this world, but your choices have a lot to do with it. And remember, there is always someone bigger, better, smarter, younger, older, better off, worse off, you name it. Envy sucks and can ruin your life. Figure out what you have, and put it to use. Live within your means and strive to better yourself. To the people who tell you that you can't because the deck is stacked against you.... tell them to screw, they are just looking for company at the bottom.

[Major]

Just remember, you didn't build that. All things good come from the large burdensome government you must support. .......:rolleye1:


Major, you are absolutely correct.

Decisions have consequences, if your life sucks, look inward not outward for the reason. It is absolutely still possible to get ahead in this world, but your choices have a lot to do with it. And remember, there is always someone bigger, better, smarter, younger, older, better off, worse off, you name it. Envy sucks and can ruin your life. Figure out what you have, and put it to use. Live within your means and strive to better yourself. To the people who tell you that you can't because the deck is stacked against you.... tell them to screw, they are just looking for company at the bottom.

Amen, brother.

[fatlazyless]

Here's a noteworthy tax factoid; supposedly, the state and local tax payment deductions have been in use since 1913, when the federal income tax was enacted.

Will go look for more info on this, plus a link to a believable source;

https://taxfoundation.org/state-and-local-tax-deduction-primer/

and, the federal income tax comes from the 16th Amendment to the U S Constitution which was ratified on Feb 3, 1913;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitut ion so it would seem this new $10,000 limit is a big,

historical tax happening ... like, totally HUGE.
...................

Attention: There must be some who voted enthusiastically for Donald Trump who are now not so enthusiastic with regard to this $10,000-limit of deductibility because it seems to be changing the rules half way through the ball game (sounds like something Ronald Reagan would say).

'Too Much House-2018' ...... what you have if your prop taxes exceed $10,000, starting in 2018 ..... ka-ching!

[AB_Monterey]

The IRS will not allow the deduction for prepayment of 2018 taxes unless they have been accessed. An estimated prepayment will be disallowed.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-advisory-prepaid-real-property-taxes-may-be-deductible-in-2017-if-assessed-and-paid-in-2017

[Biggd]

The IRS will not allow the deduction for prepayment of 2018 taxes unless they have been accessed. An estimated prepayment will be disallowed.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-advisory-prepaid-real-property-taxes-may-be-deductible-in-2017-if-assessed-and-paid-in-2017People in Gilford will get a big surprise after they pay two years in advance.:eek:

[ishoot308]

People in Gilford will get a big surprise after they pay two years in advance.:eek:

Yes, like I said in my previous post, 1 year recommended by my accountant. Do you disagree with that...and if so why? Please explain!

Dan

[AB_Monterey]

It comes down to when you are accessed by your town. If you haven't been accessed for 2018, the IRS will not allow the prepayment toward 2018 as a deduction.

[helpfuldad]

I spoke with Meredith; they will accept prepayments and will apply them to the second (of two) 2018 property tax bills. They must be received by 5PM Friday.

This is without knowing what the IRS may do to counter this strategy or how successful they may be.

[fatlazyless]

You know ..... here's something to consider ..... instead of prepaying today ....... Friday, December 29, 2017 ...... which is probably the last day to pre-pay because it's a friday ...... why don't you all just mail your 2018 property tax pre-payments to the Trump Organization ..... and eliminate the middle man!

You have to give 'The Don' his due! ... :rolleye2:

........................ :patriot::blush::patriot: ...................... fearless Donald
..............

Got too much house in 2018 ....... what to do ..... if you got TooMuchHouse-2018 syndrome and your prop taxes exceed $10,000.....

....lose a bedroom

....lose a bathroom

....lose a sun room

....lose all three; a bedroom, bathroom, sun room ...... all demolished!

....lose some land if you have more than ten acres that's not in 'current use' tax status

...demolish the existing house and replace it with a smaller house, or even a 'cottage' with no real foundation

...liter the yard with an aging pickup truck in effort to lower appraised value.....maybe demolish the garage and replace it with an old pickup with fiberglass cap that gets used for storage ...... ;)

wooda, wooda, wooda, wooda, too much house-2018, boo hoo hoo hoo!:D:laugh::D:patriot:

[Biggd]

More useless drivel from FLL. :rolleye1:

[Doobs41378]

More useless drivel from FLL. :rolleye1:



Are you surprised?


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[MAXUM]

You know ..... here's something to consider ..... instead of prepaying today ....... Friday, December 29, 2017 ...... which is probably the last day to pre-pay ...... why don't you all just mail your 2018 property tax pre-payments to the Trump Organization ..... and eliminate the middle man?

You have to give 'The Don' his due! ... :rolleye2:
..............

Got too much house in 2018 ....... what to do ..... if you got TooMuchHouse-2018 syndrome and your prop taxes exceed $10,000.....

....lose a bedroom

....lose a bathroom

....lose a sun room

....lose all three; a bedroom, bathroom, sun room ...... all demolished!

....lose some land if you have more than ten acres that's not in 'current use' tax status

...demolish the existing house and replace it with a smaller house, or even a 'cottage' with no real foundation

...liter the yard with an aging pickup truck in effort to lower appraised value.....maybe demolish the garage and replace it with an old pickup with fiberglass cap that gets used for storage ...... ;)

wooda, wooda, wooda, wooda, too much house-2018, boo hoo hoo hoo!:D:laugh::D:patriot:

FLL - I love the selective outrage over this.... considering you love the idea of NH having both a sales and income tax? Where is the logic there? I guess if the idea is proposed by those that are of the same political philosophy as you then it's OK but if not it's bad!

Furthermore shame on you to suggest anyone create an yankee yard complete with environmentally unfriendly old pickup trucks that will leech toxic materials into the ground.

[tbonies]

Says who?? The way things are going, Meuller will be shut down...after a year of investigation and nothing to show for it despite spending millions, it’s nothing but a dem witch hunt....Meuller had his little ducks in a row drooling to bring down the President...how has that worked out??

Love the know it alls. The independent investigator is a high integrity guy. Let’s see how it plays out. I think he’s spent about 4 minutes of interest accumulation on the national debt. Let’s stop with the faux outrage.


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[fatlazyless]

Here's an eye witness, man-on-the-street , American Eye on Main St view, snapped in Meredith, NH in July, 2018 .....

First, a step back to 2016: So, what were people wearing for baseball caps now that summer was here back in July, 2016 ....... it's the red baseball cap emblazoned "Make America Great Again!".

Same question, two years later .... so, what are people wearing for baseball caps now that summer is here in July, 2018 ......it's the red baseball cap emblazoned "Too Much House!".

Ever since January 1, 2018, when we lost our over-$10,000 federal tax deduction for sales-income & property tax ..... we have "Too Much House!"

Here's a similar thought ..... picture this ..... you catch sight on a new, red bumper sticker on the back of a Porsche suv ......and what does it say ..... "Too Much House!"

[Biggd]

Here's an eye witness, man-on-the-street , American Eye on Main St view, snapped in Meredith, NH in July, 2018 .....

First, a step back to 2016: So, what were people wearing for baseball caps now that summer was here back in July, 2016 ....... it's the red baseball cap emblazoned "Make America Great Again!".

Same question, two years later .... so, what are people wearing for baseball caps now that summer is here in July, 2018 ......it's the red baseball cap emblazoned "Too Much House!".

Ever since January 1, 2018, when we lost our over-$10,000 federal tax deduction for sales-income & property tax ..... we have "Too Much House!"

Here's a similar thought ..... picture this ..... you catch sight on a new, red bumper sticker on the back of a Porsche suv ......and what does it say ..... "Too Much House!"You poor lonely man!

[fatlazyless]

You poor lonely man!

.....me so poor.....me so lonely ...... wooda wooda wooda......boohoo boohoo boohoo ......think I will go jump in the lake and have a good cry ......oopsie......lake is now frozen solid ice .....so, cannot even do that.... boohoo......will have to settle for ice fishing on thin ice .....do I have to wait until January 1 for the trout and salmon ice season to be legal.....plus get a $47 (45 & 2-handling fee) 2018-fishing license.....:confused: poor me! ......maybe I'll catch a happening fish and place it into the outdoor 104-degree hot tub!

[MAXUM]

Please let the F&G catch you pulling a salmon through the ice! I want to see that on North Woods Law. Also be sure to have on your noodle belt for added viewing pleasure.

It's OK that ticket you get MAY be tax deductible but only for this year - I would suggest prepayment just in case.

Now THAT would make all of America great again to see that! :emb:

[ITD]

.....me so poor.....me so lonely ...... wooda wooda wooda......boohoo boohoo boohoo ......think I will go jump in the lake and have a good cry ......oopsie......lake is now frozen solid ice .....so, cannot even do that.... boohoo......will have to settle for ice fishing on thin ice .....do I have to wait until January 1 for the trout and salmon ice season to be legal.....plus get a $47 (45 & 2-handling fee) 2018-fishing license.....:confused: poor me! ......maybe I'll catch a happening fish and place it into the outdoor 104-degree hot tub!

Less, have a Happy New Year!!!

[fatlazyless]

Starting tomorrow, January 1, 2018, will the new $10,000 federal income tax limit for deducting your state's income-sales-property tax payments be a-changing the way homeowners think about their very high priced Governor's Island mega million dollar homes?

Maybe Governor's Island will become Governor's Island aka 'too much house' Island?

...................... :patriot::blush::patriot: .................... fearless Donald

[Seaplane Pilot]

Starting tomorrow, January 1, 2018, will the new $10,000 federal income tax limit for deducting your state's income-sales-property tax payments be a-changing the way homeowners think about their very high priced Governor's Island mega million dollar homes?

Maybe Governor's Island will become Governor's Island aka 'too much house' Island?

...................... :patriot::blush::patriot: .................... fearless Donald

Less, something tells me that the majority of the property owners on Governors Island have taxable incomes that put them above the threshold for being able to deduct any property taxes anyway. Furthermore, the actual tax dollar savings for high income individuals under the new tax plan will far exceed the minimal loss of not being able to deduct anything over $10,000 on property taxes. Therefore, the joke is on you! MAGA!!!:patriot::patriot:

[MAXUM]

Less, something tells me that the majority of the property owners on Governors Island have taxable incomes that put them above the threshold for being able to deduct any property taxes anyway. Furthermore, the actual tax dollar savings for high income individuals under the new tax plan will far exceed the minimal loss of not being able to deduct anything over $10,000 on property taxes. Therefore, the joke is on you! MAGA!!!:patriot::patriot:

Less supports massive tax breaks for the wealthy..... if he didn't he'd be cheering the 10K write off cap. For political purposes in this case it's OK to be hypocritical.

Now if Hillary or Bernie were doing the same thing, it'd be down right brilliant and he'd be a huge fan.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Less supports massive tax breaks for the wealthy..... if he didn't he'd be cheering the 10K write off cap. For political purposes in this case it's OK to be hypocritical.

Now if Hillary or Bernie were doing the same thing, it'd be down right brilliant and he'd be a huge fan.

You are correct, Maxum. I saw this the other day and had to laugh:

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=9997

[FlyingScot]

Less supports massive tax breaks for the wealthy..... if he didn't he'd be cheering the 10K write off cap. For political purposes in this case it's OK to be hypocritical.

Now if Hillary or Bernie were doing the same thing, it'd be down right brilliant and he'd be a huge fan.

You misstate the case when you suggest FLL and other Democrats are hypocritical on this. (So blatantly, I'm surprised he didn't call you on it the first time.)

While it's true that many Democrats at all income levels often support higher taxes on the rich, those tax proposals are generally to fund lower taxes for the poor, expanded social programs, or long-term investments.

This tax bill does not do those things. Instead it sends the extra money in question to other rich people and corporations, while creating a huge hole in the national debt.

Actually, if there's any hypocrisy around this bill, it's the Republicans' abandonment of conservative principles on the national debt.

[MAXUM]

You misstate the case when you suggest FLL and other Democrats are hypocritical on this. (So blatantly, I'm surprised he didn't call you on it the first time.)

While it's true that many Democrats at all income levels often support higher taxes on the rich, those tax proposals are generally to fund lower taxes for the poor, expanded social programs, or long-term investments.

This tax bill does not do those things. Instead it sends the extra money in question to other rich people and corporations, while creating a huge hole in the national debt.

Actually, if there's any hypocrisy around this bill, it's the Republicans' abandonment of conservative principles on the national debt.

Where was the outrage and concern over the national debt last 8 years? Oh I guess if your are funding entitlements it's OK.... but I would argue since when does giving anyone something they never paid for directly help them? Those people need a job not another check from Uncle Sam in the mail.

Since we have a progressive tax system in place the higher income brackets pay the most in taxes therefore.... it only stands to reason that any cut in the marginal tax rates across the board will favor those who pay the most. Nothing wrong with that.

That is of course if you actually believe the above statement to be true. Many do not in fact many including the most "celebrated" democrats seem to claim that the wealthy - individuals and businesses pay little or no taxes. That in and of itself shows their utter incompetence. If that is the case, seems that this doesn't benefit the rich at all since they pay nothing in the first place.

So which is it?

In regards to the national debt, there you and I do agree on something, I do not like the fact this country continues to operate in a way where the debt continues to rise however we likely disagree on how to fix that. There is no way to tax into oblivion the "rich" to get us out of the situation we find ourselves in. It will just further weaken our economy and kill more jobs. We need to get this country moving again, get the economy fired back up and make this US based businesses on the world stage more competitive. The only way to do that is to reduce the tax burden on the job creators and create incentive to keep jobs here which will broaden the tax base and reduce the numbers on welfare. We cannot continue to bleed jobs to "low cost" countries and not pay a long term price for that which we already are. So I look at this as an "investment" in the good people and companies of the USA. I guess we'll agree to disagree on who best to receive the benefit of those tax cuts. I prefer to see them target those that will hire more people and innovate new products and services.


Just my .02 cents (tax free)

[ITD]

Where was the outrage and concern over the national debt last 8 years? Oh I guess if your are funding entitlements it's OK.... but I would argue since when does giving anyone something they never paid for directly help them? Those people need a job not another check from Uncle Sam in the mail.

Since we have a progressive tax system in place the higher income brackets pay the most in taxes therefore.... it only stands to reason that any cut in the marginal tax rates across the board will favor those who pay the most. Nothing wrong with that.

That is of course if you actually believe the above statement to be true. Many do not in fact many including the most "celebrated" democrats seem to claim that the wealthy - individuals and businesses pay little or no taxes. That in and of itself shows their utter incompetence. If that is the case, seems that this doesn't benefit the rich at all since they pay nothing in the first place.

So which is it?

In regards to the national debt, there you and I do agree on something, I do not like the fact this country continues to operate in a way where the debt continues to rise however we likely disagree on how to fix that. There is no way to tax into oblivion the "rich" to get us out of the situation we find ourselves in. It will just further weaken our economy and kill more jobs. We need to get this country moving again, get the economy fired back up and make this US based businesses on the world stage more competitive. The only way to do that is to reduce the tax burden on the job creators and create incentive to keep jobs here which will broaden the tax base and reduce the numbers on welfare. We cannot continue to bleed jobs to "low cost" countries and not pay a long term price for that which we already are. So I look at this as an "investment" in the good people and companies of the USA. I guess we'll agree to disagree on who best to receive the benefit of those tax cuts. I prefer to see them target those that will hire more people and innovate new products and services.


Just my .02 cents (tax free)

Why are CBO projections never checked after the fact? The Reagan tax cuts and the GW Bush tax cuts both resulted in substantial increases in taxes collected, this is easily checked. Deficits are a spending problem not a collection problem.

The other issue I have with these tax discussions on fairness is that we have allowed the progressives and media to shape the discussion. These cuts are termed unfair because people who pay little or no taxes get little or no money back when you cut taxes because they are not paying the taxes being cut in the first place. We are on an unsustainable path with these deficits and the solution is not tax increases, the solution is spending control.

[Biggd]

You wish, I doubt it will change the buying habits of the top 1% one bit.

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[Garcia]

What people forget about the Reagan tax cuts are two fold. First, they did not generate the increased revenue hoped for and deficits grew (and yes, I know that spending is an issue in and of itself, but it is worth noting that politicians and the people who put them into office do not have the stomach to seriously cut spending, but that is a different conversation). Second, by the time his presidency was over he had increased taxes through broadening the tax base and closing so called loopholes. Economists on both sides of the aisle, if you want to believe them, support this.

The bigger issue for me is the deficit these tax cuts bring. They will ultimately do more harm than good because deficits matter - and not only do the tax cuts not pay for themselves, they significantly add to the deficit. We can argue the point, as can politicians, but the problem won’t become apparent to the masses for years - at which point those in office will come up with another short-term, feel good fix and kick the can down the road yet again. What’s the answer? I don’t know. I will benefit from the new tax cuts, but I fear the long term effect on the country.

[MAXUM]

You wish, I doubt it will change the buying habits of the top 1% one bit.

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There is an important distinction to make here, it's belongs to them and what they do with it, spend it or not is up to them not you, me or the federal government! However this does beg the question, if they don't spend it what do they do with it that is so harmful? After all they are either saving it or more likely investing it. Where is the down side to that? In fact whether saved or invested they will be taxed on gains anyways.

What fuels the economy isn't all about retail sales!

[jeffk]

There is an important distinction to make here, it's belongs to them and what they do with it, spend it or not is up to them not you, me or the federal government! However this does beg the question, if they don't spend it what do they do with it that is so harmful? After all they are either saving it or more likely investing it. Where is the down side to that? In fact whether saved or invested they will be taxed on gains anyways.

What fuels the economy isn't all about retail sales!

No, no. I am sure Bill Gates has all his money stuffed into mattresses in his huge house so it does no good to the economy. /s

[thinkxingu]

No, no. I am sure Bill Gates has all his money stuffed into mattresses in his huge house so it does no good to the economy. /sActually, a huge portion of Gates' money is invested in education because he understands that not everyone is born with the same opportunities.

"Limited opportunity for too many young people results in dramatically lower life prospects for them and a worse quality of life for all of us." --Gates Foundation

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[jeffk]

He can use HIS money however he wishes. Money, BTW, that was generated from business activity and will probably increase as the economy grows. He can then give that new money away if he wishes to.

The key word is INVESTED. People are hired, buildings are rented or built, computers and supplies are ordered, other products are purchased, they pay electric, water and sewerage bills, and building maintenance. People working on the project travel, stay at hotels, go to restaurants to eat. The workers spin off their own economic activity; paying taxes, buying houses, cars, boats, some living the lives of the "5%". The ultimate outcome of Gate's intent, if successful, is people who are smart enough to work at yet other businesses and pay their taxes, housing costs, etc. from their earnings.

In short, even though the purpose of his education efforts may be "charitable", it carries out business activities to achieve them. Further, every dollar invested, if you follow it back to its source, comes FROM a business activity. The outcome is people prepared to WORK in society, some for Gate's companies.

COMMERCE undergirds EVERYTHING.

The raw goal of commerce is to make more money. That money is used to fuel the innumerable and dynamic goals of the billions of people on the planet. No money, the goals suffer and even fail, even to the levels of individual starvation. Unchained commerce yields more money for all purposes, even for those who want to invest it in education.

[FlyingScot]

There is an important distinction to make here, it's belongs to them and what they do with it, spend it or not is up to them not you, me or the federal government! However this does beg the question, if they don't spend it what do they do with it that is so harmful? After all they are either saving it or more likely investing it. Where is the down side to that? In fact whether saved or invested they will be taxed on gains anyways.

What fuels the economy isn't all about retail sales!

Maxum--an excellent question and a great point. I agree that it's all about retail sales.

As BiggD points out, the rich save much more than others as a percent of income. There's plenty of data on this, and it all points in the same direction.
As you can see in the link below, the middle quintile saves 11% of their income and the top 1% saves 51% of their income. So if a trillion dollar tax cut goes to the middle class, $890 billion gets spent, driving retail sales. But if we give a trillion dollar break to the top 1%, only $490 billion gets spent retail. So the best way to drive retail is to give the tax break to those still struggling financially.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-savings-rate-by-income-level-2013-3

[ITD]

Yes, yes, I think I see now, the rich steal all the poor people's money, that's how they get rich, makes perfect sense. :rolleye2:

[jeffk]

Maxum--an excellent question and a great point. I agree that it's all about retail sales.

As BiggD points out, the rich save much more than others as a percent of income. There's plenty of data on this, and it all points in the same direction.
As you can see in the link below, the middle quintile saves 11% of their income and the top 1% saves 51% of their income. So if a trillion dollar tax cut goes to the middle class, $890 billion gets spent, driving retail sales. But if we give a trillion dollar break to the top 1%, only $490 billion gets spent retail. So the best way to drive retail is to give the tax break to those still struggling financially.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-savings-rate-by-income-level-2013-3

Many of those truly struggling financially don't pay income taxes anyway so a "break" for them does nothing for them or the economy.

As to thinking that invested money doesn't help retail, that is naive. Companies that receive investments are able to hire more people or raise salaries or buy equipment (allowing other companies to hire people) to increase productivity that then allows them to raise salaries. Many of the recipients of those increases are NOT rich and spend the extra money they just got. We just had a banner sales year for Christmas. That was very likely fueled simply by the anticipation of better economic (business) times including personal benefits improving. Those $1000 bonuses we are reading about are buying TVs, home improvements, etc. Those bonuses are fueled by tax breaks and by anticipation of new investment money coming in from rich people who got tax breaks.

Investment is an essential part of the economy and directly and indirectly allows people to buy things.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Yes, yes, I think I see now, the rich steal all the poor people's money, that's how they get rich, makes perfect sense. :rolleye2:

Bingo! A perfect argument for mandatory redistribution of wealth. :rolleye2:

[MAXUM]

Maxum--an excellent question and a great point. I agree that it's all about retail sales.

As BiggD points out, the rich save much more than others as a percent of income. There's plenty of data on this, and it all points in the same direction.
As you can see in the link below, the middle quintile saves 11% of their income and the top 1% saves 51% of their income. So if a trillion dollar tax cut goes to the middle class, $890 billion gets spent, driving retail sales. But if we give a trillion dollar break to the top 1%, only $490 billion gets spent retail. So the best way to drive retail is to give the tax break to those still struggling financially.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-savings-rate-by-income-level-2013-3

No what I said is it is NOT all about retail sales. If it were there would be no need for venture capitol firms and the stock market for that matter.

Investment is the lifeblood of all business.

However I'm a bit shocked that you would favor big business. Odd all things considered. Think about it if you give money to those that are going to go out and immediately spend it who does that favor? Ah the already established "big businesses" that your political philosophy regularly chastises. What about the small guy, maybe the startup that is working on something new and innovative who may not be operating on a profit and strictly on investment capitol. Guess those companies and all their employees don't matter! Who do you think funds these? Not the guy living paycheck to paycheck.

Dividing wealth doesn't create more, and when it's all gone then what?

[Garcia]

Here are some facts - over the past couple decades, the income gap between those at the top and the rest of the population has grown exponentially. The national debt continues to increase at rates that are not sustainable. The biggest corporations and their leadership have had the most profitable period of growth in modern times.

These tax cuts are not going to fix any of the above. What do they mean for me? I will make out well. My income will go up allowing me to continue to make smart investments. Companies I invest in will, I hope, buy back stock and increase their dividends which will help me build more wealth. I already have plenty of money for consumer goods (and have too much "stuff" already) so my money will not be spent at the local Walmart. I think time will show there are more of the tax cut recipients like me than there are those who are increasing wages. Reagan's trickle down economics didn't work in the 80's and it won't work today. The Just Say No to drugs campaign was a similar failure, but I bet that gets resurrected as well!

[FlyingScot]

No what I said is it is NOT all about retail sales. If it were there would be no need for venture capitol firms and the stock market for that matter.

Investment is the lifeblood of all business.

However I'm a bit shocked that you would favor big business. Odd all things considered. Think about it if you give money to those that are going to go out and immediately spend it who does that favor? Ah the already established "big businesses" that your political philosophy regularly chastises. What about the small guy, maybe the startup that is working on something new and innovative who may not be operating on a profit and strictly on investment capitol. Guess those companies and all their employees don't matter! Who do you think funds these? Not the guy living paycheck to paycheck.

Dividing wealth doesn't create more, and when it's all gone then what?

Sorry for misquoting you.

Starting again from your post--I've spent over 20 years in venture capital, both as an investor and an entrepreneur putting in every spare penny of cash flow. From an venture investor perspective, this tax bill is friendly in that in maintains the carried interest loophole that so many in both parties dislike as unfair, and it opens up a new pass-through entity tax break. Yea! We'll be even richer!

But for an entrepreneur at a venture-backed company, there is very little here to like. They could have benefitted from accelerated depreciation on capital expenditures, or a tax credit for new job creation, just for example. And as someone who's been on both sides on the investor-entrepreneur table, it makes me laugh to think that tax breaks for the VCs will make entrepreneurs lives easier.

Garcia has it right on the destination for the tax savings.

[Outdoorsman]

Many of those truly struggling financially don't pay income taxes anyway so a "break" for them does nothing for them or the economy.

This right here.
No way should ANYONE get welfare for life because they CHOSE to have 12-15 kids and not work! We need to define a shorter term for welfare recipients. After 2 kids.... You are out of the program. You do not get 4, 5, 7 tries.

As to thinking that invested money doesn't help retail, that is naive. Companies that receive investments are able to hire more people or raise salaries or buy equipment (allowing other companies to hire people) to increase productivity that then allows them to raise salaries. Many of the recipients of those increases are NOT rich and spend the extra money they just got. We just had a banner sales year for Christmas. That was very likely fueled simply by the anticipation of better economic (business) times including personal benefits improving. Those $1000 bonuses we are reading about are buying TVs, home improvements, etc. Those bonuses are fueled by tax breaks and by anticipation of new investment money coming in from rich people who got tax breaks.

Investment is an essential part of the economy and directly and indirectly allows people to buy things.

Oh my :eek:

[Flylady]

This right here.
No way should ANYONE get welfare for life because they CHOSE to have 12-15 kids and not work! We need to define a shorter term for welfare recipients. After 2 kids.... You are out of the program. You do not get 4, 5, 7 tries.



Oh my :eek:

Outdoorman....where do you get your informtion? As I see it the most conservative Republicans are pro-birth, not pro-life. Women must have children, but no one cares what happens to those children once born. Seems to me if the government does not want to support children they should not force women to have them:)

[Rusty]

Outdoorman....where do you get your informtion? As I see it the most conservative Republicans are pro-birth, not pro-life. Women must have children, but no one cares what happens to those children once born. Seems to me if the government does not want to support children they should not force women to have them:)

You are spot on!

Our leaders profess to be Christians and probably know what the bible says about having children, here is one of many verses that are in the bible:

"Psalm 127:3-5
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate."

[MAXUM]

Sorry for misquoting you.

Starting again from your post--I've spent over 20 years in venture capital, both as an investor and an entrepreneur putting in every spare penny of cash flow. From an venture investor perspective, this tax bill is friendly in that in maintains the carried interest loophole that so many in both parties dislike as unfair, and it opens up a new pass-through entity tax break. Yea! We'll be even richer!

But for an entrepreneur at a venture-backed company, there is very little here to like. They could have benefitted from accelerated depreciation on capital expenditures, or a tax credit for new job creation, just for example. And as someone who's been on both sides on the investor-entrepreneur table, it makes me laugh to think that tax breaks for the VCs will make entrepreneurs lives easier.

Garcia has it right on the destination for the tax savings.

I won't begin to say that bill is perfect, a lot more could have been done and certainly some things differently - you do make some good points too in highlighting it's shortcomings, however as a whole I believe it will be beneficial. Time will tell what's done is done.

We could probably argue the merits of various aspects of this till we crash the web master's server for chewing up to much space! However I think this illustrates one thing, and I nod my head to you and others who have made your points eloquently and in a reasonable manner, opinions vary! It's nice to have a rational discussion about them from varying points of view in a civilized manner. To bad the fruitcakes in DC can't do the same, and that I think it something we all can agree on!!!

[MAXUM]

You are spot on!

Our leaders profess to be Christians and probably know what the bible says about having children, here is one of many verses that are in the bible:

"Psalm 127:3-5
Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate."

True - but alas the bible also says this!

Second Thessalonians 3:10-12 “For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.”

[TiltonBB]

Outdoorman....where do you get your informtion? As I see it the most conservative Republicans are pro-birth, not pro-life. Women must have children, but no one cares what happens to those children once born. Seems to me if the government does not want to support children they should not force women to have them:)
The government is not forcing women to have children. There are plenty of choices, among them birth control or abstinence. "Women must have children"? That is a choice, not a mandatory requirement for anyone.

Welfare was once a safety net but it has become a hammock and a way of life rife with fraud that continues through generations. The government must come up with a way to wean people off of it rather than continue to make it easy and more lucrative than having a job.

Section 8 housing is another widely abused government handout. As a landlord, I have had approximately 35 tenants who have had their rent paid or subsidized by the government. After getting to know their situation I would say 5 of them needed some help, the rest were scamming the system. Despite making numerous reports about the fraud, I could get no action from anyone in the system. The people administering the welfare programs depend on clients for job security. They have no interest in cleaning it up.

[ITD]

Outdoorman....where do you get your informtion? As I see it the most conservative Republicans are pro-birth, not pro-life. Women must have children, but no one cares what happens to those children once born. Seems to me if the government does not want to support children they should not force women to have them:)

I hear this canard all the time, I'm always amazed at the convolutions people will twist themselves into and the lies they make up to justify killing babies. I see variations on the above progressive talking point all the time and it is very dishonest. The people who repeat it are either dishonest themselves or very misinformed.

[joey2665]

This train has certainly jumped off the tracks.


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[TiltonBB]

This train has certainly jumped off the tracks.


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Agreed. But the subject and discussion revolved around taxes and where this thread has gone is certainly related to taxes.

If anyone would like an example of how misinformed people are about taxes being the source of funds for government you need only listen to this. The end is astonishing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85hzg2SMF9U

[joey2665]

Uneducated and misinformed to say the least. It is a shame there are many like this. No matter what side of the fence you reside on everyone should at least be educated enough to have an intelligent discussion and form an opinion based on facts.


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[Biggd]

When people start quoting the bible in a thread about taxes, I,m outa here!

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[Rusty]

True - but alas the bible also says this!

Second Thessalonians 3:10-12 “For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.”

I agree with that quote but it doesn't take away from the fact that we will always take care of children whether it's from taxes or charity.

Supposedly more clarity and guidance about the new tax bill is going to come out in the next few weeks.

[Garcia]

Just curious - how many people are aware that over 90% of all entitlement money goes to seniors, the disabled, or members of working households? Not saying reforms aren't needed, they are, but the idea that the vast majority of entitlement spending goes to able-bodied people who choose not to work is misinformed and quite wrong.

[FlyingScot]

I won't begin to say that bill is perfect, a lot more could have been done and certainly some things differently - you do make some good points too in highlighting it's shortcomings, however as a whole I believe it will be beneficial. Time will tell what's done is done.

We could probably argue the merits of various aspects of this till we crash the web master's server for chewing up to much space! However I think this illustrates one thing, and I nod my head to you and others who have made your points eloquently and in a reasonable manner, opinions vary! It's nice to have a rational discussion about them from varying points of view in a civilized manner. To bad the fruitcakes in DC can't do the same, and that I think it something we all can agree on!!!

Agreed--Cheers!

[ITD]

Just curious - how many people are aware that over 90% of all entitlement money goes to seniors, the disabled, or members of working households? Not saying reforms aren't needed, they are, but the idea that the vast majority of entitlement spending goes to able-bodied people who choose not to work is misinformed and quite wrong.

Hmmm, your numbers sound off, but even so, 10% fraud rate is pretty substantial and a great place to start cutting.

[Garcia]

Hmmm, your numbers sound off, but even so, 10% fraud rate is pretty substantial and a great place to start cutting.

My numbers are on the conservative side - and while yes there is fraud and waste, one cannot simply assume that every able bodied person on welfare is abusing the system. A starting point for reform? Yes. But, a drop in the bucket when we look at the overall cost and the impact on the national debt.

[TiltonBB]

Just curious - how many people are aware that over 90% of all entitlement money goes to seniors, the disabled, or members of working households? Not saying reforms aren't needed, they are, but the idea that the vast majority of entitlement spending goes to able-bodied people who choose not to work is misinformed and quite wrong.

Entitlement Programs also include Social Security, Medicare and Unemployment insurance. I am not against any AMERICAN with a legitimate claim who has paid into the system utilizing the available benefits through Medicare, Social Security, or Unemployment. There are numerous examples of phony disability claims for Social Security which also entitles the recipient to Medicare at an early age.

Welfare makes up 10% of the entire Federal budget and in my opinion, based on my experience, 90% of the people collecting should be and could be working. There have been numerous examples of people using the cash portion of their benefits on cruise ships and at casinos. There is something about that that that makes me think these people aren't too needy.

A close friend had a part time employee and he offered to upgrade her to full time. She declined saying it would screw up her welfare. These things are happening every day across the country. The system has made it too easy to take the free ride.

[Garcia]

Entitlement Programs also include Social Security, Medicare and Unemployment insurance. I am not against any AMERICAN with a legitimate claim who has paid into the system utilizing the available benefits through Medicare, Social Security, or Unemployment. There are numerous examples of phony disability claims for Social Security which also entitles the recipient to Medicare at an early age.

Welfare makes up 10% of the entire Federal budget and in my opinion, based on my experience, 90% of the people collecting should be and could be working. There have been numerous examples of people using the cash portion of their benefits on cruise ships and at casinos. There is something about that that that makes me think these people aren't too needy.

A close friend had a part time employee and he offered to upgrade her to full time. She declined saying it would screw up her welfare. These things are happening every day across the country. The system has made it too easy to take the free ride.

The last point is valid and shows why the system needs to be reformed. I also know someone who declined full time work as it would throw off her benefits. For her, she would make less, and be further below the poverty line, if she worked full time than part time with SNAP benefits. She is perfectly willing to work full time and have her benefits adjusted so that she is not worse off working full-time, but the program won't do that.

Regardless, these are eye-catching examples of a broken system that help to prove individual points and perspectives but do very little to address the real problem. I don't know the answer, but I wonder how much could be put back into the federal government if we clamped down on both corporations and individuals who are abusing the federal tax codes (and the medicare/medicaid billing process) through fraud? My guess, and it is just that, is that from an economic point of view our country would be better off chasing down those dollars.

[Garcia]

A quick look says that the uncollected taxes amount to $400 billion annually with $235 billion spent annually on programs to support the nonworking poor. Quick math shows how we can continue to offer welfare and still come out $165 billion ahead! How do we make this happen?:rolleye2::confused:

[joey2665]

A quick look says that the uncollected taxes amount to $400 billion annually with $235 billion spent annually on programs to support the nonworking poor. Quick math shows how we can continue to offer welfare and still come out $165 billion ahead! How do we make this happen?:rolleye2::confused:

The welfare system needs a complete overhaul to reduce the abuse of the system.

[TiltonBB]

If they are looking to increase the tax income they could get the first $1 Billion here:

https://oversight.house.gov/release/irs-tax-delinquency-report-shows-federal-employees-owe-1-billion/

[Irish mist]

Can't say that I'm sad to see the new 1.4 percent tax on university endowments in this plan. About 60 wealthy colleges will be subjected to this tax. Harvard is expected to cough up 43 million dollars on its 37 billion dollar endowment.

When you allow your university to become nothing but propaganda- mills don't be shocked when the party you have been targeting with your agitprop targets you. I've always been in the camp that churches & universities need to be taxed on property & investments like the rest of us. So I find this new tax a good start.

[AB_Monterey]

You wish, I doubt it will change the buying habits of the top 1% one bit.

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That's what Clinton thought....and then people stopped buying yachts.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1993/07/16/how-to-sink-an-industry-and-not-soak-the-rich/08ea5310-4a4b-4674-ab88-fad8c42cf55b/?utm_term=.e54ce0e391b5

Why are liberals always shocked when people act in their own self-interest?

[Rusty]

The President was asked today what he was going to do about the deficit, and his reply was:
"I'm going to give it to the poor". :eek:

[ITD]

The President was asked today what he was going to do about the deficit, and his reply was:
"I'm going to give it to the poor". :eek:

Is that true Rusty? Actually, "the poor" will be the first to suffer if it hits the fan due to the deficit.

[Seaplane Pilot]

That's what Clinton thought....and then people stopped buying yachts.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1993/07/16/how-to-sink-an-industry-and-not-soak-the-rich/08ea5310-4a4b-4674-ab88-fad8c42cf55b/?utm_term=.e54ce0e391b5

Why are liberals always shocked when people act in their own self-interest?

Liberals also don’t like facts that expose how wrong they are. “Nothing to see here folks...move along...”

[Garcia]

Liberals also don’t like facts that expose how wrong they are. “Nothing to see here folks...move along...”

True - but neither do conservatives, independents, capitalists, politicians, our current President, and most likely most of us.:D