WOW Trail Phase 3 Heating up...

[Woodsy]

Looks like a battle is looming for Phase 3 of the WOW trail... Seems like battling in court would be a waste of time and money for the Southdown folks as the rail property is state owned and Southdown was sold to the City with the premise of a Rail Trail. Doesn't sound like a win to me...

Perhaps they would be better served taking that war chest of $$ they raised to fight the trail, and use it to make the trail design acceptable as it runs through Southdown.

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx/local-news/104032-wow-boycott

Woodsy

[ITD]

Actually boycotting businesses for a purpose like this can be quite effective and is done a lot. That said, these types of trails always have detractors but usually end up very well done and become great assets to communities and abutters. If you don't want to be near something like this then do your homework and don't move near right of ways.

[Major]

I grew up in Laconia and now live in SD/LB. Even though I now live in SD/LB, I wouldn't want any more federal or state money be "invested" in the WOW trail. Let's be real, I drive by the WOW trail several times a day, and hardly ever see anyone on it. And if you read the police blotter, the WOW trail appears to be a popular place to buy drugs and to commit robberies. Couple that with the fact that it is inaccessible 5 or 6 months of the year make it a complete waste of money. Laconia should do what it has done best over the past decade, invest in Section 8 housing so we can attract the type of people it wants as residents. I heard/read somewhere that SD/LB generates $32M in tax revenue. What the heck, Laconia can just make us pay more.

[BroadHopper]

I grew up in Laconia and now live in SD/LB. Even though I now live in SD/LB, I wouldn't want any more federal or state money be "invested" in the WOW trail. Let's be real, I drive by the WOW trail several times a day, and hardly ever see anyone on it. And if you read the police blotter, the WOW trail appears to be a popular place to buy drugs and to commit robberies. Couple that with the fact that it is inaccessible 5 or 6 months of the year make it a complete waste of money. Laconia should do what it has done best over the past decade, invest in Section 8 housing so we can attract the type of people it wants as residents. I heard/read somewhere that SD/LB generates $32M in tax revenue. What the heck, Laconia can just make us pay more.

Section Eight housing is far worst than the WOW trail. Just take a look at the police blotter on 'The Project' on Blueberry Lane. 24/7! The weasels can walk through the woods and rob our homes on Wildwood shores. A couple of years ago residents complained of strong odors from the woods and it took police months to finally check it out! The found a big meth lab in the woods!
WOW trail is on the other side of the lake. Not sure where you got the idea that the WOW trail attract drugs.

[belly_button_biter]

Actually boycotting businesses for a purpose like this can be quite effective and is done a lot. That said, these types of trails always have detractors but usually end up very well done and become great assets to communities and abutters. If you don't want to be near something like this then do your homework and don't move near right of ways.

When a business sponsors the development of something the money comes from the people who do business with them.


I don't think they're very serious about boycotting the O Steak and Seafood. I see a lot of South Down Shores people in there when we dine there.

[SAMIAM]

Seems to me that those millions could be put to better use than a seasonal walking trail. Phase one of the trail seems to be used very little except during perfect weather.

[DickR]

... I heard/read somewhere that SD/LB generates $32M in tax revenue....

If the "M" is the standard abbreviation for "millia," Latin for thousand, then $32M would be barely anything. If the intent was to say $32 million, then I have to suspect what was "heard." Talking round numbers, if each property paid ten thousand per year in property tax, there would have to be 3200 properties so taxed for SD/LB to generate that much collectively. Whatever the total take is, how does the total tax take from SD/LB figure into the argument for or against the proposal?

[Major]

Section Eight housing is far worst than the WOW trail. Just take a look at the police blotter on 'The Project' on Blueberry Lane. 24/7! The weasels can walk through the woods and rob our homes on Wildwood shores. A couple of years ago residents complained of strong odors from the woods and it took police months to finally check it out! The found a big meth lab in the woods!
WOW trail is on the other side of the lake. Not sure where you got the idea that the WOW trail attract drugs.

Two seconds of research yielded this --

http://www.necn.com/news/new-england/Police-Woman-Severely-Injured-During-Armed-Robbery-377055721.html

[Major]

If the "M" is the standard abbreviation for "millia," Latin for thousand, then $32M would be barely anything. If the intent was to say $32 million, then I have to suspect what was "heard." Talking round numbers, if each property paid ten thousand per year in property tax, there would have to be 3200 properties so taxed for SD/LB to generate that much collectively. Whatever the total take is, how does the total tax take from SD/LB figure into the argument for or against the proposal?

It is common practice to use "M" for million. Notwithstanding, you are correct, I was off by a factor of ten. See below, which is taken from an article about John Davidson --

Both communities now have over 600 property owners from many geographic areas who can call the Lakes Region “home”. Many are vacation home owners & semi-retirees and others are year round, permanent residents. Davidson’s ‘vision’ and hard work paid off immensely for the City of Laconia. Today both communities are valued over $114,000,000 by the assessor’s office and they contribute over $3.2 million annually to the City of Laconia’s tax revenue. That’s a lot of income which has helped the city construct a new police station, fire department, schools, parks and other amenities. Not only that but think of the economic impact these 600+ families have contributed to the Lakes Region. Many businesses have prospered because of these communities including general contractors, landscapers, lumber yards, furniture stores, boat, car & golf cart dealers, restaurants and even us REALTORS®…

Still, $3.2 million is nothing to sneeze at.

[Major]

My point is that the City has a spending problem, and looks to SD/LB as an important source of revenue to fund their "investments." In eight short years, my taxes have gone from $8K to $12.7K annually. Even with the tax cap, the City has a way of sticking it to the SD/LB residents.

[Woodsy]

Major...

I do agree with Laconia needing to look at Municipal Spending.... In 2009 the tax rate was $16.97 per thousand/assessed value. In 2017 the rate is $22.20 per thousand/assessed value. The tax rate has gone up $5.23 over 8 years or approx. .65/per thousand/per year.

However... SD/LB doesn't pay any more than any other property in Laconia when it comes to funding the city's projects! I pay the same $22.20 per thousand you do!

Woodsy

[Biggd]

My point is that the City has a spending problem, and looks to SD/LB as an important source of revenue to fund their "investments." In eight short years, my taxes have gone from $8K to $12.7K annually. Even with the tax cap, the City has a way of sticking it to the SD/LB residents.When I was looking for property I stayed away from Laconia for that reason. I bought in Meredith and my taxes are reasonable.

[Major]

Major...

I do agree with Laconia needing to look at Municipal Spending.... In 2009 the tax rate was $16.97 per thousand/assessed value. In 2017 the rate is $22.20 per thousand/assessed value. The tax rate has gone up $5.23 over 8 years or approx. .65/per thousand/per year.

However... SD/LB doesn't pay any more than any other property in Laconia when it comes to funding the city's projects! I pay the same $22.20 per thousand you do!

Woodsy

How do you explain our tax increase of 59% in eight years when Laconia's tax rate went up 31%? I'll tell you why, they assess properties at SD/LB at a higher rate. The planning board and city counsel view SD/LB as a cash cow, and don't face any ramifications since most of its residents are not Laconia residents.

[Woodsy]

No..... they do not assess SD/LB at a higher rate! Your property increased in value... The increase in value of the property, coupled with the increase in the tax rate gives you your 59%...

Go on the MLS and look.... the cheapest property for sale in SD/LB is a 1200 sq/ft condo for $235K. Not counting lots for sale.. I counted 12 properties that when averaged out (including the $235K property) equaled an average price of $436K... There are only 2 properties listed under $300K!

So while I am happy for you that you got in a good price... I don't feel bad for you or anyone else when your property increases in value!

Woodsy

[Major]

No..... they do not assess SD/LB at a higher rate! Your property increased in value... The increase in value of the property, coupled with the increase in the tax rate gives you your 59%...

Go on the MLS and look.... the cheapest property for sale in SD/LB is a 1200 sq/ft condo for $235K. Not counting lots for sale.. I counted 12 properties that when averaged out (including the $235K property) equaled an average price of $436K... There are only 2 properties listed under $300K!

So while I am happy for you that you got in a good price... I don't feel bad for you or anyone else when your property increases in value!

Woodsy

Respectfully disagree. Built the house in 2008, so there wasn't any past history to draw from. The first year of full assessment, 2009, our taxes were $8,000. Given the real estate market at that time, our assessments and taxes should have gone down. Instead, they systematically went up.

I grew up here, and I have friends and family who own homes throughout Laconia. Our home and my neighbors' homes in SD/LB are assessed close to what we might be able to sell them for. I follow Vision Appraisal, and from what I can tell, family and friends outside of SD/LB are assessed 70-75% of sale values. I can provide you many examples.

I get your point, but I think they have their thumb on the scale with respect to SD/LB. Just my opinion.

[Woodsy]

Major...

The math is pretty simple....

In 2009 Laconia's tax rate was $16.97 per thousand assessed. So If you paid $8000 in taxes in 2009 your house was valued at approx. $471,500.
$8000/$16.97 = $471,420

In 2017 Laconia's tax rate is $22.20 per thousand assessed. So if your house value didn't change...
471.42 x 22.20 = $10,465.52 tax bill (31% increase)

So if your taxes have gone up 59% ($8000 x .59 = $4720) they jumped from $8000 to $12,720. So the difference lies in your appraised value.
$12,720/22.20 = $572,972 tax assessed value.... 21.5% increase in home value over the 8 years.

If you think you are being unfairly assessed, you should definitely appeal to the town... (I certainly would) My guess is with median average for sale in Southdown being $436K, you probably aren't going to win. Southdown/Long Bay is a victim of its own success.

PS... My condo in the Weirs is assessed at 90% value. Per the state laws.

Woodsy

[BroadHopper]

that moves to Laconia and complain, there are plenty of estate to move elsewhere!

Laconia was here long before SD/LB. So don't go telling Laconia what they can or can not do!

[Major]

Last time I checked, I am a resident of Laconia and have the same right as other residents to express my displeasure about City money going towards the WOW trail. Make no mistake, even if Federal and State (and private) monies are provided to construct the trail, Laconia will be obligated to pay for its maintenance.

My hope is that the WOW trail proponents take SD/LB's offer to re-route the WOW trail around the periphery of the development. Otherwise, it appears that the WOW trail will be wasting a lot of its capital in fighting the issue in court.

[Woodsy]

Why should they re-route the trail around a development that was sold to the city with the rail trail as part of the plan?

The state owns the right of way.... Not SD/LB.

Why not work with the WOW trail to pick out a nice fencing option?

Woodsy

[Major]

The incentive for the proponents of the WOW trail to work with SD/LB is to avoid costly litigation. Who is right or wrong really has little impact on how disputes are resolved. (Things like monetary resources, stomach for litigation, etc., have as much influence on litigation results.) The proponents on the WOW trail can spend a lot of their capital on litigation to prove that it has the right of way, or instead work with the residents of SD/LB to re-route the trail. We'll see what happens. At the end of the day, whether the trail is built or not won't have a lot impact on my life. I just think it's a colossal waste of money.

[jeffk]

The incentive for the proponents of the WOW trail to work with SD/LB is to avoid costly litigation. Who is right or wrong really has little impact on how disputes are resolved. (Things like monetary resources, stomach for litigation, etc., have as much influence on litigation results.) The proponents on the WOW trail can spend a lot of their capital on litigation to prove that it has the right of way, or instead work with the residents of SD/LB to re-route the trail. We'll see what happens. At the end of the day, whether the trail is built or not won't have a lot impact on my life. I just think it's a colossal waste of money.

Sounds to me that you are saying that "Might makes right". Even if the WOW trail advocates are correct in that they have the proper clearance rights to build the trail, you are hoping to hit them with enough legal entanglements (costs) to stop them. Sounds like trail opponents are willing to expend a "colossal waste of money" to get their way, even if they are not in the right.

[thinkxingu]

This is where the law gets frustrating to me. If the SD properties were sold with a ROW--and ESPECIALLY if with the rail trail plans included--there shouldn't even be legal proceedings. If, on the other hand, the ROW was not disclosed, that's an issue.

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[Major]

Jeff, unfortunately, that's how litigation works. It may be a colossal waste of money for the SD/LB owners, but spread across 600 units, the cost isn't that much. If the goal is to have a trail that people can enjoy, why can't the WOW trail folks consider re-routing the trail? It seems like a win-win.

Thinking, I'm not sure when the rail trail was first proposed. The first units in SD/LB were built around 1985.

Anyway, I don't see much upside in debating the issue. I think we will all have to wait and see how it plays out. Either way, it won't be the end of the world if it's built or if it's not built. That said, I don't see either side giving in.

[jeffk]

This is where the law gets frustrating to me. If the SD properties were sold with a ROW--and ESPECIALLY if with the rail trail plans included--there shouldn't even be legal proceedings. If, on the other hand, the ROW was not disclosed, that's an issue.

While I agree that it's an issue, it would seem to me that the issue the SD folks have could be with the people who sold them the property. However, it appears that the ROW is on State Owned land, not on the actual property purchased? This is a classic problem. You buy a property looking forward to a quiet neighborhood and then you find out the abutting property is zoned commercial and they are about to build a new Rite Aid store. Bye bye quiet neighborhood. The reality is, buyer beware. It's up to you to dig into the area you are moving into. Maybe there is a toxic waste site a block away? The seller isn't required to tell you about problems in the surrounding area?

The typical action to getting caught out with unexpected problems is legal action. You may not have a leg to stand on but it doesn't mean you can't create a legal blizzard, especially if you band together with others who share your interest.

And, I can truly share the SD folks concern. I owned a property along the Merrimack in Hudson, NH. The deed provided a ROW for a walking path if the town ever got around to building it. I accepted the reality of it and decided if they did build it, I would push for a barrier (bushes?) to be constructed as well to provide a bit of separation from my property. It never came to pass but the possibility was there.

[Woodsy]

The original plans for SD way back in the 80's had the rail trail in the plans.... Now its coming to fruition and SD/LB is taking a NIMBY approach... Not too cool in my book but whatever, like Major said bury them with lawyers!

That being said.... it go really bad for SD/LB.

1st... any lawsuit could be rejected by a judge because of the state owned ROW and it was included in original plans... SD/LB ends up spending a bunch of money for nothing and may have to pay the WOW lawyers.

2nd.... Nuclear option... State plays hardball and doesn't renew lease to cross Railroad ROW... yup SD/LB lease that land. SD/LB loses water access, and loses a bunch of property value and $$$ spent. (The state is under no legal obligation to renew any lease for any reason)

IMHO, SD/LB should take the money they are going to use to fight the WOW trail and instead use it to make the WOW trail more acceptable to them (fence design, trail materials, shrubbery, landscaping etc)

Woodsy

[Greene's Basin Girl]

I live on a 4 acre wooded lot. I love it because it is so private. Our neighbor's are having 40 trees cut down on their lot. They can cut right up to our property line. So much for privacy!!! People move to the country from the suburbs and they still want the suburbs.

[jeffk]

I live on a 4 acre wooded lot. I love it because it is so private. Our neighbor's are having 40 trees cut down on their lot. They can cut right up to our property line. So much for privacy!!! People move to the country from the suburbs and they still want the suburbs.

Neighborhoods would really be great if it weren't for the neighbors! :D

[Outdoorsman]

The incentive for the proponents of the WOW trail to work with SD/LB is to avoid costly litigation. Who is right or wrong really has little impact on how disputes are resolved. (Things like monetary resources, stomach for litigation, etc., have as much influence on litigation results.) The proponents on the WOW trail can spend a lot of their capital on litigation to prove that it has the right of way, or instead work with the residents of SD/LB to re-route the trail.

(unfortunately), that's how litigation works. It may be a colossal waste of money for the SD/LB owners, but spread across 600 units, the cost isn't that much. If the goal is to have a trail that people can enjoy, why can't the WOW trail folks consider re-routing the trail? It seems like a win-win.

What a disgusting group of "residents" at SD/LB.

If privacy was an issue, why on earth would you build/buy in a community such as SD/LB? It's not like they are building a highway around your home. It is a bike path/walking trail.

Instead of wasting money on litigation, BUILD A WALL. 30 feet high made of concrete should suffice!

[Just Sold]

A review of the plan (Plan Book 141 Page 19) shows that SD does not own the land that the RR tracks are on and that it is owned by the State. The State has owned that land longer than SD has been in existence or even a dream. The SD plan would not show a proposed rail trail as it is not part of or on their property. Good luck fighting this - I think you will be donating your money to a very smart and savy attorney who will gladly take it off your hands, as much as you wish to waste.

[Descant]

In a few years, you'll want to sell your property and the Realtor listing will brag that you are adjacent to the WOW trail.

As a separate issue if you think SD is over assessed, hire a professional to dispute the assessments. Businesses do this all the time, especially when there is no locally comparable business. There are professionals who do this on a commission basis.
You could also look at other tax rates around the state and realize that $22-23 may not be out of line for comparable cities/towns.

[ricob]

Two points.

Phase 1 was paid for (100%?) by ARRA funding. Phase 2 had a substantial amount of TIF money ($400K+) dedicated to the revitalization of downtown Laconia, so that money did not come from the tax revenues as a whole, but from a special assessment paid by downtown properties. A significant amount of the funding for the WOW trail has come from private donations. Certainly the City has agreed to maintain the trail as a linear park. I'm not sure when Major has viewed the trail, but it is used considerably, by all kinds of people.

Second point. I have recently been on the Shining Sea Trail on Cape Cod. It abuts many residential properties. I will bet dollars to doughnuts that many or most of those abutters complained that the trail was going to destroy their privacy and lead to an increase in loitering and property crime. That didn't happen, in fact, just about every single property abutting the trail has it's own pathway that the owner has cut to access it.

My prediction is that SD/LB will be have a similar experience. They will use the trail for exercise and for access to downtown Laconia and the Weirs on a dedicated pedestrian-bicycle path without having to jump into their cars, like virtually every trail of this type that has been built.

[brk-lnt]

We owned in SDS for 10 years, most other owners I spoke with about the WOW trail over the years were not opposed to the trail itself so much as the stupid/ugly chainlink fence that comes with it.

A good number of South Down properties are rentals, and it is not really like there is strict security to get in the front gate, thus most owners there are not under the impression it is some private gilded oasis that is built to keep the general public away.

I think much of the concern is that the trail won't be maintained and will end up as more of an eyesore than something that is fully utilized.

[joey2665]

We owned in SDS for 10 years, most other owners I spoke with about the WOW trail over the years were not opposed to the trail itself so much as the stupid/ugly chainlink fence that comes with it.



A good number of South Down properties are rentals, and it is not really like there is strict security to get in the front gate, thus most owners there are not under the impression it is some private gilded oasis that is built to keep the general public away.



I think much of the concern is that the trail won't be maintained and will end up as more of an eyesore than something that is fully utilized.



I agree. I also owned in SD/LB for 10 years. Moving to Meredith Bay. many residents really have 3 concerns 1) security/ including use of the facility by non owners 2) property values 3) the fence


My feelings are over time the values will actually increase after an initial downturn, as long as the fence is esthetically pleasing with easy access to get to the on water amenities in the community and lastly especially in season the continue to monitor the beaches and pool as they are done now the WOW Trail will end up being a tremendous asset and selling point for the community.



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[BroadHopper]

Phase I does have a chain linked fence and the reason for that was federal safety rules and regulations as the track is considered active. Phase II has a combination pleasing metal picket fence and wood railing. This is due to changes in regulation result of feedback. I urge you to take a walk on Phase II and enjoy the new fences. Phase II connect to the Belmont Trail that brings you near Mosquito Bridge. I wonderful walk.

Belmont plans will eventually connect to the Tilton trail. From there the possibility of biking/hiking to Concord or Hanover is planned.

There is preliminary planning in Meredith about building a rail trail from downtown Meredith down to the Weirs. This is really exciting!

[topwater]

I grew up in Laconia and now live in SD/LB. Even though I now live in SD/LB, I wouldn't want any more federal or state money be "invested" in the WOW trail. Let's be real, I drive by the WOW trail several times a day, and hardly ever see anyone on it. And if you read the police blotter, the WOW trail appears to be a popular place to buy drugs and to commit robberies. Couple that with the fact that it is inaccessible 5 or 6 months of the year make it a complete waste of money. Laconia should do what it has done best over the past decade, invest in Section 8 housing so we can attract the type of people it wants as residents. I heard/read somewhere that SD/LB generates $32M in tax revenue. What the heck, Laconia can just make us pay more.

Major, Do you know how many crimes have been reported from the walking trail to the ANY police department? I am not knocking your remark about crime because to an extent I believe it's true. Was just wondering if you or anyone else had any stats backing that up.

[SAMIAM]

Another thing to consider is the effect on wild life that can no longer reach the water. Even though there is much development on that shore, there is also a lot of woodland. The area around Pickerel Cove is mostly a large wooded area.

[Major]

Major, Do you know how many crimes have been reported from the walking trail to the ANY police department? I am not knocking your remark about crime because to an extent I believe it's true. Was just wondering if you or anyone else had any stats backing that up.

More anecdotal. I read the police blog, and there have been several instances of individuals being arrested for drugs on the trail since its creation. (I referenced one assault in an earlier email.) It is pretty well known that a lot of drug activity occurs on the section between Messer Street and the library.

Anyway, from the comments, it appears that SD/LB is not winning the vote of popular opinion. I'm against it not necessarily because of my affiliation with SD/LB, but because I think it's a waste of money. Even if funding is available from federal, state and private sources to build phase III, the City will ultimately have to maintain it. I think our money could be better spent on other things.

[topwater]

I don't have a Dog in the fight, however I DO agree it is/was/and will be a total waste of money. Just another feel good moment. No facts here just a common sense approach..... Dollars spent on the WOW trail ( from where ever ) vs The amount of people who use it. Just Financially doesn't make sense. Could have built a glass bridge over Paugus Bay and really had a view.

[AC2717]

I Do not have a dog in the fight either, but I have proposed many times putting it on union ave with the businesses to generate foot traffic and use the already way to wide sidewalks then up lake street and down weirs blvd up the road to the weirs, most of this area having plenty of room for the space of a trial, it will generate much more use and be better for the town and all those involved, not to mention it will go right by the visitor center as well.

side note that will bring it right by my doorstep

[Major]

Major, Do you know how many crimes have been reported from the walking trail to the ANY police department? I am not knocking your remark about crime because to an extent I believe it's true. Was just wondering if you or anyone else had any stats backing that up.

from May 2011 to April 2016, the Laconia Police Department received 132 incident calls concerning the WOW trail. Most incidents involve vandalism, intoxicated people, suspicious persons, hypodermic needles and assaults. Last year, one incident involved a tent city on the phase I section of the WOW trail, with some of the residents actually providing the WOW trail as their home address.

I encourage anyone concerned about their safety on the WOW trail to contact the Laconia Police Department. I hope this helps.

[Major]

Another thing to consider is the effect on wild life that can no longer reach the water. Even though there is much development on that shore, there is also a lot of woodland. The area around Pickerel Cove is mostly a large wooded area.

Two environmental concerns to consider --

1. The railroad ties are treated with creosote. The City of Laconia recently had to do a cleanup near a ball field due to creosote, and it was considered a hazardous site. The creosote leaches into the soil, so any construction will likely release the creosote into the lake.

2. There is a regulation that there can’t be any construction, grading changes or landscape changes within 150’ of the lake. Everyone is held to this restriction, including the proposed WOW Trail.

[Outdoorsman]

Two environmental concerns to consider --

1. The railroad ties are treated with creosote. The City of Laconia recently had to do a cleanup near a ball field due to creosote, and it was considered a hazardous site. The creosote leaches into the soil, so any construction will likely release the creosote into the lake.

2. There is a regulation that there can’t be any construction, grading changes or landscape changes within 150’ of the lake. Everyone is held to this restriction, including the proposed WOW Trail.

The simple answer is to plow over the property on "the other side of the tracks".... that is, the side away from the lake (towards SD) ....100% legal and the State of NH owns the property (Read NOT SD)!

If the State/City does now own the ROW then they should take it by Eminent Domain! It seems that would be cheaper than allowing the .5%ers to dictate what the state should do with property that WE already own.

[jeffk]

Two environmental concerns to consider --

...

2. There is a regulation that there can’t be any construction, grading changes or landscape changes within 150’ of the lake. Everyone is held to this restriction, including the proposed WOW Trail.

Are you referring to the Shoreland Protection Act (SPA)? If so, as I understand it, changes CAN be made but you have to apply for a permit and follow guidelines. I would think that adding bushes and vegetation WOULD be allowed if done right. The problem is usually with removing growth. You can also add fencing if put in with hand tools? Power tools require permits but again, you probably just need to follow proper procedures. You could probably put down a trail surface if it allowed drainage through the material. I'm not claiming to be an expert but it's not as restrictive as some might think unless you are only 50 ft from the water.

If it's not the SPA, what regulation are you referring to?

[Major]

Outdoorsman, your solution doesn't solve the creosote issue or the 150' rule. Also, you think too highly of the residents at SD/LB. The 0.5%ers are at Grouse Point! Have you ever been in SD/LB? It's nice but let's not get carried away!

I was reminded today that although SD/LB gets a lot of press, we are not the only community against the WOW trail. Paugus Park, Breakwater, Nature’s View, Meredith Bay, and Grouse Point are all against the WOW trail.

Let's see what happens. Hopefully clearer heads will prevail.

[Major]

Are you referring to the Shoreland Protection Act (SPA)? If so, as I understand it, changes CAN be made but you have to apply for a permit and follow guidelines. I would think that adding bushes and vegetation WOULD be allowed if done right. The problem is usually with removing growth. You can also add fencing if put in with hand tools? Power tools require permits but again, you probably just need to follow proper procedures. You could probably put down a trail surface if it allowed drainage through the material. I'm not claiming to be an expert but it's not as restrictive as some might think unless you are only 50 ft from the water.

If it's not the SPA, what regulation are you referring to?

Jeff, I believe it's the SPA. The track is within 50' for most of the western shore of Paugus Bay.

[Woodsy]

You are grasping at straws.... The railroad ties and their creosote have been there for a 100 years. The WOW trail will not impact the rail line so that's a moot point. They aren't digging up and relocating the rail line.

As far as construction within 150' of the lake... it happens all the time. WOW will require DES to sign off on the project... if they haven't given preliminary approval already.

The harsh reality is the State/people of NH own the railroad right of way AND the shoreline. SD/LB was proposed to the city with the possibility of a rail trail. The nuclear option would not be good for SD/LB or any of the other communities... it would be way better for all if an acceptable compromise on fencing & access could be achieved.

Woodsy

[joey2665]

Phase 1 and 2 are already along Winnisquam and Winnipesaukee River and DES obviously had no issues there so why would they with Pagaus Bay?


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[Major]

Phase 1 and 2 are already along Winnisquam and Winnipesaukee River and DES obviously had no issues there so why would they with Pagaus Bay?


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None or very little construction near the water. Anything near the water was already constructed and paved.

[joey2665]

None or very little construction near the water. Anything near the water was already constructed and paved.



Really? The paving and fencing was along the river prior to "construction " of the WOW Trail? News to me.


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[Major]

Really? The paving and fencing was along the river prior to "construction " of the WOW Trail? News to me.


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Very little of the WOW trail goes by the river. It crosses the river at the Messer Street Bridge and at the Fair Street Bridge. From the map, it appears that the WOW trail (phases I and II) abuts the water at the southern end of Lake Opeechee and along the eastern/southern shoreline of Winnisquam.

[joey2665]

Very little of the WOW trail goes by the river. It crosses the river at the Messer Street Bridge and at the Fair Street Bridge. From the map, it appears that the WOW trail (phases I and II) abuts the water at the southern end of Lake Opeechee and along the eastern/southern shoreline of Winnisquam.



Yes it does go along Opeechee and Winnisquam I have been down both phases so again the DES had no issues with these so I don't think they will be a stumbling block for phase 3. That will come from the abutting communities. Although I know someone mentioned Meredith Bay was against the trail but I know for a fact they have not taken any public or official opinion on the trail.


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[Major]

To the best of my knowledge, the only community that has made a public stand against the WOW trail is SD/LB.

[laketrout]

Phase I does have a chain linked fence and the reason for that was federal safety rules and regulations as the track is considered active. Phase II has a combination pleasing metal picket fence and wood railing. This is due to changes in regulation result of feedback. I urge you to take a walk on Phase II and enjoy the new fences. Phase II connect to the Belmont Trail that brings you near Mosquito Bridge. I wonderful walk.

Belmont plans will eventually connect to the Tilton trail. From there the possibility of biking/hiking to Concord or Hanover is planned.

There is preliminary planning in Meredith about building a rail trail from downtown Meredith down to the Weirs. This is really exciting!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________
There would be a chain link or high fence as Southdown/Long Bay have docks 56 in Southdown/Marina and 1 beach. Long Bay has a Marina/docks and 2 beaches so fencing would go up to keep the liability down. Liability insurance would be huge from what I heard plus the fact that the private communities do not feel like hosting folks just strolling into their lawns. Were not talking 10 families and 40 people more then 2500 +/- people reside there during the year.

On a side note the trail is going over or near Pickering cove north of Long Bay/SDS shores near the railroad tracks and the right of way is only 5 feet wide and stretches for 1/4 of a mile. The causeway near/over the water would have to be built up at a huge cost in that community/area.

Laconia is in a precocious position as a huge amount of the residential tax valuation/base comes from LB and SDS with 660 houses and condos.

I am long time Laconia resident and happen to live in that area. The trail could be devised to make people content but will probably be tied up in the courts for years.

[laketrout]

A review of the plan (Plan Book 141 Page 19) shows that SD does not own the land that the RR tracks are on and that it is owned by the State. The State has owned that land longer than SD has been in existence or even a dream. The SD plan would not show a proposed rail trail as it is not part of or on their property. Good luck fighting this - I think you will be donating your money to a very smart and savy attorney who will gladly take it off your hands, as much as you wish to waste.

Just sold, there is always room for negotiation. Many SDS/LB are pissed off they will boycott businesses, restaurants and bars in the area, and that accounts for a lot of food and adult beverages. Me personally I wont boycott.

[Woodsy]

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________
There would be a chain link or high fence as Southdown/Long Bay have docks 56 in Southdown/Marina and 1 beach. Long Bay has a Marina/docks and 2 beaches so fencing would go up to keep the liability down. Liability insurance would be huge from what I heard plus the fact that the private communities do not feel like hosting folks just strolling into their lawns. Were not talking 10 families and 40 people more then 2500 +/- people reside there during the year.

On a side note the trail is going over or near Pickering cove north of Long Bay/SDS shores near the railroad tracks and the right of way is only 5 feet wide and stretches for 1/4 of a mile. The causeway near/over the water would have to be built up at a huge cost in that community/area.

Laconia is in a precocious position as a huge amount of the residential tax valuation/base comes from LB and SDS with 660 houses and condos.

I am long time Laconia resident and happen to live in that area. The trail could be devised to make people content but will probably be tied up in the courts for years.

Laketrout...

The fence design is a negotiable thing.... it does not have to be an ugly chain link fence. On some parts of the existing WOW trail its a pretty nice post & beam design. Certainly that design or something similar should be acceptable.

There is no liability for Southdown as the property in question is owned by the State of NH. Also there is a provision in NH State law that absolves owners of liability when their land is used recreationally by the public. It is this law that keeps snowmobile & ATV trails open to the public.

Laconia is not in a precarious position tax-wise with regards to SD/LB... any possible devaluation of the SD/LB tax base would take years to show up. There are 600+ houses/condos and there are only 12-14 for sale with an avg price of approx. $436K. Not a huge turnover. Traditionally Rail Trails have added value to a community not devalued a community.

IMHO, I think SD/LB is in the precarious position... the nuclear option of NH not renewing their waterfront lease would be most detrimental to all involved.


Woodsy

[PDC4LIFE]

Interesting Article: Property values and crime are to be considered.

http://citizenreviewonline.org/2010/Dec/trails_boost_crime.html

[laketrout]

Laketrout...

The fence design is a negotiable thing.... it does not have to be an ugly chain link fence. On some parts of the existing WOW trail its a pretty nice post & beam design. Certainly that design or something similar should be acceptable.

There is no liability for Southdown as the property in question is owned by the State of NH. Also there is a provision in NH State law that absolves owners of liability when their land is used recreationally by the public. It is this law that keeps snowmobile & ATV trails open to the public.

Laconia is not in a precarious position tax-wise with regards to SD/LB... any possible devaluation of the SD/LB tax base would take years to show up. There are 600+ houses/condos and there are only 12-14 for sale with an avg price of approx. $436K. Not a huge turnover. Traditionally Rail Trails have added value to a community not devalued a community.

IMHO, I think SD/LB is in the precarious position... the nuclear option of NH not renewing their waterfront lease would be most detrimental to all involved.


Woodsy

To each his own. Real Estate sale transactions are slow currently as there is little inventory. Woodsy you quote an average sales price of $436k that's an average and nothing to sneeze at, the average home in Laconia sells for less then 1/2 that. Average Sales of SDS/LB homes equal about 10% of total units per year, & with 660 homes, that percentage fluctuates. In any given year the # of SDS homes sold might be 65 units or 40 units it depends on many economic factors.

With Miles of private land and boat docks and marinas on eithe side of the proposed trail, there is room for Liability and other issues. When 660 residences in your city speak up its time to listen.

[Woodsy]

That didn't take long....... Not sure how they think a lawsuit will somehow force the state's hand. It would set very dangerous legal precedent.

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx/local-news/104785-opponents-of-wow-trail-extension-file-lawsuit

Woodsy

[thinkxingu]

According to the article, the associations were instituted with the understanding that the path would be built? And now they'll not only burn their owners' and taxpayers' funds in litigation but maybe risk the continued ROW access? Very interesting case for sure.

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[Seaplane Pilot]

According to the article, the associations were instituted with the understanding that the path would be built? And now they'll not only burn their owners' and taxpayers' funds in litigation but maybe risk the continued ROW access? Very interesting case for sure.

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I agree. I would think they would pick their fights very carefully because if they piss off the State, what's to stop the State from just cutting off their access to the waterfront? Then what? Moral of the story: Don't pull the lion's tail.

[topwater]

I believe everything will be shown very clearly on the maps or charts ( I'm so confused LOL ) that the State owns. This will be in court for some time. Good for south Down shores for sticking to their guns on this. As I have mentioned earlier IMO this is a TOTAL waste of money. Seems everyone is fine with it UNLESS it's in your backyard. Out of site...out of mind.:cheers:

[SAMIAM]

The thought of a waterfront fence from Lakeport to the Weirs absolutely gives me the chills.
I don't understand how anyone who cares about the stewardship of our lakes would want to do that........but why stop there.
Lets go on to Squam.

[joey2665]

This morning for the first time I ran the complete WOW Trail. Full disclosure I was a resident of Long Bay for 10 years and pretty much against the trail. It was extremely nice with several access points and the split rail fencing towards the Belmont line was esthetically pleasing. Very well kept and only saw 4 pieces of trash along the whole way. If done correctly it may not be as bad as most think.


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[trfour]

it may not be as bad as most think.


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If 'most' thought it was bad, the Wow Trail never would have been started in the first place...

[joey2665]

If 'most' thought it was bad, the Wow Trail never would have been started in the first place...



Speaking about "most" as far as those opposing the next phase including those in South Down and Long Bay.

Also have mixed feeling about suing the DOT. Going to make future cooperation with the DOT and city of Laconia when other issues in those communities arise and their assistance is needed



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[brk-lnt]

What's to stop the State from just cutting off their access to the waterfront?

Taxes?

Do you think the state and/or city of Laconia want to immediately decrease the value of every property in there by 10-20%? Additionally, if access was rescinded in what seemed to be a matter of spite it could give South Down a stronger position in the end (though at a higher legal cost).

[Major]

Taxes?

Do you think the state and/or city of Laconia want to immediately decrease the value of every property in there by 10-20%? Additionally, if access was rescinded in what seemed to be a matter of spite it could give South Down a stronger position in the end (though at a higher legal cost).

I do not know/understand the legal ins and outs of the State's right of way. The land belongs to SD/LB, and there are big chunks of land east of the right of way. No matter the outcome, SD/LB residents are entitled access to their respective beaches, which are clearly outside of the right of way, on land owned by the SD/LB community.

It is my understanding from two separate sources that the WOW Trail powerbrokers are putting pressure on the railroad to shut it down between Lakeport and the Weirs. Insuring the safety of the WOW Trail users could be a very expensive proposition, and it isn't clear as to who is responsible.

[Woodsy]

Obv, the state limiting SD/LB waterfront access would be the nuclear option, not preferable to anyone. However, A tax devaluation would take years to see as its based on sales comps. I seriously doubt you would see a 20% reduction in values and a likewise reduction in Laconia's tax base.

The lawsuit, IMHO is fragile at best. The gist of the lawsuit is SD/LB are trying to tell the state what it can/cannot do with state owned property. That is a very slippery slope and a win by SD/LB would set a HUGE legal precedent that would ripple thru the state. I don't see any judge signing off on a private citizens association telling the state what it can or cannot do... I don't think the lawsuit will be allowed to go too far forward.

If this was an eminent domain lawsuit you would have a much better chance.

IMHO SD/LB would be better off using their $$ to negotiate an acceptable fence and path design.

Woodsy

[Woodsy]

here is a link that shows the RR ROW for those who want to see what is in question... you will have to zoom in on Paugus Bay. As you can see SD/LB/various yacht clubs owns very little of the waterfront and they have to cross the state RR ROW to get there....

https://www.axisgis.com/LaconiaNH/

Woodsy

[StardogChampion]

here is a link that shows the RR ROW for those who want to see what is in question... you will have to zoom in on Paugus Bay. As you can see SD/LB/various yacht clubs owns very little of the waterfront and they have to cross the state RR ROW to get there....

https://www.axisgis.com/LaconiaNH/

Woodsy

The tax maps seem to indicate the RR is not a ROW but the land is owned by the state and there are several specific ROWs across the RR land indicated on the map. Otherwise, the RR would be drawn differently and the parcels not separated outside the corridor.

That's much different than the land being owned by various property owners along the route and the RR having a ROW.

So if the state owns the land and the properties along the RR have specific ROWs, then there isn't much anyone can do on either side. If the state did put up a fence it would have to have access to those ROWs. Given that it seems money better spent would be on both parties agreeing on the aesthetics/maintenance of access to ROWs/etc. Only winner here is going to be the lawyers.

[joey2665]

The tax maps seem to indicate the RR is not a ROW but the land is owned by the state and there are several specific ROWs across the RR land indicated on the map. Otherwise, the RR would be drawn differently and the parcels not separated outside the corridor.

That's much different than the land being owned by various property owners along the route and the RR having a ROW.

So if the state owns the land and the properties along the RR have specific ROWs, then there isn't much anyone can do on either side. If the state did put up a fence it would have to have access to those ROWs. Given that it seems money better spent would be on both parties agreeing on the aesthetics/maintenance of access to ROWs/etc. Only winner here is going to be the lawyers.

I whole heartedly agree. Only the lawyers will make out on this issue in the end.

[brk-lnt]

The gist of the lawsuit is SD/LB are trying to tell the state what it can/cannot do with state owned property.

I disagree, I think SD/LB is asking the state to look a current, proven, use of the land, it's impact on the community/etc., and compare that with a proposed change that will have some unknown impact (IMO, you cannot argue "zero impact", every change has some impact).

Personally (IANAL), I think the very long delay on getting the trail built works in South Down's favor, it is like the inverse of Adverse Possession concepts. Yes, there was a stated plan for a trail when the ROW was granted, but after a certain amount of time (30 years!) goes by with no trail, and certain aspects of the community, and its draw for owners, develops around the fact that there is no trail/fence/access hindrance, you can understand why people are opposed to it.

It would be different, IMO, if SD were attempting to block access to a proposed emergency services road construction, or a similar thing that would have clear, proven benefit to the community at large. You also cannot deny some of the crime and other issues around Laconia, again, making resistance to easy access into the community understandable.

The WOW trail is at least partly being presented as something that will give "the people" freer access to the lakes/shoreline, and that is a noble cause, however the state effectively allowed the current situation where much of the shoreline is privately owned (and, not getting into side-debates about technical access to shorline areas, just saying that much of the property abutting the shore is privately owned). Trying to now compensate for selling off access by implementing a walking trail with undetermined impact on some communities is really not a balanced approach.

[jeffk]

I'm not sure a ROW for public use purposes has a time limit.

If it was for private use, say me using a property for access and never exercising it, maybe an argument could be made for forfeiting my access right.

I doubt the same would be true for public purposes which often stretch out over decades.

Further, the possible damages are speculative, possibly even unlikely. A well planned and tasteful path and fencing need not have significant impact on the adjacent properties. Other area on the WOW trail don't have problems with criminal activity. Unproven worries are not a basis for solid decision making.

If I lived there, I would certainly want a place at the table as decisions are made but I don't think NO! is a workable answer.

[joey2665]

I'm not sure a ROW for public use purposes has a time limit.

If it was for private use, say me using a property for access and never exercising it, maybe an argument could be made for forfeiting my access right.

I doubt the same would be true for public purposes which often stretch out over decades.

Further, the possible damages are speculative, possibly even unlikely. A well planned and tasteful path and fencing need not have significant impact on the adjacent properties. Other area on the WOW trail don't have problems with criminal activity. Unproven worries are not a basis for solid decision making.

If I lived there, I would certainly want a place at the table as decisions are made but I don't think NO! is a workable answer.

I agree with Jeff. As a long time resident of Long Bay the best plan of action would be for all affected communities to come together with the City and WOW Trail organization to come up with a plan acceptable to all. Otherwise, as usual the lawyers make out and it costs the taxpayers and residents more money in the end. The SD/LB people could have the potential in paying legal fees on both ends in the way of special assessments and increased property tax.

[baygo]

Wouldn't it save a lot of time money and aggravation if they were to alter the route to come up Elm Street, then bypass south down shores on Parade Road and turn down Severance Road to pick up the snowmobile trail that goes through the state forest back down to the lake. Everybody wins��

[Major]

Other area on the WOW trail don't have problems with criminal activity. Unproven worries are not a basis for solid decision making.

I guess 132 incidents over a six-year period doesn't rise to the level of significant criminal activity. If it was your street that had 132 incidents of assault, vandalism, drug use, tent cities, etc., I think you'd have a different opinion.

Publicly, the Laconia Police will take the position that the WOW Trail has minimal criminal activity. Privately, they will tell you otherwise. The WOW Trail is an avenue of egress to crimes occurring in downtown Laconia. Crime is definitely prevalent. SD/LB concerns about crime are not unproven or unfounded, but based on facts.

[Major]

Wouldn't it save a lot of time money and aggravation if they were to alter the route to come up Elm Street, then bypass south down shores on Paris Road and turn down Severance Road to pick up the snowmobile trail that goes through the state forest back down to the lake. Everybody wins😀

SD/LB has offered similar solutions. The WOW Trail organizers won't consider alternative routes. However, they are financially motivated to stick to their guns since the Federal funding only applies to rail-to-trail type projects.

[jeffk]

Wouldn't it save a lot of time money and aggravation if they were to alter the route to come up Elm Street, then bypass south down shores on Paris Road and turn down Severance Road to pick up the snowmobile trail that goes through the state forest back down to the lake. Everybody wins😀

If I was the State, I don't think I would want to set the precedent of not using state land when it can be legally used. It could lead to lots of headaches in the future.

[joey2665]

I guess 132 incidents over a six-year period doesn't rise to the level of significant criminal activity. If it was your street that had 132 incidents of assault, vandalism, drug use, tent cities, etc., I think you'd have a different opinion.

Publicly, the Laconia Police will take the position that the WOW Trail has minimal criminal activity. Privately, they will tell you otherwise. The WOW Trail is an avenue of egress to crimes occurring in downtown Laconia. Crime is definitely prevalent. SD/LB concerns about crime are not unproven or unfounded, but based on facts.

I would like to see the stats before and after the trail. Before the WOW Trail the criminal activity took place on the rail road tracks anyway. I have first hand knowledge as my home and several other were broken into in Long Bay and the criminal walked down the tracks to get in and the same way out and I have witness drug exchanges behind my home in LB in a parking area below my home late evenings and early mornings

[Woodsy]

The whole purpose of a Rail Trail is to separate people from vehicles as much as possible. They are hugely successful in other parts of NH and many, many other states!

Rerouting the rail trail to city streets just accommodate some private development seems silly to me and sets a dangerous precedent. Especially when that private development was sold to the city with the rail trail as part of the plan... This is a case of NIMBY pure and simple.

The winners here will be the lawyers. The reality is, the general public isn't going to feel bad for people who own homes in a wealthy gated community who want to limit public access to publicly owned land. SD/LB will ultimately lose the lawsuit, but like the speed limit it will cause some serious divisions. It already is and that is kind of sad.

Woodsy

[Major]

Jeff, to quote a great American presidential candidate "at this point in time what difference does this make." Whether crime was more or less prior to the WOW Trail has no impact on what it is now. We know that between 2010 and 2016, a six year period, there were 132 reported incidents that required police investigation. Some were very serious. My suspicion is that crime was less prior to the WOW Trail since the use of opioids has exploded the last several years. However, this is just a guess.

Woodsy, you think SD/LB is a "wealthy" community? I agree it's very nice, but for the most part the condos are very modest and most of the homes are modest. No one is going to confuse SD/LB with Governor's Island or Grouse Point for that matter. The primary reason why SD/LB is gated is because the residents like to drive golf carts. That's one of the reasons why the roads were never turned over to the City.

[jeffk]

I would suggest that there may be more questionable activity in parts of the trail that go through some areas of Laconia but not others just like there is more crime in general in some areas of Laconia rather than others. If the trail is fully completed one day will the crime in Laconia transfer to Meredith just because a trail connects them? I rather doubt it. Do criminals in Laconia make a habit of driving over to South Down? It's not all that far. I suspect they don't. They prefer to stay on their own turf and in areas that are not as wide open where their activity might be seen. South Down is pretty wide open and not easy to hide in. I suspect the people there know their neighbors and would quickly report any strangers hanging around. It wouldn't be a welcoming area for criminals and they would know it.

[joey2665]

Jeff, to quote a great American presidential candidate "at this point in time what difference does this make." Whether crime was more or less prior to the WOW Trail has no impact on what it is now. We know that between 2010 and 2016, a six year period, there were 132 reported incidents that required police investigation. Some were very serious. My suspicion is that crime was less prior to the WOW Trail since the use of opioids has exploded the last several years. However, this is just a guess.

Woodsy, you think SD/LB is a "wealthy" community? I agree it's very nice, but for the most part the condos are very modest and most of the homes are modest. No one is going to confuse SD/LB with Governor's Island or Grouse Point for that matter. The primary reason why SD/LB is gated is because the residents like to drive golf carts. That's one of the reasons why the roads were never turned over to the City.

It was Joey not Jeff who made the crime comment and you validated my point. You can have all the suspicion you want but there is no trail as of yet in SD/LB and I have been broken into and witnessed many drug interactions. I seriously doubt the trail will cause and increase as the area is extremely accessible via the rail tracks and the codes to the gates are the worst kept secret in Laconia. My point being crime really is not an arguing point not to have the trail go through SD/LB

[brk-lnt]

My point being crime really is not an arguing point not to have the trail go through SD/LB

So then your position is that since there is already crime no concern should be given to changes that might INCREASE crime? If I have misinterpreted your comment please clarify, thanks!

[brk-lnt]

I'm not sure a ROW for public use purposes has a time limit.


Statistically speaking, I don't think it has a time limit either. It would not be to the state's benefit to put auto-expiration clauses on ROW grants, or similar exceptions based on future use potential.

However, like many things legal, events over time often cause things to be reevaluated and for parties to realize that language was not specific enough, other precedents or decisions in tangential lawsuits come into play, etc.

SD/LB has changed a lot in character over time. Look at some of the early buildings vs. later ones, it appears, to me, that it started as more of a simple/affordable community and morphed over time into one that contains more and more higher-valued properties. Some of those property owners may have built elsewhere or chosen to alter their plans had they anticipated a 30 year old dormant easement to suddenly be put to use. I am not saying that fully justifies the opposition, but it does impact things (IMO).

When we purchased in South Down (2006), I do not recall seeing any clauses, deed restrictions, etc. that mentioned this ROW existing and being earmarked for a public trail and associated fences to be built through the community. Should potential buyers have been made aware of how the common area property, and the community at large, could be impacted? Are there other precedents in similar circumstances?

[Major]

It was Joey not Jeff who made the crime comment and you validated my point. You can have all the suspicion you want but there is no trail as of yet in SD/LB and I have been broken into and witnessed many drug interactions. I seriously doubt the trail will cause and increase as the area is extremely accessible via the rail tracks and the codes to the gates are the worst kept secret in Laconia. My point being crime really is not an arguing point not to have the trail go through SD/LB

Sorry for the misquote Joey. I've lived full time in SD/LB since 2008, and part time since 2001. I have to admit, I've seen sketchy people from time-to-time at the basketball court near the entrance of South Down late at night. However, I am not aware of ANY crime in SD/LB. I'm sure there have been instances, such as your break-ins, but for the most part, SD/LB is a crime-free community. I feel extremely safe.

Much like politics, I don't think either side is going to win over the other side. From my perspective, I hope funding for Phase III never materializes. I think the WOW Trail's $5-10 million estimate is absurdly low. There are issues with the stretch between Pickerel and Perch Ponds, as well with navigating under the Weirs Beach Bridge. Who knows, maybe the litigation will force a compromise. Stranger things have happened.

[joey2665]

Sorry for the misquote Joey. I've lived full time in SD/LB since 2008, and part time since 2001. I have to admit, I've seen sketchy people from time-to-time at the basketball court near the entrance of South Down late at night. However, I am not aware of ANY crime in SD/LB. I'm sure there have been instances, such as your break-ins, but for the most part, SD/LB is a crime-free community. I feel extremely safe.

Much like politics, I don't think either side is going to win over the other side. From my perspective, I hope funding for Phase III never materializes. I think the WOW Trail's $5-10 million estimate is absurdly low. There are issues with the stretch between Pickerel and Perch Ponds, as well with navigating under the Weirs Beach Bridge. Who knows, maybe the litigation will force a compromise. Stranger things have happened.

Absolutely agree with the costs and potential construction pit falls at Perch and Pickerel Ponds. Just for interest sake pass by the parking lot underneath prides point late at night you will be surprised by what you can see. I have been a part time resident since 2006 but moving on now to a different location, its getting too crowded in there for me. Incredible the amount of new homes being built there.

[Major]

Absolutely agree with the costs and potential construction pit falls at Perch and Pickerel Ponds. Just for interest sake pass by the parking lot underneath prides point late at night you will be surprised by what you can see. I have been a part time resident since 2006 but moving on now to a different location, its getting too crowded in there for me. Incredible the amount of new homes being built there.

I will definitely check out the parking lot. Good luck on your move. Sorry to lose you as a neighbor.

[joey2665]

I will definitely check out the parking lot. Good luck on your move. Sorry to lose you as a neighbor.

Thank you very much, the were a lot of pros and cons to consider. I will be around, my ex has a home in SD

[jeffk]

... When we purchased in South Down (2006), I do not recall seeing any clauses, deed restrictions, etc. that mentioned this ROW existing and being earmarked for a public trail and associated fences to be built through the community. Should potential buyers have been made aware of how the common area property, and the community at large, could be impacted? Are there other precedents in similar circumstances?

Being a non lawyer you can take my opinion for what it's worth but since the public trail is not an encumbrance on any South Down property, there is no reason you would have seen it on any of your property documents. It is related to the STATE property. Most people wouldn't build near railroad tracks to begin with but the bet here was that the railroad in NH was dead and eventually the tracks would get torn up. Oops.

Sometimes it's not what can happen on YOUR property that you need to be aware of; it's what can happen on your NEIGHBOR'S property. Suppose a neighbor's property was zoned commercial (yours is not) and poof, suddenly they sell and a business is being built in your back yard and there is not a lot you can do about it except maybe to get some buffering put in. Unless you really dug into the real estate situation in the area, you probably would never see it coming. Most of us just aren't that careful. I think that is what is happening here.

[joey2665]

When we purchased in South Down (2006), I do not recall seeing any clauses, deed restrictions, etc. that mentioned this ROW existing and being earmarked for a public trail and associated fences to be built through the community. Should potential buyers have been made aware of how the common area property, and the community at large, could be impacted? Are there other precedents in similar circumstances?[/QUOTE]

When I purchased in 2006 in SD before moving to LB, my broker provided me with copies of the original declaration along with the SD by-laws. The ROW is in there but also my broker discussed it with us before signing our purchase contract. Your broker at the time should have made you aware or at least provided all the HOA documents

[Woodsy]

I think the due diligence unfortunately falls on the buyer...

The buyer(s) in SD/LB probably knew about the RR ROW, as it is a physical landmark. I seriously doubt that most buyers were aware or were made aware that the RR ROW extends to the water for most of the shoreline, and that property did not belong to SD/LB. The only way to know would be to look at the plot plans/tax map for SD/LB that I listed above. I am sure no RE Agent would point that out and possibly lose a sale. Its a pretty crappy situation for sure!

I can see SD/LB taking issue with the fencing, I wouldn't want a 6' high chain link fence there either. However that's a negotiation, not a lawsuit. Especially where there is some very nice low post & beam fencing in other areas of the WOW trail.

In the winter, the state allows snowmobiles/cross country skiers/hikers etc. to use the RR ROW as a connecting corridor trail. Public use/access utilizing the RR ROW thru SD/LB is already approved by the state. I am sure that was a surprise to some unsuspecting buyers too. So arguing against further public access is probably pretty futile as the state has ALWAYS allowed it.

Woodsy

[TiltonBB]

SD/LB has changed a lot in character over time. Look at some of the early buildings vs. later ones, it appears, to me, that it started as more of a simple/affordable community and morphed over time into one that contains more and more higher-valued properties. Some of those property owners may have built elsewhere or chosen to alter their plans had they anticipated a 30 year old dormant easement to suddenly be put to use. I am not saying that fully justifies the opposition, but it does impact things

There are two sides to that coin: Some people who like the idea of a trail may have decided to buy there hoping it would get built.

[brk-lnt]

There are two sides to that coin: Some people who like the idea of a trail may have decided to buy there hoping it would get built.

Good point :)

[Dad sold the C * C]

I have watched this back and forth, pro and con on this thread and know this is a very decisive issue. I have experience with the Minuteman bike trail that runs from Bedford MA, thru Lexington, Arlington and ends at Alewife in Cambridge.

First off, as others have said, many people did not want the trail built, or saw a need for it. Now, it is a selling point for neighborhoods all along the trail and it is a major recreation and commuter way and has spurred multiple Retail stops along the way.

Whether we do not want the trail in our back yard or think it is a waste of money, we have to understand that many people want these trails and are willing to pay for them. Yes this means in most cases we all pay for them through our taxes.

The Minuteman trail ends near the middle of Bedford MA, but the old railroad bed continues to Concord and a National Wildlife refuge. Concord and the Feds have little desire for the paved trail to continue in their jurisdiction, so it was a surprise to some of us when it was proposed at town meeting to enhance the trail and pave it the rest of the way to the Concord line. I personally had an issue with dumping a lot of people on a busy road with only mountain bikes and walkers able to continue along the old dirt RR bed.

I was on a committee that could block the primary proposed Funding from even reaching the Town Meeting floor; but we realized that many people wanted this so we voted to allow it to go to Town Meeting. There was discussion at TM but it passed with 2/3rds vote. It is still a long process as funds were approved for partial design and that has been going on for over 5 years.

Is it expensive, YES, but I think the trail will be good for the area like these trails have been across the region and the country. My advice to the 2 communities in opposition to the trail would be to save your money and use it to work with the WOW trail for better fencing, screening and access options. We have done this with other municipal projects and it can be done with benefits to everyone. It could be as simple as covering the extra cost for a darker or better style fence.

[Redbarn]

They should allow golf carts on the trail, might sway some opinion, being able to drive from south down the weirs to Meredith on a cart sounds like fun. Kind of shrink the community's and tie them together. Just a thought.

[joey2665]

They should allow golf carts on the trail, might sway some opinion, being able to drive from south down the weirs to Meredith on a cart sounds like fun. Kind of shrink the community's and tie them together. Just a thought.

That's what they do in many over 55 villages in Florida, such as The Villages that is a huge community where the main mode of transportation is the golf cart, but in this case I do not think it would be very safe for the walkers, cyclists and runners

[Redbarn]

That's what they do in many over 55 villages in Florida, such as The Villages that is a huge community where the main mode of transportation is the golf cart, but in this case I do not think it would be very safe for the walkers, cyclists and runners

Yeah I knew that would be the argument against. But l would argue I am more dangerous on a bicycle going twice as fast as golf cart to a pedestrian than a golf cart.
I would also say like you said in Florida it is very common to mix carts with everything else, even on the street with cars. Even here south down, Meredith Bay, Grosse point, they mix the two. The cart path from Meredith Bay to Akwa mixes the two at a very steep grade and is still safe for pedestrians.

Don't get me wrong I know it will never happen but if the wow trail had to happen this would make it cool. Fun to talk about.

(side note, still wish the tracks had a pedestrian trolley)

[Major]

Grouse Point has steep grades too. When my parents lived there, a 12-year old girl died rolling a golf cart down a steep embankment. Kind of off topic, but golf carts, while fun, can be dangerous on steep hills.

[joey2665]

Yeah I knew that would be the argument against. But l would argue I am more dangerous on a bicycle going twice as fast as golf cart to a pedestrian than a golf cart.

I would also say like you said in Florida it is very common to mix carts with everything else, even on the street with cars. Even here south down, Meredith Bay, Grosse point, they mix the two. The cart path from Meredith Bay to Akwa mixes the two at a very steep grade and is still safe for pedestrians.



Don't get me wrong I know it will never happen but if the wow trail had to happen this would make it cool. Fun to talk about.



(side note, still wish the tracks had a pedestrian trolley)



I think it would be awesome to take the golf cart to the weirs or Meredith. Wishful thinking.


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[AC2717]

I just wanted to be the 100th post on this thread

[upthesaukee]

I just wanted to be the 100th post on this thread
"Joey" won that distinction, but you did win the prize for being the 100th reply! No idea way the prize is, but you won it. 😁

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[AC2717]

"Joey" won that distinction, but you did win the prize for being the 100th reply! No idea way the prize is, but you won it. 😁

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you are right, dam it, I used the wrong word,
I just wanted to be the 100th reply lol

[baygo]

They should allow golf carts on the trail, might sway some opinion, being able to drive from south down the weirs to Meredith on a cart sounds like fun. Kind of shrink the community's and tie them together. Just a thought.

I own and operate a restaurant that abuts the SD/LB community. My first summer the residents were coming by way of golf cart. Word of this spread by way of many channels and created additional interest in owning a home there. I'm approved by the city to offer groceries as well. Just as I was about to per sue that someone decided to start putting obstacles in the way of the golf carts. I dropped my interest in groceries.

I wouldn't be surprised by it if the trail gets built and bikers encounter big rocks placed on the trail. I think the trail organizers seriously need to consider this in their maintenance and upkeep projections.

[jeffk]

I would think this is not just a maintenance issue. If someone was injured due to people deliberately placing rocks on the WOW trail it could become a criminal issue.

[baygo]

I would think this is not just a maintenance issue. If someone was injured due to people deliberately placing rocks on the WOW trail it could become a criminal issue.


You are absolutely right, terrible things could come from, and easily be classified criminal from, some maliciously placed boulders. A reality is: how do you catch the culprit? Yes people could get hurt and a lot of money would be wasted on removing the boulders in the interim.

In a previous post I mention a potential alternative of bringing the trail down Elm Street to Parade Road and up to Severance Rd, then down to the tracks on what I referred to as the snowmobile trail through the state forest. That post was apposed by two seemingly legitimate views. The first states that the state would be foolish to allow easement. I've since remembered that the snowmobile trail I referenced is actually a class 6 Town Rd. I would hope that is something to work with. The second states that the WOW trail federal funding only applies to construction on the rail road track. To this I encourage we take a closer look and get creative for another source of funding for an alternate portion of the trail.

A large percentage of the alternate trail I propose is already paved therefore there would not be as significant of an expenditure to create a rideable surface. If the calculation turns out that the expense to connect Severance back to the tracks is more than what is saved with the alternate route pre-paved surface, and the trail organizers find a shortfall from the government funding, I have this solution. Work out a deal with us to create the WOW Welcome Center on the corner of Severance and Parade. We have the land and I'm certain that if Alan Beetle and I sat down at a table and talked about it, we could come up with a strategy that gave this WOW welcome center a foundation for profit through food and beverage. Those profits or a potion of, can be dedicated to the trail to offset the expense.

Please understand that to help make this happen, we would likely lose some of our realestate. I would hope that in appreciation of said sacrifice the SD/LB community would find a permanent way for golf cart access to The Mystic Meadows.

There we have it. The trail gets built, SD/LB don't have to deal with a fence and other concerns. Trail riders have a great welcome center and nobody crashes into a boulder.

[joey2665]

Baygo that is an excellent viable solution and everyone wins in the end. I would think all parties would consider this alternative instead of wasting time in court and money on attorneys


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[thinkxingu]

You are absolutely right, terrible things could come from, and easily be classified criminal from, some maliciously placed boulders. A reality is: how do you catch the culprit? Yes people could get hurt and a lot of money would be wasted on removing the boulders in the interim.

In a previous post I mention a potential alternative of bringing the trail down Elm Street to Parade Road and up to Severance Rd, then down to the tracks on what I referred to as the snowmobile trail through the state forest. That post was apposed by two seemingly legitimate views. The first states that the state would be foolish to allow easement. I've since remembered that the snowmobile trail I referenced is actually a class 6 Town Rd. I would hope that is something to work with. The second states that the WOW trail federal funding only applies to construction on the rail road track. To this I encourage we take a closer look and get creative for another source of funding for an alternate portion of the trail.

A large percentage of the alternate trail I propose is already paved therefore there would not be as significant of an expenditure to create a rideable surface. If the calculation turns out that the expense to connect Severance back to the tracks is more than what is saved with the alternate route pre-paved surface, and the trail organizers find a shortfall from the government funding, I have this solution. Work out a deal with us to create the WOW Welcome Center on the corner of Severance and Parade. We have the land and I'm certain that if Alan Beetle and I sat down at a table and talked about it, we could come up with a strategy that gave this WOW welcome center a foundation for profit through food and beverage. Those profits or a potion of, can be dedicated to the trail to offset the expense.

Please understand that to help make this happen, we would likely lose some of our realestate. I would hope that in appreciation of said sacrifice the SD/LB community would find a permanent way for golf cart access to The Mystic Meadows.

There we have it. The trail gets built, SD/LB don't have to deal with a fence and other concerns. Trail riders have a great welcome center and nobody crashes into a boulder.
I'm not totally familiar with the routes proposed, but this sounds as if anyone who doesn't want the path near them just needs to threaten a lawsuit and come up with another option. Isn't the point of the path to be along the lake?

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[jeffk]

You are absolutely right, terrible things could come from, and easily be classified criminal from, some maliciously placed boulders. A reality is: how do you catch the culprit? Yes people could get hurt and a lot of money would be wasted on removing the boulders in the interim.

In a previous post I mention a potential alternative of bringing the trail down Elm Street to Parade Road and up to Severance Rd, then down to the tracks on what I referred to as the snowmobile trail through the state forest. That post was apposed by two seemingly legitimate views. The first states that the state would be foolish to allow easement. I've since remembered that the snowmobile trail I referenced is actually a class 6 Town Rd. I would hope that is something to work with. The second states that the WOW trail federal funding only applies to construction on the rail road track. To this I encourage we take a closer look and get creative for another source of funding for an alternate portion of the trail.

A large percentage of the alternate trail I propose is already paved therefore there would not be as significant of an expenditure to create a rideable surface. If the calculation turns out that the expense to connect Severance back to the tracks is more than what is saved with the alternate route pre-paved surface, and the trail organizers find a shortfall from the government funding, I have this solution. Work out a deal with us to create the WOW Welcome Center on the corner of Severance and Parade. We have the land and I'm certain that if Alan Beetle and I sat down at a table and talked about it, we could come up with a strategy that gave this WOW welcome center a foundation for profit through food and beverage. Those profits or a potion of, can be dedicated to the trail to offset the expense.

Please understand that to help make this happen, we would likely lose some of our realestate. I would hope that in appreciation of said sacrifice the SD/LB community would find a permanent way for golf cart access to The Mystic Meadows.

There we have it. The trail gets built, SD/LB don't have to deal with a fence and other concerns. Trail riders have a great welcome center and nobody crashes into a boulder.

WOW! (no pun intended) So the way to avoid your terrorist boulder placers is to adopt your plan? Moving boulders isn't a casual effort and should be detectable. How about we make every effort to find out who they are and throw them in jail and put their mugs on posters along the trail. "Look out for and report these thugs!".

To be clear, I really don't care if an alternative trail route is decided on. If all are happy about it, great. I applaud offering this alternative solution.

I REALLY DON'T like making decisions based on veiled threats and intimidation. Court fights are one thing. That is how society works out it's differences. Threatened boulders in the trail are a whole different thing. It's like walking into a discussion with a blatantly obvious weapon with the clear intention of intimidating the other people in the room. Cowering before criminals is NOT a good plan to deal with the situation. Talk about a WRONG message.

[jetskier]

Hi all,

Generally, I prefer to stay out of the discussion, but I thought it prudent to supply a few facts.


I laud baygo's offer to broker a solution.
Multiple alternative routes (including the one supported by baygo) have been suggested to the WOW Org by SD/LB. This includes the route that baygo has suggested. The reticence to negotiate an alternative is certainly not on the part of SD/LB. I would encourage baygo to meet with Alan and Gretchen to provide his views. That would be helpful and his offer is generous.
The litigation is not something that SD/LB wanted to initiate. There have been many attempts to reach an alternative route with the WOW Org. This was an action of last resort and not a punitive response.
The land that connects SD/LB with baygo is privately owned. SD/LB have no say as to whether golf carts are or are not allowed. Perhaps baygo could meet with the owners and work something out.


Jetskier :cool:

[joey2665]

Hi all,

Generally, I prefer to stay out of the discussion, but I thought it prudent to supply a few facts.


I laud baygo's offer to broker a solution.
Multiple alternative routes (including the one supported by baygo) have been suggested to the WOW Org by SD/LB. This includes the route that baygo has suggested. The reticence to negotiate an alternative is certainly not on the part of SD/LB. I would encourage baygo to meet with Alan and Gretchen to provide his views. That would be helpful and his offer is generous.
The litigation is not something that SD/LB wanted to initiate. There have been many attempts to reach an alternative route with the WOW Org. This was an action of last resort and not a punitive response.
The land that connects SD/LB with baygo is privately owned. SD/LB have no say as to whether golf carts are or are not allowed. Perhaps baygo could meet with the owners and work something out.


Jetskier :cool:

Thank you Jetskier very informative.

[baygo]

The land that connects SD/LB with baygo is privately owned. SD/LB have no say as to whether golf carts are or are not allowed. Perhaps baygo could meet with the owners and work something out.


Jetskier :cool:

Thank you. You may not chime in often but when you do, it's valued.

The exterior borders of the property that you state is privetly owned has a 6 foot
communal border defined by a strip of grass that is cut by SD maintenance. Just enough for a cart trail.

[baygo]

WOW! (no pun intended) So the way to avoid your terrorist boulder placers is to adopt your plan? Moving boulders isn't a casual effort and should be detectable. How about we make every effort to find out who they are and throw them in jail and put their mugs on posters along the trail. "Look out for and report these thugs!".

To be clear, I really don't care if an alternative trail route is decided on. If all are happy about it, great. I applaud offering this alternative solution.

I REALLY DON'T like making decisions based on veiled threats and intimidation. Court fights are one thing. That is how society works out it's differences. Threatened boulders in the trail are a whole different thing. It's like walking into a discussion with a blatantly obvious weapon with the clear intention of intimidating the other people in the room. Cowering before criminals is NOT a good plan to deal with the situation. Talk about a WRONG message.

They are not my " terrorist boulder placers" nor am I insinuating any threat by me. There are close to 2,000 people living in SD/LB and it's a law of averages that there's at least one who would be very bitter if a lot of money was lost in a court battle and then the trail infringes (in his or her mind) on his life. Perhaps it's not boulders, perhaps he or she kept removing the fence. I really don't think it's realistic to rely on a neighbor notifying law enforcement that someone took down the fence that the neighbor didn't like in the first place.

This issue is just too confrontational and will cost/waste way too much money if it stays on its current course.

[baygo]

WOW! (no pun intended) So the way to avoid your terrorist boulder placers is to adopt your plan? Moving boulders isn't a casual effort and should be detectable. How about we make every effort to find out who they are and throw them in jail and put their mugs on posters along the trail. "Look out for and report these thugs!".

To be clear, I really don't care if an alternative trail route is decided on. If all are happy about it, great. I applaud offering this alternative solution.

I REALLY DON'T like making decisions based on veiled threats and intimidation. Court fights are one thing. That is how society works out it's differences. Threatened boulders in the trail are a whole different thing. It's like walking into a discussion with a blatantly obvious weapon with the clear intention of intimidating the other people in the room. Cowering before criminals is NOT a good plan to deal with the situation. Talk about a WRONG message.

They are not my " terrorist boulder placers" nor am I insinuating any threat by me. There are close to 2,000 people living in SD/LB and it's a law of averages that there's at least one who would be very bitter if a lot of money was lost in a court battle and then the trail infringes (in his or her mind) on their life. Perhaps it's not boulders, perhaps he or she kept removing the fence. I really don't think it's realistic to rely on a neighbor notifying law enforcement that someone took down the fence that the neighbor didn't like in the first place.

This issue is just too confrontational and will cost/waste way too much money if it stays on its current course. I wonder what would happen if we total up the money being conceited for legal cost and instead marked it to fund an alternative

[Red apple]

While I think some of the ideas to "go around" SDS/LB are great and even could work from the research I did the rails to trails fund must be on railroad tracks. So even if they would consider it would have to be self funded. I lived in SDS for four years and was on the board. At the time I left the stance was to fight it at whatever cost but as I read through this I see a spilt stance on the homeowners. Someone in SDS should do what's needed to put a vote together on the yearly meeting coming up so all the homeowners can vote to on what to do and if needed how much money to spend. Just my 2 cents and that about all it's worth.


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[Outdoorsman]

They are not my " terrorist boulder placers" nor am I insinuating any threat by me. There are close to 2,000 people living in SD/LB and it's a law of averages that there's at least one who would be very bitter if a lot of money was lost in a court battle and then the trail infringes (in his or her mind) on his life. Perhaps it's not boulders, perhaps he or she kept removing the fence. I really don't think it's realistic to rely on a neighbor notifying law enforcement that someone took down the fence that the neighbor didn't like in the first place.

This issue is just too confrontational and will cost/waste way too much money if it stays on its current course.

Game Cam's or Trail Cam's are not expensive at all. Even LE uses them in certain situations. Especially Fish and Game. So let him or her continue. No need for a neighbor to notify law enforcement.

[joey2665]

"South Down and Long Bay position regarding the construction of the WOW Trail along the railroad right of way. In order to present a more factual representation we have created an informational website":

www.notthroughsdlb.com

Please note that this is their official stance on the Trail. I myself (a 10 year owner in SD then LB) do not agree with their position. Honestly whether you want the trail for various reasons or not, this site is complete propaganda. Crime and safety are and issue with out without the trail. It is just as easy to walk down or along the tracks than it is if you have the trail, the RR, beach access and boat clubs obviously there already so in my opinion there is no new issues that the trail creates are the criminal activity was there before the trail.

[Woodsy]

WOW.... its almost factual!

SD/LB already have public access thru their private community. The RR ROW is a snowmobile corridor trail used by the public... snowmobilers, hikers, etc....

just more NIMBY


Woodsy

[Major]

Crime is only one aspect of SD/LB position. I disagree with Joey. The WOW trail will create a defined avenue of egress, especially for a person riding a bike at night. I think it would be difficult to ride a bike along the side of the track at night in its present condition.

I know people who work (or worked ) for the Laconia police department. As I've stated in prior posts, publicly, they take a favorable position to the WOW trail. (I don't know why, but as witnessed by this forum, it is not very PC to be against it!) Privately, my source states that it is a defined avenue of egress for crime committed in Laconia and it is an attractive nuisance for crime, especially when committed at night. The WOW trail makes policing difficult.

I wouldn't focus on the crime aspect of the position. The environmental impact is a concern. Also, liability is perhaps the biggest concern. As stated previously, the WOW trail organizers are lobbying to have the Hobo railroad shut down. The owners of SD/LB already pay for this liability for its residents; however, any such policy would not apply to users of the WOW trail. Who is going to pay for it.

One thing I learned today is that the City of Laconia paid $400,000 for Phase II. As a taxpayer and resident, I am disappointed to hear this. The money could have been spent on more worthwhile things, like teacher raises. Or perhaps, a refund to the taxpayers, heaven forbid! Based on this contribution, I wonder what the City's obligation will be for Phase III?

[joey2665]

Crime is only one aspect of SD/LB position. I disagree with Joey. The WOW trail will create a defined avenue of egress, especially for a person riding a bike at night. I think it would be difficult to ride a bike along the side of the track at night in its present condition.

I know people who work (or worked ) for the Laconia police department. As I've stated in prior posts, publicly, they take a favorable position to the WOW trail. (I don't know why, but as witnessed by this forum, it is not very PC to be against it!) Privately, my source states that it is a defined avenue of egress for crime committed in Laconia and it is an attractive nuisance for crime, especially when committed at night. The WOW trail makes policing difficult.

I wouldn't focus on the crime aspect of the position. The environmental impact is a concern. Also, liability is perhaps the biggest concern. As stated previously, the WOW trail organizers are lobbying to have the Hobo railroad shut down. The owners of SD/LB already pay for this liability for its residents; however, any such policy would not apply to users of the WOW trail. Who is going to pay for it.

One thing I learned today is that the City of Laconia paid $400,000 for Phase II. As a taxpayer and resident, I am disappointed to hear this. The money could have been spent on more worthwhile things, like teacher raises. Or perhaps, a refund to the taxpayers, heaven forbid! Based on this contribution, I wonder what the City's obligation will be for Phase III?

Ride a bike, walk ect doesn't matter. I do not think crime is an issue either way as stated my home in LB was broken into and the walked down the tracks at night. My opinion change when I actually experienced the current trail for myself and found it quite enjoyable, I am the last person to be "PC". I also do not think liability is and issue as it is not much different than the current liability situation.

Were I absolutely agree with "Major" is, I do not think that phase III should be place on the shoulders of the tax payers. Private sponsorship, federal funding and donations should be used if not then I do not think phase III should be completed.

[Paugus]

I saw this on the WOW Trail Facebook page last week. Anyone know more about this?

"This week's #throwbackthursday is brought to you by South Down Shores & Long Bay developer John Davidson and the City of Laconia Planning Board circa 1986. "Mr. deHaven questioned if the bike path was public. Davidson explained that by a condition of the Planning Board that a bicycle path was required."

https://www.facebook.com/WOWTrail/posts/10155337886832071

[jetskier]

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/opinion/letters/105160-john-walker-just-what-is-community-minded-what-is-selfish

Jetskier:cool:

[Seaplane Pilot]

Playing the "safety" card!

[Major]

Playing the "safety" card!

It's a legitimate concern. During busy times, the forklift travels over the railroad tracks 200+ times a day. If the WOW trail is built, who has the right of way at the intersection of the WOW trail and the boat launch? If the forklift does, how does he stop in time when a bicyclist or a runner blows through the stop sign. Who's liable? Will the insurance obtained by the WOW trail and/or SD/LB protect them from liability?

[joey2665]

Playing the "safety" card!


I agree the safety card is just a smoke screen. The forklift, people and the train manage to get around the SDBC everyday including the extremely busy holiday weekends without issue I have had my boat there for 10 years

[brk-lnt]

I agree the safety card is just a smoke screen. The forklift, people and the train manage to get around the SDBC everyday including the extremely busy holiday weekends without issue I have had my boat there for 10 years

The train is slow moving and very easy to see approaching. The people around the area on busy weekend also tend to be familiar with the marina, tracks, etc., and have a certain degree of situational awareness. If you build a trail that encourages people not familiar with the environment to pass through you statistically increase the risk of incidents due to decreased situational awareness. It is basically the same as the "out of town driver" problem in busy cities.

[Paugus]

The train is slow moving and very easy to see approaching. The people around the area on busy weekend also tend to be familiar with the marina, tracks, etc., and have a certain degree of situational awareness. If you build a trail that encourages people not familiar with the environment to pass through you statistically increase the risk of incidents due to decreased situational awareness. It is basically the same as the "out of town driver" problem in busy cities.
Would this apply? https://www.nhstateparks.org/about-us/Trails/Laws/recreational-use-statutes.aspx

[joey2665]

The train is slow moving and very easy to see approaching. The people around the area on busy weekend also tend to be familiar with the marina, tracks, etc., and have a certain degree of situational awareness. If you build a trail that encourages people not familiar with the environment to pass through you statistically increase the risk of incidents due to decreased situational awareness. It is basically the same as the "out of town driver" problem in busy cities.

I completely disagree, people are not morons and many out the "out of towners" are used to running, jogging, biking ect of much busier city streets. The lift, much like the train is also slow moving.

There are other battles to fight if you do not want the trail, such (and most importantly that would effect the everyone in Laconia) is where the funding is coming from that are much more legitimate arguments. Which I am completely on board with, if funds are coming from the city directly or via higher property tax I am completely against it.

[Seaplane Pilot]

It's a legitimate concern. During busy times, the forklift travels over the railroad tracks 200+ times a day. If the WOW trail is built, who has the right of way at the intersection of the WOW trail and the boat launch? If the forklift does, how does he stop in time when a bicyclist or a runner blows through the stop sign. Who's liable? Will the insurance obtained by the WOW trail and/or SD/LB protect them from liability?

Ok, so the WOW trail can build a pedestrian bridge across the ROW that the forklift uses. In fact, South Down should pay 1/2 of this cost (in my opinion). Problem solved.

[Major]

Ok, so the WOW trail can build a pedestrian bridge across the ROW that the forklift uses. In fact, South Down should pay 1/2 of this cost (in my opinion). Problem solved.

It would have to be quite a pedestrian walkway! Have you seen the forklift used to lift boats up to 26' long? The walkway would have to have a clearance of 15' or more. Anyway, the cost of such a walkway would be trivial compared to the engineering and construction costs involved in the areas near Lakeport Landing, Pickerel Cove, Perch Cove and the Weirs Beach bridge. I bet each section with be $1,000,000 or more.

[jetskier]

It would have to be quite a pedestrian walkway! Have you seen the forklift used to lift boats up to 26' long? The walkway would have to have a clearance of 15' or more. Anyway, the cost of such a walkway would be trivial compared to the engineering and construction costs involved in the areas near Lakeport Landing, Pickerel Cove, Perch Cove and the Weirs Beach bridge. I bet each section with be $1,000,000 or more.

Some of the requisite bridges will be as much as 1,000 ft long (ex: Chattel cove). If the bridge is 12' wide (to support a 10' trail and guard rails), then the overall square footage is 12,000 square feet. The cost range for this type of bridge is $150 to $250 per square foot. Therefore it would cost north of about $2M for that bridge alone. Pickerel Cove will require about an 800' bridge so something north of $1.4M. Just saying...

Jetskier:cool:

[BroadHopper]

That's a new one! SB/LB is all for the Parade Road to Hilliard Rd route, which comprise of a steep hill that most people would think twice about. The Severance Road cut will be a must nicer proposal if the SB/LB will accept it. I bet because Severance Road cuts through their 'back yard', they may not approve it.

The problem is federal and state grants. They are set up for approval along existing or old RR beds. Where is the money going to come from if they change the route?

Also I believe Class 6 roads are privately owned and may require easements from current deeds. This brings up the Durrell Mountain Road and Hoadley Road fiaso. located on the Gilford and Belmont Line. Both roads are Class 6 and used by 4X4 and ATV for years. After a lengthy battle the court agrees the roads transferred to abutting landowners by some statute of limitation and were declared private properties. Hoadley Road is closed. Durrell Mountain is closed to motorized vehicles except snowmobiles.

The Severance Road proposal is a good one, but it looks like it faced a lot of obstacles.

[baygo]

That's a new one! SB/LB is all for the Parade Road to Hilliard Rd route, which comprise of a steep hill that most people would think twice about. The Severance Road cut will be a must nicer proposal if the SB/LB will accept it. I bet because Severance Road cuts through their 'back yard', they may not approve it.

The problem is federal and state grants. They are set up for approval along existing or old RR beds. Where is the money going to come from if they change the route?

Also I believe Class 6 roads are privately owned and may require easements from current deeds. This brings up the Durrell Mountain Road and Hoadley Road fiaso. located on the Gilford and Belmont Line. Both roads are Class 6 and used by 4X4 and ATV for years. After a lengthy battle the court agrees the roads transferred to abutting landowners by some statute of limitation and were declared private properties. Hoadley Road is closed. Durrell Mountain is closed to motorized vehicles except snowmobiles.

The Severance Road proposal is a good one, but it looks like it faced a lot of obstacles.

This seems to be some pretty good feedback. Not certain what all the obstacles would be but I sense nothing is insurmountable.

I recently looked at the WOW trail map and one thing I notice is that parking could become a serious problem for the downtown. Assuming the trial is a huge success it may not be far-fetched to assume 500 cars could converge on the downtown and be left parking for four or five hours while people are riding on the trail. That could really create a huge economic downturn in for the downtown. A WOW trail welcome center on Severance could help with such a problem. In the event that the demand for parking exceeded what could be made available near severance there is the additional parking option of Robbie mills Field and Elm Street school.

The welcome center could be operated for profit to benefit the trail and offset the loss of federal funding for the portion that isn't along the tracks.

[jetskier]

This seems to be some pretty good feedback. Not certain what all the obstacles would be but I sense nothing is insurmountable.

I recently looked at the WOW trail map and one thing I notice is that parking could become a serious problem for the downtown. Assuming the trial is a huge success it may not be far-fetched to assume 500 cars could converge on the downtown and be left parking for four or five hours while people are riding on the trail. That could really create a huge economic downturn in for the downtown. A WOW trail welcome center on Severance could help with such a problem. In the event that the demand for parking exceeded what could be made available near severance there is the additional parking option of Robbie mills Field and Elm Street school.

The welcome center could be operated for profit to benefit the trail and offset the loss of federal funding for the portion that isn't along the tracks.

Baygo - of merit is the fact that the construction of the trail along this proposed route will be much cheaper than along the shore front. It will not involve building bridges or (potentially) dealing with the trestle underpass at the Weirs. In addition, there will be no need for fences or exorbitant insurance
which we know is also of issue.

Jetskier:cool:

[Outdoorsman]

During the summer, the South Down Boat Club is a very busy, and a potentially dangerous operation.

Someone needs to contact OSHA about this immediate and imminent threat to public safety!

[Outdoorsman]

The train is slow moving and very easy to see approaching. The people around the area on busy weekend also tend to be familiar with the marina, tracks, etc., and have a certain degree of situational awareness. If you build a trail that encourages people not familiar with the environment to pass through you statistically increase the risk of incidents due to decreased situational awareness. It is basically the same as the "out of town driver" problem in busy cities.

Another reason to have OSHA visit the SD Boat Club. It sounds like a very dangerous operation for the residents of SD/LB. I would be willing to bet that situational awareness is an insufficient reason to operate the way it was described in the LDS letter.

This is a public safety concern after-all.

[joey2665]

"South Down and Long Bay position regarding the construction of the WOW Trail along the railroad right of way. In order to present a more factual representation we have created an informational website":

www.notthroughsdlb.com

Please note that this is their official stance on the Trail. I myself (a 10 year owner in SD then LB) do not agree with their position. Honestly whether you want the trail for various reasons or not, this site is complete propaganda. Crime and safety are and issue with out without the trail. It is just as easy to walk down or along the tracks than it is if you have the trail, the RR, beach access and boat clubs obviously there already so in my opinion there is no new issues that the trail creates are the criminal activity was there before the trail.

Reprimanded by LBHOA for posting this link on the Winnipesaukee site. Guess I am not allow to have a different opinion from them. Thanks Jetskier!

Oh Well!!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Just Sold]

Reprimanded by LBHOA for posting this link on the Winnipesaukee site. Guess I am not allow to have a different opinion from them. Thanks Jetskier!

Oh Well!!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Their web site domain is public and it is a free country to post it. Although they can restrict access to their site and to what the general public can see.

[joey2665]

Their web site domain is public and it is a free country to post it. Although they can restrict access to their site and to what the general public can see.

I was told via e mail that the confidentiality is "implied".
:eek::laugh::rolleye1:

I am sure if I agreed 100% with their position it would not have become an issue.

[Winopt]

Why does the WOW trail have to be seasonal? It would make a great snowmobile trail as well.

[BroadHopper]

If they want to preserve the land, why are they building on the land? They should leave it alone and let nature do her thing! Preservation my butt!

[brk-lnt]

Another reason to have OSHA visit the SD Boat Club. It sounds like a very dangerous operation for the residents of SD/LB. I would be willing to bet that situational awareness is an insufficient reason to operate the way it was described in the LDS letter.

This is a public safety concern after-all.

You sound like an alarmist fool. OSHA? What makes you think there are occupational safety hazard violations by the employees of the marina? They always seemed to operate safely when I observed them. But please, tell me about your first-hand experiences at the South Down marina that supports your claim.

[thinkxingu]

You sound like an alarmist fool. OSHA? What makes you think there are occupational safety hazard violations by the employees of the marina? They always seemed to operate safely when I observed them. But please, tell me about your first-hand experiences at the South Down marina that supports your claim.
Ummm...satire.

Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk

[brk-lnt]

Ummm...satire.

Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk

Given his other posts on this thread, I don't think it's satire. I think it is more "belligerent keyboard warrior". If I'm wrong, and it's satire, I'm sure he'll be happy to correct me and let us know that his comments/suggestions were all in jest.

[thinkxingu]

Given his other posts on this thread, I don't think it's satire. I think it is more "belligerent keyboard warrior". If I'm wrong, and it's satire, I'm sure he'll be happy to correct me and let us know that his comments/suggestions were all in jest.
Hyperbole in an attempt to point out absurdity. More specifically, OSHA as a hyperbolic suggestion in response to the anti-trail "concern" for safety.

Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk

[BroadHopper]

I remember when OSHA was formed in the mid 70's. I was a grocery clerk at a large supermarket chain. OSHA made a ruling that if you are working with anything that requires you to work above the neckline you are required to wear a hard hat. Well believe it or not there was a time we were stocking shelves with hard hats on!

[Outdoorsman]

You sound like an alarmist fool. OSHA? What makes you think there are occupational safety hazard violations by the employees of the marina? They always seemed to operate safely when I observed them. But please, tell me about your first-hand experiences at the South Down marina that supports your claim.

I have no first hand experience!

My post was just pointing out how ridiculous that particular argument is. (IMO) If you choose to throw "Its a safety issue" at the wall to see if it sticks, so be it; Just be prepared for other to dispute it.

If public safety is an issue with the private marina (as implied) and they can not operate SAFELY within their property, than it is an OSHA issue not a WOW trail issue.

Originally Posted by brk-lnt View Post
The train is slow moving and very easy to see approaching. The people around the area on busy weekend also tend to be familiar with the marina, tracks, etc., and have a certain degree of situational awareness. If you build a trail that encourages people not familiar with the environment to pass through you statistically increase the risk of incidents due to decreased situational awareness. It is basically the same as the "out of town driver" problem in busy city[/b]


Choose your battles wisely is what I was taught.




Originally Posted by thinkxingu
Hyperbole in an attempt to point out absurdity. More specifically, OSHA as a hyperbolic suggestion in response to the anti-trail "concern" for safety.

You hit the nail on the head.

Sarcasm does not always come across in the written word the way you envision it in your head.

Thank you

[laketrout]

I own and operate a restaurant that abuts the SD/LB community. My first summer the residents were coming by way of golf cart. Word of this spread by way of many channels and created additional interest in owning a home there. I'm approved by the city to offer groceries as well. Just as I was about to per sue that someone decided to start putting obstacles in the way of the golf carts. I dropped my interest in groceries.

I wouldn't be surprised by it if the trail gets built and bikers encounter big rocks placed on the trail. I think the trail organizers seriously need to consider this in their maintenance and upkeep projections.

Its all Liability insurance Ray. Your place is awesome (Groceries and cold beverages even bags of ice- that would be great), and even better in my golf cart. The one condo closest to you in the SDS development shut it down and put the rock in front of the fence, at least thats what I heard.

[laketrout]

Some of the requisite bridges will be as much as 1,000 ft long (ex: Chattel cove). If the bridge is 12' wide (to support a 10' trail and guard rails), then the overall square footage is 12,000 square feet. The cost range for this type of bridge is $150 to $250 per square foot. Therefore it would cost north of about $2M for that bridge alone. Pickerel Cove will require about an 800' bridge so something north of $1.4M. Just saying...

Jetskier:cool:

Pickerel Cove is a nice spot the railroad tracks that go along the water at that point is probably 8' wide there is no room for a walking trail without heavy material/landfill modification. The current Pickerel Cove train tracks Causeway over the water would need to be filled in to get the 10' required Wow ROW.

[WakeboardMom]

Ok, so the WOW trail can build a pedestrian bridge across the ROW that the forklift uses. In fact, South Down should pay 1/2 of this cost (in my opinion). Problem solved.

Red herring. I live by Trexler's Marina, where on a Saturday morning, the forklift is back-and-forth across the street, folks are checking out of cottages on LI and the trailers in the park so there's that kind of traffic, plus runners, walkers and bikers are on the road, and there's no big issue. It's what constitutes "traffic" here at our lovely lake.
:)

[Paugus]

Hi all,

Generally, I prefer to stay out of the discussion, but I thought it prudent to supply a few facts.


I laud baygo's offer to broker a solution.
Multiple alternative routes (including the one supported by baygo) have been suggested to the WOW Org by SD/LB. This includes the route that baygo has suggested. The reticence to negotiate an alternative is certainly not on the part of SD/LB. I would encourage baygo to meet with Alan and Gretchen to provide his views. That would be helpful and his offer is generous.
The litigation is not something that SD/LB wanted to initiate. There have been many attempts to reach an alternative route with the WOW Org. This was an action of last resort and not a punitive response.
The land that connects SD/LB with baygo is privately owned. SD/LB have no say as to whether golf carts are or are not allowed. Perhaps baygo could meet with the owners and work something out.


Jetskier :cool:

Did anyone see this? http://www.laconiadailysun.com/special-sections/columns/105393-gretchen-gandini-6-22-615

"They asked if an alternative route (not along the lakeshore) had ever been considered and I was able to explain that, as recently as February, we had suggested an alternative route through their property for consideration, but that this alternative route had been rejected by their executive board."

[thinkxingu]

Nicely worded letter. I especially like the subtle reminders about the state-owned ROW and development plan requirement for the path.

Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk

[jetskier]

Did anyone see this? http://www.laconiadailysun.com/special-sections/columns/105393-gretchen-gandini-6-22-615

"They asked if an alternative route (not along the lake shore) had ever been considered and I was able to explain that, as recently as February, we had suggested an alternative route through their property for consideration, but that this alternative route had been rejected by their executive board."

The engagement occurred when the attorney for SD/LB wanted to reach out one more time to see if a solution could be reached. This was an attempt to avoid litigation. He met with Alan Beetle; Alan proposed a route that crossed Laconia CC (private property and crossed across SD and village private property (and crossed through Outerbridge Drive). A source for Laconia CC indicated that they would not allow the trail on their private property (either).

The proposal from Baygo and SD is to route up Elm Street and across Rt 106. The trail could either go down Severance Drive or continue about 1.2 miles on Rt 106 where it could directly cut into the state forest. There was an engineering study done a while back proposing this as the best route. If the WOW org wants a copy, it can be supplied.

Advantages:

+ Baygo has offered to provide land for a welcome center and parking.
+ Construction costs will be considerably cheaper than building along the frontage...no fence, no bridges etc...
+ The route uses public ROW along roads...no issues.
+ No issue connecting to the Weirs (connect via Hilliard Rd)...don't have to deal with the trestle underpass.
+ The trail would not be operating alongside an active railroad or contending with marinas or traffic crossing to the shore front.
+ The trail can be built even if Federal funding dries up (indications are that it probably will).
+ The environmental impact is minimized

In addition, it has been suggested that the Hobo railroad could be fitted with bike racks and connect segments without building along Paugus Bay (that was also rejected by the WOW Org.) Another viable option is to consider the trail from Severance Drive to the Weirs. This would make Tavern 27 an end point and the welcome center would be at the beginning of a trail segment.

SD/LB have reached out many times over a number of years to try to reach a viable solution that does not involve the frontage or crossing private property. The article miss-characterizes the history of the interaction.

Jetskier :cool:

[AC2717]

The engagement occurred when the attorney for SD/LB wanted to reach out one more time to see if a solution could be reached. This was an attempt to avoid litigation. He met with Alan Beetle; Alan proposed a route that crossed Laconia CC (private property and crossed across SD and village private property (and crossed through Outerbridge Drive). A source for Laconia CC indicated that they would not allow the trail on their private property (either).

The proposal from Baygo and SD is to route up Elm Street and across Rt 106. The trail could either go down Severance Drive or continue about 1.2 miles on Rt 106 where it could directly cut into the state forest. There was an engineering study done a while back proposing this as the best route. If the WOW org wants a copy, it can be supplied.

Advantages:

+ Baygo has offered to provide land for a welcome center and parking.
+ Construction costs will be considerably cheaper than building along the frontage...no fence, no bridges etc...
+ The route uses public ROW along roads...no issues.
+ No issue connecting to the Weirs (connect via Hilliard Rd)...don't have to deal with the trestle underpass.
+ The trail would not be operating alongside an active railroad or contending with marinas or traffic crossing to the shore front.
+ The trail can be built even if Federal funding dries up (indications are that it probably will).
+ The environmental impact is minimized

In addition, it has been suggested that the Hobo railroad could be fitted with bike racks and connect segments without building along Paugus Bay (that was also rejected by the WOW Org.) Another viable option is to consider the trail from Severance Drive to the Weirs. This would make Tavern 27 an end point and the welcome center would be at the beginning of a trail segment.

SD/LB have reached out many times over a number of years to try to reach a viable solution that does not involve the frontage or crossing private property. The article miss-characterizes the history of the interaction.

Jetskier :cool:

While I, if living there would like this alternative, I always like to point out the hypocrisy of these bike trails.

All this conservation land that cant be developed because of some who knows frog or beetle or worm, or some wildlife, and also abutting conservation land and you can't do this or that or anything in general. Yet in my town they blaze a bike path/trail right down the middle of conservation land and marsh water area with a bridge 12 feet wide and winding in and right down the marsh area atleast 400 feet long with signs, covered areas and bump outs to sit and giant pilings right into the marsh and everything, just like this alternative would blast right into a forest.

Again I think the path in my area is fine in that area, but funny how someone couldn't put a shed on their own property within 15 feet of the conservation land you abut because some soft shelled spotted turtle lives somewhere on the other side of the marsh land and may visit and be scared by your shed

[kjkam]

For those proposing Hilliard road as an option to connect to the Wiers, have you walked that road, any part of it, narrow, and some major hills, and not well maintained

No dog in this fight, but my guess is that the budget doesn't fit any way they run this trail, it always costs more than they plan....

[fatlazyless]

Via the proposed www.wowtrail.org, peddling a bicycle the 9-miles from the Laconia Public Library to the Meredith Public Library, all along the flat, easy to peddle Wow Trail could take maybe one or two hours to do it. One hour on a bicycle is probably doable for many people, plus the flat terrain of the railroad, waterfront right of way works good for bicycles.

Weirs Beach has a beach, and is located right in the middle of the 9-mile long Wow Trail, so that could be a good spot to park your bike and go hit the beach......seems like it's all very doable?

Once the Wow Trail gets built and is one year old, people will be saying ...... Like WOW! ....what a great trail!.....so, how come this wasn't built like 40-years ago ....how come it took so long to get it built........wow!:D

[kjkam]

The latest map I've seen looks like it will not follow the tracks all the way to the weirs, instead detour around pickrel and singing coves (i guess making use of Hilliard Road) Is that correct?http://www.laconiadailysun.com/images/LDS_pictures/WOW-Trail-Map-Phase-3.jpg

[thinkxingu]

An article on WOW Trail "ambassadors": http://www.laconiadailysun.com/community/community-announcements/106183-072017-wowtrailambassdors

[feb]

Last week I decided to try this trail out. First impressions were great. The section from Laconia to Winnisquam was peaceful. You get some views of the lake but most is obstructed by trees which is fine. The section from Laconia to Lakeport was a little more dreary only because you have to use streets a little bit and also see more of the backs of business. Still it was nice to be able to ride that distance without worrying about car traffic.

I was surprised how much the trail was used. I passed several families walking and/or riding, some joggers, some retirees strolling along, some dog walkers and some bicyclists. All in all I'd say I passed about 30 people in the 2 times I used it. Unfortunately we did see a guy passed out at the picnic table at the Lakeport end but it is what it is.

Overall it was nice. If they ever get the section from Lakeport to Meredith built I believe it would be very popular. The total mileage of the current trail isn't much but its still something relaxing to do and burn a few calories.

[thinkxingu]

Last week I decided to try this trail out. First impressions were great. The section from Laconia to Winnisquam was peaceful. You get some views of the lake but most is obstructed by trees which is fine. The section from Laconia to Lakeport was a little more dreary only because you have to use streets a little bit and also see more of the backs of business. Still it was nice to be able to ride that distance without worrying about car traffic.

I was surprised how much the trail was used. I passed several families walking and/or riding, some joggers, some retirees strolling along, some dog walkers and some bicyclists. All in all I'd say I passed about 30 people in the 2 times I used it. Unfortunately we did see a guy passed out at the picnic table at the Lakeport end but it is what it is.

Overall it was nice. If they ever get the section from Lakeport to Meredith built I believe it would be very popular. The total mileage of the current trail isn't much but its still something relaxing to do and burn a few calories.

He wasn't "passed out," he was relaxing "en plein air." Much classier!

[Paugus]

Looks like the State isn't biting on this lawsuit.
http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx/local-news/106790-state-says-wow-trail-lawsuit-premature

[jetskier]

Looks like the State isn't biting on this lawsuit.
http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx/local-news/106790-state-says-wow-trail-lawsuit-premature

Not the case....

The WOW Org has been saying that they would be filing plans by the fall for Phase III. Now they are saying that it might be 4 or 5 years before they file plans. That is what they told DOT. The litigation was filed based upon the view that the WOW Org would imminently be filing plans with the city - that is what they publicly said.

DOT had to respond to the SD/LB petition by 8/11/17 and they requested an extension of 30 days. SD/LB agreed to this extension. DOT's concern is whether the action is premature since now the WOW Org is saying that it is going to be years (a different story than a few months ago). So, fundamentally no action has been taken by either side. SD/LB have the right to proceed to court and DOT has the right to determine whether they want to settle this by not granting permission to the WOW Org. If the litigation is delayed, it is just that. It will be simply be put aside until things progress...if that is the decision. The basis of the litigation stands.

It is clear that the article in the Laconia Daily Sun was focusing on a position that there was a motion to dismiss and that is simply not the case. The litigation is currently still very much in effect. Of course SD/LB does not want to waste state resources if the WOW Org is 4 or 5 years away from filing plans.

Fundamentally, the route along the frontage does not make sense and the WOW Org would be well served to focus on one of the alternative routes that have been proposed. It would be less expensive, less intrusive and could be built more quickly than the route along the frontage. Tavern 27 has even offered land for a welcome center and parking.

Just my 2 cents.

Jetskier

:cool:

[joey2665]

Not the case....

The WOW Org has been saying that they would be filing plans by the fall for Phase III. Now they are saying that it might be 4 or 5 years before they file plans. That is what they told DOT. The litigation was filed based upon the view that the WOW Org would imminently be filing plans with the city - that is what they publicly said.

DOT had to respond to the SD/LB petition by 8/11/17 and they requested an extension of 30 days. SD/LB agreed to this extension. DOT's concern is whether the action is premature since now the WOW Org is saying that it is going to be years (a different story than a few months ago). So, fundamentally no action has been taken by either side. SD/LB have the right to proceed to court and DOT has the right to determine whether they want to settle this by not granting permission to the WOW Org. If the litigation is delayed, it is just that. It will be simply be put aside until things progress...if that is the decision. The basis of the litigation stands.

It is clear that the article in the Laconia Daily Sun was focusing on a position that there was a motion to dismiss and that is simply not the case. The litigation is currently still very much in effect. Of course SD/LB does not want to waste state resources if the WOW Org is 4 or 5 years away from filing plans.

Fundamentally, the route along the frontage does not make sense and the WOW Org would be well served to focus on one of the alternative routes that have been proposed. It would be less expensive, less intrusive and could be built more quickly than the route along the frontage. Tavern 27 has even offered land for a welcome center and parking.

Just my 2 cents.

Jetskier

:cool:

You are forgetting one key item. If the trail is re routed away from the railroad ROW then the federal funding disappears.

[jetskier]

You are forgetting one key item. If the trail is re routed away from the railroad ROW then the federal funding disappears.
Not at all....


The cost to build the trail along the frontage will be much much higher than any of the the alternate routes.
With the current administration, money for secondary transportation infrastructure is being redirected to primary transportation infrastructure and it is unlikely that it will be as available in the past.


So, let's look at Phase II economics:

$400k came from the of Laconia (beautification fund)
$500k came from federal grants
$100k came from fund raising

Phase III is purported to cost $10M (my analysis with bridges etc is actually more like $15M to $20M).

The city of Laconia (I am told) does not have money to donate with all the other projects and commitments. So, that would mean:

$4M federal grant (pro rata, if available)
$6M - $16M to be raised

If the trail goes along one of the alternate routes the cost is only a fraction as there are no bridges to build, fences to separate the train from the pedestrians, trestle bridge issues etc... The route along the frontage is fraught with issues and associated costs...

Jetskier :cool:

[joey2665]

Sorry I completely disagree. The alternative plans do not eliminate all the bridges only one and no matter the route the federal funding is absolutely needed. All of the routes contain many obstacles it is certainly not as easy as your making it sound.


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[Outdoorsman]

Fundamentally, the route along the frontage does not make sense and the WOW Org would be well served to focus on one of the alternative routes that have been proposed. It would be less expensive, less intrusive and could be built more quickly than the route along the frontage. Tavern 27 has even offered land for a welcome center and parking.

Just my 2 cents.

Jetskier

:cool:

It is always nice to see how GREEDY people think. You do NOT own the state ROW.

Go bully some other state/city/town

[beantownbaby]

^ haters gonna hate

[jetskier]

Sorry I completely disagree. The alternative plans do not eliminate all the bridges only one and no matter the route the federal funding is absolutely needed. All of the routes contain many obstacles it is certainly not as easy as your making it sound.


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Actually, there are two to three bridges of consequence on the frontage route. There is a small one at SD, which is not of significant interest. The two big ones are Chattle Cove and Pickerel Cove. The required bridges would be approximately 1,000 ft and 800 ft in length....and how do you deal with the trestle at the Weirs? There is no room for a train and a trail there.

I have been on the snowmobile trails through the woods and reviewed the maps....nothing onerous.

Jetskier :cool:

[joey2665]

Jetskier your views are extremely clouded by the fact that you are a south down resident and do not want the trail through the community. Conveniently forgetting the fact that the trail and ROW were all agreed to in the original community plan. Yes I am a former Long Bay resident, yes as long as it is constructed properly and is esthetically pleasing I am all for the trail and finally yes I do currently have ownership interest is south down property. It is also my opinion that long term the trail will have a substantial positive impact not only Laconia but all the communities along the trail.

[jetskier]

Jetskier your views are extremely clouded by the fact that you are a south down resident and do not want the trail through the community. Conveniently forgetting the fact that the trail and ROW were all agreed to in the original community plan. Yes I am a former Long Bay resident, yes as long as it is constructed properly and is esthetically pleasing I am all for the trail and finally yes I do currently have ownership interest is south down property. It is also my opinion that long term the trail will have a substantial positive impact not only Laconia but all the communities along the trail.


I think that this discussion has reached larger heads...I am just presenting the facts. I have no control over what the WOW Org decides to do...and you now live in Meredith Bay not South Down. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I would suggest that we simply leave it at that.

Jetskier :cool:

[Paugus]

Not at all....

So, let's look at Phase II economics:

$400k came from the of Laconia (beautification fund)
$500k came from federal grants
$100k came from fund raising

Jetskier :cool:

Thank you for providing us with these facts, Jetskier. I remember reading about NH CDFA tax credits (https://patch.com/new-hampshire/concord-nh/new-hampshire-nonprofits-get-6m-for-community-development), Downtown Tax Increment Financing funding (http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx/local-news/72294-tif-recommendations-to-city-council) and private fundraising, but not anything about a beautification fund and federal grants.

Could this $400,000 in beautification money from Laconia and $500,000 in federal grant money you mention be reserved for Phase 3 and the pending lawsuit?

[jetskier]

Thank you for providing us with these facts, Jetskier. I remember reading about NH CDFA tax credits (https://patch.com/new-hampshire/concord-nh/new-hampshire-nonprofits-get-6m-for-community-development), Downtown Tax Increment Financing funding (http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx/local-news/72294-tif-recommendations-to-city-council) and private fundraising, but not anything about a beautification fund and federal grants.

Could this $400,000 in beautification money from Laconia and $500,000 in federal grant money you mention be reserved for Phase 3 and the pending lawsuit?

Hi Paugus,

My understanding is that the $400k donated by the city came from the TIF loans (you have a link in your email which describes the $400k for phase II). I have been told that the money was placed in the budget under "beautification" of down town which is consistent with the projects listed in the linked article. I have talked to a couple of teachers who are upset about the expenditure based upon the lack of money for teacher's salaries; however, I don't know that the money would have been able to be reallocated to other purposes. It is a loan and has to be paid back by the city, so at some level, it affects the city budget as a debt service....read not free money.

The $500k came from a federal grant...All of the money was spent on Phase II (total construction cost of $1M). The federal grant is essentially free money. Private fundraising provided $100k of the costs. The WOW Org is a 501c nonprofit and their financials are public record. Their EIN number is 45-0509781 if you want to look at 990s or other records.

Hope this helps.

Jetskier :cool:

[Paugus]

The $500k came from a federal grant...All of the money was spent on Phase II (total construction cost of $1M). The federal grant is essentially free money. Private fundraising provided $100k of the costs. The WOW Org is a 501c nonprofit and their financials are public record. Their EIN number is 45-0509781 if you want to look at 990s or other records.

Hope this helps.

Jetskier :cool:

With all due respect, Jetskier, I like to be able to cite my facts and I haven't been able to track down info anywhere on this $500,000 federal grant you talk about. Will you please link the source so that we can all learn more about this type of federal funding the WOW Trail used? All of the info I can find lists the city TIF funds, NH CDFA tax credits, and private funding. Thanks in advance. Sorry to be a pain.

[jetskier]

With all due respect, Jetskier, I like to be able to cite my facts and I haven't been able to track down info anywhere on this $500,000 federal grant you talk about. Will you please link the source so that we can all learn more about this type of federal funding the WOW Trail used? All of the info I can find lists the city TIF funds, NH CDFA tax credits, and private funding. Thanks in advance. Sorry to be a pain.

Hi Paugus,

Look at line #3 of the 2015 balance sheet (attached) is for Phase II. There was a grant of about $61k for Phase I. The grant number is H33C22A000349 and you can find information at this link:

https://www.usaspending.gov/Pages/AdvancedSearch.aspx?k=WOW%20Trail

Incidentally, you are by no means a pain...nice to have a factual interaction. :D

Jetskier :cool:

[Paugus]

Hi Paugus,

Look at line #3 of the 2015 balance sheet (attached) is for Phase II. There was a grant of about $61k for Phase I. The grant number is H33C22A000349 and you can find information at this link:

https://www.usaspending.gov/Pages/AdvancedSearch.aspx?k=WOW%20Trail

Incidentally, you are by no means a pain...nice to have a factual interaction. :D

Jetskier :cool:

Jetskier, Thanks for the link but that grant number you provided (H33C22A000349) and all of the others listed on that usaspending.gov link are for Phase 1.
"Project Description
LACONIA; WOW TRAIL PH 1; CONSTRUCT 7040' (Segments 7-10) SHARED USE PATH IN RR CORRIDOR FROM MAIN ST TO ELM ST; [04-28TE]"

As I recall, Phase 1 was built in 2010, which makes sense given the dates of the federal grants your link mentions. I still can't find anything about a federal grant for Phase 2.

[jetskier]

Jetskier, Thanks for the link but that grant number you provided (H33C22A000349) and all of the others listed on that usaspending.gov link are for Phase 1.
"Project Description
LACONIA; WOW TRAIL PH 1; CONSTRUCT 7040' (Segments 7-10) SHARED USE PATH IN RR CORRIDOR FROM MAIN ST TO ELM ST; [04-28TE]"

As I recall, Phase 1 was built in 2010, which makes sense given the dates of the federal grants your link mentions. I still can't find anything about a federal grant for Phase 2.

The grant was given during the Phase I period and covers both phases. The Phase I draw down was $61k which is in the WOW Org financials. The Phase II draw down was $500k (2015 financials). That is why I posted the 2015 financials.

Jetskier :cool:

[Paugus]

Anyone else see this?

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/special-sections/columns/107240-rusty-mclear-let-s-explore-the-best-use-of-the-state-owned-railroad-right-of-way-in-the-lakes-region

[Major]

Anyone else see this?

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/special-sections/columns/107240-rusty-mclear-let-s-explore-the-best-use-of-the-state-owned-railroad-right-of-way-in-the-lakes-region

Yes. He wants to purchase the Hobo Railroad and shut it down in favor of the WOW trail. You notice that he didn't come right out and say this. I had a laugh out loud moment when I read the sentence about the "transportation corridor." Yeah, like people from Laconia and Weirs are going to take the WOW trail to conduct business in Meredith! What a joke. Like I said, I'd rather he come right out and state his intentions, rather than obfuscate it under the guise of let's study the matter.

[BroadHopper]

Anyone else see this?

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/special-sections/columns/107240-rusty-mclear-let-s-explore-the-best-use-of-the-state-owned-railroad-right-of-way-in-the-lakes-region

So South Down/Long Bay folks are going to boycott McLear's business?

[Major]

So South Down/Long Bay folks are going to boycott McLear's business?

Since most of us own homes in SD/LB, we wouldn't have the need to stay at Mr. MeLear's hotels. Personally speaking, I don't go to Patrick's.

[Paugus]

It's unfortunate that SD/LB had to pay legal fees for this lawsuit that their attorney now says is premature. Why didn't someone check to see if the WOW Trail filed formal plans before paying an attorney to file a lawsuit?

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx/local-news/108520-lawsuit-over-wow-trail-withdrawn-as-premature

[Major]

It's unfortunate that SD/LB had to pay legal fees for this lawsuit that their attorney now says is premature. Why didn't someone check to see if the WOW Trail filed formal plans before paying an attorney to file a lawsuit?

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx/local-news/108520-lawsuit-over-wow-trail-withdrawn-as-premature

There was a lot of activity by the organizers of the WOW Trail that would lead reasonable people to believe that the submission of a plan was imminent. Only through a deposition of the WOW Trail representative was it learned that the organizers weren't close to implementing Phase III. This is NOT a big deal. Lawsuits are routinely filed and withdrawn for a variety of reasons. The present lawsuit was withdrawn without prejudice, which means that SD/LB can re-file at any time. There isn't a lot of waste, since the lawsuit is teed up and ready to file at a moment's notice. Short money in the long run.

As an aside, I was happy to read that there is little or no money for Phase III. It's going to take a lot of money to implement, so this is good news for those of us who do not want to see Phase III constructed.